Best Of: ‘The Invite’ screenwriters / Guitarist Lenny Kaye

Summary

Fresh Air Weekend – July 18, 2026

Episode: ‘Best Of: The Invite screenwriters / Guitarist Lenny Kaye’
Hosted by: Tonya Mosley & Terry Gross

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Episode Overview

This episode of Fresh Air Weekend features two in-depth interviews. First, Tonya Mosley talks with Rashida Jones and Will McCormack, the acclaimed writing team behind the new film The Invite, a comedy-drama about marriage, honesty, and middle age set during a single dinner party. Later, Terry Gross sits down with legendary guitarist and author Lenny Kaye to reflect on his decades-long collaboration with Patti Smith, his musical journey, and his new solo album—his first at age 79.

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Segment 1: Rashida Jones & Will McCormack on The Invite

(00:47–21:11; continues 13:37–20:59)

Main Theme

Jones and McCormack discuss the creative origins, emotional themes, and collaborative process behind their latest screenplay, The Invite, a sharp, funny examination of relationships, regret, and the secrets that surface in middle age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Breaking Social Rules for Comedy

• The film opens with a broken social contract: neighbors hear a couple fighting and openly acknowledge it, shattering the polite pretense most people keep. This sets the tone for the night’s escalating honesty and drama.
• Rashida Jones (05:44):
  “It's kind of the beauty of this match of these two very different duos… they're coming in. They're going to perhaps bring a wrecking ball to this already fragile relationship right from the start.”

The Meaning Behind the Title

• Although inspired by the Spanish film The People Upstairs, McCormack explains how The Invite as a title has multiple resonances, both literal and symbolic—repeated invitations, both explicit and emotional, unfold and complicate the evening.
• Will McCormack (07:08):
  “It also just felt like classic. It felt sort of iconic, like The Graduate. I just like the sound of it… There’s several different invites over the course of the evening, and those are fun to peel back where you think, oh, my God, there's another invite. I didn't see that coming.”

Mining the Truth of Private Grief and Unfulfilled Dreams

• Through awkward small talk and subtle power plays (as heard in the apartment décor clip at 08:22), The Invite explores how lives “that look great from the outside” mask disappointments over unmet ambitions and the “private grief” of aging and letting go.
• Tonya Mosley (09:19):
  “Their lives actually look really great, you know, and from the outside, but there's this private grief over the person that they thought they'd become.”
• Will McCormack (09:51):
  “Being an adult is sort of like reconciling who you are with who you want to be. And it's great to have dreams and sometimes dreams don't come true, but that doesn't mean you can't have another… he's just stuck.”

Processing Pain Through Humor

• The duo’s hallmark is finding comedy in pain.
  Rashida Jones (10:30, 19:28):
  “This night is about exposing this very private grief… they haven't processed the pain, the death of their old selves… they're forced to do it in this one fateful night.”
  “There’s nothing that's grave enough for us not to laugh about, because that's how we release. That's how we process our pain… We laugh through death and sickness and sadness.”

Esther Perel’s Influence

• Relationship expert Esther Perel served as a consultant, with her insights on endings and new beginnings making a deep impact on the script.
• Rashida Jones (11:39):
  “When you've had such a difficult relationship that at a certain point you have to almost acknowledge that the relationship is over and then… start another relationship maybe with each other and maybe with somebody else. That’s the essence of her teaching and also the essence of this movie.”

Writing Partnership & Personal Chemistry

• The pair reflect on their own “working marriage,” their brief history as romantic partners (group dates, “full Scorpio vibes” – 15:17), and how their sibling-like bond translates into honest, emotionally charged writing.
  • Will McCormack (15:36):
    “We're really like brother and sister who, you know, dated briefly, which is not weird… I think we both knew right from the very beginning that we were connected and that we had to be in each other's lives.”
• Acting as a Discovery Tool: Both leverage their acting backgrounds, acting out scenes as they write to keep dialogue natural (16:45–17:26).

A Magnet for Emotional “Traffic Jams”

• Mosley observes how their stories home in on “emotional traffic jams”—high-stakes moments when characters must confront buried truths.
• Will McCormack (17:50):
  “Life is really just a series of losses. It's one loss and one heartbreak after another… But I say that because I really believe it, that those are the gifts, right, of being human… heartbreak is the thing that binds us.”
• Rashida Jones (19:28):
  “The inevitability of loss and heartbreak and letting go, butting up against… believing that things are gonna be okay… There's something really funny about it for us… That's the thing that brings us together.”

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Notable Quotes

• “We laugh through death and sickness and sadness. And, like, I believe that... is the medicine.”
  — Rashida Jones (19:28)
• “Life is really just a series of losses... heartbreak is the thing that binds us… Those moments can actually be the funniest because they're so raw and it's when we feel connected, right?”
  — Will McCormack (18:12)
• “Being an adult is sort of like reconciling who you are with who you want to be.”
  — Will McCormack (09:51)

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Memorable Moments

• The pair openly joke about their “group dates” and 90s romance—setting a candid, playful tone.
• The revelation that their creative process is deeply informed by constantly acting out dialogue and leaning on their actor instincts.

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Important Timestamps

• [05:44] – Breaking the “rule” of not acknowledging a couple’s argument
• [07:08] – Layered meaning of The Invite
• [09:19] – Concept of “private grief”
• [10:30] – Exposing hidden pain in relationships
• [11:39] – Esther Perel’s major thematic contribution
• [15:17] – Anecdotes about how they met, “full Scorpio vibes”
• [17:47] – The writers’ fascination with emotional turning points
• [19:28] – Humor as a way to process pain

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Segment 2: Lenny Kaye – Life, Patti Smith, and His First Solo Album

(21:24–51:37; continues 33:54–51:37)

Main Theme

Terry Gross interviews Lenny Kaye, tracing his formative years, long partnership with Patti Smith, and exploring his late-career emergence as a solo artist, reflecting on legacy, reinvention, and the universality of music.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why a Solo Album Now?

