Filmmaker Nia DaCosta Defies Categorization

Summary

Fresh Air (NPR)

Episode: Filmmaker Nia DaCosta Defies Categorization
Aired: October 29, 2025
Host: Tonya Mosley
Guest: Nia DaCosta

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Episode Overview

This episode of Fresh Air centers on the rise and creative vision of filmmaker Nia DaCosta. Host Tonya Mosley speaks with DaCosta about her innovative body of work, her historic milestones (as the first Black woman to direct a #1 U.S. box office film and a Marvel movie), and her latest project, "Hedda," a radical adaptation of Henrik Ibsen's "Hedda Gabler." The conversation explores DaCosta’s reframing of classic narratives, her cinematic influences, the realities of representation, her unique directorial style, and the personal experiences shaping her ambitious career.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Adapting "Hedda": Revelations and Reimaginings

• Hedda's Appeal:
  • DaCosta felt "a revelation" when reading the original play:

    “She does some pretty terrible things in the play… but she’s so vulnerable, she’s as vulnerable as she is vicious and she’s so complicated and she’s funny.” — Nia DaCosta (02:56)

  • Drawn to Hedda as a portrait of a woman striving for self-expression under oppression.
• Major Changes in the Adaptation:
  • Race & Identity: The central character is now a mixed-race Black woman (played by Tessa Thompson), reflecting DaCosta’s intention to expand representation:

    “I wanted more visions of us and more diverse kinds of visions of us, Black women in media.” — Nia DaCosta (03:57)

  • Gender & Relationships: Hedda’s ex-lover and husband’s rival becomes a woman (“Eileen Loveborg”), adding new layers to the dynamic:

    “If that’s a woman—if that’s a female character—then I want to empathize a bit more… I just thought she was much more compelling as Eileen.” — Nia DaCosta (04:58)

2. Representation: Beyond “Blind Casting”

• DaCosta distinguishes her approach from “colorblind” or purely educational stories about race:

  “I really just wanted to represent characters… not in an educational way but just saying, yeah, she's Black and this is a part of what that means in the context of the story, so that it feels lived in.” — Nia DaCosta (05:34)

3. 1950s England: The Age of Pretending

• Pivotal setting:

  “The fifties have this energy and it’s no surprise the sixties came right after… I think the fifties were this time of a reaction to trauma… and that reaction was safety comes in conformity.” — Nia DaCosta (06:51)

• Draws parallels between postwar conformity and contemporary societal pressures:

  “The world is so confusing… social media is as scary as nuclear weapons, and we just want to feel safe and I think that's where tradwives come from, by the way.” — Nia DaCosta (08:13)

4. Freedom vs. Power – The Heart of "Hedda"

• The two main female characters embody different “survival strategies":

  “Power doesn’t necessarily equal freedom, especially if you have to hold onto the power to feel free… That was a really intentional sort of dichotomy I was trying to set up.” — Nia DaCosta (11:16)

5. On Directorial Style and Building Tension

• DaCosta’s hallmark: long, unbroken shots that anchor the audience within the character’s experience:

  “It makes the audience lean in… sometimes when you cut too much, viewing a film can become... passive. What I really want is for you to feel the things I want you to feel, but you’re participating in a way.” — Nia DaCosta (16:31)

6. Breaking Barriers and the Weight of “Firsts”

• On becoming the first Black woman to direct a #1 film and a Marvel movie:

  “I had no idea… I’m so proud of it, and then I think 'Wow, we got a ways to go.' But I love what the landscape is doing right now — there's a shift.” — Nia DaCosta (17:50)

• Urgency to seize the moment:

  “I definitely have this feeling of… I don’t know how long this will last so let me make sure that I make the most of it.” — Nia DaCosta (19:13)

7. Holding Emotional Core Amid Blockbuster Scale

• On keeping the “sisters” theme alive in "The Marvels" despite the film’s scale and spectacle:

  “The emotional core of the film... these three women and how they develop... could stay prominent. So it was one, me really believing in it, and also just having the help that I needed to bring it all to life.” — Nia DaCosta (22:37)

8. Influences: Audacity and Adaptation

• Inspired by the 1970s New American Cinema (“the audacity!”) as much as by Black women filmmakers:

  “It really made me feel brave watching those men be audacious... and at the same time I was watching Kasi Lemmons’s films and Gina Prince-Bythewood… so I took for granted that I could make movies too.” — Nia DaCosta (24:00)

9. Early Lessons: Finding Her Place as a Black Woman

• Adapting to predominantly white institutions taught her how to “stand in her power”:

  “As a Black woman, like being audacious... you have to have more to do what we do.” — Nia DaCosta (29:29)

10. Family, Class, and Drive

• On being raised by her single mother, Charmaine DaCosta, a musician with a resourceful spirit:

  “I mean my mom is someone who’s had so many lives it feels like… she just, her spirit is so beautiful.” — Nia DaCosta (38:00)

