'Dopesick' Writer Returns To Her 'Fractured' Hometown

Summary

---

Fresh Air — "Dopesick" Writer Returns To Her "Fractured" Hometown

Date: October 7, 2025
Host: Dave Davies
Guest: Beth Macy, journalist and author of Dopesick and new memoir Paper Girl: A Memoir of Home and Family in a Fractured America

---

Overview

This episode welcomes acclaimed journalist and author Beth Macy to discuss her latest book, Paper Girl. Shifting from her trademark deeply reported nonfiction on the opioid crisis and deindustrialization, Macy's new memoir is a personal investigation into her childhood in Urbana, Ohio—a town reshaped by lost factory jobs, rising poverty, family estrangement, and the fraying of once-reliable civic bonds. The conversation traces Macy’s family history, the evolving dysfunction in her hometown, ideological and intergenerational rifts in America, and what personal reporting reveals about today’s deep cultural divisions.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Write a Personal Memoir?

• Macy’s new book is both memoir and social analysis, prompted by a jolting moment with her evangelical sister at their mother’s deathbed, illuminated by the 2020 election aftermath and bitter family divides over politics.

  • "I just was astonished. I didn’t realize how much we operated in different information ecosystems." (Beth Macy, 03:17)

• The memoir grew from painful family reckonings, local observations (e.g., newfound Confederate flags in a once-abolitionist town), and her desire to understand what’s “left of my family, my hometown, and my country.”

  • (03:44)

2. Family, Childhood, and Social Mobility

• Grew up poor—the “midlife accident” of her family, with an alcoholic father and a mother struggling to make ends meet.

  • "It wasn’t a great environment to grow up in, with the exception of my mom and my grandma Macy next door, who literally owned our house and kept a roof over our heads." (Beth Macy, 06:51)

• Macy credits her mother, support from neighbors, and a Pell Grant-funded college opportunity as keys to escaping poverty.

  • "I had the confidence when I got to public schools... to know that I might be poorer than the rest of the kids, but they weren’t necessarily smarter than me." (Beth Macy, 07:23)

• The role of Pell Grants and how diminished financial aid today blocks similar upward mobility:

  • “Now, a Pell Grant would only pay about 30% of a state university cost. Even 10 years later, I wouldn’t have been able to go.” (14:32)

3. The Erosion of Community and Middle Class

• Macy describes the hollowing out of Urbana’s once-sturdy middle class, with schools and civic institutions now crumbling.
• Chronic absenteeism, lack of basic skills, and social breakdown observed through ride-alongs with a school attendance officer:
  • "The things she saw curled my toes... [Brooke Perry] was working so hard to help these kids." (16:49)
  • "When I said, what’s the biggest challenge? She said, 'Honestly, I have to teach them how to human.'" (19:19)

4. Generational and Political Divisions

• Macy details personal and familial estrangement sparked by politics and media ecosystems.
  • “My own brother, who I was very close to... unfriended me at one point during Trump’s first administration because of, quote, all the liberal crap I post.” (03:40)
• Profound rifts surfaced at their mother’s deathbed over the 2020 election; a microcosm of how misinformation and social media have polarized American life.

5. Difficult Conversations: Sexual Abuse, Faith, and Family Loyalty

• Macy recounts her conversation with her sister Cookie, whose husband abused Cookie’s daughter and who initially sought advice from her fundamentalist pastor rather than the authorities.
  • “They [the pastors] looked up at her and they said, ‘We believe your husband is a good man.’ And that was it. End of story.” (22:54)
  • Cookie remains unsure, torn between religious counsel and her daughter’s pain. Macy probes the persistence of denial and the role of religious patriarchy:
    • “She was under the thumb of this misogynistic Christian nationalist, men who were telling her what to do and what to think.” (29:25)
• Macy also explores her family’s struggles accepting her queer children, emphasizing moments of both heartbreak and hope for empathy:
  • "Cookie, Max thinks you don’t like him because he’s gay. And she says, 'I love him, but I don’t like that he’s gay.'" (25:36)
  • Macy recognizes "it’s a crack. It’s a little crack of empathy." (26:54)

6. Conspiratorial Thinking and Rural Radicalization (31:17–36:25)

• Macy is shocked by the prevalence of QAnon and conspiratorial beliefs even among old friends and the town’s middle-class elite:
  • “I was really taken by how many people were believers in QAnon... He would go, 'She’s QAnon, he’s QAnon.'” (Beth Macy, 32:05)
• Explores former closeness now ruptured by conspiracy theories (friends believing "Tom Hanks is a pedophile" or COVID misinformation).
• Describes a former boyfriend radicalized by isolation and online propaganda, becoming a spokesperson for nativist movements.

