Sarah Silverman (2:13)

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Sam Brigger (3:10)

I'm Sam Brigger. Terry has our first interview. I'll let her introduce it.

Cole Escola (3:15)

I'm happy to say that comic writer and actor Sarah Silverman is back for a return visit. Her stand up comedy is always original, brave and funny, whether it's talking about sex, abortion, being Jewish, racism or just daily life. She's willing to take risks to make a point and and make it funny. She regrets a few jokes she told in the past and later apologized for them. She has a new surprising comedy special which I'll tell you about in a moment. But first, more about Sarah. She was a writer and featured performer for one season on Saturday Night Live. She played a writer on the Larry Sanders show. From 2007 to 2010, she starred in the series the Sarah Silverman program. From 2017 to 2019, she hosted the Hulu series I Love youe America in which she had conversations to help her understand people she did necessarily agree with. She's been in several movies and she's a regular on the animated series Bob's Burgers. She recently roasted her friend Conan o' Brien at the Kennedy center ceremony at which he was awarded the Mark Twain Prize for American Humor. Her memoir the Bedwetter was adapted into an Off Broadway musical. It was recently reworked, played at the Arena Stage in Washington, D.C. and she's hoping it will move to Broadway. Now she has her fifth comedy special. It's called Post Mortem. Toward the beginning of the special, she's talking about sexual fantasies and sex talk, not surprising territory for her. And then she quietly makes an abrupt turn to this oh, my dad and.

Sarah Silverman (4:47)

My stepmom Janice both died last May, nine days apart. And oh, that one needs work. But they really did. And I was really close with both of them and my dad was my best friend and they both gave me so much and most recently, about an hour of new material. So let's do this.

Cole Escola (5:16)

Sarah Silverman, welcome back to FRESH air. I think this is a very meaningful and funny special and I'm grateful that you did it.

Sarah Silverman (5:23)

Thank you.

Cole Escola (5:24)

Sarah, I don't remember you ever doing anything as emotional as this new special. What made you think about doing a special about your parents death?

Sarah Silverman (5:36)

Oh, well, it wasn't something that I sat and thought about and decided it was my last special was coming out as they were dying. And so after they passed and I started doing standup again, I was at zero again, which is where I'm at right now. So the only material was what was going on in my life, which was I remember going to Largo, the club out here that I work at. And I had come straight from cleaning out their apartment with my sisters. And so that was just what I was talking about. And I had spoken at my dad's eulogy, and of course, there were a lot of funny things in there. Cause he was hilarious. So I kind of. That was the starting point for starting over again with my standup. And it just grew and grew and built from there.

Cole Escola (6:34)

Did you use anything from the eulogy in the comedy special?

Sarah Silverman (6:37)

Oh, yeah.

Cole Escola (6:38)

Did you tell the Jeff Ross story in the eulogy?

Sarah Silverman (6:41)

Probably. Probably, yeah.

Cole Escola (6:43)

Would you tell me?

Sarah Silverman (6:44)

I think all the funny stories about. Oh, you know, people came to say goodbye as my dad was dying. And Jeff Ross, who's, of course, the hilarious roastmaster general, he was very close with my parents. And he came in, and he's comfortable with this stuff. He's very comfortable with. There was no awkwardness with him walking into my dad's bedroom as he was dying. And he said, schleppy. Everyone called my dad Schleppie since before I was born. And he said, schleppie, I got bad news for you. I don't think you can be my emergency contact anymore.

Cole Escola (7:26)

And then what'd your father say?

Sarah Silverman (7:28)

He said, I think I should. He laughed, you know, and it was so sweet. And I tell that story in the special, and miraculously. Cause it's not like I was shooting video a lot on my phone, but I had videoed it from my phone when he walked in, just, you know. Cause I knew he'd be excited to see Jeff and captured that. So. You know, the thing I love about the special, one thing I love is the credits. You know, if you keep the sound on and watch through the credits, there's a lot of Easter eggs. And you see that video. And he even says a joke beyond that, you know, that they are talking and laughing, and it's so sweet, you know, it's just so sweet.

Cole Escola (8:11)

There's great photos of your parents in there, too, and of your sisters. Yeah. So the thing about giving a eulogy, it's like you really want to do it, and at the same time, it feels like. Well, it must have felt for you, like you were doing a comedy Special or putting on a show when maybe you just wanted to grieve. On the other hand, it gives you a chance to, like, live in the memory of the person or people that you lost. And then you wonder if you can get through it without totally breaking up and weeping.