  • Her mother emphasized both ambition and realism:

    “Follow your dreams but it costs you something, you know—it’s work and it’s hard and you have to love it.” — Nia DaCosta (39:38)

• DaCosta recounts learning, early, that socioeconomic realities require grit and adaptability.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On “colorblind” casting vs. lived Blackness:

  “It’s not like you’re ignoring race entirely... you don’t have to contend at all with their race and what that actually means for them moving through the world… that wasn’t really interesting to me.” — Nia DaCosta (05:34)

• On safety and conformity in the 1950s:

  “Safety comes in conformity… because this film is about people trying to find safety and fighting against that conformity, I thought it was a really interesting parallel.” — Nia DaCosta (06:51)

• On long takes and restraint:

  “It makes the audience lean in... sometimes when you cut too much, viewing a film can become... passive.” — Nia DaCosta (16:31)

• On representation in media:

  “I just thought a Black woman would be the center because I wanted more visions of us and more diverse kinds of visions of us—Black women in media.” — Nia DaCosta (03:57)

• Ad-libbed moment in ‘Hedda’:

  “That [’a roach can live without its head for a week’] was a Tessa Thompson ad lib. I loved it!” — Nia DaCosta (10:19)

• On her mother’s guidance and example:

  “She really believes in pursuing it no matter what because I think her ethos is sort of like, have a plan B, but that’s what you do when you fail—that’s not what you do without trying.” — Nia DaCosta (39:38)

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Important Sections & Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------| | Introduction & Scene from "Hedda" | 00:17–02:11| | DaCosta on Hedda’s character and motivation | 02:41–03:57| | Issues of race, identity, and adaptation | 03:57–05:34| | Colorblind casting and lived experience | 05:34–06:40| | Why 1950s England? | 06:40–08:12| | Parallels between the 1950s and today | 08:13–08:46| | Scene: Hedda and Eileen’s dynamic—ad lib trivia | 09:23–10:34| | Power vs. freedom as a central theme | 11:16 | | On "Candyman," racial violence, and legacy | 11:56–15:57| | Stylistic hallmarks—long shots, audience engagement | 15:57–17:25| | Impact of “firsts” and urgency in career progression | 17:25–20:10| | Emotional core of "The Marvels" | 22:08–23:25| | Influences from 1970s auteurs and Black women directors | 24:00–25:23| | Lessons from being the only Black girl in boarding school | 32:28–35:49| | Charmaine DaCosta, reggae star and mother—impact and lessons | 35:49–41:35|

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Conclusion

This engaging, candid interview distills DaCosta’s refusal to be categorized—cinematically or personally. From revisiting Ibsen and subverting classic narratives, to navigating the pressures and opportunities of being a trailblazer in Hollywood, Nia DaCosta offers both aspiring filmmakers and general audiences a roadmap for authenticity, ambition, and audacious artistry.

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For more on this and to subscribe to Fresh Air:

• Listen at NPR or your preferred podcast app.
• Hedda is now in theaters and streaming on Amazon Prime Video.

Transcript

[NPR Announcer]

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[Tonya Mosley]

Fresh air i'm tonya moseley and today i'm talking with director nia dacosta who's had a meteoric rise over the past few years little woods her first feature in twenty eighteen was an intimate story about two sisters in north dakota who turned to a life of crime to make ends meet it got a lot of attention including from jordan peele who later brought dacosta on to reimagine the horror classic candyman that film made dacosta the first black woman to direct a movie that opened at number one at the us box office dacosta made history again with the marvels becoming the youngest director and first black woman to helm a film in the marvel universe and now she's turned to something even more personal a project she wrote years ago and never let go of it's called hedda and it's dacosta's take on henrik ibsen's eighteen ninety one play hedda gabler in dacosta's hands the story becomes a dark exploration of a woman suffocating in a life she never wanted trapped in a nineteen fifties english manor house over the course of one wild unsettling night tessa thompson stars as hedda and here's a scene at the start of the film where police interrogate her about what happened that night hedda tessman is that.

[Actor (Police Interrogator)]

Right this is your husband's home hedda.

[Nia DaCosta]

Is fine.

[Actor (Police Interrogator)]

So could you tell us the events of the evening the way you remember them leading up to the.

[NPR Announcer]

Shooting my memory's a bit fuzzy it.

[Nia DaCosta]

Was a party after all certainly i.

[Tonya Mosley]

Can do my best.

[Nia DaCosta]

First thing i remember seeing is a bloody mess of.

[Tonya Mosley]

A person dragged into my throat afford.

[Actor (Police Interrogator)]

That please there was a lot of.

[Nia DaCosta]

Yelling earlier.

[NPR Announcer]

Where should i start.

