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- [00:01]
Michael Schur
This message comes from Capital One. Your business faces unique challenges and opportunities. That's why Capital One offers a comprehensive suite of financial services backed by the strength of a top 10 commercial bank. Visit capitalone.com commercial member FDIC.
- [00:18]
Terry Gross
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Michael Schur is one of the people behind some of the most beloved TV comedy series of the recent past. He wrote for the Office, co created and wrote for Parks and Recreation and Brooklyn nine nine, and created and wrote for the Good Place. He created the new comedy series A Man on the Inside. All eight episodes just started streaming on Netflix. Before we hear from him, our TV critic David Biancouli is going to review the series. David says there's a couple of things that A Man on the Inside has in common with the good plays. They both star Ted Danson, who who became a star playing the bartender on Cheers, and both shows are entertaining and surprisingly philosophical. Here's David's review.
- [01:05]
David Biancouli
In the Good Place, series creator Michael Schur put an awful lot of trust in Ted Danson, not only in his audience appeal, but also in his acting ability. That series was about a woman, played by Kristen Bell, who awakens in the afterlife with Ted Danson as her guide. Its brilliant twist, revealed after a full season, was that Danson's character wasn't who he pretended to be. It required the actor to switch gears significantly in midstream, and Danson was great at it. And in A Man on the Inside, the new Netflix TV show reteaming sure as series creator with Danson as star, the story starts with him pretending once again, improbably but charmingly. This new eight episode comedy series is based on a documentary from Chile called the Mole Agent and also available now on Netflix. It was nominated for an Oscar in 2021 and shown on the PBS series POV that same year. It told the true story of an elderly man hired by a detective agency to go undercover in a nursing home. The client's mother, a resident of the home, complained of the theft of a family heirloom, so the detective agency advertised for an elderly man, hoping to place him in the home temporarily to find the culprit. Inspired by this story, Michael Shure starts his version by introducing us to Ted Danson's character of Charles in a home movie flashback from his wedding day many decades ago. Then it cuts to Charles in the present day in Oakland, California. He's a widower, a retired professor, and even though his daughter and her husband and kids live nearby, has a rigid and solitary daily routine that routine is interrupted one day by a suggestion from that daughter, Emily, played by Mary Elizabeth Ellis.
- [02:59]
Michael Schur
Look, I know that you don't like to talk about mom, so we don't.
- [03:03]
Terry Gross
Have to, but you know that she would have wanted you to be a person, live your life.
- [03:13]
Michael Schur
Okay. Do you remember when I was little.
- [03:15]
Terry Gross
And you would give me Charles challenges? Like find 10 out of state license plates or read 20 books before Christmas? I'm giving you a Charles challenge.
- [03:27]
Michael Schur
Find a project or a hobby. Just something that excites you.
- [03:33]
Terry Gross
Okay.
- [03:34]
Michael Schur
It's a good challenge.
- [03:35]
Terry Gross
I accept.
- [03:36]
David Biancouli
To widen his horizons, Charles answers a classified ad in the newspaper which had been placed by a private investigator named Julie, played by Lila Rich Creek Estrada. It listed a job offer for a male between 75 and 85 because he could use a cell phone. Charles is hired by Julie to infiltrate the nursing home for a month or so, a mission Charles feels more optimistic about than his employer.
- [04:02]
Terry Gross
Okay, we are meeting with Deborah Santos Cordero. She goes by Dee Dee. She's the executive director.
- [04:09]
Michael Schur
The whole staff reports to her.
- [04:11]
Terry Gross
I am your loving daughter, Emily. Why can't you be Julie? Lawyer online and a bunch of places is having a daughter named Emily. But there aren't any pictures of her.
- [04:19]
Michael Schur
Linked to you, so the name is all that matters.
- [04:21]
Terry Gross
Plus, it's just better to keep your cover story as simple as possible.
- [04:25]
Michael Schur
Cover story?
- [04:27]
Terry Gross
Yes, cover story. Keep it together, man.
- [04:30]
Michael Schur
You ready?
- [04:31]
Terry Gross
Well, I don't know, but it hardly matters. What matters is you think I'm ready.
- [04:35]
Michael Schur
Oh, I don't think that at all.
- [04:36]
Terry Gross
You're not remotely ready, but we ran out of time. Be that as it may, you put your faith in me, and that gives me confidence. I think you are the best option in a sea of not very good options.
- [04:49]
David Biancouli
That's all I needed to hear. Once Charles crosses into San Francisco and moves into the nursing home, a man on the inside really comes alive. Stephanie Beatrice plays Dee Dee, the director who oversees things. And she's as clever as she is caring. The roles of some of the residents are filled by some long, familiar actors. Sally Struthers from All in the Family is one, and Susan Rattan from LA Law is another. It's nice to see so many older actors given so much to do in a TV comedy. And it may be the first time it's been done at least so successfully since the Golden Girls. But a man on the inside isn't just in it for the laughs. It's a comedy, but it's also much more. It uses music very poetically and poetry, too. And as with the Good Place, there's a lot of talk about life and death and the importance and difficulties and treasures along the way. Alzheimer's is treated here at length and with dignity. And one reason it all works so well is because Ted Danson is as good at drama as he is at comedy. You can watch all of A Man on the Inside in one self contained binge, and that's not a bad way to go. It's one of the sweetest TV series since Ted Lasso, and the mystery Danson's Charles is hired to crack is neatly wrapped up by the end. But there's a hint that, as with Sherlock Holmes or those podcasters of Only Murders in the Building, there may soon be other cases afoot.
