Jeff Hiller's Big Break Came In His 40s

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fresh Air – "Jeff Hiller's Big Break Came In His 40s"

Episode Information:

• Title: Jeff Hiller's Big Break Came In His 40s
• Show: Fresh Air
• Host: Terry Gross, co-hosted by Tonya Mosley
• Release Date: August 12, 2025
• Guest: Jeff Hiller, Emmy-nominated actor and author
• Memoir: Actress of a Certain Age: My 20-Year Trail to Overnight Success

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Introduction to Jeff Hiller and His Breakthrough

In this engaging episode of Fresh Air, host Terry Gross welcomes Jeff Hiller, an Emmy-nominated actor renowned for his role as Joel in HBO’s third-season finale of Somebody Somewhere. Hiller discusses his long-awaited breakthrough in his acting career, which materialized in his 40s after decades of smaller roles and typecasting.

Key Points:

• Late-Career Success: Hiller’s big break came after years of playing minor roles, often stereotyped as the "bitchy gay" character.
• Emmy Nomination: His portrayal of Joel earned him a nomination for Best Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series.
• Memoir Launch: He recently published his memoir, Actress of a Certain Age, detailing his 20-year journey to success.

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Breaking Through Typecasting

Jeff Hiller delves into the challenges he faced being typecast due to his appearance and sexual orientation. He recounts roles where his characters lacked depth, such as a serial killer targeting gay men in American Horror Story.

Notable Quote:

“If you're obviously gay but not hot, your roles are limited. You just play the bitchy gay,” – Jeff Hiller [00:17]

Discussion Highlights:

• Limited Roles: Hiller discusses how being typecast restricted his opportunities in the industry.
• Desire for Depth: Expresses a longing to play more nuanced characters beyond stereotypes.
• Changing Landscape: Reflects on how Somebody Somewhere allowed him to showcase his true range and break free from previous constraints.

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Similarity Between Hiller and His Character Joel

Terry Gross explores the parallels between Hiller and his character Joel, highlighting how personal experiences shaped his portrayal.

Notable Quotes:

"I'm very like Joel in that sense." – Jeff Hiller [04:26]

"We deserve to be happy." – Jeff Hiller [03:42]

Discussion Highlights:

• Vision Boards: Hiller shares that both he and Joel create vision boards, a detail that adds authenticity to his character’s aspirations.
• Emotional Connection: He emphasizes the warmth, humor, and joy that both he and Joel embody, contrasting his past roles.
• Character Development: Discusses how Joel’s journey mirrors his own realizations about happiness and contentment.

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Career Struggles and Turning Points

Hiller opens up about his struggles before landing his significant role, including financial instability and the emotional toll of not achieving his dreams earlier.

Notable Quote:

“I thought I'll never get to play anything like that. And you feel a little powerless when you're an actor because you can't really make your own things happen.” – Jeff Hiller [10:35]

Discussion Highlights:

• Financial Challenges: Worked various jobs, including temping at JP Morgan Chase, to support himself while pursuing acting.
• Creative Outlet: Turned to writing his own shows and doing stand-up and improv to regain a sense of control and artistic expression.
• Perseverance: Highlights the importance of resilience and continual self-improvement despite setbacks.

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Early Life, Bullying, and Finding Solace in the Church

Hiller shares poignant memories of his childhood, detailing the bullying he endured and how the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA) provided a sanctuary.

Notable Quotes:

“I was gay and because I was, you know, girlish and chubby and, you know, not attractive in the conventional sense.” – Jeff Hiller [15:05]

“The church was a place where you could be accepted and where you could be loved.” – Jeff Hiller [16:12]

Discussion Highlights:

• Bullying: Faced severe bullying in junior high, leading to low self-esteem and self-critical behavior.
• Church as Refuge: ELCA's focus on social justice and community support offered him acceptance and a sense of belonging.
• Conflict with Faith: Struggled with his desire to become a pastor while reconciling his sexuality, leading to a complex relationship with his faith community.

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Journey into Improv and Teaching at Upright Citizens Brigade

Hiller discusses how he discovered improv, leading to a pivotal shift in his career and personal growth. His involvement with the Upright Citizens Brigade (UCB) allowed him to mentor future stars.

Notable Quotes:

“I loved the immediacy of the laugh from the audience.” – Jeff Hiller [22:07]

“I've coached actors like Abby Jacobson, Ilana Glaser, and even Aubrey Plaza.” – Jeff Hiller [26:08]

Discussion Highlights:

• Discovery of Improv: Initially hesitant, Hiller found a natural talent and passion for improvisational comedy.
• Teaching and Mentorship: Played a significant role at UCB, influencing several successful comedians and actors.
• Personal Fulfillment: Improv provided a creative outlet and a way to connect with audiences on a deeper level.

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Health Challenges and Their Impact on Career

Hiller candidly addresses his health issues, including frontal fibrosing alopecia and morphia, discussing how they affect his self-image and acting opportunities.

