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- [00:01]
Capella University
This message comes from Capella University. With Capella's Flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your schedule. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella. Edu.
- [00:17]
Terry Gross
From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with FRESH AIR Weekend.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Say get up and dance for the music.
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Terry Gross
Today, musician and documentary filmmaker Amir Kweslov Thompson is back to talk about his newest documentary on Sly Stone and his band the Family Stone. It's called Sly the Burden of Black Genius. Also, Sebastian Stan talks about his Oscar nominated portrayal of Donald Trump in the film the Apprentice. He plays Trump early in his career. The filmmakers received a cease and desist letter from Trump's lawyers and Trump called the filmmakers human scum.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Human scum. You know, our writer received a lot of death threats, a lot of anti Semitic remarks as a result of that usage of words.
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Terry Gross
Stan is originally from Romania, born during a communist dictatorship. That's coming up on FRESH AIR weekend.
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Capella University
This message comes from noom. Using psychology and biology to build personal meal plans to fit your lifestyle, taking into account dietary restrictions, medical issues and other personal needs. With daily lessons that are personalized to you and your goals. Noom's flexible program focuses on progress instead of perfection to help you build new habits for a healthier lifestyle. Sign up for your trial today@noom.com this message comes from NPR sponsor Saatva founder and CEO Ron Rutson shares the experience they hope to create in their viewing rooms.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
We want our customers to feel like.
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Questlove
They'Ve walked into a luxury hotel.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
That's what SAFA has been inspired by from the day that we started.
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Questlove
We take sleep very seriously.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
We believe it unlocks a superpower. If you get the right sleep on the right mattress, we believe we can provide that.
- [02:09]
Capella University
Save up to $600 through President's Day at saatva.com NPR this message comes from NPR sponsor Satva founder and CEO Ron Rutson shares the experience they hope to create in their viewing.
- [02:26]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
We want our customers to feel like they've walked into a luxury hotel. That's what Saatva has been inspired by. From the day that we started, we take sleep very seriously. We believe it unlocks a superpower. If you get the right sleep on the right mattress, we believe we can provide that.
- [02:41]
Capella University
Save up to $600 through President's Day at saatva.com NPR this message comes from NPR's sponsor, Shopify.
- [02:51]
Sebastian Stan
No idea where to sell? Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the Commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet's best converting checkout to help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your business to the next level today.
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Terry Gross
This is FRESH AIR Weekend. I'm Terry Gross. Today, Amir Kweslov Thompson is back to talk about the life and legacy of Sly Stone.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
But let me be myself again. Thank you. But let me be myself again.
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Terry Gross
Questlove's new documentary called Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius is about the impact of Sly Stone and his band Sly and the Family Stone on music and culture. Sly got his start as a DJ and record producer in the early 1960s, formed a multiracial band with his brother, sister and other musicians and went on to record hits like Everyday People, Dance to the Music, Family Affair and Stand. Their music influenced Prince, George Clinton and Funkadelic, the Ohio Players, Earth Wind and Fire and many hip hop artists. The film also covers the problems that came along with fame and drugs that took Sly down. Questlove is the co founder of the hip hop band the Roots, which is the house band for the Tonight show with Jimmy Fallon. If you feel as if you just heard him on our show, you did when we talked about his other new documentary focused on Saturday Night Live's Music Guests and Music Sketches over the past 50 years. That one's called Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music. So let's talk about your Sly documentary. I really love this film. I want to start with a song and it's their first big hit. It's Dance to the Music. It's so catchy. And I'd like you to point out what makes this song special in its moment, which was 1967 or 8.
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Questlove
This is 1968.
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Terry Gross
Okay, so what makes this song so special in its moment?
