Tonya Moseley (2:35)

This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Tanya Moseley. My guest today is filmmaker Craig Brewer. He built a career telling stories about people chasing dignity and purpose through music. He first broke out with Hustle and Flow. That was back in 2005, about a Memphis pimp trying to make it as a rapper. Since then, his work has moved across genres from Black Snake Moan to Footloose to Dolemite Is My Name and Coming to America. His new film is called Song Sung Blue and it's based on the true story of Mike and Claire Sardina, a couple from Milwaukee who met in the late 80s and built a life around their Neil diamond tribute band, Lightning and Thunder. They played bars, small venues, and over time became local celebrities. Eddie Vedder even invited them to open for Pearl Jam. In the film, they're played by Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson. In this scene, we find them on their very first date, just getting to know each other. Jackman's character starts to open up about his sobriety, what he's learned along the way and his long held desire to perform.

Will Arnett (3:40)

I'm always gonna be an alcoholic, but I've been sober 20 years. The other day it was, well, they call it a sober birthday.

Maureen Corrigan (3:46)

Happy birthday.

Will Arnett (3:47)

Belated sober birthday. Here's the thing with sobriety. Yeah. You gotta face up to certain truths. Way to go, Lightning. 20 years. All right. I'm not a songwriter, I'm not a sex symbol, but I just want to entertain people and I want to make a living.

Maureen Corrigan (4:01)

I know, Me too.

Midi Health / NPR Sponsor Announcer (4:02)

I don't want to be a hairdresser. I want to sing. I want to dance. I want a house. I want a garden.

Tonya Moseley (4:06)

I want a cat.

Will Arnett (4:07)

So here's what I'm thinking. I need a hook. I need something big. I need something new. And as you put it, nostalgia pays.

Tonya Moseley (4:18)

It's been over two decades since Brewer made Hustle and Flow, the film that changed his life. The late director John Singleton believed in the project so deeply that he put down his own house as collateral to finance it. Hustle and Flow went on to win several awards, including an Academy Award for best original song for It's Hard Out Here for a Pimp. Brewer still lives in Memphis, and he's described Song Sung Blue as a little bit of a brother to Hustle and Flow. Craig Brewer, welcome back to FRESH air.

Craig Brewer (4:49)

It's great to be here. Thank you for having me.

Terry Gross (4:52)

Thank you for being here. This story, Song Sung Blue and Mike and Claire's story, who are real people, it took hold of you some time ago. You saw a documentary about them back in 2009. And I actually want to play a clip where Mike and Claire, played by Hugh Jackman and Kate, they've narrowed in on this idea of being a tribute band for Neil diamond and they're practicing in this clip in Claire's home. They're kind of really getting it started. And she shares a home with her mother. So you'll also hear her mother in this clip. Let's listen.

Will Arnett (5:27)

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Tell your mama, girl. We can't stay long. We got things we gotta catch up on, you know? You know what I'm saying?

Terry Gross (5:47)

Excuse me.

Tonya Moseley (5:49)

Much too late for anyone to be singing that loud.

Will Arnett (5:52)

Ma, this is the man I was.

Midi Health / NPR Sponsor Announcer (5:54)

Telling you about, Mike Sardina, this is Lightning.

Will Arnett (5:56)

How you doing tonight?

Maureen Corrigan (5:58)

Not good.

Tonya Moseley (6:00)

Sing softer.

Terry Gross (6:04)

That's where we get to hear Hugh Jackman's pipes. I mean, I think we've kind of known, if you follow him in theater, that he can really sing.

Craig Brewer (6:10)

Yeah, he can. He loves it. It takes everything to just pull him off that stage if he's in the mode of entertaining. He loves it. He really does. And then Kate is the big surprise to, I'm sure a lot of people who are seeing the movie that she's just got an incredible voice, Right.

Terry Gross (6:26)

And their voices together work in harmony, so. Well, is it true that you pre recorded all of the music in Memphis before you started shooting?

Craig Brewer (6:34)

I did, I did. I have the same music collaborator and composer and producer. His name is Scott Bomar, and he did. He did all the score and recording for Hustle and Flow, for all the blues music and Blacksnake Moan. But, yeah, we know all the old Stax musicians and people that, like, recorded with Willie Mitchell and Al Green, and there's just a real wealth of talent here in Memphis. I just kind of feel very comfortable working in the studios here. And I would say that I probably learned the most about directing actors by watching really good producers and reading about Memphis producers working with talent. It's kind of just my groove, you know?

Terry Gross (7:24)

Well, that's so interesting because you've said that in the studio is where you actually saw Jackman and Hudson figure out their characters. So it's not necessarily in the rehearsals on a, you know, on a set, but in the recording studio singing together. And I was just curious, what did you see happening between them and in those sessions?