[Tonya Mosley]

What ensues is a dark and twisted tale of jealousy and control nia dacosta grew up in harlem and studied film at nyu's tisch school of the arts she started out as a production assistant working on sets for martin scorsese steve mcqueen and steven soderbergh she recently wrapped directing twenty eight years later the bone the next film in the zombie horror trilogy nia dacosta welcome to fresh air thank.

[Nia DaCosta]

You so much for having me you.

[Tonya Mosley]

Know you have been quoted as saying that this particular hedda it was like a revelation when you first read the play and i just have to know what was it about hedda's character that you couldn't let go of oh man.

[Nia DaCosta]

I mean so much i think you know she does some pretty terrible things in the play and she does some extreme acts that are emotionally violent and she asks people to do some terrible things but she's so vulnerable she's as vulnerable as she is vicious and she's so complicated and she's funny and she's all these things and i just thought it was a really interesting portrait of a woman who was trying to express herself while living under oppression essentially that's.

[Tonya Mosley]

So interesting you use the words vulnerable and vicious because hedda is a product of her time the original play is set in nineteenth century norway so we understand what life for a woman was back in those days but in your version that confinement takes on new dimensions because you've reimagined her she's a mixed race woman her former lover and her husband's rival is also a woman walk me through those decisions at the time.

[Nia DaCosta]

When i came to writing a script i always just thought a black woman would be the center because i wanted more visions of us and more diverse kinds of visions of us black women in media and also i was lucky enough to have tessa thompson as a collect collaborator on my first film and is a very good friend and i just thought oh well tess is going to play hedda you know that was just an assumption i made and i told her about it and so from that point on i'm like yeah so now hedda is a black mixed race woman you know now she's this dimension that i have to feed into into the script and then turning eilert loveborg from the play into eileen loveborg was really about me wanting to dig into what i found so compelling about the piece which was really this idea of a woman trying to navigate a repressed society who's trying to put her into a box and i thought she needs more women around her and this character eilert he's always complaining about being so brilliant and no one understands him and no one listens to him and i thought well if that's a woman that's a female character then i want to empathize a bit more and then i understand even more fully why she's so depressed and why that leads her to drink and to kind of keep self sabotaging in a way i just thought she was much more compelling as eileen.

[Tonya Mosley]

Than eilert okay this is so fascinating first i wanna start with the race thing because your approach kind of feels different than blind casting which is something that we've seen recently over the last few years it's not like you're ignoring race entirely by just choosing someone and just plopping them into a time period how do you view it how do.

[Nia DaCosta]

You look at it yeah you know i think in the sort of correcting the sins of our past the dearth of visibility for people of color in cinema i think sometimes the easy answer was oh colorblind casting so you can have people of color in the film but you don't have to contend at all with their race and what that actually means for them moving through the world and then the other version is the film is only about that it's here to educate you about the experiences of being being a black person or a person of color or queer person or any minority and that's a function of it but that wasn't really interesting to me when it came to doing this adaptation i really just wanted to represent characters in particular a black woman a mixed race woman in her experience not in an educational way but just saying yeah she's black and this is a part of what that means in the context of the story so that it feels lived in it felt like what it feels like to live for the life as opposed to you know a seminar about race relations in nineteen fifties in england i think i heard.

[Tonya Mosley]

You say that the nineteen fifties were kind of the great age of pretending and i wanted to unpack that a little bit what made it the perfect time period for your adaptation i mean.

[Nia DaCosta]

Everything you said but also i'm really fascinated by the post war period and how it shapes our lives even today i mean it's so many of the conflicts that we're dealing with now are directly related to to the end of that war and i found it really interesting how people tried to recover and heal after you know forty four million people die and these conflicts of opened wounds and maybe pasted over some other ones and what a society does to say you know what we're okay it's over now let's go back to normal and the women who'd been experiencing this new kind of freedom you know they're working now they're kind of taking more prominent places in society are like are told the men are back bye girl leave the factories you go home and then these men come back traumatized and they're told okay go back to work thank you so much let's go we're good everything's fine and so the fifties have this energy and it's no surprise the sixties came right after you know with this explosion of freedom this questioning of like what is freedom what does freedom look like from like a sexual point of view but then also like you know the civil rights movement in america in particular exploded in this time so i think the fifties were this time of a reaction to trauma in a way that i found really fascinating and that reaction was safety comes in conformity and because this film is about people trying to find safety and fighting against that conformity i thought it was a really interesting parallel oh my gosh.

[Tonya Mosley]

Is that what we're going through right.

[Nia DaCosta]

Now oh my god girl is it i'm a bit of a stoic i think capital s when it comes to trying to navigate the horrors of humanity in our present day and history really helps me to sort of process what's happening the cyclical nature of it and i think it is what's happening right now the world is so confusing there's so many forces we don't understand social media is as scary as nuclear weapons and we just want to feel safe and i think that's where tradwives come.

