Jessie Buckley loves the ‘shadowy bits’ of her characters

Summary

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Fresh Air: Jessie Buckley Loves the ‘Shadowy Bits’ of Her Characters

Host: Terry Gross (NPR)
Guest: Jessie Buckley (Actor; star of Hamnet)
Date: March 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features Jessie Buckley, acclaimed Irish actor and singer, in a wide-ranging, intimate discussion with Terry Gross. With an Oscar nomination and a Golden Globe win for her role as Agnes Hathaway in Hamnet, Buckley explores themes of grief, motherhood (both on screen and in her own life), inhabiting difficult characters, personal growth, and the influence of dreams and music in her process. The conversation covers Buckley's formative experiences—from her roots in Killarney and convent school musicals to her breakout on a reality singing competition—while delving into the complexities of female characters and her evolving relationship with performance and selfhood.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Approaching Agnes Hathaway in Hamnet

• Portraying a largely unknown figure: Buckley reflects on taking on the role of Shakespeare’s wife, for whom little historical record exists.
  • "What had been written about Shakespeare's wife was... she was kind of given the title of being a woman that had kept him back from his genius." (03:36)
• Empowering the marginalized: She praises Maggie O’Farrell's novel for repositioning the women and children in Shakespeare's life as vibrant, full characters.
• The 'wild child' and connection to nature: Agnes is depicted as mystical and deeply connected to the natural world—a trait Buckley relates to her own Irish upbringing:
  • "When you grow up in a landscape like [Killarney], your mind and your soul is wild. You know, things just grow because they want to grow." (06:33)

2. Spirituality, Mysticism, and Energy

• Buckley embraces the notion of spirits and energy, describing a ‘curiosity of an unknown and a seeking’ as central to how she lives and approaches roles.
  • "I believe that, like, you have a conversation with somebody's energy and spirit. Absolutely... there is a spirit in the very memory of them that lives on." (07:26)

3. Performing Grief and Motherhood

• The emotional depth of Hamnet's death scene: The iconic 'howl of grief' was spontaneous, not scripted—a testament to Buckley’s immersive, present approach and deep cast bonds.
  • "By the time I'd met that scene, I had developed such a deep bond with Jacoby Jupe, who plays Hamnet... we really were a family." (08:37)
  • "The death of a child is unfathomable... Out of utter respect, I tried to touch an imaginary truth of it." (08:37)
• Personal experience of motherhood: Buckley became pregnant shortly after filming. She found the real experience humbling and recognizes the existential vulnerability parenting brings.
  • "The thing I've realized becoming a mother is it humbles you down to your knees... it always brings you on a way more kind of wild journey." (10:50)
• Not fearing the darkness—embracing 'shadowy bits':
  • "My work, I'm not scared to touch the shadowy bits. I like them. They... help me... And a mother's tenderness, it's ferocious..." (12:16)

4. Dreams as Creative Compass

• Dream analysis: Buckley uses dreams as tools to access character insight, a process she introduced to director Chloé Zhao and the Hamnet cast.
  • "I'm not very good at linear thoughts or projections... with characters and work, it's the same... I find dreams really curious things." (13:56)
• Practical application: She recounts a dream about rescuing a girl under a rock in the ocean, devoured by a stingray, as a metaphorical touchstone for Hamnet’s death scene.
  • "When we got in to shoot that scene, I definitely put that stingray somewhere in that room on that day." (15:25)

5. Transitioning Between Contrasting Roles: Hamnet & The Bride

• Playing extremes: Buckley filmed The Bride (Maggie Gyllenhaal’s feminist take on the Bride of Frankenstein) before Hamnet, experiencing a dramatic shift from wild, monstrous energy to raw maternal grief.
  • "Like Shakespeare reincarnates his son through the vessel of a story, which is what happens at that end... the vessel of a story can help you... touch the things you can't hold by yourself." (19:20)

6. Roots in Music and Performance

• Musical household in Ireland: Buckley grew up surrounded by music—her mother a harpist and singer, her father passionate about it.
  • "I saw the power of storytelling through my mom singing at a very young age... that's definitely something that made me think, I want to do that." (22:54)
• Early stage roles: Played Tony in West Side Story at convent school, describing the supportive, all-girls environment as fun and formative.
• Breakthrough on TV singing competition (I'd Do Anything): Buckley discusses the excitement and pressure of competing at 17, her rawness, and resilience in response to harsh criticism—especially regarding her femininity and physicality.
  • "To criticize a body of a young woman at that time and to make her feel conscious of that was lazy and... boring." (28:55)
• Critical mentorship: Cameron Macintosh funded her Shakespeare course at RADA post-competition—a turning point where she discovered acting could be as emotionally expressive as music.
  • "That gesture changed my life... when I went and did that course, it was the first time I recognized myself as an actress." (31:10)