Sarah Silverman (8:41)

Yeah. Yeah. There was so much time for sobbing in tears while they were dying. It was just so hard. And, you know, I have three sisters and nieces and nephews. You know, we really shared the burden of it all and were able to go through it together. You know, so many people, as I toured the country, you know, would say I was the only. I'm the only child, and I realize how lucky I am. And of course, speaking at a funeral is. But there's. I always find funerals so joyful because. Well, I mean, first of all, most of them are for comedians. But my parents were so funny and such characters and loved to laugh. You know, it was on their tombstone. You know, they were kind of buried together, and they have one tombstone. And my sister Susan, who's a rabbi, thought of what we wrote at the top, which was, you know, Janice and Donald, who love to laugh, you know, and so it's. You know, I feel like funerals and Shivas can be so joyful, you know, and sharing all those stories, it's that. It's when you realize those stories are finite, you know, that it gets sad again. And you. You know, like, this whole tour was so cathartic, you know, in that way. But I remember crying at my mom's when my mom died 10 years ago.

Cole Escola (10:12)

Cause Janice is your stepmother. She's the one who died nine years apart from your f. Yeah, it's.

Sarah Silverman (10:18)

You know, I mean, all that stuff. And we were talking before this a little bit. Just, you know, there's. There's kind of so much joy and relief in the funeral and thereafter. Cause you're all together with the people who love this person, and you're sharing stories. And then it's when you get back into normal life and you're, like, in line at the grocery store that you just kind of crumble into tears, you know, like, just saying the words, like, well, my mom died. You know, like, it's hard to say. The tour was interesting. Cause the first half of it was I dreaded going on stage. I dreaded sledging through all of this. Because I hadn't figured it out totally yet. I hadn't found all the laughs. There was a lot of kind of. I mean, just this is kind of story jargon, but, like, laying pipe to be able to tell the whole picture, but not knowing what goes where, it was hard, you know, and it hurt more. And then as I figured it out, how to tell the story and how to digress and how to keep it funny and moving. I mean, moving along, you know? But it became really a joy to go out, like, where I couldn't wait to tell this new crowd about these people.

Cole Escola (11:41)

You were with your father and stepmother when she was diagnosed with stage four pancreatic cancer. So I want to play a clip from your special post mortem about your father's reaction.

Sarah Silverman (11:53)

Well, let me just say, we weren't with them. They were in Florida at the time. But what we would do is whenever they would go to the doctor, once they got older, we would have them record it on their voice memo app on their phone and post it to our family WhatsApp chain so that we could listen to and make sure everything was being taken care of. And that's how we heard the appointment where she was diagnosed.

Cole Escola (12:18)

Okay, so this clip starts with you talking about Janice's reaction, your stepmother's reaction to the news and what she has to say to the doctor, their individual.

Sarah Silverman (12:31)

Reactions to this news. I'm still listening, you know, And Janice is just. Her reaction is so Janice, you know, she just goes, well, I'll just do everything you tell me, and I'll just do every single thing you say, and I'll fight it. And it was just so her. And then my dad's reaction was the craziest thing I've ever heard in my entire life. I'm not kidding. You just hear him go, I'm alone. Then he goes, I'm a widow. I know my mother Bethann is out there somewhere going, it's widower. But, mom, it was so crazy. I'm the designated dad whisperer. And I was tasked with calling him, and I had to say, dad, you cannot talk that way in front of your alive wife. You have to pull your together, okay? This isn't about you. This is about Janice. You. You have to take care of Janice. You have to focus. You can't, like, fall down right now. And he said, I know, I know. And then he started sobbing, and I've really never heard him do that, you know? And he goes, I just. I don't want to be in a world without my Janice. I just don't want to be here without her. And I just. I wanted to console him, and I looked for something to say, and I said, well, you know, statistically, you won't. And I mean, I didn't know that was gonna come true, obviously. This is not a time to say I told you so or anything, by the way. All true. I mean, it's like the truest special. And I don't even find that appealing to say. Like everything I say is completely true, you know, but it's, and obviously there are some just pure jokes in there. But my family, you know, they, they always know to take everything with a grain of salt, but they were just like, everything you said really happened. It's so crazy.

