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- [00:01]
Terry Gross
This message comes from Grammarly. From emails to reports and project proposals, it's hard to meet the demands of today's competing priorities without some help. Grammarly is the essential AI communication assistant that boosts your productivity at work so you can get more of what you need done faster. Just a few clicks can tailor your tone and writing so you come across exactly as you intend. Get time back to focus on your high impact work. Download Grammarly for free@Grammarly.com podcast that's Grammarly.com podcast. This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Dwayne Johnson, is a wrestling star known in the ring as the Rock. He's won eight WWE Championships and he's a movie star. His new movie, which he produced and stars in, is a perfect fit in which he gets to use his muscles, his fighting ability and to show what a good and nuanced actor he can be. Fun for anyone who may have doubted it, it's called the Smashing Machine and it's based on the story of Mark Kerr, one of the American pioneers of mixed martial arts and of the ufc, the ultimate fighting Championship. The movie is about the high of having tens of thousands of fans cheering for you, the thrill of winning and the physical pain after some fights when muscles are torn or bones are broken and your face is smashed. Emily Blunt plays Kerr's girlfriend in a very combustible relationship, which strains under the pressures Kerr's career. Kerr is portrayed by Johnson as incredibly powerful and vulnerable, the paradox that I'd imagine characterizes many professional fighters. Johnson plays both extremes very convincingly. He optioned the movie and brought on Benny Safdie to direct it and Safdie's solo directing debut without his brother Josh. The movie is based in part on a documentary about Mark Kerr, and many of the scenes go closely follow the documentary, reproducing fights and statements made by Kerr. Dwayne Johnson's father was a pro wrestler, one of the first black stars whose ring name was Rocky Johnson. Dwayne Johnson's maternal grandfather was a Samoan pro wrestler and his grandmother was one of the first Samoan pro wrestling promoters. Johnson's TV series Young Rock was based on his childhood and his family. He also starred in the HBO series Ballers. Johnson made his movie debut in the 2001 film the Mummy Returns. He starred in the spinoff the Scorpion King and went on to star in two Jumanji films, Fast and Furious sequels, the Disney animated film Moana and its sequel, and Black Adam. He's hosted Saturday Night Live five times. Dwayne Johnson, welcome to FRESH air. I really like this movie a lot.
- [02:44]
Dwayne Johnson
Thank you, Terry. Good to talk with you.
- [02:46]
Terry Gross
I read that you considered the becoming a mixed martial arts fighter, but you didn't. Why did you consider it, and why did you not do it yourself?
- [02:56]
Dwayne Johnson
First of all, I realized I don't like getting punched in the face, so I prefer not to, as these guys do. But in 1997, I was wrestling for the WWE, and my career at that time wasn't going as planned, and it was actually going back backwards, and I wasn't making much progress, and I wound up getting hurt. I tore a ligament in my knee, and so I went home. And when I was sitting at home, that's when I really started to question whether or not I was on the right path of being a professional wrestler. And the reason why I considered MMA at that time was because guys like Mark Kerr, who I met, and a lot of his MMA fighting buddies at that time, from Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman, Don Frey, these are all guys who ultimately went on to become legends and godfathers of the world of mma. And those guys were making a lot more money, and they were wrestling out of Japan. And at that time, I was wrestling approximately 235 to 250 nights a year, so I was never home, and I was wrestling every single night in a different city. And so the wear and tear of my body was already beginning to set in, and it was just year one for me. So at that time, I began to consider a career in mma, thinking, I know they're making triple the money that I'm making, and they're only fighting maybe five to eight times a year. So I did consider it. And it was the summer of 1997, and as I was rehabbing my knee, I got a call from the WWE who said that we're gonna bring you back at the end of the summer, but there's gonna be one difference. And I said, what's that? And they said, we're going to make you a heel. And so in wrestling, a villain. A villain, yeah, exactly. And that's, at parlance, Babyface is a good guy. Heel is a villain. And they said, we're gonna make you a heel when you come back. I said, great, I just want any kind of change. And I went back as a villain, and probably about three months later, the rest was history. And I took on the Persona of the Rock.
- [05:24]
Terry Gross
It seems very counterintuitive that you're out of the game for a while because of a bad knee injury, and you're considering going into a type of fighting where the injuries are gonna be much worse. And so can you explain that to me? I realize there's money involved, but there's also, like, your body. Why would you want to subject yourself to even more injury?
- [05:45]
Dwayne Johnson
Sure. Well, it really came down to money, Terry. That's the truth. I was making $150,000 a year in 1997 wrestling. 235 dates a year. When you break that down and do the math, that's not a lot of money per match.
- [06:00]
Terry Gross
Well, considering how you're putting yourself at risk each night, too, I mean, it might be kind of staged, but that doesn't mean you're not going to get injured.