Craig Brewer (7:46)

Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I still believe that, like, really good music producing is trying to find the spark of the moment. Like, there's just. You're not trying to get too technical to tell somebody to hit a note here or there. You kind of want to just capture something really real and provide an environment where they can be that real. And so we were keeping, like, Hugh in one isolation booth and Kate in another isolation booth, and it just really wasn't working. So Scott and I, we put a couch out, and we just put two microphones in front of the couch, and we just sat them right next to each other on the couch. And it's so funny because it's so perfect, because sometimes people have asked me, like, hey, if I'm having, like, relationship trouble, what should I do? And I go, I know this sounds odd, but go out to dinner, but just sit at the bar. I go, there's something about facing each other that is this confrontational act to some extent. But if you're side by side, you know, you can kind of just. Two people kind of dealing with their own things, you know? But there's a closeness that happens that is different than facing each other at dinner. And I think the same thing happened with you and Kate. We didn't do any rehearsals. We had one read through, and then we sat them down and threw them right into the mix of having to figure out their harmonies and, like, when they're going to come in. And by the end of the day, and you got to remember, these are two actors that really didn't know each other and met on this day.

Terry Gross (9:12)

Oh, they had never met in person or at all before this.

Craig Brewer (9:15)

We had done some phone calls and a zoom call at one point, but no, no.

Terry Gross (9:21)

How did you know that they'd have chemistry? Was that a fear at all?

Craig Brewer (9:24)

Oh, it's a fear. It doesn't matter how charismatic your actors are. There's still that alchemy that happens of, like, two people coming together and how are they going to respond to each other? But my fears went away at the end of that day recording, because they started really just. They felt married suddenly. I mean, it was kind of like, you know, she'd be like, no, you didn't really get that note. We could do that one more time, Craig.

Terry (9:49)

One more.

Craig Brewer (9:50)

And it's just like, suddenly she was being protective of you and vice versa. And then suddenly they're connected. And then the next day, we did a camera test, and they were dressed up in their outfits, and we threw on the song that you just heard, like, Cherry, Cherry, and they started singing along to it. And I turned around and I could just see the whole crew just stop what they were doing, and this grin on all their face and just watching them on the monitors, and they're like, oh, there they are. It's like, there's the couple I didn't know I needed to see. And to me, it just kind of. It was Kind of cool because you have Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson, who both kind of popped in the 90s more than 20 years ago. And now we're seeing them, and they're older and yet they still have the spark. And it just felt real. It felt grounded and lovely.

Terry Gross (10:48)

The crew's response, it makes me think about something else. I've heard you say that men on your crew were actually getting emotional watching Hugh telling you he reminded them of their fathers or themselves when he was performing, like, the anthems of the things that they couldn't say. What were you seeing in those moments?

Craig Brewer (11:10)

Yeah, I mean, it was definitely in the music, but definitely in more of the moments where he had to be a dad. And I found it so fascinating because I would actually go around to some of my crew members. I mean, these are like tough grips and electricians and everything, but they would get emotional watching them. And I was like, what's going on here? Like, what's happening? And we started having conversations about, like, well, what are the movies that men cry in? I'm being general here. You know, I cry every movie I see. But why is it that Field of Dreams just unashamedly makes men cry? You know, it's like, okay, you're dealing with father themes. You're dealing with themes of, am I able to, like, honor my family? Like, am I able to take care of my family? And do they. Does anybody know perhaps, even though I'm kind of quiet, that I am suffering with it? And I think that there's been a lot of. Probably justifiably and understandably, there has been a lot of criticism towards masculinity. And I think that the interesting thing that I've heard in some of the test audiences is some women saying, it's nice to see positive masculinity. An era of men that if something's not exactly the way everybody would want it, they're still making it work. They're just patching themselves up and in silence, moving forward. And it was a nice way to see that or celebrate that in a character. And there is something happening there.

Terry Gross (12:44)

I'm going to spoil one thing from the film to tell everyone that you make us wait for Sweet Caroline. How did you think about withholding the thing that everyone expects?

Craig Brewer (13:01)

I know it sounds like such a horrible thing that I've done, but I get it. What was happening to me is that I was writing, I was getting ready to work on the movie, and so people go, what are you making right now? And I'd be like, well, I want to make this movie about this Neil diamond tribute band. And they would say, oh, are you going to do Sweet Caroline? I said, yes, we're going to do Sweet Caroline. Every single person I talked to, that was the first thing out of their mouth. Are they going to sing Sweet Caroline? And I was like, yes, yes. We're also going to do Forever in Blue Jeans and I'm a Believer and Play Me and Cherry Cherry. Like, I started bringing up all the, you know, he's got other songs. You know, I'm even. I'm even mad that I'm not going to be able to do all the songs I want to do. I don't think I have enough room. So I put that element in the movie, knowing full well that everyone, even people who don't know Neil diamond are like, I know one Neil diamond song. And it's because I've been drunk at a bar and someone started singing Sweet Caroline. And I knew you come in on bom bom bom. And so good, so good, so good. And so it was this thing that I always knew, like, man, when that song hits, you better really land it. Like, it's got to be good, but you have to, like, lay some seed for it. You need to, like, tease your audience. And so I don't keep it from it for a long time. I mean, it's probably what, maybe like 30 minutes into the movie, maybe right around there that I a little bit before then it's a. It's a great moment when it happens, but there's so many other amazing music moments.