7. Hope, Estrangement, and Bridging Divides

• Macy finds some hope in moments of grace—her brother seeking understanding about her nonbinary child, attempts to repair relationships fractured by ideology:
  • “He was so kind about it and just curious that I went there with him. And I think we, like, he showed me grace. I showed him grace back. And that’s where we need to get back to in this country.” (Beth Macy, 38:19)
• Grapples with enduring questions: “How do we love beyond what we can’t understand?” (Quoted from her friend Joy, 36:11)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On parallel realities within families:
  “I didn’t realize how much we operated in different information ecosystems.” (Beth Macy, 03:17)

• On the loss of educational opportunity:
  “Now, a Pell Grant would only pay about 30% of a state university cost. Even 10 years later, I wouldn’t have been able to go.” (Beth Macy, 14:32)

• On the impact of community support:
  “I had this incredible grandma next door who taught me how to read and write before I went to kindergarten... I might be poorer than the rest of the kids, but they weren’t necessarily smarter than me.” (Beth Macy, 07:23)

• On the reality of decline:
  “As I began to peel the layers of the onion, I started to realize that people weren't showing up for work, people weren't sending their kids to school.” (04:26)

• On child neglect and the opioid crisis:
  “Another time, I was out with her, taking a young girl who was being raised by her grandparents, which is also not uncommon, largely thanks to the opioid crisis…” (17:40)

• On attempts at reconciliation:
  “We have vastly different beliefs and worldviews, but we love each other.” (Beth Macy about her sister Cookie, 23:54)

• On the pain of ideological estrangement:
  “One in five families are estranged because of politics... How do we love beyond what we can’t understand?” (Beth Macy, 36:18)

---

Important Segments (Timestamps)

• Opening & Project Origin (Personal Memoir): 02:10–04:28
• Family History, Early Hardship: 04:39–09:21
• College Opportunity, Pell Grants: 09:38–14:32
• Decline of Urbana, School/Economic Challenges: 15:52–20:32
• Dysfunctional Systems, Ride-along w/ Attendance Officer: 16:26–20:32
• Estrangement & Political Divides: 03:24, 31:53–38:57
• Abuse within the Family, Conversations with Cookie: 22:13–29:25
• Community Radicalization, QAnon, Conspiracies: 31:53–36:01
• Moments of Grace, Reconnecting with Brother: 37:42–38:57

---

Final Takeaways

Macy’s conversation is a powerful meditation on how structural forces—economic decline, failing education, opioids—interact with private anguish and cultural rifts. Her reporting exposes a deeply “fractured” sense of self, place, and nation, yet also a stubborn hope for empathy and reconnection. Paper Girl is both a love letter and a lament for rural America, and a call to face painful truths together.

Key Message:
How do we recapture empathy and connection in an era of suspicion and conspiracy—especially when even families and oldest friends are emotionally and ideologically divided?

---

End of summary.

Transcript

[Beth Macy]

This message comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC this is FRESH AIR.

[Dave Davies]

I'm Dave Davies. Our guest today, Beth Macy is an award winning reporter, author and chronicler of working class America. More much of her work focusing on the Appalachian region. Her first book was about a Virginia furniture factory owner determined to resist Chinese competition. She followed with two books on the opioid crisis and grassroots efforts to fight it. Her latest book continues her focus on working people in rural America, but this time through the lens of a personal memoir. Macy grew up in the town of Urbana, Ohio, where she says she was one of the poorest kids in her class and felt it. She writes that her childhood had its share of chaos, addiction and utility cutoff notices, but that she managed to escape poverty and forge a career in journalism because she got to college and completed a four year degree. Her book is a deeply reported look at the Urbana she left, where the factory jobs have largely disappeared, creating economic pressures that lead to family dysfunction. While social supports and educational opportunities have eroded, she found it hard to communicate with family members and old friends who've embraced conspiratorial thinking. The more time she spent in her hometown, Macy writes, the more she recognized forces that were turning the community she loved into a poorer, sicker, angrier and less educated place. Beth Macy spent many years reporting for the Roanoke, Virginia Times and has written four previous books, three of which were New York Times best sellers. Her book Dopesick was made into a Peabody and Emmy Award winning Hulu series on which Macy served as an executive producer and co writer. Macy's new book is Paper Girl, a memoir of home and family in a Fractured America. Well, Beth Macy, welcome back to FRESH air.

[Beth Macy]

Thanks for having me, Dave.

[Dave Davies]

You know, most of your books have been these deeply reported studies on the impacts of many things on working people, deindustrialization, the opioid epidemic. This book is also deeply reported. It's not just your memories, but it's a look at your family and the community you grew up in and left and how they've changed. What decided to make you take on this project, which is more personal?

[Beth Macy]

It was really a moment that I had with my sister, who was 13 years older at our mother's deathbed. And it happened to be the Saturday after the election of 2020, the day they were counting the votes and my mom was in hospice. She was 93. She wasn't expected to know, but a day or two longer. And the hospice nurse's phone pinged and she goes, ugh, they're calling it for Biden. And my sister, who had never been political before, but who was very evangelical, sort of shouted, wait, it's fraudulent. He won't win. And I just was astonished. I didn't realize I how much we operated in different information ecosystems. But there were some clues. As I was driving home more often to see my mom, I noticed things like in Urbana, which was once, we were very proud about it being an important stop on the Underground Railroad. I would now see Confederate flags flying. And I noticed that a lot of my friends were posting really political things on Facebook. And even my own brother, who I was very close to, unfriended me at one point during the Trump's first administration because of, quote, all the liberal crap I post now I post, I'm a journalist. I post fact checked articles, mainly from the Washington Post and the New York Times, some of which are articles that I've written myself. And I was really stymied by that. And so I decided after mom's death to figure out what, if anything, was left to my family, my hometown, and my country.

[Dave Davies]

And it took you a couple, three years to do this, right?

[Beth Macy]

Yeah, about two years of going. I would go home about for a week, a month, and like scores of interviews.

[Dave Davies]

Okay, so let's talk about this. You grew up in Urbana, Ohio. It's a rural town, although most people weren't involved in agriculture. Your mom, it seemed, was the rock of your family. Tell us about her.