- [06:23]
Terry Gross
David Biancooli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed the new series A Man on the Inside. All eight episodes just started streaming on Netflix. Here's the interview I recorded a few days ago with the series creator, Michael Shure. Michael Schur, welcome to FRESH air.
- [06:41]
Michael Schur
Thank you.
- [06:42]
Terry Gross
This series is based in part on a documentary from Chile about a man who goes undercover to solve a crime in an assisted living facility. What did you find moving about the Chilean documentary? And why did you see it as having comic potential?
- [07:00]
Michael Schur
So in the documentary, the man who answers the ad, his name's Sergio, and he, like Charles in the show, is suffering from the fairly recent death of his wife. And he answers this ad and it ends up really not only transforming his life, but the lives of all the people that he meets. He makes friends and he is part of a community and he finds a certain kind of purpose in just being around other people. And what was remarkable to me about the documentary, among other things, is that everyone I know who saw it had the same exact feeling, which was I should call my mom or I need to call my grandpa or I should hang out with my kids, more like. It really had this universal effect on people of making them want to reach out to people that they love. And it, you know, it's a rare piece of art, I think that can cause everyone to have such a warm and positive feeling. So, you know, my longtime producing partner Morgan Sackett said we should remake that and have Ted play the main part. And as soon as he said it, I just knew he was right and that there was a very good, slightly fictionalized show that could hopefully sort of give people that same feeling. That was the objective.
- [08:17]
Terry Gross
Did you do research going into an assisted living facility?
- [08:21]
Michael Schur
Yes, we did a lot of it. We went Into a number of them in the California area, Talked to a lot of people, toured the memory care units and the rooms, and met a lot of really wonderful people whose job it is to look after folks when they check in. And it was, you know, it was eye opening, I have to say. It was not maybe what you would expect, which is to say, I think your instinct would be that these are sad places, because it's folks who are nearing the end of their lives, and a lot of them are suffering from various ailments, physical or mental. But they were places of happiness and joy, largely. They were sort of flourishing communities of people who were very happy to be with each other and to be part of a community. And that sort of matched up with what I was hoping for.
- [09:11]
Terry Gross
I'm glad that was your experience. I apologize in advance for being Ms. Buzzkill, but my father was in assisted living for, you know, a few years toward the end of his life, and I helped him move in. I visited a lot, but he told me on the phone at the beginning, you know, there's no one I can talk to here. Everybody's, like, in cognitive decline. And then I felt like, oh, come on, you know, I'm sure it's not that bad. And so the next time I visited him, a woman came up to me and said, hi, nice to meet you. My name is. And I was a school librarian for many years. And I thought, see, you know, she was a school librarian. She's got to be, you know, pretty smart. And then I met her a few minutes later again, and she said, hi, my name is. And I was a school librarian for many years. And every time I ran into her, that's exactly what she said. And I realized, oh, she's having serious cognitive issues.
- [10:03]
Michael Schur
Yeah, well, that is 100% a huge part of the experience of being in these facilities. No question. Like, there are folks who have moved in for a very, you know, wide range of reasons, and one of them is cognitive decline. But at least in the facilities that we toured, there is another part of it that's just folks who maybe they had a physical ailment, or maybe they just were tired of living alone and they wanted to be around other people. And that's at least the part of it that we mainly focused on, Although we didn't shy away from the actual realities of assisted living. If we had pretended like that wasn't a part of it, I don't think we would have been giving an honest portrayal of what it's really like.
- [10:47]
Terry Gross
You've done so much about ethical decisions, especially like on the Good Place and in the book, that was almost like a companion to it. And one of the questions in the series is, is it okay for the Ted Danson character to go in and video and audio record people without their knowledge? Because he's right. He's there to spy. I mean, he's the John Le Carre of assisted living. And, I mean, he's even reading a John Le Carre book in bed before the plot kicks in, before he knows about this job. Yeah. So, yeah. And the episode's called Tinkered Taylor. Older Spy. Yeah, a great title. But anyway, so he's, you know, one of the questions is, is it ethical to. Without their knowledge? Did you think about that a lot?
- [11:34]
Michael Schur
Oh, we did ask ourselves as writers over the course of the show whether what Charles was doing was, strictly speaking, ethical. It's a question that the documentary asks, too. You know, you're creating a pretense, a false pretense, and you're getting to know folks without them really knowing who you are. In the documentary, Sergio, the main character, ends up moving out without anyone learning what he was really there for. He doesn't get caught. And we decided that what was important was for Charles to suffer the consequences of having been essentially dishonest to the folks that he was interacting with. And so that is a part of our show. In the final episodes, he does have to confront the reality of what he did and the circumstances under which he entered the facility.
