Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'

Summary

Fresh Air Podcast Summary
Episode: Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Release Date: December 13, 2024
Host: Terry Gross
Guest: Cynthia Erivo

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1. Introduction and Career Highlights

The episode opens with Cynthia Erivo performing "Defying Gravity," a signature song from the Broadway musical Wicked (00:17). Terry Gross introduces Erivo as a multifaceted talent recently nominated for a Golden Globe for her role in the film adaptation of Wicked. Erivo's impressive career trajectory includes a Tony and Drama Desk Award-winning performance in the Broadway revival of The Color Purple, an Oscar nomination for her role as Harriet Tubman in Harriet, and a Grammy nomination for the song "Stand Up." Additionally, she portrayed Aretha Franklin in the TV miniseries Genius: Aretha and has starred in the HBO series The Outsider. Erivo has also ventured into music with her album Chapter 1, Verse 1 and authored a children's book titled Remembered a Dream (01:24).

2. Portraying Aretha Franklin

Erivo delves into her experience playing the legendary Aretha Franklin. She emphasizes the significance of understanding Franklin's unique breathing techniques, which influence the emotion and meaning behind each song.

Cynthia Erivo (05:34):
"I use the song often to explain it because it's one. It's a beautiful song. And two, I had to really, really dig in and learn it. And three just is a wonderful example of how the breathwork changes."

Erivo recounts meeting Franklin backstage at The Color Purple and The Kennedy Center. She describes Franklin as disarmingly funny and humble, highlighting a memorable moment where Franklin echoed the last line of Erivo's performance, leaving her both overwhelmed and inspired (08:39).

3. Musical Influences and Techniques

Erivo discusses her deep admiration for Aretha Franklin, ignited during her childhood in South London. Growing up listening to Magic FM, she was exposed to a diverse range of artists, including Franklin, which fostered her passion for singing.

Cynthia Erivo (04:00):
"I was aware of how much I loved music and that I wanted to be a singer. And I just sort of fell in love with her voice."

She elaborates on the importance of breath control in singing, comparing it to punctuation in sentences. This technique allows singers to convey different emotions and meanings within the same song. Erivo provides an example from the song "Never Grow Old" to illustrate how varying breaths can alter the interpretation of lyrics (05:52).

4. Early Life and Education

Raised in a Roman Catholic household in South London, Erivo shares how her rebellious spirit led her to integrate gospel music into church choirs, despite resistance. Her innovative approach not only enriched the choir's repertoire but also ignited her passion for blending different musical styles (10:15).

Erivo attended the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art (RADA) in England, where she discovered her affinity for classical music and developed her acting skills. She reflects on how her time at RADA exposed her to diverse theatrical works, including Sondheim's songs and August Wilson's plays, which resonated with her personal experiences (12:20).

5. Personal Anecdotes and Family

Erivo opens up about her family background, particularly her mother's journey from Nigeria to the UK and her career as a Health Visitor. Her mother’s dedication to supporting new mothers and children deeply influenced Erivo's nurturing nature.

Cynthia Erivo (22:35):
"My mother is there to help you with. That's what her job used to be. And she sort of flew with it. She got Rose to the top of the ranks on that one."

She also touches on the emotional impact of her father's departure when she was sixteen, describing the heartbreak and the responsibility she felt in conveying the news to her family. This experience shaped her resilience and understanding of personal struggles (25:02).

6. Songwriting and New Album

Discussing her latest work, Erivo introduces her new song "The Good" from her album Chapter One, Verse One. The song emerged from a conversation about remembering positive moments amidst challenges, inspired by a friend's relationship struggles and subsequent loss.

Cynthia Erivo (27:44):
"The song is about remembering the good even when something ends. Maybe not in the best of ways."

Erivo shares insights into her songwriting process, highlighting the balance between upbeat melodies and heartfelt lyrics. She also touches on her vocal training at RADA, where she learned to integrate her singing and speaking voices seamlessly (16:13).

7. Navigating Life as a Short-Statured Individual

Erivo humorously addresses the challenges of being five foot one, from finding appropriately sized chairs to podiums. She reflects on how her stature sometimes leads to misconceptions about her strength and maturity, prompting her to assert her capabilities beyond physical appearance.

Cynthia Erivo (30:58):
"Because you're small, sometimes people... they often decide that because you're small. You're also childlike, which sometimes is really strange because you have to sort of correct people and let them understand."

8. Closing Remarks

The interview concludes with Erivo expressing gratitude for the conversation and her ongoing projects, including her role in Wicked. Terry Gross thanks her for her time and contributions to the arts (33:17).