7. Artistic Growth & Embodying ‘Shadowy Bits’

• Growth as a singer and actor: Buckley reflects on her vocal maturity, especially in her acclaimed role in Cabaret, and how she approaches hope, vulnerability, and uncertainty in her art.
  • "I hear somebody trying to find hope, trying to... be held. Every sentence starts with maybe... what if it doesn’t [happen]? Don’t we all thread in that precipice in life?" (36:57)
• Role choices and self-discovery: Jessie seeks out roles that challenge her, especially those that let her explore complex, "crunchy" female figures—what she calls the "shadowy bits."
  • "A lot of why I choose the roles that I do is to kind of meet those shadowy bits... I want all the shapes, all the stories, all the feelings." (39:03)

8. Motherhood & Career: Balance and Authenticity

• Working while pregnant: Buckley discusses filming The Bride’s reshoots while eight months pregnant and how motherhood brought clarity and boundaries to her work.
  • "I really loved working when I was pregnant... becoming a mom and being pregnant did something, I think for me, my experience of it, it's so real that it really like focuses you." (42:37)
• No fear of fading away: Buckley isn’t afraid to take time off, valuing both being a present mother and an engaged artist.
  • "I don't think I have to choose, you know, I really don't... I think I will be a better mother to continue to be passionate about something in my life." (45:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On female complexity:
  • "Let's give the full landscape of what it is to be a woman." (40:49)
• On hope and uncertainty:
  • "Every sentence starts with maybe... what if she doesn't fully believe it, that hope's gonna actually arrive?" (36:57)
• On identity and performance:
  • “When you grow up in a landscape like that, your mind and your soul is wild.” (06:33)
• On embracing darkness:
  • "I'm not scared to touch the shadowy bits. I like them." (12:16)
• On artistic boundaries post-motherhood:
  • "I have this amount of energy, I will give you everything I got... And actually that really focuses you on set." (43:37)
• On autonomy and authenticity:
  • "There's no part of you that needs to be less in your life. You might have to work it out, but it's like, it's worth it." (47:14)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:25 — Buckley on researching Shakespeare’s wife
• 06:08 — Nature, wildness, and ‘mystical’ aspects of Agnes
• 08:12 — Preparing (or not) for Hamnet’s grief scene
• 10:32 — Real-life journey into motherhood
• 12:16 — On not being spooked by darkness as a performer
• 13:56 — Using dream analysis in character work
• 15:25 — The symbolic stingray dream
• 19:00 — Contrasting The Bride and Hamnet
• 22:28 — Musical upbringing and its imprint
• 25:36 — Early public singing on I'd Do Anything
• 28:55 — Responding to criticism about femininity and form
• 31:10 — Turning point: Shakespeare and RADA
• 34:47 — Performing “Maybe This Time” in Cabaret
• 38:47 — Acting as personal exploration
• 42:24 — Juggling motherhood and acting in The Bride
• 45:32 — On not fearing disappearance during parental breaks
• 47:14 — Fusing motherhood and artistry

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Tone and Style

Buckley’s tone is candid, thoughtful, reflective, and at times fierce—always emotionally open. She relishes “crunchy,” difficult roles, values tenderness and wildness, and embraces both uncertainty and authenticity as cornerstones of her identity, artistry, and motherhood.

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Transcript

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[Terry Gross]

This is FRESH air. I am Terry Gross. The film Hamnet is nominated for eight Oscars, including best Actress for my guest, Jessie Buckley. Hamnet's other nominations include best Picture, best Director for Chloe Zhao, who's also nominated for best Adapted Screenplay, along with Maggie o', Farrell, the author of the novel Hamnet, which the film is based on. Buckley plays William Shakespeare's wife, Angus Hathaway. Little is known about Shakespeare's real wife. The film is largely an imagined version of her. What's true is that the couple's son Hamnet died at age 11 from the plague. In the film, he catches it from his twin sister. Shakespeare has already left the couple's home in the country to go to London and work on writing and staging his plays, and has promised to bring the rest of the family as soon as he settled and has a little more money. When Hamnet gets sick and it's clear his life is in jeopardy, Agnes calls for her husband to come home, but he doesn't make it in time. Shakespeare and Hamnet don't get to say goodbye, and Agnes is left to experience the horror of her son's death without her husband. In this scene, when Shakespeare does return, she's angry that he came too late. But she also feels guilty that she didn't pay enough attention to Hamnet while she was caring for their daughter who survived the plague. Shakespeare is played by Paul Mesco.