• After years supporting others (especially Patti Smith), Kaye discusses why his debut solo record, Goin Local, took nearly eight decades.
• Lenny Kaye (23:05):
  “I can only really deal with one thing at a time... I didn't quite know how to present myself. This is a different side of what people might expect from me… there's a progression of my musical consciousness that's reflected in this album.”

Grappling with Legacy and Mortality

• Kaye reflects on “the things you leave behind”—what to do with a lifetime’s collection of records, books, and personal artifacts.
• Lenny Kaye (26:05):
  “I call my accumulation the museum of me. Because, you know, I look at all the books, some of which I'll never read, but I like seeing their spines on the shelf.”
• His song “The Things You Leave Behind” is inspired by sorting through a friend’s belongings after their death—a meditation on memory and curation.
• Gross shares her late husband’s philosophy:
  “[He] wanted most of his collection... sold, so that record buyers could experience the pleasure he got from buying the records, from searching for them, finding them, buying them, listening to them.” (29:04)

Eclectic Musical Roots & Evolving Identity

• Kaye’s background spans working in record stores, bands, and as a rock critic.
• Early brush with performance: his uncle, lyricist Larry Kusik (who co-wrote "Speak Softly, Love" from The Godfather), brought him into a studio to record his 1960s protest tune "Crazy Like a Fox" under the name Link Cromwell.

The Enduring Patti Smith Partnership

• Gross recounts Kaye’s first connection with Smith through his writing about doo-wop and a cappella, leading to decades of musical collaboration.
• Lenny Kaye (42:00):
  “Patti didn't want to do a standard poetry reading… so she wanted to, you know, have a little action. I just kind of put some rhythmic energy behind the poems. And we went there and did it. It was not meant to be anything… New York at that time was just a hotbed of artistic creativity... We developed organically and that to me is what made us so special.”
• Recording “Gloria” (46:43): Kaye details how the iconic cover came about and its radical energy.

The Universal Language of Song

• Kaye muses on music’s ability to cross genres while expressing universal themes—love, loss, identity.
• Lenny Kaye (31:32):
  “Music releases us, music elevates us. Music illuminates us… These are the elements of why we sing. And I'm, of course, quite blessed to be part of those who sing and see it come back to them. In the response of the audience.”

Friendship as Lifeblood

• The episode closes with his song “A Friend Like You,” rooted in connection and gratitude.

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Notable Quotes

• “I call my accumulation the museum of me. Of course, you know, the accumulation of records, which is a curation of a sort. And anytime I get rid of a record, I want to hear it a week later.”
  — Lenny Kaye (26:05)
• “She brought out in me a sense of trust in my own musical abilities. I’m not a virtuoso guitarist by any means, but she stayed with me and let me express my musicality. … She wants to see what happens next, and she encourages that in me.”
  — Lenny Kaye on Patti Smith (48:31)
• “Progress isn’t the future, it’s keeping up with the present.”
  — Patti Smith, quoted by Kaye (50:37)

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Memorable Moments

• Kaye’s humility and humor in describing his long hair’s origins and his “museum of me”
• The candid discussion of loss and what we all ultimately leave behind
• The vintage energy of the “Gloria” recording and the playful banter about early New York music scenes

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Important Timestamps

• [23:05] – Why Kaye finally made a solo album
• [25:55] – “The Things You Leave Behind” and personal legacy
• [29:50] – Working at famous record stores, music as “expanse”
• [34:10] – Kaye’s accordion beginnings and shift to guitar after seeing The Beatles
• [40:04] – Meeting Patti Smith, doo-wop’s influence, and their first collaborative reading
• [46:43] – The story behind Patti Smith’s “Gloria”
• [50:42] – “A Friend Like You” and friendship’s enduring role

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Episode Themes & Takeaways

• Radical honesty in art and life: Both interviews delve into what it means to face difficult truths—whether at the dinner table, in writing partnerships, or in the creative process.
• The alchemy of humor and pain: For Jones and McCormack, laughter is more than levity—it's how we process and survive sorrow. For Kaye, music is both solace and legacy.
• Embracing impermanence: Whether clearing out old records or letting go of past selves, these conversations champion the value of moving forward—and finding meaning in what remains.

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For listeners seeking moving, candid reflections on aging, creativity, and the messiness of human connection—this episode is not to be missed.

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Transcript

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

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[Tonya Mosley]

From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley in Los Angeles. Today, writing team Rashida Jones and Will McCormack, their new film the Invite takes on the realities of marriage and middle age. Tonight, told over the course of one dinner party that goes into salacious territory. Jones and McCormack have been mining stories like this together for decades and finding the funny inside the painful.

[Rashida Jones]

We are never above a laugh. There's nothing that's grave enough for us not to laugh about because that's how we process our pain is like we laugh through death and sickness and sadness.

[Tonya Mosley]

Also, Lenny Kaye, Patti Smith's longtime guitarist. He's made his first solo album at 79.

[Terry Gross]

It's about time you made your own album. Why did you never do it before and why did you do it now?

[Lenny Kaye]

Well, Terry, I've been slightly busy.

[Tonya Mosley]

That's coming up on FRESH AIR weekend.

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This message comes from NPR's sponsor, Shopify. No idea where to sell? Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet's best converting checkout to help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your business to the next level today.

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[Lenny Kaye]

apply the day's top headlines, local stories from your community, your next podcast binge listen.

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You can have it all in one place, your pocket.

[Lenny Kaye]

Download the NPR app today.