- [06:08]
Dwayne Johnson
No, those guys in wrestling, they get injured all the time. And even though it's performative and fictionalized, the wear and tear comes in, the falls, the slams, and also the wear and tear comes in the form of just consistently doing it every night in a different city. So in the world of pro wrestling, our goal was to entertain the fans, and our goal was to really protect each other in the ring so we can move on to the next town tomorrow night. Hopefully not injured, but if you were injured, we all worked injured, even the guys and the girls. Today, everyone is injured to some capacity, and everyone just protects each other as best they can.
- [06:48]
Terry Gross
Can you describe the difference between your babyface Persona and your Persona as the Rock?
- [06:53]
Dwayne Johnson
So my original name when I went in to WWE was Rocky Maivia. And I hated that name because it was when I got into wrestling. As you said in my introduction, my grandfather was a pro wrestler. My dad was a pro wrestler. My grandmother was one of the first female promoters in pro wrestling. So I came from a long lineage, and while very proud of my family's history in pro wrestling, I also wanted to make it on my own, and I wanted to carve my own path. And so they came up. WWE came up with this name, Rocky Maivia, a combination of my dad's name, Rocky Johnson, and my grandfather's name, High Chief Peter Maivia. So it was showing respect to my family lineage and all part of the good guy babyface Persona. And I remember having a conversation with Vince McMahon, who was the owner at that time of WWE, and he said, when you go out every night, I want you to smile. I said, can I ask you why? He goes, I want to make sure that the crowd thinks and knows that you're grateful to be here and you're grateful for the opportunity. So I always want you smiling. I want you to be the quintessential baby face. And I remember at that time, Terry thinking, well, I feel like there might be other ways for me to show how grateful I am. But also, this is a performance. And even before I went out with my big smiles, as requested from wwe, it just didn't feel right to me. So I made my debut and my very first match in wwe, which was actually my very first match ever, and I was in Madison Square Garden, and I went out and we had my match, and. And I wind up winning the whole thing, which was a pretty incredible night. And the smiles were consistent. Every night I would smile, but then what happened quite quickly is the fans picked up on that, and it wasn't good because they felt, and it was true, that I wasn't being just real and authentic, and they began to turn on me.
- [09:14]
Terry Gross
When you won that first match, did you know you were gonna win? Was it choreographed for you to win?
- [09:18]
Dwayne Johnson
Oh, yeah. So that's the world of pro wrestling is. You know, and we're well aware of who's gonna win that night and who's not. That's why I'm always careful to say, not to say how many people actually beat, because it's actually. I didn't, you know, and they allowed it to happen, so everybody supports everybody. But, yes, I did know that.
- [09:37]
Terry Gross
Okay, so compare the babyface to the Rock.
- [09:40]
Dwayne Johnson
Mm. So now when I get the call from WWE and says, hey, after your injury, when you heal up at the end of the summer, we're gonna bring you back as a heel. And then that night, I got on the microphone and I said, rocky Maivia is a lot of things, because they were chanting Rocky sucks, which was a lot of fun. In that world when you have 20,000 people. Well, here's the thing. In that world, when you're a good guy and they're chanting Rocky sucks, that's a death sentence. Now, when you're a bad guy and you say, hey, I may be a lot of things, but sucks isn't one of them. Then I said something that really lit the crowd, and they just booed even more. But it was different back then, because then I became a heel that night, and within three months, I became the hottest heel in the company. And. And the ascension happened pretty quick. But you know what, Terry? That moment was so defining for me because it really allowed me to step into my power. And what I mean by that is just being real and authentic. And even in this crazy world of pro wrestling, every time I grab the microphone and I said something or every Action that I did came from a very, very real place. And it was, like, instantaneously, the crowd knew it, and they said, oh, this guy's holding up a mirror. That's who he is. And we love it. And then the Rock was born.
- [11:13]
Terry Gross
I thought you were gonna tell me that you trash talked the audience, that you became a villain. Oh, to the audience.
- [11:19]
Dwayne Johnson
Well, that's what I did do. I became like the Don Rickles of pro wrestling.
- [11:25]
Terry Gross
So there's a scene in the new movie the Smashing Machine where we see that Mark Kerr is known for the body takedown by grabbing his opponent by the legs, by the back of his legs, and pulling up his legs so that the opponent is flat on his back, while Kerr stands over him and smashes his face till it's all bloodied and you know the match has to end. There was a similar scene in your wrestling career. This was, I think, WrestleMania 14 against Ken Shamrock. And Shamrock knocks you out. You gets you in an ankle hold. The announcers are speculating that he's broken your ankle. You're bleeding from the mouth. I can't tell if the blood is real. Your head is hanging over the edge of the ring, and you're taken away on a stretcher, and Shamrock has won. The referee reverses his decision and declares you the winner because Shamrock refused to break the ankle hold. He gets into a rage. He literally throws the ref out of his way. Runs over to the stretcher as you're being wheeled out of the arena and starts attacking you. So how much of that is staged and how much of that was real? Were you really hurt? Was that real blood?
