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- [00:00]
Announcer
This message comes from Capital One Commercial Bank. Access comprehensive solutions from a top commercial bank that prioritizes your needs today and goals for tomorrow. Learn more@Capital1.com Commercial Member FDIC this is FRESH AIR.
- [00:17]
Dave Davies
I'm Dave Davies. Today we remember James Burroughs, one of the most respected and sought after directors of TV comedies. In over five decades, he directed more than 1,000 episodes, episodes of Taxi, Cheers, Friends, Frasier, Will and Grace and many other sitcoms. Burroughs died June 19 at the age of 85. A statement by the Directors Guild of America described him as an incredibly generous colleague, sharing his wisdom and warm humor with all he worked with. In a statement, his family said Burroughs understood that great comedy was never simply about laughter. It was about humanity, connection and truth. We're going to Listen to Terry's 2006 interview with James Burroughs in a few minutes, but first we have this appreciation by our TV critic, David Biancooley.
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Narrator/Reporter
James Burroughs was born in LA in 1940 but didn't live there long. His family moved to New York when he was 5. His father, Abe Burroughs, had written for radio and television, but found his biggest success on Broadway as a director and especially as a writer. Abe Burroughs wrote the books for the musicals Guys and Dolls, how to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying and Cancan. His son James became a director, too, but went back to Los Angeles to do so. His big break was directing an episode of the Mary Tyler Moore show, after which James Burroughs landed jobs directing multiple episodes of many popular sitcoms of the 1970s, including the the Bob Newhart show, the Tony Randall Show, Laverne and Shirley and Taxi. By the time he co created Cheers with Glenn and les Charles In 1982, James Burroughs was considered the best sitcom director in the business, a title he maintained for decades. The reasons were obvious. James Burroughs made one of the most significant improvements to the sitcom genre since I Love Lucy popularized the three camera format of shooting before a studio audience. Burroughs added a fourth camera, which allowed him to capture more close ups and frame the action as naturally as he could. Burroughs was a master at setting the tone for a new series, working with young actors to shape their characters and find just the right comic flow. Over his career, he won 11 Emmy awards and directed a staggering number of TV pilots, specifically 75. But it isn't just the quantity of premiere episodes directed by James Burroughs that's so amazing, it's the quality. He directed the introductory episodes of Taxi, Cheers and Frasier, not just the original 1993 Frasier, but the 2023 remake as well 30 years later, he also directed the first episodes of the Big Bang Theory, Night Court, Wings News Radio, Third Rock from the Sun, Dharma and Greg, Two and a Half Men, Friends and And Will and Grace, and sometimes James Burroughs stuck around for quite a while for more than 200 episodes of both Will and Grace and Cheers and 75 episodes of Taxi. For me, the absolute best example of Jim Burroughs's gifts as a TV director came in a 1979 episode of Taxi written by Glenn and Les Charles. It was an episode written to showcase Christopher Lloyd, who had guest starred in a previous episode as Reverend Jim, a hippie preacher from the 60s who was laid back, confused, and dealing with a long history of recreational drug use. At the time, Reverend Jim was an outrageous character to introduce to a primetime TV show. But Taxi already had triumphed by mixing types of comic styles that shouldn't have worked. Judd Hirsch, Tony Danza, Mary Lou Henner, Andy Kaufman, Jeff Conaway, Danny DeVito, all were part of the Brooklyn Cab outfit. The that was eager for Reverend Jim to join its ranks. But to do that, he'd have to go to the DMV and pass a driver's exam, not just behind the wheel, but on paper. It's in that DMV office where Burroughs helped shape what I consider the funniest scene in TV history. He allows the comedy to build at its own pace and encourages the young Christopher Lloyd to steal the show as Reverend Jim. And most important of all, James Burroughs places his cameras and frames the action to catch it all. Not only intense close ups of an increasingly frustrated Reverend Jim, but group shots capturing the reactions of Jeff Conaway's Bobby, Marilu Henner's Elaine, and everyone else trying to help him take the test. Bobby tries to speed things up by reading the application to Reverend Jim as. As Elaine stands nearby.