[Tonya Mosley]

This is FRESH AIR Weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley and my guests today are writers and performers Rashida Jones and Will McCormick. They dated Forsted in their 20s. It didn't work out, but what they found instead was one of the longest running creative partnerships in Hollywood. Their first screenplay together, Celeste and Jesse Forever from 2012, followed two people who couldn't stay married but also couldn't imagine life without each other. It's the kind of complicated relationship stories that they've returned to throughout their careers. Their latest screenplay is the Invite, directed by Olivia Wilde, who also stars alongside Seth Rogen, Penelope Cruz and Edward Norton. The entire film unfolds in a single San Francisco apartment. Two couples gather for dinner, and as the evening unfolds, the stories they've been telling about their relationships and themselves fall apart. It was Inspired by the 2020 Spanish film The People Upstairs by Cesc. In this scene, the couple who live upstairs, played by Cruz and Norton, have just arrived at their host's apartment, played by Wilde and Rogen.

[Lenny Kaye]

It took you a while to come to the door. No, I wasn't. And it sounded like you were arguing.

[Terry Gross]

No filter. No.

[Lenny Kaye]

I just want to be honest. We were at the door before we rang and we could hear you were fighting. Oh, we were talking.

[Tonya Mosley]

We were.

[Lenny Kaye]

We were fighting. We were fighting.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Lenny Kaye]

Bit of a contentious environment in here, so I understand if that's repellent to you.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer (Ollie/Wise)]

No hard feelings.

[Lenny Kaye]

You know what I mean?

[Terry Gross]

Completely understand.

[Lenny Kaye]

You know, we love a contentious environment. We love it.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer (Ollie/Wise)]

Okay. Wow.

[Terry Gross]

Really?

[Will McCormack]

It's fine.

[Lenny Kaye]

You hit the jackpot then, my friend.

[Tonya Mosley]

As the evening goes on, awkward small talk turns into an unexpected invitation. Rashida Jones is an actor, writer, producer and director. She won a Grammy for co directing the documentary Quincy, about her father, Quincy Jones, and recently earned an Emmy nomination for her performance in black mirror. Will McCormick is an Academy Award winning writer, director and actor. He won the Oscar for the animated short if Anything Happens I Love youe. Will McCormick is with me in our Los Angeles studio and Rashida Jones joins us from London. Welcome both of you to FRESH air.

[Rashida Jones]

Thank you.

[Will McCormack]

Thank you so much, Tanya. It's so great to be here with you.

[Tonya Mosley]

All right, let's start with this first scene that I just played because there is a rule that we all live by and nobody ever says out loud, if you hear a couple fighting through a door, you pretend you didn't hear it. And this movie actually opens with that rule being broken. Take us inside of the writer's room. When you decided that these Four will start with that rule being broken.

[Rashida Jones]

Well, it's kind of the beauty of this match of these two very different duos, where you have a couple that is boiling over by the time their neighbors arrive, and then you have this couple who has decided to kind of take the honesty of life and turn it inwards into their own kind of fantasy and excitement. So, you know, it's his theme stated, they're coming in. They're going to perhaps bring a wrecking ball to this already fragile relationship right from the start.

[Will McCormack]

Yeah, well, yeah, I think Hawk sets the tone right from the jump. You know, tonight we're going to sing it like we feel it. And I think that there's something really refreshing about that to Joe as well. Like, it does make him uncomfortable, but I think that it's so unvarnished and it's so raw that it's actually intriguing. And this is a night where people will have to reveal some hard truths. And Edward gets the party started right away.

[Tonya Mosley]

This, as I mentioned earlier, is inspired by this Spanish film that was under a different name. And, Will, you actually came up with this idea of the invite being the title of the movie, and it has double, almost triple meaning.

[Will McCormack]

Yeah, it felt like it worked in a lot of ways. It also just felt like classic. It felt sort of iconic, like the Graduate. I just like the sound of it.

[Tonya Mosley]

There's something horror like about it, too.

[Rashida Jones]

We talked about that a lot, which I think plays in well now with the kind of tone and the propulsion of the movie. But, yeah, Will is an expert title creator.

[Will McCormack]

Just to say it's really the only thing I excel at is titles. But it is. There's several different invites over the course of the evening, and those are fun to peel back where you think, oh, my God, there's another invite. I didn't see that coming.

[Tonya Mosley]

I want to play another clip from this film. And in this scene, they have moved past that explosive entrance, but the evening is still getting started. Hawk, who is played by Edward Norton, and his partner Pina, who is played by Penelope Cruz, they're admiring the apartment and Hawke is complimenting the decor. He's walking around the living room, and it feels like harmless small talk. And then it turns into something else. We start to see beneath the surface, the of Angela and Joe's marriage, played by Olivia Wilde and Seth Rogen. Let's listen.

[Lenny Kaye]

You've really got some beautiful pieces. It's all Angela.

[Tonya Mosley]

Well, I know what I like, but it's actually not all expensive.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer (Ollie/Wise)]

Some of it is.

[Tonya Mosley]

Some of it Most of it's not.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer (Ollie/Wise)]

Some of it is, though.

[Tonya Mosley]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Not all.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Not everything.

[Lenny Kaye]

Some of it is, but not everything. I guess what I meant to say is you can tell that it's been done with a lot of care, and you have a really great eye.

[Terry Gross]

That's true. I can feel it. I feel you put so much love.

[Lenny Kaye]

I did that.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Thank you. Yeah.

[Lenny Kaye]

I love it.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

I do love it.

[Tonya Mosley]

I really care.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

I do.

[Lenny Kaye]

Thank you for saying that.

[Tonya Mosley]

See it. I care. I do care a lot.

[Lenny Kaye]

I'm so sorry. I'm getting emotional. I don't know why, but I thank you. Thank you for saying that.

[Rashida Jones]

It has got great energy.

[Lenny Kaye]

Wow, look at that.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Energy is what I was going for.

[Lenny Kaye]

That's what I wanted.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer (Ollie/Wise)]

Energy's great.

[Lenny Kaye]

We talked a lot about how to capture energy as though that was a

[Terry Gross]

real thing we could do.

