Ebon Moss-Bachrach on ‘The Bear’

Summary

---

Fresh Air: Eben Moss-Bachrach on ‘The Bear’

Date: July 17, 2026
Podcast: Fresh Air (NPR)
Host/Interviewer: Anne Marie Baldonado
Episode Focus: An in-depth conversation with actor Eben Moss-Bachrach about his acclaimed role as Richie on FX’s “The Bear,” his approach to character, his other roles, and upcoming projects.

---

Episode Overview

This episode celebrates "The Bear," FX’s Emmy-laden culinary dramedy, as it approaches its final season. The main feature is a revisited 2025 interview with Eben Moss-Bachrach, who plays the explosive, loyal, and complicated Richie. The conversation delves deep into Moss-Bachrach’s process, the character’s evolution, and his broader acting career, including his Marvel debut and work in theater.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legacy and Impact of “The Bear”

Host David Bianculli’s Introduction

• “The Bear” has won 21 Emmys, with its fifth and final season currently airing.
• The series is praised for its intensity, character depth, and realism in portraying the high-pressure restaurant world.
• Notable for its flashback episodes ("Christmas Dinner") and ensemble of guest stars.

“To me, watching The Bear is as tense as watching The Pit...” — David Bianculli (02:36)

2. Richie's Journey: From Volatile Outsider to the Heart of the Show

Establishing Richie's Character

• Early Richie is lost, defensive, and feels outpaced by a changing world after the death of his best friend.
  • “I knew that this was a man who was suffering, who was finding himself in a world that he didn’t really recognize anymore, who felt under threat, back against the wall...” — Eben Moss-Bachrach (09:48)
• Moss-Bachrach relates personally to Richie’s sense of place and loyalty as neighborhoods change.

The Ensemble’s Dynamic & Intensity

• Despite the show’s nerve-shredding style, the set is calm, collaborative, and “requires a lot of sensitivity and listening.” (11:02)
• Achieved through extensive rehearsal and teamwork.

On Filming High-Octane Scenes

• “It’s a very loving, fun, calm, well run set.” — Eben Moss-Bachrach (11:32)
• The frantic energy onscreen doesn’t reflect the off-screen process.

3. Richie's Emotional Depth: Relationships and Redemption

The Evolution of Audience Affection

• Early impressions of Richie are negative, but viewers grow to root for him.
  • “I feel that in many ways, he’s the heart of the show, which is a testament to the writing and to your performance.” — Anne Marie Baldonado (09:20)

The Pain of Divorce

• Through flashbacks, we see Richie's love for his ex-wife and daughter, and the heartbreak as that life fades.
  • Scene highlight: Ex-wife tells Richie of her engagement to someone else.
  • “Gillian Jacobs. Such a great actress. I love working with her. Unfortunately, most of our scenes are phone calls because they don’t have much of a relationship anymore.” — Eben Moss-Bachrach (17:23)
• Tenderness remains between them, especially as co-parents.

Richie as a Father

• Brings loyalty, intensity, and his best self to fatherhood, cherishing time with his daughter.
  • “He’s really into her world and where he doesn’t listen as well on the outside, with her, his time with her is so limited that it’s so valuable.” (18:31)

Iconic Moment: Taylor Swift Singalong

• Driving home from a transformative night at a Michelin-star restaurant, Richie belts out "Love Story."
  • “It’s so nice to spend just a few minutes, like, singing something loudly and celebrating and having exuberance.” — Eben Moss-Bachrach (19:48)

4. Crafting “The Bear”: Scripted Chaos, Not Improv

On the Show’s Rapid-Fire Dialogue

• Scenes that look improvised are meticulously scripted.
  • “[That] scene was as written... I don’t really have that kind of vernacular at my disposal.” (14:29)

5. Career Retrospective: Films, TV, Marvel, & Stage

Early Career: Royal Tenenbaums

• Small role as a bellhop; recalls Wes Anderson’s attention to detail and his “exploding” hair. (23:17)

Breakout: Desi on “Girls”

• Initially a guest star, Moss-Bachrach describes Desi as “a little bit of a con man... really well put together on the outside, but a lot of crisis and chaos going on internally.” (24:47)
• On not watching the show while shooting: “I didn’t want it to make me self conscious.” (28:06)

Marvel Universe: Ben Grimm / The Thing in “Fantastic Four: First Steps”

• Transition to motion capture acting: “I wear these groovy looking pajama kind of tights and top. And then I have wires strapped to various points of my body…” (30:28)
• Set builds are astounding; describes Ben Grimm’s transformation — “He has this new rock kind of dermis, so he looks like a monster, and he doesn’t change back and forth like the Hulk...” (32:21)
• Challenge: Expressing humanity through animation and learning to ‘move’ like a rock-solid character. (34:01–35:30)

Stage Work: “Dog Day Afternoon” with Jon Bernthal

• Will play Sal in a new Broadway adaptation.
• On casting Bernthal as Michael in “The Bear”: “I don’t think we should ever see him... but John is such a larger than life, magnetic, charismatic person.” (36:29–38:21)
• Reveres John Cazale as an actor’s actor and inspiration. (38:51)

6. Reflections on Craft & Collaboration

• Emphasizes the joy of rehearsal and the energy of a live, collaborative creative process.
  • “I like nothing more than working on new American plays. It’s kind of my favorite thing to do…” (39:59)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Richie’s Arc:

  “You know, many of the things that are challenging for him and making it difficult for him to navigate his way through the world, like loyalty, honesty… I wanted to see the kind of converse of some of these things in his relationship with his daughter.” — Eben Moss-Bachrach (18:31)

• On Set Dynamics:

  “To make something that alive feeling… it really requires a lot of sensitivity and listening. I think the people involved in making The Bear listen a lot more than Richie, Sidney, and Carmi.” — Eben Moss-Bachrach (11:02)