[Beth Macy]

Absolutely. So my mom was feisty, funny, gritty. I was the midlife accident, the youngest by far, a 4. And by the time I came along, my dad was a not very functioning alcoholic. And so it was really on mom to do everything to work. She would work at Grimes Manufacturing, which was the nation's premier maker of airplane lights and navigational lights. And she would work those jobs until the economy would tank periodically and she'd get laid off. And then she would have to pick up under the table work, like babysitting and waitressing really badly, she said. And all the things that the folks that I later interviewed for books like Factory man were doing. And so, I mean, that was one reason I was drawn to tell the story of what left behind, what was left behind by globalization, because I had grown up with that same kind of financial precarity. And. And as I started going back to Urbana for the book, I realized through interviews that the middle class, which had been very hardy, the schools, which had been very good when I was growing up, weren't so strong anymore. And so as I began to peel the layers of the onion, I started to realize that people weren't showing up for work, people weren't sending their kids to school. The school folks were saying, you know, it's really, really hard to educate a large portion of the students because first we have to teach them. What one person said was, how to human.

[Dave Davies]

Going back for a second, you said your dad was an alcoholic who did not do so well as his later years went on. And he was abusive to you at least once, right?

[Beth Macy]

Oh, verbally abusive, many times. Physically abusive a couple of times. It wasn't a great environment to grow up in, with the exception of my mom and my grandma Macy next door, who literally owned our house and kept a roof over our heads. But, you know, when I talked earlier about the hollowing out of the middle class, now, what was different back then is I had these friends whose parents were wonderful to me, who would give me rides home from sports practices and band practices, and who would buck me up when I was feeling low. And also because I had this incredible grandma next door who taught me how to read and write before I went to kindergarten. I had the confidence when I got to public schools and met these fantastic teachers to know that I might be poorer than the rest of the kids, but they weren't necessarily smarter than me. And I think that really helped me.

[Dave Davies]

There was a family that made you lunch almost every day for a year or something like this.

[Beth Macy]

Helen Wellman. It would be egg salad, tuna salad, chicken salad, and then we'd go back to egg. Daughter Tanya would take me home for lunch every day and every little heartbreak I ever had.

[Dave Davies]

Helen was my counselor, so it really was a community. The book is called Paper Girl, which has a double meaning. I mean, you delivered papers as a kid to your neighbors, and you then spent many, many years working for a daily newspaper. When did you start that? Tell us about that. Delivering papers.

[Beth Macy]

Yeah, I started helping the Kellenberger boys, who lived catty corner from me. They were a couple years older than me, and I was like, this is a pretty good gig. And they'd share their pa, and I loved getting a little bit of pocket money. And then I always wanted to buy my own clothes because I hated the things. Like, my mom probably couldn't afford nice clothes. So then I got my own paper route so I could buy my own clothes and I could save up for the field trip to Washington D.C. which would be my first time crossing state lines. It was almost like I thought the atmosphere would change as the Greyhound crossed the state line. And, you know, I just worked for things and I loved working. And the great thing about growing up in Urbana then, when it had a solid middle class, was I would deliver in my neighborhood to all kinds of people. Lower middle class, middle class, upper middle class. It was possible to grow up right around the corner from a wealthy person and to get to take advantage of public things that all kids got to take advantage of of.

[Dave Davies]

Then you managed to go to college, to Bowling Green State University, and this was clearly a huge thing in your life. You write that had you been born a decade later, you probably wouldn't have been able to go. Why?

[Beth Macy]

Because when I left for college in 1982, I remember filling out the financial aid paperwork. My mom helped me. Our family income was $8,000 a year, which put us in the lowest quartile. And, and the Pell Grant is need based, so we qualified for the full freight. So that means I got my state tuition paid for, my room and board, my textbooks were paid for, and I always had two or three work study jobs so I could have pizza and beer money just like everybody else and not feel like a food stamp recipient in the line at Whole Foods, you know, and it changed my life. It just totally changed my life going to college. Not that I made great money as a newspaper reporter for many, many years. It was paycheck to paycheck. But what it did is it, it took me out of the environment I was raised in and it put me in a peer group of people, including my husband, who were solidly middle class and not having to deal with addiction, trauma, utility cutoff notices. And it was just a peaceful environment that I hadn't before experienced.

[Dave Davies]

You describe your mom driving you to college that freshman year. And she knew that this was gonna change things, that you weren't gonna be coming back, didn't she?

[Beth Macy]

I think she did. I've got this funny picture of her sort of half waving, half smiling, pretending to cry, saying goodbye to me. And I remember saying on the way up, I was so nervous she could probably hear my stomach, you know, making weird. And, you know, about half asked her to turn around and take me back because no one in my family had been to college. And I remember her saying she had read, she was a great reader. I read in a magazine somewhere that your high school friends, it's great to hang out with your high school friends. But your college roommate will be your best friend for life. And she was trying to find optimistic things to say, which was really cute. Cause she probably really didn't want me to go. We were pretty close. And then when I moved out of state for my first reporting job, which was in Savannah, Georgia, that was out of state, at a daily newspaper, she looked at me and I knew she was gonna deadpan something. She goes, I've thought about it, you can't go. And she. At that point, I'm pretty sure she was certain that I would never come home again. But you know, we always visited and you know, we didn't always get along 100% of the time. We had that three day rule about house guests and fish. That's about how long we could stand each other. But we loved each other deep.

[Dave Davies]

One of my funniest moments in the book is a typewritten poem that she gave you after I think you'd had this argument about. I guess she would complain about how short your visits were while you were visiting, which was maybe not the best time to bring that up. Should we share that?