Sam Brigger (15:08)

We're listening to Terry's interview with Sarah Silverman. Her new comedy special Postmortem is streaming on Netflix. We'll hear more of their conversation after a short break. I'm Sam Brigger and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

Sarah Silverman (15:20)

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Cole Escola (16:12)

So your father ran or owned a discount women's clothing store called Crazy Sophie's Outlet. He did his own TV commercials. I'm not sure if.

Sarah Silverman (16:25)

Radio ads.

Cole Escola (16:25)

Radio ads. Okay, I'm not sure if I asked you this before, but can you describe the clothes that he sold?

Sarah Silverman (16:32)

Um, he actually originally had a store that was his father's called Junior Deb and Varsity Shop. And he took that over. He actually made it a chain and it had like Levi's and, you know, kind of cool clothes at the time. But it originated, it was more like sold Brownie and Cub Scout uniforms and all the stuff that you might need for school and clothes. And then that store closed and he opened Crazy Sophie's Factory Outlet. And that was his store and it had kind of a little more off brand. He had some designer stuff. He would list all the brands, like in a garbled New England accent, you know, radio ad, like, you know, Unicorn, Jabot, Z Cavarici you know, like. I don't know. He didn't have, like, kind of the big brands like Levi's, but he had, you know, maybe if you remember some of those brands. I do, but. And it was, you know, just kind of discount women's clothing.

Unnamed Character (17:35)

I don't know.

Cole Escola (17:36)

Did he bring him clothes that he expected you to wear, but you didn't want to wear them?

Sarah Silverman (17:41)

No, we wore it. We wore whatever. We weren't big clothes people. I mean. Yeah, I had the. When he had the other store, it was like, he had great clothes. I remember all, you know, all the fads, the. Like, Izod over another Izod. It was a big thing at one point. Or knickers. I had, like, gray corduroy knickers and a coral sweater. And I remember saying to my mom, take a picture of this. This is what I'm gonna wear at my first New York City audition. You know, I was in 8th GR. Like, I was gonna be an adult and wear that outfit. You know, you just think, oh, this is forever.

Cole Escola (18:17)

Did he expect you to work in the store?

Sarah Silverman (18:20)

I didn't work in the store. My older sisters did. My sisters Susan and Laura did, and Jodine and I did not. We were younger, but I do remember we went to. Jodine and I, they had us go to Hebrew school for one year in third grade. I was in third grade. She was in fourth grade. And we didn't know from this, you know, we were not very Jewish. You know, as Susie said, who's a rabbi now. You know, we just thought being Jewish meant being a Democrat because that's how we were different in New Hampshire, you know. But.

Cole Escola (18:58)

Yeah. You were the only Jewish family where you grew up.

Sarah Silverman (19:01)

Yeah, pretty much in Bedford, in Manchester, the big city. There were a couple temples, and we went to. We hated it. We went to Hebrew school for one year. And it was in Manchester, where my dad's store at the time was. And we would have to walk from Hebrew school after school to my dad's store. And we were instructed not to eat anything, you know, or we'll ruin our dinner. And one day, we pooled our money together, and we bought a large McDonald's fries and wolfed it down and went to the. Got to the store. This is, I swear to God, a true story. And he looks at us and he goes, you had French fries? And we just couldn't believe it. We were like, what? How do you know? And you're not gonna believe this, Terry. How he knew. Salt in our mustaches.

Cole Escola (19:56)

It could have Been a soft pretzel.

Sarah Silverman (20:00)

True. We probably had that unmistakable McDonald's smell. Delicious.

Cole Escola (20:04)

Oh, I know, I know the smell you mean. Yeah. Your father wanted to be a writer. Did you ever read anything he wrote?

Sarah Silverman (20:14)

Oh, I feel so guilty. I started reading a few of them. He had a few self published novels and bless my niece Eliza, who read every single one of them and it meant the world to him and I don't know. And you know, my other sister's the same. I don't know what that block was because of course we'd do anything for him and we wanted to support him and we wanted him to feel loved all the time. But it was really hard for us to read them. They were, you know, he's our dad and this is. I'm such a hypocrite as the person that I am in the shows he sat through of mine. But, you know, there was like sex scenes and sexuality and you know, he was a sexual being. But it was just gross. We just thought it was gross and we just couldn't. And I feel so guilty about. That's one thing I feel pretty guilty about. But I didn't.