• On The Thing’s Psyche:

  “That’s really key to his psyche, I think.” — Eben Moss-Bachrach on the character’s unchanging, rocky exterior (33:31)

• On Crafting “The Bear’s” Chaos:

  “It’s just textbook sublimation. You’ve seen it once, you’ve seen it a thousand times.” — Richie (Eben Moss-Bachrach), in-character, poking fun at the recurring nature of their messy conflicts (14:04)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:14] – Overview of “The Bear” and Emmy wins (Bianculli)
• [03:41] – Iconic Christmas dinner flashback scene (cast ensemble highlight)
• [09:48] – Moss-Bachrach on Richie’s original outlook and his connection to the character
• [11:02] – Insight into the show’s tone and filming process
• [15:28] – Discussion of Richie’s marriage and key phone call scene with ex-wife
• [19:48] – “Taylor Swift Singalong” and the triumphant driving scene
• [22:57] – Early film experience on “The Royal Tenenbaums”
• [24:47] – Reflection on playing Desi in “Girls”
• [30:28] – Embracing motion capture for “Fantastic Four”
• [36:28] – On casting Jon Bernthal in “The Bear” and Broadway plans
• [38:51] – John Cazale as artistic inspiration

---

Tone & Style

Throughout the episode, Moss-Bachrach is thoughtful, self-effacing, and often funny—open about his anxieties and creative process, and deeply appreciative of his collaborators. The conversation is brisk yet warm, balancing comic moments with poignant reflections, much like the best episodes of “The Bear” itself.

---

For new listeners or diehard fans, this episode offers a rich feast: an actor’s candid perspective on character, collaboration, and the bittersweet triumph of saying goodbye to a modern TV classic.

Transcript

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

This message comes from Capella University. That spark you feel, that's your drive. For more Capella University's Flexpath learning format

[Capella University Announcer]

lets you earn your degree at your

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

pace without putting life on pause. Learn more at capella. Edu.

[David Biancolli]

This is FRESH air. I'm TV critic David Biancooli. The Bear, the FX series about people running a Chicago restaurant, has won 21 Emmy Awards so far and is nominated for eight more for its fourth season, including for guest actress Jamie Lee Curtis and guest actor Rob Reiner. The show's fifth and final season currently is running weekly on FX and streaming in its entirety on Hulu. And the Bear is ending with a bang, not a whimper. Today on FRESH air, we'll listen back to an interview from last year with Eben Moss Bachrach, who's already won two Emmys for the role of Richie, the family friend who now co runs the restaurant known as the Bear. And I'll start with an appreciation and overview of the TV series because the Bear has been a delectable treat from start to finish. Christopher Storer created and unveiled the bear in 2022, telling the story of a talented chef, Carmen Berzotto, who left home to train at a Michelin starred restaurant. He returns to Chicago after the suicide of his brother Mikey, who had run a small sandwich shop. Carm, played by Jeremy Allen White from Showtime, shameless, decides to help his family by taking charge of the family business and eventually transforming it into a high end restaurant. His family includes his sister Sugar, played by Abby Elliott, and their unstable mom, played by Jamie Lee Curtis. There's also a large unofficial extended family, childhood friends and loved ones who call themselves cousins or uncles. In its first season, the Bear hit TV with intoxicating originality. Its characters were compelling and the cast was talented. White's portrayal of Carm was a study in both commitment and torment. Sidney, the new employee played by IO Adebiri, rose quickly through the ranks due to her obvious vision and talent. But she, like the other chefs and staff members, had as much baggage as inspiration. The Bear started out as part soap opera and part celebration of fine food. Each episode presented montages of the preparation and presentation of various dishes while examining the effort and emotional toll of doing that day after day. The Bear billed itself and still does as a comedy and has won all its Emmys in that category. But to me, watching the Bear is as tense as watching the pit, and that's not a casually chosen reference. By season two, the Bear was like a hot new restaurant with rave reviews. Everyone wanted to visit and in terms of guest stars, almost everybody did. A brilliant program from that season was a flashback episode showing Christmas dinner with the extended family. And look who showed up on the guest list. John Bernthal from the Walking Dead as Mikey. Their older brother was there, even though in this show's narrative, he would die by suicide soon after. Also at the dinner table, Oliver Platt as Uncle Jimmy, Bob Odenkirk as Uncle Lee, Sarah Paulson as cousin Michelle, and John Mulaney as family friend Stevie. At dinner, Uncle Lee is goading Mikey for repeating old stories. Mikey responds by throwing a dinner fork at him. And it only gets more tense from there.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Cut it out, Rich. Hey, look, here's the thing. You see, I can throw forks. Cause this is our father's house. Mike.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

Rich.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

My father's house. We have left off.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

Okay, you got everyone's attention. So go ahead, tell us a story we've all heard a million times already.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

That's good, Lee.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

Yeah, tell a story about how you're living with your mom and you're borrowing money off of her and any other sucker who will listen to your bull.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Lee, shut the.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

You're one of the suckers. Jimmy. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've told him. I told him no. Got to listen to you. I told him not to help. I told him to tell you to go scratch.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Thanks a whole lot, buddy. You come back next year, okay? It's fine.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

It's fine. Because this guy's nothing and he's nobody. And I know you're scared and you're afraid, aren't you, Michael? And Michael, I don't know what the. You're on, but whatever it is, if you can hear me through the fog, throw another fork at me. You're gonna get rocked.

[David Biancolli]

Subsequent seasons of the Bear have charted the restaurant's rise and fall, and through additional flashback episodes, given us deep dives into the pasts of various characters. Last season ended with the restaurant facing closure, but this new final season is all about staying afloat for one more day. Most of the eight episode final season rolls out in a single day. Just like the Pit. On a day when supplies are down to almost nothing, there's a massive storm hitting Chicago, and there's a glitch in the reservation system that has them facing way more diners than they can handle. The Bear books each evening's tables to account for a number of turns. The total times each table can be cleared for a new service in a given evening. The staff is expecting lots of cancellations because of the horrible Weather. But Eben Moss backrack as Richie delivers the latest news to the rest of the staff with, as always, plenty of expletives.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

All right, team meeting.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Yo, how we looking?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

So let me preface this, that we all knew that today was gonna be a hard day when we came in here, right?

