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- [00:01]
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- [00:14]
Terry Gross
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. A new documentary about Paul McCartney, his life after the breakup of the Beatles and the formation of his band Wings is streaming on Amazon Prime Video. The film was made by our guest Morgan Neville. He also directed documentaries about Fred Rogers, Anthony Bourdain and Orson Welles, as well as many prominent musicians and has won an Oscar, Emmy and Grammy. Morgan Neville spoke with Fresh Airs and Marie Boldonado.
- [00:44]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
Chances are Morgan Neville has made a documentary about music that you love. He won the Academy Award for best documentary feature and the Grammy for best music film for 20ft from stardom, his portrait of the backup singers whose voices helped define rock and pop music while remaining largely invisible. His latest film is about one of the most visible musicians, Paul McCartney.
- [01:11]
Paul McCartney (archival audio)
If I hear someone damning Paul McCartney, I tend to agree with them. So when everyone was saying I broke up the Beatles and I was just overbearing and all of that, I kind of bought into it. I thought that's, you know, the kind of bastard I am. It leaves you in this kind of no man's land. But the truth, John had come in one day and said he was leaving the Beatles. He said it's kind of exciting. It's like telling someone you want a divorce.
- [01:54]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
The film man on the Run covers a time in McCartney's life that isn't often the focus. His life around the breakup of the Beatles. He was newly married to Linda McCartney, and he was trying to figure out who he was as a musician and as a person without his partnership with John Lennon, without the band that defined him since he was a teenager. Morgan Neville got access to previously unseen archival footage. We see McCartney in home movies with his young in the remote farmhouse in Scotland where they retreated. We see him working on his early post Beatles songs and on the road and on stage with his new band, Wings. You may think you already know a lot about the Beatles, but chances are you'll still learn from man on the Run, which features new interviews with McCartney, his daughters, John's son, Sean Ono, Lennon and other heavyweights like Mick Jagger. Morgan Neville's other music documentary subjects include Pharrell, Yo Yo Ma, Hank Williams, Bono, Keith Richards and Johnny Cash. Morgan Neville, welcome to FRESH air.
- [02:59]
Terry Gross
Hi.
- [03:00]
Morgan Neville
Great talking to you.
- [03:01]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
Can you tell us about some of the archival materials that you had access to I mean, it's crazy how much rare footage there was. A lot of it never seen before. Some home movies capture very intimate moments.
- [03:13]
Morgan Neville
Yeah. I mean, the good thing is that Paul married a photographer, you know, Linda McCartney. She not only took photos of everything, but they had home movie cameras and they documented a lot of their life. Even though they were living this rural farmer's life in Scotland, they sure took a lot of photos and footage of it. And the texture of that life was just amazing to kind of see what they created and live in that world. And it's part of the decision I made to not have on camera interviews, to do it all with audio, was that the archive was so amazing that I just felt like I could be immersive in it.
- [03:53]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
Right. You had new interviews that you did with people, including Paul McCartney. You spoke to him a bunch of times, but we don't see them on screen. We just see the archival footage. Did anything else go into that decision to keep it audio based?
- [04:09]
Morgan Neville
I mean, a few different things. It's like the two of us talking right now, you know, there's nobody else here. It's just us, you know, and we can have this casual, casual conversation. And it's intimate and it's just different when you put cameras in people's faces. And on top of that, in filmmaking, when you don't have older people looking back on their 50 year younger self, then the film becomes less retrospective and more present tense. So suddenly the film is a time period you're living through and you never break that spell. And I kind of loved what that did in the storytelling. And on top of that, I said to Paul, is there a moment at the very end where we see you today? And he said, I don't want to be an old person in a young person's story. And I thought that was very wise and I couldn't argue with it. So I completely understood.
- [05:10]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
Near the beginning of the film, you put text on the screen that reads, Fall 1969, John quits the Beatles. But nobody knows. Paul disappears. He is 27 years old. And that struck me as something, you know, we have to remind ourselves. The Beatles are the biggest band on the planet, And Paul is 27 years old. They've recorded all the music that is ever gonna be Beatles music by that point. They're such young men.