[Tonya Mosley]

Well, that was a scene from the Invite written by my guest today, Rashida Jones and Will McCormack. And Seth's character, It's interesting, his responses, his quips. He is a musician whose band had one hit years ago, and he's kind of still carrying this around. And what struck me is that it's such an ordinary kind of disappointment. Their lives actually look really great, you know, and from the outside, but there's this private grief over the person that they thought they'd become.

[Will McCormack]

Yeah. And I think Joe is defensive about this conversation about energy, because he's uncomfortable, because his energy is completely stuck. It's whack. Yeah, his energy is for sure whack, but it's completely stuck. Right. He's inert. And, you know, I think that being an adult is sort of like reconciling who you are with who you want to be. And it's great to have dreams, and sometimes dreams don't come true, but that doesn't mean you can't have another. That doesn't mean life goes on. Right. Like, you don't always get that dream to come true, but you can pursue another, and he's just stuck, and it just becomes toxic.

[Rashida Jones]

I love what you said, Tonya, about private grief, because that is. It's like this night is about exposing this very private grief that's like they haven't processed the pain, the death of their old selves, both with each other and for themselves. And, like, they're forced to do it in this one fateful night.

[Tonya Mosley]

Are these the kind of conversations that you all are having as you're building out these characters and actually writing them? Take us to this writing room where you're kind of delving into these deeper things.

[Rashida Jones]

It's literally all we talk about whether whether we're writing or not. It's all we talk about. So selfishly, it's great that we can channel the thing we're most interested in, which is like relationships, living with other people, being parents, losing parents, being alive, getting older, being middle age, looking down, straight down the barrel of the back half of life. All these things we got to bring to this script.

[Tonya Mosley]

Relationship expert Esther Perel consulted on this film. Is there a particular note or assessment that she gave you that's your favorite that sort of stuck with you or deepened these characters?

[Rashida Jones]

So many. I mean, I think the truest one for the theme of our movie is this idea that, like, when you've had such a difficult relationship that at a certain point you have to almost acknowledge that the relationship is over and then you can make this decision to start another relationship maybe with each other and maybe with somebody else. Like that to me is like the essence of her teaching and also the essence of this movie, which is like it's about moving on. It's about letting go of a past and really accepting your future as you are, as the other person is, as you want to be and maybe can be with that acceptance.

[Tonya Mosley]

My guests are Rashida Jones and Will McCormack. They're the writing team behind the new film the Invite, directed by Olivia Wilde and starring Seth Rogen, Penelope Cruz and Edward Norton. We'll hear more of their conversation after a short break. I'm Tonya Moseley and this is FRESH AIR WEEKEND.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

This message comes from NPR's sponsor, Shopify. No idea where to sell? Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or high performance, NPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet's best converting checkout to help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your business to the next level today.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer (Ollie/Wise)]

This message comes from Ali. Thinking more about gut health lately, Ali offers a range of science backed supplements designed to support you and your family's daily wellness. From probiotics that help support digestive and immune health to fiber gummies made with kids in mind, Ollie makes it easier to build simple habits into your routine. With options for different needs and lifestyles, finding the right fit can feel more manageable. Explore the full lineup@o l y.com this

[Tonya Mosley]

is FRESH AIR WEEKEND. I'm Tonya Moseley. Let's get back to my interview with Rashida Jones and Will McCormack. They've been creative partners for more than two decades, first as co writers of Celeste and Jessie Forever, and and now with their new film, the Invite, a comedy about two couples and one dinner party that goes places nobody expected. It's directed by Olivia Wilde and stars Wilde, Seth Rogen, Penelope Cruz and Edward Norton. All right, let's talk about this working marriage that the two of you have. And I want to start at the beginning because there is the story that you all met in the late 90s because your, your sister Will felt like that you two should be together. At least go on a date. Tell me the story.

[Will McCormack]

Yeah. Mary and my sister, Mary McCormick, the greatest sister and actress. She was doing a film with Rashida and I think she told you. Rashida, right. You got to meet my brother. You guys are going to be soulmates.

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah. She said soulmates. She said soulmate. She showed me some, like, some picture of you on a sports team from college.

[Will McCormack]

Definitely not college. It'd be high school probably.

[Rashida Jones]

Okay, maybe high school. You were with a bunch of people and some athletic gear. But she was like, this is your sports.

[Will McCormack]

Wait, were you, were you into it?

[Rashida Jones]

Like, I was into it, yeah. Yeah, I was fully into it. I was newly out of a really bad relationship, but you can't even remember

[Tonya Mosley]

what sport it was.

[Will McCormack]

And you don't have to qualify it. Okay.

[Rashida Jones]

I was like, he's cute. He's, he looks intense, which is fine. I'm intense.

[Will McCormack]

Scorpio.

[Rashida Jones]

Scorpio, yeah. Full Scorpio vibes through the picture.

[Will McCormack]

Full Scorpio, Yeah.

[Tonya Mosley]

So you went on the date.

[Will McCormack]

We went on a couple dates.

[Terry Gross]

Right?

[Rashida Jones]

Yeah, yeah, it was, it was pretty casual. I feel like we were like a lot of, it was a lot, a lot of people we didn't like. It wasn't like a, it was like a 90s date where we were like

[Will McCormack]

group dates, you know.

[Rashida Jones]

Group dates. Yeah.

[Will McCormack]

But, yeah, we're, we, you know, we've known each other for so long, but we're like, I mean, we're really like brother and sister who, you know, dated briefly, which is not weird. But, you know, no, we dated for a second. But I think we both knew right from the very beginning that we were connected and that we had to be in each other's lives. And it took us a minute to sit down to write, but finally we did. And I'm So glad we did.

[Tonya Mosley]

Your first film is Celeste and Jessie Forever 2012. And Rashida, you starred opposite Andy Samberg. And Will, you played Skills with a Z at the end, a weed dealer with the wisdom. And it's about a couple whose marriage is over, but the friendship won't die. And I'm curious, once you had to speak words you'd written yourselves, did you discover things that you hear on the page? Because that's an interesting thing, to write something and then to see it turn into something with actors. But then you all being the actors who had to say the words, what was that experience like?