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

But this.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

We have at least a turn.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Can you please say that we have

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

at least one turn?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

We have at least one turn.

[Gillian Jacobs (Ex-wife)]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

What does that mean? Well, we have some reservations. 7:30. Oh, yes, of course.

[Justin Chang]

You're.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

7:30.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

All right. So what is it usual, like a turn and a half? A turn and a quarter because of the rain.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

That's some. And some more.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

How many more?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

What? Just. We have another turn and a half.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Excuse me.

[Capella University Announcer]

We're at three.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Three.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

Three turns. Three turns.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Three flutes.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Three turns.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

No.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

Yes.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

We are gonna maximize.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

No, no, no, no.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

We are gonna get destroyed.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

What's up?

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Oh, we're at three turns.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

Yeah. What?

[Gillian Jacobs (Ex-wife)]

That's impossible. Check it.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Why is everybody standing around?

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Capella University Announcer]

Richie.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

We're at three turns.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah. Why is everybody freaking out? We're at three turns. Yo, cousin, you probably did three turns all the time.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Yeah. At the best restaurant in the world with 100 employees, a lot of money, and 13 Lucas.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

So we have none of that.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

But to be positive. Shocker. This is incredible.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yes.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

We need the money.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

Yes.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Correct.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

We won't get the money if we can't handle this.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

We do not have enough food for three full turns.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Yeah.

[Capella University Announcer]

Correct.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

No, Kay, I understand that this is a lot of people. I get that. But we're gonna circle our wagons and we're gonna turn this into a champagne problem.

[David Biancolli]

At the end of this season, the bear is shutting its doors. It does so with a beautiful final episode, one that is both emotional and satisfying and which serves all its characters well. But I can't help feeling a little sad, and not just because Abby Elliott, who broke out as a cast member of Saturday Night Live, was so quietly moving in her dramatic scenes this final season that she brought me to tears. And now I'm sad to have to say goodbye to the bear. But if you haven't visited it, you should and still can. All five seasons are available on Hulu. Now let's listen to the interview Fresh Air's Ann Marie Baldonado did last year with Eben Moss Bachrach, who plays Richie on the bear. They began with a scene from the first episode of the series. Richie is dealing with the recent death of his best friend and business partner, Michael. And the return of Michael's younger brother Carmi, who has plans to transform the neighborhood sandwich shop Richie used to run with Michael. Here's Eben Moss Backrack as Richie, with Jeremy Allen White as Carmi and IO Adebury as Sidney.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Hold on. Listen, let's just have a conversation for a second.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

Whoa.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Is this.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

This is Sydney I'm staging today.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

You're what today?

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

She's helping us out today.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Cousin, you order a different mayonnaise, bro.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

It's bananas.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

No, all you, chef.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, all you, chef. This biff was using them to make a giant knuckle.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

It was a play on a panettonia. It would have been beautiful if you let me finish the play.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

Richie J.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Pleasure to meet you, sweetheart.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Don't say sweetheart.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

You very calm. You're so woke. I made nothing by it. Sydney St. Sweetheart's just part of our Italian heritage. Okay, Listen, I'm trying to talk to you, okay? Don't be rude and start doing a million things like, oh, smart, I don't have time to take care of your mom for six. I got all kinds of receipts from my divorce lawyer backing up because all the time I'm spent trying to put your family back together because you're too much of a To come home. The guys are texting me. You're telling them to do all sorts of weird backwards. Don't do that, Carmen. Don't go messing with our heads and ordering different mayonnaise and hiring new bras without talking to me first. This is your brother's house, okay? Yeah.

[Carvana Announcer]

Remember?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I was running it fine without you.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Why didn't he leave it to you then?

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Eben Moss Bachrach, welcome to Fresh Air.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Thanks. Thank you.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I know that you're very protective of the characters that you play, so I want you know, I mean this in the best possible way. I think that Richie is the character I've done the most dramatic 180 on, maybe ever. We just heard Richie from the beginning of the series, but as the show goes on, I know I'm not alone when I say that we're rooting for Richie. I feel that in many ways, he's the heart of the show, which is a testament to the writing and to your performance. What did you know early on about the journey that Richie was gonna take?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I knew that this was a man who was suffering, who was finding himself in a world that he didn't really recognize anymore, who felt under threat, back against the wall, kind of, you know, trying to grab anything that was. Could keep him afloat and somebody in that position. I think that kind of a part can hold a lot of volatile, dangerous, spontaneous behavior. Sort of like a lot can be justified by somebody who's fighting for their survival. And then as somebody who's like, at a certain point in my life, you know, I also related to this guy just seeing, you know, so many things that I loved in my neighborhood, in my city, changing and seeing things, everything becoming a bank, you know, I really related to him in that way.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I will say that the Bear can be a pretty stressful watch. You know, there's yelling often, adrenaline always, and there's, you know, this anxiety that pulses throughout a lot of the time. What is it like to film? Does it feel that pitched as you're doing it? Does it feel that, like, high octane?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

It's funny for me to think about, like, a set that would be, like, how the scenes are, like, they call cut, and then everyone's screaming at each other and putting out the cigarettes that were in the scene and then lighting up cigarettes that they're gonna smoke in between takes. No, I mean, to make something that alive feeling, in a way, I think, you know, it takes an enormous amount of rehearsal between the actors, between the actors in the camera department and the props department. Like, we have such a deep and wonderful crew that, you know, it really requires a lot of sensitivity and listening. I think the people involved in making the Bear listen a lot more than Richie, Sidney, and Carmi. So it's a very loving, fun, calm, well run set.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I want to play a scene from season three of the show. The restaurant is getting off the ground, but both Richie and Carmi are still battling. They've just had a huge fight on the first day of service for friends and family, and they really yelled hateful things at each other. The character Richie even calls Carmi Dee Dee, which is Carmi's mom's name. And calling that may be one of the biggest insults Richie could give because, you know, that mom is pretty, you know, troubled. Anyway, they're trying to get back on track and have the restaurant be successful, but they have different ideas about how to do that. So here's the scene.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Hey, Chef Sid, have you seen my iron? Also, when you have a sec, would you ask Chef Carmen what the to do with my tables out front?