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Notable Quotes

• On Breath Control in Singing:
  “The breath, I think, tells you everything about what the person is trying to say.”
  — Cynthia Erivo (05:54)

• On Meeting Aretha Franklin:
  “I don't know if I needed anything more meaningful than that, to be honest. Because if the Queen of Soul can remember you as the person who can sing, well, wonderful.”
  — Cynthia Erivo (08:55)

• On Overcoming Challenges in Singing:
  “I have to sort of make sure that the stool is not too high for you to sit on.”
  — Cynthia Erivo (32:23)

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Conclusion

This episode of Fresh Air provides an in-depth look into Cynthia Erivo's multifaceted career, her deep-rooted musical influences, and her personal journey overcoming challenges. Through intimate conversation and engaging performances, Erivo shares the nuances of her craft, her experiences portraying iconic figures, and the personal stories that shape her artistry.

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Timestamps

• 00:17 – Introduction with Cynthia Erivo performing "Defying Gravity"
• 01:24 – Overview of Erivo's career achievements
• 05:34 – Discussing breath control in singing
• 08:39 – Meeting Aretha Franklin
• 10:15 – Early life and gospel music in church
• 12:20 – Education at RADA
• 14:27 – Musical influences and acting
• 22:35 – Stories about her mother
• 25:02 – Father's departure and its impact
• 27:44 – Songwriting inspiration for "The Good"
• 30:58 – Discussing life as a short-statured individual
• 33:17 – Closing remarks of the interview

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This summary was generated based on the transcript provided and aims to encapsulate the key discussions, insights, and personal narratives shared by Cynthia Erivo during her interview on NPR's Fresh Air.

Transcript

[Cynthia Erivo]

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[David Biancouli]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

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[David Biancouli]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Biancooli. Singer and actress Cynthia Erivo has just been nominated for a Golden Globe for her performance in the film adaptation of the Broadway musical Wicked. Here she is singing one of that musical's most iconic songs.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's time to try defying gravity. I think I tried defying gravity and you can't pull me down. Can't I make you understand? You're having delusions of grandeur. I'm through accepting limits. Cause someone says they're so something I cannot change but till I try I'll never know. Too long I've been afraid of losing love I guess I've lost. Well if that's love it comes every much too high I call I'd sooner die defying gravity.

[David Biancouli]

That's Cynthia Erivo in 2016. After coming to the US from England, Erivo starred in the Broadway revival of the musical the Color Purple, winning a Tony and Drama Desk Award for her starring role as Harriet Tubman in the film Harriet. She was nominated for an Oscar and also was nominated for the movie's closing credits song Stand up, which she co wrote and sang. Erivo played Aretha Franklin in the TV miniseries Genius Aretha. She also co starred in the HBO series the Outsider and she released an album of songs she co wrote titled Chapter 1, Verse 1 and wrote a children's book called Remembered a Dream. Ebare Erivo grew up in South London, where her parents emigrated from Nigeria. Terry Gross spoke with Cynthia Erivo in 2021 and asked her about playing Aretha Franklin. They began with this scene from the miniseries Genius, Aretha. This is set during Aretha's first recording session for Atlantic Records in 1967. Erivo, as Aretha, is at the piano singing I never loved a man the way I loved you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You're no good heartbreaker. You're a liar and you're cheating. I don't know why I let you do these things to me. My friends keep telling me that you ain't no good. Oh they don't know but I would leave you if I could guess. I'm uptight that I'm stuck like blue. Cause I ain't never I know I never know. Love the man the way that I love you.

[Terry Gross]

That's Cynthia Erivo from the miniseries Genius Aretha. Cynthia Erivo, welcome to Fresh air.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[Terry Gross]

It is such a pleasure to have you on the show. How did you start listening to Aretha Franklin?

[Cynthia Erivo]

When I was a kid and we were. So. There's this radio station in the UK called Magic fm and it plays everything, everything from, I don't know if you know, a band called Mike and the Mechanics to the Eurythmics, to Kate Bush to Aretha, to Gladys Knight, Patti LaBelle, Lauryn Hill, the whole lot. And so when we were only be on the way to school, my mom would always have that radio station on. And the first time I heard it, it was from there. I think the. I want to say the first thing I heard was sisters are doing it for themselves. And then I heard. I think it was till you come back to me. So I had heard Aretha in like two different ways. One with Annie Lennox and then one on her own from two different times. And I just sort of fell in love. I didn't really. I didn't really know. Cause I didn't know who that was. And then I started asking questions and my mum told me it was Aretha Franklin. And so I was aware of how much I loved music and that I wanted to be a singer. And I just sort of fell in love with her voice. The fact that she could do that with Annie Lennox and then that on her own just was astounding to me.