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Questlove
Sly will invent the Alphabet for which most of pop and R and B or black music will write from for, you know, the next 60 years. Like we're still writing from his dictionary to this day. And so, okay, we have a four minute song to make. How many micro songs can we have in this particular song? In other words, a typical Sly of the Family Stone song has a bunch of elements that will grab everybody. Like most songs will just have one specific hook. Like this is the chorus. This is my hook. Okay, here are my lyrics. Instead, Sly will Do a four bar part that's like earworm, you know, like, that'll grab you, and then he'll do another four bars that will grab someone else. So, you know, lyrically and melodic wise, his formula is also the world's funkiest nursery rhyme music. Look at Everyday People, his number one hit, Everyone Knows Everyday People. Everyday People is basically the schoolyard version. Like the lyrics of that song, the melody of that song is basically schoolyard taunting. Nyan nyan nyah nya nya nya nyah nya nyah nya nya nyah. There is a black one who doesn't like the. And. And his whole thing is like, if it can appeal to a kid, to a first grader, then melodically you have them. And rhythmically, his rhythm section. Gregarico and drums, and Larry Graham on bass, specifically Larry Graham's right thumb are probably the two most revolutionary aspects of Sly's music. And that's because Larry Graham is a bass player who used to play in bands without a drummer. So as a result, he would have to hit his bass in a very specific way so that you could feel the rhythm because there's no drummer there. And of course, once he's in the Sly system, he invents kind of a thumping, plucking thing, which I guess most of your listeners would probably be familiar with. The way that the Seinfeld theme sounds or the way that Flea plays in the Red Eyed Chili Peppers, like with his thumb. Larry Graham from Sly and the Family Stone, AKA Drake's uncle.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Oh, really?
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Terry Gross
Literally, yeah.
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Questlove
Larry Graham is. Well, you know, Drake's name is Aubrey Graham. Drake's father is Larry Graham's brother. But yeah, he revolutionized a way to play bass. And so, I mean, pretty much he just invented the idea of like ear candy. Like a whole bunch of micro ideas inside of one three minute song. And that's the genius of Sly Stone.
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Terry Gross
All right, thank you for that. Let's hear Dance to the Music.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Say cheer up and dance to the music. Jump, laugh and dance to the music. All we need is a drama for people who only need a beat. Yeah. I'm gonna add a little gut and make it easy to move your feet.
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Terry Gross
So that the dancer just won't hide.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
You might like to hear my organ. I sit right now, right now. Cynthia. Jerry, if I could have Hear the horns blow. Cynthia on the throne. Yeah. Listen to me, Cynthia. Derek got a message that said all the squares. Yay.
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Terry Gross
So that was Sly and The Family Stones 1968 hit Dance to the Music. And the drumming is so infectious. It's hard not to move when you hear that. And it's not fancy.
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Questlove
So what people don't know is that Sly basically considered Dance to the Music like his sellout song. Sly had released this really intelligent debut album called A Whole New Thing, which is probably my favorite album of its entire canon. But it was way too wordy, way too smart, way too nerdy, just so ahead of its time that only a certain few latched onto it. And the rejection of that album kind of depressed Sly. And his label said, look, you know, like, you're doing way too much. You gotta simplify it. People aren't as smart as you are. Like, instead of you being the smartest guy in the room, be a relatable guy in the room. Like, people just want to dance to the music. And kind of in a very bitter, scoffy way, like, he was like, all right, well, people want to dance to the music, fine. And so he did a very sarcastic thing. And so he's like, all right, well, people want to dance to the music, fine. I'm going to make a song and I'm going to teach them how to dance to my music. And essentially, Dance to the Music is an instructional introduction on who we are. Hey, I play the bass.
- [11:45]
Capella University
Do, do do do, do, do, do.
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Questlove
I play the drums, I play the keyboards. And literally, that's the song. There's no. There's no lyrics to the song. It's just a sing along. But what Sly doesn't realize is that in his very sarcastic, bitter, middle finger type of way, he includes everybody and people grasp to it. And so Dancing the Music is one of those accidental number one songs that he didn't intend on catching on. It was more of like just a bitter. Here, you guys want, you know, regular food instead of this, you know, meal I cooked up for you. Fine, take your sandwich and get out of here. And people gravitated towards it, so.
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Terry Gross
But there's a lot going on in that song, including, like, the kind of scatting part.
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Questlove
Yeah. So what he includes is, you know, a very, you know, the drum beat that is played there is kind of a precursor to what we will call four on the floor. And 10 years later, four on the floor will just be, you know, Whereas in the 60s, four on the floor means that the snare, the kick and the hi hat are all doing.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
You.
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Questlove
Know, it's teaching your body how to dance to it. Ten years later, they'll take the snare and the hi hat away and it'll Just be the kick, boom, boom, boom, boom. And that will be the disco rhythm, you know, what we call boots and cats. Boots, cats, boots, cats, boots and cats. So Sly will basically kind of give you the prototype of what will be the disco pulse in the late 60s. But, you know, he's writing the blueprint of what modern dance music will be in 10 years.