[Rashida Jones]

Well, we. We act while we're writing. Like, that's how we. That's our discovery process of dialogue. Because we're lucky. We. We both started as. As actors and, you know, can do a good job with that. So, so often we act out the scenes, and if it's not working, it doesn't feel right, especially if it's something we're going to say on screen. That's easy to fix, you know.

[Will McCormack]

Yeah. We get it aloud pretty quickly, and that's been helpful. And, you know, having been an actor prior to being a writer, I think we both read thousands of screenplays, and sometimes you feel like, oh, my gosh, has anyone ever said this out loud? So, you know, being actors, we. We get it out loud as soon as possible.

[Tonya Mosley]

As writers, I notice that you all gravitate towards. I don't know if I call it an emotional traffic jam or that moment, that moment of clarity. It's the hard moment. It's the part that we all know it's inevitable that we experience. But why do you want to live there as writers? Like, it almost feels like that's the thing you always are going towards.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Always.

[Rashida Jones]

We are always there, aren't we?

[Lenny Kaye]

Yeah.

[Will McCormack]

I don't mean to sound morbid, and I don't mean it that way, but life is really just a series of losses. It's one loss and one heartbreak after another. You know, when your little summer ends and you don't want it to end, and then you get your heart broken, and then you have kids and they're going to break your heart, and then your parents die, and then you start to lose bone density, and then you start.

[Rashida Jones]

It's like.

[Will McCormack]

But. But I say that because I really believe it, that those are the gifts, right, of being human. Because it's in those moments where we feel the most vulnerable, the most alive. Those moments can actually be the funniest because they're so raw and it's when we feel connected, right? Like, heartbreak is the thing that binds us. Like, no matter who you are or no matter where you are or no matter how old you are, like, you're gonna go through heartache. And when you do, you feel less alone, you feel more connected. Because that is the thing. It's like the great connector. And, you know, for better or for worse. And for the most part, in my work and in our work together, I've been able to, like, dig into those moments because I find it hard for me, personally, to live life without stories that help me get through those moments. I find it actually impossible. Like, I need music, I need poetry, I need films to help me get through those moments because they're really, really hard. And to be able to dig into some of those moments with Rashida has just been such a gift. And, you know, I don't take that for granted to be able to do that for a living.

[Rashida Jones]

I also think that we will. And I like the dissonance of the inevitability of loss and heartbreak and letting go, butting up against the need. Like, the survival skill of waking up every morning and believing in the best of people and believing that things are gonna be okay and believing that, you know, your dreams can come true. That, like, this life that you wanna build can come true. And then, you know, being crushed by realities and circumstance and random things. And then the things that are just built into being alive, like losing people and your kids. You know, like, letting go of your kids from the minute they're born. Like, there's something so interesting to us about this inherent dissonance of being alive. And there's something really funny about it for us. And I think, like, that's the thing that does kind of make us work soulmates, is that we are never above a laugh. There's nothing that's grave enough for us not to laugh about, because that's how we release. That's how we process. Our pain is like, we laugh. We laugh through death and sickness and sadness. And, like, I believe that that's, like. That is the medicine. That's the thing that brings us together. We have to do that.

[Tonya Mosley]

Well, this has been such a pleasure. I really enjoyed the invite and just reviewing all of your work and seeing the through lines. Thank you both so much.

[Rashida Jones]

Thanks, Tanya.

[Will McCormack]

Thanks, Tanya.

[Tonya Mosley]

Rashida Jones and Will McCormack wrote the screenplay for the new film the Invite. It's in theaters now. Terry has our next interview.

[Terry Gross]

My guest, Lenny Kaye, has been Patti Smith's guitarist since the early days when he was a rock critic and she was doing poetry readings. In 1971, when Smith decided she wanted guitar accompaniment for her next reading, it was Kay she asked to join her. With the exception of her long breaks from performing, their partnership continues to this day. Lenny Kay has played with other bands, but finally, at the age of 79, he has a new solo album of his own songs. It shows off his versatility as a guitar player and songwriter. I also love his singing. There's some scorching guitar, tender ballads and songs that made me smile and laugh. Lenny Kay is one of those people who seems to know everything there is to know about rock and pop music. He's written several books related to rock and roll history, including his latest, lightning striking, about 10 transformative periods in rock history and the cities they originated in his record anthology Original artifacts of the first psychedelic era, 1965-68 inspired many first generation punk rockers. Next year will be its 55th anniversary and it's still considered a classic. As proof of his open mind, musical curiosity and wide ranging taste, he wrote a book about the crooners, the singers from the early days of the microphone, which allowed them to sing in more intimate voices like Bing Crosby, Rudy Valli and Russ Colombo. Lenny Kay, welcome back to FRESH air. It is always great to have you on the show and I love the new album.

[Lenny Kaye]

Oh, thank you so much, Terry. It's great to be fresh aired.

[Terry Gross]

It's about time you made your own album. Why did you never do it before and why did you do it now?

[Lenny Kaye]

Well, Terry, I've been slightly busy. I can only really deal with one thing in at a time. And also I didn't quite know how to present myself. This is a different side of what people might expect from me. I felt like these songs kind of had a theme which is who I am at this very moment in time. And I like the fact that there's a progression of my musical consciousness that's reflected in this album. I do a lot of things and a lot of times I kind of duck into somebody else's soundscape. But I thought it was time for me to really understand who I am as an artist. And I wanted artistic closure for some of these songs that I've come up with over the last at this point, 10 or 15 years.

[Terry Gross]

How do you think you've changed musically in what you want to do say, and what you what you want to hear? And I'm thinking like, is it, is it in part age experience?