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Chef Sid, would you please tell Richard that I thought I would set him up for success and arrange his tables in a more efficient pattern.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Is that what you do?

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Yes, that's what I did. It was really funny. I. I walked In. And it was so strange. It looked like the person who had done it previously had never left the city of Chicago.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

We can leave the city of Chicago. Out of it.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Zero flow, no efficiency. So I thought I'd give you a

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

hand, Chef Sid, would you tell Chef Carmen that I can give him a hand if he wants?

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

He wants to give me a hand. He can give me a hand.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I just might suggest that the both of you stop.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Cause I don't like this at all.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Sid, it's fine. Chef Carmen uses power phrases. Cause he's a baby replicant who's not self actualized. Which is maybe why he repeatedly referred to me as a loser.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Richie, I apologize.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

No, no, no. It's all good. I don't need your apology. I know how you feel now. Also, I respect your honesty and bravery from inside a locked vault.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

You know what? Matter of fact, Chef Sydney, I don't remember Richard apologizing for all the. He was literally screaming at me while I was in the fight.

[John Berthal]

I love you.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

No.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

What?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

You know what? Out there, that's my dojo. Gets rearranged without my approval or consent. It creates an environment of fear, and fear does not exist in that dojo.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Richard, I added more. Two tops. Cause all those four tops were nonsense. Okay?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

All the four tops in the fours.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

I lose the flowers because that was

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

a lot of flies.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Those flowers are apologizing and you're screaming.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Am I?

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Yeah.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Yeah, you are.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Oh, yeah, that's. Is it rich? Richard, you want to get the.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

Out of my face?

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Carmen, shut up, please.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Sorry, Sid. It's just textbook sublimation. You've seen it once, you've seen it a thousand times.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I actually don't know what to do right now. That's a scene from season three of the Bear with IO Debris. Jeremy Allen White and Eben Moss back rack. When a scene is like that, with that much screaming, is it written that way or are you sort of improvising how you approach the arguing?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

That scene, to quote Walter in The Big Lebowski 8 year olds, dude,

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

that

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

scene was as written. I mean, you know, at this point in Richie's life, you know, he's trying to do some work, he's reading some self help books. And you know, I don't really have that kind of vernacular at my disposal. Like, you know, all the self actualization. And I'm sure there were some changes in words from take to take, but yeah, I wouldn't call it like improvising.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

One thing that's heartbreaking about Richie is how he mourns the end of his marriage. And because of flashbacks, we know that it seems like on the timeline, as recently as five years ago, Richie and his wife were together. They were about to have a baby, and they were very much together. But by the time we meet Richie five years later, his marriage and his ex wife is with someone else. And I want to play a scene from that episode.

[Gillian Jacobs (Ex-wife)]

Forks.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Richie is working at the Michelin Star restaurant for that week. He's taking a break and gets a phone call from his ex wife, played by Gillian Jacobs.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Hey.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Hey. How are you?

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

I'm.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I'm great.

[Gillian Jacobs (Ex-wife)]

I'm great.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

You know?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

What's going on? Is Eva okay?

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

No, she's great. She's totally great. Yeah.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Oh, yo, Jimmy. I got those Taylor Swift ticks.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

You did?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

She's gonna be so excited.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I know, right?

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

It's incredible.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I got three if you wanna come. You know, you don't have to.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

No, no, no. It's Iowa. That's so sweet. That's so sweet. I. I just. I know you're really busy, so I wanted to just tell you something, and it's a little bit hard to say.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Okay. Are you all right?

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

I'm fine. Yeah, I'm fine. I just want you to hear it from me. It's. What? Frank proposed to me.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

What'd you say?

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

I said yes. He's, like, a really good guy.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

That's great, Tiff.

[Capella University Announcer]

Thank you.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

I. And I want you to know that nothing's gonna change between us.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

That's awesome.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

You know, um.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

And I love you.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

That's a scene from season two of the Bear. Will we learn more about what happened to their marriage in that relatively short period of time?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, that scene. Bear, a comedy.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

Yeah.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

That seems brutal.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Gillian Jacobs. Such a. Such a great actress. I love working with her. Unfortunately, most of our scenes are phone calls because they don't have much of a relationship anymore. Actually, I do think there's a lot of tenderness there. And she genuinely loves them. Do we learn more about what happened with them? We spend more time with them together as parents, as exes. In terms of, like, a literal sense of, like a flashback of the two of them. That's not something that we've shot.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I think one thing that makes viewers love Richie is the way that he is with his daughter. Even though he's divorced, he's so devoted to. To her and doing the right thing by her and trying to be a good dad. Besides having what seems like a tough upbringing where he sort of, you know, so much so that he becomes part of the family that owned the restaurant. You have two daughters. And I think that being a parent of girls can be very a very specific parenting experience. What did you want to make sure that you brought to Richie as a father?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I mean, some of the things that are challenging for him and making it difficult for him to navigate his way through the world, like loyalty, honesty, in a way, you know, these things, I think are sometimes hindrances and sometimes, you know, they're really great qualities. And I wanted I wanted to see the kind of converse of some of these things in his relationship with his daughter. Obviously, he's a dad that would do anything for his daughter, like so many parents, like most parents, I would say. And then he's really into her world and where he doesn't listen as well on the outside with her. His time with her is so limited that it's so valuable. And I think each minute is something that he really invests himself and tries to be present in a way that he's not when he's at the restaurant.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

There's a scene later in that episode where Richie has completely won everyone over at the fancy restaurant. He's really getting it and getting the value of his work. And he's driving home singing along to the Taylor Swift song Love Story. And it's this great triumphant moment for Richie. How did that moment come about? It's just such a great moment.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I it's so nice to spend just a few minutes like singing something loudly and celebrating and having exuberance and driving and singing along with a song that you love loudly. I mean, that's such a visceral, great kind of release. So, yeah, I really enjoyed that evening. I love those speed bumps. I love the squeaks, the squeak of the suspension in the car.