- [12:24]
Terry Gross
You work with Ted Danson on two series. Yeah, on the Good Place and now on your new series, A Man on the Inside. I love watching him. I think he's, like, fantastic. What is great about working with him?
- [12:40]
Michael Schur
Oh, man. This is going to sound like a strange thing to say. He loves acting and that you would think would of any actor, but it's more true for him. He just loves it. He's so passionate about it that even now, decades after he had to seek anyone's approval for anything he's done, he still wants to be good. And he's constantly asking you, is there something else I should do? Did I get this right? Can I try that again? He just has this unrelenting desire to be as good as he can be. Even now, after how many successful series and shows and movies and everything else. And when you work with someone like that, it just makes everything better because it feels like a real collaboration. It doesn't feel like you're, you know, writing a script and then just hoping that, you know, that the actor will like want to do it more than once. You're. It's a constant dialogue with him. It's a constant discussion and a experimentation and a poking and prodding at the script to make sure we're getting it right. There's just no substitute for that. And it's, you know, one of the many reasons I love him.
- [13:52]
Terry Gross
Your previous series, the Good Place was, you know, all about ethical dilemmas and who gets to go to the equivalent of heaven and who gets sent to the equivalent of hell and how your character and your decisions and your actions are measured to determine that. And you wrote a whole book that's part funny, part serious about, like, philosophy and the great philosophers. What made you want to do something like a comedy series that's really about judging behavior and judging moral and ethical decisions?
- [14:31]
Michael Schur
Well, it's simply a question that I've been asking myself for a really long time. I used to play this game as I drove around in traffic in LA where someone would cut me off on the freeway, or we would be in traffic and someone would pull onto the shoulder and speed past me and cut the line. And as a way of trying to stem off what you would call road rage, I would play a game in my head where I would say, that guy just lost 10 points. I was imagining a scenario in which there was some kind of omniscient observer of human behavior, and I satisfied my own anger or displeasure with other people by imagining that that cost them in some cosmic way. And so after Parks and Recreation ended and Brooklyn Nine Nine was up and running, and my friend Dan Gore, who created with me, was running that show every day, NBC very kindly said, you can sort of do whatever you want, and we'll give you at least one season on the air. So I had been thinking about that game I played in my head about other people and about myself and judging my own behavior and doing things that I knew were maybe slightly iffy and how many points I lost or how many points I gained when I did certain things. And so that became the idea that I just liked the most of the ideas that I had. And I just pursued that and thought, all right, this is going to be weird. I'm going to do a half hour comedy show about moral philosophy. But I don't know, maybe it'll work. I just sort of rolled the dice, and I'm glad I did, because the experience of working on it was wonderful. And I was a big hit. Yeah, I mean, as far as you can determine anything these days as a big hit, it was at least A show that people watched and seemed to enjoy and it seemed to resonate with people.
- [16:21]
Terry Gross
Which played a bigger role in your life, religion or philosophy when you were coming of age?
- [16:25]
Michael Schur
Oh, philosophy by far. I say that only because I had no religion really to speak of. My father's side of the family are Jewish, but my grandfather, his father renounced Judaism when he was very young and became a devout atheist. My mother's side of the family was raised vaguely Methodist, I would say, but I had no religious upbringing at all. When I got to college, I took a couple philosophy classes and really liked the way that philosophy was able to talk about ethics and morality and other topics without limiting them, in many cases, without limiting them to who can apply for this? Right? Like, that was always one of my problems with organized religion was that it was like, this is the way the world works. But it's only for this group of people. It's not for that group of people. It's only for you over here if you believe these sets of things. We told the marketing team when we were coming up with posters and advertising materials for the show, no harps, no puffy white clouds, no halos. Like, this is not a show about Christianity. This is a show about philosophy.
- [17:47]
Terry Gross
Oh, one thing I thought was very clever in the Good Place, when you're in the part that people think is heaven, you're not allowed to use four letter words. You're not allowed to use expletives. So if you want to use the F word, you end up saying fork.
- [18:01]
Michael Schur
Right?
- [18:02]
Terry Gross
Now, since you can't use the F word on network television, I thought, like, that is so clever because everybody will know the intent of the word because it's explained to you why somebody's using a word and then they just keep using it as necessary. So you're not saying the word, but everybody knows the word that you intend. Like for instance, when you say fork, everybody knows exactly what you mean. So is that in part a way of using the language that you wanted to use without having to use it?
- [18:28]
Michael Schur
Yeah, absolutely. This show is appearing on NBC at probably 8:30 on Thursday or something. And you know, you can't say those words. So let's come up with a reason why you can't say them within the context of the show. It wasn't just that it was on NBC. Like I wanted that show ideally to be able to be watched by people of all ages. And it was. I'm happy that that show was on NBC and not, you know, behind a paywall on a streaming service because I think that ultimately my bet, which was just a conjecture at the time, but my bet was that kids would like it. And it turned out to be true. When we entered the COVID era and everybody was having to go to school from home, my wife said, everyone in William, my son's class is watching the Good Place right now. You should do a fun extracurricular like Zoom class where you watch episodes of the Good Place and talk about philosophy. And I was like, I don't know, like it feels those kids are on poor kids are on Zoom like six hours, eight hours a day. And she was like, I think they would like it. So I sent an email to the parents and were like, if your kids would be interested in this. Is this like a thing that, you know, we're all desperate for ways to occupy our kids time these days and immediately like 30 kids showed up. And so I ended up teaching this kind of like sixth grade class on philosophy where we watched episodes of the show. And then I talked about, you know, Aristotle or Kant or something and it was really fun and the kids were really into the show and they really liked talking about that stuff. And the conjecture I had that kids would like it too, even though it was about a pretty arcane subject, turned out at least again, anecdotally to be somewhat true.