- [12:37]
Dwayne Johnson
In professional wrestling, it is always and only real blood. And that's the truth. That night was WrestleMania, and I knew what the finish of the match was going to be. I knew that he was not gonna break the ankle lock and the referee was gonna reverse the decision. We knew that. We talked backstage. We rehearsed for hours and hours and hours. And prior us getting to WrestleMania, myself and Ken Shamrock, we were already wrestling each other every night on the road. So by the time we got to WrestleMania, we had our chemistry, we had our alchemy, and we. We had a really, really great match that night. So the reason why I was bleeding from the mouth is because he suplexed me. And this is where a lot of times in wrestling, you can train, you can have your techniques, you can do your best to protect your guy, your dance partner, as we call it. But sometimes just things hurt. And you land in a way that hurts. So he suplexed me, and I landed in a way that really, for the moment, damaged my lungs and blood vessels.
- [13:44]
Terry Gross
Oh.
- [13:45]
Dwayne Johnson
And that's why I was spitting up blood. So that was part of the match that we didn't plan but just happens. So I was on the stretcher, which I knew the ambulance was gonna come and take me out. It was all part of the finish. So I did know everything that was gonna happen that night, but I did not know that I was gonna start bleeding from my lungs.
- [14:06]
Terry Gross
Oh, that sounds horrible. Did Shamrock know you were bleeding for real and that you were seriously injured?
- [14:11]
Dwayne Johnson
He did. He asked me, there's ways that wrestlers can talk in the ring. And he says, hey, are you okay? And I said, I feel like I'm okay. At least I could breathe. Let's get through the match. And so we finished the match, and I think that's happened to me a few times, and it's happened to a lot of wrestlers, too, as well. If you're falling from 6, 8, 10ft and you land in a certain way, it's just the nature of the landing.
- [14:35]
Terry Gross
Sometimes, your father told you, you have to sell your pain. You know, in wrestling, you have to make it as dramatic as possible. I mean, people are showing up to see, you know, the drama, the drama of the suffering. That's right. So in mma, you don't have to sell your pain. You're in pain. I mean, those. When a blow is landed, it's for real. It's not rehearsed. I want to play a clip from the documentary that your new film, the Smashing Machine, is largely based on. It's a documentary about Mark Kerr and his career as an MMA fighter. So in this part, he's describing how the first time he fought, there was this overwhelming fear and nausea, and he didn't know if he could do it, but he was okay. Once he stepped into the ring, he'd already been a freestyle wrestler, so he's starting MMA because he's broke. He needs the money. As you said, there's more money in mma, at least at that time, than there was in wrestling. So we see his first MMA fight doing a takedown of his opponent, getting him on his back, and then smashing him his face.
- [15:46]
Dwayne Johnson
And.
- [15:46]
Terry Gross
And then we hear Mark Kerr talking about the things that he does in a fight, and he's actually describing what he's doing in the fight that we're watching. So here's the clip.
- [16:01]
Dwayne Johnson
It kind of got me fired up. You know, I was like, okay, I can get in there and just, manhandle, these people. Hulk tried to get out of the ring, left the ring, he's taking a shot. This one situation with two possible outcomes. You're either gonna beat somebody's ass or you're gonna get your. And then the question you ask yourself is, how competitive are you? What lanes are you willing to go to try to win? You gonna poke him in the eye? Are you gonna take your thumb and dig it in a cut, Pull it open a little wider? Of course you will.
- [16:37]
Terry Gross
So we're not only hearing him say, of course you'll do all that. You'll put the finger in his cut, and we're seeing him actually do it. Did you ask yourself that question, putting yourself in Kerr's shoes, to portray him on screen, about, you know, how far would you go to win if you were not wrestling but doing MMA and doing it for real, where the blows actually do always connect and you do want to bloody the person to win.
- [17:09]
Dwayne Johnson
It's very primal, and for some folks, that's tough. It's hard to listen to. It can be hard to see and watch. But it takes a very, I think, unique person to become an elite MMA fighter. And you get locked in a cage or a ring, and it's two people enter and one's gonna lose and one's going to win. And what made Mark Kerr special was, I think, sure, he was a physical anomaly. His body, Terry was his silhouette, his body, his shoulders, his legs. He was a dominant amateur wrestler. And for wrestlers who then transition into mma, they have a very unique build and their shoulders, their traps, their quads, but also they have this. A different kind of quality to their muscle. And there's a lot of it's like fast twitch quality to their muscle. And what made Mark unique was he was this rare breed of 6 foot 2, 275, 80 pounds. He could move like a cheetah. But he also had this willingness to do whatever it took to win. And that means, as wild as it sounds, and during the fights, if his opponent had a big cut or gash in his face, Mark would take his thumb and he would make that gash and cut even bigger, and he would begin to pull it open and put his thumb in there. Now, again, you got to keep in mind that what you just let the listeners hear, that was from a tournament in Brazil. And that tournament was, you go down to Brazil, and that was the first time he ever had a fight, ever. And he essentially gets thrown to the wolves. And in this tournament, there were very little to no rules, no gloves, no boxing gloves, didn't have to have a mouth guard. You can stick your finger, thumb in cuts. You can knee to the groin, knee to the heads, whatever you wanted to do to win. And in these tournaments, if you won that night, then you would continue to fight, not another night, but that same night. And if you won that match, you would go on and fight again that same night.