[Beth Macy]

Sure, yeah. It's called An Easter Greeting to My Mean Daughter. So what had happened was it must have been like early spring of call it 1984. And I was kind of having a hard time, I don't know if it was boyfriend or whatever. And I called home to talk to her and she's a recently widowed person still, you know, struggling to pay her bills. And she just wasn't very sympathetic. So I don't have the letter I wrote, thank God, because I wouldn't want to read it. But apparently I wrote quite an over the top mean letter saying that you should be supportive. So that Friday I drove home in my really, really used VW bug and I arrived home. She works second shift at the moment, and she very kindly left a crock pot full of chili. She made the best chili. And there was an Easter egg for me that she had bought from somebody at work. It was a chocolate peanut butter Easter egg and this poem called An Easter Greeting to My Mean Daughter. Your nasty letter really hurt. But over it I've got. I know you didn't mean it. You know I care a lot. And so at Easter time, let's try to nicen up a lot. Remember, I'm your super mom and the only one you got. And you are my special super kid, like which there is no other. So happy Easter, Beth, from your bitchy, bitchy mother.

[Dave Davies]

You mentioned that you got to go to school to get a four year degree because you qualified for a Pell Grant. What became of the Pell Grants?

[Beth Macy]

Well, the Pell grants are still in existence, but what happened is college tuitions just began. Skyro. The federal government started cutting education in the 80s under Reagan, who had a secretary of education named William Bennett who called the very notion of education as a portal to upward mobility. He called it sociological flimflammery. And as tuition started going up and state budgets were having shortfalls in the 90s, state legislatures were also defund higher ed. And the Pell Grants, they rose a little, but never commensurate with inflation. And the purchasing power of it just dwindled. So now if you're a kid like I was proportionally poor as I was then, Appell grant would only pay about 30% of a state university cost. And I, I, I wouldn't have been able to go. Even 10 years later, I wouldn't have been able to go. And, and my point in saying this is not only did it save my life, but I have paid that money back so many times through making more money and higher tax, you know, paying more in taxes. And we know that the typical Pell student pays that money back within 10 years time. So it's so short sighted to have basically taken this option away from poor folks.

[Dave Davies]

You know, I want to just note for readers that there's so much in this book. You talk to a lot of people, I mean, academics and policy experts to be sure, but friends, family, business people, community leaders, a lot of them, including one person who was the county school attendance officer, I guess what we used to call the truant officer. You rode along with her. Brooke Perry was her name. And through her you could see some of the dysfunction in the lives of a lot of families and the kids that lived there. You want to just share some of what you observed there?

[Beth Macy]

Sure. I mean, first of all, the numbers of kids that weren't showing up to school, this of course got really bad during COVID so we were still seeing some post Covid stuff. But I mean, the amount of miles she had put on her car, like 100,000 miles in four years on her car and just driving from one end of the county to the other and picking kids up, getting them out of bed, you know, giving them alarm clocks, rescuing children who had been sexually abused and taking them to social services, the things she saw curled my toes. And one day I would try to do a ride along with her almost every trip if she was available. But one day she said, oh, we're going to go to a doozy. And so she takes me to this gorgeous farmhouse surrounded by soybean fields way out in the country, and she says, this is the family. We have been trying to charge them with truancy charges for years now. They won't even fill out the paperwork to homeschool. They just tell us they're homeschooling. And, you know, dogs had attacked her. We get there, she has to leave a notice saying she's been there. But we have to call the cops to come out because there's a big sign right outside their gate that says it's a bullseye. And it. If you can read this, you're in shooting range. So they were basically what was called a term, I didn't know at the time, sovereign citizens. They don't believe in government. They don't. You know, they ride on our roads, but they don't believe in paying taxes or sending their kids to school. And another time, I was out with her, taking a young girl who was being raised by her grandparents, which is also not uncommon, largely thanks to the opioid crisis and fentanyl and methamphetamine. We were taking her to school, and then turns out a couple weeks later, the girl turned on Brooke and beat her up. And, you know, this woman, I wasn't there for that, but I talked to her right after, and I followed up. And just like, she was working so hard to help these kids. She would like, if they would have a good week of attendance, she would figure out what it was they really wanted. One wanted to go to Comic Con conference in Columbus. So Brooke takes the girl as a reward for going to school on her own dime. And we know, because I've done the research, that. But it is these relationships that really make the difference. It's not standardized testing. It's relationships with teachers, with counselors, with folks like Silas, band director, and people like Brooke and people like Christine, who was a counselor, who said, I have to teach him how to human. When and when she does that, it works.

[Dave Davies]

What did she mean by that? Teach them how to human?

[Beth Macy]

Well, I didn't know what she meant either. She was my very first call. Somebody said, you ought to call her, because her job is to help kids figure out whether they're gonna go into the military, they're gonna go into the workforce, or they're gonna go to college. And when I said, what's the biggest challenge? She said, you know, right at the start of conversation, she says, well, honestly, it's. I have to teach them how to human. I said, what do you mean? She said, they show up to class, they don't have a pencil. You or I would have asked a friend for a pencil to borrow a pencil. Instead, they kind of shrug and say to the teacher, oh, I have a pencil, you know, rather than like asking nicely. So it's just basic things. And I, I found the same thing when I was hanging out at the Urbana Youth center where they're trying to teach them not only study skills, but also some work skills, like people, teenagers who have never picked up a broom before. They got to teach them how to sweep with a broom and things of that nature. And you know, to take your medicine when you're supposed to take your medicine. And again, the successes that I see are when it's the relationship is truly invested in heart to heart way. That's when folks can tend to start get better.