[Jessie Buckley]

I should have paid her more attention. I always thought she was the one to be taken away, when all the while it was him. I was full. No. There's nothing anyone could have done to save him. You did everything that you could. Of course I did. You weren't here. I would have cut my heart out and given it to him. I would have laid my life down on the ground for him and no one would take. I know. You don't know. You don't know. You weren't here. He died in agony. He was in agony, Agnes. And he cried. He cried and he cried and his little body racked in pain. Don't shush me. He was so scared and you weren't here.

[Terry Gross]

Hamnet has become known for leaving a lot of people in tears. Buckley won a Golden Globe for her role on Hamnet. Other films for which she received various awards or nominations include the Lost Daughter, Women Talking Beast, Wild Rose and Men. Her next film, the A Feminist take on the Bride of Frankenstein, opens March 6 on TV. She was a star of season four of Fargo and a star of the HBO series Chernobyl. She won an Olivier Award, Britain's equivalent of a Tony, for her performance in a revival of Cabaret. Hamnet is now playing in select theaters nationwide and is also available to watch streaming at home. Jessie Buckley, welcome to FRESH air, And congratulations on your Oscar nomination and your Golden Globe win.

[Jessie Buckley]

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

[Terry Gross]

My pleasure. What were you able to learn about Shakespeare's real wife, and how does that compare with how she's depicted in the movie, how you depict her in the movie?

[Jessie Buckley]

Well, I think before I'd read this book, what had been written about Shakespeare's wife was it wasn't great.

[Terry Gross]

You mean it wasn't positive or there wasn't a lot?

[Jessie Buckley]

No, it wasn't positive. I think she was kind of given the title of being a woman that had kept him back from his genius. And I think what Maggie o' Farrell so brilliantly did, not just with Agnes and Shakespeare's wife, but also with Hamlet, their son, was to bring these people who in our imaginary world, filled Shakespeare and his the plays that have lived forever and given them status beside this great man which is full and vibrant

[Terry Gross]

in this imaginary version of her life. People think she must be part witch because she was born in the woods and so was her mother. And she knew so much about herbs and herbal medicine and got along with animals. She was a falconer. So we don't know how true that is, right?

[Jessie Buckley]

No, but I think it's interesting, you know, I think what is so frightening about her? Like, that was a question I was asked, like, what is it about this woman that is other that people feel a need to call her a forest witch or a daughter of a forest witch or, you know, somebody that was is too much against the society at the time. And my experience of playing this incredible woman was her uncompromising embodiment and connection to nature and her own elemental nature. And I guess at that time it was kind of the beginning of Puritanism and capitalism and paganism was kind of becoming something scary. And people were beginning to decipher themselves off like machines, you know, how you could work a land and create produce was something that at that time in history was becoming conscious in the culture. And yet this woman was just deeply connected to nature.

[Terry Gross]

One of the producers, Pippa Harris, is quoted in the production notes talking about how you embody the character of Agnes, she says about you, she's quite a wild child in the sense that she's very much at one with nature. She's slightly mystical. She believes in the soul and the spirits, and she's a really caring person. When you hear that, does that sound like you?

[Jessie Buckley]

Um, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I grew up around a lot of nature. I grew up in southern Ireland in a town called Killarney, which has lots of mountains and lakes. And there was a lot of freedom and expression by just living in that place when we were younger. And I think when you grow up in a landscape like that, your mind and your soul is wild. You know, things just grow because they want to grow. There's no planting or formula to the nature in that place. And I think that was really informative to me as a child and still is.

[Terry Gross]

Getting back to that quote, do you believe in spirits and consider yourself a little mystical? Because I'd love to hear more about that if you care to share it.