[Terry Gross]

Did you try to emulate her?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't think I tried to emulate her. I just wanted to listen to everything she had and I started learning her music pretty, pretty early.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, I know you've said that. When you were listening to Aretha before playing her, that one of the things you were listening for is where did she breathe?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Why was that important?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because the breath, I think, tells you everything about what the person is trying to say. You know, when you. If you look at a sentence where the comma goes. Tells you what the sentence means. If I say, today I've been feeling really, really bad, but. And now I say, today I've been feeling really bad, but I'll be all right. Well, now I've. It's. One is, I feel ill and one is emotionally, I feel bad, you see? And so when she would. She would breathe in different places and it would change the sentence structure, it would change the meaning of the song. Another person might sing it a completely different way.

[Terry Gross]

Can you sing us an example of what you mean?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I use the song often to explain it because it's one. It's a beautiful song. And two, I had to really, really dig in and learn it. And three just is a wonderful example of how the breathwork changes. It's called Never Grow Old. I had to learn it for the Amazing Grace episode. And it. It goes like this. The sentence is, I have heard of a land on a faraway strand. That's the sentence. The normal way to sing it is, I have heard of a land on a far away strand. Right. She sings, I have heard of on land on far, far away Strength.

[Terry Gross]

You get the impression that it's more far away exactly the way you sang it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Exactly.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. But I'll tell you, it was beautiful both ways.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She just has this way with music. The way she manipulates it and uses it to tell the story is really special. And it's that sort of making you wait for the. For the explanation. Because when it's. It's a difference between moving from one note to the other really quickly. I have heard. As opposed to I have heard of a land.

[Terry Gross]

You know, you met her twice backstage at the Color Purple and at the Kennedy Center. Did you feel like you were able to have a meaningful conversation with her? I think sometimes, like, when you meet somebody who's so important to you, you just don't know what to say.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think that was. I was. That I didn't really know what to say. But I was also sort of disarmed by how funny she was. She was so, like, jovial. She joked that when I first met her, she sang the last sentence of my big song back at me. And so I almost fell over. Cause Aretha Franklin is singing and I'm here back at me. And I just. I didn't know what to do. I think I just laughed. I was just like, oh, my God. And I remember her saying, well, you can sing. Sing. I was like, okay. Oh my God, this is nuts. It just, you know, I. I don't know if I needed anything more meaningful than that, to be honest. Because if the Queen of Soul can remember you as the person who can sing, well, wonderful.

[Terry Gross]

She was brought up in the church, and she was brought up singing gospel in the church on tours through the south and in her father's church. And so when she started singing R and B, it was so church influenced. And I'm wondering about if you grew up churched at all in England and if so, what the music was like.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We did. I did grow up in church, but different because I'm Roman Catholic is what I was raised on. And then. But I was a bit of a rebel, so When I was in church, it was a lot of, like, Christian hymns. And I wanted more because I was sort of. I was listening to gospel music and I was learning about gospel singers and I was learning about that sound and I wanted to. I wanted to hear it in my own church. So one of the churches when I. We moved to East London from South London and that church had a choir. So I remember they asked if I could join the choir. And so I did. And then somehow I managed to end up being like one of the conductors of the choir. And I would just like, sneak gospel songs in from time to time and just have them, like, sing a couple gospel songs. Consequently, I got into trouble for it and they were like, you can't. You can't make. Sing those songs in here anymore. And I never understood why, because I felt like all music that was for the same reason was equal and was meaningful.

[Terry Gross]

Was the objection to the gospel music the lyrics of the song or the style of singing?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think it's the style of singing. I think the style of singing was the. Was where the objection came. There's a particularly straight laced way of praising that's correct for the Catholic Church. There's a specific way that you should do it and there's a specific thing that you can sing. There are specific songs and anything outside of the lines is too far.

[Terry Gross]

Was this a predominantly white congregation?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Very much so, yes. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

You went to rada, which is the Rural Academy of Dramatic Arts in England. Very famous school. You didn't know it existed when you were invited. Invited to apply for it?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I did not.

[Terry Gross]

Was it revelatory once you got there, to study acting in such a formal and probably traditional way?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I just. Because I didn't know that that was even a possibility. When I was going through primary school or secondary school, no one was like, you can go to drama school. No one gave me that option. So the whole thing was ritual. Like the first year was both discovery and struggle and a half because I just like, what am I doing here? And I. So there's so many things I don't really understand is what was my strong suit was that I was a little bit different to most people, that I was one of the kids that was good at singing. And we had a particularly musical year. So there were a couple of other kids who could sing too. And actually being able to sing was really useful. And when I started to embrace that, I sort of could see where the opportunities were. Some people were really wonderful at the classics and at Jacobis and, you know, Those kids that came from Eton who had read those things were brilliant at those things, but I wasn't that. My raw talent came from understanding music. So when we started talking about Sondheim and learning those songs, for me, I was in heaven. And when we started reading Seven Guitars by August Wilson, I recognized myself in those people, because while it was a black writer writing about black people, and I could see myself in them, and those are plays I had read. And there's a. There's a playwright I had heard of. And when you were passionate about acting, Shakespeare was where we all sort of like joined hands because, well, we all knew. Knew Shakespeare, but now I could have a sort of a real grasp on the scope, which he wrote.

