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Tanya Mosley
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tanya Mosley. My guest today, actor and playwright Anna Deavere Smith has played a national security advisor on the West Wing, a matriarch on black ish and a magazine ed on inventing Anna. But for more than 50 years, the work she keeps returning to is America itself. Smith pioneered what we now call documentary or verbatim theater. She interviews people, sometimes hundreds of them, caught inside a national fracture like a riot or epidemic. And then she stands alone on a stage and performs their exact words in her 1992 play Fires in the Mirror. She became Crown Heights, Brooklyn, in the aftermath of a deadly racial conflict in twilight Los Angeles, 1992. She became the city in the days after the Rodney King verdict. And in her 2016 play Notes from the Field, she examined the school to prison pipeline. Here she is as Letitia de Santiago, a parent from Stockton, California, on the lengths she takes to keep her kids out of trouble.
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Anna Deavere Smith
And I think I was a very strict mother. Anything involving my kids, I was very involved. I used to even go at nighttime and smell them. Yes. Oh, yes. Yes. To see if they were not drinking or smoking. Oh, yes, I did. So many things will keep my kids out of trouble. And thanks to the Lord, I think I did a good job.
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Tanya Mosley
Anna Deavere Smith's new play turns that lens on her own family. Basil Biggs premieres this month in Philadelphia. Written for the nation's 250th anniversary, the title character is her great, great grandfather, a free black man who became a prominent Gettysburg figure and a conductor of the Underground Railroad, helping to lead enslaved people to freedom. Smith first learned about him a decade ago While appearing on PBS's Finding youg Roots with Henry Louis Gates Jr. In this clip, Gates explains the remarkable role Biggs played in the war's aftermath.
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NPR Sponsor Announcer
Now this obituary, Anna, is for Celia Biggs Penn, Basil's daughter, who died in 1936. And it gives us a sense of what your ancestors did in the fateful
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Anna Deavere Smith
days right before the battle. Mrs. Penn, last of kin who fled 63 battle, dies. The only colored persons in this section. The Biggs family was warned to leave this section with the approach of the Confederate troops.
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NPR Sponsor Announcer
Okay, so, wow, your ancestors fled. Unbelievable, the Confederate invasion. Now remember, it's three days of Combat.
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Anna Deavere Smith
Right, right.
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NPR Sponsor Announcer
And Basil's farm was converted into a field hospital, huh.
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Anna Deavere Smith
By the Confederates. My God. That's a story right there. That's an amazing. That's a play.
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Tanya Mosley
Anna Deavere Smith, welcome back to FRESH air.
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Anna Deavere Smith
Thank you for having me.
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Tanya Mosley
That moment that we just heard, I think the audience, if they watch it, I think we all came to the same conclusion at the same time, including you, that it is a play and now it is exactly a play. Take us to that moment.
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Anna Deavere Smith
Sure. Well, so that was me with my friend Skip, aka Henry Louis Gates Jr. And it was a very powerful moment, I have to say. But maybe what's equally as interesting is that I did nothing about it. That was in 2014 when it aired on PBS. My family raced off to Gettysburg, and that would be my generation of cousins and sisters brushed off. And for some reason, I couldn't go. I mean, you know, I am, I'm nomadic. I go from pillar to post. And the only thing that was in the way, other gigs, that's what was in the way. And then Kathy Sachs, who is an extraordinary philanthropist and arts collector, has been putting together a remarkable festival of arts here in Philadelphia, which is where I am right now, called what Now? And she asked me to to write something for it. And because it was for the 250th anniversary and because it was in Pennsylvania, I thought, oh, this is the time for me to write about Basil Biggs.
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Tanya Mosley
What's a detail about Basil's life that completely surprised you? I mean, the entire story is pretty remarkable. But what was something that really stuck with you?
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Anna Deavere Smith
I would say a sort of very pertinent and revolutionary discovery was that he could not read and write, and neither could my great great grandmother, Mary Jackson Biggs, which meant that I had nothing to go on in his words, no diaries, no letters. Now, that wouldn't seem unusual for black people at that time, but the way I've worked for 50 years is to study every single, not just word, but utterance that a person makes in order to put together an American story. So I had no document, nothing documented. I had photographs. That was it. And of course, you know, the Civil War has been written about extensively, as has the battle of Gettysburg. So I could sort of put together the facts of the era, but I have not. I don't have a word out of the mouth of my great, great grandfather or his children. So this called for me to leave my documentary form. It allows me to still be the Americanist that I believe I am. But I had to do a Different kind of writing, a different kind of inquiry.