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James Burrows
Here, here, let me help you out.
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Announcer
Okay.
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Terry Gross
All right.
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James Burrows
Have you ever experienced loss of consciousness, hallucinations, dizzy spells, convulsive disorders, fainting, or periods of loss of memory? Less than everyone.
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Dave Davies
No
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James Burrows
mental illness or narcotic addiction? That's a tough ch.
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Terry Gross
Okay, that's it.
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Announcer
You ready for the test?
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James Burrows
I thought this was a test. No, no, no. This is the application.
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Terry Gross
Oh, man,
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James Burrows
it's getting rough on rough.
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Narrator/Reporter
Eventually, Reverend Jim gets a copy of the test, slumps in his classroom style desk, and gets stuck on the first question. His cabbie friends are standing on the other side of the room, but he asks for help anyway, louder and more angrily every time. Christopher Lloyd is brilliant, and Burrows lets the scene build and flow and listen to the studio audience. They're not just laughing, they're howling.
- [06:31]
James Burrows
What does a yellow light mean? Slow down, okay?
- [06:37]
Terry Gross
What.
- [06:44]
James Burrows
Yellow light beam? Slow down, okay?
- [06:52]
Terry Gross
What?
- [07:02]
James Burrows
Yellow like me? Slow down.
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Narrator/Reporter
I'm guessing you had your own favorite memories and favorite laughs from a sitcom directed by James Burroughs, from Friends, from Cheers, from Frasier, from Big Bang Theory, or from so many others. And that's the point, really. The legacy of James Burroughs, no matter where you look, is bound to make you smile.
- [07:49]
Dave Davies
David Biancooley is our TV critic. Terry Groes spoke to James Burroughs in 2006. He got his start in television directing episodes of the Mary Tyler Moore show, the Bob Newhart show, and Laverne and Shirley. But before that, he worked on some of his father's musicals. His father, Abe Burroughs, wrote the books for the musicals Guys and Dolls, how to Succeed in Business without really and Cactus Flower.
- [08:15]
James Burrows
I was an assistant stage manager or an assistant to the assistant on an ill fated musical called Breakfast at Tiffany's, where I met Mary Tyler Moore, and Mary Tyler Moore and Richard Chamberlain were the stars. And I went on subsequently to stage manage for my father on Cactus Flower, the production on the road and then in New York City in 40 carats. So I got to see my father, who really wrote on his feet, because he would write a scene and then when he would get in rehearsal, he would change the scene just on his feet. And you began to see how fascinating he was. And that's when I, you know, I kind of have his style of directing. I'm a listener, I'm not necessarily a watcher. And Abe would always, he would say to me, when he went to a run through of one of his shows or went to see one of his shows in, in the theater, he would always walk behind the set. He wouldn't watch because he wanted to know that there was always noise happening on stage. He listened for the noise. He knew if there was no noise that he was in trouble. So I do that when I direct my shows. So that, you know, that is the essence of the experience with my father. In subsequent years, a lot of his gift and a lot of his skills seemed to come out of me at the strangest times. It's not like I learned them as much as, you know, they were like osmosis. I absorbed them and they kind of seep out of my skin in certain situations.
- [09:49]
Terry Gross
So when you're directing a TV show, you're sometimes backstage and not looking at the action or at the monitor.
- [09:55]
James Burrows
Well, I don't. I never look at the monitor, because it's about the shows I do are in front of a light audience. So it's about the play. It's about what's happening there. I've been doing it long enough to know that I don't have to worry about the camera shots because I know they'll all be there. So I listen and watch. You know, I'll walk behind the cameras, not watching the action necessarily, but a lot. You know, most of the time I watch the play because. And I make my writers watch the play or they can watch the cut on the screen, but they don't watch the quad split. A quad split is a. Is a television screen that has the four cameras that I use to shoot the show on that. And if they watch the quad split, they're always worried about mics and shots and shots not matching. So I make all the writers watch the play because that's eventually what makes a hit show.