[David Biancolli]

Evan moss bachrach speaking to fresh air's anne marie baldonado. Last year, the bear, in which he co stars as richie, is presenting as its final season on fx. And hulu. And justin chang reviews one of the most eagerly awaited films of the year, christopher nolan's the odyssey. I'm david biancooli, and this is fresh air.

[Carvana Announcer]

Support for this NPR podcast. And the following message come from Carvana. Selling your car. Carvana has offers so good they're almost inexplicable. Sell your car 100% online in minutes. Visit Carvana.com today.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

This week on the NPR Politics podcast,

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

President Trump, it is the greatest threat

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

to our country, is trying to tie Democrats to communism, including World War II

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

or even 9, 11.

[David Biancolli]

Both he and his team feel this is resonating with his base.

[IO Adebiri (Sidney)]

Why the White House is pushing communism as a new line of attack ahead of this year's midterms. Listen now on the NPR Politics podcast.

[Capella University Announcer]

From the light bulb to the Internet, human history has been driven by innovation, and Shortwave is exploring how the technology of tomorrow will transform our future. Would you ride in a flying taxi? Will AI models fight wars? Hear about the technological frontier? Every Monday on TechCamp, the new series from Shortwave. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Biancolli]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Biancooli. Let's get back to our 2025 interview with actor Eben Moss Bachrach, who co stars as Richie on the acclaimed FX series the Bear. It's now streaming its fifth and final season on Hulu Moss. Backrack won two Emmys for the role. He also starred as Desi in the TV series Girls and stars as Ben Grimm, AKA the thing in the Marvel film the Fantastic Four. First Steps Just this month, the stage production of Dog Day Afternoon completed its run on Broadway, with Moss Bachrach in a starring role. He spoke to FRESH AIR's Anne Marie Baldonado.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

One of the first film roles you had was in the Wes Anderson film the Royal Tenenbaums. You played a bellboy at the hotel where Royal Tenenbaum, played by Gene Hackman, where he lives. Here's a little bit of that scene or all of that scene.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, for sure. There's a call for you, Mr. Tenenbaum. Who is it, Frederick? A Mr. Pagoda.

[Gillian Jacobs (Ex-wife)]

That's you.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

And the Royal Tenbaum's. What was it like being in this film? Was it one of the first times you were on a set? And if that's true, what do you remember about it?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I rewatched that movie the other day with one of my kids and God, it's such a good movie.

[Capella University Announcer]

Yes.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I'm so happy to be part of it, even in this tiny, tiny little way. And I think finally enough time has gone by where I was like, you know what? I'm pretty good as Frederick the bellhop. I'm okay. I'm okay. It was the second time I was on a set, probably my first time in such a fancy hotel. I remember mostly Wes Anderson's attention to detail, him coming down like a tailor and sort of adjusting the hem of my pants, fixing my hair, adjusting my little pillbox hat. I mean, I got that part because I had quite a good head of hair.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Yeah. At the time you had kind of Curly hair that comes out of the pillbox sort of at the bottom.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, exactly. It kind of explodes. It's like an upside down volcano or something.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Well, one of your breakout roles was in the TV show. You started out as a guest star who was only gonna be in a few episodes, but then became a series regular. When viewers meet you, you're auditioning for a Broadway play, and you meet the character Adam, who's played by Adam Driver, who's also auditioning and just starting out. And by the way, Desi is a successful actor. You know, he auditioned for a Broadway play and he got the role. How did you see Desi?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I saw him as a little bit of a con man.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

Hmm.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Really well put together on the outside, but a lot of crisis and chaos going on internally. A bit of a searcher. I feel like he was not committed necessarily to acting. He was a musician. I'm sure he painted and a lot of maybe, like, clothing, if I'm being, like, really not charitable. Like maybe pre distressed.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Jeans.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Yeah. A lot of pre distressed denim.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah. But also, you know, somebody that felt very deeply loved. Deeply. A baby.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Yeah, a little bit. I wanna play a scene from Girls here. Desi is a regular cast member and is now with the character Marnie. They started out as a musical duo with some success. Eventually, Marnie and Desi get married, but they're also this musical duo too. In this scene, they're arguing about what music to use in their upcoming showcase for a record label, which is important to their future career as musicians. Here's the scene.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

You know what? We should open our showcase with this song.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

We only get two songs for the showcase?

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Yes. We get an opener. Closer. And this should be our opener. Yeah.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I mean, this is a great song.

[Capella University Announcer]

Thank you.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

But this is now one of our top two.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

What do you like better?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Rattlesnake, Cowgirl, Heart for sale.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Whoa.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

Wow.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Wonderful song from Marcus Garvey. Oaxaca Blues, Kokopelli Shelley. I mean, that's top six right there.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Yeah, I know. I just feel like it's our chance to show some range.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Okay, so see what I think about the showcase. We put our best foot forward.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Agreed.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

And if half of our set is a syrupy love song, that's a total mislead babe, you know?