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Tanya Mosley
Yeah. How did you bring him to life?
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Anna Deavere Smith
I was really terrified, honestly, you know, staring at the blank page. I'd had a fabulous time in Gettysburg, you know, made great friends there. Felt absolutely at home in Gettysburg. Spent a lot of time in the archives, but I still didn't know how to put the words on paper. And what the best thing that happened was that I had been able to visit the farm, his first farm in Gettysburg. The farm is still there. The house is still there. The barn is still there. The creek is still there. And we believe that that's where he did a lot of his Underground Railroad activity. This is the house that was taken over by the Confederates and turned into the Confederate hospital. There is still blood on the floor. Walking around the barn, walking around the farm, really gave me the rooting that I needed to start writing. I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't had a chance to walk around that farm. And so it's also interesting that especially for a black man of that era, all three of the houses that he lived in in Gettysburg are still standing.
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Tanya Mosley
He is the reason Lincoln had ground to stand on in that fateful November. He reburied the Union dead.
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NPR Sponsor Announcer
Right.
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Tanya Mosley
So that the cemetery could be dedicated, so that the Gettysburg Address could be delivered.
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Anna Deavere Smith
That's right. And the Underground Railroad also, obviously, is a story that one has to put together shreds for. It's underground. Right. But the reason that he's commemorated now, the reason he's honored now in Gettysburg, what happened was that when word got out that the Confederates were coming to Gettysburg, you know, now we think about these things, and of course you go to the battlefield, but, you know, it was a farm town. Right. And when word was out that the Confederates were coming, black people had every reason to believe that they were going to be snatched and taken back to the south whether they were free or not. This had happened. A massive invasion and raid had happened nearby in Chambersburg. So my great great grandfather took his family, my great great grandmother and the children away. When they came back, really just a few days later, the farm had been taken over by the Confederates. They had claimed the house as their hospital. And I believe that Basil Biggs had lost everything. I mean, he couldn't read and write, but he was very entrepreneurial. He had a robust farm. He had a good business as a veterinarian. And I think that he took the grisly job of disinterring the Union dead and reburying them. And cleaning up the 7,000 dead bodies with a group of other black men that he brought together. I believe that he did that because he was broke. Now, it could be that he had a huge civic responsibility, I'm not sure. But they started that in October, and they had it in good enough shape that by November, when Lincoln came to consecrate what becomes the National Soldier Cemetery, it was possible to do. The irony is that at least then, black Union soldiers were not buried in that cemetery. And so Basil Biggs was a part of an organization called the Sons of Goodwill, who created a separate cemetery at that time for the black Union dead.
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Tanya Mosley
Did you ever consider playing Biggs yourself like a one woman show? Because this is a traditional play with a cast of actors.
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Anna Deavere Smith
I'm very excited about these actors. And the whole part of casting the play was huge, you know, trying to find who would play these characters. And one actor walked in and looked exactly like my cousin Basil Biggs, and like my brother. And there's a scene in the play that is just a real sort of contentious moment between Basil and this young man called Calvin. And I have to tell you, I just burst out crying in the auditions, sobbing, because it just reminded me of discord between my brother and my father. And I made a very intentional decision in 1980 when many of us who were not white, heterosexual, presenting males were encouraged, not just invited, but encouraged to write about ourselves. And I made the opposite move. And I said, I'm not gonna write about myself, not gonna write about my family. I'm gonna chase America in terms of that which is not me. And I did that for 50 years. And so to have this kind of homecoming is very powerful in so many ways. And I think to see it outside of myself rather than trying to embody it, is part of the power.
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Tanya Mosley
This is FRESH air, and today I am talking with actor and playwright Anna Deavere Smith. Her new play, Basil Biggs, traces the life of her great, great grandfather in the Civil War era, Gettysburg. It premieres this month at the Wilmet Theater in Philadelphia. Written for the nation's 250th anniversary, Smith was born in Baltimore in 1950 and came up through the theater as a classically trained actor. Somewhere along the way, she set down a different path. Instead of playing invented characters, she started turning a tape recorder on real Americans and performing their exact words, becoming a pioneer of what we now call documentary or verbatim theater. Anna, I want to talk a little bit about verbatim theater because you came up, as I said, as an actor and then you did this unusual thing. Instead of looking for roles, you started collecting people. What sparked that shift?