- [19:55]
Terry Gross
That's crazy, Terry.
- [19:57]
Dwayne Johnson
It's nuts. It was crazy back then. So Mark went into that. It was, this is life or death. I'm a gladiator. And so that's the Mark that we just heard. And that night he went on to win, I think it was four matches, four fights that night, all in one night. And, and the legend of Mark Kerr was born. But what makes him different, and this is the paradox, is he is so I know it sounds funny, Terry, but he is so sweet and he's so gentle outside of the ring and kind. And everyone who he would beat and maul that night like a lion, he would check on them and he would make sure they're okay. And when they got to the back in the dressing room, he would go to them and say, hey, are you okay? Sorry about that.
- [20:47]
Terry Gross
Well, we have to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Dwayne Johnson. He produced and stars in the new film the Smashing Machine. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH.
- [20:58]
Dwayne Johnson
AIR on the Throughline podcast from npr. Immigration enforcement might be more visible now, but this moment didn't begin with President Trump's second inauguration or even his first, a series from Throughline about how immigration became political and a cash cow. Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, can you hear me? If you can, it means you and I were left behind. The Christian rapture was predicted to happen this past week. It didn't. But that doesn't change the fact that a lot of you all feel like we're living in the end of the times. And on It's Been a Minute, I'm getting into what, regardless of religion, you're doing with that feeling. Listen to It's Been a Minute on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:52]
Terry Gross
A lot of short daily news podcasts focus on just one story, but right now you probably need more on. Up first from NPR, we bring you three of the world's top headlines every day in under 15 minutes, because no one story can capture all that's happening in this big, crazy world. Of ours on any given morning. Listen now to the upverse podcast from npr. I want you to, if you don't mind, to describe some of the injuries that you've suffered in the ring and tell us how you would describe your pain threshold.
- [22:26]
Dwayne Johnson
Mmm. Okay, let's see inside of the ring and outside of the ringing. And keep in mind, I, before I was suplexing 300 pound men and trying.
- [22:37]
Terry Gross
Can you explain what suplexing is?
- [22:39]
Dwayne Johnson
Sure. So suplex is a wrestling maneuver that started in amateur wrestling, and there's multiple kinds of suplexes, but basically you would grab your opponent, either lock them around the waist where you're face to face, or from behind, lock them around the waist, and you lift them up and drive them down. They're a maneuver that allow one to dominate a match, whether it be amateur wrestling or professional wrestling or an mma. And so in my career from football to wrestling, here's a little laundry list of my injuries. I've had five knee surgeries, torn ligaments in my knees. I tore my Achilles, which required surgery. So four. I had four or five knee surgeries. I can't remember now, a complete Achilles repair on my Achilles tendon, my left leg. Let's see a complete shoulder reconstruction where I tore everything. And what happened was it's called a sublux, so that's when your bone gets ripped out of socket. And so when something like that happens, it's pretty traumatic. And that happened on the football field for me, and I had to get all of it repaired. And the worst injury that I had, if those weren't bad enough, I was wrestling a wrestler who is now a famous actor.
- [24:16]
Terry Gross
This is John Cena.
- [24:17]
Dwayne Johnson
Yeah, I was wrestling John Cena at MetLife Stadium for WrestleMania, and it was for the WWE title. And in that match, I wind up tearing my quadricep and my adductor off my pelvis. And when that happened, I knew something was. Was really wrong. I'd been hurt in the ring a whole bunch of times and. And I remember asking the referee first, he looked at me, he says, hey, are you okay? I said, I don't know. I said, I think I'm okay because I was lying on the mat. I just felt something, a few things pop. And that's what happens. That's what you feel when something gets popped off your pelvis.
- [24:53]
Terry Gross
But I. I'm hurting just hearing this.
- [24:57]
Dwayne Johnson
I said, how much time do we have left in the match? And he said, about 20 minutes. Can you go on? And I said, yes. So we went on, we finished the match. But unfortunately, when something like that happens to your body and you continue to either wrestle your match or play your game or fight your fight, whatever it is, it's like a chain reaction, and then everything becomes weak. And when that happened, when I tore my quad and my adductor off my pelvis, it made my abdominal wall very weak. And then I got multiple tears in my abdominal wall because I continued the match.