- [20:19]
Terry Gross
Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Shore. After writing for the Office and co creating Parks and Recreation and Brooklyn Nine nine, he created the Good Place and the new series A Man on the Inside, which is now streaming on Netflix. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.
- [20:39]
Michael Schur
Hi, this is Molly C.V. nussbert, digital producer at FRESH AIR.
- [20:43]
Terry Gross
And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.
- [20:45]
Michael Schur
One of the things I do is.
- [20:46]
Terry Gross
Write the weekly newsletter and I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly picks, timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.
- [20:59]
Michael Schur
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive.
- [21:03]
Terry Gross
So subscribe@whyy.org freshair and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.
- [21:12]
Michael Schur
This message comes from NPR sponsor Saatva founder and CEO Ron Rudsen shares why Saatva sales associates are focused on finding the perfect mattress for their custom at Saatva to have a 365 day home trial. Why would we want to rush you.
- [21:28]
David Biancouli
Or try to push you into something.
- [21:29]
Michael Schur
That'S not right for you.
- [21:30]
David Biancouli
We want to make sure that we.
- [21:31]
Michael Schur
Guide you to the right mattress.
- [21:33]
David Biancouli
Our team is always available to be helpful to make sure you make the right choice.
- [21:39]
Michael Schur
Visit saatva.com NPR and save up to $600.
- [21:46]
Terry Gross
This message comes from BetterHelp. It's important to take time to show.
- [21:49]
Michael Schur
Gratitude towards others, but it's equally important to thank yourself. Life throws a lot of curveballs, and being grateful isn't always easy. Therapy can help remind you of all that you're worthy of and all that you do have. Let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. Try@betterhelp.com NPRtoday to get 10% off your first month. This message comes from Carvana. With Carvana Value Tracker, you can track your car's value anytime, anywhere. Carvana will even let you know when your car's value changes with updated emails. However you value your car, know its worth with Carvana Value Tracker.
- [22:28]
Terry Gross
This is FRESH air. I am Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Michael Shore, one of the people behind several beloved TV shows. After writing for the Office, he co created Parks and Recreation and Brooklyn 9 9. He created the Good Place and the new series A Man on the Inside, starring Ted Danson, who also starred in the Good Place. So many comics when they're young, like, they're the class clown. They're the ones who's always getting punished for acting up. They're the ones whose parents have to come and explain their child's behavior and they're misfits. And then they find comedy and, you know, often become celebrities and are very well rewarded for it. But it sounds like you through your life, you were always, like, playing within the rules and that that was always important to you. So as perhaps one of the minority members of comedy who played by the rules, how do you explain yourself?
- [23:25]
Michael Schur
Man, what a question. As far as I'm concerned, I, for whatever reason, and I don't know if it's nature or nurture or a combo platter or what, I was always an extreme rule follower my whole life. Like, I have a very specific memory of being in kindergarten and being on the playground, like at recess, I think, or maybe before school. And the teacher came out and went like, okay, everybody line up. And I immediately walked over and stood right in front of her. And the other kids were like, still milling around and goofing around and laughing and playing with four square balls and stuff. And I remember thinking, like, what are they doing? The teacher just said, line up and they're not Lining up. And I remember actually getting kind of nervous of like, did they not hear her? Did they not understand English somehow? Like, I. It was unfathomable to me that when a teacher said, okay, it's time to do this thing, that you wouldn't immediately do that thing. I was like that my whole life. And so that's actually been a problem for me, as you can imagine. Like, imagine how annoying it must be to be married to someone who has that. Who has that kind of ethos like I have. It's something I've had to really work on, of being a little more flexible, a little more relaxed about following rules, because no one loves a scold. No one wants to have their finger wagged at them. And I recognize this thing in myself a long time ago. And I've really tried hard to not be a nuisance to other people while still kind of being true to what I see as the way that the social order is kept.
- [25:01]
Terry Gross
How has that code worked for you working at networks? Because the new series is on Netflix, but most of your shows were on network tv, on broadcast tv, with their standards and practices and rules you have to obey, and executives you have to answer to, and your creative instincts might not be their instincts, especially if what they're going for is the biggest hit possible and what you're going for is a vision that you have.