- [10:43]
Terry Gross
So what made you realize that you wanted to switch from the stage to television
- [10:50]
James Burrows
in the course of doing cactus flowers and 40 carats around the country? I would work at a lot of dinner theaters, a lot of regional. Not regional theaters, dinner theaters, summer stock theaters. I would do these. Not situation comedies, comedies. Odd Couple, Barefoot in the park, even Blythe's Spirit, I did. I'm trying to say, never too late. All these plays, the comedies that have been on Broadway, and I do them with stars. And I had about eight days to stage the whole thing, and I could get it done. I was good at that. And then one night, I was at home after rehearsal, and I turned on the television. There was the Mary Tyler Moore show, and they were doing 20 minutes a week in front of a live audience. And here I was doing 120 minutes a week to get ready for a live audience. And I thought I could do that. I thought I could translate my skills on stage to the skills required to do that television show, because it was like filming a theatrical show. So I wrote a letter to Mary Tyler Moore. As I said before, I had the connection because I was a stage manager on her first Broadway show. So she kind of knew me. And Grant Tinker called me, and he said, we're interested in theatrical directors at mtm. Would you come out and do one show? And I don't know what's faster than the New York Second, but whatever it was, I said yes. And I was. That was. The rest is history.
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Terry Gross
So you got started directing MTM productions like the Bob Newhart Show, Mary Tyler Lamour Show, Phyllis.
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James Burrows
Yes, yes, yes.
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Terry Gross
Now, were you at first, like, understudying other directors, or did they let you just go at it?
- [12:44]
James Burrows
Well, the first thing you have to do is you have to learn the technical stuff. So they brought me out here, and you kind of have to observe being an observer is you sit in the stands and you watch a week of rehearsals. And the first three days are with actors and writers alone. And the fourth day, the cameras come in, and the fifth day, you shoot the show. And for me, with actors and writers, I kind of got that. It was when the cameras came in that it became daunting. So I watched for maybe two months straight. I watched the Newhart Show. Then I went over to the Mary Tyler Moore show, and I watched Jay Sandridge, who to me is a true genius of this medium. I watched him and became very good friends with him. And so I kind of started to get a knowledge of what to do with cameras, how to figure them out. And then they assigned me to a show called Friends and Lovers, which was the Paul Sand Show. And I would coach. I was Paul Sands dialogue coach. I would help him run lines. But in a time when I wasn't doing that, I would watch cameras. And eventually they called me and they said, we're going to give you a shot. And I figured it would be on the Paul Sands Show. And all of a sudden, it was a Mary Tyler Moore Show.
- [14:01]
Terry Gross
Do you remember that first show that you did?
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James Burrows
I do. Vividly.
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Terry Gross
How did it go? What sticks out in your mind?
- [14:06]
James Burrows
Oh, my God. Well, we read the script. It was a show where Lou Grant moves into Rhoda's apartment. So he's living above Mary, which means that he. They work together and they live together, which wasn't good for the relationship. And so we read the script around the table, and it was a D minus. It was awful. And I said to Grant, I said, in a sea of Danish, I get a bagel. And it was literally. It was. It was literally just a. The show was awful. I mean, the initial reading, they made it better because you would rewrite. The writers would rewrite all the time. And so I had to go down. Back in those days you rehearsed immediately after you read, you just went down and started running scenes. So I was dealing with a cast who hated the script, too. And yet I had to run these scenes. And so I would do it. And I can't tell you. I invoked Chekhov, I invoked Strindberg, I invoked Kaufman and Hawk. I did anything to try to ease it for them to try to come up with some comic business, anything that that would help them get through this process. And so I was working. I was working the first three days with the actors and cameras, and I guess we finally got the show in some sort of semblance. And then the cameras came in, and that was daunting enough for me. It was very difficult. I did it on my own. I didn't want any help. And on the fifth day, just before we shot, Mary Tyler Moore came over to me and they said, we feel our investment in you has worked out. And that was even before I shot the show. And I couldn't have been higher figuratively. And we shot the show, and it turned out all right. And Jay Sanders was there and helped me a little bit. And the minute that show was over, I got two new hearts and I got a Bob Crane and a Paul Sand. And next year, I was on the Phyllis show, so I was on my way.