Cole Escola (21:16)

So he wanted to be a writer, but instead had a factory outlet women's clothing store. But when you were in college, after one year at nyu, I guess he knew you wanted to be a comic and perform. He offered to pay for rooms and board for you for three years if you wanted to drop out of college.

Sarah Silverman (21:38)

Yeah.

Cole Escola (21:38)

Did he feel bad that he gave up his dream and not want you to give up yours?

Sarah Silverman (21:43)

That could be it. Maybe. I think he, you know, I will say as a rare story for a comic, my parents totally believed in me, you know, I was a good student kid. Anyway, I was anal. I did my homework in, you know, literal and figurative ways. So they weren't. I wasn't a slacker, you know, I wanted to be a comic. I was out every night, you know. And so my first year of college I had all my classes and I was a drama major and I. @ NYU and I think I felt, well, one, I went to class all day and then I worked passing out flyers for a comedy club in New York City that was called the Boston Comedy Club. It was in New York City. And I would pass out flyers every day from 4pm to 2am and then, you know, my first class would be in midtown at like 8am and I was falling asleep during my classes and teachers were getting mad and I was horrified. This is not me at all. You know, I, you know, the thought That I would be sleeping in class, I would pinch, you know, it was very reminiscent of being at sleepovers as a bedwetter. I would pinch myself to stay awake. I just couldn't fight it. And I felt so guilty. Also, because NYU is so expensive. I had a small scholarship. You know, at the time wasn't that small, but today would sound very small. I had $1,500 per semester, and my dad paid the rest. And I felt so guilty, and they gave me no guilt about it, but that I'm this drama major, that I, you know, I had academic classes, but mostly it was voice and movement and Dr. I just thought, geez, that's so much money. And I took a year off. And when I was returning, about three weeks before I was gonna return, I had changed to the Arts and Sciences school because I really. I knew I wanted to be a comedian. I wanted to be an actor, but I knew I could take an acting class. I wanted to if I was gonna be in college. I wanted academics. I wanted information I could draw on, you know, and. But about three weeks before I started back, and I had been doing standup, and I think I had passed at my first club by then when I was 19. And my dad called and said, listen, I believe in you. I believe that what you're gonna do, you don't need a diploma. And if you want to drop out, I will pay your rent and utilities for the next three years as if it were your sophomore, junior, senior year. So that saves him a ton of money, right? I think my rent was $350. It moved up to $450 at one point. And, you know, I had roommates and everything, and he wasn't paying. He didn't have to pay for college anymore. And it really worked out. You know, by the time I would have graduated college, I was a writer at Saturday Night Live and needed money from my parents. And, you know, I was independent, financially independent from then on.

Cole Escola (25:09)

Sarah Silverman, it's been such a pleasure to talk with you again. And, you know, I'm sorry about the loss of your parents.

Sarah Silverman (25:15)

Thank you.

Cole Escola (25:16)

Thank you. So be well and thank you.

Sarah Silverman (25:19)

Oh, man. Thank you.

Sam Brigger (25:21)

Sarah Silverman's new comedy Special Post Mortem is streaming on Netflix. She spoke with Terry Gross, our rock critic. Ken Tucker has been listening to new music, looking for something that's not just entertainment. He thinks he's found it in two new albums by musicians who are both influenced by country and folk music, but who otherwise could not be more a relative newcomer. 22 year old Ken Pomeroy and a relatively old pro, 92 year old Willie Nelson. Here's his review of Pomeroy's cruel joke and Nelson's oh what a Beautiful World, an album of covers of songs by Rodney Crowell. Let's start with Ken Pomeroy.

Sarah Silverman (25:59)

Gray skies, birds that don't fly Hoping for a better life Deer stealing grass from the hills Showing all the feelings you hide.

Sam Brigger (26:17)

It'S easy to adopt the attitude that pop music is primarily entertainment, a pleasant distraction from whatever's going on in your life or in the world around you. Sometimes, however, you come across songs and performers who offer more than entertainment. They provide comfort, nourishment, reassurance. One of these artists is ken Pomeroy, the 22 year old woman whose voice began this review. Pomeroy has just released an album called Cruel Joke. She's from Oklahoma, a Cherokee Native American, and her songs about farms and cowboys, sung with an acoustic country twang, mark her as one smart high plains drifter.