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Anna Deavere Smith
You know, I think everything starts with a question. And I feel, for example, that education should be about us discovering our questions rather than seeking answers. And I had that extraordinary opportunity in a Shakespeare class when I first started studying acting. I didn't really begin that pursuit until I was 22 years old and our Shakespeare teacher on the first day, and I was very worried about Shakespeare class. And it's about speaking Shakespeare. It's not Shakespeare. Scholarship made this particular suggestion that we expect the rhythm of Shakespeare to be like this. Da da da da da da da da da da. What we call iambic pentameter. And she suggested in her argument that when we are trying to speak Shakespeare, we. We just speak the words as they are written, right? We don't add extra emotion or anything in making that argument. She said, but if there is an upside down rhythm in the second beat, this tells you that something is awry with the character. So that little other beat's called a trochee. So if the rhythm goes da da da da da da da da da da, that means there's something unsettled. And she gave the example of the end of the play King Lear, when Lear has lost everything, and he says, never, never, never, never, never. Everything's upside down. So when I was in the conservatory, I was trying to figure out, how did that happen? How could emotions be captured in rhythms? And I decided that I would see if I could listen in real life to how people's rhythms changed and if those changes would be indicative not only of disarray in a story that individual was telling me, but also in the world around them. And so this is one of those random things. I was at a cocktail party and standing next to, like a wallflower, another woman was standing next to me. And she asked me what I did, what was my work? And I never to this day say I'm an actor. Like, even on a plane, if somebody says, what do you do? I never say I'm an actor. Because then you have that very embarrassing question. Well, what have I seen you in?
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Tanya Mosley
Right, yeah.
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Anna Deavere Smith
What do you say? So I said. I said, well, I'm trying to learn something about. Imagine at a cocktail party, I'm trying to learn something about language and identity. And I said, and I'm trying to figure out how to get people to break their linguistic patterns when they speak. And she said, well, I'm a linguist.
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NPR Sponsor Announcer
Ah.
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Anna Deavere Smith
And she said, I'm going to give you three questions that will guarantee this can happen in the course of an hour. And the questions were, have you ever come close to death? Have you ever been accused of something you didn't do? And do you know the circumstances of your birthday? And so the first show that I made was with other actors. I only played one part, and I literally walked up to people on the streets of New York or wherever they were, and I said, I know an actor who looks like you. If you'll give me an hour of your time, I will invite you to see yourself perform. This was in 1980. And so I talked to the lifeguard at the gym. I talked to the lady up the street who had a secondhand clothes store. I talked to somebody who was in a fancy beauty parlor. And I made a show in which I would talk to somebody for an hour about whatever they want to talk about. Hair, you know, swimming lanes. And somewhere in that, I would ask those questions. And lo and behold, their language took on these different patterns. And so I trained myself how to listen by doing that. And then when you think about it, since I've gone to do plays about things that are upside down, are in disarray, are not iambic pentameters, but are troches, then it is the case that people speak in disrupted sentences, and they struggle to make sense, which means that they actually make these gorgeous, as far as I'm concerned, sort of architectures of language. And I'm very interested in those things, I will call them those moments. And that's what I perform.
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Tanya Mosley
I'm sure you've heard a lot of people say, oh, that takes a lot of bravery for you to just walk up to people on the street and just ask them questions. What were those early responses to you? Because you weren't talking to people on behalf of, say, a news organization or something tangible specific that people know that this would go toward.
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Anna Deavere Smith
Well, I think, you know, it was kind of a curious thing, right, for some girl to, you know, ask you that, or. I was doing a lot of temp work at the time. And the person I performed was Julia, who was at JCPenney. We worked in a basement. My desk was right next to hers, and I would hear Julia talking on the phone. And I thought, I've got to get an interview with Julia. So I know in advance of somebody who I thought was very, very interesting. And I think, because nobody had ever asked them before. And by the way, this isn't like now, where people are going around taking selfies and pictures of each other. This is when my tape recorder was. You know, it was like this Panasonic thing that was probably almost a foot long.
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Tanya Mosley
Yeah, right.
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Anna Deavere Smith
So people weren't walking around with iPhones that they could record on. So I think it was like this odd thing, a rather charming girl asking them to do, and they said yes.