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Terry Gross
Was the show as bad after it was shot as it was when you were doing the reading?
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James Burrows
It was. It's a C show. It's not a very good show. In fact, the script after me won an Emmy. So by the luck of the draw. By the luck of the draw, I got. I didn't get the Emmy show. I got an okay show. And it might have helped me because of the amount of work I had to do and the amount of talking and inspiring I had to do. Might have, in hindsight, might have really helped me succeed in there and impress the actors.
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Terry Gross
Okay, so you start off at MTM in television, and then you do Taxi. And about how many episodes would you estimate you did of Taxi?
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James Burrows
I think I did 75.
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Terry Gross
And you were there right from the beginning with Taxi. Right.
- [16:58]
James Burrows
I was there. It was after. I kind of left MTM after about three or four years and started to go other places. I went on Laverne and Shirley, where I had a ball, although that was a tough show. And then I did a show with Ned Beatty. I was all a hired hand. I didn't do many pilots or anything like that. And then the boys from mtm, Ed Weinberger, Jim Brooks, Stan Daniels, and Dave Davis, had created a show called Taxi, and they called me to direct it. And probably the most difficult show I ever did because the cast was so divergent, the writing was so outrageous, the set was so gigantic. And it was my first really big show where I was in charge from the beginning. But it was like getting all these egos in the same room. There wasn't a room big enough. And it was a Struggle. And yet I was heard. I. I got out there and I said what I wanted to say, and I was heard. It was tough at times to be heard, but I fought. And the great thing about that show was that the producers of that show and head writers were Glenn Charles and Les Charles, who I'd first met on Phyllis, and then they were brought in on Taxi. So we struck up a friendship. We were both handled by the same agent, and he thought it would be good for us to do a show together. So I think about the third year of Taxi, we started to think about a show. But Taxi, if you go back and watch that show, there is some of the funniest television I think I've ever done. The standard out of that show is Reverend Jim what does the yellow light mean? Slow down. And that is, to me, one of the biggest laughs I had ever done on Taxi. And so I have fond memories of that show. It's also a great learning experience.
- [18:58]
Dave Davies
James Burroughs speaking with Terry Gross in 2006. He died last week at the age of 85. Here's one of the scenes from episode three of Cheers with Ted Danson and Shelley Long, which Burroughs directed.
- [19:11]
Terry Gross
Why are you so upset?
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James Burrows
You know, this week I have gone out with all the women I know. I mean, all the women I really enjoyed, and all of a sudden all I can think about is how stupid they are. I mean, my life isn't fun anymore. It's because of you.
- [19:34]
Terry Gross
Because of me?
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James Burrows
Yeah, you're a snob.
- [19:40]
Terry Gross
A snob?
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James Burrows
Yeah, that's right.
- [19:45]
Terry Gross
Well, you're a rapidly aging adolescent.
- [19:49]
James Burrows
Well, I would rather be that than a snob.
- [19:52]
Terry Gross
And I would rather be a snob.
- [19:54]
James Burrows
Well, good, because you are.
- [19:56]
Terry Gross
Sam, do yourself a favor. Go back to your tootsies and your rat parts. I'd hate to see the bowling alleys close on my account.
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James Burrows
Hey, hey, wait.
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Announcer
Wait a minute.
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James Burrows
Wait a minute. Are you saying that I'm too dumb to date smart women?
- [20:10]
Terry Gross
I'm saying that it would be very difficult for you. A really intelligent woman would see your line of BS a mile away.
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James Burrows
You think so, huh?
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Terry Gross
Uh huh. Uh huh.
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Guest/Actor
Yeah.
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James Burrows
Well, you know, I've never met an intelligent woman that I'd want to date.
- [20:26]
Terry Gross
On behalf of the intelligent women around the world, may I just say.
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James Burrows
Whew.
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Dave Davies
Coming up, we'll hear about Burrow's work on Cheers and Frasier. And later, Justin Chang reviews the new film the Invite. I'm Dave Davies, and this is Fresh Air.
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James Burrows
Making your way in the world today. Takes everything you've got.
- [20:51]
Dave Davies
Taking a break from all your worries
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James Burrows
sure would help a lot. Wouldn't you like to get away?