[Tonya Mosley]

From by the way i think you're right i mean that's why when you say safety comes in conformity i mean i thought about all of those things i actually want to play a scene that really gets at the heart of this idea of safety this conformity and it's also at the heart of the dynamic between hedda and her former lover eileen so in this scene i want to play they've stolen a few moments alone at this party and eileen who is played by nina haas she's an academic she's a rival as i mentioned to hedda's husband in the academic world and she's basically telling hedda you're wasting your life playing a housewife let's listen.

[Nia DaCosta]

You could be so much more look.

[Tonya Mosley]

What i've done you could do anything.

[Nia DaCosta]

Like what become a professor tell me how many women are at the university teaching two and they're both white i presume whatever you're upset i couldn't choose you i was once not anymore not for a long time since thea i know she's still there i saw her little bag near the door do you know that a roach can live without its head for a week.

[Tonya Mosley]

Excuse me that was a scene from the new movie hedda written and directed by my guest today nia dacosta i'll tell you i had to google that roach can live without its head oh my gosh.

[Nia DaCosta]

That was a tessa thompson ad lib i loved it oh it was yeah cause earlier in the scene eileen says you scramble around like a roach trying to control a man's destiny you know shape your own and that's why nina responds in that way she's like huh that wasn't the line it's so fun.

[Tonya Mosley]

Were there a lot of et loops.

[Nia DaCosta]

In the film no actually i mean i have a pretty robust rehearsal process so if there's any thoughts and feelings you know we can bring it up then and i can adjust the script accordingly but i also like once we get what we need i'm like okay jazz riff if you want but it's not like a you know free for.

[Tonya Mosley]

All there's so much tension in that scene because it's not just about their romantic past it's two completely different survival strategies so eileen thinks she's free because she's refused to marry she has this career but hedda sees something else and i was just curious when you were writing that dynamic were you consciously setting up two different kinds of traps absolutely.

[Nia DaCosta]

Something i think a lot about is what does freedom look like what does it mean to be free especially as a black person in america but just as a human being and the tension of the movie is this question for women who don't have the access that they think they have but i think often people their shortcut to freedom is trying to attain power and so what these two women are actually doing is trying to attain power hedda through marriage and through the conformity and eileen through her intellect but those are both incomplete things because power doesn't necessarily equal freedom especially if you have to hold onto the power to feel free and freedom should really be divorced of those things so that was a really intentional sort of dichotomy i was trying to set up between those two characters after your.

[Tonya Mosley]

First film little woods jordan peele tapped you to direct candyman which is a reimagining of the nineteen ninety two film directed by bernard rose about an urban legend this supernatural figure with a hook for a hand who appears when you say his name five times in a mirror but your version digs deeper into racial violence and systemic erasure that created that legend and i actually want to play a clip from the film in this scene billy burke played by colman domingo lives in what was once the cabrini green housing project in chicago and he's telling anthony a story of the candyman let's listen but the first one.

[Actor (Police Interrogator)]

Where it all began was in the eighteen nineties it's the story helen found the story of daniel robitaille he made a good living touring the country painting portraits for wealthy families mostly white and they loved but you know how it.

[Martin Johnson]

Goes.

[Actor (Police Interrogator)]

They love what we make but not us one day he's commissioned to paint the daughter of a chicago factory owner who made his fortune in the stockyards well robitaille committed the ultimate sin of his time they fell in love they had an affair she got pregnant the girl tells her father and what you know he hired some men to hunt robitaille down told him to get creative chase him through here in the middle of the day he collapses from exhaustion right near where the old tower and chestnut used to be they beat him tortured him cut off his arm inject a meat hook in the stump they smear honeycomb from the nearby hives on his chest and let the bees sting him a crowd started to form to watch the show the big finale they set him on fire and he finally dies but a story like that a pain like that lasts forever that's candyman.

[Tonya Mosley]

That was a scene from the twenty twenty one film candyman directed by my guest today nia dacosta what was it about the original candyman and specifically about what you could bring to it that made you know you wanted to.

[Nia DaCosta]

Direct it oh i mean i think that movie came out when i was quite young but when i was in middle school it was very much a part of our you know bathroom shenanigans it was bloody mary and it was candyman and because it happened in the projects i grew up in harlem and the projects you know i lived across you from the projects the high rises were over on one forty eighth street like that's where i imagined these things happening so i didn't feel like it was in a movie or far away and so it was just such a part of my a part of my lore that horrified me when i was younger but i loved what jordan wanted to do he really wanted to expand it to turn it on its head and that exploration of how to do that was really exciting and i thought i had a point of view on it as someone who lives in america and remembers not just the candyman legend but also i remember when amadou diallo was shot fifty times by the cops in new york that was my first time understanding what it was to be black in america that was when i was like oh okay so i think also holding that and holding all of the people who become martyrs and sort of emblems of our pain and our systemic oppression is why it was really important to me to balance all these things properly you know the the horror and the thrills but also the real pain that we're talking about.