[Dave Davies]

We need to take another break here. Let me reintroduce you. We are speaking with Beth Macy. Her new book is Paper Girl, A Memoir of Home and Family in a Fractured America. She'll be back to talk more after this short break.

[Beth Macy]

Break.

[Dave Davies]

I'm Dave Davies and this is FRESH.

[NPR Announcer]

AIR support for npr. And the following message come from Green Chef. Green Chef makes it easy to spend less time in the kitchen and more time enjoying fall. Green Chef supports your wellness journey with organic and seasonal produce recipes and weekly meal plans. Make this fall your healthiest yet with Green chef. Head to greenchef.com 50fresh and use code 50fresh to get 50% off your first month. Month, then 20% off for two months with free shipping. That's code [e-mail] 50fresh sea levels around.

[Podcast Host]

The world have been rising for years and now they're starting to rise faster. Here's the thing, though, it really depends on your individual location. Like Seattle will see less sea level rise than Annapolis, which will see less sea level rise than New Orleans. On Shortwave, NPR's science podcast, we get into why. Listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[NPR Announcer]

On the Throughline podcast from npr, immigration enforcement might be more visible now, but this moment didn't begin with President Trump's second inauguration or even his first, a series from Throughline about how immigration became political and a cash cow. Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dave Davies]

You write about your siblings. There are three. You're the youngest of four. All of them, I have to say, are quite interesting people to read about. One of the most troubling Stories involves your sister cookie, who is 13 years older than you. Is that right? She became a teenage mom, had daughters, had a couple of marriages, and then eventually married a third husband recommended by her pastor in a fundamentalist church. And you're right that in 1983, Cookie's third husband sexually abused Cookie's daughter Liza, her daughter from a previous marriage. What does she do, Cookie?

[Beth Macy]

She goes to her pastor, who has helped her when she was a single mom and who she believes thoroughly. And she asked him what she should do. And she told me not long ago, she went in. They knew why she was coming in. They were on the floor praying, and they looked up at her, and they said, we believe her husband is a good man. And that was it. End of story. And she still will tell you. I don't know if that happened. I don't know if that did or didn't happen. And Liza lives with this every day of her life. She told me she thinks about it almost every day. She says, he ruined my life.

[Dave Davies]

So your family still had a relationship with Cookie. I mean, your sister, your mom's daughter, who had disbelieved her own daughter and chosen to believe her husband and pastor about the abuse. What kind of relationship did you and your family have with Cookie after that?

[Beth Macy]

Well, we had no relationship with her husband. I've not seen him since 1985 or 6. I. I don't even know what he looks like. And. But I've seen Cookie, you know, once a year maybe, while visiting mom. And we have vastly different beliefs and worldviews, but we love each other. You know, she loves my children, and she's maybe not accepting of who they are as people. They're both queer, but she loves them. And I was surprised. Recently, I stopped in to visit her because she had bought a condo. And I said, oh, there's my kids on your kitchen bulletin board. She said, of course. I put their pictures up. I love them. And we hadn't really spoken much since the interview because it was rough.

[Dave Davies]

Well, that's what I want to talk about you. For the book, you wanted to interview Cookie about this, and she agreed to talk to you on the record, on tape. Tell us about that conversation.

[Beth Macy]

Well, we. So we meet at her oldest daughter's house, and I start out with things we can agree on. I read her some letters that our hilarious mom wrote, and we laughed, and I. We looked at old pictures. She brought some photo albums. I mean, I like to do that with people I'm interviewing. It helps people remember things. And then we got into the stuff with Liza, and we had a fairly reasonable conversation about it. She didn't really shy away from it. And then it had gone so well. I mean, it had been like two and a half hours. And I had to go meet my friend Betty for dinner. And I'm packing up my stuff to go, and I thought, I'm just gonna ask her about Max. Cause I had announced on. Put a thing on Facebook that. With a picture of my son Max, who was getting ready to marry his fiance, Zach. And, you know, and no one in my family liked it except for my sister Terry. 1 like, nobody reached out. Nobody congratulated me. And so I. And, you know, Max, after he came out in college, stopped going home to Ohio with me. And he told me later it was because he was worried what Cookie would say to him and that then I would have to go off on her. And he didn't want that to happen. So as I'm packing up, I say, you know, Cookie, Max thinks you don't like him because he's gay. And she says, I love him, but I don't like that he's gay. And then kind of all my rural urban bridge training went out the window, and my face turned red, and I kind of lost composure. And we start arguing about Leviticus and your theology versus my theology. And then finally I take a deep breath and I say, I'm thinking of Mr. Rogers. Use your words. I said, cookie, I'm getting really mad. I guess if we're going to have any relationship at all, we shouldn't talk about this. And later, a little bit later, she says, well, did he get made fun of when he was in school? And I said, well, if you'll remember, when he was 3 and 4, he'd go to preschool wearing red ruby slippers and a cape. He had me sew for him. And she goes, yeah, I remember she said, well, did he get made fun of when he went to kindergarten? And I said, yeah, he did. And he stopped doing that. And he became angry and anxious because he was having to hide who he was. But I thought, it's a crack. It's a little crack of empathy. Because she's asking what it felt like to be him and to parent him. And, you know, I don't know if it makes a difference, but we've got to figure out ways when we're talking to people who have different views to start to be vulnerable around them, too. I should have seen said, you know, I did the best I could with what I knew at the Time. What would you have done? So, live and learn.