Sarah Silverman (27:02)

Broke you like a mirror into pieces A few of me staring back in disbelief Honey I swear I didn't mean to Never love someone like I loved.

Cole Escola (27:28)

You.

Sarah Silverman (27:31)

Playing who Care boy put your hand in mine I get lost for days and you're green.

Sam Brigger (27:46)

In that song Flannel Cowboy Pomeroy seeks forgiveness from someone she wronged in no small part because she believes they were meant to be together. It's typical of her approach on this album, which is full of complex emotions and urgent desires. Her narrators don't want to become isolated. They're not loners. They hope to quell fears through relationships that only strengthen during difficult times.

Sarah Silverman (28:11)

You're talking too loud they can hear you way up in the sky.

Cole Escola (28:20)

With.

Sarah Silverman (28:20)

The days getting darker Coin.

Unnamed Character (28:32)

Time drags on and there's nothing new to say.

Sarah Silverman (28:40)

My mother keeps, keeps lying saying there's no other way Send me back to where I was before I knew how.

Unnamed Character (29:00)

This felt.

Sarah Silverman (29:04)

Take me for what I am no more the devil siding in the box the devil siding in the.

Sam Brigger (29:19)

Bible Belt I like the way Pomeroy's plain spoken verses open up dialogues with the listener. The conversational tone is something Willie Nelson perfected decades ago. It's what's made him perhaps the most intimate pop music interpreter since Frank Sinatra. These days, age has shortened his breath and thinned out the timbre of his voice, but it's still a quiet miracle that draws you in close, as on his version of Rodney Kral's song what Kind of Love.

Sarah Silverman (29:54)

I'll give you the best I can give you baby, that's all I can give and we'll live it the best we can live it baby, as long as we live what kind of love never turns you down? What kind of love lifts you off the ground Turns your life around? What kind of love makes you go out in the wind and the driving rail? What kind of love runs through your heart With a pleasure so close to pain? What kind of love Only this love I have.

Sam Brigger (30:49)

In the past Nelson has recorded other album long salutes to some of his favorite songwriters and singers such as Ray Price and Roger Miller and Lefty Frizzell. This one feels a little different. The best moments here are when he takes hold of some of Rodney Krall's more recent songs. Not the hits. These are reflective, contemplative compositions. Like Ken Pomeroy's work. It's about appreciating people and rekindling connections.

Sarah Silverman (31:20)

Sometimes I think about leaving as if I had someplace to go.

Unnamed Character (31:33)

I might.

Sarah Silverman (31:34)

Even crank up the engine.

Sam Brigger (31:39)

I roll.

Sarah Silverman (31:40)

Down the street just for show Nobody said it was easy but that doesn't mean it ain't right I don't wanna know nobody else with me when it comes time to call it a night so far I've kept every promise and this I'll continue to do I'll love you like nobody's business I wouldn't be me without you.

Sam Brigger (32:37)

There's a 70 year age difference between Ken Pomeroy and Willie Nelson, but I hear a similarity in their to resist despair, to get us to look up from our phones and look into someone's eyes. They're both making beautiful music for tumultuous times. Ken Tucker reviewed two new albums, Willie Nelson's oh what a Beautiful World and Ken Pomeroy's Cruel Joke. Coming up, we hear from Cola Scola, creator of the Broadway show oh Mary. The show imagines Mary Todd Lincoln as a drunk who dreams about returning to her only true love, cabaret. I'm Sam Brigger and this is Fresh.

Sarah Silverman (33:14)

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Unnamed Character (33:18)

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Sarah Silverman (33:21)

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Sarah Silverman (34:20)

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Sam Brigger (34:36)

Broadway comedy O Mary is nominated for five Tony Awards, including Best Play and Best Leading Actor in a Play. The comedy follows a very fictionalized, intentionally improbable version of First Lady Mary Todd Lyn Lincoln in the time leading to her husband's assassination. Our guest today, Cola Scola, wrote the play and stars as Mary. They spoke with Fresh Air's Anne Marie Baldonado.

Terry Gross (35:00)

The New York Times calls the play O Mary Unhinged, so campy and so unexpected. They've also called it one of the best comedies in years. Those looking for a close to historically accurate version of Mary Todd Lincoln should definitely look elsewhere because this play is a reimagin based on very few facts. Here the first lady is depressed, sad, beside herself and constantly drinking. Not because of the Civil War or even the deaths of her children. She longs for her only true love, cabaret, and her husband, the President, will try anything to stop her.