Tonya Moseley (14:26)

We're listening to my conversation with filmmaker Craig Brewer, director of Song Sung Blue. We'll hear more of our conversation after a short break. I'm Tonya Moseley, and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

Will Arnett (14:53)

Where it began. I can begin to know when, but then I know it's growing strong. I was in the spring and spring became the summer. Who'd have believed you'd come along? Hands touching hands reaching out touching me cha cha you.

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Tonya Moseley (16:48)

Let's get back to my interview with Craig Brewer, director of the new movie Song Sung Blue featuring Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson. It's based on the true story of Mike and Claire Sardina, a couple from Milwaukee who built a life around their Neil diamond tribute act, Lightning and Thunder.

Terry Gross (17:05)

Claire, she's still alive. She's still performing, actually, under the name Thunder After Lightning. Because Mike died in 2006.

Craig Brewer (17:16)

Yes.

Terry Gross (17:16)

And, you know, I think when as I was watching the film, I was thinking about also knowing what would happen that he spent his entire adult life devoted to Neil Diamond's music, but he never got to meet him.

Tonya Moseley (17:29)

And there's something almost unbearable about that.

Terry Gross (17:32)

How did you sit with that when you first learned it?

Craig Brewer (17:34)

Well, it's tricky because there's a part of me that goes, oh, that's so sad. And then there's another part of me that goes, oh, it's so perfect. It really is. You know, I really love my father. He was in shipping, but he loved movies and going to plays. And we. That was probably the way that we threw the ball around in our own way, was going to see movies together. And when I wrote my first movie, I sent it off to my dad and he read it and he gave me such a great final thing to say to me where he was like, don't be afraid. Film this movie with no money and a digital video camera and don't apologize for it. And it was the last thing he said to me because later on he died of a sudden heart attack. And he was a healthy guy. And my mother gave me 20 grand of inheritance that I got from his passing, and I made my first film with it. And I sometimes think about how my father's never met my children. My father has never seen any of my films, but he's completely responsible for it all. His driving force and the final things that he said to me. And just everything kind of like filled me with this desire to do the best. And so I just remember when I saw the documentary and I was like, this guy poured everything he could into the love of Neil diamond and claimed that the music of Neil diamond saved him. And Kept him sober and helped him deal with the visions of Vietnam that he had experienced as a tunnel rat and yet did not get to meet him. You know, even when Neil diamond was coming into town, he passed before that could happen. I mean, later, of course, Claire got to meet him. There's a wonderful picture of the two of them in the documentary where Neil Diamond's holding onto Claire Sardina. And you know, he always had a standing ticket at all the shows for her. And so it's bittersweet because it's the thing that's sad, but I remember seeing it and this weird part of me inside was going like, that's kind of perfect for story. You know, people are gonna, they're gonna be mad that he never got to meet him.

Terry Gross (19:42)

Craig, you mentioned your father who loomed large in your life. Every time I hear you talk about him, I, I just have so many questions I want to ask you about your relationship. You mentioned that he read your first film, which is the Poor and the Hungry, and he told you he gave you some advice on how to move forward with that because it was a really kind of a tough time for you. You had been working to try to fulfill this dream of being a filmmaker. You had already made that decision, but you were kind of striking out. You were in debt, you were just trying to like figure out how you're gonna do. And he told you to keep it simple. What stayed with you most about that conversation that you had with him? Because he died soon after, like very soon after. Almost like the next day or later that day.

Craig Brewer (20:39)