Notable Quotes:

“It affects my self-image and sometimes limits the roles I'm offered.” – Jeff Hiller [42:05]

“The makeup team has to work hard to hide the scars and hair loss, which can be challenging during auditions.” – Jeff Hiller [41:51]

Discussion Highlights:

• Frontal Fibrosing Alopecia: Causes significant hair loss and scarring, impacting his appearance.
• Adaptation in Acting: Challenges with makeup and the perception of roles that require him to be shirtless or visibly alter his appearance.
• Emotional Toll: Struggles with self-consciousness and maintaining confidence in his professional life.

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Reflections on Success and Industry Realities

Hiller reflects on the unpredictable nature of success in the entertainment industry, questioning why peers achieve breakthroughs while he previously did not.

Notable Quote:

“Showbiz ain't fair. It's not a meritocracy.” – Jeff Hiller [28:12]

Discussion Highlights:

• Comparison with Peers: Observes that colleagues from the same improv circles achieve recognition faster, leading to feelings of inadequacy.
• Industry Challenges: Acknowledges the randomness and lack of meritocracy in the entertainment business.
• Personal Growth: Emphasizes shifting perspective from "Why me?" to "Why not them?" as he gains success.

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Anecdotes and Light-Hearted Moments

To illustrate his versatility and sense of humor, Hiller shares memorable stories from his acting and improv experiences, including dressing as a cockroach for a pest control company and his experiences in commercials.

Notable Quotes:

“It was surreal being dressed as a cockroach in Union Square and encountering people I knew.” – Jeff Hiller [28:24]

“Commercial auditions are different; you have to follow specific rules, which I’ve mastered over time.” – Jeff Hiller [29:56]

Discussion Highlights:

• Creative Campaigns: Details unconventional advertising stunts, showcasing his adaptability and comedic talent.
• Commercial Work: Reflects on how commercial roles provided financial stability and honed his ability to perform within strict parameters.
• Humorous Interactions: Enjoys playful banter about his and Bridget Everett’s on-screen chemistry and improvisational skills.

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Closing Thoughts and Future Endeavors

In the concluding segments, Hiller expresses gratitude for his recent successes and shares insights into his ongoing projects, including his memoir and potential future roles.

Notable Quote:

“I have more to give, and I'm grateful to everyone who supported me on this journey.” – Jeff Hiller [04:08]

Discussion Highlights:

• Memoir and Legacy: Hiller hopes his story inspires others facing similar struggles in their careers and personal lives.
• Continued Passion for Acting: Remains committed to taking on diverse roles and contributing to the arts community.
• Community and Support: Values the connections made through his work and mentorship, emphasizing the importance of a supportive network.

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Conclusion

Jeff Hiller's interview on Fresh Air provides an intimate look into his late-blooming career, personal struggles, and triumphs. From overcoming typecasting and personal insecurities to finding solace in improv and achieving long-awaited success, Hiller's story is both inspiring and relatable. His candid reflections offer valuable insights into the challenges faced by actors in the industry and the resilience required to attain one's dreams.

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Selected Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• On Typecasting:
  “If you're obviously gay but not hot, your roles are limited. You just play the bitchy gay.” – Jeff Hiller [00:17]

• On Vision Boards and Personal Connection:
  “I'm very like Joel in that sense.” – Jeff Hiller [04:26]

• On Emotional Struggles and Past Roles:
  “We deserve to be happy.” – Jeff Hiller [03:42]

• On Career Challenges:
  “I thought I'll never get to play anything like that. And you feel a little powerless when you're an actor because you can't really make your own things happen.” – Jeff Hiller [10:35]

• On Overcoming Self-Doubt:
  “Showbiz ain't fair. It's not a meritocracy.” – Jeff Hiller [28:12]

• On Health Impacting Career:
  “It affects my self-image and sometimes limits the roles I'm offered.” – Jeff Hiller [42:05]

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of Jeff Hiller's Fresh Air interview, highlighting his journey, challenges, and achievements. It serves as an informative overview for those who haven't listened to the episode while providing key insights and memorable quotes from the conversation.

Transcript

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[Terry Gross]

I'm Terry Gross. I think it's fair to say that everyone who watched the HBO series Somebody Somewhere, including me, wanted actor Jeff Hiller to be their friend. He he played Joel, a sympathetic and supportive friend with a great sense of humor. Somebody Somewhere was the big break Hiller had been hoping for for decades. As he writes in his new memoir, if you're obviously gay but not hot, your roles are limited. You just play the bitchy gay, which is what he played in lots of small parts and episodes of lots of different TV shows and commercials. More recently, he played a serial killer who targets gay men in American Horror Story. His new memoir is called Actress of a certain my 20 year trail to Overnight Success. Somebody Somewhere concluded its third and final season last December. Now Jeff Hiller's nominated for an Emmy for Best Supporting Actor in a comedy series. The story is built around the characters of Sam, played by Bridget Everett, and Joel, Jeff Hiller's character. When the series begins. Sam had returned from New York to Manhattan, Kansas, where she grew up to help care for her sister, who is dying of cancer. After the sister's death, Sam stays in Kansas, where her other sister still lives. Sam has no friends there and has an argumentative relationship with her sister. Sam feels so lost and rejected that she takes offense easily and doesn't realize that in order to avoid rejection, she's pushing people away. But she becomes very close to Joel. He introduces her to his found family of LGBTQ people and artists who secretly have a nighttime cabaret at the church where Joel is the pianist and has a key. He gets her to sing again. She's a great singer who doesn't think she's any good. In the second episode, when they're becoming friends, she visits his home and sees a large, elaborate collage standing up against the wall in the living room. She asks if it's his dream board and he corrects her. It's his vision board. Bridget Everett's character Sam, speaks first.