- [25:28]
Michael Schur
My first job was at Saturday Night Live. Saturday Night Live is a big, messy swirl of craziness, like every. It's a big, rambling, 90 minute, long live variety show where part of the fun is that people are making mistakes and coloring outside the lines and kind of, you know, like, the actors start laughing in the middle of sketches sometimes if they're funny enough. So that was actually really good for me to be in a place at the beginning of my career where it was like, this is not rigid, right? This world is not about following rules so much. And I'm just very glad that I became a comedy writer and not an insurance claims adjuster, because I think if I were an insurance claims adjuster, I would be among the most insufferable people on the face of the earth, given my proclivities.
- [26:18]
Terry Gross
You work very closely with Greg Daniels, who created the American version of the Office, and you co created Parks and Rec with him. What are some of the things that you learned from him, from watching him work and from working with him that have stayed with you and helped guide you in your independent projects?
- [26:37]
Michael Schur
I mean, he's very professorial and he has a lot of, like, lessons. And there were times and I say this lovingly and positively, but there were times in the early going Mindy Kaling and BJ Novak and I had never really written on TV shows before, and he was sort of a professor who was giving lectures in some way about TV writing. And, you know, he used to say that there's like a hierarchy of importance in a story. And like the lowest level of importance is like one person who comes in for one line and says one thing and makes one joke and then leaves. And then the next level is like a minor character who has like a little scene here and there and you keep going up like a pyramid. And you get to to, like side characters who have B and C stories. And then you get to main characters and their love interests. And you have to always be thinking about how much real estate you give different characters and people. And also you have to think about there might be some really funny joke that you come up with that's really wacky and wild. And if you give that joke to a character you've never seen before who pops in and says the joke and leaves, it doesn't really affect the show. But if you give that same joke to the main character on the show, the person who the audience is the most invested in now, that joke might have an outsized effect on the fabric of the show because it's just a much more important statement coming from a much more important person. And you have to be really careful when you come up with jokes that sort of stretch the tone of the show or alter the themes of the show. You have to be really careful who says them and when and why. He just thinks so carefully and so studiously about what he's doing. He treats writing, specifically TV writing, with such care and consideration. I just can't say enough good things about him as an instructor in the world of writing.
- [28:32]
Terry Gross
If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Shore. He wrote for the Office and co created Parks and Recreation and Brooklyn nine nine and created the Good Place, as well as a new Netflix comedy series called A Man on the Inside. We'll talk more after a short break. This is FRESH air.
- [28:48]
Michael Schur
This is Ira Glass of this American life.
- [28:50]
David Biancouli
Each week on our show, we choose.
- [28:52]
Michael Schur
A theme, tell different stories on that theme.
- [28:55]
Terry Gross
All right.
- [28:56]
Michael Schur
I'm just going to stop right there. You're listening to an NPR podcast. Chances are you know our show. So instead I'm going to tell you we've just been on a run of really good shows lately, some big, epic, emotional stories and some weird, funny stuff, too. Download us this American Life. If you listen on the regular to the FRESH AIR podcast, then I know you'll love some of the other NPR podcasts, too. Here's why NPR is worth your time and money. You get perks like sponsor free listening bonus episodes, early access shop discounts and.
- [29:29]
David Biancouli
More for over 20 different NPR podcasts like this one.
- [29:33]
Michael Schur
Support what you love and stop hearing promos like this1@plus.npr.org this message comes from Wondery. Some of the craziest conspiracy theories are actually classified government operations. To hear more about these hidden truths, listen to Declassified Mysteries with Luke lamanna on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [29:57]
Terry Gross
This is FRESH air. Let's get back to my interview with Michael Schur. He wrote for the Office, co created Parks and Recreation and Brooklyn nine nine and created the Good Place. He also created the new Netflix comedy series A Man on the Inside, starring Ted Danson, who's hired by a private investigator to go undercover as a new resident in an assisted living facility to investigate what's happened to a ruby necklace, an heirloom that was presumably stolen from one of the residents. So after the office, when you and Greg Daniels decided to do another show together and you came up with Parks and Recreation, why did you want to set the show with the backdrop of a small town Pawnee, Indiana, and their Parks and Recreation Department and have the main character start off as the assistant director of the department?
- [30:47]
Michael Schur
Well, there were a couple things. One of them was that we the financial crisis was happening and it became clear that, like government in some way was going to just be much more involved in people's lives on a day to day basis than it had been for a while. And so it seemed like a natural kind of setting for a show for that, what became sort of the Obama era. But the other thing was that, like, I grew up in a a pretty sleepy suburban town in the northeast. And like the government was great. Like, the government was what filled the swimming pool and the public park that I swam in and organized the Little League. And, you know, my public school was great and my teachers were great. And I grew up kind of not understanding this weird demonization of the government that I, you know, I was a Reagan kid. So, like I grew up in a world where he was saying things like the scariest words in the English language were, I'm from the federal government, I'm here to help you. And all I saw was like, you know, we got hit by a hurricane once and like the Federal government showed up and the local government showed up and, like, helped people clear trees from the street. And I was like, what is everyone's problem with the government now? I'm older now, and I understand that the government has a lot of problems, but I just never understood why it was like this demonized force in America. And so I kind of thought, like, you know, we could create an entirely fictional town and talk about it through the world of the public sector and just show what I have always believed, which is like, the government is just a bunch of people in an office who, like, try to do stuff that will make the town better. And it, you know, just seemed like the right message for a TV show. And so that's what we went with.