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Tanya Mosley
My own curiosity, what was so interesting about Julia on the phone at JCPenney
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Anna Deavere Smith
in Facebook, she was. Well, see, she was just like, you know, she was one of those people who was. She was so. Oh, she had a story about somebody who just had a meltdown on a bus going through the tunnel, the Lincoln Tunnel in New York. And she, as often, was so beautiful about black people in particular is she acted out, like, all the people. Right. So that was so great, you know. And I'll have to tell you another sort of epiphany I had about Julia. So I said, I only played one part in that play. It was Julia. And she came. It was so exciting to see the people come to see themselves performed in this loft in New York. And Julia waited for me with her friends. And as we were walking down Leonard street, and her friend Julia, girl, you were the star. Girl, you were the star. And I thought, yeah, the character should be the star, not the actor. Right. And so, I mean, she just was one of those black women with a great sense of humor and a great ability to tell a story.
- [19:24]
Tanya Mosley
Oh, see this story. Okay. I was wondering, you know, a lot of your performances remind me of an oral tradition. I know some black households have, like, the way people slide in and out of imitating others to kind of drive a point home. Did you see that growing up? What was the storytelling tradition?
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Anna Deavere Smith
Oh, I mean, Ms. Johnson next door,
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Tanya Mosley
who
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Anna Deavere Smith
weighed 400 pounds, couldn't move very far and would, you know, give me 25 cents to go down, buy her some fat back from the grocery store. Mr. Zalman's grocery store. And then I would sit on her porch and hear a story. And she had. And my maternal grandfather, who married Virginia Biggs, was a fantastic storyteller, as was my maternal grandmother. So I'd do anything for a story when I was little. And you're right, there's that oral tradition. My Aunt Esther is the first person I ever interviewed sitting in her kitchen all my life, I listened to her. But the first actual interview I did, knowing that I wanted to create this kind of theater, I tested it out on Honest.
- [20:38]
Tanya Mosley
Her guest today is actor and playwright Anna Deavere Smith. We'll be right back after a break. I'm Tanya Mosley. And this is FRESH air.
- [20:47]
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- [21:17]
Anna Deavere Smith
Every episode of it's been a minute. NPR's what's Happening in Culture podcast starts by asking three questions.
- [21:23]
Larry David
Who?
- [21:24]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
How? Why? Now?
- [21:25]
Anna Deavere Smith
If the culture's asking it, we're talking about it at npr. We stand for your right to be curious and indulge your cultural curiosity. Follow It's Been A minute wherever you get your podcasts and we'll break down the zeitgeist y topics that are filling your feed.
- [21:40]
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You know, Every day on Up First, NPR's Golden Globe nominated morning news podcast. We bring you three essential stories. the heart of each story our what really happened, what really mattered, what happens next. At npr, we stand for your right to be curious and to follow the facts. Follow up first wherever you get your podcasts and start your day knowing what matters and why.
- [22:05]
Tanya Mosley
This is FRESH air. I'm Tonya Moseley, and my guest today is the actor, playwright and professor Anna Deavere Smith. Over the last four decades, she invented and defined what's known as documentary or verbatim theater. She's interviewed hundreds of people, then performed them on stage. Fires in the Mirror about the Crown Heights conflict made her a Pulitzer Prize finalist. Los Angeles, 1992 about the city after the Rodney King verdict earned her two Tony nominations, she went on to write Let Me Down Easy about the body and the American health care system and notes from the field about the school to prison pipeline. Her new play is called Basil Biggs, and it's the story of her own great, great grandfather, a free black who played an important role in the Civil War Battle of Gettysburg. This thing that you do, this verbatim theater, I have heard you describe it as you're borrowing people's stories with their permission. And there's something very specific about the people you choose. How do you decide who to interview?
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Anna Deavere Smith
Well, who to interview is just who could, you know, say my play Let Me Down Easy was about health care, but it was also about the vulnerability of the human body to the State to disease. And so I did extensive interviewing. I went to, for example, South Africa during the AIDS crisis when Mbeki was an AIDS denialist. I went to Rwanda 10 years after the genocide, sort of broken societies and talked to people. And I have an abstract idea of the problem that I'm trying to investigate, and I don't have a story. And then in the process of doing the interviews, and more importantly, in the process of being in the rehearsal room, I find a through line of a story.
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Tanya Mosley
Where did the inspiration come for? Let me down easy.