[Bridget Everett]

You really spent some time on this. You gonna go to Paris? You got an Eiffel Tower there?

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, just Europe. I wanna go to Europe.

[Bridget Everett]

Okay. Oh, and then, of course, everybody's hands and a heart community. Mm. Great. Was that a blender or something?

[Jeff Hiller]

It's a Vitamix. I just, I really want to Have a nice kitchen.

[Terry Gross]

And.

[Bridget Everett]

Oh, what's this one? Is this you and Michael and your nine adopted kids or what?

[Jeff Hiller]

It's not nine. It's six. And four of them are adopted. Yes.

[Bridget Everett]

Okay. And you want to do all of this here in Kansas?

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, this is where I live.

[Bridget Everett]

Oh, family prayer circles, pots with cactus and.

[Jeff Hiller]

I mean, what is wrong with this? What's wrong with Ms. I, I. I'm dreaming about the future. This is what I want.

[Bridget Everett]

Well, I mean, dream all you want, Joel, but this is the future. We're in our 40s, and it hasn't happened yet.

[Jeff Hiller]

Has.

[Bridget Everett]

Hasn't happened for you. It hasn't happened for me. And that's because it's not going to happen. And it's definitely not going to happen here. Keep cutting up your pictures. But that's the way it is.

[Jeff Hiller]

We deserve to be happy.

[Bridget Everett]

I'm not sure. I don't know. You know what? I think I should go.

[Jeff Hiller]

Don't go.

[Bridget Everett]

I'm gonna go.

[Jeff Hiller]

Don't leave. We're gonna go.

[Terry Gross]

Jeff Hiller, welcome to FRESH air. I love the series, and you are so great in it. Thank you so much for being on the show. Congratulations on the Emmy nomination and the memoir.

[Jeff Hiller]

Thank you. Wow. I've got a lot going on.

[Terry Gross]

Yes. So since we just heard your character, Joel's vision board, let's talk about the similarities between you and Joel. Cause there are several. You want to point some out?

[Jeff Hiller]

Sure. Well, first of all, I make vision boards. Well, I've done it twice. I've done it twice and before the series even. And on one of them, I did have a Vitamix, and the writers didn't know that. And I had a Vitamix on my vision board, and my mom got me one for my birthday. And so it just feels very. I'm very like Joel in that sense. And I think I'm also someone who is warm and likes to laugh and is joyful. And as you said in the intro, I've normally played sort of rude customer service representatives. And so it felt like such a joy to play Joel because he did feel a lot more like me. Rather than putting on a scowl and acting, it felt very like something I really knew how to do because he was so similar to me. But I'm not so similar that I can look at you and say, if you sing at my party, everything will be better in your life that I don't know how to do, which I feel guilty about because I think sometimes people approach me on the street wanting.

[Terry Gross]

That I'll also point out you both have a very good sense of humor because, I mean, like, your thing is improv comedy.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

That's what you did for years. So, like, you know how to be funny.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, I hope so.

[Terry Gross]

You're just naturally funny.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, I hope so.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, we'll put that to the test.

[Jeff Hiller]

Exactly. We'll see at the end of this interview.

[Terry Gross]

Another thing you have in common with the characters, you both want children and don't have them.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And most of his arc in season three is about realizing that his life is good and he's happy with his life, but he has to mourn the things that he really wanted and didn't get. And that was a really powerful teacher for me, too, because I did. It's funny. I was never one of those people that was like, carrying around a baby doll, being like, I can't wait to be a parent. But I was also never one of those people that's like, why are there kids here? But you're at McDonald's. I'm not one of those people either. I like kids. I love hanging out with them. And I do really have this need to provide safety for someone. And that's the thing that I really miss by not having had kids. But I'm almost 50. My husband doesn't want them. It's not like I can just toss away the pill and see what happens. So I think that probably is not going to happen. And, you know, just like, Joel, I'm. I'm mourning that too. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

How did somebody somewhere change your life?

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, on just the most base level, I don't have to teach improv or temp or cater waiter. I mean, like, I'm financially stable now where I wasn't before. And then it also just made me feel like an artist. I know that's sort of a heavy thing to say, but I do feel like I'm someone who had more to give than I was able to give previously. And I feel like Joel let me show that. And then also, it's just, you know, people in Hollywood know who I am now, whereas before, nobody knew who I was. Maybe a couple casting directors, but not fancy people. Not the president of hbo, surely. And now, now people know who I am, and that's not nothing.