[Tonya Mosley]

I also want to talk with you about your aesthetic because i'm starting to see it like with every movie it becomes clear there's a moment in candyman actually there's several and actually in hedda as well where you are holding on to these long unbroken shots so we're locked into the character we're moving through space and you just don't cut it there's like no tight medium wide shots of these different spaces where does that come from what are you trying to make us feel when you are refusing to cut.

[Nia DaCosta]

Away yeah i think it's just really great for tension and building anticipation you know why aren't we cutting what's going to happen why am i sitting here on the shot i think it's it makes the audience lean in i think sometimes when you cut too much viewing a film can become something of a passive experience where i'm literally telling you look here look here look here look here do this feel this but what i really want is for you to feel the things i want you to feel but because you are participating in a way you're actively looking at the at the at the frame and you're like okay what am i what am i looking for in a way especially when it's a wide shot and we're holding on a wide and then i just think it's great to just get out of the way of the actors sometimes you know just really trust and be confident in what they're doing and that they can hold the attention of.

[Tonya Mosley]

The audience candyman opened at number one and it made you as i mentioned before the first black woman to debut at number one at the box office do those titles like first black woman or youngest director in the case of the marvels movie do those titles mean anything to you oh man it's so.

[Nia DaCosta]

Interesting because so much of what i love about this is the process of doing it and that being said it was pretty amazing i was like oh i didn't know any of these things actually like i think i was in a in an interview when a journalist told me i was the youngest marvel director and i had no idea i was gonna be the first black woman with the number one film absolutely no idea i was kind of dumbfounded by that because to me you know i grew up with casey lemons and gina prince bythewood making films and you know i was in college when ava was making her films and ava duvernay ava duvernay yeah and and so i thought it was ava or gina i was like me and so it was kind of amazing and of course i'm so proud of it and then i think wow we got a ways to go guys but i love what the landscape is doing right now there's a shift yeah and i felt that when i was like when i was making my first films i really felt oh i think they're actually opening the door to us right now so i better run through it before it closes is that.

[Tonya Mosley]

What it is because it does when i look at your career it almost feels like a sprint it's like you're not just walking upstairs you're like sprinting.

[Nia DaCosta]

Up the stairs yeah and now i'm at the top puffing and puffing like okay time to take a little break before i go up the rest of these flights i think so i think i have this feeling of having to prove myself and also speaking of freedom like i really wanted to feel as though i had the freedom to make the kinds of projects i wanted to make and i thought okay how do i build a career that facilitates that and part of that was knowing okay i need to not get typecast as just an indie drama director i need to also pursue these other genres that i love like horror like comic book movies you know i really wanted to do those things not just because i love them but because i also was thinking like when about how to build a career that sustained and that could eventually allow me to make original films that were bigger scale so yeah i definitely have this feeling of like i don't know how long this will last so let me make sure that i make the most of it if you're.

[Tonya Mosley]

Just joining us my guest is filmmaker nia dacosta we'll be right back after a short break i'm tonya moseley and this is fresh air this message comes.

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[Tonya Mosley]

Yeah you went from candyman to the marvels which is this massive marvel movie and i heard that when you pitched for it you wrote that it's a story about sisters and that stuck with me because that's not what people think about when we think about a superhero movie how did you hold onto that emotional core when you're also dealing with i don't know you know cgi sequences and intergalactic battles i mean the great.

[Nia DaCosta]

Thing about making a marvel film is like the relationship between the amount of work and how huge the movie is is directly proportionate to how much help you get and so you know the first thing they tell you to do is they're like call the other the directors they'll tell you what it's like so i did that but then you also have an amazing crew like everyone wants to make a marvel film so you get the best of the best helping you through the experience and that includes my executive every film has an exec and mine was mary lovanos and she helped me to make sure that the emotional core of the film these three women and how they develop and relate to each other and how the relationships change and shift could stay prominent so it was one me like really believing in it and also just having the help that i needed to bring.

[Tonya Mosley]

It all to life okay nia i wanna go back to where it all started for you as a filmmaker i know it started as a child very young but i wanna talk about your idols so a lot of filmmakers who make their mark in the nineteen seventies scorsese coppola spielberg they're all folks that you talk about quite a bit and these are guys you believe could do anything with a camera yeah but you're not a guy and it's not nineteen seventies what is it about their particular brand of filmmaking that speaks to you.

[Nia DaCosta]

Yeah that was like the age of the new american cinema and i just i mean the audacity of it all is for me what i really responded to i mean i remember the first time i saw apocalypse now i was like what do you mean like what you recreated this and it's a brilliant film but it's also like this managed chaos and i was just so in awe of it and i think also with apocalypse now actually i was the reason why i watched it was because i was studying joseph conrad's heart of darkness in ap english and my teacher said oh there's an adaptation of it a loose adaptation called apocalypse now and we happened to have it in my dorm cause i was at boarding school at the time and actually now that i think about it i wonder if that's why i'm so loosey goosey with adaptation and feeling i can do anything because you know that's from the heart of africa to the vietnam war that transliteration was very it's a very different world that he set his adaptation in so yeah it really made me feel brave watching those men be audacious and i didn't really think about their maleness their whiteness you know their privilege i was just like oh movies great and because at the same time i was watching casey lemon's film and watching eaves bayou lemon basketball and so i took for granted that i could make movies.