- [13:34]
Terry Gross
But then he also does a lot of things that become beats for hip hop artists later.
- [13:39]
Questlove
Yes. So again, Sly believes in micro examples. Like, you know, another artist will make one hook, one melody, one lyric, you know, like just one thing. Whereas Sly will probably try to cram in seven ideas at the same time. Like, Sly puts a lot of attention to harmony, which is a church thing. So that makes people feel comfortable, like, oh, they went to church cause they sing harmonious. But then Sly knows the importance of unison. Unison singing is where everyone sings in the same register. So like, you know, think of the idea of like when Billy Joel's Piano man comes on, you know, that's the type of song that you hear in a bar and, you know, everyone sings together as they hold their mug of beer and, you know, sing along. So that's a very inclusive type of thing. So when everyone's singing in the same key without harmony, it's not intimidating like the worst singer and the best singer can unify. So he knew the power of unison singing, which is included, and harmony singing, which is a spectacle and type of dance rhythms and innovative bass sounds like just every new idea that was unexplored in 1967, 68 and 69. Sly was the pioneer and the first person to do those things.
- [15:03]
Terry Gross
My guest is Amir Kweslov Thompson. His new documentary, Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius is now streaming on Hulu. We'll hear more of our conversation after a break. I'm Terry Gross and this is Fresh AIR Weekend.
- [15:19]
Sebastian Stan
This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on think or swim. Visit schwab.com to learn more.
- [15:33]
Capella University
This message comes from Capella University. Learning doesn't have to get in the way of life. With Capella's game changing flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your own schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to earn your degree. Instead, enjoy learning your way and pursue your educational and career goals without missing a beat. A different future is Closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more@capella.edu this message comes from Mint Mobile.
- [16:06]
Sebastian Stan
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Terry Gross
To play another Sly track and talk about it with you because I found the film so interesting in really pointing to specifically what makes Sly's music so interesting and catchy and why so many people kind of, as you put it, use his vocabulary. So I want to play everyday people because this has significance in a lot of ways. I mean, Sly's band is made up of black and white musicians, male and female musicians, and everyday people speaks to inclusivity. So can you talk about that a little bit in terms of the types of music that are drawn on in Sly's music and the kind of inclusivity that he represented within the band and in some of his lyrics.
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Questlove
Sly's role, Vernon Reed of Living Color kind of painted that. You know, this marks the first time that a black singer is kind of stepping out of the roles that we were traditionally playing. You know, before Sly, it was like you were strictly singing about love songs, in particular about relationships. You really weren't giving any commentary about everyday life or things that are relatable in the present to the audience that you're serving. It's almost like music before Sly was almost kind of a fantasy, if you will, like a means to escape your present situation. And Sly kind of uses his music as a means to sell humanity. And Everyday People's a great example where he's essentially saying that, hey, like, I breathe air like you do, I bleed like you do. There's some things that we have in common, there's some things that we don't have in common, but we're all the same person. And sometimes, especially, you know, during that period, during the civil rights period, especially with that time in which Martin Luther King has died and Malcolm X has died, Mecca Evers has died and the Kennedys died, and kind of the dream of the civil rights period died. That kind of messaging at the time seemed very necessary for, you know, there was questions in the air like, what do we do now? So Slide kind of accidentally inserts himself in the leadership position kind of in the name of just trying to find relatable content to his lyrics. Because, you know, a lot of his music is, is very self confessional and very relatable kind of in a way that, you know, Dylan was also affecting music with his. You know, with his songs at the time. And I guess Sly wound up being the unofficial spokesperson for. For black people.
- [19:30]
Terry Gross
Well, let's hear Everyday People. And this is from 1969.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Sometimes I'm right but I could be wrong My own beliefs are in my song. The picture, the baker, the drummer and him Makes no difference what you bound him. I have every three People. Yeah, yeah. There is a new one for living with a skinny one. We got to live together better. Neither are you. We are the same.
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Terry Gross
Whatever we do.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
You love me, you hate me, you know me. And then you can figure out the bag again. And every day, people, there is a long hair that doesn't like a shark.
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Terry Gross
Therefore, being such a rich one, that.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Will not help the.
- [21:27]
Terry Gross
So that was Everyday People, which, as you pointed out, has a kind of nursery rhyme part to it.
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Questlove
Yeah.