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

But we sing love songs.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Not really. We sing, like, modern American folk with an indie edge.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

I tell people that we're like she and him, but with actual romance.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

But we're nothing like she and him.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

We're not. Whoa, you're blowing my mind.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Right now, Marnie, we are.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

I hope we're like she and him. My God, we are nothing.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Are you kidding me right now? You're freaking me out. We are nothing like she and him, okay? We are nothing like that band. How can we have completely different takes on the same band that we are both in? That is bizarre to me.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

I'm starting to wonder if maybe you don't like Close up because I wrote it instead of you.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

No, I like this song.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Are you sure?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I loved this song.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Okay. What do you mean, loved this song?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

And then you told me that you were writing she and him songs, and now like my whole, I gotta do a heavy rethink here.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

How about we talk about the partnership that I thought we were in recently? No, recently it's just been me writing while you tinker with your motorcycle.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I'm. That's my, that's my mode of transportation, Marnie. That's my mode of transportation.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

That doesn't change anything.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

That's how I get. That's weak, dude. That's my mode of transportation.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

That's a scene from Girls. Did you watch Girls at the time when it was airing?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I didn't, no. I watched a little bit of it the first season, but I also was, I was like, so jealous that I was. I really wanted to be a part of it, and so it was complicated for me to watch it.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

It was filming right there. It was filming like right by you.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, exactly. Let's walk by. And then once I was working on it, I wouldn't watch it much just because I didn't want it to sort of affect the way I was gonna continue to work on it, you know, I didn't want it to make me self conscious.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

What do you think of that scene?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Oh, my God, that scene. That, that list of songs is really, really funny.

[David Biancolli]

Evan Moss Backrack spoke to FRESH AIR's Anne Marie Baldonado in 2025. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

[Carvana Announcer]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Carvana. Carvana believes selling your car should be easy. Get a real offer down to the penny picked up from your driveway. You may keep waiting for a catch. There isn't one. Sell [e-mail] Pickup fees may apply.

[Gillian Jacobs (Ex-wife)]

One year ago, Congress eliminated over a billion dollars in funding for public media. Yet we the people haven't backed down. When you donate to the independent nonprofits that make up the NPR network, we hold the powerful to account together. It's the kind of journalism democracy requires that we the public must protect. Join the community of people who power this work. [e-mail]

[Justin Chang]

this week on Newsmakers, I'm surprised you even had me on comedian Bill Maher won his Mark Twain Award and the Lost Art of Political Debate.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Just engage with the argument, tell me if I'm wrong about something, and then we're going to be cool. But that's not what either extreme does in this country anymore.

[Justin Chang]

Bill Maher on this week's newsmakers. Watch or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Biancolli]

This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Anne Marie Baldonaro's 2025 interview with actor Eben Moss Bachrach, who co stars as Richie on the Bear.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Next month, you truly enter your Marvel era. You've been in the Marvel universe before, but you're becoming a main character in the new movie the Fantastic Four. First steps, you play the character Ben Grimm, who develops mutant supernatural powers and becomes the thing. This first movie is coming out and then you'll reprise your role in the two new upcoming Avenger films. So you're definitely, you know, in for more than one movie. What was it like being in this film?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, very different kind of part for me, I guess the biggest departure would be that it's motion capture, performance capture. So I wear these groovy looking pajama kind of tights and top. And then I have wires strapped to various points of my body. And then I have a helmet with kind of GoPro looking cameras kind of on a little extended gimbals right in front of my nose to sort of capture my eyes and my mouth and my facial expressions.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

And where are you? What space are you in when you're doing this?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I'm in on the set, you know, and I have I haven't seen the movie yet. But one thing I do know is that, you know, the art department and our production design is really spectacular. And so they're really pretty incredible set builds like things that I had never seen before that like reminded me of like old style, like D.W. griffith kind of like movie making huge, big sprawling sets of New York and Times Square and the Lower east side. Incredible mid century modern house that the Fantastic Four live in. So I'm just on all these really cool sets and very much involved as I would be. You know, I'm just in there with the other people in the scene and I'm interacting with them and they're in costumes and I'm just sort of in this other strange techie kind of placeholder for what then be built around me animated this much Bigger orange rock guy.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Can you describe your character? Ben Grimm. Who is the Thing? I'm not sure how much of the original story from the comic book series and from other movies are still part of this character.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

You know, people feel so strongly about this. You can't stray too far from the path. You gotta keep it pretty canon. Ben is from the Lower east side. He's from Yancey street, which is maybe a little bit like Delancey street, maybe. And he's a school friend of Reed Richards. He's a football player. He's a wrestler. He becomes a star pilot, really amazing pilot. And Reid is this genius scientist that convinces Ben and his wife sue and her brother to go up to steal the ship and go into outer space. And there's like a storm, some kind of space storm, and these gamma rays penetrate the ship and they all return changed forever. Ben is more changed because he has physically been altered. He has this new rock kind of dermis, so he looks like a monster, and he doesn't change back and forth like the Hulk or anything. That's just how he is for the rest of his life, with a couple of exceptions.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Oh, that's right. Yeah. Your character stays as a rock.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, that's really key to his psyche, I think.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I haven't seen the Fantastic Four yet, but I like that you're playing another character that has this rock exterior. In this case, literally, he's made of rock. You said that this acting compared to your other roles, it's almost like another job. I was thinking that you show so much emotion through your face and through your physicality. What did you mean that it's almost a different kind of job? What are other ways that it's different?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I would think about it a lot in two ways over the course of a day. Like, my brain would go back and forth. One speed was that I was just trying to imbue this character with as much humanity as I could because I felt like I had to, in some ways, fight through all of this animation. And because I was interested in. I think it kind of was similar to probably Ben's experience on a day where he knows how he seems and he knows he looks like this horrible monster. And so he's making concerted effort to bring his humanity through, to make people feel okay, to make people feel less, to make people be less mean towards him, to sort of undercut his external appearance. So I had that.