[Lenny Kaye]

I think it's less a less age and more experience. I've been through so many musical genres in my time. I've. I've sung to you. Some of the great crooners. I love country music. I'm a passable pedal steel guitar player. I love heavy music. I have a band called Adrift, my side project, which is kind of a power trio that accesses the darker side of my personality. But I thought that, in a sense, these songs show a personal thing. When I played them for Patti, she said something to me which I thought was good. She says, I've never heard you sound like this.

[Rashida Jones]

And.

[Lenny Kaye]

And I'm all about the future, Terry. I mean, I have to say I have a long list of things I've done in the past, but to me, that's the past. I really like the fact that I've given myself a new Persona that I can pursue and understand who I am at this point in my life.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I want to play a song that I've never heard a song like it. I've never heard lyrics about this subject before. And it's a really reflective song. It's called the Things yous Leave Behind. And it seems very autobiographical because it's in part about. As you're getting to the end of the line, what do you do with all your stuff? What do you do with all your records? What do you do with the stuff in the storage lockers? Does anybody want to inherit it? Should you be selling it, like, donating it?

[Lenny Kaye]

My daughter always says to me, she says, dad, what are you going to do with it? It's all going in the dumpster. Well, I don't.

[Terry Gross]

Not the dumpster, Please. Not the dumpster.

[Lenny Kaye]

No, no. I mean, you know, I call my accumulation the museum of me. Because, you know, I look at all the books, some of which I'll never read, but I like seeing their spines on the shelf. Of course, you know, the accumulation of records, which is a curation of a sort. And anytime I get rid of a record, I want to hear it a week later. And the song was birthed when someone I knew passed on and I was given the honorary and honorable job of moving their stuff out. And I thought, man, this is. You know, it's a great responsibility to make sure that somebody's sense of curation is honored.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. Well, let's hear it. This is the things you leave behind, written and performed by my guest, Lenny Kay on his new album, Going Local.

[Lenny Kaye]

Sooner or later, we're all gonna find that we've made it to the end of the line. It gets heavier Every mountain you climb it's the things you leave behind it's been one and people keep passing into the past and you're still here Gonna pick up the pieces of your life and theirs who gets what and why we all cart around a whole lot of baggage that would better be left by the side of the road Books and records, old clothes and photos Carry a heavy load but sooner or later

[Terry Gross]

that's the things you leave behind From Lenny Kay's new album, Going Local. What's your plan for the things you leave behind for the records and books? Do you want to, like, donate it to an archive? Do you want to sell it? Do you want to bequeath it to somebody?

[Lenny Kaye]

I mean, actually, I'm amused by the fact that Tom Verlaine's book and record collection have kind of put out into the world. Discogs just sold a thousand of Tom's records. They had an event where you could go and buy a Tom Verlaine book. I'm not that, you know, I mean, who knows that? That's kind of a prideful thing that anybody would want a record that I personally scratched after listening to it for a hundred times. And to be honest, you know, when the time comes and it gets dispersed, I won't know anything about it. I'll be up there with the great file cabinet in the sky thinking, oh, man, I want to hear this record.

[Terry Gross]

My husband decided before he died that he wanted most of his collection, thousands and thousands and thousands of albums and CDs sold, so that record buyers could experience the. The pleasure he got from buying the records, from searching for them, finding them, buying them, listening to them. And I thought there was something really wonderful about that sentiment.

[Lenny Kaye]

They will return to the great flea market in the sky.

[Terry Gross]

You worked at Village Oldies, which was famous record store in Greenwich Village. Yeah. So what did you get out of working in a record store since you're so obsessed with music and with recordings and with making them?

[Lenny Kaye]

I got a lot of records, I'll tell you. I like to joke that I. Well, you know, I like to say that I worked for $10 a day and all the records I could slide out the door. You know, you get a sense of the expanse of recorded music, which is a beautiful thing. I mean, in my crooner book, I got to investigate a world that I didn't personally experience, you know, to understand how in these 78 grooves, an entirely new music was being invented. My lightning striking book is more my personal journey through the many transformative moments of rock and roll.

[Terry Gross]

You know, it's funny because I think at the same time you were working at Village Oldies, which was a stop for, you know, like serious record buyers and all star, just like, you know, people in the neighborhood, tourists. But it was a very, you know, alternative kind of culture. But you also had a band and I think at the same time were playing for fraternities, which seems like a really different culture than Village Oldies culture. Do you feel like you lived in different worlds at the same time?

[Lenny Kaye]

Well, I believe that it's all the same culture. When you're playing in a band, that's that playing in a fraternity party as the Zoo did.

[Terry Gross]

That's the name of your band.

[Lenny Kaye]

Yeah, yeah, the Zoo. Bringing down, you know, for your very own horror show, I think was our thing. We had dancing girls called the Zulus. I know. What can I say?

[Terry Gross]

You can apologize later. Okay.

[Lenny Kaye]

Thank you. But, you know, you'd play shout for 20 minutes and the fraternity brothers would be swimming in beer on the floor. And that's a great response. You know, music releases us, music elevates us. Music illuminates us. You know, and no matter the different styles, this is what I've really found, given all my many, you know, you know, investigations into different genres, is that it's all kind of accessorizing because the basic reasons for a song stay the same. I want love. I don't have love. I'm sad, I've lost love. Who am I? I'm peeved at the world. All of these things are universal. And no matter the decoration or the genre or how it's presented, these are the elements of why we sing. And I'm, of course, quite blessed to be part of those who sing and see it come back to them. In the response of the audience, Linny

[Tonya Mosley]

Kaye speaking with Terry Gross. He's Patti Smith's longtime guitarist, has performed in other bands and now has his first solo album. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. This is FRESH AIR WEEKEND.

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[Tonya Mosley]

l y.com this is FRESH AIR WEEKEND. I'm Tanya Mosley. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Lenny K. He's Patti Smith's longtime guitarist and now has his first solo album. It's called Goin Local.