Yeah, later that day. Yeah, it's. You know, I think I've been thinking about it a little bit more now because I'm now exactly five years older than my father ever was. And it is a strange thing, I'm sure, for anybody out there that's had that happen when you kind of lap your parent, especially when they died unexpectedly early because you've looked at all these pictures and everything and you think, oh yeah, he was just so much older than I was, so much more of a grown up. But now I'm looking at pictures and I'm doing the math and I'm like, wait a minute, I think he was 43 in this picture. And then I think back on my own 43 year old, like, oh, wow, was he kind of dealing with that? So I think what, I think of it more as just as now I'm a parent with a 24 year old son and a 17 year old daughter and am I saying the right things to them? Am I trying to give them some encouragement? It's such a tough time when you're a young adult, and you. You want to be something so badly, you want to be anything. Maybe you're even searching for it. And there's so many moments where you can feel like a failure. And I think he just. You know, as I tell people I go as a dad, he stuck the landing. I mean, like, the last thing he told me was, you know, just look at what you have and try not to apologize for it and try to do. Move the dream to your reality and don't try to do it the other way. And I think that's ultimately what helped me find perhaps my voice a little bit more, was to think about, like, well, what are the real basic rudiments of this story? And am I maybe. Do I have the danger of getting in the way of it by just trying to make it larger than it should be when it should probably be simple or even more effective that way? And so I. I think that maybe it was just because he was very much into kind of like, corporate planning that he just. It's like, well, what do we have and what can we do and what do we want and what's the ultimate goal? And I think I just couldn't see the forest for the trees a little bit.

Terry Gross (22:56)

The poor and the hungry. You took that $20,000 inheritance that your dad left for you, and you made this film. It's a love story between a car thief and a cellist whose car he stole. But really, it's about people living on the margins and trying to find something honorable or clean in the middle of the hustle. There is a rawness and a richness to it. And I want to make a point to say this is the year 2000. In what ways did your dad's voice direct you through the making?

Craig Brewer (23:30)

Well, I think that. Because the thing that had really depressed me is that I tried to make a film before this that I tried to shoot on film, and I didn't quite know what I was doing, but I was hearing from everybody that this is what was going to get me into Sundance or get me into the industry, is that it had to be shot on film. And he really. On that phone call, he was like, it sounds to me like you're trying to get in and you're not trying to get good. And, yeah, kind of stings, doesn't it?

Terry (24:03)

Right?

Craig Brewer (24:05)

And it's like, it's so true. And I have to say, even. Even today, when I'm talking to Young filmmakers, you want to be careful, because sometimes they'll come up to me and they're like, look, I got this whole idea for a franchise. It's kind of this superhero movie and blah, blah, blah. And they start going into it, and I want them to stay inspired and to keep talking. But there's another part of me that wants to just say, like, here's what my dad would probably say, is that you don't have the tools to produce this, so you need to maybe redirect some of your thoughts and your passion to wanting to make something towards your own life and trust that your own life might actually be more interesting than explosions on another planet. And I think that that's really the big lesson with it all. Just to try to. Just to the best of my ability. We produced plays of mine right after I graduated high school. And, you know, I did a lot in high school as well. But after high school, the two of us formed a company that was just called. I mean, we didn't form a company. It was like that we had an account. And the account you and your dad was for two brewers. And so the account abbreviation was BR2, which later, when my father passed away, that was the name of my company, and it's now still a family company. My daughter made a short film just recently, and she actually. It was a big teary moment when she said, I'd like to restart BR2 again. So that was the account number that my dad and I had when we would produce these small plays that I wrote and I directed. And he would be counting the people in the audience to see if we had a break even for that night. And I would be thinking about the play. But he still was a big believer in trying to keep costs down and doing things that didn't have sets it could be done on a black box stage. And that kind of translated into film for me. And oddly enough, I still think about it. I still think, is there a better, more emotional way to do this scene instead of what I initially wrote? Like, oh, it's gonna be on this big bridge. It'll be at night in the rain. And it's like, now I'm thinking of all the problems that are gonna happen with it, as opposed to maybe there's something that's more attainable and more meaningful. And that's really what I got from dad.

Terry Gross (26:23)

That's so interesting, what you got from your father and what you share with these young filmmakers, because I'm also thinking about Hustle and you. I think I've Heard you say that. It's sort of a reflection of you and your wife making the poor and the hungry. That scrappiness and that resourcefulness. Kind of the same journey as the characters in Hustle and Flow, DJ and Shug.

Craig Brewer (26:47)

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, without like, you know, apples to apples comparison, like, I am.

Tonya Moseley (26:56)

Yeah, you're not a pimp.

Terry Gross (26:57)

Trying to.

Craig Brewer (26:58)

I'm not a pimp. I'm not a. Yeah. But I really. You know, when I was making that first film, my wife was pregnant with our first child. We were living in a small house in Memphis. I couldn't edit the movie and have air conditioning through our window unit at the same time. So I'd have to get, like, my room really, really cool and cold in August. And then I'd turn it off and then I could turn on my computer because the circuit breaker would blow. That scrappiness you see in Hustle and Flow is really about us making my first film and the struggles to try to make it. And also that to be a director sometimes is to be a manipulator. And you're kind of trying to get everybody around you to share your vision and try to in a weird way, sometimes you angle it where it's. You think it's best for them, but they're ultimately there to help you.

Terry Gross (27:57)

This has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time and thank you for your work.