- [32:29]
Terry Gross
The series ended in February of 2015. In June of 2015, Trump came down the escalator at Trump Tower and announced he was running for president. And of course, he won. Do you feel like you saw that coming in any way? Do you feel like the show reflected the possibility of that?
- [32:49]
Michael Schur
No to both. I think that that show is very much of a time and place. And, you know, there are people who, you know, like to, you know, use revisionist history to claim that it was always hopelessly naive or something, but that was the mood of the country at the time we were making that show, was this sort of optimism, this careful optimism. It wasn't wide eyed optimism, it was careful. Like, Leslie Knope was extremely optimistic about the possibility for making people's lives better, but she was also constantly confronted with the impossibility of that because people are grouchy. They didn't want her to do whatever she was doing. They were throwing, you know, obstacles in her way. We did whole seasons where there was a city council person played by John Glaser, who basically essentially lived to stop her from doing whatever she wanted to do. Like, we weren't pretending that everything was rosy and great. What we were trying to say was, it's a better way to go through life to be hopeful and optimistic than it is to be pessimistic. Now, if that show had started after June of 2015, when Trump came down the escalator, would it have been different? Probably significantly different. Like, the world shifts drastically all the time in terms of who's running the show. So I don't think we would have made the same show if it had started after that moment. But at the time that it was on, I think it's a message that I genuinely believed in and sort of hoped was what was happening was that there were Just people who were kind of gritting their teeth and rolling up their sleeves and trying to make everything a third of a percent better than it was the day before.
- [34:32]
Terry Gross
Coincidentally, I happen to have a clip that illustrates one of the points that you just made about how when she is in city council and is in the process of getting recalled, that the John Glaser character, a fellow member of city council, stands in her way. So here's Amy Poehler presiding over a city council meeting. Next on the docket is a vote to approve the Pawnee Eagleton Reservoir merger.
- [35:00]
Michael Schur
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
- [35:01]
David Biancouli
We're just goosing our water supply with fluoride.
- [35:04]
Michael Schur
I mean, come on. Are we really going to force every Pawnee resident to ingest a chemical we know nothing about? Fluoride is used by the communists to control our minds.
- [35:14]
Terry Gross
No, it's not. Fluoride can control mines.
- [35:16]
Michael Schur
Like you can use it to make ladies do stuff.
- [35:19]
David Biancouli
How am I the one that is.
- [35:21]
Terry Gross
Getting booted off of the city council? Okay, fluoride is safe. It is good for you, and almost every town in America uses it.
- [35:29]
David Biancouli
All right, you got me.
- [35:31]
Michael Schur
I don't want fluoride in the water because I'm a dentist and I like cavities. Yeah.
- [35:35]
Terry Gross
That is not a valid reason.
- [35:37]
Michael Schur
Pawnee's cavity problem is why a small town dentist like me can afford such a boss ride.
- [35:44]
Terry Gross
All right, now that Trump is likely to appoint Robert Kennedy Jr. In charge of all things health related and survived him, like, go crazy on Health. And RFK Jr. Wants to do away with fluoride in the water. Did you think back to this episode?
- [36:04]
Michael Schur
I did, yes. It has occurred to me the character Jeremy Jam, played by John Glaser, is a dentist, and he literally moved to the town where the show takes place because there's no fluoride in the drinking water and the number one industry is a candy factory. And he was like, cha Ching. Right? And you know, I have to say this. We did not think at the time that these. That the people that she encountered and their worldviews were particularly exaggerated. Like, even then in the Obama era, as you well remember, there were plenty of people who believed in conspiracy theories, who were utterly and completely self interested, who voted against things that were plainly good, and then even if they passed, took credit for them, even if they voted against them, like all that stuff has always happened, right? Like it's. That's not new to the Trump era. But in that particular case, yes, when RFK Jr. Was put in charge, or in theory, will be put in charge, of our drinking water and may remove fluoride. Like this is a public health maneuver that was that's considered one of the great successes in the history of public health. Just the simple addition of fluoride in terms of what it meant for kids specifically and tooth strength and all that sort of stuff. And so, yeah, like I have thought about that many times that we wrote what seemed to be like a fun slight parody of a self interested politician. And now we're sort of heading were careening toward that as a reality nationwide. Not ideal. I would say that's my official stance on this, Terry, is that it's not ideal.
- [37:46]
Terry Gross
So a very popular moment on Parks and Recreation is when two FRESH AIR critics were name checked, our TV critic David Biancooli and one of our music critics, Ken Tucker. And I want to play that clip and I'll just set it up briefly. So Leslie Knope, played by Amy Poehler, is on the local public radio or community radio station getting interviewed by one of the hosts. And here he is promoing what's coming up.
- [38:18]
David Biancouli
Coming up after the break, movie Reviews with Ken Tucker, who is filling in for David Biancooley, who is in New York filling in for Ken Tucker. Leslie, would you like to introduce the next segment?
- [38:31]
Terry Gross
Okay, now it's time for Jazz Plus Jazz equals Jazz. Today we have a recording of Benny Goodman played over a separate recording of Miles Davis.