[Terry Gross]

Let's go back to the beginning. Your first instrument, as far as I know, was accordion, which seems like an unusual choice. If it was a choice, I don't know whether somebody chose it for you. What's the story behind accordion?

[Lenny Kaye]

My dad played the accordion and the piano. I almost wish he would have started me on piano because when I was growing up and rock and roll was getting going, the accordion was not not the most mobile of instruments. But you know, after when I was about 10, I stopped playing it. And then I picked up the guitar when I was getting out of high school.

[Terry Gross]

And that one you knew that was the one for you?

[Lenny Kaye]

Well, you know, folk music was happening originally wanted to be a lonely folk singer in the backyard, but In February of 64, the Beatles came on the Ed Sullivan show. And in that seismic moment, that's when I bought my first electric guitar.

[Terry Gross]

I want to talk about your first brush with professional recording. Your uncle Larry Cusick was a lyricist. Your family name was Cusicoff. If I'm pronouncing that right, yes. Your father changed it to K. Your uncle changed it to Cusick, and he was a lyricist. And among the things he wrote the lyrics for was the love theme from the Godfather, which was a hit for andy Williams in 1972. So let's just hear a little bit of that.

[Lenny Kaye]

Speak softly, love, and hold me warm against your heart. I feel your words. The tender trembling moments start. We're in a world our very own Sharing a love that only few have ever known. Wine colored days warmed by the sun, Deep velvet nights when we are one. I love that line. Wine colored days kissed by the sun, Warm colored nights. My uncle was my uncle wrote a lot of, you know, 60, 70, I have 45s, you know, that nobody ever heard. He was a journeyman songwriter. And when I was 18, he knew I was in a band and he called me up and he wanted to jump on the Eve of Destruction bandwagon and write a folk protest song. And so he had me sing it over the phone. And next thing I knew, I was in a recording studio, first time ever in Times Square.

[Terry Gross]

Well, let's hear the recording that you made for your uncle. And this was, you know, professionally released. And it's called Crazy Like a Fox. So this is my guest, Lenny Kaye, under the name Link Cromwell.

[Lenny Kaye]

They call me neurotic and say I'm psychotic because I let my hair grow

[Rashida Jones]

long

[Lenny Kaye]

they say that I'm crazy and they call me lazy Cause I don't

[Terry Gross]

like to work all day long well

[Lenny Kaye]

I'm crazy like a f oh, I'm crazy like a f. Cuz while they're working on the inside, I'm having fun on the outside oh yeah,

[Terry Gross]

I'm crazy

[Lenny Kaye]

like

[Terry Gross]

foxy they call me neurotic and say I'm psychotic because I let my hair grow long. Your hair is still pretty long.

[Lenny Kaye]

Yeah. You know, thank you, DNA. I mean, I remember when growing your hair long could get you in really big trouble.

[Terry Gross]

I remember that too. Why did you keep it that way? Why. Why is it still long?

[Lenny Kaye]

I don't know. I just like it, you know, it's getting good in the back, as they say. I cut it every once in a while when I feel like my hair is wearing me. I, you know, I cut it back so I get the proportion right. But I don't know, I just like it. It's who I am.

[Terry Gross]

What did that recording do for you in terms of your sense of identity as a possible, like, real professional recording artist?

[Lenny Kaye]

Well, it gave me a sense of who I could be, even though I didn't dare think about it. Gave me a sense of purpose, one might say. But thank God it wasn't a hit, because if it was a hit, my life would have really had a different arc, you know, I would have had that million seller, gotten the drug habit, been found on the streets of San Francisco

[Terry Gross]

or playing at Oldies festival.

[Lenny Kaye]

Yeah, I might be on PBS's Folk Protest Singers of the 1960s, but I believe the musical gods had different ideas for who I might become.

[Terry Gross]

So you started off as a rock critic. You were still playing in a band, but you were a rock critic. You were reviewing records. You wrote for all the pop magazines, but you also wrote for men's magazines. It's through an article that Patti Smith first got in touch with you. This was, I think, in 1971 or two. And you had written about acapella music or doo wop. What did you love about the music and what did she love about the article?

[Lenny Kaye]

It touched Patti very much because it was the kind of music that she listened to growing up in South Jersey and Philadelphia. We both enjoyed Jerry Blavitt, the Gita with the heater, the Boss with the hot sauce, playing beautiful, beautiful group harmony. And when I was growing up in Brooklyn, I would see the older kids on the corner hitting notes, as it were. And that was the first music that touched my soul. I once had hopes to be a high tenor in a doo wop group. Of course, I've completely lost that part of my vocal range, so I'll never achieve that one. But when Patti called me up about this article I'd written for jazz and pop, which was about a very niche thing. A cappella music was doo wop music without, of course, musical instruments. But it was specialized from oldies stores. And this is like 1963, 1962, which meant that the music was already passed, and it was. And of course, it would be knocked off the charts by the English Invasion. But I wrote this article, and that's when Patty first called me up and she said she was moved by it. And that's when she started visiting me at Village Oldies. And I put on our favorite records, My Hero by the Blue Notes, Today's the Day, Maureen Gray, Bristol Stomp. And we just became friendly. And that's where she asked me to join her at St. Mark's Church for her first poetry reading, because she wanted to shake things up a little bit.

[Terry Gross]

Can you describe what that night was like, your first time playing with her? And not that many people were doing, like, music behind poetry.

[Lenny Kaye]

Patti didn't want to do a standard poetry reading. We were opening, quote, unquote, Gerard Malanga. So there were a lot of Warhol people, there were a lot of music people. It was kind of a cross section of downtown. But Patti felt that if she just did a standard poetry reading, Gregory Corso would be up in the balcony, you know, saying, come on, liven it up. And so she wanted to, you know, have a little action. I went over to the loft where she was living with Robert Mapplethorpe, and she read me her poems. And I just kind of put some rhythmic energy behind the poems. And we went there and did it. It was not meant to be anything. We didn't even perform again together for another two and a half years. It was more like an art event. But it was very well received. Again, it was so casual. New York at that Time was just a hotbed of artistic creativity, theater, film, you name it. In that little 10 block circuit of the East Village, so much was happening and this was just another night of going out and, you know, putting on a performance. I always marvel at the fact that we didn't think of it as, oh, hey, let's have a band. I mean, we didn't have a band for another three years. We developed organically and that to me, is what made us so special. We sounded like ourselves by the time we had all the pieces of a real band.