[Jessie Buckley]

Spirits. I do. I believe in energy. I believe that, like, you have a conversation with somebody's energy and spirit. Absolutely. And I think even people who've passed, that there is a spirit in the very memory of them that lives on. And I guess in the mystical sense is like. I guess what that's making me think of is like, it's about curiosity, isn't it? Of curiosity of an unknown and a seeking. I don't. Yeah. And I guess I like to live in that place is to be curious about and something unknown.

[Terry Gross]

One of the best known scenes in the movie is when your son has just died and you're just, like, howling with grief and despair. And I'm wondering, is that something that you rehearsed a lot or prepared for? Or did you try to be spontaneous about it? Because, like, that's a scene that really brings out everyone's tears.

[Jessie Buckley]

No, I didn't know that that was going to happen or come out. It wasn't in the script. I think, really. Chloe asked all of us to dare to be as present as possible. And of course, leading up to, you know, you're aware that. That this scene is coming, but that scene doesn't stand on its own. By the time I'd met that scene, I had developed such a deep bond with Jacoby Jupe, who plays Hamnet and Paul and Emily Watson and all the children, we really were a family. And Jacoby Jupe, who plays Hamlet, is such an incredible little actor and an incredible soul, and we really were a team. And I think we both recognized where we might go, but where that might end, we didn't know. And look, I. The death of a child is unfathomable. I don't know where it begins and ends. Out of utter respect, I tried to touch an imaginary truth of it in. In our story as best I could. But there's no way to define that kind of grief. I'm sure it's different for so many people. And in that moment, all I had was my imagination, but also this relationship that was right in front of me with this little boy. And that's what came out of that moment.

[Terry Gross]

You hadn't yet become a mother, but you did get pregnant. I think like a week before Hamnet opened. Do I have that right?

[Jessie Buckley]

A week after I wrapped filming.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, okay.

[Jessie Buckley]

Something was cooked.

[Terry Gross]

Were you trying or was that really a surprise? That seems so. Like the timing of it just seems amazing.

[Jessie Buckley]

I wanted to become a mother for a long time and schedules, life being in different places, work, you know, it was hard. And that was kind of like a beautiful thing, but also an intense thing. To kind of feel that in my own personal life, beside this mother that I was living inside in Agnes. The thing I've realized becoming a mother is it humbles you down to your knees. And any idea you think of yourself in being a mother or becoming a mother, or in birth or any of it, I mean, good luck, because it's never like that. It always brings you on a way more kind of wild journey.

[Terry Gross]

I'm wondering if portraying the mother of Hamnet and the wife of William Shakespeare spooked you, because you had just experienced the grief that a mother has when her 11 year old son dies. And now you are about to become a mother. So were you spooked by the thought a son can die, a child can die?

[Jessie Buckley]

I wasn't spooked. Not because I didn't think about it, but I don't know, what are you going to do, you know, like, lock yourself up and not kind of, you know, my work, I'm not scared to touch the shadowy bits. I like them. They like, help me. I think my experience when I don't touch them is, is that they show up in a more destructive kind of bigger way. So actually the thing that this story offered me that brought me into this next chapter of my life as a mother was tenderness. You know, and that was a word and a feeling that I think I didn't know was what I was looking for. And a mother's tenderness, it's ferocious, you know, to birth is no joke. To Be born is no joke. And the minute something's born into the world, you're always in the precipice of life and death. That's our path, you know, we all know we're going to head towards that destination, I guess. And I wanted to be a mother so much that that overrode the thought of being afraid of it.

[Terry Gross]

The director, Chloe Zhao, sent the cast to a coach who uses dream analysis as a tool for insights into who you are and who your character is. Did you find that helpful?

[Jessie Buckley]

Yeah, I actually introduced Chloe to this woman that we worked with, and I've used it as a way to create for a few years now. I find it so helpful. I'm not very good at linear thoughts or projections, and I found school very difficult because it was too linear and formulaic and I couldn't learn like that. And, you know, with characters and work, it's the same. I don't want to project an idea onto the women that I play until I've lived beside them and then in them. And I find dreams really curious things. And when you open a book or you open the script and the world of that script begins to kind of reflect itself around you, your unconscious does stir the waters towards that world. And I find it a very interesting and useful tool to abstractly enter into an essence of a being rather than projecting an idea on top of them. And I create so much from this way of working. I write, I collect pictures. I'm like a magpie, you know, music I paint. It spills out of me when I start working like that. So I find it so useful.