[Tonya Mosley]

Too you went into college knowing what you wanted to do do you remember when you when the seed was planted in your mind that you could be a filmmaker and then the choice that i am going to be a filmmaker even aside from just all of those great films that you watched yeah i.

[Nia DaCosta]

Think it was between the ages of eleven and thirteen i think my mom and i were talking a lot about like film and what i wanted to do with my life and i was always writing and i was always saying i'm gonna be a writer i'm gonna write some stuff and my mom was like yeah you are i can see that for sure and then i got into film and i and i thought i wanted to be an actor i was like oh i mean they're the ones you're seeing you know they're the ones who you're empathizing with and feeling through and then my mom said no you're too sensitive i think yeah she said you're too sensitive babe the way you want the way you talk about this the way you talk about film and the way you are i think you want to be a director i didn't know she was saying i was a tyrant but i was like oh yeah i think my mom's right but now i have this word director and then i can ask myself what is a director what does that mean and that sent me down the rabbit hole and you know i remember being at nyu and i would i'd have like okay coen brothers let's go and i'd go to the fisher center at bopes and watch all of the coen brothers films and then i'd go okay ang lee i'd watch all of ang lee's films and just go down the filmography and that started because my mom identified for me oh i think it's director i think that's you you worked as.

[Tonya Mosley]

A pa not just for scorsese but for steve mcqueen and steven soderbergh these are directors with completely different styles yeah take me back to those sets what were you noticing what were you absorbing is there a through line that you saw with all of them even though.

[Nia DaCosta]

They'Re all different yeah i mean i was a production office pa and so a lot of my time which was good because i would write my scripts at my desk oh and during your time yeah you know but when i got to go to set it was really awesome to watch them run the set and they're all very different people but what i learned was everything comes from the top because even in the production office you feel the difference because of how the director's running the set you know when i was working on the nick which is the steven soderbergh tv show i think a pa got yelled at by someone and the production manager said whoa whoa whoa who yelled at you we don't do that here and she went and talked to the person like and that's a soderbergh thing it's like everyone is respected here and i thought it was so inspiring how that comes from the top and then on steve mcqueen sets he comes to the production office and i visit set sometime and you just see the way he talks to people and the gentleness but also the sheer honesty with which he communicates i was like ah noted and then scorsese i mean geez that was so amazing for me that was my that was my first big scripted job pa on that show and what show was it oh it was vinyl i worked on the pilot of vinyl and you know it was a whole production oh my goodness i mean twenty four hour production office which i have not experienced since i would never ask anyone to do but i learned there it's like those sorts of big muscular productions it's like the rigor of the work the seriousness with which he's pursuing perfection was really inspiring as well the sheer skill and experience of the people there it was very hollywood i'll say it was very cool you know i.

[Tonya Mosley]

Was thinking all of those guys something that's common for all of them that they all share is they are uncompromising like they will fight with the studios to protect their vision and i'm so curious about what this looks like for you and what types of considerations have you had to make or you just decided i'm gonna bypass that and stand.

[Nia DaCosta]

In my power i think a big thing for me has been i was educated in many predominantly white institutions and you learn what being a black woman does to the sound of your voice to how much presence you have in a room you know you learn pretty quickly what it means to other people and how that changes who like not who you are but how you're perceived and how you're perceived changes perhaps how you will approach compromise for example or being uncompromising that has been very helpful because hollywood is a predominantly white space and i mean in general i'm a person who's just like quite kind and really just wants everyone to have a good time and get along and i'm also very honest i don't really have a poker face so i've always just been like kind honesty will get you through but as i've gotten older and as i've become more confident sometimes it's a hard no i'm not doing that or guess what i'm doing this and actually even though i know that perhaps you'll perceive that as more aggressive because i'm a black woman i'm okay with that now i'm okay with that though it's gotten better as i've gotten older but it is as a black woman like being audacious having the audacity as a black woman frankly you have to have more to do what we do.

[Tonya Mosley]

If you're just joining us my guest is filmmaker nia dacosta we're talking about her new film hedda a provocative reimagining of henrik ibsen's classic play hedda gabler we'll continue our conversation after a short break this is fresh air this message.

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[Nia DaCosta]

Much more than looks good design is never just about aesthetics it's about intention.

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[Nia DaCosta]

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At cidq dot org npr you went.

[Tonya Mosley]

To public school in harlem for a short period of time right i did yeah and then you made this switch to private school then to boarding school those are huge shifts yeah going to.