[Terry Gross]

So I mentioned this quote in my introduction, but I'm gonna mention it again. You write, if you're gay but not hot, you play the bitchy gay. So to prove that, oh, no, we're gonna play just a few clips of you in very Small parts. Okay, so we'll start with 30 Rock. This is an episode in which you're a flight attendant on a plane. All the passengers have been sitting on the plane waiting to take off for, like, a really long time. So you're the flight attendant trying to, like, distract them by telling them that they can watch videos because they can't use the bathroom and they can't eat. There's no food being served. So here you are.

[Jeff Hiller]

Excuse me. While we're waiting to take off, we're going to go ahead and begin our in flight entertainment, which is the feature film Legend of the Guardians, the Owls of ga', Hool, and some NBC sitcoms that didn't make the schedule.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, so that's funny and very well written in a very small part.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right.

[Terry Gross]

We'll move on to Law and criminal intent, season 10. You're part of an investigation and you're going through stolen documents.

[Jeff Hiller]

I've been through 80% of the stolen documents and I've got nothing incriminating. Just more internal memos, innocuous emails. Keep going. No, don't bother. There's still 8,000 pages.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, a small part. Everyone who lives in New York has been on at least one episode. Every actor, or would be actor, has been probably in at least one episode of one Law and Order franchise or another. Okay, we move on to Broad City, and in this, you're the owner, manager of a coffee shop. The ladies room has been closed for a while. You knock on the door and find one of your employees, played by Alana Glaser, asleep on the toilet, leaning on a large bag of expensive coffee beans. Here we go.

[Jeff Hiller]

You are so completely fired.

[Capital One Ad]

Fine. God. But I'm at least entitled to my one free coffee a day for employees.

[Jeff Hiller]

You made that up. There is no one free coffee a day for employees. You're just a thief. Wow.

[Capital One Ad]

Did you just call me a queef? That's sexual harassment.

[Jeff Hiller]

Get out.

[Terry Gross]

Go. Okay, so point proven. It must be. It must have been so frustrating for so many years to have, like, fun parts but really tiny ones like that.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, I mean, it wasn't like, when I got the job playing that, I was like, oh, no, not another one of these. Cause the jobs were so few and far between that. That was a thrill. And if anything, it was like, oh, good, I have a niche, and sometimes I can play kind of mean people and I'll get those jobs. I have a friend, and she's like, yeah, this Karen thing is good for me. I can play a Karen. And I really identified with that. But it was more during those long periods in between these small jobs when I would think, I know I have more to give. I know I could be someone who could explore rich text and understand people's personalities and convey that. And it was it wasn't especially frustrating when I would get these tiny roles. It was frustrating that I just in between when I would not get anything bigger because honestly, being the guy who enhances the photo on Law and Order was a huge win, huge. But I did know I had more to give. And when I turned 40, and I had never played anything like that, I sort of think I'll never get to play anything like that. And you feel a little powerless when you're an actor because you can't really make your own things happen. And that's why I started writing my own shows and doing standup. And that's why I love improv so much, is because I could control that. I could make a show happen. But I did want to act in a way that was and I'm so grateful to Bridget and HBO and all those people that made that show happen that I got to do that because it was even if we had only shot the pilot, it was just it felt so good to be able to capital A act. And I loved it.

[Terry Gross]

Before we get to how when you were in school, you were bullied all the time and how horrible it was.

[Jeff Hiller]

Nice tease.

[Terry Gross]

Yes.

[Jeff Hiller]

Stick around, everyone.

[Terry Gross]

Let's take a short break here. My guest is Jeff Hiller, and he's nominated for an Emmy for his performance in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere. Its third and final season ended last December. His new memoir is called Actress of a Certain Age. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

[Jeff Hiller]

Federal funding for public media has been eliminated, which means decades of support for public radio and television from both political parties is ending. To be clear, NPR isn't going anywhere. But we do need your support. We hope you'll give today to keep rigorous, independent and irreplaceable news coverage available to everyone free of charge. Make your [e-mail] and thank you.

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[Jeff Hiller]

That means we spent the last 15 years talking about what exactly?

[Capital One Ad]

Bad reality TV. Actually good. Marvel movies?

[Jeff Hiller]

Actually awful. Marvel movies?

[Capital One Ad]

Reboots, Pop music, Prestige dramas. Netflix slob. That's 15 years of buzzy pop culture chit chat. And here's to many more. With you along for the ride, listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Terry Gross]

So let's get to the bullied part.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, yes. The big payoff for the audience.

[Terry Gross]

Yes. So in real life, when you were growing up, sounds like you didn't have friends in school, you were bullied in junior high when the bullying was at its worst and the bathroom and the gym showers were like torture chambers for you. Were you bullying yourself for being gay? Like, were you picking on yourself, taking your cue from everybody else who was picking on you?

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, sure. I definitely did not. I was gonna say I didn't love myself, but I didn't even like myself. I did kind of think I deserved it because.