[Dave Davies]

But when you talk to her, I mean, you talked about the abuse of her daughter by her husband, who she was still married to and living with. And then later, when you were putting the book together, you honored a promise you had made to give her a chance to respond to what you'd written. So in a phone call, you read to her some of what you had written about the incident, about the abuse of Liza, her daughter, by her husband. How did she react?

[Beth Macy]

Well, she didn't say much of anything. And then I could hear her sort of almost hyperventilating or crying in the background. And she said, what should I do? And I said, well, if it were me, I would call up Liza and apologize to her for not believing her for all these years. And she said, I don't know. I don't know. And it was like it was just sinking in that what Liza had reported maybe had been true. And then the next day, she texted me and she asked me not to put it in. And I said, look, I'm not the perpetrator here. The church and your husband. Your husband and the minister that told you to ignore a suffering child are the perpetrators, not me. And, you know, we haven't really talked about it since. We've talked a little, but not a lot, which isn't unusual for us.

[Dave Davies]

But, you know, I'm interested in knowing what. In the initial interview for the book and then in this subsequent conversation and text exchange, did she say she didn't believe Liza? She didn't believe that her daughter had been a.

[Beth Macy]

She said she wasn't sure. She said that she kept saying I was always there. How could it not happen? I mean, I have letters that the girls wrote me. Oh, mom's at a prayer meeting this week in Nashville or whatever. My mom isn't here. I mean, you're never always there with your kids, right? But in her mind, this is the story that she believed. It was. To me, it was just like she was the under the thumb of this misogynistic Christian nationalist, men who were telling her what to do and what to think.

[Dave Davies]

And her husband is still alive?

[Beth Macy]

Yep.

[Dave Davies]

They live together? Yeah.

[Beth Macy]

Yes.

[Dave Davies]

Yeah. Let's take another break. Here we are speaking with Beth Macy. Her new book is Paper Girl, A Memoir of Home and Family in a Fractured America. We'll continue our conversation after this short break. This is Fresh air.

[Podcast Host]

Here at Life Kit, we take advice seriously. We bring you evidence based recommendations. And to do that, we talk with researchers and experts on all sorts of topics because we have the same questions you do, like what's really in my shampoo? Or should I let my kid quit soccer? Or what should I do with my savings in uncertain economic times? You can listen to NPR's Life Kit and the NPR App app or wherever you get your podcasts. Short Wave thinks of science as an invisible force showing up in your everyday life, powering the food you eat, the medicine you use, the tech in your pocket. Science is approachable because it's already part of your life. Come explore these connections on the Short Wave podcast from npr.

[Dave Davies]

Taylor Swift is once again taking over the Internet. Her new album touches on her relationship with fiance Travis Travis Kelce, as well as a simmering beef with a fellow pop star. We're delving into the life of a showgirl and unpacking all the joyful bangers. Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Urbana and the surrounding county. Champaign county, right Our Trump Country. He probably knew this. I wonder if were you surprised when you started doing interviews at the depth and intensity of the support he had there?

[Beth Macy]

I was. And I was really taken by how many people were believers in Q Anon. And the first time I went, I asked my old buddy. We were both class clown. He was the male class clown, I was the female to drive me around town because he was recently retired firefighter and he knew everyone in town. And as we drove around the east in Urbana, he would just point out houses and he would go, she's queuing on, he's queuing on. I was like, what, are you kidding me? So I invited one of the people that he said, who we both knew out for coffee. And sure enough, he wasn't wrong. And I was just listening to her say, Tom Hanks is a pedophile, Michelle Obama is a trans woman. Just on and on with this crazy stuff. And she would say, you didn't get the vaccine, did you? Oh no, you did. And the COVID vaccine. And I started to think, my family's not so crazy after all. Like, the other person that I reconnected with was a ex boyfriend named Bill that I hadn't seen in 38 years. And I decided to interview him because a mutual friend had said he had gone from being the most liberal person we knew to spending four to seven hours a day on the Internet looking at Russian propaganda. And that was a fascinating story. So I started meeting with him. I probably spent 10 hours. I probably have 10 hours of recordings with him. And just to see the Progression. He went from Bernie to Jill Stein. And I tell you, where I think he turned was he was a practicing Catholic and pretty active in his church, and a deacon in the church had taken him out after hearing that Bill was going to vote not for Hillary, but for Jill Stein, and said, you might as well vote for Trump. And then he thought they were going out for beer. So he felt, like, really ambushed, and all of his friends were giving him a hard time, and he just basically sequestered himself online after that. And as I'm reporting on this book, then the Springfield story breaks out, and lo and behold, Bill, my ex, becomes the lead spokesman for the anti Haitian contingent in Springfield, Ohio, which is where he lived. It's about 18 miles from Urbana. And that was shocking, too. It was like, there he is on PBS NewsHour, there he is on BlazeTV. And, you know, I think the last communication I had from him, he was espousing, you know, great replacement theory beliefs and being really, really rude to me, and I decided not to really engage with him anymore.

[Dave Davies]

Now, it's interesting that you also report that you talk to people who were, you know, affluent and educated folks in Urbana, people who were developers and the like, and many of them held these conspiratorial views, too.