Unnamed Character (35:41)

Just another ploy to keep me from drinking and tucked away in the drawing room where no one can see me.

Capella University (35:47)

Contrary to what your paranoia tells you, I'm not some evil mastermind conspiring to keep you miserable.

Unnamed Character (35:57)

When you keep me off the stage, you make the whole world miserable.

Capella University (36:00)

God, for God's sake, Mary, how would it look for the first lady of.

Sarah Silverman (36:04)

The United States to be flitting about.

Capella University (36:08)

The stage right now in the ruins of war?

Unnamed Character (36:12)

How would it look? Sensational.

Terry Gross (36:17)

That's Tony nominee Cola Scola as Mary and Tony nominee Conrad Ricamora as Abraham Lincoln. Cola's Cola first received rave reviews for O Mary when it premiered off Broadway in 2024 before transferring to Broadway. In addition to all the Tony nominations, the play was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in drama. Coaliscola first came up in the cabaret and alt comedy scenes of New York after moving to the city 20 years ago. They also gained a cult following through their online shorts. They have starred in shows including Search Party, Difficult People, and At Home with Amy Sedaris and have written for shows like Hacks, Z Way and the Other two. Cola Scola. Welcome to FRESH air.

Unnamed Character (37:05)

Thank you for having me. I couldn't have put it better myself. That is exactly who I am.

Terry Gross (37:10)

Okay, great. Well, do you remember when you first learned about Mary Todd Lincoln and what you lear about her or at least like what your early memories were of her or the president?

Unnamed Character (37:21)

She's one of those people that everyone just has sort of background knowledge of, you know, like Mrs. Claus or like, you know, toasters have two slots. It's just things you accept and those kinds of things and people are what interest me most because I guess comedy relies so much on expectation that if I know there's a shared expectation by the wide audience, then it's easier to subvert it.

Terry Gross (37:55)

Well, can you talk about how you first came up with the idea? I think it was in 2009.

Unnamed Character (38:01)

Yeah. I don't remember what sparked it. I just remember walking around Lincoln center and I had the thought, what if Abraham Lincoln's assassination wasn't such a bad thing for Mary Todd? And. And it was just an idea that tickled me so much. And originally in my mind it was the seed of an idea for like Mary's second chapter, like a sort of Nancy Meyers style divorcee rom com. What did Mary Todd Lincoln do after, you know, like she fully leaned into herself. And then, yeah, slowly, over 12 years, I kept having other little ideas that eventually added up to the play.

Terry Gross (38:55)

Well, you've said that this play is very personal.

Unnamed Character (38:58)

And I'll say it again, this play is very personal.

Terry Gross (39:01)

Well, you've said Mary is me.

Unnamed Character (39:04)

Yeah.

Terry Gross (39:04)

How is this play about you?

Unnamed Character (39:08)

This play is about a woman with a dream that no one around her understands. A dream that the whole world is telling her is stupid and doesn't make any sense. And I feel that way.

Terry Gross (39:27)

I want to unpack what it is about cabaret that Mary loves and maybe that you love too. Like what sets cabaret apart from other kinds of performing. There are some things that are maybe factual about cabaret. You know, it's intimate. There's interaction with the audience. It's about personal storytelling.

Sarah Silverman (39:48)

Yeah.

Unnamed Character (39:48)

It's about the story of the song rather than the singing mostly. And.

Terry Gross (39:53)

Yeah, well, like Mary, you are a well known cabaret singer and you came up through this downtown New York scene with people like Mary Bridget Everett and Murray Hill, who people might know from the HBO series, somebody, somewhere, among other things. Can you describe what that scene was like? This is the mid to late 2000s.

Unnamed Character (40:14)

Yeah. Yeah. So there was this monthly cabaret show called Our Hit Parade at Joe's Pub. And it was 10 different cabaret or musical or performance artists performing the top 10 Billboard songs of the month, doing their own interpretations of those songs. And it was a monthly show, usually, you know, like, over half of the same people and then a few, you know, special guests. And we did that every month for, like, three years. And I was a regular guest. And it's truly, like, I didn't go to school, but I feel like that's where I cut my teeth, so to speak, and learned how to perform and how to write for an audience.