[Terry Gross]

You know, when you were talking about Aretha, you talked about the importance of where you breathe and how it can even change the meaning of a phrase. So when you were learning Sondheim songs, I think breath is really especially important in those songs in terms of the meaning. But in some of the songs, just in terms of having an opportunity to breathe, because some of the songs, there isn't a lot of opportunity, and those songs are really rangy, you know, so your breath support would be really important. Is there a song you especially loved when you started singing Sondheim?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I loved Being Alive, and I loved the Millis. Have you ever heard the Middle Son?

[Terry Gross]

I have. I've seen you sing it on YouTube, so if anybody wants to see it, it's there.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, that's one of my favorite songs. I just. That is one of those songs where you're like, if you don't breathe in the right place, you won't make it to the end of the sentence.

[Terry Gross]

Can you give us an example of what you mean?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God. I don't even know if I can remember the lyrics. I haven't done it for such a long time. Is it. It's a wink and a wiggle and a giggle in a grass and I'll trip the light fandango of a pinch and a diddle in the middle of a passersby It's a very short road from the pension the punch to the paunch and the pouch and the pension It's a very short road to the 10,000th lunch and the paunch and the pouch and the sigh in the meanwhile There are mouths to be kissed before mouths to be fed and a lot in between in the meanwhile and the girl has to celebrate what passes by Or I shall marry the mill of sun yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Thank you. Did. How did you figure out where to breathe. Did you get advice on that? Did it seem natural?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I got. I got advice. I had a really lovely teacher at rada. It was Philip. He was just. He was wonderful. Actually. I will say that my singing teacher at Brada, we're all sort of assigned a singing teacher, most of us, because we've never sung before, so we can learn about what that is and learn how to connect the singing voice and the singing breath with the speaking voice and the speaking breath. So we don't differentiate the two so far apart that we're afraid of one of them because they're sort of one and the same. And I think that because I was already in tune with my singing voice, what Philip did with me was encourage me to try new things, try more. So he would have me singing arias from Otello.

[Terry Gross]

And were you comfortable singing in an operatic style, or did it not matter which style you sang in as long as you did the same?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was comfortable. Classical music was sort of a love of mine. And then when I went to drama school, my voice was already sort of ready to try that. And. And it's the same. Whilst I was doing the Color Purple, my singing teacher, Joan Leder, rather, who's wonderful, she would give me classical music or opera to sing because she said that the best way to allow my voice to be open enough to sing what I was singing on stage was to just try something that was totally opposite to it. So you weren't taxing your voice the same way the entire time. You were just sort of opening it up and exercising it, but not stressing it.

[Terry Gross]

Can you give us an example of how you learned to open up your voice?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'll do one of the first things I did at secondary school, actually, because we'd always do sort of like the end of year, like, choral show. And this one year we decided to do Rata Requiem. The Rata Requiem by John Rutta. And I was asked to sing Pa. There's a. There's a version of Pa Yesu for this, for the Genrato Requiem. And it's very special. Who knows if I can still do these notes, but I'll give it a go. Then it would change keys. P so Domine Donna and this key change was always really difficult.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, so beautiful. Now, what about that opened your voice.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I guess there's a couple of things that are happening. Your breath is different. The way you place. The way you use your tongue is different. The tongue placement is different in your mouth. It's almost like even the way you use the muscles in your face often to make those sounds that your jaw has to be slightly lowered and relaxed. And often, I don't know, if you when you watch me sing, you'll see that I sing often with a bit of a smile. On one, I'm enjoying myself. But two, when you smile, everything else is relaxed.

[David Biancouli]

Cynthia Erivo speaking with Terry Gross in 2021. She is currently starring in the film adaptation of the Broadway musical Wicked. We'll hear more of their interview after a break. Also, Ken Tucker plays us some great new Christmas music. I'm David Biancouli, and this is FRESH air.

[Cynthia Erivo]

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[David Biancouli]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

Easier said done. Hi, it's Marielle Segarra from Life. Kid, there's a first time for everything, including giving to npr. Whether you're a brand new listener or a longtime fan, please join the community of NPR Network supporters today. Make your [e-mail] and thank you.