[Beth Macy]

Oh, yeah, they. They all said. It was like they all got together and decided, we're going to say. We're going to say the election of 2020 was fishy and that the people who perpetrated the January 6th storming of the Capitol were really antifa. And, you know, a woman I met who worked in the Economic Development office said she had to quit her church because everybody just assumed that the election was rigged and that everybody thought the same way she did. And in Urbana, three out of four people did vote for Trump. And I don't think everybody who voted for him is that far down the conspiracy rabbit holes, but it was a lot more people than I thought.

[Dave Davies]

And some of them were old friends of yours. Like, I think one of your very first friend was an African American woman named Joy, who is very active in her church now. And you had some real back and forth with her, right? With you sending her information about mainstream media and fact checking and all of that. How did that go?

[Beth Macy]

It was surprising as well. I mean, when she said that she didn't believe George Floyd was murdered by Derek Chauvin. You know, I guess she believed he had a little fentanyl in his system, and that's what did it. And it wasn't a police murder. You know, at one point, she says that children are identifying as cats and taking litter boxes to school. And I just kind of, like, leaned back in my chair and rolled my eyes. And she goes, I know, but how do we still love each other beyond what we can't understand or agree with? And that's where we are. How do we love beyond now? In this nation, one in five families are estranged because of politics. There was a piece in the New York Times last week in the Daily, where they did a survey showing that 64% of Americans think we're too divided to be able to solve any of our problems and that our divisions actually are bigger concern now than the economy. I mean, that's where we are now. I had no idea that's where we would be when I started this project. And I'm still very close to Joy. I mean, she's a lay minister. She conducted my mom's funeral. I love her. She was one of my. She and her parents. Her parents were both educators. She gave me a ride to school every day. I wouldn't be who I am without her. But her question, I think about it all the time. How do we love beyond what we can't understand?

[Dave Davies]

You spent more time in Urbana, I guess, over the last two or three years when you were reporting for this book, than you had in decades. Do you think you'll stay in closer touch with old friends that you had and new ones you made?

[Beth Macy]

I hope I can. During Trump's first administration, my brother, who was always really supportive of my kids and would come to all their plays and concerts and stuff, unfriended me on Facebook because of, quote, all the list liberal crap I posed. And during this homegoing project, we became close again, and to the point of. At one point, Tim leans over to me. He's visiting us here in Virginia, and he's going to go to a Palmyra show. That's my youngest kid's band. My youngest kid is Non Binary, who goes by the name Sasha. And he said, well, tell me about this. Does he still date girls? And because I had done kind of the work on how to respond and have these conversations, I took a breath and I said, well, they are dating a young woman now. Yes. And I sometimes mess up the pronouns, too, which is true. I do still sometimes mess up the pronouns. But he was so kind about it and just curious that I went there with him. And I think we, like, he showed me grace. I showed him grace back. And that's where we need to get back to in this country. He now will drive eight hours to see a Palmyra show, which is just awesome.

[Dave Davies]

Beth Macy, thanks for speaking with us again.

[Beth Macy]

Thanks for having me again, Dave. You're the best.

[Dave Davies]

Beth Macy's new book is Paper Girl, a memoir of home and family in a fractured America. Coming up, David Biancooley has an appreciation of TV writer and producer Rod Serling, creator of the series the Twilight Zone. This is FRESH air.

[Podcast Host]

A lot of short daily news podcasts focus on just one story, but right now you probably need more. On up first from NPR, we bring you three of the world's top headlines every day in under 15 minutes because no one story can capture all that's happening in this big crazy world of ours on any given morning. Listen now to the up first podcast from npr.

[Beth Macy]

America's global role is shifting fast. On sources and methods we explain how and why. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

[Dave Davies]

I've talked to spies, I've reported from.

[Beth Macy]

War zones, I've interviewed ambassadors, generals, presidents. Want to understand what is happening around.

[Dave Davies]

The world and how it affects us? Join me and my fellow reporters as.

[Beth Macy]

We break it down for you. Listen to sources and methods on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[NPR Music Host]

Making time for the news is important, but when you need a break, we've got you covered on All Songs Considered, NPR's music podcast. Think of it like a music discovery show, a well deserved escape with friends and, yeah, some serious music insight.

[Beth Macy]

I'm gonna keep it real. I have no idea what this story is about.

[NPR Music Host]

Hear new episodes of All Songs Considered every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts.

[Dave Davies]

On October 2nd, the state of Ohio placed a new historical marker on the campus of Antioch College. It commemorates screenwriter and TV writer and producer Rod Serling, who graduated from Antioch after his military service in World War II and later returned to teach there. October 2, not coincidentally, marked the 66th anniversary of the premiere of Serling's the Twilight Zone on CBS. Our TV critic David B. And Cooley says both the man and his TV work deserve all the remembrances they can get.