[Terry Gross]

Deserved to be bullied.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, yeah. And deserved to be hated because I did sort of think I was bad, inherently bad. Because I was gay and because I was, you know, girlish and chubby and, you know, not attractive in the conventional sense. Yeah, I did pick on myself quite a bit. But I have to tell you, I didn't do it nearly as badly as some of the other kids. They really went for it. I got the gold medal there.

[Terry Gross]

For you. During those years when you were bullied, church was a safe place, and you were very active in it. You went nearly every day. There was youth group and Sunday school after school tutoring, handbell choir, senior cho choir, children's choir, where you were the teen assistant. So it was the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. Describe, like the foundation of the church.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right. You hear the word evangelical and it sounds pretty right wing. But the ELCA is actually the slightly more progressive arm of the Lutheran Church. There are different factions. And. And so when I was growing up, that church was really a lot about social justice and being called by God to help people. Not because we are required to help people in order to get into heaven or whatever. We have grace for that, but because we are given this wonderful gift of life from God. It's important to help other people. And so for me, the church was the place that you went. If you didn't have food, if you didn't have money to pay your rent if you didn't have, you know, we had clothing drives and we always sort of had families through this organization that we would help provide with housing and with, you know, just whatever, toiletries, things like that. A lot of people feel that the church is a place that is oppressive and othering people. And there are a lot of churches like that and they've sort of co opted the narrative. But for me, the church was a place where you could be accepted and where you could be loved. And it wasn't until I came out that I kind of realized they weren't really into gay people yet.

[Terry Gross]

But they probably knew you were gay just as like the students in your schools knew you were gay.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, no one was ever surprised when I came out, but I think. But I didn't realize you couldn't be a pastor and be gay. And that has since changed. The church now does allow openly queer pastors, but at the time you had to be celibate, whereas straight pastors could marry and have kids and things like that. And so for me it was like a surprise that the church was oppressive.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. So it must have made it extra confusing when you wanted to be a pastor and you couldn't because it meant you wouldn't be able to act out on your own sexuality because you'd have to be celibate, whereas straight people wouldn't have to be celibate to be a pastor.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah. And it was also, I mean, I say confusing. It's not like I was completely unaware that gayness wasn't considered bad in the world. But it was more insulting than confusing. It was more like, but I've played all the. I've done it. I've been here and you've been here with me and we've been together and how could you now say I'm not welcome?

[Terry Gross]

The other thing you loved about church was the pageantry, the singing. That church was like theater for you. And you loved theater. You loved the whole idea of performance.

[Jeff Hiller]

And the pastor would stand up there, you know, kind of give a show. It was lovely.

[Terry Gross]

And did you like being in choir?

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes, I did. And I found it. I was inquiring in school in addition to at church, and it was really. That was also sort of a safe place at school. It was like a community and you all had to blend and come together. And so people were looking for how you could unite. And everyone else in every other class was looking for how they could, you know, hit me or, or make fun of me or call Me names and the choir was this really unifying cohesive space.

[Terry Gross]

Why did you feel called to be a pastor?

[Jeff Hiller]

I do like to help people, and I do want to belong to a community. I've since realized I'm probably not the best overt leader, probably more of a follower, but I thought I could help people in that way, and I thought I could be there not only providing sort of logistic help, like with whatever food if you're hungry, but also emotional help. Because there is such a tradition of pastors being sort of semi therapists too, when people are having problems. And I thought I could do that well. And then when I realized I couldn't do that, I thought, oh, well, then what makes sense is to go into social work or, you know, direct care, working in a shelter and then in public health. And then I realized I'm not really good at that. And so that's why I became an actor and left people not helping them at all. But I still volunteer.

[Terry Gross]

So when you left the church, did that leave a big hole in your life and in your identity?

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, I say I left the church. I left the want to be an ordained pastor, but I still went to church for many years. It was a hole in my identity to no longer think I was going to be a pastor because that was sort of. My whole Persona was sort of this granola Christian type. And it was confusing. It was harder to admit to myself that I wanted to be an actor and. And to leave behind social work and then do improv while I, you know, worked at temping at JP Morgan, Chase by day and then doing improv shows by night. That was. It was a real. Yeah, it was like an identity confusing. Time to be like, oh, I guess I don't help people anymore. Now I just do silly jokes in this basement of this Gristide's grocery store.

[Terry Gross]

What got you interested in improv?

[Jeff Hiller]

My friend. My best friend Katie had done improv in college, and she said, I want to go to this audition, but I'm afraid to go alone. Will you come with me? And I was like, oh, I could never do improv. I'm so bad at it, but I'll go with you in case this is a cult or whatever. And I went. And I was so good at it. I was good at it right away. And I loved being good at something and I wanted to do nothing but that because I had missed performing so much in the three years I was living in Denver working in social work. And I just loved performing and I loved the immediacy of the laugh from the audience. And. And especially with improv, you can kind of tailor your show to the audience, which can be bad. You don't want to, like. You don't want to just go dirty because you think the audience will scream at being dirty. But it is sort of a conversation about what this particular group of people is interested in. And so I've become really good at being in dialogue with an audience and finding what they like. And then it becomes a conversation. It becomes a part of the improv show. The audience. It's not just the two scene partners doing a scene and finding where to go. It's also the audience, too. And I think that's. I still do improv today, even though I don't necessarily have a lot of time for it. But it's just.