[Jamie Lee Curtis (Character Mom)]

That.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

That was going in one way, while simultaneously I always had all this physical freedom. And that in many ways, this technology and this animation was like, like a, like a mask. And I had. I wasn't confined to my body and my physical appearance the way that I am for any other part I've ever done. So there was things I could do with movement, with heaviness and the way he would, he has huge hands, huge feet, the way he would interact with things. So that became a much more imaginative fantasy. Sort of almost like how I would play make believe when I was a kid, you know.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

So you are thinking about movement in a different way?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, well, certainly. I mean, I had to. He couldn't really move the way that I can move. I mean, he's very, very heavy. He weighs thousands of pounds at the same time. He's very nimble. But I mean, I'm a kind of uncoordinated, lanky sort of, I don't know, wet rubber band or something. So he's a much heavier grounded dude.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Now, it was recently announced that you will be on Broadway next year in a stage play, Dog Day Afternoon. It's based on the same real life robbery that the 1975 movie Dog Day Afternoon was based on. You star with John Berthal, who is someone you co star with in the Bear. You were also on the show the Punisher with him and I think you've done plays together. I actually read that you recommended him for the part of Michael on the Bear. Is that true?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, that's true.

[John Berthal]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

I got John that job, so he got me this Dog Day Afternoon gig. So now are you.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Well, so what? And you know, what was it about him that you thought would be good for Michael, who's the best friend and you know, the brother who passed away, who committed suicide.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

And we don't really see him, correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't really see him at all in the first season until maybe just the very end of the season in a flashback. Is that.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

I think that's correct.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Am I remembering that correctly? I think something like that. And in my mind when I was reading the scripts, I kind of felt like we would never see him. And I thought that that was probably the way to play it because he's so talked about. He's this specter sort of informing everything. And I just thought it would be disappointing or maybe I just like that idea of let everybody in the audience, let them have their own idea of who this person is who's larger than life. And so when Chris Storer, our showrunner, was asking me if I thought if I had any ideas for who could be played Michael Burzado. I was like. I was like, I don't think we should ever see him. I just think that will just diminish because anything. And then at one point I did. I was like, you know what? Actually, John is such a larger than life, magnetic, charismatic person. I was like, you know, what would you think about Jon Bernthal? And I suspect that Chris all along was sort of encouraging me to reach out to John. I think. I'm pretty sure that he. All along, he was just waiting for me to come to this realization. And I think John's, you know, terrific. Really, really great in this part and also, like, one of the few actors that could fill the shoes of this guy.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

What is your connection to the story and the film Dog Day Afternoon? Because you'll be playing the role of Sal, which was originated by the actor John Casale, who appeared in only five movies before passing away too young. But the five movies were the Godfather, the Conversation, Godfather Part 2, Dog Day Afternoon, and the Deer Hunter. He was also a theater actor, like an actor's actor. I was wondering if a young Evan Moss Backrack dreamed of having an acting career like John Cazale.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Oh, 100%. I mean, what a gift. What an incredible gift he was. Yeah. The Conversation's like, probably my favorite movie. I mean, it's a tragedy that he died so young, but it.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

A lung cancer.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah. In his short time here. Oh, my gosh, what a force. So, yeah, I do feel, you know, it's like, I'll try to do my best to honor this guy, but we're gonna make it a bit different. Make something else.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Yeah. So it's based on the same source material, which was this true story of a bank robbery that happened in New York and that became the movie. But the playwright is going back to that original material, too.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on in that robbery and before that robbery that's not in the movie. That's really interesting that we're digging into. There's a lot there.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

When you announce something like that, a Broadway show that you're going to do next year, what is the process of preparing? Because I'm sure you're doing other things, too. But is it just that that's sort of when it fits into your schedule, or do you do things in the year lead up or both?

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

My process right now is to pretend that it's not happening for as long as possible and to delay, delay, delay. But, yeah, I don't know. I'm very, very, very excited to do this thing and to spend a few months with my dear friend John. And I'm sure it'll be a wonderful cast. And I like nothing more than, like working on new American plays. It's kind of my favorite thing to do to be in that rehearsal room when the writer's there, the writer's alive, they're there. It's a work in progress. It's a deep, deep collaboration between writer, director, dramaturg and the whole cast. It's like everyone's getting their hands dirty. It feels very alive and exciting, and it's been a long time since I've done that.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Edmund Moss Bachrach, thank you so much for joining us.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

[David Biancolli]

Evan Moss Bachrach speaking last year to FRESH AIR's Anne Marie Baldonado. The Bear, in which he co stars as Richie, is presenting its final season on FX and Hulu. The Bear is nominated for eight more Emmys at this year's Emmy Awards, which will be presented in September. Coming up, film critic Justin Chang reviews Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey. This is FRESH AIR.

[Justin Chang]

You know every day on Up First, NPR's Golden Globe nominated morning news podcast. We bring you three essential stories. the heart of each story are questions what really happened? What really mattered? What happens next? At npr, we stand for your right to be curious and to follow the facts. Follow up first wherever you get your podcasts and start your day knowing what matters and why.

[Capella University Announcer]

Everyone wants to know if AI is conscious, but consciousness is really hard to define.

[David Biancolli]

It's the experience we're having right now,

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

what it is like to eat chocolate

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

or to look at the blue sky.