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Anna Deavere Smith
Dr. Ralph Horowitz was the head of internal medicine at Yale School of Medicine, and he invited me in the late 90s to come to Yale Medical School and to interview doctors and patients and to perform at something called Medical Grand Rounds as a way of showing the doctors that they don't listen. And I kept saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And at first I thought it was because I was just too intimidated to be around all those doctors. And he didn't give up. And when I finally went and started doing the interviews of patients, I realized the reason I was really worried was because I knew it would have something to do with death. And I did this performance at Medical Grand Rounds, and I performed doctors and some people who had been very, very sick. And after that performance, maybe a year later, he asked me to come back and do it in another situation. And I did. And those same patients, they were waiting eagerly backstage to say hello. And I thought, now why would you want to come to see a show again that's dealing with a moment in your life where you almost died? And it dawned on me, because dying or not, something about the performance made it all real in a good way and solid in a good way. Because this was before the big health care conversation. But once the health care conversation, as we started to approach Obama and the whole conversation of health care starts to become real, then I realized I have a real sort of political place to put this excursion, really around death into a frame. And that's what made me continue to work on it. And also because, you know, people say, oh, how did you get this person to talk to you? Or how did you get this person to trust you? I say, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm looking for the people who are screaming from a mountaintop, and I just happen to be walking by. And when you go into a palliative care unit, you sit with somebody who's dying. If they have the strength, it's a scream from the mountaintop. They want to be heard. They want to communicate. And that's very dramatic and very stage worthy.
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Tanya Mosley
In Let Me Down Easy, there's a person that you embody, Brent Williams. He's a rodeo bull rider from Idaho. You talk about him quite a bit over the last 20 years. He was someone who really taught you what seems like a lot of lessons. But I want to play a little clip because he talked to you about the ways bull riding has wrecked his body, that he has this one story that a bull shoved his face through metal chutes, for example. And in this clip of your performances, Williams, you're talking about his health care deductible.
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Anna Deavere Smith
Yeah, I got insurance, Blue Cross of Idaho, family policy, 260 bucks a month cover all of us. Then we got a $7,500 deductible, which is stupid. I mean, you know, we don't ever meet that. I mean, all this paying money, then we got to pay 7,500 before they meet it. They're just trying to rape us, like all the people that got the money. They rape the poor until pretty soon, or they rape the middle class till the middle class becomes poor. Then they're going to start raping the rich, and they're going to. They're gonna break the whole country, I think. But basically, I'm an optimist.
- [27:55]
Tanya Mosley
That was my guest, Anna Deavere Smith, as Brent Williams in Let Me Down Easy. And when you watch this, there is a lot of physicality to that performance. You're wearing a cowboy hat, your legs are wide, you're strutting across the stage. And these are parts of the story as well. That body language. What is it telling? What is it telling you that words don't convey?
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Anna Deavere Smith
First of all, if my performance is attentive to detail, then you see the choreography. You don't know why you're drawn to that person. But if we were to sit down and break it down for you and show you the choreography, you'd know why. I mean, with Brent, he was kind of outrageous. You know, I actually invited Brent to New York a couple of times, and he's a very different person than the sort of artists that I hang out with. Very, very conservative. But, you know, he's a perfect example of someone who's game, you know, who comes with goodwill. He knows. And I have. He was in my apartment dancing cheek to cheek with the astute legal scholar Patricia Williams.
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Tanya Mosley
What?
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Anna Deavere Smith
Wow. And so it's about goodwill. You know, we talk about how do we get over these differences. It's like he doesn't agree with anybody. In this case, sitting around to dinner and then dancing afterwards and people had drank enough, you know, he didn't agree. Nobody agrees with Brent, but he felt at home in my house. Right.
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Tanya Mosley
You like talking to people that you don't agree with?
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Anna Deavere Smith
Well, not necessarily all the time for the purpose of putting them in a play. Yes. So, you know, we have to admit that that's also different in a way from real life. Right. I can do things in my art that I'm not be able to do in my life. So with Brent, I went to the National Rodeo finals with him and standing around with all of his friends, you know, swigging shivas and telling stories about women that weren't so great. Right. Would I be doing that just for fun? Probably not.
- [30:02]
Tanya Mosley
Today I'm talking with actor and playwright Anna Deavere Smith about her new play, Basil Biggs. It's about her own great, great grandfather, a free black man who reburied thousands of Union dead at Gettysburg and prepared the ground where Lincoln delivered his famous address. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH air.
- [30:24]
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- [30:47]
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This week on up first, President Trump dispatched J.D. vance to peace talks in Switzerland. Now the U.S. and Iran say they have a roadmap for peace. We'll have the latest on any overnight developments. Plus, it's another week of primary elections. We'll discuss the results and what they mean for November. Listen to up first every morning for the top three stories you need to know to start your day on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [31:12]
Anna Deavere Smith
Your favorite toys are back in Toy Story 5, and they're facing some new competition, the dreaded tablet.