[Terry Gross]

On your first album together, you do Gloria, and it reminds me of Charlie Parker's early recordings in the sense that.

[Lenny Kaye]

Wow, thank you.

[Terry Gross]

And here's why. I mean, both Gloria and Charlie Parker, they start a movement. I mean, Gloria is so punk and it inspired so many punk rockers. And Charlie Parker inspired, like every jazz musician. And so you'd think when you listen to them that it would sound like everything else since so many musicians pattern themselves on it. But both those early Parker recordings and Gloria, every time I listen to either end of those, it just sounds so radical and so fresh and new and energized. Can you talk about, like recording it together? What it was like for you to be doing something that was like, so different and so exciting?

[Lenny Kaye]

It didn't seem that different to us. I mean, here we are, we were basically, we started out as a trio, myself, Patti and the pianist Richard Soule. And what we would do, especially as we were beginning would. Patti would do a poem, we connect it with a song, and then she would improvise. And you could do that in the structure of this little trio. Richard Soule was such an accomplished pianist, except, you know, he could play Rachmaninoff any want that. Sure, he was used to accompanying cabaret singers, but he could also not show off and just hit those chords and keep things propelling. And I'm pretty much of a rhythm guitarist at that point. And so we would just explore these fields, as we call it. Gloria happened because Richard Hell had sold us his bass guitar for $40, and Patty strapped it on and whacked the E note. And then she said, christ died for somebody's sins, but not mine, which was a poem of hers called Oath. And, you know, and then I connected it with the most glorious of songs. Glory, of course, is not only the great Van Morrison song done by every garage band, but it was also a classic doo wop song done by the Cadillacs, Esther Navarro. It seems to be a word that replicates and understands each other. And by the time we got in the studio, it had been sculpted into a kind of quasi arrangement. But launching it in the studio was kind of, you know, made us aware that we were writing ourselves into history, which is kind of daunting in a certain way and somewhat presumptuous.

[Terry Gross]

Well, let's hear Gloria from Patti Smith's first album, Horses, with my guest, Lenny Kay, on guitar. Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine. Milden pot of thieves

[Lenny Kaye]

Wild cord on

[Terry Gross]

my sleeve Thick heart stone My sins, my own they belong to me

[Lenny Kaye]

Me People say beware but I don't care the world suggests rules and regulations to me

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Me

[Lenny Kaye]

Walk in a room,

[Will McCormack]

you

[Lenny Kaye]

know I look so proud I'm wearing this erasmofia where anything's allowed

[Will McCormack]

I'll go

[Terry Gross]

this here party

[Lenny Kaye]

Ah, just get bored.

[Terry Gross]

That's Patti Smith. Lenny Kaye, my guest on guitar from Patti Smith's first album, Horses. What did she bring out in you?

[Lenny Kaye]

She brought out in me a sense of trust in my own musical abilities. I'm not a virtuoso guitarist by any means, but she stayed with me and let me express my musicality. She helped me understand who I am as a musician and how it helped her understand herself as a singer. Because Patti learned how to sing on the stage with the band, she also sensed a positive energy in me that I could go anywhere. I'm not hidebound by genre or how things should be done. And Patti, of course, is a creative force that continues to move ever forward. She's not one to rest on her laurels. She wants to see what happens next, and she encourages that in me. And I think, to be honest, that I have a solo album at this point in my life shows that. I also understand that. That you have to keep evolving. You have to keep moving forward. You have to be true to. You can't be blinded by fame or money. I'm a worker. That's really what she encouraged in me. She's a worker, too. No matter what we did yesterday or five years ago or 10 years ago, or at this point, 55 years ago, it's all about the future. She has an expression. Progress isn't the future, it's keeping up with the present. And so I try to incorporate that in my life. Whatever I've done in the past, great. But what I'm really interested in is getting up and seeing who I am today. And as it moves into tomorrow.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I want to close with another song from your new album, and I want to play A Friend like youe.

[Lenny Kaye]

Would you talk about the song A Friend like youe. I heard the original French version by Stephane Eicher when I was in Paris in the 90s, and I just loved the song. I bought it and I brought it home and I always thought I would like to write English lyrics to this. And so I did. I recorded it. It's actually one of my favorite songs on the record. And when I finished it, I sent it to Stefan and he loved it. So, you know, I guess I kind of did what my uncle did with Nino Roda's music. I took Stephan Eicher's music and spun it into English.

[Terry Gross]

So this is A Friend like youe from Lenny Kaye's new album, Going Local. Lenny Kaye, it has been such a pleasure to have you back on the show.

[Lenny Kaye]

Thank you.

[Tonya Mosley]

Lenny Kay speaking with Terry Gross. FRESH AIR WEEKEND is produced by Theresa Madden. FRESH air's executive producer is Sam Brigger with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Mosley.

[Lenny Kaye]

If you forget about me far away, you know I will return. Of all the places I've been or we'll see. It's you that my heart yearns. And in the darkest nights you're a light, a glow that never goes. You reach out to me tenderly. And so our story goes because a friend like you.

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[Lenny Kaye]

The last time Antonio Mays Sr. Heard from his son, it was in a note the 16 year old left in the family's garage.

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He told me he was going to make me proud.

[Lenny Kaye]

Antonio Jr. Left home to join a protest in Seattle. A week later, he was shot and killed there. I need some arrest made justice for my son. Listen to We Keep Us Safe on the Embedded podcast from npr.