[Terry Gross]

Your mother, who raised you, came from Nigeria. What were her dreams?

[Cynthia Erivo]

She actually surpassed a lot of her dreams. Her dream was to be a nurse. So she got that and then had to change it. I watched her sort of go, okay, I got my nursing degree and now what else do I want? I think she definitely wanted to be in the UK with her with children. I know she wanted children. I think she wanted more children than she has. But she's very happy with the two that she does. And I think that she sort of learned after the dream of being a nurse came true that she had this sort of passion for taking care of children full stop. And so she focused her studies on the cognitive health of children and ended up becoming. There's a position in the UK called Health Visitor. And her job specifically is to help new mothers with children from the age of, say, one month almost to the age of three, just with like learning cognitive skills and making sure that the mother isn't suffering from postpartum. And if they are, then she can help and she makes sure that the children are latching in the right way or if there's anything going on or if there's colic, all of those things, all the things that you would. You might panic about if you don't have any guidance. My mother is there to help you with. That's what her job used to be. And she sort of flew with it. She got Rose to the top of the ranks on that one. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Was it reassuring to you to have a mother who knew what to do if something went wrong?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my gosh, yeah. Yeah, she's cool. It's really fun. I realize that she's like a child whisperer. It's really watching her with other people's children because they don't really know how it's done and I don't know how it's done. I feel like I've been. It feels like it's like in our genes because I end up being the same with kids and I don't really need to do very much and kids sort of are like, oh, look, what's this interesting looking being sitting next to me? I want to know who that person is. And we're off to the races. It's hilarious. I think she passed it on.

[Terry Gross]

Your parents separated, I think when you were pretty young and by the time you were 16, your father told you and your sister that he was done.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, yeah, he told me. He told.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, it was just you?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was just me. He told me that he was out of our lives and I sort of had to relay the message to everyone. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

What was your reaction? Could you see that coming?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I didn't see it coming. Although in hindsight I probably should have seen it coming. But I didn't see it coming because, you know, what 16 year old would at the time I was heartbroken because it was in public when it happened as well. So it was just like not fun. But, yeah, it was. It was deeply disappointing, deeply heartbreaking. And I think I felt bad for having to have to bring that information back to my house, to my mum, my sister. And I remember it was in the middle of a school day, so I still had to go through school. That was not fun.

[Terry Gross]

Did he give you an explanation?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, not really. No. No, I think he just had. I think he was finished being a dad.

[Terry Gross]

And did you think that there was something about you that made him leave? Or did you think like, he's being mean and thoughtless and doing this and that's on him, not on me?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hmm. I don't know. I. I don't know if I was thinking about that. I. I never really compartmentalized it. I just saw someone doing something that hurt me and I think it was just sort of as simple as that. Like someone is do. He was doing something that he knew would hurt me to be mean and spiteful. But I knew that he was going to stick to it. I knew that it wasn't like a. A judd that he would take back at some point.

[Terry Gross]

Have you spoken to him since?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No.

[Terry Gross]

Wow.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Actually, I actually tell a lie. I bumped into him randomly at a. At a cousin's wedding. We had an awkward sort of hello and that was. That's it. When I was 25.

[Terry Gross]

I want to play another song from your new album and this is called the Good. Do you want to say something about what you were thinking about when you wrote it?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. So when I wrote it, we had gotten to a point where I knew that we needed an up tempo song. We needed something with like that felt upbeat and that felt fun. But I love writing ballads. I love writing love songs. I can't help it. It's sort of. I'm so. I'm a mid tempo.

[Terry Gross]

Don't need to apologize.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's what I do. And like I enjoy them. I enjoy singing because of the space in them. But then. So as we started writing, I thought, what can you make this about? And my friend, who is also the EP on this album with me, he said that he had been talking to a friend of ours about the relationship that she had had with her father. She said that the relationship wasn't great all the time, but they were starting to rebuild and that they were starting to have some really good moments. And then he passed away. And then she said, but she just wants to remember the good. And the light bulb went off and I was like, that's the song. That song. The song is about remembering the good even when something ends. Maybe not in the best of ways.

[Terry Gross]

Well, let's hear the song. This is The Good, from Cynthia Erivo's new album, Chapter one, Verse one.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Gone is the way we used to smile, my dear Hope doesn't spring from anywhere Watching the world forget to breath Wish we could stop and feel the breeze But I know there's no point in waiting for what I can see holding my chest as all my tears fall out My mind's in a spin as all the pain pours down what can I do to make these days go by? I haven't the strength to make the right rainfall dad. Just want to remember the good God. Good, good, good Want to remember the good Good, good, good, good what can I do to make these days go by? When darkness surrounds me but I see the light Just want to remember the.