- [31:18]
Tanya Mosley
How will Buzz and Woody handle kids glued to screens?
- [31:21]
Anna Deavere Smith
And how does this new movie compare to others in the franchise?
- [31:24]
Tanya Mosley
We get into it on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour. Listen via the NPR app or wherever
- [31:29]
Anna Deavere Smith
you get your podcasts.
- [31:33]
Tanya Mosley
This is FRESH air. And today I am talking with actor and playwright Anna Deavere Smith. Her new play, basil Biggs, traces the life of her great, great grandfather in the Civil War era, Gettysburg. It premieres this month at the Wilmer Theater in Philadelphia. Written for the nation's 250th anniversary, Smith's earlier plays Include Fires in the Mirror, Twilight, Los Angeles, 1992, and her 2016 play, Notes from the. I want to talk briefly about the choices you made. In Notes from the Field, you showcased a wide range of people, civil rights leaders and high school students and prisoners like Denise Dodson. She was an inmate at the Maryland Correctional Institute for Women, and she was serving time for murder. And I'm going to play a clip. Here she is talking about her children and the circumstances of her crime. You playing her?
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Anna Deavere Smith
Listen, I had six children. Now I have five. One of them died since I've been here, the oldest being 34, the youngest being 21. I had my youngest child when I was in a Baltimore detention center. I've been here 23 years. Well, my boyfriend, my former boyfriend, because we wasn't together at the time, shot and killed a guy who tried to rape me. Well, they didn't consider an accomplice. I got the same charge as he did, first degree murder. I think it's fair. You talking about somebody's life, whether it's in your control or not, somebody's life has been taken. So I do think it's fair. But I think that if I had had a better education, I would have been more upright, so to speak, you know, because without that education, I always felt less than. And I think if I had had that education, I would have known that I am somebody. I am a good person. Hmm.
- [33:55]
Tanya Mosley
That was my guest, Anna Deavere Smith as inmate Denise Dodson. I can almost hear your questions in her answers. Anna, of course, like the questions you asked to elicit those answers. But it's her demeanor. She was one of several black women and girls at the heart of this Notes from the Field. What drew you to put people like her at the center of this story?
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Anna Deavere Smith
Well, the story really was about looking at the pressures or what we call what are the things that pull us away from giving people and education, and why, when they are unable to fit into maybe the sorting mechanism of education, do they end up incarcerated? And I heard a chilling statistic that there's something like in the 70% of black and brown kids that can't really read at the level they need to read.
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Tanya Mosley
Just across the board in the United States.
- [35:09]
Anna Deavere Smith
Yeah. And so we have to ask deeply, deeply, what's in the way of that? And Notes from the Field was looking at education and the things that pull people away from school and the things that pull school away from people. And with Denise, you know, of course, sitting in a prison, I mean, she's aware of being under surveillance all the time. You know, she's probably about a year maybe from going for the review board again. She's very conscious of every single thing she's saying. And there was extraordinary humility in Denise and emotional power. And her job in prison was to train service dogs. And she talked about how dogs are more decent than people and even that the amount of attention that she gives those dogs to train them. What if we gave the same type of attention to children? And the last thing I'll say about this is, even if you go back to Thomas Jefferson and you look at his plan in the notes from the state of Virginia on the state of Virginia, his plan for education was to find the excellent ones and throw out the rubbish. The word rubbish is in that document. And that's just talking about white men. And so our system has always been one of sorting. Let's sort out the people that we don't want to be bothered with.
- [37:05]
Tanya Mosley
You ended up studying at the American Conservatory Theater, this theater community that you then became a part of. You know, the way we think about theater today is always talking about it in terms of keeping it alive. And this sounds like this was a vibrant place for you.
- [37:22]
Anna Deavere Smith
Well, first of all, my first job was for a black theater company that had been started by Ed Bullen's great black playwright. And it was called the Grassroots Theater Company. And I went in there to see if there was something I could do. And they said, well, you could be the stage manager. I said, well, I don't know how to do that. Oh, you'll be fine. You look like you could be good. I was their so called stage manager. And I had a crisis when I decided to go to school at the American Conservatory Theater, which would be like the white people's theater, you know, in the middle of town that was very, you know, resourced and not to work anymore at the Grassroots Theater Company. But the American Conservatory Theater had a company of 50 actors. And that's where I was trained. So that was an entirely different type of time than now. And you know, we always say the theater is dying, but I think it's that it has another economic model. Now. Those were the days when the idea was to have a theater in your town that was the sort of gem, the cultural gem of a town like a symphony. And. And that changed when those theaters started to see themselves as breeding places for Broadway. And so I would say it's not that the theater is dead, it's that it had a different economic model. And we never know when that may change again.