- [38:47]
Michael Schur
Research shows that our listeners love jazz.
- [38:54]
Terry Gross
I love it. So do you remember who came up with that and why? And also I wanted to know, like, didn't you think, like, no one's gonna get this, like 1% of your audience is gonna get the joke?
- [39:07]
Michael Schur
It's a little rarefied, but I'll bet if you did a Venn diagram of Parks and Recreation watchers and NPR listeners, it's a pretty big intersection. It's not the craziest thing in the world. Right? And also the joke works. Whether you know who those people are or not, if you've never heard their names, it still is funny. It's a funny little MC Escher logic loop that we wrote out there. But there were a number of times that Leslie went on the local NPR station over the years and it was just our chance to like make little jokes about the reality of listening to npr. And that one, I don't remember who, I wish I remembered who pitched that. My guess would be that it was Ayesha Muhar, who was a writer on the show the whole time, who loved npr. And she always loved writing those scenes and pitching jokes for those scenes. She's a wonderful writer. She writes on Hacks now, which is another show that I executive produce. But it was always fun to do NPR jokes. It was always a favorite exercise. We had to kind of stop ourselves from having her go on too much because if we could have, we could have done it in every episode and had plenty to make fun of lovingly. Lovingly.
- [40:18]
Terry Gross
I should add, I should mention the voice of the public radio host was Dan Castellanada. Am I saying his name right?
- [40:24]
Michael Schur
Castellanata. Yeah. From the Simpsons. Yes.
- [40:26]
Terry Gross
Yeah. I see his name in credits all the time, but I never know how to pronounce it because he's the voice of Homer on the Simpsons. Anyways, thank you for that.
- [40:33]
Michael Schur
You're quite welcome.
- [40:34]
Terry Gross
So we need to take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Shore. He wrote for the Office and co created Parks and Recreation and Brooklyn Nine nine and created the Good Place as well as a new Netflix comedy series called A Man on the Inside. We'll talk more after a short break. This is FRESH air.
- [40:53]
Michael Schur
Hey, it's Peter Sagal, the host of Wait Wait, don't tell me Now.
- [40:55]
David Biancouli
If you like Wait Wait.
- [40:56]
Michael Schur
And you're looking for another podcast where.
- [40:59]
David Biancouli
The hosts take self deprecating jabs at them and invite important guests on who.
- [41:04]
Michael Schur
Have no business being there, then you should check out NPR's how to Do Everything.
- [41:08]
David Biancouli
It's hosted by two of the minds.
- [41:09]
Michael Schur
Behind Wait Wait, who literally sometimes put words in my mouth.
- [41:13]
David Biancouli
Find the how to Do Everything podcast wherever you are currently listening to me.
- [41:17]
Michael Schur
Go on about it on short wave. We know the human body is this amazing singular thing capable of facing down all kinds of infection and disease from managing UTIs to cancer to Long Covid. Our show is dedicated to destigmatizing our relationship to our bodies. Listen to the shortwave podcast from NPR. Every weekday, NPR's best political reporters come to you on the NPR Politics Podcast to explain the big news coming out of Washington, the campaign trail and beyond. We don't just want to tell you what happened, we tell you why it matters. Join the NPR Politics Podcast every single afternoon to understand the world through political eyes.
- [42:03]
Terry Gross
This is FRESH air. Let's get back to my interview with Michael Schur. He wrote for the Office and co created Parks and Recreation and Brooklyn 9 9. He created the Good Place and the new Netflix series A Man on the Inside. What's the TV that meant the most to you when you were growing up?
- [42:20]
Michael Schur
Monty Python and Monty Python's Flying Circus Saturday Night Live, Letterman, Cheers. So, you know, early to mid-80s comedy shows were the ones that I was raised on. My mom only let us watch when we were kids, only let us watch an hour of TV a week. So I had to really choose carefully. And then as I got older, obviously those rules were lessened in severity. So I started watching more and more and more comedy. But those are the main. The main influences on me were Letterman, Monty Python, snl, Cheers, and then later Conan, I think as I got into high school.
- [42:59]
Terry Gross
Do you think TV meant even more to you than otherwise might have because it was kind of taboo at home?
- [43:06]
Michael Schur
I don't know. It's a good question. I mean, possibly. I mean, I kind of respected the choice to limit the amount of TV that we watched. You know, it's funny to think about now when everyone is carrying a phone in their pocket that can show them any piece of video that has ever been created anywhere in the globe. But at the time, there was still this kind of vague sense for people in my parents generation that, like, TV rots your brain. And I've had this conversation with a lot of folks. My age is like a lot of writers. My age is like some people gorge themselves on TV and watched, you know, hours and hours and hours a day. And some people were like me, where like, their parents are very restrictive. I don't think there's any discernible difference in how people turned out, you know, which kind of gives me a little bit of hope when, you know, my son is watching TikTok all day and my daughter is, you know, watching YouTube tutorials about how to apply makeup or whatever. And my wife and I get worried, but it's like, well, this is the same stuff that people said about TV when we were kids. And the truth is, you know, I've talked to Amy Poehler about this. Amy Poehler watched tons of TV and was obsessed with tv. And I know a lot of writers and performers who felt like that and, and watched a ton of it. And I don't sense any real difference in the way that people's personality is developed based on how much TV they watch. So I'm kind of hoping the same applies to the modern era.