Craig Brewer (28:02)

Oh, thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that.

Tonya Moseley (28:05)

Craig Brewer's new film is Song Sung Blue. Ben Markovitz's novel the Rest of Our Lives, was shortlisted for the 2025 Booker Prize and has just been published in the U.S. our book critic, Maureen Corrigan, says it's the perfect little literary novel to curl up with, especially if winter weather has you feeling cooped up. Here's her review.

Maureen Corrigan (28:28)

Tom Laywort, the narrator and main character of Ben Markovitz's new novel, the Rest of Our Lives, introduces himself in a curious way. On the very first page of the book, he talks matter of factly about the affair his wife Amy had 12 years ago. When their two kids were young. Amy, who's Jewish, got involved at a local synagogue in Westchester. Tom, who was raised Catholic and clearly not a joiner, remained on the sidelines at the synagogue. Amy met Zack Zersky, who Tom describes as the kind of guy who danced with all the old ladies and little pigtailed girls at a bar mitzvah so he could also put his arm around the pretty mother's and nobody would complain. After the affair came out, Tom and Amy decided to stay together for the kids, a boy named Michael and his younger sister, Miriam. But, Tom tells us, I also made a deal with myself. When Miriam goes to college, you can leave too. The deal, Tom says, helped me get through the first few months, when we had to pretend that everything was fine. Twelve years have since passed, and the marriage has settled back into a state of okayness. Miriam, now 18, is starting college in Pittsburgh, and because Amy is having a tough time with Miriam's departure, Tom alone drives her to campus. And once Tom drops Miriam off, he just keeps driving westward without explanation to us or to himself, as though he's a passenger in a driverless car that has decided to carry him across the mighty Allegheny and keep on going. The three page scene here, where Tom passively melds into the transcontinental traffic flow, constitutes a masterclass on how to write about a character who is opaque to himself. You don't feel anything about anything, amy says early on to Tom, an accusation that's pretty much echoed by Tom's old college girlfriend, Jill, whom he spontaneously drops in on at her home in Las Vegas after being out of touch for roughly 30 years. But if Tom is distanced from his own feelings and vague about the issue he had with a couple of students that forced him to take a leave from teaching in law school, he's a sharp diagnostician of other people's behavior. What fuels this road trip is Tom's voice, by turns wry, mournful, and oh so casually astute. There's a strain of Richard Ford and John Updike in Tom's tone, which I mean as a high compliment. Take, for instance, how Tom chats to us readers about a married couple who are old friends of his and Amy's. Chrissy was maybe one of those women who derive secret energy from the troubles of her friends. Her husband, Dick, was a perfectly good guy, about six two, fat and healthy, he worked for an online tech platform. I really don't know what he did. So might most of us be summed up for posterity as Tom racks up miles, taking detours to visit other folks out of his past, like his semi estranged brother, his meandering road trip a cruise in suspense? There's something else he's subconsciously speeding away from here besides his marriage. Tom tells us at the outset that he's suffering from symptoms his doctors ascribe to long Covid dizziness and morning face swelling so severe that daughter Miriam jokingly calls him Puff Daddy. Shortly after he reaches the Pacific. Tom also lands in the hospital. Getting out of the hospital, Tom dryly comments, is like escaping a casino. They don't make it easy for you. The canon of road trip stories in American literature is vast, even more so if you count other modes of transportation besides cars, like, say, rafts. But the most memorable road trips, like the rest of our lives, notice the easy to miss signposts marking life, forks in the road and looming mortality that make the journey itself everything.

Tonya Moseley (33:14)

Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. Coming up, we hear from Will Arnett. He stars in the new film Is this Thing On? I'm Tonya Moseley and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

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Terry (34:16)

Happy New Year.

Craig Brewer (34:17)

Want to set goals that you'll actually.

Midi Health / NPR Sponsor Announcer (34:19)

Stick to in 2026?

Terry (34:21)

You want to accept yourself in the situation you're in, but you also want.

Maureen Corrigan (34:24)

To expect more from yourself and say.

Craig Brewer (34:26)

What are the ways that I can grow?

Midi Health / NPR Sponsor Announcer (34:28)

This week, how to design and plan.

Craig Brewer (34:30)

Your year on the Life Kit podcast.

Tonya Moseley (34:33)

Listen in the NPR app or wherever.

Craig Brewer (34:35)

You get your podcasts.

Tonya Moseley (34:39)

Here's Terry with our next interview.