- [25:36]
Terry Gross
Why did you say that you could go on when you were pretty sure that something pretty major had happened?
- [25:43]
Dwayne Johnson
Well, I stood up and I tried to walk, and I didn't really have a lot of walking ability, but I knew that I had my. My left leg was working really well. My right leg was numb, but nothing was sticking out of my skin. And I just felt in that moment, Terry, that I felt like. Because the pop was pretty traumatic, like, I felt it, and I thought something was piercing through my skin, and I reached down, and it was kind of like I tried to, as subtle as I can, in front of 80,000 people and kind of stick my hand in my trunks, and I felt down in that area, and nothing was sticking through the skin. And also your adrenaline is going, and there's 80,000 people, and they're there for the main event, and they're there to watch the whole show, but we are the main event. And I trusted John, trusted the universe and the good Lord to give me strength.
- [26:38]
Terry Gross
And did John Cena know that you were seriously injured? Were you able to convey that to him?
- [26:44]
Dwayne Johnson
I didn't want to tell him that because I know the moment I tell him, hey, something's wrong, Then knowing him the way I do, because I would do the same thing. He would want to end the match.
- [26:55]
Terry Gross
How would he have ended it? Like, how do you do that?
- [26:58]
Dwayne Johnson
He would have said, let's go home. And in wrestling parlance, when we say to each other in the ring, let's go home, that means we're going into the finish, and within a minute, we're going to. This match will end when you.
- [27:08]
Terry Gross
When you say, let's go home, is a way of reverting right to the end and still making it seem convincing.
- [27:14]
Dwayne Johnson
Yeah. So let's take this, for example. In this WrestleMania match, if he would have asked me, hey, are you okay? And I say, no, there's something wrong. And he says, okay, let's go home. We would know where to pick up our finishes. So it's almost like if you go right to the third act of the script, we would go there, and then we would go home and Then that would be the end of the match. So I didn't want to tell John that because I knew the match would end and I didn't want the match to end in that way because not only was it important to me to go out on my shield also, Terry, I knew this was my very last match of my entire career. My career was going to end on this night. No one knew, but I knew.
- [27:57]
Terry Gross
And what year was this?
- [27:59]
Dwayne Johnson
This was in 2013.
- [28:01]
Terry Gross
Okay.
- [28:02]
Dwayne Johnson
And the other reason, and maybe more important than my career ending, was I was doing the honors. So again, in wrestling parlance, when you're the world champion and you're carrying the wrestling business and the company on your shoulders, and you do what's called doing the honors, that means you are passing it on and you're passing the torch to someone who's going to carry it from here on out. And that was to John. And that was the finish of our match, was me giving him. Me doing the honors for him. And he was beating me in the middle of the ring. One, two, three. To become champion. And that's why I didn't want the match to end right away. I wanted him to have his moment. That's important.
- [28:47]
Terry Gross
So let's talk about your family. You're from a wrestling family. I'll repeat that. Your father was Rocky Johnson, one of the first black wrestlers, and he's in the WWE hall of Fame. Your maternal grandfather was High Chief Peter Maivia, who was very well known in Samoa, professional wrestler. And your grandmother, his wife took over the Polynesian Pacific Pro wrestling organization after your grandfather died. And how did wrestling change between your grandfather, your father, and your era?
- [29:24]
Dwayne Johnson
Good question. It became global and it became publicly traded. And it. And it. It evolved from wrestling in very, very small venues to stadiums throughout our country and. And around the world. And I was lucky in a way, Terry, in that my era, when I came into pro wrestling in the 90s, that was like the last man standing in terms of small promotions. So when I first got into pro wrestling, I didn't immediately go to the WWE because I wasn't ready and I was still green and I needed experience. So fortunately, there was a wrestling company called the uswa, and that wrestling company was based out of Nashville and based out of Memphis, and I lived in Memphis, and that's where I started. And the reason why I say I was really lucky in that, because it allowed me to cut my teeth every night in. I would wrestle in flea markets and barns and used car dealerships where people would come to buy a used car and there would be a ring in the parking lot and you would see wrestlers. And I had a my guarantee for wrestling, a match every day was 40 bucks. That was my guarantee. So we're making no money and really starving, but you just love to do it. So wrestling had changed and evolved from my grandfather to my dad to me in the wwe. But I was really lucky that before I got to the WWE, I was still able to learn that way and learn on the road.
- [31:11]
Terry Gross
Well, I have to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Dwayne Johnson, and he produced and stars on the new film the Smashing Machine. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air. Short Wave thinks of science as an invisible force showing up in your everyday life, powering the food you eat, the medicine you use, the tech in your pocket. Science is approachable because it's already part of your life. Come explore these connections on the shortwave podcast from NPR. On NPR's wild card podcast, actor Matthew McConaughey says it's important not to over commit creatively.