- [38:54]
Tanya Mosley
I mean, you're deep in the Basil Big story right now, but is there an American story you have your sights on for the future that's been swirling in your head that you're dying to expl?
- [39:09]
Anna Deavere Smith
No, because I think that Basil Biggs story about approaching the Civil War, about being a part of restoring his town after this massive, massive catastrophe and following through to touch the American promise and going through the 15th Amendment, which the play takes us through that, I think there are many things about that that are still unfinished business in our country right now. And so I'm pleased to be able to see what lessons I can learn, the actors can learn and the audience can learn by looking at that moment in history and looking at this particular family and how they came through it.
- [40:05]
Tanya Mosley
Anna Deavere Smith, thank you so much for this conversation and your time. This has been a real pleasure.
- [40:11]
Anna Deavere Smith
My pleasure. Thank you so much to you and
- [40:14]
Tanya Mosley
your producers, actor and playwright Anna Deavere Smith. Her new play, basil Biggs, debuts at the Wilmer Theatre in Philadelphia this weekend. Coming up, TV critic David Biancooli reviews Larry David's new HBO series. This is FRESH AIR.
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- [41:07]
Tanya Mosley
How does AI affect my energy? Bill at npr, we are here for
- [41:12]
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- [41:18]
Tanya Mosley
because the more you ask, the more
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- [41:25]
Tanya Mosley
HBO presents a new seven part sketch comedy series that's an irreverent look at American history just in time for the country's 250th anniversary. It's called Life Larry and the Pursuit of Unhappiness, and it stars Larry David and comes from Higher Ground, Barack and Michelle Obama's production company. Our TV critic David Biancooli has this review.
- [41:48]
David Biancolli
One of the first things the Obamas did for TV after forming their Higher Ground production company was build a series around a singular American voice. That voice was studs Terkel, the Chicago writer whose 1974 working class oral history Working was a major influence on the young Barack Obama. In 2023, Obama saluted and continued Turkle's vision by hosting and narrating what We Do All Day, a very impressive, very serious four part Netflix documentary series. Now Higher Ground is building another series around a singular American voice. The results are equally impressive, but much less serious because this time the voice belongs to Larry David, America's unofficial national curmudgeon. He's turned being disgruntled into a massive fortune and into a lengthy, brilliant comedy career that includes Seinfeld, Curb youb Enthusiasm, and now Life Larry and the Pursuit of Unhappiness this new series is created and written by Larry David and Jeff Schaefer. They're also executive producers, as are the Obamas. Shaffer directs and is well tuned to Larry David's rhythms and sensibilities. Over the decades. Schaeffer wrote dozens of episodes of Seinfeld and wrote and directed even more installments of Curb. Their new collaboration is much more heavily scripted than ad libbed and is expensively mounted. Costumes, sets, even action sequences all look first rate. But even when Larry David is part of a silent tableau recreating the Continental Congress wearing a powdered wig while Barack Obama opens the show as the host, Larry can't stay silent for long.
- [43:37]
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But what truly makes America unique is the fact that we've always been a work in progress. We're not perfect. We can be irascible, petty, selfish, cheap, and let's face it, some of us will always find something to complain about. But as Americans, we have always found a way to overcome these naysayers, these deeply unpleasant people who stood in the way of progress. These miserable, intolerable. Did I mention petty, wretched.
- [44:08]
Larry David
Hey, none of that's in the script,
- [44:14]
David Biancolli
Larry and the Pursuit of Unhappiness is subtitled An Almost History of America and provides just that. Each sketch, introduced by narrator Samuel L. Jackson, starts with historical fact, then veers wildly and enjoyably off the rails. In every sketch, the guest stars get the vibe David is after and add to it effortlessly. The opening sketch imagines that founding father Robert Livingston, played by Larry David, suggested some rather unusual rules for the Declaration of Independence before Thomas Jefferson took over the job of writing it. Henry Winkler plays John Hancock and Chris Parnell plays Benjamin Franklin, who's reading some of Livingston's outrageous ideas to the assembled Congress.