[Terry Gross]

Would you be willing to share an example of a dream that you found useful in making Hamnet or another film that you made?

[Jessie Buckley]

I remember when I was filming Hamnet, I had a dream. I think it was leading up to the death scene. And we were in. I'm gonna sketch. You know, I'll just give you. I can't remember totally, but, you know, and I just to say, like, dreams are the language of metaphors as well. So anyway, this dream, I remember being in an ocean and I knew that there was a little girl stuck on. Under a rock at the bottom of the ocean. And I. I knew I had to try and get her out. And I was. Kept trying to swim down to this place and as I was swimming, this huge stingray came and started to like. Basically the whole ocean became the belly of a stingray. And he was kind of devouring that world. And I remember when we got in to shoot that scene, I Definitely put that stingray somewhere in that room on that day.

[Terry Gross]

Do you see the stingray as being a metaphor for death kind of taking over, consuming everything, Grief?

[Jessie Buckley]

I guess so. I don't know. I mean, it could be many different things for many people. And I try not analyze it. I try and like, just let it be kind of free thinking, you know, a free, like a thought that can. Sometimes I have dreams, you know, Like, I had a dream three years ago and I read a script recently and that dream came like straight to the front of my mind. And I was like, oh, this script is this dream. And actually this is like something that I. I know I. I need to like, get very curious about this dream. Like, what happens if I return to this dream and try and work on it once a week for six months? Like, will something get unraveled just as an exercise? Not for like any kind. Anything. Woo. Woo. It's just curious, isn't it? And it's also just to say it's not a new thing. Like the surrealists were using it, Dali was using it. I'm people pretty sure David lynch used his dreams in his films as Fellini. There's this extraordinary Fellini book of all of his dreams and he's created. It's this most beautiful book where all the characters that he found in his dreams are all painted in this book. And you can see them in like Eight and a Half and La Strada. So it's not a new tool, it's just something to get curious about.

[Terry Gross]

In addition to starring in Hamnet, you star in a new film called the Bride, which is Maggie Gyllenhaal's take on the Bride of Frankenstein. Like, what if the Bride of Frankenstein was a feminist who spoke out about misogyny and corruption, but she's also totally wild and out of control, really nasty. So it must have been. It must have been such a kind of shock from going to making the Bride to making Hamnet. Cause I think even though the Bride's opening later than Hamnet did, I think you made the Bride first.

[Jessie Buckley]

I made the Bride first, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, and also, you know, in Bride of Frankenstein, you're reanimated. Like you've died and you're brought back to life like Frankenstein.

[Jessie Buckley]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Whereas, you know, in Hamnet, that's all about a dead son staying dead, living in silence. Well, kind of living in silent kind of, yes.

[Jessie Buckley]

Like Shakespeare reincarnates his son through the vessel of a story, which is what happens at that end, you know, is when she reaches out, she can touch the thing that she thought she'd lost because her husband has created the greatest magic trick of her life. When her son dies, it's so ginormous that she can't find him until that moment when the vessel of a story can help you. Yeah, touch the things that you can't hold by yourself.

[Terry Gross]

We need to take another break, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jessie Buckley, and she stars in Hamnet, for which she won a Golden Globe and is nominated for an Oscar. We'll be right back. Terry I'm Terry Gross, and this is

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[Jessie Buckley]

hi, this is Molly Sivi Nesper, digital producer at Fresh air.

[Terry Gross]

And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.

[Jessie Buckley]

One of the things I do is

[Terry Gross]

write the weekly newsletter and I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly picks, timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.

[Jessie Buckley]

It's also the only place where we

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

tell you what's coming up next week,

[Terry Gross]

an exclusive, so [e-mail] fresh air. And look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. So let's talk a little bit about music. You studied harp and I think another instrument when you were young?

[Jessie Buckley]

Yeah, piano, clarinet. I was never very good and I dabbled in the saxophone for a second, too.

[Terry Gross]

But you didn't study singing, but became known for your singing early in your career. You've been in several musicals, including Cabaret and Soundheim's A Little Night Music, two shows with, like, fantastic scores. So how did singing become your thing?

[Jessie Buckley]

Well, I grew up around a lot of music. My mom is a harpist and a singer, and my dad has always been passionate about music. So it was always something in our house and always something that was encouraged. And I think early on I have very strong memories of seeing and hearing my mom sing in church and this quite intense, mercurial conversation that would happen between her, the story, and the people that would listen to her. And at the end of it, something had been, like, cracked between them and these strangers would come up with tears in their eyes. And I guess I saw the power of storytelling through my mom singing at a very young age. And that was definitely something that made me think, I want to do that.