- [21:01]
Malcolm Gladwell
Support for NPR comes from IBM. On Smart Talks with IBM, host Malcolm Gladwell speaks with leaders who are pushing the boundaries of AI and technology in partnership with IBM. Hello.
- [21:13]
Terry Gross
Hello.
- [21:14]
Dave Davies
I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I sat down with Alon Cohen, who leads research and development at ufc, to discuss the complexity of using technology to analyze fight data.
- [21:27]
Guest/Actor
With kick to the head, it makes contact with the outside of my arm, which I brought up. In our world, that's a blocked strike. Yeah, but teaching a computer what exactly that means and when and how, like when my arm is up, that's a block. When my arm is down and hits my shoulder, that's not. It's those nuances that proved incredibly difficult for machines to be able to handle for a very, very long time.
- [21:52]
Dave Davies
That is, until IBM entered the octagon.
- [21:57]
Malcolm Gladwell
Listen to Smart Talks with IBM wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:01]
Announcer
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- [22:32]
Dave Davies
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. We're remembering James Burroughs, who was one of the most respected TV directors in the business. He directed over a thousand episodes of Cheers, Taxi, Friends, Frasier, Will and Grace, and also the Big Bang Theory, Third Rock from the Sun, Mike and Molly and Two Broke Girls. Burroughs died last week at the age of 85. He spoke with Terry Gross in 2006.
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Terry Gross
Now, after Taxi, you left with a couple of the creators of Taxi, Glenn Charles and Les Charles, and started Cheers. And on Cheers and on Taxi, you had a chance to direct characters from the very start and therefore to shape them to help shape them through your direction as opposed to inheriting characters on an already existing series. Can you talk a little bit about what it's like to actually create a character from scratch, a character that you hope will endure for years, years in a series?
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James Burrows
Well, the first thing that has to happen, it has to be on the page. So I am very careful when I select scripts. And when we talked about Glenn, Les and I Talked about doing Cheers. We spent two months talking about these characters. And then the boys went off and wrote the script. And when a month later, when I read it, it was. I said to the boys, you have brought radio back to television. Which is what they did. They wrote a really smart show that literally could have been a rad show because there wasn't that much movement. It was all about attitudes and all about intonations and nuances and stuff like that. And.
- [24:05]
Terry Gross
Can I just stop you. That would be a terrible insult to a lot of people. If you said, there are a lot of TV people. If you said to them, you've just produced this brilliant radio show. You've just written a brilliant radio show. They would think that was a terrible insult because they're working on television. And sometimes when you say radio to television people, it's like saying, you don't know what you're doing. You're blind. You can hear, but you're blind.
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James Burrows
No, if you watch that show, people cross. Occasionally, Norm comes into the bar. But you gotta listen to that show. It's all about listening.
- [24:35]
Terry Gross
Absolutely. Yeah.
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James Burrows
There's no eye candy in that show. There's no. I'll never forget, originally, the boys in the first draft had some kind of hurdle race in there that we took out. But it was. They came in, they sat down, they told their stories, and that's what it is. You could have done that show on radio. You wouldn't have to worry about how the actors looked as long as their voices were good. But it was a television show. But when I meant brought radio to television, it was smart. It was a smart show. It was an upscale, smart show with jokes about Schopenhauer and Updike and Freud and Jung, and we didn't care if the audience knew who those people were. And there was a genius job. And so it was my job to shape this cast. You cast them. You cast these people individually, but you don't know what you have until you put them together. So I always. In pilots, I always will begin by sitting around a big table. And in fact, on Cheers, we sat around the bar and we talked about where everybody came from, their characters. You know, I carried. I carried a conversation on with Sam and Diane and Norm and Cliff and everybody like that. And we talked. And it's not only good for me, it's good for the actors, because they're going to want to talk anyway. And if I can do it now and get them to talk and get them, they'll only grow into the roles more so we spent, you know, we spent half a day just sitting around, probably a day sitting around talking. And then I went to work on it and it was, you know, I did 240 out of like 275 shows and I had a great time. I love that show. That's. That to me, that's my baby. And I was there from the beginning for the cast, and I was there at the end and they trusted me. And we, you know, we, after a while, we knew what worked and what didn't work. We didn't have to spend a lot of time on stuff that didn't work. And we, you know, we could make the stuff work that worked really quickly.