[Terry Gross]

Good that's Cynthia Erebo from her new album, Chapter one, Verse one. So this is kind of a personal question in terms of that it has personal meaning for me. So you're five foot one. Harriet Tubman, who you portrayed, was even shorter and I'm not quite five feet. So as a short person, I'm wondering if you think it's had much of an impact on your life or your career to be short.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't know because I never. I mean, thing is, a lot of people don't realize I am as short as I am.

[Terry Gross]

I did not realize it. I was reading about you and I was like, really?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, I spend a lot of my time in heels, but like, often when I'm with other people, they're also like dressed up or in their heels. And so when I'm standing next and then they're like, oh, my goodness, you're really small. I think there have been times, often that people assume that because you're small, you are weak or because you're small. Sometimes people, they often decide that because you're small. You're also childlike, which sometimes is really strange because you have to sort of correct people and let them understand. Well, actually, I'm a fully grown adult. I just happen to be small. So my understanding of what you are saying or anyone else is saying is just the same.

[Terry Gross]

What about chairs? Do you find it's hard to find a chair that fits?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. Like chairs that are high enough to get to tables and stuff.

[Terry Gross]

Well, you know, chairs are like too deep and often too high.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Your legs are swinging off the ground.

[Terry Gross]

You see your legs. Right, exactly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, that's a thing. So you end up having to like perch at the edge of the seat so your feet can touch the ground.

[Terry Gross]

Or podiums.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Podiums are hilarious. Because sometimes you're also like, you know what, Today I'm just gonna swallow my pride and ask them for a little step so I can reach the podium and feel like I'm a normal height and reach this thing so I'm not having to tiptoe ever so slightly or wear 15 inch heels that it's sort of like it's that you have to take the good with the bad with it definitely stalls. High chairs are really sometimes quite difficult because you know, if you're singing and you want to sit, you're often on a stool. So you have to try and make sure that the stool is not too high for you to sit on. And so I always make the compromise with whatever dress I'm wearing or whatever clothes because if they cover my feet, you can't see how far my feet are from the ground. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

And if the stool's too high, you have to kind of shimmy onto it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Shimmy onto it.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. Because you can't reach that high. Your behind doesn't reach that high.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You're like making little jumps to get.

[Terry Gross]

There and then slide out, slide down.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh my goodness.

[Terry Gross]

Cynthia Erivo, it's been so delightful to talk with you. Thank you so much for doing this. And just thank you for your work.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, thank you. Thank you so. This has been so much fun. You are wonderful. So thank you.

[David Biancouli]

Cynthia erivo, recorded in 2021, she's currently starring in the film adaptation of the Broadway musical Wicked. The first half of the two part adaptation opened November 22 and already has earned more than $300 million in American T sales. Coming up, I'll review the new prime video series the Sticky, which brings the sensibility of the TV series Fargo to Canada's syrup industry. This is FRESH air.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hi, I'm Laurel Wamsley and I cover personal finance for npr. That means I report on some of the questions that might keep you or your loved ones up at night.

[David Biancouli]

Like will I ever be able to buy a home?

[Cynthia Erivo]

What about retirement? As interest rates drop, where should I put my money? Economic headlines can be confusing, but NPR is here to help you make sense of them. To support this coverage, please give [e-mail] from the online trends that dominated 2024.

[Terry Gross]

On the spectrum of brat to demure.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Where are you right now? To Spicy TikTok Viral reads these romance fantasy books about dragons. NPR kept you up to speed on pop culture all year long. Give back to the news source that just hits different by donating [e-mail] and thank you Evergreen trees are Pacific Northwest icons in journalism. An evergreen story isn't tied to one news cycle. It goes deep and helps you understand the world. The Evergreen is also a podcast from OPB about the Northwest.

[Terry Gross]

I'm Jen Chavez. Listen to the Evergreen Podcast for promotion.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Every Monday, part of the NPR Network.

[David Biancouli]