Terry Gross (41:03)

Well, there's footage online of you performing at the last show in 2012, which was kind of a celebration of, you know, the show coming to an end. Would you mind if we played a little bit of your performance?

Unnamed Character (41:15)

I'll let you do that. Yeah.

Terry Gross (41:18)

Okay. Okay. Thanks.

Unnamed Character (41:20)

When I was three, my dad chased my mom and me and my little brother out of our trailer because he thought the government was after him. They weren't, but we ended up going to my grandmother's anyway. Actually, we made a pit stop at my mom's AA sponsor's house, but that's for a different show. And I remember when we got there, I was really scared and confused because I wasn't sure, are we living here now? And I remember going to my mom and. And telling her that I was really scared and afraid. And she gave me the best piece of advice that I've ever received. And she said, cole, go away. And 15 years later, I did. I moved here to New York City. I followed him. Yet that was seven years ago. And four years ago, I came on this stage and did my first Our Hit Parade. And I sang this song. Take a deep breath as I walk through the doors it's the morning of the very first day say hi to my friends who I ain't seen in a while Try and stay out of everybody's way it's my freshman year, and I'm gonna be here for the next four years in this town, hoping one of the senior boys will smile at me and say, you know, I haven't seen you around before. Cause when you're 15 and somebody tells you he loves you, you're gonna believe them.

Terry Gross (43:29)

That's Cola scola performing in 2012. I love that performance and the joy of you singing a Taylor Swift song. That's the Taylor Swift song 15 about being in high school.

Unnamed Character (43:41)

I. I listening to that, I wanted to jump out of a window.

Terry Gross (43:47)

That was 13 years ago. It's not your fault.

Unnamed Character (43:48)

It was. It was a long time ago. Look, I would have done that a lot differently now. And I would have done it differently knowing that other people would listen to it later.

Terry Gross (43:56)

Well, I will say that I would pay good money to hear you sing the Taylor Swift songbook, top to bottom, all the phases.

Unnamed Character (44:05)

I'll see you at Carnegie hall in a couple years.

Capella University (44:07)

Yes.

Terry Gross (44:09)

And that story that you tell on stage during your cabaret act, is that true? You were young. Do you have memories of that?

Unnamed Character (44:16)

I do have memories of that. And I remember being excited that we were going to my grandma's because I didn't like the trailer where we lived and I didn't like my father.

Terry Gross (44:26)

And you ended up living with your grandmother?

Unnamed Character (44:28)

Yeah, and my grandmother and I shared a bedroom, and she taught me how to read and. Yeah, yeah.

Terry Gross (44:35)

Well, you said that you loved to hear your grandmother's stories.

Unnamed Character (44:38)

Yeah, yeah.

Terry Gross (44:39)

What were some of your favorite stories that she would tell you?

Unnamed Character (44:44)

She told this story a lot about her 10th birthday when she found out her dad had a stroke and died working in some sort of mine in Canada. And then there was also a story about how she really couldn't see. Her eyesight was really bad, but her family couldn't afford glasses. But then one day, a doctor came to town and gave her a free pair of glasses. These aren't great stories. It was always the way that she told them and the details and the way she, you know, she disappeared into the story in the telling of it. Like, you know, we didn't have a lot of money. We didn't have a lot of money. And mom made $3 a month. $3 a month. Six kids and $3 a month. And just the seriousness. I mean, I'm laughing because I'm just now realizing it was a cabaret act. I never put that together. That was my first exposure to cabaret, was hearing my grandmother with Alzheimer's retell me stories about her childhood in Alberta, Canada.

Terry Gross (46:03)

Well, I read that you used to stay at home on Mondays because on Mondays your grandmother would have lunch with her friends and you really wanted to hang out with them.

Unnamed Character (46:12)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would go to lunch with them. I don't know why. My mom, I'm sure she knew. I mean, it was literally every Monday of second grade that I would say, I'm sick, I need to go to Grandma's. And we would go to this burger joint or the diner with my grandma Irene and her friends Ruby, Grace and Shirley.

Terry Gross (46:37)

In your comedy, you often do characters that are middle aged women like Mary and like these women that you're speaking of. Do you think your appreciation for women of that certain age sort of began with your grandmother and her friends?