- [31:52]
Dwayne Johnson
What can happen.
- [31:53]
Terry Gross
And where ambition has led me astray is you end up with a bunch.
- [31:55]
Dwayne Johnson
Of fricking campfires and no bonfires.
- [31:58]
Terry Gross
Listen or watch that Wild card conversation on YouTube, the NPR app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Here at Life Kit, we take advice seriously. We bring you evidence based recommendations. And to do that, we talk with researchers and experts on all sorts of topics because we have the same questions you do, like what's really in my shampoo? Or should I let my kid quit soccer? Or what should I do with my savings in uncertain economic times? You can listen to NPR's Life Kit in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. You had a TV series called Young Rock that was based on your life growing up and your extended family. Your father told you in real life and your father in the series tells you that you have to work the gimmick. So there's the gimmick in the ring that he works and the gimmick outside of the ring. What was the gimmick in the ring?
- [32:53]
Dwayne Johnson
Well, the gimmick in the ring is what your Persona is. So a lot of these guys, you know, in the world of pro wrestling, especially back then in the 70s and in the 80s and in the 90s, these wrestlers were so bombastic and the characters were so colorful. And so that would be working the gimmick in the ring. Now, working the gimmick out of the ring, it essentially means you live Your gimmick, you live your Persona. So this is why, you know, what we laugh at is, you know, a lot of the wrestlers, my dad and us being one of them, was, it was so important to live the gimmick. So when you left the arena, or if you left wherever it is, the venue, the flea market, wherever you are wrestling live in the gimmick means you got in a Cadillac or you got in a Lincoln and you drove away in front of the fans, but that was your car. And live in the gimmick means, oh, there's this idea, fantasized idea, that these pro wrestling stars are making a lot of money and they're leaving in their Cadillacs, they're leaving in their Lincolns, and they're going to their mansions and, wow, what a life. But in a lot of cases, and in your case, and in our case, you know, it was like Mickey Rourke and the wrestler, the Darren Aronasky.
- [34:08]
Terry Gross
That's a great film.
- [34:09]
Dwayne Johnson
Yeah, yeah, it's a great film. But it's also a real look at those guys in the 80s who were stars and in the 90s who worked the gimmick, and that's just what they did. And instead of going home to their mansions, we went home to our trailer parks.
- [34:25]
Terry Gross
So from what I've read about your father is like, he worked the gimmick in ways that could be kind of toxic. And we see that in the series, too, that in his attempt to help his son kind of get a boost, he tells these lies that the son has to explain away. But I was reading this that your father wrote a memoir a few years ago, I think it was 2019, and he wrote an intro in your name as if you had actually written it. And it really made you angry. And there were quotes in the book of things that you'd never said. And you actually got the book taken out of the market. Was that a fairly typical thing? Because that's beyond working the gimmick that's betraying your son.
- [35:11]
Dwayne Johnson
That's right. That wasn't working the gimmick. That was something entirely different. And that was my dad being my dad. And that did upset me. And usually I had this relationship with my dad that was complicated. A friend of mine said, you know, that poor word is not enough these days for the relationship that you had with your dad. It's so beyond complicated. But, yeah, that happened with that book. And I knew he was writing a book, which I blessed. I said, great, write your book. And I want you to tell your story. Because also, I know what it's like to delve into something that can be cathartic for you. And I wanted that for my dad. And, you know, my dad had this really incredible career. We had to overcome a lot being a black wrestler coming up in the 60s and the 70s. And he was a real trailblazer in our world of pro wrestling. And I wanted my dad to have that, and I wanted him to tell his story. But I also said to him multiple times, just be real. Just be honest. You don't have to put on a show. You don't have to be presentational. The world of pro wrestling, especially your era, is presentational enough. You don't have to work the gimmick. You just have to be yourself. It's easier said than done. And I understand that, especially to men like that, where so much of their identity is wrapped up in their Persona and why people fell in love with them, or so they think. So the book came out, and I was excited for my dad, and he was going on these book signings, and I said, hey, let me read the book. And I read the book, and I see on the COVID it said forward, written by Dwayne Johnson. I go, God, I don't remember writing a forward, did I? So I read the foreword, and it was fine, and it was pretty standard. And I went, okay. And then I start reading the book. And it was. Once you get in the pages of the book, that's when things become real. And the reality of my dad just being himself and being open and real, that reality evaporated because it was completely different.
- [37:32]
Terry Gross
Do you mean lying? Fictionalizing things?
- [37:35]
Dwayne Johnson
Fictionalizing things and telling these stories that just weren't true because I was there and I lived them. But there was in the book. The thing I think that really got me most was not. I think I know the thing that got me most were there were direct quotes from me that were not true. And basically the quotes were, you know.