[Nia DaCosta]

Boarding school in the middle of nowhere in connecticut in the heart of of like wasp country was very it's a very specific place and i wasn't fully prepared for for the lack of diversity like i wasn't i like i totally took for granted what a gift new york city is in all its imperfections and all its craziness i really took for granted like because not just in terms of race but also in terms of like socioeconomics like i went to school public school with rich kids and poor kids and everything in between because it's new york city so you know going to boarding school it was like a whole other ecosystem that i had to learn and it was a rough ride my first year i was like what is happening i don't understand these people who am i who do they expect me to be and it really shaped me moving forward actually really like trying to protect myself and my feelings was something that i really had to figure out how to do you know moving forward but then eventually again i kind of matured and then it was like okay i'm just gonna be myself i think i think that might be.

[Tonya Mosley]

The way forward is there a particular moment that first year in boarding school a time in school in general where you really learned that lesson of like oh i'm trying to be this thing but i just need to be myself.

[Nia DaCosta]

Mm yeah i think someone said to me i don't know where you come from but you know we don't do that here and i was like oh like you cannot there is no conformity for me because i'm black like you know like it doesn't matter if you wear like the birkenstocks and the and the fleeces and you know have a juicy tube like you're always you know you're always gonna be black and in a way that's absolutely freeing you're like oh great okay well if this doesn't matter to you then i'm not gonna do it either i'm not gonna like get a weave right now i'll just keep my braids you know like it's really it's really freeing and then also and then just again owning your authority like owning your space i mean i learned that over years but yeah i mean i went to boarding school i think i think i was twelve my first year and turned thirteen so i was really young and i really wanted to fit in and i really was still also grappling with what it meant to be black like i remember my mom trying to talk to me about shopping while black and i was like mom what are you talking about i was like what is that i just like didn't want to hear it and she's like and she'd be like you know if i was reading like elle magazine she'd also give me an s and she just wanted me to know like she was trying to tell me like the world's gonna tell you some lies about yourself and i want you to not believe them and i being young i was like trying to figure out how to be a person let alone get all this extra information and she really and i credit her so much with this she really just she just knew what it would be like and especially going away to school which she really wanted me to do too because my mom is huge in education and i really got that from her.

[Tonya Mosley]

Your mother charmaine dacosta she was in the girl group whirl a girl they were a reggae group that did the jamaica bobsled chant for the movie cool runnings which came out in nineteen ninety three and i actually want to play a little bit of it because i think that everybody kind of knows knows this once they hear it let's listen to a little bit okay let's do.

[Nia DaCosta]

It.

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Go no jimmy chest scene kind.

[Nia DaCosta]

Of we have a bobsled team this year go sometimes in life there's disappointments we've got to keep on working for our world man you know you can achieve whatever you believe keep your eyes on the prize take it a little higher.

[Tonya Mosley]

That was the reggae group whirl a girl singing the jamaica bobsled chant which was written and performed by my guest today's mother charmaine dacosta you had to be around three or four when.

[Nia DaCosta]

That came out oh my gosh i loved hearing that i mean i remember meeting dougie doug and i remember like my mom like shaggy used to like watch me when they performed together like you know that was like my childhood like and i was like being on their music video sets and being in the studio with my mom and then my mom would go on tour for you know for some stretches of time so crazy like i oh it's so fun i love it so much your.

[Tonya Mosley]

Mom she's a powerhouse in her own right she's also been a gospel singer she has a juice business how did watching her navigate all these different chapters shape or help you think about your.

[Nia DaCosta]

Own career oh man i mean my mom is someone who's had so many lives it feels like and she's so fiercely intelligent and she also i really feel i can do anything and she always said to me like i'll support you whatever you want to do but i think she valued one education but also ambition and when i wanted to be an artist i remember her saying you know you just need to know that it's going to be tough and you're going to be broke and you're going to be like why am i doing this to myself but if you love it it's worth it and the money will come and i really believe that you know i and she was right because you know we're not we're not well off you know and there was no there's no backup plan for me in terms of you know if i don't make rent it's like i don't make rent there's no one i can go and say can you give me money you know but my mom prepared me for that life she was like and watching her live it watching her success the modicum of success she had with her career in the nineties and also the way she operated like the joy with which my mom pursued her art like she's happiest when she's singing and i've seen that it made me feel how important it is for me to do the same you know.

[Tonya Mosley]

I'Ve been wondering your mom says to you the world is your oyster but yet you didn't grow up with a lot of money your mom went into a lot of debt to send you to these really great schools and so there are these two things that exist together like follow your dreams but there wasn't like just this clear road to success so how did you hold those two things together as a young person.