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Terry Gross
Yeah. And that has, like I said, the message of inclusivity and togetherness. But as someone in your documentary points out, that alienated a lot of black listeners in the sense that, you know, police were beating up black people, which, of course, you could say today as well. But it was a very. It was. And also, like, black power was becoming a thing.
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Questlove
It was risky. Yeah, it was risky because again, this song is released right on the edge of the razor. Like, there's always a time in American history, and, you know, today is no different. There's always a time in American history where we're just right on the edge. Right. Right on the precipice of, like, you know, a kind of explosive end result, you know, and for someone to sort of come in waving a proverbial, like, white flag, that's a risky thing, because, you know, one, we do see the evidence of the abuse that's given. But it's also like, who's gonna be the first person to kind of come to half court, you know, to the 50 yard line? Who's gonna cross the aisle and, you know, start a Kumbaya moment and sort of dismantles whatever conflicts that we have. And that's the role that Sly's music played. Whereas, you know, the messaging of his music was always encouraging. Always a cheerleader of justice and a cheerleader of positivity. And unfortunately, even though the music spoke of that optimism inside, he was sort of falling apart at the seams. Because there's a pressure of or a burden, which is why we call it the burden of black genius. There's a burden when one puts themselves in that position where they often have to come up with the solutions or the answers to why society is the way it is.
- [23:58]
Terry Gross
Amir, it's been so great to talk with you and just like all these projects you're doing, it's really remarkable. I really look forward to the Earth, Wind and Fire movie now.
- [24:08]
Questlove
Well, whenever I do a press run, this is one of my favorite highlights and I'm so glad that for the last 20 plus years like this has sort of been like the springboard for my projects coming out and I thank you for receiving it.
- [24:24]
Terry Gross
Amira Kweslov Thompson's new film is called Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius. It's streaming on Hulu. My next guest Sebastian Stan is nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film the Apprentice. It begins in 1973, when Trump is 27, still working for his father's real estate development company and trying to make a name for himself. The company is being sued for discriminating against black people in its rental units. Trump convinces his father to hire Roy Cohn as their attorney. Cohn was infamous for being the chief counsel to Senator Joe McCarthy's Senate investigation into suspected communists. Cohn becomes Trump's mentor, teaching him how to admit nothing and deny everything, go on the attack and intimidate through the threat of lawsuits or through actually filing lawsuits. Cohn is played by Jeremy Strong, who's also nominated for an Oscar. Last month, Stan won a Golden Globe for his starring role in A Different man, as a man who's disfigured by a genetic condition that has grown fleshy tumors on his face. The tumors disappear after taking a new drug, and he emerges quite attractive, but remains alienated and withdrawn from other people. In the film I Tonya Sebastian Stan played Tonya Harding's boyfriend who plots to disable her ice skating competitor Nancy Kerrigan in the miniseries Pam and Tommy. He played Tommy Lee, Motley Crue's drummer and Pamela Anderson's husband. A lot of Stan's fans know him from the Marvel Cinematic Universe as Bucky Barnes, a recurring character in the Captain America film films. Let's start with a scene from the Apprentice. Trump is planning to build Trump Tower and is trying to convince New York City Mayor Ed Koch that it will be so extraordinary. Koch should give him tax breaks. It will be so good for New York. Roy Cohn is also in the room. You'll hear him jumping into the conversation.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
I really think this is going to be one of the most exceptional buildings anywhere in the world, and frankly, there's never been anything like it. 68 stories tall, 28 sides, a million square feet. Every unit will have amenities like you wouldn't believe. And the high floors have exceptional views over Central Park. The lobby, the floors will all be marble, pink Paradiso marble from Italy. We'll have the largest atrium in the world, a 60 foot waterfall spanned by shops and retail and restaurants. And I think it's going to be something very special. Frankly, there's never been anything and what are you going to call it? Trump Tower. Trump Tower. Oh, that's interesting. Look, he has a great track record, so we think this is a very reasonable ask. Well, I, I, as I frequently say.
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Terry Gross
About his buildings, the merits of.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Fine. The thing is we're just not going.
- [27:11]
Terry Gross
To give you the tax breaks.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Why would we?
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Terry Gross
I mean, I can't let you get rich on the backs of the people of New York and their treasury.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Well, Mr. Mayor, first of all, look, Mr. Mayor, my client. Well, you're not, you're not, Mr. Mayor, because I'm building a 68 story building that's going to employ 5,000 construction workers.