[Terry Gross]

It feeds me on the downside of improv. You say, and this is you speaking Only 1% of improv is funny. That's a pretty terrible track record. So what keeps you in it if you have such a low regard for the results?

[Jeff Hiller]

Maybe my percentage is a little bit off, but it's true.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, double it. It would be 2%.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, that's fair. You know, it is an imperfect art form. And, you know, I also. Whenever people are like, I want to come see your improv show, I always say, like, oh, it's okay. Don't worry about it. Because there are people who really love improv. And, you know, it's sort of like jazz or something where it's like.

[Terry Gross]

That's what I was thinking. I was thinking it's sort of like free jazz, which seems like it's probably more fun to play than to listen to now. I mean, in the early days when it was radical and like something brand new, it was exciting.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right?

[Terry Gross]

But it's not always so exciting now. No, but. Yes. I'm sorry I interrupted you, but you're right.

[Jeff Hiller]

All of what you just said is completely true. There are people. Yeah. You know, those jazz heads that still love hearing all of that. And, yes, there are people. I think sometimes it is. Certainly for me, I much prefer performing it than watching it. But sometimes you can watch it, and it becomes transcendent in a way that no other art form ever can, because it is happening in the moment. And when you see a group of people all in the same mind and they find these things together, you're not only laughing, you are on the verge of tears.

[Terry Gross]

But.

[Jeff Hiller]

But I say that. And that is the thing. That is for sure, less than 1% of happening. It's happened. You know, I've been doing improv for 25 years and it's maybe happened twice, maybe three times. So it's. Yeah, it's an imperfect art form.

[Terry Gross]

Your improv group is the Upright Citizens Brigade, which was co founded by Amy Poehler. You've taught there and you've had some students in improv who became very successful. Name some of them.

[Jeff Hiller]

Abby Jacobson and Ilana Glaser from Broad City. And some people who weren't necessarily my students, but who I was peers with or like. I would coach their improv group, like Aubrey Plaza, Donald Glover, Darcy Cardin, Ellie Kemper. I was on a team with Bobby Moynihan. So yeah, lots of people.

[Terry Gross]

What was it like to see your students and your peers becoming more successful than you?

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, I never was like, they don't deserve it. I truly wasn't like that. It was more like, why can't I get a break? Why all of these people who are from the same place as me are having success, but I'm not now? I was only comparing myself to the people who had success. I wasn't comparing the people who looked at me and thought I was having success because I was on Law and Order that time. But I really kept thinking, it's something I'm doing. I've done something bad. I'm too gay or I'm too ugly or I'm too big because I'm very tall. And so it became. It's funny. It's kind of like that question you asked earlier. Or did I bully myself? That's. I think that was me bullying myself. But interestingly, now that I've had this success, I feel a lot of. What's the word? It's not shame, it's confusion at why I have other friends who are also incredibly talented who haven't had the break that I've had recently. And I'm not sure why. I used to say, why me? And now I keep thinking, why not them? And the truth is, showbiz ain't fair. It's not a meritocracy.

[Terry Gross]

Well, your improv skills have come in very handy in roles like playing a cockroach for a pest control company. So tell us what that experience was like. Explain that.

[Jeff Hiller]

It was me and like four other UCB people and this pest control company had us dress up like cockroaches and we stood in Union Square and handed out, you know, brochures for this exterminator. That's the word I'm looking for, exterminator. And we had to pretend that we were having a party in the walls of people's apartment buildings because the idea was that these roaches were having parties. And that's why you needed this exterminator to come in and help you out. And it was only one day. We got free lunch and $500. And so I did it. But it was one of those times where I thought, you know, I have friends who I went to college with who own houses and they have their own washing machine in their house, and I am in Union Square in a cockroach costume, hiding, when I see people I know come by.

[Terry Gross]

On a kind of related note, or perhaps not so much, you've been in a lot of commercials earlier in your career. And like, in some of them, like, you have one line. Like, there's one commercial where your line is wedges because the woman in it is choosing between, like, espadrilles or wedges, and you're going wedges. So how do you audition for, like, what is the audition like, for an ad like that?

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, it's so funny that you bring up that commercial because I just met the woman who wrote it. She was at a book signing. I just did, and I was like, oh, my God. I had to give her a hug. It was so exciting because it really commercials saved me so many times financially and allowing me to get health insurance through sag. Commercial auditions are they're not like acting auditions. Many auditions, you'll go in and you don't say a word. You just stand there and smile or you, you mime drinking something. It's a different type of acting. And you really have to learn the rules. And I was really good at following rules. And I think a lot of actors are not good at that. And I think that's what makes me a really good guest star, too. Cause in a certain way, when you have tiny little roles, you just need to do this one thing so that we can get on with it. We don't need to what the character's thinking. We don't care. We just want you to do the thing.

[Terry Gross]

Okay. Let's take another short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeff Hiller. He's nominated for an Emmy for his performance in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere. His new memoir is called Actress of a Certain Age. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

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[Terry Gross]

A prosthetic hand would feel if the.