[Terry Gross]

You played the male lead, Tony, in West side Story in a school production in your convent school, right?

[Jessie Buckley]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

What was it like for you to play a male role in high school?

[Jessie Buckley]

I mean, I loved doing those productions in school, and it was an all girls convent school. And it was brilliant. I mean, the thing that deciphered the girls from the men or the women from the men in the productions was the men wore French plaits and big red French plaits, you know, like to keep their hair down and big, huge, red boxy suits with a tie. But it was brilliant. And I remember doing, when I did those shows, like, even then, it meant so much, you know, I would want to go to the core of it, and if I felt I didn't do it justice, I would kick myself. And the teachers were like, you're fine, don't worry. But it was kind of. It was the thing I looked forward to the most. And it was great fun.

[Terry Gross]

You got your start as somebody who was known outside of high school when you were a contestant on the British TV singing competition. I'd do anything. And the goal was that theater producer Cameron McIntosh and songwriter Andrew Lloyd Webber were going to stage a production of the musical Oliver. And the winner of the contest was gonna be the female lead, Nancy. And so I wanna play the first song that you did on the competition. And this is a cover of the Ike and Tina Turner recording riverdee.

[Jessie Buckley]

Oh, my God.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, my God. Okay, here we go.

[Jessie Buckley]

Terry. When I was a little girl I had a red doll the only doll I. Now I love you just the way I love that red D But only now my love has grown and it gets stronger in every way and it gets deeper day by day Hey, I love you My own mind A deep mountain high yeah, yeah, yeah Lost you I cry oh, how I love you, baby, baby, baby, baby I love you, baby Like a flower Love to sp and I love you, baby Like a robin Love to sing so I heard

[Terry Gross]

you laughing throughout all of that. What were you experiencing as you heard that?

[Jessie Buckley]

I haven't heard that for a long time, so it's definitely a trip down memory lane. You know, I look back at that time and, I mean, firstly, I thought it would take 100 years to peek behind the curtain and be part of an industry that I was so desperate to be part of. You know, I loved it. That's what I wanted to do. And all of a sudden, at 17, I was there, and I was standing in front of Cameron McIntosh and Andrew Lloyd Webber, and I was getting to perform and sing, and I was so raw and ignorant and innocent, but full of passion. And there was a lot of, like, joy in it. But also, I think about that young woman and I think, God, you're so brave. And just that compulsion and passion to be part of theatre was so huge in me back then, and I don't know if I'd be as courageous now to go and do something. Something like that. But when I hear that, I'm like, go, girl. That's what I think.

[Terry Gross]

One of the people on the panel of judges, who were also coaches, thought you were very raw, like you said, and wasn't confident that you would necessarily get any better. How did you take that criticism interlude? Webber and Mackintosh liked you.

[Jessie Buckley]

Yeah, well, there was parts of the criticism which, you know, I think was true. I was raw, I hadn't trained. I. I had a lot to learn and to grow in. You know, I was only 17, but

[Terry Gross]

still, criticism can be crushing.

[Jessie Buckley]

But I think there was parts of their criticism which I thought I think was destructive and unfair. When it became about, like, my awkwardness or, you know, they would say I was masculine and send me to kind of a femininity school. And I actually sent you to the school. They sent me to, like, go to Chicago to put heels on in a leotard and learn how to walk in high Heels, which was pretty humiliating, to be honest. And I'm sad about that because I think, you know, I was discovering myself as a young woman in the world and it wasn't fully formed. And I've always felt I'm not. I don't think any woman is. We're not just like the same. I was different, you know, I was wild. I had a lot of feeling inside me. I could hardly keep my hands beside myself. You know, I had a lot of expression in me. And I think to kind of criticize a body of a young woman at that time and to make her feel conscious of that was a lazy and I think boring. And as I've grown up, I. That's, you know, I think women are not. They were not just to be accepted into the world in one shape. I want all the shapes, I want all the stories, I want all the feelings. I want autonomy of ourselves, to be as vibrant and full as I possibly can. So, yeah, that was hard, that bit.

[Terry Gross]

So your coach was Andrew Lloyd Webber on the show. What did you learn from him and was it helpful?