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Terry Gross
And we have heard stories about the.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Construction workers working on your projects.
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Terry Gross
They don't get paid. They have leons against you.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Donald, I'm trying to employ people in New York and turn us back around. You're trying towards the future and you're being a very unfair guy because frankly, what do you know about me? What do you know about the amount of money that I made on my own? You don't know anything. To be perfectly honest, Mr. Mayor, you don't know me at all. But you will, you'll never forget me after this because I won't forget what you just did. Trump Tower will be built with or without you. Okay. You're about to be sued. Mr. Mayor.
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Terry Gross
Sebastian. Stan, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. I think you're great.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
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Terry Gross
So after choosing that clip, first of all, I should say some listeners were probably thinking he doesn't sound like Trump. What would you say to that?
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Well, I mean, I would say that Trump did not sound like Trump when he was in his mid to late 30s, which is when that was sort of happening. And I think that I did make some conscious choices very carefully with the voice, not only just to honor the age and what he sounded like at the time, which to me sounded very different than today, but also to not lean into it as much as it's become popular to do because a big challenge with this role was obviously to Avoid falling into caricature and into sort of the version of a cartoon that he's somewhat become, one would argue, even willingly on his own part, whether he's aware of that or not, because the voice, along with mannerisms and other physical characteristics that he has, that we've become so accustomed to and we've been so oversaturated with, really had to be kind of very. I had to very carefully select and maneuver them and kind of earn them over the period of time of the movie, very much like he did as he grew into what we see today, but in part because I needed to bring audience in on this journey as opposed to alienating them from the beginning with what they've already sort of know and expect.
- [29:53]
Terry Gross
You made the film while Biden was president. In between Trump's two terms. What's it like watching his second term after having played him?
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Well, that's a really great question, and it's one where there's no real clear answer that I can give you. It's a mixed bag. It's a mixed bag. I mean, a lot of ways, a lot of things look very predictable to me, especially having studied him for this film. The victimhood, blaming, the revenge tactics, all that. We go in depth in the film that he had absorbed from Roy Cohn. You really do see, I think even if you look at the inauguration, I mean, and even at the debate, right, with Kamala Harris, I mean, you really see what we talk about in the movie of these sort of ways he's learned to flip it around on the other person and kind of just always just be denying reality and reshaping the truth as long as it fits his narrative. And the complete, utter lack of acceptance for any criticism or any wrongdoing or anything whatsoever. So it's eerily familiar. It's predictable. It's also, I may say, tragic, because I guess for me, you know, I also feel like I saw a version of this overweight kid that was paranoid and insecure and desperate for attention, that was made to pay a big price at daddy's big betrayal, sending him off to military school, where he had to kind of, you know, whatever happened there, that. That dehumanized him further. And. And the revenge that he's been enacting out, you know, and. And at the same time, it's. It's. It's hard not to sort of find some of it upsetting as well, because I do feel so much of it is rage and anger that's been suppressed and undealt with that. We're all having to kind of just, you know, deal with and, and pay a price for.
- [32:06]
Terry Gross
But playing him, I'm sure you had to be him and see things from his point of view, which requires you, the actor, to have empathy for Trump, the character that you're portraying.
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Amir Kweslov Thompson
Well, I think as an actor, you have to kind of go through a process where you look at what are the things here that I feel that are useful for me to do this in the right way that it's asking of me, and what are the things that I feel that are gonna work against me. And then you have to sort of become an investigator and you have to, in a way, be a bodyguard to the character you're playing. And I've wrestled with a degree of powerlessness as a child that I felt growing up as a result of a lot of change that happened very quickly in formative years where I didn't feel safe and changing countries and changing schools and changing homes and caretakers coming and going and so on. And that's affected my life in a certain way. But I would argue nowhere near the degree of powerlessness that I feel he must have gone through in order to create such an ulterior ego to the extent that he has, because that's what I really see it's about with him, it's always power and mistrust and paranoia and everything is transactional. That's how he operates.
- [33:36]
Terry Gross
Sebastian Stan is nominated for an Oscar for his portrayal of Donald Trump in the film the Apprentice. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR weekend.