[Capella University Announcer]

So how do we know who or what is conscious? Check out the new ways scientists are finding to to measure the elusive phenomenon on shortwave. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Biancolli]

This is FRESH air. In Christopher Nolan's much anticipated adaptation of Homer's Odyssey, Matt Damon stars as the ancient Greek warrior King Odysseus, who, after fighting in the Trojan wars, spends years trying to find his way home to Ithaca. The star filled ensemble cast also features Anne Hathaway, Paul Tom Holland and Robert Pattinson. The Odyssey opens in theaters everywhere this week. Our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

[John Berthal]

Both admirers and detractors of the writer, director Christopher Nolan, have noted his long standing obsession with dead wives. In movies like Memento, the Prestige and Inception, the male protagonists are driven toward reckless, delusional and even vengeful acts by the memories of their late spouses. One of the refreshing novelties of Nolan's new film the Odyssey is that the wife in question here is alive and well. She's Penelope, queen of Ithaca, played by Anne Hathaway. And her husband Odysseus, played by Matt Damon, spends two decades trying to return home to her after the Trojan War. Nolan, working largely from Emily Wilson's celebrated 2017 translation of Homer's epic poem, lays out the story in unexpectedly straightforward fashion. Penelope and her son Telemachus, that's Tom Holland, cling to hope that Odysseus will return. Meanwhile, coarse suitors have taken over the palace, vying for Penelope's hand in remarriage. Robert Pattinson plays the most conniving of the lot, who tells Penelope that Odysseus will never return.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

This is a household waiting for Master, I want you to choose me.

[Anne Marie Baldonado]

Ithacus King is coming back.

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

No, he's not.

[John Berthal]

But Odysseus is in fact still alive on a distant island. His memory has been bewitched by the nymph Calypso, that's Charlize Therin, and the story of his long, long journey tumbles out in a cascade of flashbacks. The jumbled timeline suits Nolan's love of nonlinear plotting. Still, I had a lot of questions going in. How would a filmmaker known for his narrative surprises tackle one of the best known stories in all literature? And how would a director of heady high tech action movies adapt to Homer's ancient world of gods and monsters? The gods themselves are largely absent, with the exception of Athena, who pops up every so often in the form of Zendaya to counsel Odysseus. Nolan is a downbeat realist by nature, which gives the Odyssey a fascinating tension. It's a fantasy made by a skeptic at heart. The supernatural elements have been tamped down when the island dwelling sorceress Circe briefly transforms Odysseus men into pigs. The magic has a low key, almost tactile realism, aided in no small part by Samantha Morton's chillingly intense performance as Sersi. And when the men outwit a giant cyclops in his lair, Nolan pares away almost all the dialogue. Gone are Odysseus showboating speeches and goes full bore monster movie in a way he never really has before. Visually, Nolan is clearly pushing himself. The film was shot entirely with 70 millimeter IMAX cameras and and the images of Odysseus ships at sea are stunningly majestic. There's a ferocious intimacy to the action scenes, some of which play out in near total darkness, illuminated only by flickering firelight. And set to Ludwig Goransson's pulse pounding score. Nolan brilliantly recreates the famous Trojan Horse deception masterminded by Odysseus himself in two gripping set pieces culminating in the total destruction of Troy. As he recalls these shattering events, Odysseus is flooded with regret, which Damon fully conveys in a terse, plain spoken performance that ranks among his finest work. Nolan treats the sacking of Troy as an epical tragedy comparable to the dawn of atomic warfare in Oppenheimer, an event that forever changed how humans and nations dealt with each other. In a way, Nolan has been telling versions of Homer's epic for decades. His films are about men trying to find their way home, even when home and the world around them has become almost unrecognizable. The Odyssey is thrilling but uneven, though it moves pretty swiftly for being so overstuffed. There are striking performances from Lupita Nyong' o as a fiercely defiant Helen of Troy, him Ash Patel as Odysseus, second in command, and a very moving John Leguizamo as an Ithacan swineherd who longs for Odysseus Return. Throughout the film, you can almost feel Nolan thinking his way through the material, figuring out which parts of the text to leave alone and which parts to cut or embellish. Some sequences, like when Odysseus tussles with the sea monsters, Scylla and Charybdis, feel a little perfunctory. But then we'll get an inspired subplot featuring Elliot Page as a Greek soldier whose grim fate weighs heavily on Odysseus conscience. And you remember that Nolan, whose style has often been dismissed as coldly intellectual, is one of our most emotionally driven filmmakers. There's no puzzle like trickery to the final act of the Odyssey. It plays out with a classical simplicity and directness. And Damon Hathaway and Holland are entirely convincing. As a broken family being pieced together at long last, you realize why Nolan wanted to make this film and why it feels like a prism through which his earlier films can be more deeply understood. For him, no less than for Odysseus, the Odyssey feels like a homecoming.

[David Biancolli]

Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker. He reviewed Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey. Harriet Clark was 11 months old when her mother was a getaway driver in the infamous 1981 robbery of a Brinks truck. The robbers were members of radical offshoots of the Weather Underground and the Black Panthers. For the next 37 years, Harriet spent Saturdays visiting her mother in prison. Her new novel is based on that she's on Monday's show. Hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at nprfreshair. You can subscribe to our YouTube [e-mail] this is FRESH AIR. We're rolling out new videos with in studio guests, behind the scenes shorts and iconic interviews from the archive. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Julian Herzfeld, Adam Stanischewski and Charlie Kyre. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper. For Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley. I'm David Biancooli

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

on consider this NPR's afternoon news podcast. We cover everything from politics to the economy to the world, but every story starts with a question. At npr, we stand for your right

[David Biancolli]

to be curious, to make sense of the biggest story of the day and

[Eben Moss Bachrach]

what it means for you.

[David Biancolli]

Follow Consider this Wherever you get your podcasts,

[Gillian Jacobs (Ex-wife)]

every episode of it's been a minute, NPR's what's Happening in Culture podcast starts by asking three questions.

[Jeremy Allen White (Carmi)]

Who?

[Justin Chang]

How?

[Gillian Jacobs (Ex-wife)]

Why now? If the culture's asking it, we're talking about it. At npr, we stand for your right to be curious and indulge your cultural curiosity. Follow It's Been a Minute wherever you get your podcasts and we'll break down the zeitgeisty topics that are filling your feedback.