Terry (34:42)

My guest is Will Arnett. He co wrote and stars in the new movie Is this Thing On? He was one of the stars of this series, Arrested Development, played the title role in the animated satirical series for adults, BoJack Horseman, and was Batman in the animated Lego Batman series. He also co hosts the podcast Smartless with his longtime friends Jason Bateman, who also starred in Arrested Development, and Sean Hayes, who has a small part in Arnett's new film. Another longtime friend of Arnett's, Bradley Cooper, directed the new film and plays Arnett's self absorbed best friend. The story is adapted from the true story of the British comic John Bishop. The film's title Is this Thing On? Has a double meaning. It's what a lot of people say when they first get to a microphone. It also refers to whether Will Arnett's character's marriage is on or off. The movie is a hybrid of comedy and drama focused on the anger and resentments that can undermine a marriage and how your sense of identity can change if you're lucky enough to discover work that is meaningful to you. Arnett plays a middle aged father of two whose marriage has fallen apart. He and his wife, played by Laura Dern, are separated and he's feeling lonely and miserable. One evening while aimlessly walking down a Manhattan street, he sees a restaurant with a comedy club downstairs. Admission requires a $15 cover charge, but if you sign up to perform, the COVID charge is waived. So he signs up because he doesn't have the cash. When his name is called and he gets on stage, he has no clue what to do. He freezes for a while and then starts talking about the current state of his life.

Will Arnett (36:27)

I think I'm getting a divorce. What tipped me off was that I'm living in an apartment on my own. Yeah. And my wife and kids don't live there. That was probably the biggest clue.

Terry (36:48)

Will Arnett, welcome back to FRESH air. Thank you for coming today. And that scene is so good. It's so much fun to watch. You feel so uncomfortable and you're actually very funny, even though you're totally insecure and unprepared to be doing standup at that point in your story. So I know in preparation you went to comedy club open mic nights. Did you stay in the audience or perform?

Will Arnett (37:14)

No, I performed. I went to the Comedy Cellar almost every night for about six weeks and performed under the name of Alex Novak, kind of in an attempt to understand what it was like A, to do stand up because I'm not A, stand up and I'd never done it before, and B, to see what it was like to do it through the eyes of somebody who's never performed in any capacity really. So that was kind of that was the assignment for me.

Terry (37:46)

Why didn't people recognize you?

Will Arnett (37:50)

Well, I think some did, Terry. Some people recognized me and were confused as to what I was doing because I would they'd introduce me as Alex Novak and I'd sort of reinforce that, say, hi, I'm Alex Novak. And people would laugh nervously. The people who did recognize me, the people who didn't recognize me, I guess was just because they're not fans of my films or TV shows. Certainly people were, you know, a lot of my set, especially that first set that you played in the clip where I'm talking about Getting divorced, I think it did confuse people. And people would be Googling me in real time trying to figure out what was going on, thinking like, oh, wait, I didn't know this guy got married again.

Terry (38:32)

Not again.

Will Arnett (38:33)

Yeah.

Terry (38:34)

So did you try to be good or try to be stumbly?

Will Arnett (38:37)

Well, I tried to be sensitive to the material. So I was using sets that we had written for the film. So I go out and I do the first set. And then during the day I'd be at home a couple blocks away in New York, rewriting the sets and trying to figure out really trying to get it to a place that worked for the context that we were looking for, which is this guy who's never done it before. So I'd go and I'd rework it and rework it. And then, you know, one night I might go out and go around the corner to the underground, all part of the comedy cellar, and do the third set and then go around the corner downstairs, the underground, and do the first set again. And just keep working on these various sets, but always trying to track, you know, his development as a standup and so that all of those pieces work and not just his development as a standup because those sets are also affected by where Alex is in our story and where he is with his relationship with his estranged wife and all these things, and they all affect how he performs and how he is on stage.

Terry (39:50)

The kind of story this is about two people who are dissatisfied with their lives at the moment and are like, looking for a new sense of identity which they feel they're lacking. Why did you want to, like, tell the story from a more middle aged point of view? And I know it's based on a real comic and, you know, a British comic who I think is well known in England, but not here. John Bishop is his name. What appealed to you about the idea of a middle aged couple looking to, like, find new identities and find some satisfaction in their work?

Will Arnett (40:31)

First of all, when I met John Bishop and he told me this story of how he became a standup and, you know, he is a very successful standup in the uk. He's a really funny guy. He's a really funny standup. I was drawn less to the idea of him kind of becoming successful out of nowhere and more to the idea of he found a thing that allowed him to kind of reconnect to himself and his wife. He had gotten so far down the road in his life and that he and his partner, his wife Mel, he described that there was no big event that there was nothing that they had just simply, you know, you can say whatever you want, grew apart or whatever, but they weren't communicating. And they were frustrated in their lives and they were frustrated with their lots, but they didn't have the language to even talk to each other anymore. And that was the thing that really got me. So we ended up, you know, we focus less on in our story. Alex does not become a famous stand up. John told me recently that for him, you know, that becoming a successful stand up was really the icing on the cake of which which was reconnecting with his wife, with Mel. And so that that stuck with me. I don't think it's uncommon. I think it's a real reflection of what a lot of people who are middle aged, I guess, do go through. And you get. I think that sometimes you get resigned to the idea that this is your lot and this is what it's going to be. And sometimes it's really a matter of you need to find the language or to start to really connect with who you are.