[Jeff Hiller]

Patient is holding a hot glass or.

[Terry Gross]

A cold bottle of beer.

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[Terry Gross]

Now. Another thing that you've done is you've auditioned a lot for Broadway shows. You've been in off Broadway shows. You were in one Broadway show, and you sing. And I want to play an example of you singing, because you have a really nice duet with Bridget Everett in somebody somewhere. And this is from, I think, the first episode where you get her to sing at this basically like cabaret that you've created at night in church, when no one is looking, because you have the key, because you're the pianist for the church and everybody has a great time there. And you kind of force her up to the microphone to sing. And you duet with her on the song Don't Give up, which Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush had duetted on. So let's hear that. And we'll pick it up in the middle so we get to you right away.

[Bridget Everett]

No fight left or so it seems I'm a man whose dreams have all deserted I changed my face, I changed my name but no one wants you when you lose.

[Jeff Hiller]

Don'T give up Cause you have friends don't give up, you're not being. Don't give up. Somewhere there's a place where we belong. That's your head. You worry too much. It's gonna be all right. When times rough you can fall back on us. Don't give up. Please don't give up.

[Terry Gross]

That's a really great duet. You both sound so good.

[Jeff Hiller]

She sounds so good at the end there, doesn't she?

[Terry Gross]

She's got a great voice.

[Jeff Hiller]

She really does. I know that's sort of like saying, you know, Paris is beautiful. But she does. She has such a great voice. And when I read the pilot and I thought, like, if I get this, I get to sing a duet with Bridget Everett. Cause I was such a fan of hers before, before the show happened. Cause she's like a downtown star in New York City. So it was a real thrill. I can't Believe. Actually, when you were playing it, I was like, I can't believe I got to sing a duet with a Bridget Everett on television.

[Terry Gross]

So you have a great story about auditioning for Stephen Sondheim, and I think this would be a good time to tell it.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, I did audition for Stephen Sondheim in this planned revival of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, playing a character named Hysterium, which I wouldn't be perfect for it. I don't know why somebody didn't cast me in that role, but. And I sang my song, and he was so into it, and I was so excited, and everyone was so effusive, and he was just so happy. And then I went home that night, and, you know, like, when you think something big is gonna happen and you, like, are just like, this is my new life. I'm a Stephen Sondheim actor. And so I started watching all of these YouTube videos of interviews of Stephen Sondheim, and in about, like, I don't know, number seven or eight, someone said, do you have to pretend that you're liking a show when you're in the audience watching it? Because people are watching you watch this show? And he said, oh, God, no. I don't ever do that. But I do have to pretend that every actor who auditions for me is the best thing I've ever heard, or they'd all kill themselves. And I thought, oh, no. Maybe that's what was happening during that period. And, in fact, I did find out I did not get that show. That was like my third. Yeah, I was. I was. But I'm also. I'm also used to getting the no. And there's something in theater when you get that far along, you get the no. And a lot of times in film and tv, you never even find out if there's a no or yes. It's just you get kind of ghosted. And so there's something about hearing a no that's like, okay, well, closure, and you just move on.

[Terry Gross]

You write about having a midlife crisis when you were 40. What was that about?

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, I was having this crisis because I was in a financial crunch. I didn't have a lot of money. I had to move from LA back to New York because I hadn't gotten a job on tv. And then the really big thing that I sort of downplay in the book comedically is that my. My parents were both very, very sick. My mom was dying, and my dad was going through a pretty big health crisis as well. And it just felt like everything was sad and I was chasing this dream that didn't seem like it was possible to happen because whoever hears of someone having their big break after 40, and now that I had a break after 40, I've heard of a lot of people. I just didn't do the research properly. But I did feel like I had wasted my life and all I had to show for it was, you know, credit card bills and nothing else.

[Terry Gross]

I want to ask you about your mother because she sounds like such a wonderful person. She died in, was it 2016?

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

And, like when you were growing up and you were being bullied, like she knew that you were gay, but she never said anything. And she actually went to a gay pastor and said, you know, what should I do? Should I say something? And he said, no, you have to let your son bring it up. Don't bring it up yourself. Was that the right advice, do you think?

[Jeff Hiller]

I do. I really do. I think I would have been defensive if she had said something. And I mean, I had been trying to do it for several months, so maybe that would have been the time to have done it. But I think that pastor was right. I think you can't drag someone out of the closet. You have to let them open the door themselves. And the big takeaway from me was that she had done all of this research, which is so her. I mean, it's funny, but it's also beautiful. And it makes me feel so loved that she had done all of this work to make me feel loved and safe. And I'm so grateful for having her because I don't think I would have survived having my school journey and also not having a safe home. It would have been too much.

[Terry Gross]

Well, we need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeff Hiller. He's nominated for an Emmy for his performance in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere. His new memoir is called Actress of a Certain Age. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

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On the Throughline podcast, you have the.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right to remain silent.

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It's a staple of cop shows. When I think of Miranda today, I think it's so misshapen now that it's really lost its ability to do much good.