[Nia DaCosta]

I think the lesson i got from all that was follow your dreams but it costs you something you know it's work and it's hard and you have to love it i mean they say that your first day in film school but you know for me i mean i also i've seen my mom go from you know signed to island def jam and touring a lot to not being able to make a living singing which she was able to do when i was really young so i also knew that that was something that could happen that you could you know go from being at the top of the world because my mom you know she also worked in thirty rock she worked as an executive assistant at ge and so you know i saw when the life changes and how you have to make space for your passions when it is no longer your vocation but my mom she just her spirit is so beautiful i think she just she really believes in pursuing it no matter what because i think her ethos is sort of like have a plan b but that's what you do when you fail that's not what you do without trying.

[Tonya Mosley]

When she worked at thirty rock did you ever visit or have a chance.

[Nia DaCosta]

To visit oh my god i was there all the time i mean also like single mom i was just like booping around the office like hey and you know i remember bring youg daughters to work day it was so fun cause as you can imagine thirty rock like everything gets shot there we had like they did like you know of course i did horror makeup they did like a makeup thing and you can get like a wound or something on your head and i got like a wound on my forehead and walked around with my mom and people were like is she okay my mom's like she's fine but also like even that like another parent might have said like okay take it off your head we're going outside my mom just let me be a weirdo like she really did let me you know be a little freak and she didn't stamp up my voice if anything the times when she tried to like shift or correct me was when she it was about my safety.

[Tonya Mosley]

Nia dacosta this has been such a pleasure to talk with you thank you.

[Nia DaCosta]

So much thank you so much tanya.

[Tonya Mosley]

For having me nia dacosta's new film is called hedda it's in theaters and also streaming on amazon prime video after a short break jazz critic martin johnson reviews the new album from linda mae han oh this is fresh air this.

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Message comes from dignity memorial and memphis funeral home one of their nationwide providers retired football coach bill muir shares how they curated a memory table for his wife barbara that brought joy to family and friends at her celebration of life.

[Actor (Police Interrogator)]

If you walked around this table when you got to the end you knew barbara muir i walked around it at least a dozen times i mentioned that she liked to play scrabble well they had a scrabble board there and on the scrabble board it spelled out the names of all of our grandchildren there was a decal from her high school you know her sister she walked around and said to me bill how do they know so much about barbara their meticulous care and the detail in which they put it together speaks volumes i.

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[Tonya Mosley]

Dot com bassist and composer linda mahan o took the fast track to jazz prominence quickly emerging on the scene in the two thousands and becoming the bass player in bands led by pat matheny and vijay iyer but on her latest recording strange heavens she's inviting listeners to look back at her early work strange heavens features an unusual trio bass drums and trumpet just like her debut recording in two thousand nine jazz critic martin johnson says that there's significant insight in the comparison.

[Martin Johnson]

Linda mahan o's album entry was one of the most intriguing recordings of two thousand nine the lineup was both austere and feisty and it was for good reason o and her bandmates trumpeter ambrose akin missouri and drummer obed calvar were in their twenties and eager to tell the jazz world in no uncertain terms that they belonged mission accomplished now each has an established academic position and all three are at the top tier of their profession for this recording o convened a new trio featuring iken mizuri and drummer tyshawn sori who is her colleague in vijay iyer's trio as you could hear on the track we just heard living proof they still make assertive music but it's more relaxed now her new band has the convivial air of friends trading triumphs and challenges over drinks or a meal.

[Nia DaCosta]

Sam.

[Martin Johnson]

The bass has long been regarded as a foundational or cornerstone instrument but in o's hands it's nimbler she can move from setting the beat to dancing with the soloist in the blink of an eye as she does there on portal or as we can hear on the sweetest water her solos energize the music like an accelerant.

[Nia DaCosta]

Sa.

[Martin Johnson]

In between o's trio recordings she built a reputation as a composer with a broad tonal palette and an appetite for experimental configurations her previous recording featured vocalise from sara seppa and mark turner's reserved approach to saxophone on the front line and she's written compelling music that honors her asian heritage and australian upbringing this recording also offers an opportunity to contrast trumpeter akin missouri's development much of his work is complex and thematic but here he lets his hair down and shows his playful side by going back to her first setting a smaller group than her typical band linda mahan o is presenting an argument that with the right musicians less is more.

[Tonya Mosley]

Jazz critic martin johnson writes for the wall street journal and downbeat he reviewed strange heavens the new album by bassist and composer linda mahan oh tomorrow on fresh air we talk about the man behind president trump's dismantling of the federal bureaucracy and expansion of executive power russell vogt the director of the office of management and budget he's also one of the people behind project twenty twenty five we'll talk with andy kroll about his investigation of vote for propublica and the new yorker i hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews follow us on instagram at nprfreshair fresh air's executive producer is danny miller our technical director and engineer is audrey bentham our managing producer is sam brigger our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by phyllis meyers annmarie baldonado lauren krenzel teresa madden monique nazareth thea chaloner susan yakundi and anna bauman our digital media producer is molly cv nesper our consulting visual producer is hope wilson roberta shorrock directs the show with terry gross i'm tonya moseley.

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