- [05:38]
Morgan Neville
It's incredible to realize how much they had done by that time. And Paul has only known being a Beatle, I mean, since he was 15. That was his life. So when you go through that, it's Hard to even imagine what it would have been like going through being a beetle. Nobody had ever done it before since. Maybe Elvis, but. But the Beatles and what they did and how they shaped culture, it was just unimaginable before or since. And here he is at 27, and he's the one that wanted to keep the band together. John Lennon says it in the documentary, but Paul's the one that's really kind of pushing to get them to keep making music. And just in 1969, they record Let It Be. But that's January of 69. He gets married. They record Abbey Road in the spring and early summer. It comes out in August. He has a baby, Mary, in August. The Beatles break up in September, and he moves to Scotland by October 1st. So when you're functioning like that and then suddenly you just hit a wall and it's over, there's just a sense of grief. And I think that is absolutely what Paul was dealing with. And that's the moment I wanted to begin the film, you know, which is Paul is just suddenly at a loss to know anything about himself. Who am I if I'm not a Beatle? And now he's a father and a husband. And he says in the first interview he gives with the release of McCartney one, when they ask, what are you going to do now that you're not a Beatle? And he said, my only plan is. And I thought, well, that's a great place to begin a film.
- [07:29]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
Well, Paul ends up being the band member that announces that the band has broken up, even though John was the first person to sort of announce it to the group internally. And he has to do it publicly because he wants to move on, because he wants to make music. And he ends up being the person, like, on paper, that causes the breakup.
- [07:51]
Morgan Neville
Oh, yeah. You know, that was kind of the. The idea that the public had that Paul was the one who sued the other Beatles. And he quit the Beatles, as the headlines say, because he announced it first, even though, you know, John had left the Beatles. But, you know, just the. The PR side of it was a nightmare. And I think Paul hated having to go through that. I mean, this was an incredibly painful period of time, which is why I don't think he's talked about it much.
- [08:23]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
As the band was breaking up, Paul and Linda moved to a small farmhouse in Scotland. Let's hear a little bit from the film, which features archival footage of Paul and Linda singing and descriptions of the farm.
- [08:41]
Paul McCartney (archival audio)
It was just as if we'd been plonked into this New life. And we just had to figure it out.
- [08:48]
Paul McCartney (singing archival audio)
Diddle, I want you back Diddle, I want you back And I said, well,
- [08:53]
Morgan Neville
let's just go get lost, Just get
- [08:55]
Terry Gross
away and go back to the beginning.
- [09:00]
Paul McCartney (archival audio)
We'd had a baby. Mary Linda had a five year old. So I adopted her and I started making music again.
- [09:10]
Paul McCartney (singing archival audio)
She can't be found but love doesn't care.
- [09:16]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
That's a scene from the film man on the Run.
- [09:20]
Morgan Neville
Yeah.
- [09:20]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
So it was at this point where he started writing music again. And what did Paul. From your interviews, what did you learn from Paul about that process? Like him starting to write on his own.
- [09:33]
Morgan Neville
I mean, he had been writing Beatles songs somewhat on his own, but he was writing them for the Beatles. So now he wasn't. Now he was writing them for who? For Paul McCartney. Well, who's Paul McCartney as an artist? And he has an acoustic guitar and an upright piano. And so he's starting to figure this out. And really in the beginning he's just kind of experimenting. He gets a four track machine installed in his house, which now that's very common. It has been for a while, but back then nobody had a four track machine. And Paul would take the microphones and plug them directly into the back of the machine with no mixing board. And he would make these little charts of how to record songs. And sometimes he'd just be improvising and just singing about what his life was, which was his new family, his wife, the farm. And he starts writing all these songs, which, as Paul says in the film, it's the best form of therapy there is. Because song is where you get to understand how you feel. The songs tell you and help you process how you're feeling. And so he ends up putting together this whole batch of songs very casually until at the very end, he has the idea for one more song, which is the song maybe I'm Amazed, which he goes into Abbey Road and does a proper job on. I guess, though he plays all the instruments himself, still at Abbey Road. But I think he knew that song needed special treatment.
- [11:12]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
Well, let's hear a little bit of that song. Here's Maybe I'm amazed maybe I'm amazed
- [11:20]
Paul McCartney (singing archival audio)
the way you love me all the
- [11:23]
Terry Gross
time
- [11:25]
Paul McCartney (singing archival audio)
maybe I'm afraid of the way I love you Baby, I'm amazed the way you play Pulled me out of time you hung me on the line maybe I'm amazed at the way I really need you maybe I'm a man maybe I'm a lonely man who's in the middle of something that he doesn't really understand. Maybe I'm a land Maybe you're the only woman who could ever help me. Maybe won't you you're helping understand.
- [12:19]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
Maybe I'm amazed. From Paul McCartney's solo album released in 1970. What did Paul McCartney tell you about writing this song in particular? I think that there's something in that. In the film.
- [12:31]
Morgan Neville
Yeah. I mean, the song is really a thank you to Linda. And again, it's so interesting because Linda's always been a very two dimensional character in the world because she didn't give many interviews at all. And she was vilified as Yoko was vilified. And it's interesting that John and Paul both marry these very strong women who are artists in their own right. Linda was a photographer who are a little older than them, who are divorced and already have children. And they start making families and music with them. So they become partners because they needed some kind of ballast for themselves. And Linda becomes kind of the center of his life, both as his wife, as a musical collaborator, which is really her role as kind of his first audience.
- [13:31]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
Let's talk about the formation of the band Wings. After playing with Linda, Paul decides to bring in musician Denny Lane and other musicians to start recording. And it seems like Paul wants to be in a band again. You know, he wants to play. And just a reminder that, you know, the last Beatles tour ended in 1966. After that, essentially, they were playing music in studios. So as Paul All Star Wings, instead of playing big stadiums, they go on a bus and tour universities. They would just show up and play.
- [14:04]
Morgan Neville
Yeah, it wasn't even a bus. Oh, yeah, yeah, it was a van. It was a van, you know, with a U Haul trailer with their gear in the back. And they would drive around England and show up at universities and say, you know, we've got Paul McCartney in the car. Do you fancy him playing at lunch? And they wouldn't believe him. And then they'd walk outside and Paul would be sitting in the car and they'd say, okay, yeah, we'll do that. And for 50 pence, students would come and watch Wings. This is the first Wings tour. Now, this is an idea Paul had actually pitched to the Beatles. You know, Paul, I think, more than any of the other Beatles, loved performing and missed performing. It was something that he still loves, he still tours. It just shows that Paul loves that relationship with a live audience. And he feels like that's the ultimate destination of a song, that a song is written privately somewhere. It's recorded, it's listened to, but then when it's delivered face to face with an audience, that's its final place. So Paul's the one that from the beginning is thinking, how do I start playing again? And touring with the Beatles at the end was impossible. They were playing for stadiums of screaming girls and they couldn't hear themselves. You know, it was just. It was madness. So, you know, Paul gradually puts a band together, largely because he needs a band to perform with, and just starts playing slightly larger venues. You know, he's getting offers from the beginning to go play Madison Square Garden, but he's playing small theaters in England and Europe. And he, for years avoids going back to America because he knows America is kind of the. The place where it has to be fully actualized. You know, whatever his band is and whatever this tour is, it has to be. It has to be big. And so he spends years kind of building back towards that point, but by
- [16:01]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
starting at, like, bar university level first. Working it out there.
- [16:07]
Morgan Neville
Exactly. And, you know, so he starts Wings, you know, with Denny Lane, who had been in the Moody Blues, who he knew, and a couple other musicians, Denny Seiwell and Henry McCulloch, who had played with Joe Cocker. And they were a great band, but these guys initially thought, oh, we're going to be in Paul McCartney's new band. And Paul kept saying, I'm just going to be the bass player and we're all going to be in it together. And so they end up moving up to his farm in Scotland and hanging out with sheep and kind of living this rural life. And Paul's resisting playing big shows for a long time. And it's part of what starts to cause the friction in Wings right from the beginning.
- [16:55]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
The 1973 Wings album, Band on the Run, is more successful and causes the band to tour the world. It's a different lineup at this point, but Wings becomes a touring band and Paul starts performing for large numbers of people. And, you know, I can imagine being Beatles fan in the 70s, wanting to hear Paul play Beatles songs at a Wing show and then being disappointed to not hear any because, you know, when they first started, he wasn't doing. But eventually he did start playing them. Here's another scene from the documentary with a bit of a news broadcast at the time and then an interview with Paul.
- [17:34]
News Reporter (archival audio)
The McCartney show is getting two encore calls a night, and the highlight, every concert is yesterday. At one time in Wings tours, Paul refused to do any Beatles songs. Now, with most of the legal Troubles behind him, McCartney was comfortable selecting Beatles tunes for The Wings show, I'll tell
- [17:54]
Martin Johnson
you the truth, it was too painful.
- [17:56]
Paul McCartney (archival audio)
It was too much of a kind of trauma. It was like reliving a sort of weird dream, doing a Beatle tune.
- [18:04]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
That's a scene from the film Band on the Run. It's interesting what Paul says there about playing Beatles songs. I don't know if that's a new interview or an archival one, but I was wondering what Paul says about that transition now.
- [18:18]
Morgan Neville
Yeah, I mean, it was. That is an archival interview that Paul, not just in the live shows, which he doesn't do Beatles songs for a while. Then finally when they're doing the big global tour in the mid-70s, he puts in a handful of Beatles songs in the middle of the set, which people are all just waiting for, dying to hear those songs played live. But, you know, Paul is consciously trying not to do Beatles music, Beatles sounding music, particularly in his first few records, self consciously taking songs that sound too much like the Beatles and changing them or not recording them. So he's running away from that shadow. He's trying to find distance. And that's why I called the film man on the Run. It's a shadow you can't escape from, but it's something that he feels like he has no choice but to try and find that separation. And I think what you see in the documentary also is that every concert, every interview, all people are wondering is, are the Beatles going to get back together? Would you ever play another show? Would you make more music? People are still just comparing everything constantly to the Beatles. Even when Paul goes to play for a couple of nights in Madison Square Garden every night they're having live Beatles broadcasts. Will John show up? I mean, on the hour it is a news story that people just can't accept wings as wings. They are always going to measure it against the Beatles. And for Paul, hugely frustrating saying can't I prove myself on my own? You know, and it's just something that he grapples with throughout the entire decade until everything changes.
- [20:17]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
Well, let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. My guest is Oscar, Grammy and Emmy award winning documentary filmmaker Morgan Neville. His new documentary is called Paul man on the run about Paul McCartney after the breakup of the Beatles. More after breakfast. This is FRESH air. I think the public always felt so invested in Paul McCartney and John Lennon's relationship. And people often have the opinion that during the 70s, John and Paul were at odds. But your film complicates that and reminds people that they were in touch throughout this time, Yeah.
- [20:56]
Morgan Neville
I mean, they were both at odds, but also connected, I think, obviously, at the beginning of the 70s, they're all just trying to separate, so there's a distance. They all want to feel the distance. And of course, then with the business troubles, they are just increasingly tense with each other, certainly in the press, always trying to pit them against each other. And Paul writes a song called Too Many People on Ram, which has some kind of veiled references to people preaching practices and kind of talking maybe about John's kind of lecturing and his kind of political activism in a way that's maybe too much. And John comes back with a song called how do youo Sleep? Which is Not Veiled, which is a very harsh, you know, almost kind of character assassination song. And, you know, saying, the only thing you did was yesterday, you know, and it's. It's tough. But then you see even at that moment, that there's still just almost, you know, fighting like brothers. I used several clips in the film where even when they're fighting, John refers to Paul as his best friend or as his brother. That they had this connection that allowed them to do that, and they would still, particularly as the business stuff started to settle down, they would get together more and more. Paul always had this deep connection to John, which I saw. I didn't know how Paul would be talking about John, and he loved talking about John, you know, in fact, when I went to Paul's house for one of the interviews, I was let in into his house, and he. They said, he'll be back in a while. And so I'm just kind of looking around Paul's living room.
- [23:06]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
You're standing in Paul McCartney's living room?
- [23:08]
Morgan Neville
Yeah, by myself. And I look on the wall and there's a drawing by John. And Paul comes in and I said, I just noticed you've got this John drawing. He said, oh, let me show you something. And we go in the hallway and there are many drawings by John. And he said, I was sitting across from John when he drew some of these, and I just felt like this would be a good home for them here. And he just was staring at them with such love that I got the chills, you know, that, you know, John was his best friend and will always be his best friend. And so to talk about John is to keep him alive and keep him in his heart. And, you know, I think the complication of it is something that all of us try and unpack, but it's something that underneath, everything has to be loved.
- [24:08]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
You Interview Paul's daughters and John's son, Sean, and they talk in touching ways about those years and how they would get together. Can you share some of the things that you learned from those interviews?
- [24:22]
Morgan Neville
Yeah, that, you know, their memory of visiting each other. You know, the times that the families got together were very warm. You know, Mary, Paul's daughter, talks about going to visit the Lennon Onos at the Dakota and how warm it was. You know, Sean told me stories, even other stories that aren't even in the film, just about times, even later, when Paul and Linda would come, and particularly how Linda was such a. You know, Paul and Yoko obviously had history at times, but how Linda was the one who could always make it smooth and loving and remind them of that. But I think that stage of their relationship was something that meant a lot to them. I mean, Paul has told the story many times that later on, when John was not recording music in the late 70s and kind of becoming the house husband, that they would talk about baking bread and very domestic kinds of things. And John had a new young son at that point. And so I think being fathers, being older, some of those frictions just melted away.
- [25:51]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
There was often criticism of Paul's solo albums and his work with Wings, but there's also a sweet moment when Sean Lennon talks about how worn copy in their House of McCartney's first solo album was. So even though you also feature in the documentary footage of John publicly maybe criticizing or saying that the music could be better, Sean, in an interview with you, reveals that actually the album got a lot of play in their house.
- [26:23]
Morgan Neville
Yeah. Which I love that detail, and I'm sure of it. And vice versa for Paul. With John's music, I think they were always paying attention to what they were doing. Otherwise you see people asking John about Wings albums, and John becomes more generous with time and understanding. He knows Paul's a musical genius, that he has the capability of writing great music.
- [26:52]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
Yeah. I mean, one thing that's for sure throughout the documentaries, like, how prolific he is, it's crazy. It's almost like he just needs to. It's like constantly coming out of him.
- [27:04]
Morgan Neville
Yeah. I mean, he puts out 10 records in 10 years, but on top of that, he's doing all kinds of side projects. I mean, he is somebody who needs to be doing something. I asked him about it, you know, I said, are you a workaholic? And what he said to me is, well, you don't work music, you play it. So I think I'm a playaholic. And I think that's true. I mean, to this day, Paul McCartney's probably making music today and every day. I mean, that's what he still does because that's how he expresses himself. And I get that. If I was Paul McCartney, I'd make music every day, too.
- [27:47]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
My guest is documentary filmmaker Morgan Neville. His new documentary is called man on the run, about Paul McCartney after the breakup of the Beatles. More after a break. This is FRESH air.
- [27:59]
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- [28:33]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
The film also covers Paul's first public reaction to the murder of John Lennon in 1980, which is something that was misinterpreted maybe at the time. Can you talk about that?
- [28:46]
Morgan Neville
Yeah. I mean, the kind of public perception of it was that Paul had been kind of confronted by news crews on the sidewalk in London the night after John had been killed. And Paul had just come out of his studio and they're saying, what do you think? And it's his first public statement. And he says, it's terrible. It's a drag, isn't it? And then he gets in a car and leaves. The headlines in the newspaper the next day in England were it's a drag, says McCartney about Lennon's murder. And it's perceived widely as very insensitive. In the documentary, Stella, Paul's daughter, told me a story I've never heard of Paul actually getting the call that morning from America about John's death and the biggest reaction she had ever seen, and him walking outside and just being emotionally devastated. And then we see the footage of the news crew footage and and Sean then unpacks it in this very kind of loving way of kind of understanding that Paul, like all of them, like the world, was completely in shock and unable to process just the tragedy of it. I mean, I think it took Paul many, many, many years to process that loss. I mean, I think for everybody, even for myself. But Sean then says for him, for all of them, it was the real growing up moment. It was the moment where nothing would ever be the same again. And it wasn't. I Mean, it's why I chose to end the film. There is. I think Paul completely changes at that moment. I think the Paul McCartney of today begins at that moment in a way that no longer is Paul running away from his past and trying to reconcile who he is as a solo artist or his Wings or as the Beatles. He can just be Paul. And from that moment on, Wings are no more. He never records or tours with him again. He starts recording as Paul McCartney starts working with George Martin again and Ringo and just kind of embraces all of it. And he doesn't have to create a wall between himself and that past.
- [31:19]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
We're talking about how he obviously hadn't processed the information in that moment when he's interviewed. But it's like 35 years later, no, 45 years later. And in some of the interviews you did with him, it seems like he's
- [31:35]
Morgan Neville
still processing it, without a doubt. I mean, I think in a way, Paul making this documentary was a way of coming to terms with that whole period, because I think he had buried a lot of his feelings about this period just because they were painful. And I think putting the film together, talking about it and having these deep conversations about it, and then watching what other people said about it, and I'm sure for him hearing what Sean said about it and understanding where Paul was in that moment is so kind of so loving that I know this film makes Paul emotional because I've seen it and he's told me that. And showing him the film for the first time, he was very emotional and very touched. And. And then he keeps watching it. Almost immediately he said, I want to show it to my whole family. And so he arranged this screening with his entire family, including his grandchildren, all the grandchildren, extended family, friends. He invited me and my family, and it was an incredible, incredible night because we screen the film and I'm sitting behind all the grandchildren, and one of them says, I've never heard my grandmother's voice before, meaning Linda, which I just found so touching. And then one of the other grandchildren said later, I didn't know Grandpa went to jail, because I guess they don't talk about Paul's Japanese pot bust around the family reunions. But again, I feel like what he went through in that decade was hard to explain. And I think this film helps Paul explain it, even to people he loves.
- [33:41]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
Can I ask a little bit about your next film? A documentary called Lorne, about Lorne Michaels, the creator, mastermind behind Saturday Night Live and so much other comedy. You produced a documentary series about SNL last year to mark the 50th anniversary. And for SNL fans, or even just casual fans, they're great documentaries that break down the audition process, casting process, what goes into writing the show. That series is wonderful and features so many interviews with cast members and staff, but the new doc is about Lorne himself. How did that film come about?
- [34:21]
Morgan Neville
It's interesting. I've not talked about this at all because it hasn't come out yet, but I'll tell you that I met with Lorne about several years ago, and knowing a couple years before the 50th anniversary that they wanted to do some documentary kind of thing, Lauren said, think about it. And very quickly I said, well, what you should do is a series of different films. You know, rather than trying to kind of chapterize the story of SNL or just do endless clip shows, like, they've done that. They've done that a lot. I said, well, why don't we make standalone little films? And he said, okay, why don't you come to New York on a show week next week and pitch me? So I think I'm going into a meeting with Lorne Michaels at Saturday Night Live, and I walk into his office, and there are 15 people in there, and it's all the senior writers and senior producers at Saturday Night Live. And he said, okay, Morgan, you've got some ideas. Tell us. And so suddenly, I'm pitching a room of people who are very used to being pitched ideas, right?
- [35:35]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
That's their norm.
- [35:36]
Morgan Neville
That's their norm. Yeah. And like, you know, I'm not Will Ferrell, so I'm like, okay. And I go and I pitch a bunch of ideas, and I got like a dozen ideas, and one of them is a documentary about Lorne. But anyway, I finished this pitching, really for like, 20 minutes. I go. And at the end of it, I sit down and nobody says a word. And I turn to Lorne and say, what do you think? And he turns to one of the producers who looks like she does not want to be called upon, and he says, caroline, what do you think? She said, well, I thought there were some good ideas. And then there's some small talk. And then the meeting is adjourned, and I walk out, and I turn to one of his producers and say, what just happened? He said, oh, no. He thought it was great. And so I had that story I've heard all the cast members say about did I get the job or not? But. But once we actually got into what the films would be, he said he was open to doing A Lorne documentary. But I said, if I'm going to do the Lorne documentary, it can't be part of this project and you can't have anything to do with it. So we kind of separated it from the herd, from those other documentaries, and it kind of grew into this bigger feature that I'm doing with Focus Features, and it's coming out in April. But, you know, and I'm very. I'm very proud of that film. I mean, it could not be more different from the Paul McCartney film, but that's kind of what I like. I'm kind of a method director where I'm trying to have the subject tell me how to tell the story, you know, aesthetically and emotionally and in every other way. And Lorne, it's about trying to make a film about the wizard of Oz.
- [37:37]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
Well, you know, a Man on the Run has such great archival footage. Can you give us a preview about some of the kinds of footage that you have for Lorne?
- [37:49]
Morgan Neville
So there's great kind of early footage and everything else, but the thing that really was working the best was just being allowed to shadow him more and being in the meetings and understanding how the sausage is made and understanding how does somebody like Lorne, how's he blasted 50 plus years now, like, you know, what is it that he's doing or seeing? And I think the film does really capture Lorne in a way that makes you understand something deeply about who he is and his perspective on culture. But it's so different because Paul is such an intimate story. And I feel like the Lauren story starts as a nature documentary where he's this rare bird I'm trying to film, and he's constantly escaping me, and I'm just trying to get a little closer and a little closer. And that was the experience of making the film over a couple of years, was just building up enough trust to get closer and closer, to finally kind of get a glimpse of what's inside
- [38:57]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
Lorne in his natural habitat.
- [38:59]
Morgan Neville
Exactly.
- [39:01]
Interviewer (possibly Anne Marie Boldonado)
I can't wait for that one. Morgan Neville, thank you so much for talking with us.
- [39:07]
Morgan Neville
Absolutely. Great talking to you.
- [39:09]
Terry Gross
Morgan Neville spoke with Fresh Air's Anne Marie Boldonado. His documentary, man on the Run, is available on Amazon Prime Video. His next documentary, Lorne, about Lorne Michaels, comes out next month. After we take a short break, Our jazz critic Martin Johnson will review a newly discovered 1982 concert recording by Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers. It's been released as an album titled Strasbourg 82. This is FRESH AIR. Long before jazz Studies were a staple in many college curricula. Drummer Art Blakey ran one of the most prestigious and demanding universities of jazz. His band. Alumni of his groups, from Wayne shorter in the 50s to Wynton Marsalis in the 80s, could fill the programs for a week's worth of all star concerts. Blakey's 1982 band, which formed shortly after both Wynton and his brother Branford Marsalis left, is less celebrated. But a newly discovered concert recording makes a case for its greatness. That live recording has been released as an album titled Strasbourg 82. Jazz critic Martin Johnson says you can hear the maturation of the players and the growth of the band.
- [40:50]
Martin Johnson
There have been so many extraordinary iterations of Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers that some remarkable additions have tended to get overlooked. I think that's the case with the 1982 band. Yet like most Blakey bands, it featured future stars. In this case, trumpeter Terrence Blanchard, who was lately found renowned as an opera composer, and alto saxophonist Donald Harrison, who's become an elder statesman of traditional New Orleans music. The band featured some stellar players whose renowned, never transcended jazz aficionado circles, like pianist Johnny o' Neil heard there on the opening track, and here's a bit of his Sol. By the early 80s, the messengers had been an institution for decades, and the new players could create their sound from the lineage of their instruments. Here on the Benny Golson classic Along Came Betty, we can hear Blanchard echoing legendary predecessors Freddie Hubbard and Lee Morgan with just a hint of 70s Blakey stalwart Woody Shaw. And we can hear the band increase the urgency of the tune. Originally a springtime walk in the park, it's now a chilly rush hour. Comm.
- [42:28]
Paul McCartney (singing archival audio)
Sam.
- [43:02]
Martin Johnson
Jazz was changing in the early 80s, and this band reflected some of the changes. The Messengers were still a paragon of soulful, hard popping jazz, but they were looking in new directions, and they found it with 81, a staple of Miles Davis second quintet. It's looser and more laid back, but a good fit for tenor saxophone's Billy Pierce, who likely grew up loving those Davis bands. I heard this particular band a lot. I graduated college in 1982, and with rent for my Manhattan apartment a mere $140, I had time to immerse myself in the jazz scene. Blakey was everywhere. Downtown jazz clubs, uptown hangouts, outdoor shows. Today's virtuosos must marvel at the itinerary. It meant that the band could shadowbox on Blakey war horses like Blues March and Monin and fight the past to a draw. Those tunes were crowd pleasers, but the real fun was in the newer wrinkles. Strasbourg 82 shows that the Blakey bands never stop pushing the envelope.
- [44:46]
Terry Gross
Martin Johnson writes for the Wall Street Journal and downbeat. He reviewed Strasbourg 82, featuring a newly discovered 1982 live recording by Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers. Tomorrow on FRESH Air, our guest will be actor Delroy Lindo. He's earned his first Oscar nomination after 50 years in film and theater for his role as a blues musician in Ryan Coogler's film Sinners. I hope you'll join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram P R FRESH air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Reboldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital producer is Molly, Sivi Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.