- [33:49]
Sebastian Stan
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- [34:44]
Capella University
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- [34:57]
Terry Gross
I want to move on to another new film of yours, which has been playing on HBO lately and I assume on Max, and that's a different man, for which you won a Golden Globe in January. And in this film, you're afflicted with neurofibromatosis, which is a genetic disease that creates fleshy tumors. And for you, fleshy tumors on the face. So you're kind of treated a bit like an outcast because people stare at you, they might move away. The character who you're attracted to, who seems to be very fond of you, just recoils when you try to touch her. So then you're part of a new drug, experimental trial, and the drug cures the condition. The tumors kind of fall away, and you're very attractive underneath. You have a beautiful face. It's your face. It's Sebastian Stan's face. But your character doesn't change. You're alienated, you're isolated, and that's not going to change. I'm wondering how much this film made you think about looks and how looks determine how people are treated in this world, which is something a lot of us think about all the time.
- [36:16]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
Well, of course. I mean, how could it. How could it not? I mean, there were. There were a couple parts to. To the film that I sort of related to. I mean, one, you know, I. I struggled with weight when I was a little kid. You know, I had my own. And obviously coming from a different country and trying to learn a new language and fit in. Right. I had my own. I experiences where I felt alienated or where I felt people acted differently towards me because I was different or I sounded different or whatever. There was that piece. Then there was the piece of which actually I wasn't aware of, which Aaron Shinberg, the writer, director, and Adam Pearson, who also stars in the movie, who has neurofibromatosis, made me aware of, which was this piece about how as a recognizable person, recognizable actor on the street, I am sort of public property. Very much in the same way that somebody with a disability is actually, you know, And I have experienced that invasion of privacy. I experienced it daily when I walk around or if I'm sitting at lunch, someone's filming without my consent or someone's whispering or you feel people look at you. Or sometimes I, you know, People come up and they tap you on the shoulder. And so these are all very similar things that. That Edward or people that have had, you know, have stood out for various reasons, deal with all the time. And the third part of it was that once I got the prosthetics on, which were incredible, by this artist, Mike Marino, I went out on the street and I really walked around New York City and sort of experienced people's reactions firsthand. And I got to see how limited the narratives around disability and disfigurement are.
- [37:59]
Terry Gross
Tell me about what you experienced doing that.
- [38:03]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
Well, I mean, it was incredibly informative, obviously, for me as a character, in terms of the physicality that I discovered from it. I mean, for one, you know, I could only see out of one eye and hear out of one ear. That affected the way I walked. That affected the distance that I was taking from people, how I stood, how much I saw, you know, but also just looking down. But in terms of the level of self awareness and the powerlessness and the isolation that I experienced, you know, standing on a street on a busy corner in Manhattan, I don't think I ever experienced that in my life. And it was incredibly lonely. I think I've spoken about this, but a lot of people just either ignored or jumped to this sort of degree of pity that they feel like they owe you sort of something. And the only people that I interacted with very briefly that actually seemed where the connection seemed genuine were kids. You know, I had this one moment with this little girl who seemed fascinated by the way I looked, and it was just curiosity, and it's curiosity that sort of we lack or we're afraid of when we're dealing with sort of these differences.
- [39:21]
Terry Gross
You grew up in Romania, and when you were growing up, I think you lived there till, what, the age of eight or nine?
- [39:27]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
Yeah, about eight. Yeah. Until right after the revolution, yeah.
- [39:31]
Terry Gross
So you were very young, during the end of communism in Romania, when the dictator Nicolae Ceausescu was overthrown. He was the head of the Communist Party there. There were protests. There were violent confrontations between the protesters and police. In 1989, as Ceausescu and his wife tried to escape, they were captured. He stood trial, found guilty, and was executed. How aware were you as a child of what was happening in the country you were living in?
- [40:04]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
Oh, I remember watching the execution on television.
- [40:07]
Terry Gross
They televised it.
- [40:08]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
I remember that happening. Yeah.
- [40:10]
Terry Gross
How was he executed?
- [40:11]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
They were shot against the wall. You know, I do remember that because we only had one hour of news a night. That was the tv. We had, you know, only one hour of television a day. Oh, that was it, with the exception of New Year's Eve, which, you know, had television all night long. And so I have these vivid memories about being able to stay up New Year's Eve and how it was this magical time. But. But TV was very limited, and propaganda was very specific. And there was always a degree of kind of awareness about what you talked about, even sometimes with your neighbors, because your neighbor could go and tell on you and so on and so forth. I mean, that's sort of like what I took from my mom and my grandparents, you know, when we were growing up. And it was only until later when I sort of learned a little bit more about my father, who had escaped Romania much earlier, and so on and so forth. But I have these images like that on television and then also seeing the flag with a giant hole where the Communist symbol had been cut out of flying on this Dacia, which is the only car we were allowed to have. You know, everybody was allowed to have the same car across and these teenagers screaming.