[Jessie Buckley]

I mean, he's been a very quiet but extraordinary support throughout, you know, and I think him and Cameron McIntosh and Barry Humphries really recognized a raw flame that was to be nurtured. And Cameron McIntosh actually was the person who really introduced me to Shakespeare. After I finished I Do Anything, he called me and he very generously offered to pay for me to go and do a four week Shakespeare course at rada, which was kind of, that's the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts in London. And I'd studied Shakespeare at school, but I, you know, I was kind of intimidated by it. And I guess that gesture changed my life because when I went and did that course, it was the first time I recognized myself as an actress and recognized that I could do what I felt I needed music for in. In Just A Word. Because Shakespeare's words are bottomless. You know, there's no end point to a word in a Shakespeare play. And I think up until that moment I thought that music was a vessel that could hold all my feelings until I'd met Shakespeare in that course and it was significant. So both of them have been very, very like, essential to me discovering myself as an actress and what I want to say and what I want to be and what I want to put out into the world.

[Terry Gross]

If you're just joining us, my guest is Jessie Buckley and she's nominated for an Oscar for her starring role in the film Hamnet. And she already won a Golden Globe for her performance in that film. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

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[Terry Gross]

There's one more song I want to play, and this is from your starring role in Cabaret in a West End production in England. And so you're playing the role that Liza Minnelli played in the movie. And it's a kind of iconic role. And singing maybe this time is a really iconic performance. So I want to play your version of it in which you seem to like rethink the song a little bit and you build like Liza builds. But the end kind of like tones down and becomes more reflective in a way that I don't remember Liza doing it in the film. So let's hear the ending of the song.

[Jessie Buckley]

Everybody

[Terry Gross]

laughs.

[Jessie Buckley]

Love's a winner. So nobody loved me. Lady peaceful, lady happy, that's what I long to be. All the odds are in my favor Something's bound to begin. It's got to happen, Happen sometime. Maybe this time, Maybe this time

[NPR Announcer]

Are we.

[Terry Gross]

I'm hearing someone so much more in control of her voice than when you were a teenager and were on the singing competition. What do you hear?

[Jessie Buckley]

Yeah, somebody who's grown. And I think by the time I'd come to Cabaret, I had gotten to know myself more and lived more and worked more and was in command of my instrument and storytelling better than when I was younger.

[Terry Gross]

Why wouldn't you be?

[Jessie Buckley]

Why wouldn't I? Exactly. I'm only human. And actually, but even in that, you know, like, Cabaret was really, it was such a trip that character is a real trip. You know, you get on that train at the beginning of the night, and you do not get off it until the end. And what I hear in that song and what you're talking about in that ending, you know, I hear somebody trying to find hope, trying to, like, be held. Every sentence starts with maybe, you know, maybe this time. Maybe this time, maybe, you know, like, maybe something's gonna happen to me. And I think what I discovered in playing this part, and especially in that song and in the end is, like, what if she doesn't fully believe it, that hope's gonna actually arrive? Like, what if. What if it doesn't? What if she hasn't? She's, like, holding on for Hope as much as she can until that end point. And just a tiny fraction of a thought that actually, maybe it's not gonna work out. And I guess don't we all thread in that precipice in life?

[Terry Gross]

Count me in.

[Jessie Buckley]

Just one step in front of the other. But, like, God, I hope I don't fall between the cracks.

[Terry Gross]

Did acting bring out parts of your personality that you didn't know you had or maybe didn't know how to express or feelings you were too embarrassed to admit to or too inhibited to, you

[Jessie Buckley]

know, fully express 1,000%? I mean, it's essential to me in that way.

[Terry Gross]

What did you learn about yourself from acting?

[Jessie Buckley]

I learn something about myself through the women that I play in every job that I do, because they contain parts of me in an alternate state and space that maybe, you know, if I was to. I'd have to go to therapy 10 hours a day, seven days a week, if I was trying to actually, you know, incubate the shadowy bits, as I call them. But, you know, through these, the incredible women that I've been lucky enough to play, I get to explore that and experience that. And a lot of why I choose the roles that I do is to kind of meet those shadowy bits. Like Marike in Women Talking, for example. She's tough. She's a hard. She's like an armadillo. And she was the one that I really itched me, you know, I remember when I got that script, I was like, 12 women talking in an attic. How the. What's that? Like, what is that? But she was, you know, the thing that kept itching away at me because I know that woman, and she's not easy. That's what I look for is, like, the crunchy bit, the thing that's disobedient, that's too much that's and whether that's, you know, even to have a protagonist as a mother, to bring the mother to the forefront and encompass all of what it is to be a mother, whether that's in Lost Daughter or Wild Rose or Hamnet. Like, let's give the full landscape of what it is to be a woman.