This is Fresh Air. I'm TV critic David Biancooli. The Sticky is a new TV series starring Margo Martindale inspired by the biggest crime in Canadian history, the theft of a massive amount of government stored maple syrup. This new six part prime video miniseries, all of which is streaming now, tells that story, but more whimsically than faithfully. Don't think of the Sticky as a fact based Canadian crime story. Think of it more like the movie Fargo where half the fun is enjoying the snow covered scenery and the somewhat cartoonish characters. And though the series creators of the Sticky, Brian Donovan and Ed Harrow, don't mind the French Canadian accents for laughs, the way Fargo played with those Minnesota drawls, the loose connection with the truth is exactly the same. The Fargo movie and TV series stated at the start that they were based on a true story, but they were lying. Because why not? The opening disclaimer in the Sticky is just as playful but much more honest. It says this is absolutely not the true story of the great Canadian maple syrup heist. In that real life robbery, $18 million worth of maple syrup reserves were stolen with the theft discovered in 2012. In this six part version for TV, the heist is planned by a trio of unlikely co conspirators. There's Remy, a local security guard, the only security guard at the place where local syrup is stockpiled. Mike is a low level mobster visiting from Chicago and Ruth is a local farmer who taps her trees for SAP each year, but whose land is about to be sold out from under her. All three of these people have grudges to settle. The security guard against the Serb federation that treats him poorly, the gangster against the mob family that takes him for granted, and the farmer whose property is being targeted by the head of the syrup association even though her husband is in the hospital in a coma. Remy, the security guard hatches a plan to steal some syrup. He tells the mobster who tries to enlist Ruth because of her knowledge of the trade. Mike is played by Chris Diamantopoulos. Guillaume Cyr plays Remy and Margo Martindale plays Ruth. You need this, so hear him out. Remy. So here's my system.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It took some thinking, but it's pretty sweet. In the dark of night I sneak A barrel out each month. The Norwal sells the syrup to his guy one province over. We just have to do that in all of and the week. It's rich, easy peasy. Boom, boom, boom.

[David Biancouli]

Boom what?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Bang boom. One barrel?

[David Biancouli]

That's your plan? A million dollars three ways, that's what you want?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[David Biancouli]

Let's see. Okay, I thought about it for four seconds.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Listen to this.

[David Biancouli]

The association has a barrel set price at $2,489.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We sell to Hamm and Eggers in Ottawa. They're going to screw us.

[David Biancouli]

We go 2k on the black market. Now that means.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know what that means? That means you two bozos have to.

[David Biancouli]

Pinch 500 barrels at night in a week. That's not just Tom, that's stupid.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They're going to notice 500 barrels.

[David Biancouli]

Once the three agree to work together, the real fun begins. Outside factors and unexpected antagonists keep gumming up the works. And these three very different characters react differently to almost everything, including one another. Ruth is the brains of the outfit. Remy knows almost nothing. And Mike certainly knows nothing about the production methods of maple syrup, which he demonstrates in a conversation with them during a cramped truck ride.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Six weeks.

[David Biancouli]

You wait all year long for a lousy six weeks to tap syrup?

[Cynthia Erivo]

SAP.

[David Biancouli]

What?

[Cynthia Erivo]

She said SAP. Four to six weeks to collect the tree's SAP. Then we turn the SAP to syrup.

[David Biancouli]

It's not just syrup in the trees.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, no, that would. That would be amazing.

[David Biancouli]

Okay, but we're stealing the syrup, right? We're not stealing SAP. Of course not.

[Cynthia Erivo]

SAP. How do you not know this?

[David Biancouli]

Because no one does, Ruth.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No one.

[David Biancouli]

Except SAP farmers.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They're not called SAP farmers.

[David Biancouli]

The point is, sugaring season's almost over. Margot Martindale, who was so enjoyable to watch on both Justified and the Americans, has a blast with this leading role. Her major co stars, including Geeta Miller and Suzanne Claymont as a pair of investigators on their trail, are all Canadian actors. And all add to the mix here. But the secret ingredient and the reason to make this a must watch TV series is an eventual substantial guest star appearance by an American, Jamie Lee Curtis. She arrives late, but makes as big an impact as she did in her Emmy winning guest stint on the Bear or as the tax auditor in Everything Everywhere all at once. It's such a blast to see Curtis and Martindale swing for the fences with their portrayals and both of them hit it out of the park. The entire company of actors is strong and the French versions of American pop songs on the soundtrack are a delight. The best part of all is that while the Sticky is loaded with wonderful characters, performances, music and surprises, it's not at all overly sentimental, which is good. The last thing you'd want from a TV show about a maple syrup heist is for it to be too sappy. Coming up, we hear some new Christmas songs. This is FRESH air.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Ho, ho, ho.

[David Biancouli]

Santa here coming to you from the.

[Cynthia Erivo]

North Pole, where the elves in our.

[David Biancouli]

Podcast division have just completed work on.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This season's best gift for public radio lovers, NPR give the gift of sponsored free listening and even bonus episodes from your favorite NPR podcasts, all while supporting public media. Learn more at plus.NPR.org.

[David Biancouli]

Breakup stories are going super viral online. Normalize posting why you broke up on the Internet.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I cannot believe I'm about to tell this breakup story and expose myself like this on It's Been a Minute. We're asking the big questions about dating. Like what's the line between a juicy story and an invasion of privacy? To find out, listen now to the It's Been a minute podcast from NPR. Every weekday, NPR's best political reporters come to you on the NPR Politics Podcast to explain the big news coming out of Washington, the campaign trail and beyond. We don't just want to tell you what happened, we tell you why it matters. Join the NPR Politics podcast every single afternoon to understand the world through political eyes.