- [41:30]
Terry Gross
So your father was able to get out of Romania before the Communist government fell, and I know he helped other people get out as well. Was he still married to your mother at the time?
- [41:47]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
No, no. My father was part of that generation of young people that were really trying to find a way to live around communism and stand up to communism. And, you know, he had been in the Navy, he'd worked on a cargo ship, and he had helped a lot of people escape the country. And there was, you know, he had created a lot of attention on him to the point where it was no longer safe for him to be in the country. And there was a degree of that that we knew, and there's a degree of that that we didn't know. But I think in some ways, and certainly a lot of people that I've spoken to years later about, who were his friends and who knew him, he was heralded a hero in a way, to them.
- [42:42]
Terry Gross
Is he still alive?
- [42:44]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
No, he's. He's no longer alive, no.
- [42:46]
Terry Gross
Were you ever able to talk to him about this?
- [42:49]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
I did, yeah. Yeah. He. He passed away recently. But we. We've had. We were able to sort of connect later in life, like, basically more when I was 17, 18, and. And he was in California at the time. And it was actually, I was very lucky because I was trying to be an actor and I was coming out to la. I didn't live in la. I was living in New York. I just graduated from School. But I needed to come out to LA for pilot season and auditions and things like that. And I had no money, and I was able to kind of go and live with him and go audition and, you know, use his car. And so that time we really. We really connected, and I got to know him, and I think by the end of his life, I think we really did become very close. And that was important for me.
- [43:46]
Terry Gross
Were you surprised to hear some of the things he told you about his past?
- [43:52]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
Yes and no. But at the same time, you know, I think one of the things I didn't really understand is how much he loved America. How much he loved and how strongly he felt about America, you know, and the 80s and Ronald Reagan and what it meant, make America great again. And really, really was proud to have come here and been able to have had an opportunity to start a life, you know, and get his passport and work and earn a living and be free, you know. And these are all things I thought about when I was doing this movie. These are all things I thought about. And I mean, I had a degree of that that. I mean, it makes me emotional to think about it, but, like, I had a degree of that that I always understood about, you know, that I was. When I came to New York and my mom and everything, and the amazing opportunity that I was blessed with to be able to come here, you know, I mean, for a kid from this country, there are many people that didn't make it, you know, and so the message was, what are you going to do with it? What are you going to make out of yourself? There was great liberty in that and pressure. And also that's the American dream, and that's what the movie to me is, the Apprentice. That was a lot of what I was trying to understand also. But questions I had about where my father came from, what did he see in this country and what did this country give us and how far you can go? And there's a lot to talk about, but hopefully. You know what I mean.
- [45:30]
Terry Gross
Yeah. Well, when you came here, you had already lived in Romania. You had to learn German from scratch when you and your mother moved to Vienna. And I think. How old were you when you came.
- [45:41]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
To the U.S. i came when I was officially. We moved in 95 when I was 12. We had visited us a couple times before that, and then we moved in 95, summer of 95.
- [45:54]
Terry Gross
Okay. So you grow up in Romania, where there's an hour of TV a night and it's probably just propaganda, and then you move to America where everybody just like watches TV and goes to the movies. And this is before, probably before the heavy days of the Internet and social media.
- [46:11]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
Oh, yeah, there was none of that. None of that. I remember my first movies in the theater were Jurassic park and Mrs. Doubtfire. I mean, that like that was. Blew my mind, you know, you say.
- [46:22]
Terry Gross
It blew your mind, but I can imagine that a lot of it, pop culture did because you weren't a part of it. You didn't get to grow up with it the way everybody around you in America did.
- [46:33]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
No, it's true. And actually I was always behind as a result, like for instance, with the Beatles or, you know, things that people kind of like just know second nature. I was always discovering them like too late. So I was never a cool kid in high school because of that, you know, I was kind of trailing behind.
- [46:49]
Terry Gross
What'd you do to try to catch up?