Unnamed Character (46:51)

Undoubtedly. I wanted. I mean, I wanted to be with them. I wanted to be them. I just. They were. And they. Because they also loved me. They loved. I was so precocious. And they were always just shower. I mean, after my grandmother, her Alzheimer's got really bad and she had to move into a nursing home and the group of gals split up and all went there separate ways because of health issues. I started going to church by myself. I was like 11 years old because I needed that validation from older women. I needed someone brewing coffee for the group to look at me and say, well, aren't you just so polite? That was. That was life to me.

Terry Gross (47:49)

When did you find performing, I think your first play was when you were 11.

Unnamed Character (47:53)

That was my first professional acting job. But when I was, I think, five, we didn't have performing arts in our town, but there was this company called Missoula Children's Theater. And every year two adults from this theater company would come to town for one week. And in that one week, they would do auditions on Monday and the show was on Friday. And I just lived for that one week a year. But then, yeah, my first professional acting job was in a production of Grapes of Wrath. I played Winfield Joad, and it was in a town 30 miles away from Klatsk and I, where I grew up. And during that time, my grandmother lived in a nursing home. And it was much, much, much closer to the theater than where I lived. So some nights after rehearsals, I would stay over at her nursing home.

Terry Gross (48:59)

What was it like being a kid in the nursing home?

Unnamed Character (49:02)

Well, I wasn't sure that I was allowed to be there. Like, I knew I could visit. I was pretty sure I wasn't allowed to spend the night, but I did anyway. And it felt. It was weird. I was lying to so many adults just so that I could be in this play. I think I lied to my mom and I told her, like, oh, no, the play feeds us. And meanwhile, I wasn't eating because I knew if I said I need money for food, she would say, well, we can't do that. I'm sorry, you can't do this play. And, you know, I lied to the adults in the play saying, like, oh, yeah, no, I can stay with my grandma in the nursing home so I can be late at rehearsal and just 11 years old, trying to keep everyone in the dark about the fact that I was a child.

Terry Gross (49:56)

Well, you know, Grapes of Wrath, a serious play. But you ended up finding community there like an extended family almost.

Unnamed Character (50:03)

Yeah, yeah. This woman that played Rose of Sharon, her name was Susan, she bought me food on our meal breaks every day, and it was never an issue. I never asked her. She just. She saw what was going on, and she would buy me food, and then other actors would give me rides to my grandma's nursing home, and I was in heaven.

Terry Gross (50:31)

Now, you were in shows like you said you were in Fiddler on the Roof, Little Shop of Horrors, Les Miserables. Like, what kind of parts did you play?

Unnamed Character (50:40)

Well, because I was a, you know, for all intents and purposes at the time, a boy who could sing. I was always cast as, you know, like, the romantic male lead. Yeah. For the most part, I played these really boring parts that didn't speak to me or spark me at all. And sort of for that reason, I didn't pursue acting after high school. I didn't think that that's what I wanted to do.

Terry Gross (51:11)

So when you sort of pictured yourself as a performer in the future, it wasn't as an actor in plays?

Unnamed Character (51:18)

No. I didn't even picture myself as a performer. I just. I didn't know what I wanted to do yet, but I was like, oh, okay, so if I want to be an actor, I'm gonna have to go to school and learn how to move less gay and talk less gay and play these boring boy parts. And I was like, I don't think. I don't think I want to do that.

Terry Gross (51:42)

Well, you've said that you always associated, quote, unquote, theater with pretending to be straight.

Unnamed Character (51:47)

Yes.

Terry Gross (51:48)

That's what you're talking about.

Unnamed Character (51:49)

Yeah. Yeah.

Terry Gross (51:49)

Even back then you felt that way.

Unnamed Character (51:51)

Yeah, especially back then. Now I don't at all. And I would play the stage manager in our town like a bitter, bitchy, old, jaded queen and not think nothing of it.

Terry Gross (52:07)

Well, I read that. In fact, go ahead.

Unnamed Character (52:09)

Someone please produce that. I would love to try that out.

Terry Gross (52:13)

Cole Escola, congratulations on the Tony nominations, and thank you so much for joining us.

Unnamed Character (52:19)

Thank you so much for having me.

Sam Brigger (52:21)

Cole Escola spoke with Fresh Air's Anne Marie Baldonado. Escola will play Mary Todd Lincoln until June 21st. Omar continues its Broadway run until September FRESH AIR Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. FRESH air's executive producer is Danny Miller. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm Sam Brigger.

Capella University (52:43)

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