- [38:00]
Terry Gross
Me.
- [38:02]
Dwayne Johnson
Giving my dad credit for everything that I'd ever accomplished in my life. I mean, like, literally everything I've ever accomplished. And I was just. I was really just floored by that.
- [38:17]
Terry Gross
Did you talk after that? Did that end the relationship?
- [38:21]
Dwayne Johnson
Well, we weren't talking. And that happened, Terry, around Christmas time. Like, I think a couple of days after Christmas or a couple of days before. I just remember my. Just. It's kind of like that. That was a. That was like a dark mark, that Christmas. But, no, we. We weren't talking. That was the last time we spoke. And then he died. And he died about two weeks later. And he just he wasn't sick. He wasn't bedridden. He just died. And that became something that I had to and continue to work through.
- [39:05]
Terry Gross
Right. Thinking that the emotional trauma, the fight that the two of you had led him to die, who you're worried about?
- [39:14]
Dwayne Johnson
Well, it's hard to say. I thought about that a lot of times. I think, did he die of a broken heart? And the big takeaway of I try not to regret things in life, I really do, because you can't and they're gone. But the thing I think about is it's the reminder of you can be upset and this happens with parents and loved ones and you can get pissed and they do things or you do things that you regret and they regret. And then, you know, you have it out. And you can rumble and you can have these conversations and they're heated and they're tough and they're hard and there's tears. But in the end, the lesson for me here is but stay tight. Don't not talk for weeks because you just never know what's around the corner.
- [40:05]
Terry Gross
My guest is Dwayne Johnson, and he produced and stars on the new film the Smashing Machine. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.
- [40:12]
Dwayne Johnson
These days with all the information coming at you, it can be hard to know what's accurate, what's not and what's worth your time. Here to help you navigate It all is 1A five days a week, the 1A podcast provides a forum for curious minds to explore different angles on the biggest headlines and give you a more balanced take on what's happening. Listen to the one a podcast from NPR and WAMU. Every year in the US about 1000 people die in jail, many of them awaiting trial.
- [40:42]
Terry Gross
This isn't a problem that someone else.
- [40:44]
Dwayne Johnson
Has to deal with.
- [40:45]
Terry Gross
We all are at risk of are dying in jails.
- [40:49]
Dwayne Johnson
In a special series, we'll look at.
- [40:50]
Terry Gross
Why people are dying in jail and.
- [40:52]
Dwayne Johnson
How to prevent it from happening on here and now. Anytime. A podcast from NPR and wbur. You care about what's happening in the world, stay informed with NPR's State of the World podcast. In just a few minutes, we take you to stories around the globe. You might hear the latest developments in world conflicts or about what global events mean. For the price of your coffee, listen to the State of the World podcast from npr.
- [41:22]
Terry Gross
You were in the ring together with your father.
- [41:25]
Dwayne Johnson
Yeah.
- [41:26]
Terry Gross
There's a lot of highlights of your fights on YouTube, and one of them, you're just fighting alone and I'm trying to remember who your opponent is. But anyways, he's got you down, and you look like you're in pain, and. And then your father kind of rushes into the ring. He's wearing, like, a sports jacket, and he rips off the sports jacket, and he kind of rescues you. And then, like, the Sultan comes in with a flag on a pole, and he takes the pole and he starts beating your father on the back. And every time the pole connects to your father's back, the Sultan, like, stomps his foot to make it sound as if the pole is making that kind of noise, smashing against your father's back. And it's kind of funny. That must have been a fun experience for you.
- [42:15]
Dwayne Johnson
It was awesome. That was what you're referring to. That was WrestleMania. And that was my very first WrestleMania match, WrestleMania 13 in Chicago. That was when I was a good guy, the babyface, the rookie. And I was intercontinental champion for WWE at that time. And the bad guys were beating me up. And then my dad comes in and he helps make the save. And we. In wrestling parlance, it's called cleaning house. So the baby faces, the good guys, start cleaning house, meaning, you know, they're. They're just beating up the bad guys and throwing them out of the ring. And ultimately the good guys, the baby faces, are left standing in the ring. And that, like, a nice father and son moment, that was. It was really cool. I wasn't at that time, again, I was kind of struggling with that because I felt like, wait, I still want to try and create my own path. And I remember thinking, if my dad comes out and he's involved, it's not aligned with what I want to do and trying to make my own path here. But I still. I said, okay, let's do it. And we did it. And it was a nice moment, but, you know, I realized what actually it meant for him, which that was a highlight for him. And he has said that that was the highlight of his entire career, which meant a lot to me, because my dad, he did trailblaze, and he and his tag team partner, Tony Atlas, they became the first black tag team champions of wwe. And even in the world of wwe, that's fictionalized and rehearsed, and you know who's gonna win and you know who's gonna lose. And when somebody becomes champion, the decision is made from an office that this man or this woman is going to become champion. But why this was so significant in terms of, I think, culture and black culture and them becoming the first Black tag team champions is because it signified that they really were trailblazing at that time. And in the early 80s, there was still a lot of racism that was present. And especially in these small arenas, in these small towns around, you know, around the country, where the audience was predominantly white, they cheered these guys. And that's why Vince, at that time. Vince McMahon.