Terry (42:18)

There's a scene, and I don't think I'm giving too much away here. When they're trying to stay together or get back together. Where your character asks his wife, he said, like, I know this about couples therapy that like one of the standard questions is, tell me something about myself that you hate about me. And I think like, that's the kind of thing that could really go bad. I can imagine that becoming a real nightmare. I can also see a bit of self reflection being the result of that and self knowledge that you weren't aware of before. I'm wondering if you've ever tried that approach and how did it go?

Will Arnett (43:05)

I think that there is from my own life at this stage, I'm much more willing to be honest about where I am. And certainly Bradley and I is something that we talk about, which it's really important. Something that maybe you sort of avoid when you're younger, I think, and as you get older you just kind of. You get to the point where like you might as well just say and be honest. And you have to allow people to have their own reaction to what you say. And sometimes you. So to instigate that, you have to say, like, all right, tell me the thing. Like just what is the thing that I do that drives you crazy? Just say it. And I. At the risk of blowing it all apart. And I think that's really important. I think I'm much more willing to get in the deep water now myself than I was when I was a younger man, for sure.

Terry (44:04)

Your voice, I don't think it's just me. The way I hear it. Your voice has gotten deeper over the years. Am I right about that?

Will Arnett (44:11)

Yeah, probably, I think. Has yours?

Terry (44:15)

Oh, my voice has completely changed. Yeah.

Will Arnett (44:17)

Yeah. I mean, I realized.

Terry (44:21)

Higher, I think.

Will Arnett (44:22)

Really? You think it's gotten higher?

Terry (44:24)

No, no, in the past. It was when I started.

Will Arnett (44:26)

Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I noticed it with Howard Stern, who I've known for a long time, and I listened to some old clips and, like, Howard Sports. Yeah, I think that that's what happens. But certainly, yeah, I think it has gone deeper.

Terry (44:41)

Were you a smoker?

Will Arnett (44:43)

Well, I mean. No comment. Who do you work for, Terry?

Terry (44:49)

The tobacco industry. So is how you're cast differently with the lower voice?

Will Arnett (44:58)

Well, you know, when I was. I think I always had a kind of a gravelly or whatever you want to call it, sandpapery, some people might call it annoying voice.

Terry (45:10)

I would not.

Will Arnett (45:11)

There are people. And so when I was younger, when I first moved to New York, I looked much younger than my age. I had a sort of a baby face. And weirdly enough, I knew back then that it was going to. That it didn't quite match, and it was maybe gonna affect getting roles, at least that's what I would tell myself if I didn't get a role because of my voice. So it took a while to kind of grow, I think, grow into it a little bit.

Terry (45:42)

I think your voice probably helped you get all the voiceover work. That was basically the way you made a living for several years.

Will Arnett (45:51)

Yes.

Terry (45:52)

Yeah. And so you were so funny with Conan o' Brien on his TBS show. And, you know, you're both so funny. So I want to play a clip from that show, and that goes back a few years to 2021. And you were talking about your voiceover work, and then you demonstrated some of your voices, so. Okay. And we'll hear Andy Richter, Conan's sidekick on that show, say a few words during the clip. So here's you and CONAN Bryan in 2021.

Craig Brewer (46:30)

You've got the best pipes in the business.

Will Arnett (46:32)

His voice. Thank you. Is so incredible.

Craig Brewer (46:35)

Yeah, I try to get voiceover work.

Will Arnett (46:37)

And I'm like, buy this product. Yeah. Yeah.

Craig Brewer (46:41)

That's the response I get.

Maureen Corrigan (46:43)

I don't get.

Craig Brewer (46:43)

Well, they also like the ads to be more specific.

Will Arnett (46:46)

Yeah, I know. That's true.

Craig Brewer (46:47)

That was a little bit.

Will Arnett (46:48)

But that's obviously for great Smith apples.

NPR Sponsor Announcer (46:50)

Right?

Will Arnett (46:52)

Granny Smith apples.

Maureen Corrigan (46:53)

They're real good.

Will Arnett (46:55)

No, it's. No, I Do voiceover is a great thing, and I do a lot. And actually, to be honest, coming here today, I'm kind of behind on a couple of jobs. Would you mind while I'm here, because you guys are mic'd up and stuff. Would you mind if I just did a couple. You want to do some voiceover recordings? Yeah, that's okay. Don't worry about it.

Craig Brewer (47:13)

I don't think it's appropriate.

Will Arnett (47:15)

You guys have lots of equipment here, and I brought my. My setup with me. Okay, that's ridiculous. I brought my setup. I can't believe I didn't see that back then. Just a little.

Craig Brewer (47:23)

So you're gonna just do a voiceover or two?

Will Arnett (47:25)

I'm just gonna do a couple things and just stay within three. You might not plug the headphones in. Innovative, creative, and tough as nails. That's the American spirit. And that's the all new GMC Sierra 1500 pickup truck. Yeah, okay, we got that. We're just gonna keep rolling here. Cause we're rolling.

Craig Brewer (47:46)

Let's roll another.

Terry (47:47)

Roll in.

Craig Brewer (47:47)

Roll in.

Will Arnett (47:48)

Hey, girl, I love your smile. Crest white strips. Yeah, that's good. Banging them out. We're banging them out. We're done. Oh, we're not done here.

Craig Brewer (47:57)

Hang on, Just.

Will Arnett (47:58)

We're still rolling here. Here we go. Three, two, one. Flamin's racist butter. Spread it all around. Wait a minute. That couldn't be a product. Yep. Is that butter for racist people or.

Craig Brewer (48:14)

Is the butter itself racist?

Will Arnett (48:16)

I don't know. I do not know, and I don't care as long as the check clears. Okay, so let's do.

Terry (48:21)

That's so great. And like, the first one we heard was for GMC trucks. And you've done a lot or you did a lot of voiceovers for them. And, you know, it's done in the style of like, a rugged man who likes driving over tough terrain and wants a vehicle that can handle it. So you have the voice for that, but do you ever feel like that kind of man?

Will Arnett (48:49)

Great question, Terry. It's not necessarily how I see myself, but, yeah, I still work with. I still do the. I'm the voice of GMC trucks, and it's something I'm really proud of. It's been a long time. I've been doing. I've been doing the ads for GMC since 1998.

Terry (49:10)

That long?

Will Arnett (49:11)

Yeah, I've been the voice of GMC Truck since actually, this is the anniversary month. December of 1998.

Terry (49:18)

I never realized that was you.

Will Arnett (49:20)

Yeah, yeah. Well, because my voice changed. Changed from doing those commercials, maybe, but I do. It is something that. Yeah, there's something that I. That I like. First of all, I love. I love working with the brand. And they are great trucks. I mean, look, they're. Terry, they're professional. They are professional grade.

Terry (49:42)

Yeah. Does it hurt your throat to do that?

Will Arnett (49:45)

No. The only time that it really got strained was in that way where it didn't hurt, but I had to kind of be careful was when I was doing the LEGO animated films, and we did two LEGO films and a LEGO Batman film standalone film. And doing the voice of LEGO Batman for extended periods of time was stressful. So I would book a. I'd do a session, and then I'd have to make sure that I had nothing to do for the rest of the day and basically wouldn't talk because it was. You know, it was hours in there going through the script and doing stuff. And as this, as Batman.

Terry (50:28)

Can you look back to your first audition? How nervous were you? What was the part? What was your confidence level? How did you present yourself? Even if it was a kind of front you were putting on, did you present yourself as confident? Did you dress for the role?

Will Arnett (50:44)

I can think back on.

Terry (50:45)

Did you sleep the night before?

Will Arnett (50:49)

I can think back on a lot of those early auditions, like, first sort of paying gigs for, like, a sitcom and being very nervous and almost like out of body, like, feeling. Not being present and just being. Because I'm so nervous. But I also think that, like, in the last year, you know, doing this movie has reminded me a lot. It brought me back to that place. I feel much closer to that kid I was when I was 20, when I first moved to New York. And, you know, doing something like this, where all the standup stuff aside, which was its own kind of thing, but doing all these scenes that were really vulnerable and revealing and felt very scary and, you know, it's funny. Nervous and excitement, those two senses. They're really close to each other. And so I was. I was excited, but I was also didn't know. And I've realized now as I'm older that I don't have all the answers. And I'm not sure if I knew how to. And I was scared. I was intimidated at 54. And I've. I've been doing this a long time. And I was. You know, I was unsure if I could do it or if I could be available in that way, be vulnerable in that way to. In these scenes, I can remember being a younger man and being a younger actor and feeling nervous. And I, I kind of am back to that now, which is I think I've shed a lot of that stuff and hopefully a lot of the ego stuff over the last year, especially doing this movie where I, I, I've, it's good to feel nervous.

Terry (52:22)

Well, Arnett, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. Congratulations on the new film.

Will Arnett (52:27)

Thank you so much, Terry. I really appreciate it.

Tonya Moseley (52:30)

Will Arnett co wrote and stars in the new film Is this Thing On? He spoke with Terry. FRESH AIR WEEKEND is produced by Teresa Madden. FRESH air's executive producers are Danny Miller and Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Moseley.

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