[Jeff Hiller]

The Fifth Amendment and the right to remain silent.

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[Terry Gross]

I want to ask you about a couple of health issues and how they affect you as an actor. Do you mind if I bring it up? Because you talk about it in the book.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, that's fine.

[Terry Gross]

So you have. And this is a mouthful. Frontal fibrosing alopecia.

[Jeff Hiller]

I think you nailed it.

[Terry Gross]

And morphia. Would you describe what they are?

[Jeff Hiller]

Sure. Morphia is, as I understand it. I'm not a rheumatologist, but as I understand it, it's when your immune system thinks that the healthy layer of fat underneath your epidermis is bad, and it attacks it and eats it away, and then it causes your skin to scar. And then frontal fibrosing alopecia is. You know, I think we all know what alopecia is. Just hair loss. But I guess on your frontal lobe, it's like my eyebrows. I have no beard, and I have a large chunk of hair missing on the top of my head from that, so.

[Terry Gross]

And you have some, like, brown marks.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, yes.

[Terry Gross]

On your chest and the scarring. Yeah. So if you're shirtless in a scene, the makeup people really have to go to work.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, boy. And they don't like it. They don't like it, and I don't blame them. It's a lot of work.

[Terry Gross]

So how is it affecting both your self image and your career?

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, with my career, it's more about. It's things like that with, you know, in the hair and makeup trailer, you really have to go in and be like, I'm really sorry, but I have to put this little piece of hair in my head or I look strange. And 201 people have been so supportive and kind, and I think it bonds us immediately. But also, you know, sometimes you get cast as the person who takes their shirt off. And whenever an actor has their shirt off, it's either because you want to look at them and be like, wow, they are hot, or it's to be like, oh, my gosh, they're so not hot. And so I think in that sense, they want to just see you sort of be jiggly. They don't want to be like, wait, what are those things? You know? So I think it's hurt in that sense. But it's also like, do I really want those roles where I'm like. Like, I made jiggle? Probably not. So in that sense, I guess there's definitely been more than one commercial where I was not cast. And because you had to take your shirt off in the audition, and I could tell them that, they were like, huh, what is that? But then, self image wise, it's just one more reason that I'm uncomfortable. One more reason that when I go to the beach, I'm like, oh, God, not gonna explain this to people. That sort of a thing. And then you hope you don't go in the beach and your fake hair flows away in the ocean.

[Terry Gross]

Right. So I have to ask you about the COVID of your book.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

And the book is called Actress of a Certain Age. And you're pictured on it wearing your regular glasses, but over your head, you're wearing, like, a headscarf. Not like an Islamic headscarf, but just like the kind of headscarf that women wore a lot in, like, 1950s movies.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right. When they had to ride in a convertible.

[Terry Gross]

Exactly, exactly. And I'll reference in particular here Imitation of Life with Lana Turner. Remember her wearing a lot of scarves like this?

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

And yours is, like. I have to say, it's not an attractive scarf, if you don't mind me saying that.

[Jeff Hiller]

It's like, Terry, that was original Hermes, I believe.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, really? Because it's like magenta and black and this, like, I don't know, loud pattern. But anyways, what were you trying to conjure? Was it like, 1950s movies?

[Jeff Hiller]

I was trying to find a photo that looked, you know, the book is called Actress of a Certain Age. And I wanted something that looked glamorous but also winky and campy. And I thought, this. This picture fit the bill.

[Terry Gross]

So I have one last question for you.

[Jeff Hiller]

Okay.

[Terry Gross]

So this is gonna make both of us uncomfortable.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, my God, I love this preface.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, so on page 62 of your book, you write, once I was a guest on a podcast where the host tried to do that serious NPR intro voice that Terry Gross does on Fresh Air. And the host said, my guest, Jeff Hiller, is on a new show on HBO called Somebody Out There. Jeff, I loved Somebody Out There. I loved everything about Somebody Out There. And of course, the show is called Somebody Somewhere, not Somebody Out There. But I want to get to the. The serious NPR intro voice. Since you not only do improv, but you've taught improv, how can I make my intros sound less serious?

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, don't you dare. Don't you dare. It's part of the joy of listening to it. I would never want you to change it. You do that. Wonderful. You did it today. And I got goosebumps where you said, this is FRESH air. It's like a little slide we go down. I hope I'm not making you self conscious. Oh, you're too far in. You're already know your brand. But I love it. I would never want you to do it. And that's why this podcaster was doing it, because they wanted to emulate you. They wanted to be the best.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, thank you so much. This was so much fun to do. Thank you so much for coming.

[Jeff Hiller]

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

[Terry Gross]

Jeff Hiller is nominated for an Emmy for his performance in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere. Tomorrow on FRESH air, singer, guitarist and songwriter Charlie Crockett brings his guitar and plays some of his songs. He won an Americana Music Award and this year was nominated for a Grammy. He's about to tour with Leon Bridges in what's being billed as the Crooner and the Cowboy. Crockett's the Cowboy. He has a new album called Dollar a Day. I hope you'll join us. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

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