[David Biancouli]

Each year, the holiday season brings new Christmas music, and rock critic Ken Tucker has been listening to it all to select the songs he's enjoyed the most. This year's picks include new holiday albums by Ben Foulds and the country group Little Big Town, as well as a duet from a very famous pop star and a very famous football player. Here's Ben Folds with his new song the Bell that Couldn't Jingle.

[Cynthia Erivo]

A Christmas bell was crying. Then Santa heard it say, I just can't sing to jingle and I can't go on the sun.

[David Biancouli]

There are two ways to go when recording Christmas music, devout or irreverent. By devout, I don't mean somberly religious as much as I mean sincere and respectful. Few pop performers do devout sincerity more assiduously than Ben Folds, whose earnest tone is ideal for holiday songs. Folds has a new album called Slayer, as in Christmas Slay, though I'm sure, given his puckish sense of humor, he meant the title to echo the name of the thrash metal band Slayer, spelled differently and authors of albums such as Rain in Blood. Ben Folds, by contrast, wants to reign in heaven, blessed to sing. His new would be Christmas standard called Christmas Time Rhymes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Christmas Morning in the back of the old family fort with my feet dangling Wondering when they might grow to the floor Pumpkin pie wrapped in foil and gifts wrapped in newspaper Ringing the bell of my grandmother's door all the memories that the season store.

[David Biancouli]

The sentimentality that is inherent in much country music gives it an ideal base upon which to build holiday music, and the four member country act Little Big Town has now created the Christmas Record, a straightforward title for a briskly sung collection that mixes standards with original material, such as their single Glow these hills, these roads could.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Use some snow Let it be Christmas, you're bright, you're cheer boxed up all gear Let it be cold Christmas let's shine that shimmer Deep inside of you find that magic Let the light in you shine Let it go, let it glow, let it flow.

[David Biancouli]

One of Little Big Town's better choices of country covers is their version of a song I wish more people listen to at this time of year, Merle Haggard's lovely song if We Make It Through December if.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We make it through December Everything's gonna be all right I know it's the coldest time of winter and I shiver when I see the falling snow if we make it through December God plans to be in a warmer town Come summertime maybe even California if we make it through December we'll be fine.

[David Biancouli]

My final selection of new Christmas music is a duet between a very famous pop star and a very famous football player. No, no, Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce have not cut their version of Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer. I'm talking about Travis brother Jason Kelce and his duet with Stevie Nicks doing Ron Sexmith's beautiful holiday song maybe this.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Christmas maybe this Christmas will mean something more maybe this year love will appear deeper than ever before and maybe forgiveness.

[Terry Gross]

Will ask us to call someone we.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Love Someone we've lost for reasons we can't quite recall. Maybe this Christmas, maybe there'll be an open door maybe the star that's strong before we'll shine Once.

[David Biancouli]

That surprisingly effective Kelsey Stevie duet is part of an album called A Philly Special Christmas Party, a Philadelphia Eagles charity fundraiser. Thinking back to the start of this review, all of my new examples are devout, not irreverent. Maybe next year someone will come up with a new novelty Christmas hit, but as it stands, this year is well served by some very soothing music. Rock critic Ken Tucker reviewed new Christmas music from Ben Folds, Little Big Town and Jason Kelsey and Stevie Nicks singing a duet on A Philly Special Christmas Party on Monday's show. Actor and comic Ronny Chang. He was brought to the Daily show by Trevor Noah and became a field correspondent. Now he's one of the rotating correspondents who anchored the show. He co stars in the new series Interior Chinatown and was in the film Crazy Rich Asians. He has a new Netflix comedy special. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram @NPRFreshAir. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Roberta Schirach. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld and Diana Martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm David Bianculi. Consider this is a daily news podcast. And lately the news is about a big question. How much can one guy change? What would change look like for energy?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Drill baby, Drill schools. Take the Department of Education.

[David Biancouli]

Close it. Health care better and less expensive. Follow coverage of a changing country.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Promises made, promises kept. We're going to keep our promises on.

[David Biancouli]

Consider this the afternoon news podcast from npr.

[Cynthia Erivo]

On the embedded podcast from npr, what.

[Terry Gross]

Is it like to live under years of state surveillance?

[Cynthia Erivo]

So many people have fear, fear of losing their families. For years, the Chinese government has been.

[Terry Gross]

Detaining hundreds of thousands of ethnic Uighurs. This is the story of one family torn apart. Listen to the black Gate on the embedded podcast from NPR.