- [46:53]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
Well, I think, you know, the survive mechanism is like, you don't want to be different, you know, you want to just fit in. I was, I remember being even like really insecure about my name Sebastian, that it was such a different name. Everybody in my high school was, even in middle school, I mean, was named Anthony, Christopher, you know, Sam, whatever. Like there was all these names and there was a part of me even wanting to be named different. So I was petrified about being different, you know. Right. It was like the late 90s. And so you try to wear, you know, the jeans everybody was wearing. I remember these Jen Co jeans or whatever. It was like every skater guy had these baggy, baggy jeans. I wanted to get a pair of that. You know, I cut my hair like NSYNC or Backstreet boards. It was like that mushroom haircut that DiCaprio had in Titanic. You know, like you just wanted to be. You just want to look like what everybody else is doing.
- [47:51]
Terry Gross
It seems like you spent part of your early life in hiding. You know, literally you had. Watch what you said in Romania, in Vienna, you had to learn German to fit in and, you know, you had to learn that from scratch. You come to America, you try to be like other teens. Even though he had a totally different background than American teens did. So there's a lot that you had to acquire and a lot probably that you had to hide.
- [48:19]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
Yeah, no, I. Well, I, I think you're right, but I think this is what acting did for me. Acting liberated me from that. I mean, I. It was really around the same time that I. That I found acting basically in high school, kind of when I was 14, something like that, and doing a school play. And then I went to the studio staged or Manor acting camp, which was a very pretty well known acting camp, met friends there. And I just. I don't know, it just. It was the first thing that never. That just allowed me or gave me permission to sort of, kind of have more confidence and courage. And so as a result, I think the work has always been, no matter what it is, you know, no matter how scary it might be or unknown to me it might be, it's always liberated me. It's never hindered me.
- [49:15]
Terry Gross
So I'm thinking about your mother here. Your mother moves with you and your new stepfather to New York. You know, it's always hard to uproot a child and uproot them to another country. That's probably super hard. But I'm thinking the life you have now, the respect and fame that you've achieved, all that you've accomplished, must make her feel really good about the decisions that she made and alleviate any guilt that she might have experienced at the beginning when you were trying so hard to acclimate to a new country.
- [49:53]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
Oh, absolutely. I think so. I mean, you know, my mother is coming with me to the Oscars. You know, she's my date. I think she's very proud, you know, and I'm. And I'm so insanely grateful to her for supporting me. You know, I had a supporting parent with acting. A lot of kids do not have supportive parents like that. So I felt like, you know, she did her best, maybe more than her best, you know, and she. She made tough choices in her life, but. But certainly gave me an opportunity in her life. So this whole experience has been all about being able to thank her, you know, and my stepdad.
- [50:39]
Terry Gross
So at the Oscars, I always wonder, what's it like if you lose and the camera is on you and you have to pretend like, I'm so happy for the winner. That's so wonderful.
- [50:51]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
Oh, my God. The impossible has already happened. You know, as somebody told me early on when they said, you know, if you think this is going to be a thankless job, like, you're not, you know, if you think you're going to do this movie and someone's going to, you're going to. First of all, you're going to piss off everybody. No one's going to. Not one person's going to. Whether they care for him or they. Or they hate him, they're all going to be pissed. No one's going to see anything in this or in any value in this. So I just keep pinching myself going like, I remember that, you know, the cease and desist letter. And then, you know, no one wanted to buy the film. And then it's like, is it going to come out? And then, oh, we have no money. There's no billboard on Sunset. And now here, here's Jeremy and I kind of going to this thing. And so I, you know, it's a funny moment when you're watching that. Of course, you mean we've all seen Oscars and you kind of go, what's going on through everybody's mind. But I feel the win has already happened here, you know, for me. And it's, I will be grateful in that moment no matter what at this point. I know that's like what everybody says, but I think for me, genuinely, it's just been so surreal. It's impossible, I think, for me to have any more expectations at this point.
- [52:12]
Terry Gross
Sebastian Stan, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much and good luck at the Oscars.
- [52:18]
Amir Kweslov Thompson
It's been lovely. Thank you for having me and I really appreciate your questions and taking the time.
- [52:23]
Terry Gross
Sebastian Stan is nominated for an Oscar for his starring role in the film the Apprentice. FRESH AIR Weekend is produced by Theresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is RD Bentham. Are managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
- [52:51]
Sebastian Stan
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- [53:45]
Capella University
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