- [45:00]
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Here's another gem.
- [45:01]
Larry David
No sharing desserts.
- [45:03]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
If you want a dessert, order it. None of this.
- [45:05]
Larry David
Pass it around we're not animals, Mr. Franklin, all eating out of a trough.
- [45:10]
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We could all have our own forks.
- [45:11]
Larry David
Then we'll all take bites, put the forks in our mouths, put it back in the pie after it's been in our mouths, Mr. Franklin. It's unsanitary sometimes.
- [45:20]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
I don't want a whole slice of pie. I just want to taste a pie.
- [45:23]
Larry David
Get your own damn piece of pie, Franklin, if you.
- [45:27]
David Biancolli
The next sketch jumps forward a full century, from 1776 to 1876, and has Larry David as Alexander Graham Bell unveiling his newest invention, the telephone, to a small, invited group of guests. The guests, though, are quick to offer suggestions of their own.
- [45:45]
Larry David
My assistant, Watson, is in another building, out of sight and sound. But with this device, I will be able to communicate with him as if he was standing right next to me. I will pick up the phone on my side and it will ring.
- [46:06]
Anna Deavere Smith
What kind of ring?
- [46:08]
Larry David
Normal ring. It's just a ring. It's a ring. It's a typical ring.
- [46:13]
Tanya Mosley
Maybe there could be a menu of rings that people could choose from. Oh, yes. I would like mine to sound like a doorbell.
- [46:19]
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I'd like mine to sound like a
- [46:21]
Anna Deavere Smith
clown horn or perhaps a bicycle ring.
- [46:23]
Larry David
You know, all wonderful ideas, but hardly the point. The point is I'll be able to communicate with someone who is miles away.
- [46:33]
Tanya Mosley
What if I'm at a piano recital,
- [46:35]
Anna Deavere Smith
say, and I don't want it to
- [46:36]
Tanya Mosley
ring, so it just vibrates like a Jew's harp in your pocket.
- [46:41]
Larry David
Oh, that's just a fascinating idea.
- [46:45]
Tanya Mosley
What if you could send short?
- [46:46]
Larry David
What if you invent your own? Go off and invent your own. That's not this. You want something that vibrates? Go. Go invent it. This is all nonsense.
- [46:58]
David Biancolli
Yes, it is all nonsense. Even with some punchlines that are sharp and pointed, it's all so whimsical, it's wonderful. Other sketches in the first show include trench warfare during World War I and Rosa Parks on a Birmingham bus ride, predating her famous bus boycott. HBO wants a lot of the sketch details kept secret, and I'm fine with that. But every sequence brings its own unexpected joys. Hey, isn't that Richard Kind and Michael Chiklis and Sean Hayes, Kathryn Hahn, Bill Hader and John Hamm, and Jerry Seinfeld from Seinfeld. And Jeff Garland, Susie Essman and J.B. smoove from Curb, all joining in. Yes, it is. And there are others aboard, too, as unpublicized special surprises. Upcoming sketches are based on everything from the Lewis and Clark expedition to the Army McCarthy hearings and the moon landing and are equally hilarious. I've seen enough to say that Larry David isn't just having great fun with history, he's adding to his own with yet another high concept comedy series, Home Run.
- [48:09]
Tanya Mosley
David Biancooley reviewed Life, Larry and the Pursuit of Unhappiness. The series premieres on HBO tomorrow. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with Atlantic staff writer Helen Lewis about the rise of masculinism, or with actor and activist Laverne Cox on her new memoir about her life, career and the attack on transgender rights, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of Fresh Air interviews and to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers recommendations on what to watch, read and listen to. Subscribe to our free newsletter@why.org fresh air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly CB Nesper. Teresa Madden directed today's show with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Mosley.
- [49:32]
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- [49:50]
David Biancolli
on
- [49:50]
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consider this NPR's afternoon news podcast. We cover everything from politics to the economy to the world. But every story starts with a question. At npr, we stand for your right to be curious, to make sense of the biggest story of the day and what it means for you. Follow. Consider this Wherever you get your podcasts this week, Jesuit priest Fr. Greg Boyle examines how our sense of self influences our capacity for forgiveness.
- [50:20]
Anna Deavere Smith
We're all wounded and we're broken and how do we become friends with our wounds so that we can enter into relational wholeness with each other?
- [50:29]
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Find out where divine grace comes from on Ye Gods with Scott Carter. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.