[NPR Music Host]

Rod Serling's most famous anthology series premiered in 1959 and was canceled in 1964. But even those born too late to watch it on CBS during its original five season run were very familiar with it decades later. Local stations showed reruns in syndication, and kids would rush to their TV sets to watch it in the afternoons or sneak to watch it late at night. Eventually, cable TV entered the mix with networks like the Syfy Channel presenting New Year's marathons of old Twilight Zone episodes, introducing Rod and his captivating ideas to an even newer generation of viewers. But today, the TV universe is fragmented. You still can watch every episode of the classic Twilight Zone on Paramount plus, but how many people, even those who subscribe to that streaming service, know it's there? And Serling was anything but a one hit, one show wonder. By the time he began hosting the Twilight Zone, he already had won three Emmys in a row for writing the live Golden Age dramas Patterns, Requiem for a Heavyweight and the Comedian. And after the Twilight Zone, he wrote the screenplays for Seven Days in May and Planet of the Apes. He also wrote a TV movie called Carol for Another Christmas for ABC in 1964, the same year the Twilight Zone ended. That show was so bold and chilling, yet has been so largely forgotten, that many of you may never have heard of it, much less heard the excerpt I'll soon play Rod Serling was born on Christmas Day in 1924 and died at age 50 in 1975. The Ohio Historical Marker at Antioch is one way of remembering Rod and his creative output. Another way happened last month when the non profit Rod Serling Memorial foundation, with involvement from members of his surviving family, mounted its annual Serling Fest in Rod's hometown of Binghamton, New York. The town's recreation park has long featured a carousel refurbished with images of Rod and from the Twilight Zone tied to his nostalgic Zone episodes inspired by Binghamton. Last year, the Memorial foundation erected a statue there in Rod's honor as part of Serlingfest. And this year, in September, the foundation commemorated the 50th anniversary of Rod Serling's death death and the centenary of his birth by inviting speakers to Binghamton to talk about his influence and legacy. His daughter Anne, an author in her own right, was there. So were Frank Spotnitz, who wrote for the X Files, and Joseph Doherty, who wrote for 30something and has a new book coming out about Rod Serling. And so Was I. We all were there to celebrate Rod's accomplishments and his ideas and to point out why they were as important and topical as several speakers quoted from or referred to Rod's first season episode the Monsters Are Due on Maple street from 1960. Serling had launched the Twilight Zone because he sensed correctly, he could say things in a fantasy setting that he was prevented from saying at the time. In more traditional TV dramas, Maple street was about how aliens from outer space agitated people in small town neighborhoods merely by provoking them to mistrust one another. At the time, it was a parable about McCarthyism but played at serling fest, Serling's epilogue had an all too contemporary ring, especially if you imagine social media as a modern equivalent weapon of choice. Here are the aliens observing their test subjects, followed by serling's own observations.

[Narrator/Reader]

And this pattern is always the same, with few variations. They pick the most dangerous enemy they can find and it's themselves. All we need do is sit back and watch. Then I take it this place, this maple street, is not unique. By no means. Their world is full of maple streets. And we'll go from one to the other and let them destroy themselves, one to the other, one to the other, one to the other. The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill and suspicion can destroy. And a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own for the children and the children yet unborn. And the pity of it is that these things cannot be confined to the twilight zone.

[NPR Music Host]

I promised a taste of carol for another Christmas, and here it comes. Serling took the charles dickens story at christmas carol and adapted it to modern times. His scrooge like protagonist, a military leader who believed in isolationism, was visited by ghosts who tried to persuade him that a peaceful future depended upon supporting other countries in their times of need. Steve Lawrence, in a powerful performance, played the ghost of christmas past, arguing his case.

[Narrator/Reader]

Yeah, after 1918, we got sick of war, fed up all those American kids getting blown to pieces out of sight in foreign places with strange sounding names. So for the next 20 years, we closed our eyes and decided what we couldn't see wouldn't happen.

[Beth Macy]

Right.

[Narrator/Reader]

Of course, we don't want to take all the credit, do we? I mean, we weren't the only ones playing shut eye when old Adolf walked into the Rhineland. France didn't want to get involved. Italy pulled down a window shade when hitler took Austria. England wasn't about to involve herself when Czechoslovakia went under. And Russia kept the phone off the hook while Poland was destroyed. And before you knew it, everybody was singing don't rock the boat while it sank slowly to the bottom.

[NPR Music Host]

The things Rod Serling wrote about and warned about are anything but dated. All these years later, you can still find and watch and think about the twilight zone. And I hope you do.

[Dave Davies]

David Biancooli is fresh air's television critic. His most recent book is the platinum age of television. From I love Lucy to the Walking dead. How TV became terrific. On tomorrow's show, Grammy Award winning singer and musician Levi sings and plays some songs for us. Her music is a hybrid of pop, jazz and classical music. She had rigorous classical training in Iceland where she's from. Her mother, who is Chinese, plays in the Iceland Symphony Orchestra. Levy has a new album. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram. P R FRESH air Bet you think.

[Beth Macy]

You'Re so poetic quoting epics and ancient prosecution. Truth be told, you're quite pathetic, Mr. Eclectic. Alan Poe, did you ever stop and give a wonder?

[Dave Davies]

Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are from Produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show for Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley. I'm Dave Davies. I'm Jesse Thorne. Ghostface Killa told me about when when he was a kid, he found the number of his hero, Dougie Fresh. He dialed it, he didn't really think.

[Narrator/Reader]

It through and he's like, hey, who this? And it just goes quiet just like that.

[Dave Davies]

Ghostface Killa that's on Bullseye from MaximumFun.org and NPR.

[Beth Macy]

Keeping up with the news can feel like a 24 hour job. Luckily, it is our job. Every hour on the NPR News now podcast, we take the latest morning most important stories happening and we package them into five minute episodes so you can easily squeeze them in between meetings. And on your way to that thing, listen to the NPR News now podcast.

[NPR Announcer]

Now you care about what's happening in the world? Stay informed with NPR's State of the World podcast. In just a few minutes, we take you to stories around the globe. You might hear the latest developments in world conflicts or about what global events mean. For the price of your coffee, listen to the State of the World podcast from NPR.