- [44:23]
Terry Gross
What are some of the most consequential changes you've seen in the world of creating television series? And I think in some ways you came in just on the cusp of a big change because the Office was really a game changer in terms of TV sitcoms.
- [44:41]
Michael Schur
Yeah, I mean, the biggest change, obviously, is just the shift to the Streaming model, You know, the Office, we did 28 episodes one year, I think, or maybe 30. You know, the typical season was 22 episodes or 24 episodes. And now a season of TV is eight half hours, usually. And that just completely changes the way you tell stories. Right. The advantage TV always had over movies was you could, in success, watch a set of characters live and change and grow over many, many, many years. And now you're talking about, you know, maybe two seasons of eight episodes, and then you're done. So TV writing is much closer to movie writing, I think, than it was when I was first breaking in. Those shows are rare. There are shows like Abbott elementary, certainly, and Ghosts that are on networks and still do 22 episode seasons. But, you know, that's the exception. The norm is you might get two seasons, maybe three, and you might get 10 episodes, but more likely eight. And that just completely alters the process of creating an idea and of executing the idea, and there's nothing you can do about it. That's the world we live in. But I do mourn a little bit the loss of the old system. I think during COVID people revisited old shows that had 200 episodes, like Friends and Cheers and whatever.
- [46:07]
Terry Gross
The Office.
- [46:08]
Michael Schur
Yeah, in the Office. Right.
- [46:09]
Terry Gross
Because it's still on Comedy Central.
- [46:12]
Michael Schur
Yeah. And you can sit. You could sit during COVID and watch an episode every night for five or six months. And that was incredibly valuable and I think brought people a lot of comfort. That's what we're losing, and that's what I mourn the most about the new system, is we're just sort of losing. What, to my mind, was the inherent advantage that TV storytelling had over movies or anything else.
- [46:37]
Terry Gross
I would imagine you have a lot of money. No, I'm not gonna ask the question you think I'm gonna ask. At least I don't think it's the question I'm gonna ask.
- [46:47]
Michael Schur
Oh, the timing of that was so perfect, though, the comedic timing, Terry. Comedic timing was a plus on that.
- [46:52]
Terry Gross
Thank you very much on that statement.
- [46:53]
Michael Schur
Yeah.
- [46:54]
Terry Gross
Okay, so a lot of people might be wondering, like, why are you still working? You have money. You don't have to work. So what is the meaning of work to you? What does work mean in your life?
- [47:05]
Michael Schur
Well, just by asking the question, you're sort of answering it. Right. Because. Meaning, the work that I do is incredibly fun. Like, why wouldn't I work? It's sitting in a room with a dozen really funny people writing stories and making jokes like that barely counts as work to me. It's not that it's not hard, and it's not that it doesn't come frequently with anxiety or disappointment in the way that any job would. But my goodness, if you can't enjoy yourself with the job I have, there's something deeply wrong with you. And by the way, there are many people who can't enjoy themselves with the job I do. And there are things that are deeply wrong with them. And that's why, you know, that's why there are a lot of therapists in Los Angeles. But I can't believe I get to do this. It's a miracle. It's incredible. And I do it because I love it and because it's so fun and not doing it. It's not like you're saying you've dug a lot of ditches in your life. Why do you keep going back and digging more ditches? It's like the things I do are inherently enjoyable and collaborative and wonderful. So why wouldn't I keep doing it? It wouldn't make any sense to stop.
- [48:16]
Terry Gross
Michael Schur, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much for this interview and for your shows.
- [48:22]
Michael Schur
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
- [48:24]
Terry Gross
It was forking great. Michael Shore created the new series A Man on the Inside. All eight episodes just started streaming on Netflix. If you'd like to catch up on Fresh Air interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Selena Gomez or Jimmy O. Yang, and our conversation with New Yorker editor David Remnick and former Washington Post editor Marty Barron about the ways in which Trump might carry out his threats against the media, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of Fresh Air interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to. Subscribe to our free newsletter@whyy.org FreshAir Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Sam Brigger. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorok, Anne Marie Boldonato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly CV Nesper and Sabrina Seawert. Thea Challoner directed Today's show. Our co host is Tonya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.
- [50:03]
Michael Schur
This week on our podcast, Here and Now anytime, have you had a frustrating conversation about politics with someone you disagree with lately? Most Americans have, according to a Pew survey from before the election, so I'm going to guess that number has only gone up. We're kicking off a series on finding common ground called Conversations across the Divide. Listen now on Here and Now, anytime, wherever you get your podcasts. Arguments happen, and our body's automatic response to conflict doesn't always help. We may start to feel anxious or angry, making it even more difficult for us to see eye to eye. Over time, that becomes contempt, and contempt is a very destructive interpersonal process. Hear how science can help us reframe and make the most of our conversations on the shortwave podcast from npr.