[Terry Gross]

If you're just joining us, my guest is Jessie Buckley, and she's nominated for an Oscar for her starring role in the film Hamnet, and she already won a Golden Globe for her performance in that film. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

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[Terry Gross]

When you were making the Bride, your forthcoming film inspired by the Bride of Frankenstein, written and directed by Maggie Gyllenhaal, you were pregnant and had to hide your pregnancy on screen. So how did you do it?

[Jessie Buckley]

Well, I wasn't pregnant for the main shooting sequence, but when we came back to do a reshoot for something, I was eight months pregnant. So they just had to do it from the boobs up.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Terry.

[Jessie Buckley]

It's like just the face. The face was my only tool to work from. But, I mean, I really loved working when I was pregnant. I thought it was pretty wild experience, especially because I was playing Mary Shelley and I was talking about a monstrosity. And here I was with two heartbeats inside me. And I, you know, becoming a mom and being pregnant did something, I think for me, my experience of it, it's so real that it really, like focuses you to be I'm allergic to fake or to disconnection. Like, I think since my daughter has come and I know what that connection is and the real feeling of being in a relationship with somebody, kind of soft chat is I can't stomach it anymore or talking around a thing. And as an actress, it's very exciting to like, recognize that in yourself and really take ownership of yourself. You know, I remember in filming that I was really close to giving birth, you know, and being like, I have this amount of energy, I will give you everything I got, but I know there'll be a time when I cannot give you anymore, and that's going to be the end of the day. And actually that really focuses you on set, you know, And I think maybe when you're younger, you're so in awe and reverence that you've been invited into this world, which is part of where you are at that moment. But it's also good to put in some boundaries and focus your work. And I think I'm excited to go back and work on this other side of becoming a mother in so many ways because I've shed 10 layers of skin by loving more and experiencing life in such a new way with my daughter. I'm also scared to work again because, you know, it's hard to be a mother and to work, that's like a constant tug because I love what I do and I'm passionate and I want to continue to grow and learn and fill those spaces that are yet to be filled and also be a mother. And I think every mother can recognize that talk.

[Terry Gross]

Do you think if you took a break, a long one, do you have a fear that you'd be forgotten when you were ready to come back?

[Jessie Buckley]

No, I don't feel afraid of that.

[Terry Gross]

You're just torn between what you should do, you know, like just become a full time mother for a while or keep acting.

[Jessie Buckley]

I don't think I have to choose, you know, I really don't. I think I'm glad to hear that.

[Terry Gross]

It just sounded to me like you thought you needed to.

[Jessie Buckley]

No, I just think it's an honest feeling. You know, I woke up this morning, I haven't seen my daughter in four days. And it hurts. You know, I miss her. But I also am inspired to be around people that make me dream and imagine and I need to do what I do. And I think I will be a better mother to continue to be passionate about something in my life and show my daughter that you don't have to lose any part of yourselves. Of course there's. Of course it's hard, but it's also a beautiful thing to miss something like I've missed. I haven't filmed for nearly a year. And I cannot wait, like, I'm hungry to create again. And my daughter will come with me. You know, she's seven months, so at the moment she can travel with us. And it's a beautiful life. And she meets all these amazing people. And I have a feeling that she loves life and that's a great thing to see in a child. And I hope that's something that I've imparted to her in her the short time that she's been on this earth is that, you know, life is life is beautiful and great and complex and alive. And there's no part of you that needs to be less in your life. You might have to work it out, but it's like, it's worth it.

[Terry Gross]

Well, that's a nice note to end on. So congratulations again on your Oscar nomination and your Golden Globe win for Hamnet. And thank you so much for coming on our show.

[Jessie Buckley]

Thanks for having me. It's a privilege.

[Terry Gross]

Jessie Buckley is nominated for an Oscar for her starring role on Hamnet. It's playing in select theaters and is available for streaming. Her next film, the Bride, opens Friday. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram @NPRFreshAir. FRESH air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Theresa Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.

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