- [44:35]
Terry Gross
Vince McMahon, yeah.
- [44:36]
Dwayne Johnson
Yeah. He's like, you know what you guys need to become champions, because you guys are changing the behavior of people. And that's what one of the qualities of trailblazing is, when you. When you're able to change the behavior of somebody, and. And that's what they did. So the reason why I share that was because that, to me, that was my dad's greatest accomplishment, which was him becoming first Black tag team champions. But my dad always referenced that moment when he and I were in the ring together at WrestleMania as his greatest achievement. So I'm glad it happened for him. Cause even despite our complicated relationship, I think it's just the love of a son that you'll always be. Just that you'll be the son of your dad. And you always want to make your dad happy, you know, despite all the stuff you go through.
- [45:25]
Terry Gross
Complicated guy, complicated relationship. So before we run out of time, I'm gonna transition from fighting to singing. I like your voice. I've only heard you sing twice. I heard the Eric Clapton song that you sang and played in the ring to Vicki Guerrero. And then, of course, in Moana. You sing in that, too. Did you think of yourself ever as a singer before, like singing on film for the animated film?
- [45:59]
Dwayne Johnson
I grew up singing, and in our. In our family, I'm half black and half Samoan. And in my culture, especially on the Polynesian side, singing and dancing was ever present in our household with my dad as well. And so we grew up that way. And my mom, who will listen to this and is going to love this entire interview, she still carries a ukulele with her everywhere she goes. Terry. Everywhere. Everywhere she goes, she's known, oh, here comes the ukulele lady. And then she'll remind everybody, no, I'm the rock's mom, and she'll sing. So we grew up singing, and I grew up singing Sam Cooke and Elvis and Hawaiian artists and Hawaiian songs and Polynesian songs. And in our household, it was like, we'd sing Don Ho. Tiny Bubble. Tiny Bubble, right? You hear him sing and, like, kind of crooning his way through our household.
- [47:03]
Terry Gross
So if this was the 1960s, you would be recording an album Clint Eastwood recorded an album. George Maharis recorded an album. I mean, lots of, like, TV and movie stars, whether they could sing or not, recorded albums. Are you gonna record an album? I'm not making you an offer. It's not my place to do that.
- [47:21]
Dwayne Johnson
If we were in the 60s, right now, that means Sam Cooke would be alive. And me and Sam Cooke, it would be like, oh, you're the apple of my eye, my cherry pie, my Coke and ice cream. All right, that's all I got.
- [47:39]
Terry Gross
Thank you for that. It's been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. Congratulations on the new movie. I think it really takes your acting career to a new level.
- [47:48]
Dwayne Johnson
Really appreciate it. It was really good talking to you.
- [47:51]
Terry Gross
Dwayne Johnson stars in the new movie the Smashing Machine, based on the life of former MMA champion Mark Kerr. Here's Johnson singing the Lin Manuel Miranda song. You're welcome. From the Disney animated film Moana.
- [48:07]
Dwayne Johnson
Okay, okay. I see what's happening. Yeah. You're face to face with greatness, and it's strange. You don't even know how you feel. It's adorable. Well, it's nice to see that humans never change. Open your eyes. Let's begin. Yes, it's really me. It's Maui. Breathe it in. I know it's a lot. The hair. When you're staring at a demigod, what can I say? Except you're welcome for the tides, the sun, the sky. Hey, it's okay. It's okay to welcome. I'm just an ordinary Demi guy. Hey.
- [48:50]
Terry Gross
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shurrock, Anne Marie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Sivi Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Susan Yakundi directed today's show. Her co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
- [49:21]
Dwayne Johnson
You're welcome. On the next through line from npr.
- [49:28]
Terry Gross
People have real ethical and moral quandaries about this. People are uncomfortable from the very beginning.
- [49:37]
Dwayne Johnson
The business of migrant detention.
- [49:40]
Terry Gross
Listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [49:49]
Dwayne Johnson
Did y' all hear? Code Switch is one of time magazine's top 100 podcasts of all time, baby.
- [49:55]
Terry Gross
Mm.
- [49:56]
Dwayne Johnson
They called our show, quote, a kind of cultural compass. Never preachy, always curious about the roots of inequality in people's lived experiences.
- [50:06]
Terry Gross
Mm.
- [50:06]
Dwayne Johnson
I mean, I'm biased, but we couldn't have put it better ourselves. And we're digging into all this every week, so make sure you catch the next episode of Code Switch on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast.