'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs

Summary

Fresh Air: 'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs

Release Date: April 11, 2025

In this engaging episode of NPR's award-winning program Fresh Air, hosts Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley delve deep into the fourth season of the critically acclaimed HBO Max series "Hacks." The episode features insightful conversations with key figures behind the show: Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, and Paul W. Downs. As the characters Deborah Vance and Ava embark on new professional ventures, the interviews explore the intricate dynamics of comedy, generational clashes, and the creative processes driving the series forward.

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Jean Smart on Portraying Deborah Vance

Jean Smart reprises her role as Deborah Vance, the seasoned Las Vegas stand-up comic navigating the challenges of aging in a rapidly evolving comedy landscape. Smart reflects on her character's journey from declining career to becoming the first female host of a major late-night show. Her portrayal balances humor with depth, highlighting the tension between traditional comedy and contemporary sensibilities.

Notable Quotes:

• On Favorite Jokes:
  Jean Smart (04:03): “I love that joke where Deborah talks about getting a buzz cut and accepting Melissa Etheridge's dinner invite. It's a perfect blend of risqué humor and character insight.”

• On Generational Conflict in Comedy:
  Jean Smart (05:08): “Deborah's attitude reflects Ava's generation throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They aim to shock rather than craft clever jokes, making their interactions both humorous and poignant.”

Smart discusses her preparation for the role, including the emotional impact of embodying Deborah. She describes a moment of vulnerability when seeing her transformed appearance for the character:

Jean Smart (09:45): “When I looked in the mirror after my first costume and hair change, I burst into tears. It was a collaboration that brought Deborah to life authentically.”

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Hannah Einbinder on Bringing Ava to Life

Hannah Einbinder plays Ava, the young, transgressive comedy writer whose fresh perspective challenges Deborah's established comedic style. Einbinder shares her journey from stand-up comedy to her breakthrough role in "Hacks," emphasizing the importance of injecting personal humor into her character.

Notable Quotes:

• On Auditioning and Writing Jokes:
  Hannah Einbinder (25:35): “I added my own jokes during auditions because the material was so strong. It was a way to connect deeply with the character and the show’s essence.”

• On Learning from Jean Smart:
  Hannah Einbinder (28:14): “Working with Jean Smart was an education in itself. Her meticulous approach to blocking and continuity taught me to be sharper and more intentional in my performances.”

Einbinder also addresses fan interactions and the creative boundaries of her character:

Hannah Einbinder (30:02): “Fans love to fantasize about relationships between Ava and Deborah, but it's crucial to stay true to the characters and focus on their professional growth.”

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Paul W. Downs on Creating "Hacks"

Paul W. Downs, co-creator, co-writer, and actor on "Hacks," offers a behind-the-scenes look at the inception and evolution of the series. Downs discusses the show's origins, rooted in conversations about the disparities faced by female comedians and the fine line between edgy and hacky humor.

Notable Quotes:

• On the Origin of "Hacks":
  Paul W. Downs (33:28): “During a road trip in 2015, we were talking about our favorite female comedians and how many never received the same opportunities as their male counterparts. That conversation sparked the idea for 'Hacks.'”

• On Addressing Cancel Culture:
  Paul W. Downs (35:15): “We wanted to tackle cancel culture head-on, especially as it relates to comedy. Balancing humor with meaningful commentary was essential to making the show both funny and thought-provoking.”

Downs elaborates on the delicate approach the writers take to incorporate real-world issues without compromising the show’s comedic integrity:

Paul W. Downs (36:49): “We lead with comedy to create a platform where deeper issues can be explored naturally through the characters' interactions.”

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Exploring Themes and Character Dynamics

The interviews collectively highlight the central themes of "Hacks," including the generational clash in comedy styles, the resilience required to sustain a career in entertainment, and the nuanced portrayal of female empowerment in a male-dominated industry. The dynamic between Deborah and Ava serves as a microcosm for broader societal conversations about respect, innovation, and adaptability.

Jean Smart (05:22) emphasizes the enduring nature of Deborah’s character: “Deborah is someone who evolves. She’s not a hack; she’s a talented comedian willing to adapt and grow.”

Hannah Einbinder (28:52) discusses her comedic upbringing: “Humor was the main language in my home, a love language. It shaped how I approach comedy and storytelling.”

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Conclusion: The Continued Success of "Hacks"

As "Hacks" embarks on its fourth season, the collaborative efforts of Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, and Paul W. Downs ensure that the series remains both relevant and entertaining. Their shared commitment to authentic character development and meaningful humor underscores the show's enduring appeal and critical acclaim.

Paul W. Downs (36:50): “If we have the opportunity to make people laugh while making them think, then we've achieved something special with 'Hacks.'”

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This Fresh Air episode offers a comprehensive exploration of "Hacks," providing listeners with a deeper understanding of the show's creative process and the stellar performances that drive its success. Whether you're a longtime fan or new to the series, the discussions presented offer valuable insights into the art of modern comedy and storytelling.

Transcript

[Commercial Voiceover]

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[David Biancooli]

More money in your wallet with no.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank for details. Capital One NA member FDIC.

[David Biancooli]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Biancooley. Hacks, the very funny TV series about an older Vegas style stand up comic and the generational differences between her and her younger comedy writer returned to HBO Max last night for its fourth season. Today we feature our interviews with Gene Smart, who stars as Deborah Vance, the older comic, with Hannah Einbinder, who plays her young comedy writer Ava, and with Paul W. Downs, who co created, co writes and co stars as their talent manager, Jimmy. As the new season begins, Deborah and Ava are embarking on new jobs. Deborah as the first female host of a big three network late night show and Ava as her head writer. It's a job she got by defying Deborah, which changes their dynamic dramatically. Deborah makes that clear on day one when she walks unannounced into Ava's new office.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Well, aren't you a big brave girl?

[Hannah Einbinder]

I guess I am. It's for the best.

[David Biancooli]

That's what's happening now on Hacks, but let's go back to the beginning and start with Gene Smart, who spoke with Terry Gross when the show premiered on Max in 2021. Smart's comedic timing was obvious in the 1980s sitcom Designing Women and again in the early 2000s when she won two Emmys for her guest starring role on Frasier. More recently, she's played some pretty tough women in the TV series Fargo and Legion and in the HBO crime drama Mayor of Easttown. When Hacks begins, the career of Deborah Vance is in decline. In an attempt to save her career, Jimmy pairs her with a young woman, comedy writer, Ava, whom he also manages. Neither wants to meet with the other, but they do, and Ava reluctantly flies to Vegas to meet with Deborah. At one of their first meetings, Deborah tells Ava the jokes she's written for her aren't funny. Then Deborah asks if Ava is a lesbian. Ava responds that Deborah is her employer, which makes it inappropriate for her to ask. And then Ava goes on to describe in graphic detail her sexual experiences with women and men and concludes by telling Deborah this.

[Hannah Einbinder]

So anyway, I'm by Jesus Christ, I.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Was just wondering why you were dressed like Rachel Maddow's mechanic.

[Paul W. Downs]

Great.

[Hannah Einbinder]

So the jokes, you didn't like any?

[Commercial Voiceover]

They're not jokes. I mean, they're like thought poems. I had a horrible nightmare that I got a voicemail. What?

[Hannah Einbinder]

It's funny because voicemails are annoying. It's like just text.

[Commercial Voiceover]

First of all, if you start a sentence with it's funny because it is probably not. And second, jokes need a punchline.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Well, in my opinion, traditional joke structure is very male. So focused on the ending. It's all about the climax.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Oh, look who's talking. I just got a TED Talk about yours.

[Terry Gross]

Jean Smart, welcome to FRESH air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. You're terrific in this as you've been.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Thank you.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. For so long. So, you know, you've done a lot of comedy, but this is the first time you've played a comic. Do you have any favorite jokes of the bad jokes that your character tells because they're both funny and bad at the same time?

[Commercial Voiceover]

Oh, sure. You know, I mean, I don't think her jokes as bad necessarily. It's just that, you know, she's sort of got her stock style of jokes that she knows. She knows her audience really well, and she knows what they expect and what they want to hear from her, and she gives them what they pay for. You know, I mean, as risque as she gets is probably the first joke we hear out of her mouth at the very beginning of the show where you can just kind of hear her before we even see her face, where she talks about being in bed with a guy who keeps saying, you know, are you close? Are you close? And she says, yeah, I'm close. I'm close. I'm close to getting a buzz cut, a flannel shirt, and finally accepting Melissa Etheridge's dinner invite. I love that joke.

[Terry Gross]

Are there things you related to about the generational conflict in this? You know, because, you know, the young comic who starts writing for your character thinks of herself as so, like, you know, cutting edge and a little transgressive. And she really has kind of contempt for your character because it represents everything that the younger comic doesn't want to be.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Exactly. Exactly. She thinks I'm a dinosaur, which I am in a way. But Deborah's attitude, I think, is a little bit that Ava's generation has thrown the baby out with the bathwater and that all they want to do is shock people into laughing. And. And that's much easier to do than to come up with something kind of clever that actually makes people laugh, not just out of shock. And so, you know, she it's just sort of funny to watch them, you know, navigate this. They come from completely different worlds or at Least seemingly at first. And Hannah actually is a stand up comic. So I was a little bit intimidated at first. I'm thinking, cause she's playing the writer, I'm playing the comic, and she's an actual stand up comic. Yeah, that's been the fun part is just their conflict and the fact that I just get to abuse her horribly.

[Terry Gross]

You've played like, brassy, cynical, sarcastic women in comedies and in dramas. In Entertainment Weekly, you were described as the reigning Meryl Streep of tough, broad types. So I want to play an example of that. And this is from your role in Fargo, when you played the matriarch of a crime family that controls Fargo, and you've taken over from your husband after he had a debilitating stroke. Meanwhile, the Kansas City mafia made an offer to take over your operation. And in this scene, you meet the gangster representing the Kansas City family and you make a counteroffer, an offer for a partnership between their family and your crime family. So in this scene, you're laying out the terms of your deal and then warn him not to underestimate you. And the mobster from Kansas City is played by Brad Garrett.

[Commercial Voiceover]

You speak first now. I don't know, maybe when you look at me, you see an old woman. And I am 61. I've borne six children, had three miscarriages. Two of my sons are here today. Two were stillborn. My firstborn, Eliran, killed in Korea. Sniper took off half his head. The point is, don't assume just because I'm an old woman that my back is weak and my stomach's not strong. I make this counter because the deal is always better in war. But no mistake, we'll fight to keep with Cyrus to the last man.

[Hannah Einbinder]

You're a good woman. I wish I'd known your husband.

[Commercial Voiceover]

No, my husband would have killed you where you stood the first time you met. So be glad you're talking to his wife.

[Terry Gross]

You must have loved that speech when you read it.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Oh, I did. That was the speech they gave me to audition with for Noah. And I said, that tells me so much about this person.

[Terry Gross]

So I read that initially when you got the part and wardrobe came out and the hairdresser came out, that you looked at yourself in the mirror and you actually burst into tears. What was the problem? What were you seeing in the mirror?

[Commercial Voiceover]

Well, I mean, I was very much. It was very much a collaboration. The costume designer and I had great fun coming up with the sort of less than attractive but very practical wardrobe. And then I suggested with the hair that they give me one of those kind of poodle perms that women of a certain age wore, especially back then. I know my mother did for a while, because they're just less maintenance. So I said, let's just get the blonde out of my hair and cut it shorter and give it a little. Give it a perm. And the first time. But the first time I looked at it, I just. My eyes started welling up. I thought, oh, my God. But I said, it's perfect. There she is. There's Floyd. There she is.

[Terry Gross]

Kate Winslet plays Mayor Sheehan, who's a police detective trying to solve a murder. But there's a lot going on in her personal life. Her son died by suicide, leaving behind his young son, who Mare is raising, because the boy's mother has been in rehab. You're mayor's mother, and you've moved in with Mare to help her raise the grandson, your great grandson. But you and Mary are afraid that you're about to lose custody because the boy's mother is getting out of rehab. You've been trying to prepare him for the likelihood he'll be returning to his mother, and that's made Mare very angry with you because she wants to keep custody. And let's hear a clip in which she's showing how angry she is that you're trying to prepare him to go back to his mother.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Why are you telling him you might have to go live with his mom? Cause he might have to go live with his mom. He's four years old, Mom. We don't know what's gonna happen, all right? Don't be telling him stuff like that. He's lived in this house his entire life, Mom. That's why we need to prepare him. Otherwise, he'll feel like the ground is just fallen out beneath him. I called Kathy Dreyers today. You did what? She works over the Child and Youth Services. I know where Kathy Dryers works. Why the hell are you calling her? Because I want to find out how this whole custody thing works.

[Hannah Einbinder]

It's not your place to call me.

[Commercial Voiceover]

He has a place to stay. Down a line for you to be telling me stuff like that. Mom, she is his mother. She's the mother. She'll get custody, and there's not a damn thing you or I could do about it.

[Hannah Einbinder]

I'll figure something out.

[Commercial Voiceover]

What's there to figure out? Hello? You're not his guardian. I know that, Mom. You don't have to say that. Stay out of it. Okay?

[Terry Gross]

Understand me. Wow. You're really good in this how did you get the part?

[Commercial Voiceover]

They offered it to me. It was lovely. And I said, hbo, Kate Winslet, unless I really hate the part, I'll say yes right now. But I love their relationship because even though it's a bit dysfunctional, I hope that it comes across to the audiences. There is still love and respect there between them. They've been through so much.

[Terry Gross]

So Maraviz Town is set in Delaware County, Pennsylvania, just outside of Philadelphia. And Delaware county has some pretty wealthy neighborhoods and some working class suburbs. You probably saw this, or at least heard about it, that Saturday Night Live did a parody of the accents. Did you see it? Of the accents on the arabistown.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Kate said it to me.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. And she's the one who got the brunt of the. It was hilarious. Of the satire in this. And the premise of the show is that instead of saying murder and daughter, because of the perhaps overly exaggerated Philadelphia accents, it's like mur, mur, mur. I can't even do it right. Mortar and dworder. Yeah, you do it. You do it.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Well, I don't know quite where they were going with some of it, but yes, they called it murder, Dirder, Murder, daughter. But yes, like, one of the examples of that accent is the way they say water. It's water. Like, almost like w o o d e r. You know, give me a glass of water. Water.

[Terry Gross]

So did you have, like an accent coach?

[Commercial Voiceover]

Oh, yes. Now, we had a couple wonderful dialect coaches. Mine was a native from the area and she was extremely helpful. Extremely helpful. And I would put my lines on a loop tape on my phone and just fall asleep listening to it. Sometimes I'd use my right ear, so it would get in the left side of my brain. And sometimes I'd listen with my left ear, so it would get in the right side of my brain and I'd listen to it on the way to work. Because you want it to be as automatic as possible. Because if you're thinking about it while you're doing your lines, then you're not thinking about the right things, which you're supposed to be thinking about or what your character's supposed to be thinking about. That's the hard part of doing an accent. But it's always fun to do, to do accents.

[Terry Gross]

So I'm gonna squeeze in one more clip. This is from Frasier. This is the role that you won two Emmys for, and you're hilarious in this. So for people who don't know this had come Frasier. Frasier is a psychiatrist who has a Radio advice call and show. And you played Lana Lindley, who was one of the most popular and pretty girls in high school. And Frasier had a crush on you. And now, years later, you run into each other at a cafe and you're a fan of his radio show. You hit it off and you end up spending the night together. And this is like Frasier's high school dream come true. And in the morning, you wake up in his bed. You still have a glass of wine on the night table next to you, which you use in the scene I'm about to play to swallow some pills. Later in the scene, you'll hear a reference to that, but you won't be able to see it. And so. So you wake up in the morning together. Things are still dreamy between the two of you until. Okay, here is the scene. You speak first.

[Commercial Voiceover]

I had a wonderful time last night. Me too.

[David Biancooli]

It was like being back in high.

[Paul W. Downs]

School, but with sex.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Don't want this to end. Must warn you, now that I've learned to finally ask you out, I'll be doing a lot more of it. You free this evening? See, there I go already. How about tomorrow night? Somebody stop me? Not me. I wonder what time it is. Oh, 10:00. Oh, crap, I'm late. Is there something I can do? Oh, yeah, make this lousy hangover go away. Hell. Are those aspirin? You know, perhaps I should get you a glass of water for those. Would you prefer sparkling or still? Or not? I see you're fine. Oh, I'm sorry. Did you want to finish this? No, no, you're the guest. Yeah, it's me. I'm running late. Move my 10:30 to 11:30. Just move it to 11:30. I didn't realize you smoked. Oh, yeah, I'm always trying to quit, but my weight just balloons up. I mean, trust me, you don't want to see my ass when I'm off these things. You know, I hate to be a fusspot, but I prefer. Yeah, well, who let the dog in? Put your brother on. Put your brother on. Put your brother on. Oh, will you be a sweetie? Make me some coffee. Okay, well, you know, that mess better be cleaned up by the time I get home. Both of you. Put your brother on. Put your brother on. Put your brother on the phone. Oh, this is nice.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, you're so good in it. What do you think about when you hear that back?

[Commercial Voiceover]

Oh, it was so much fun. That was the first episode I did as that character, and it was my favorite one.

[Terry Gross]

Did it say in the script get louder every time you say, put your brother on. Or was that something you just figured out you should do?

[Commercial Voiceover]

I think I just assumed that that's.

[Terry Gross]

What it would be.

[Commercial Voiceover]

I have women coming up to me in supermarkets saying, oh, my God, that's me. That's me. Oh, my God. Oh, dear. Okay. People still come up and say, put your brother on the phone.

[Terry Gross]

You were so good in that scene. They brought you back for another season, and that was the second season that you won an Emmy for that role. So you grew up in Seattle, right where Frasier was set. How did you get interested in acting?

[Commercial Voiceover]

I had a terrific drama teacher my last year in high school. His name was Earl Kelly. He was kind of locally famous because he put on particularly good shows and musicals and things at our high school. And so then I took the class my senior year, and he was great. He was tough. I mean, he taught us. He treated us like we were a professional acting troupe. Expected a lot from us. He hated the fact that I was a cheerleader. He thought that was just appalling. But he liked me. And so I really got bitten by the bug. So I told my parents that I wanted to major in theater in college, and my mother was not too happy with me. But after I started doing some plays at the University of Washington, she became my biggest fan, my biggest supporter.

[Terry Gross]

When you were getting started, what were some of your day jobs?

[Commercial Voiceover]

You mean after I got out of college? I'm embarrassed to say. Never had another day job.

[Terry Gross]

You were able to make a living acting right from the start?

[Commercial Voiceover]

Yeah, it wasn't much of a living, but, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

How'd you do that?

[Commercial Voiceover]

Well, there's a lot of professional theater in Seattle. And between Seattle and the Oregon Shakespeare Festival in Ashland, Oregon, where I would do summers, I managed to just get by. You know, you'd always think, oh, geez, I don't know if I have next month's rant, but something would come along.

[Terry Gross]

Did you go through any fallow periods where you thought, I'm never going to get a role again?

[Commercial Voiceover]

The only time that springs to mind that that happened ironically was after Fargo. I, you know, got great reviews. The show was a big hit. I think I won the Critics Choice Award for the. For that role. And crickets.

[Terry Gross]

Why?

[Commercial Voiceover]

I. I shouldn't say this, but I think. I think it was. It was because of the way I looked. And all of a sudden, it was sort of like, oh, dear, now she's an older woman, and now what do we do with her? And I don't know, I mean, literally, not a meeting, not an audition, not an offer for a long time. But once it started again, it's just been, you know, a steady climb towards wonderful. I mean, I mean, I just can't. I'm extremely grateful.

[David Biancooli]

Gene Smart speaking with Terry Gross in 2021. Season 4 of Hacks has begun streaming this week on HBO Max. After a break, we'll hear from two other stars of Hacks, Hannah Einbinder and series co creator Paul W. Downs. And Justin Chang reviews Warfare, a new film based on actual exploits of U.S. navy SEALs. I'm David Biancooli and this is FRESH AIR.

[Commercial Voiceover]

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[Terry Gross]

Federal funding helps us fulfill our mission to create a more informed public and.

[Commercial Voiceover]

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[Terry Gross]

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[David Biancooli]

Let's continue our show about Hacks, the award winning HBO Max comedy series which began its fourth season this week. Hannah Einbinder plays Ava, the young writer teamed reluctantly with veteran female comic Deborah, played by Jean Smart. In real life, Einbinder is a stand up comic who had her own comedy special on HBO Max last year. She's the daughter of Lorraine Newman, an original cast member of Saturday Night Live. Terry Gross spoke with Hannah Einbinder last year. Let's listen to a clip from season three of Hacks. With Ava's help, Jean Smart's character of Debra is making a comeback and is in line to be offered the job she always wanted, hosting a popular late night TV show. She's about to be given an honorary degree and is at a party on the college campus when she finds out a video has gone viral, stringing together some of her jokes from years ago, jokes that now are considered insensitive and problematic. Ava, played by Hannah Einbinder, is by her side. Jean Smart's character, Deborah, speaks first.

[Commercial Voiceover]

I can't believe this is happening now.

[Hannah Einbinder]

I know. It's really bad timing.

[Commercial Voiceover]

I finally get an ounce of relevance. I'm this close. I just want to take it away from me again, I'm sorry to say.

[Hannah Einbinder]

This, but, I mean, you're not the only victim here.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Oh. Oh, really? Who's the other victim? Someone who was offended by a joke.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Many jokes.

[Commercial Voiceover]

I'm sorry. People are too easily offended. Now, if you don't like a joke, don't laugh. They're not. This is insane. Me, I am being taken down by a liberal mob. Me, who was the first person to be fined by the FCC for saying the word abortion on tv. Why come after me? Hey, hey.

[Hannah Einbinder]

This is not a value judgment on your entire being.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Oh, really?

[Hannah Einbinder]

They're just upset about some mistakes.

[Commercial Voiceover]

You made jokes. I made jokes that everybody was doing at the time.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Yes, and the jokes were hurtful. Both things can be true. You get to be rich and famous for making jokes, and people are allowed to have their reactions to them. I mean, why not use your comedian brain to fight through your defensiveness and think outside of yourself? Isn't that what good comedy? Why don't you just apologize?

[Terry Gross]

Okay. That scene was set at a fraternity party on the campus. Hannah Einbinder, welcome to Fresh Air. How did you get the part on Hacks? With no previous acting experience? You'd done sketch comedy. You did a great set on the Stephen Colbert show right before the pandemic lockdown. So how did you pull that off?

[Hannah Einbinder]

Well, yeah, I went in with the rest of the. With all the eligible ladies in the land. I went into a casting office, like, first round, early days on it, and I. You know, what ultimately did it in the end was I added jokes in my audition. Every step of the way, I would add my own jokes.

[Terry Gross]

So you punched up the script you were given?

[Hannah Einbinder]

Yeah, a perfect script that needed no punch up, might I add. But I did just, you know. Cause it was so funny. And when something is such a quality piece of work for me, it's so easy to kind of spitball off of that. So I just loved the material and I had ideas for it, and so I just added jokes along the way. And I did about three auditions. My first one was, like, several days before the initial COVID lockdown and then months went by, and I did my callback on Zoom. And again, in that callback, I added several jokes. And I also added that Ava would vape after a punchline. I bought a vape and I hid it in the. I smoked it in the callback.

[Terry Gross]

What was the scene that you were given to audition, and did they keep the jokes that you wrote in the actual TV series?

[Hannah Einbinder]

They did. And the audition scenes were the first scene where we meet my character in her manager Jimmy's office, and she's, you know, on the verge talking about wanting to jump out the window, and she's just been, you know, canceled, if you will. And then the other scene is the interview scene between Ava and Deborah when they first meet.

[Terry Gross]

So can you give an example of a joke you wrote that they kept.

[Hannah Einbinder]

In the audition scene, the one between Gene and I?

[Terry Gross]

And just to set it up, you both have the same agent. It's the son of the person who was originally Gene Smart's agent.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

The older agent died. His son represents your character and Smart's character, and he kind of finagles things to get you to go to Gene Smart's house to audition, but he never tells Gene Smart that, so he thinks they could get off to a terrible start.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Yes. I added just some color to the initial interview scene between Ava and Deborah. I added that Ava, the line was that she flew all the way here, and I added on spirit.

[Terry Gross]

Right. Okay, that's fine.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Airlines. And I think I.

[Terry Gross]

Cause you're talking about the effort you went to to get here, and now she's just rejecting you without even talking to you yet.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Yeah. There was also a line I said, who's your decorator? Melania Trump? She has this sort of very baroque style going on, sort of Versace palace vibes.

[Terry Gross]

Did you learn a lot about acting by working with Jean Smart?

[Hannah Einbinder]

Oh, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Was it mostly by example, or did she give you actual tips?

[Hannah Einbinder]

It was very much by example. She's really so gifted, naturally. And also technically, you know, when it comes to the very meticulous blocking work and continuity. And, you know, I picked up the pen on this line, just things like that. She's very sharp, and she's very on it. And I have tried to absorb as much as I can.

[Terry Gross]

So, you know, your mother is Lorraine Newman, one of the original cast members of Saturday Night Live. When you were growing up, was being funny something that was really prized or rewarded by Your parents?

[Hannah Einbinder]

Certainly 100%, yeah. I think it was the main currency in our home. And, you know, my Parents are both tough laughs. So I had to do a lot to get what I wanted, you know, to do, like, a lot to get a big response from them. And, yeah, it's like, it is a love language for sure. And that was definitely my experience growing up.

[Terry Gross]

Do you feel like you learned how to take something really awful that happened to you and tell a funny story about it? Like, turn, turn, like, bad things into comedy?

[Hannah Einbinder]

Yeah. I mean, I think that might just be a product of being Jewish, but.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, it's also, it also could be.

[Hannah Einbinder]

It's also, it's also my specific upbringing, for sure. Yeah.

[David Biancooli]

Hannah Einbinder co stars in the HBO Max series Hacks. She spoke with Terry Gross last year. Here's Einbinder on the Late show with Stephen Colbert. He asked her about the possibility of a romantic relationship between her character and Jean. Smarts on Hacks, apparently something a lot of fans want.

[Hannah Einbinder]

I don't think it's gonna happen. And that's the truth. And again, like, I want you to express yourself in the fan fiction, and that is beautiful. We're not gonna. We're not go. And we need to focus up because I will post on Instagram like, hey, guys, we all need to support SB222 to make polluters pay for climate disasters. And everybody sign the petition right now. And I'll get like 16 replies that are like, make them kiss. I'm like, girls, we gotta focus. We gotta focus. Cause there's no kissing on a dead planet. You know what I'm saying?

[David Biancooli]

Coming up, Paul W. Downs, who plays Jimmy Downs, also co created and co writes the show. This is FRESH air.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Oh, hey there.

[Hannah Einbinder]

I'm Brittany Luce, and I don't know.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Maybe this is a little out of pocket to say, but I think you should listen to my podcast.

[Hannah Einbinder]

It's called It's Been a Minute, and I love it. And I think you will, too. Over the past couple months, over 100,000.

[Commercial Voiceover]

New listeners started tuning in. Find out why. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today. Hey, it's A. Martinez. Even as the host of a news show, it can be hard to keep up with the headlines. That is why we make the up first podcast every morning. In under 15 minutes, we cover three major stories with context and analysis from.

[Justin Chang]

Reporters around the world.

[Commercial Voiceover]

So you can catch up on Lo Quetta Pasando while getting ready, making desayuno, or going to work. So listen to the Upverse podcast from npr.

[Paul W. Downs]

Having news at your fingertips is great.

[Commercial Voiceover]

But sometimes you need an escape. And that's where Short Wave comes in. We're a joy filled science podcast driven by wonder and curiosity that will get you out of your head and in touch with the world around you. Listen now to Short Wave, the science podcast from npr.

[David Biancooli]

Paul W. Downs co, created, co writes and co stars in Hacks. Playing the talent manager Jimmy, he created Hacks with his comedy partners, his wife Lucia Uniello, and their friend and collaborator, Jen Statsky. Downes and Unyello also direct many of the episodes. Before creating Hacks, the trio worked on the Comedy Central show Broad City, in which Downs also co. Starred. Paul W. Downs spoke with Anne Marie Baldonado last year. Let's hear another clip from the very first episode of Hacks. Jimmy is fielding a call from his big client, Deborah, played by Jean Smart. She's in danger of losing part of her Las Vegas residency. By the way, Downs won an Emmy for writing this episode.

[Paul W. Downs]

Deborah, perfect timing. How are you?

[Commercial Voiceover]

My favorite client, Marty, wants to cut my dates. He blindsided me at lunch. That snake? Oh. He says he needs to appeal to a younger crowd. You gotta do something about this, Jimmy.

[Paul W. Downs]

Okay, I will call Morty.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Marty.

[Paul W. Downs]

Marty. Yes. But I have a pitch. What if you hire a writer? I actually represent a very in demand young woman. She wrote for a hit show, nominated for an Emmy. Almost everybody is talking about her.

[Commercial Voiceover]

I write my own material. I do not need a writer. I need a manager. Uh huh. Your father would have handled this. He promised me you'd take care of me. Don't make your dead father a liar, Jimmy.

[G]

I want to go back to the origins of the show Hacks. Where did the idea for Hacks come from? And I think some of the origin story involves a car trip way back in 2016.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah, actually 2015.

[G]

Oh, 2015, if you can believe it.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah. So we were Jen Statsky, Lucia Agnello, and myself. We're driving from Boston to Portland, Maine. They were with me helping me and writing jokes for the special. And as we drove up, we were talking about our favorite comedians, most of whom are women, and how so many of those women just never had the same opportunities and just didn't get the same respect that a lot of their male counterparts did. And so we were just talking about that phenomenon. And, you know, the three of us also started comedy at the UCB Theater in New York, which is, you know, sort of an alt comedy scene. And we were also talking about this phenomenon of cool comedy versus what young cool comedians might consider hacky comedy. And so we just started talking about this phenomenon and thought, well, you know, what would be a cool show is a show about sort of an icon of comedy who is misunderstood by someone of a younger generation. And so we just, yeah, emailed each other the idea for the show and kept talking about it for four or five years before we pitched it.

[G]

I think it's kind of a thing now to ask comedians what their thoughts are about Cancel Culture. The thought that it's difficult to do comedy now because everyone's too PC and I think it's a little unfair to ask all comics about this issue, but you and your co creators actually take this topic head on, especially this season. Why did you wanna do that and not shy away from it? I'll say too, that the series even starts with the younger comic AV having a tough time getting a job because this kind of edgy joke she put on Twitter kind of made it so that it was hard for her to get work.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah, I mean, it's funny because we pitched this episode where Deborah goes back to her alma mater for an honorary degree, but then some of her older material comes back to haunt her. We pitched that when we pitched the show and we didn't have exactly the right moment for it. I think this season, because she's on the precipice of a really big job and sort of the stakes of her career are more heightened than they have been, it was the perfect moment to do it. But also it's a scary thing because I don't think we've ever wanted the show to be a show about, quote, Cancel Culture, you know, and also it's such a sort of minefield and, you know, to wrap your arms around it is tricky. And I think if we ever, you know, we want to make a show that first makes people laugh, it's a comedy. But we also want to make a show that makes people think. Because if we have the. Honestly, if we have the opportunity to do that, we have this platform. It's like, why not make something that makes you talk with the people you've watched it with or makes you think about something and reframe something you've thought about in the past. So we do want to do that. It's sort of like we like to think that if we lead with comedy and lead with funny first, we can get away with sort of tackling issues. Because these two people would have very different perspectives on Name Any issue, you know, because they're of such different generations. And so, you know, this year we were like, well, let's. Let's do this because it feels right. And let's try and represent both of their points of view equally.

[G]

Well.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[G]

At the end of season three, Deborah, played by Jean Smart, gets into trouble because someone has released a super cut of some of her worst jokes from the past. Racist jokes. Jokes about people with disabilities. And Ava, the younger comic, like you were just saying, encourages her to be honest and maybe come clean and apologize. And I want to play a scene from that second to last episode that.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Addresses this so little problem. Someone made a super cut of some of your more problematic older material and it's gaining traction. And apparently some students are planning to. To protest your ceremony.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Oh, okay. Which minority group is upset?

[Hannah Einbinder]

Okay. Not great that you have to ask that. And also, I don't think minority is the proper term anymore.

[Commercial Voiceover]

What are they called?

[Hannah Einbinder]

No, don't say they.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Oh, I thought everybody was they.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Now it's a different thing.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Okay, just. Oh, God, this is just the worst possible timing for you to be held.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Accountable for your actions.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Yes. I am inches away from my dream job.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Hey, I think you're getting off pretty easy, okay? You're lucky that Zsa Zsa Gabor is only available on vhs. I mean, it was textbook slut shaming.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Well, she was a slut.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Oh, my. Well, and that's. But that's fine.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Oh, God. Okay, look, just. We gotta squash this, I guess.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Or you could just apologize. No, Deborah, the jokes weren't great. You wouldn't do them today.

[Commercial Voiceover]

No, you never apologize for a joke. I'm a comedian. I was just doing my job. Okay, look, it's just some of the students, right?

[Hannah Einbinder]

Yeah.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Okay. Okay. Then all I have to do is, you know, curry favor on campus with the other students, you know, drown out the dissenters, make the minority voices a minority.

[Hannah Einbinder]

I could go right in the super cut.

[Commercial Voiceover]

I'll tell you what we're gonna do. We will go to that fraternity party tonight. I'll buy them supplies, and I will do that student improv show that was invited to do. It's the perfect opportunity to make myself look good.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Okay, Deborah, improv has never made anyone look good.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Okay.

[G]

I like ending with that. Knowing that the co creators of this show came up in improv. Yeah. I want to just ask you about how you figured out how you wanted Deborah to respond to this. Because it is. This is really one of the most kind of in depth and sophisticated ways of taking on this topic of cancel culture and how people aren't really canceled, actually. Or as Deborah says, you know, she was canceled, you know, years ago, before there was ever a name for it.

[Paul W. Downs]

Right.

[G]

And it only became. They only gave it a name after it started happening to powerful white men.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yes. Yeah. And I think that's actually, like, for us, it was one of the really important things because in the history of the character, she was maligned in the press by an ex husband who was jealous and, you know, made to seem crazy. And so she was somebody who was wrongfully canceled. But again, like she says, there wasn't a name for it. It really has only had a name when it started happening to powerful white men. So, you know, in a way, especially for someone like Deborah, who has been on the right side of history and has, you know, again, in the history of the character, was fined by the FCC for saying abortion on tv. You know, she did things that were progressive and she did things that were left leaning and she did things that she feels should get her a pass and that the fact that she's getting taken to task now is really not fair. And what Ava says is, yes, and people can have a reaction to your work because you're a rich and famous comedian and it's not a judgment on your entire being. It's about certain work that you did. And I think that's like an important thing because I do understand the defensiveness that comedians have when there is pushback or there is negative reaction, because oftentimes as a comedian, your job is to observe the world and to make people laugh. And if you've done that, you know, a, you feel as though you've done your job well. And B, if over time it hasn't aged well, it feels like it's an attack of your actual being because it's your observations. It's the way your mind works. But the truth is, it's just about jokes. I do think it's not about. I don't think people are like, wow, that person is bad with a capital B forever. You know, I think it usually is more site specific. And so, yeah, I think it was a way for us to be able to sort of show both sides of the argument and hopefully just the fact that Deborah is willing to engage speaks volumes to the fact that she isn't a hack. You know, she's somebody who evolves.

[David Biancooli]

Paul W. Downs speaking with Anne Marie Baldonado last year. The fourth season of Hacks began streaming this week on HBO Max. After a break, film critic Justin Chang reviews a new movie, Warfare, based on true stories of U.S. navy SEALs serving overseas. This is FRESH AIR.

[Terry Gross]

Psychologist Dolly Chug studies the lengths we.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Will go to protect the way we see ourselves.

[Hannah Einbinder]

We care about whether we're seen as.

[Commercial Voiceover]

A good person, whether others see us as a good person, and whether we.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Feel like good people.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Ideas about our self image. That's on the TED Radio Hour podcast from npr. Since Donald Trump took office in January.

[Hannah Einbinder]

A lot has happened. The White House Budget Office ordered a pause on all federal grants and loans. The impact of the Trump administration's tariffs.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Is already being felt in President Trump's.

[G]

Efforts to radically remake the federal government.

[Commercial Voiceover]

The NPR Politics podcast covers it all.

[Hannah Einbinder]

Keep up with what's happening in Washington and beyond with the NPR Politics podcast. Listen every day.

[Justin Chang]

The latest season of the White Lotus served up a tropical buffet of sex, betrayal, violence, revenge, privilege, drugs, death. And this was new spirituality. But whose dead body was floating in the pond? We've seen the finale and we've got thoughts on thoughts. Listen to the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from npr.

[David Biancooli]

The new movie Warfare was inspired by the true story of a squad of U.S. navy SEALs who found themselves under fire in Iraq in 2006. The film, which opens in theaters this week, was co directed by Ray Mendoza, a former SEAL who was part of that squad, and Alex Garland, the British filmmaker behind such thrillers as Civil War and Ex Machina. Our film critic Justin Chang has this.

[Justin Chang]

Review in his 2024 action drama Civil War, the British director Alex Garland imagined a dystopian America torn apart by violence. For all its echoes of the present day. I found the movie politically neutral to the point of vagueness, and I couldn't buy into its world building. I did, however, buy into its world destroying, which is to say its viscerally terrifying action sequences. In staging the battle scenes, Garland worked closely with a military advisor, Ray Mendoza, a former U.S. navy SEAL who's also lent his expertise to the war drama Lone Survivor and the video game Call of Modern Warfare. Now Garland and Mendoza have reteamed on a new movie simply titled Warfare. The two co wrote and co directed the film, which reconstructs an incident from the Iraq war in November 2006, when a routine mission by Mendoza and his fellow SEALs went dangerously awry. The script was drawn entirely from Mendoza's and his comrades memories, with no attempt to fill in the war's broader context. The aim is to embed the audience with the soldiers and provide as immersive an experience of modern combat possible. It begins at night when a squad of seals break into a two story apartment building in the city of Ramadi, known to be a hotbed of Al Qaeda insurgency by the next morning, they've set up a surveillance operation, but the details of their mission remain unclear, which only ratchets up the tension. There's no exposition, only terse, often indecipherable bursts of military jargon. The seals are played by actors including Will Poulter, Joseph Quinn, Michael Gandolfini, and as the young Mendoza himself, Defero Wunatai from the series Reservation Dogs. But we barely get to know their characters, names or backgrounds. They don't crack jokes or tell stories from back home. They haven't been given the cliche of one distinguishing personality trait a piece. Most of the time we see and hear them functioning as a unit and a cohesive, very well trained one. The seals mostly sit quietly and wait. One sniper, Elliot, played by Cosmo Jarvis, keeps his rifle trained on a house across the street where he suspects insurgents are hiding. And then all hell breaks loose. An unseen enemy drops a grenade into the building, making it clear that their presence has been discovered.

[Commercial Voiceover]

You hurt me. I'm good, I'm good. Check on Ellie. I think our gear's still in there. Put your arm up. Look at me.

[Justin Chang]

How bad is it?

[Commercial Voiceover]

Yeah, we're gonna need a castle back.

[Terry Gross]

All right.

[Commercial Voiceover]

This is Frogman 6 Romeo.

[Paul W. Downs]

We are troops in contact at our last known position.

[Commercial Voiceover]

More info to follow. Stand by, Wild Eagle base. Wild Eagle 2 4. We Are Troops in contact, requesting immediate air support. Over. Alt, this is one. We've had grenades thrown into our position. Copy One. We're in contact. You.

[David Biancooli]

Elliot is injured.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Are we coming to you or are you coming to us? Stand by.

[Justin Chang]

Given how many films we've seen about US troops in combat, from Platoon and Full Metal Jacket to Saving Private Ryan and the Hurt Locker, it's a tall order for a movie to say something new about the experience. But warfare succeeds in part by committing to a level of moment to moment realism that those earlier films, even at their most harrowing, didn't strive for. Most of the story plays out in real time, and as the seals wait and wait for armored vehicles to bring them to safety, the directors aren't afraid to slow the pace down and draw things out to an agonizing degree. The movie's second half is at once excruciating and mesmerizing. An IED goes off. Casualties are sustained, and wounds are lingered on at graphic length. You're reminded of how quickly some war movies cut away from the carnage, but warfare doesn't. Some of its soldiers. Anguished screams are still echoing in my brain. Some will find Garland and Mendoza's film too narrowly focused to the exclusion of any deeper insight into the war. Similar critiques were leveled at the Hurt Locker, still perhaps the best American drama ever made about the Iraq war, and they're no more convincing when lobbed at warfare. Those looking for politics will find it, I think, in the way Garland and Mendoza avoid jingoism and false heroics. There are acts of heroism here, to be sure, but no glorification. And we're never allowed to forget that the American soldiers are a hostile, intrusive presence. From time to time, we see Iraqi civilian families huddling in terror in the apartment building where the seals have set up their operation. There are also quick glimpses of insurgents firing from rooftops across the street. At times I wondered what kind of movie could be made about the same events from their perspective, with the same radical absence of cliche. Warfare doesn't just offer a corrective to the war movies we've seen already. It's powerful enough to leave us thinking about all the ones we still have yet to see.

[David Biancooli]

Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker. He reviewed the new film warfare on Monday's show. Actor Richard Kind, you've seen him on countless TV shows and films in his 40 year career. Only Murders in the Building, Curb your enthusiasm. Spin City, mad about you, a serious man. And as Bing Bong in Inside out, just to name a few. He's now the announcer and sidekick on Everybody's Live with John Mulaney on Netflix. I hope you can join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Imagine, if you will, a show from NPR that's not like npr, a show that focuses not on the important but the stupid, which features stories about people smuggling animals in their pants, incompetent criminals and ridiculous science studies. And call it Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me because the good names were taken. Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Yes, that is what it is called. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Justin Chang]

Want to.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Know what's happening in the world? Listen to the State of the World podcast. Every weekday we bring you important stories from around around the globe.

[Paul W. Downs]

In just a few minutes, you might.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Hear how democracy is holding up in South Korea. Or meet Indian monkeys that have turned to crime. We don't go around the world. We're already there. Listen to the State of the World podcast from NPR.