- [26:41]
Terry Gross
Cheers are shot in front of a live audience. Do the laughs help the actors? And does it ever work against the show, in other words, like, because the actors can't, like, pick up and say the next line until the laughs fade. And of course, the audience at home isn't in the studio audience. So the timing. Do you think the timing when you're watching at home is any different than the timing when you're in the theater?
- [27:06]
James Burrows
Well, laughter is communal, so it really helps to have an audience because movies are so much better. I try to go see comedies in a theater rather than try to watch them at home in the movies because it's really tough to laugh at home or I'll get the family in to watch and then you can all laugh. But it's infectious and it's communal. So those were true laughs. And you can tell they're true laughs because you can see the actors eyes glint on Cheers. You can see the glint in their eyes, the excitement and hearing such a big reaction to something they've said. And they had to wait to be heard. And sometimes they wouldn't wait and have to back up and say, you know, let's go back a little bit, and so they would be heard. But those are true laughs. That show was a truly funny show.
- [27:58]
Terry Gross
Okay, well, say you had a backup because they were unheard, or say you want another take because it didn't work. What happens when the audience is hearing the joke the second time and their laughter, it's not going to be the same the second time around. They've already heard the joke, they've already
- [28:13]
James Burrows
laughed at it, but you're. Yeah, they've laughed at that joke. But then you go the second time so that you can get the reaction of the other person to that joke and then you can hear the other line from the person because they have previously set it into a laugh and you didn't hear it. So that's why you have to do that. But you'll use the first take of that joke because the laughter was so big.
- [28:36]
Terry Gross
So do you ever use the laughter from one take and roll it for a second take?
- [28:43]
James Burrows
Yeah. You use when you cross takes, you'll take the laughter from the first take and play it over the reaction in the second take.
- [28:51]
Terry Gross
Right? Right.
- [28:53]
James Burrows
You have to do that, otherwise you couldn't make sense of the show or people saying lines into laughs. You have to hear every line. So we didn't do that a lot back in the Cheers days. We only ran the scene twice. I would back up occasionally if somebody said something and laugh. But we didn't run the scene twice like we do now. We ran the cheer scenes only once. And then I would go back. If we missed something or we wanted to change one joke, I would go back and just shoot a piece of the scene again. On Will and Grace, we do every scene twice, and in between each scene, the writers rewrite some jokes.
- [29:27]
Terry Gross
Really?
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James Burrows
Yeah.
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Terry Gross
So the audience gets to see two different versions of the scene?
- [29:33]
James Burrows
Yes. If you're gonna do a scene twice, it really helps to change the jokes.
- [29:37]
Terry Gross
Is that typical that the writers are on the set? Typical for you? Is it typical for other shows?
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James Burrows
Oh, yeah. Any sitcom. You gotta see what I mean. If you're not on the set, you don't know whether to show bombs or not. You gotta be there to see. It's either euphoria or it's your fun. But you gotta be there and you gotta fix what doesn't work because that's going off on that's going on the air. You don't want something that's no good going on the air, so you better fix it.
- [30:04]
Dave Davies
James Burrow speaking with Terry GROSS, recorded in 2006. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. This is FRESH air.
- [30:14]
Malcolm Gladwell
Support for NPR comes from IBM. On Smart Talks with IBM, host Malcolm Gladwell speaks with leaders who are pushing the boundaries of AI and technology in partnership with IBM.
- [30:26]
Narrator/Reporter
Hello.
- [30:26]
Dave Davies
Hello, I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I sat down with Alon Cohen, who leads research and development at ufc, to discuss the complexity of using technology to analyze fight data.
- [30:40]
Guest/Actor
With kick to the head, it makes contact with the outside of my arm, which I brought up. In our world, that's a blocked strike. Yeah, but teaching a computer what exactly that means and when and how, like when my arm is up, that's a block. When my arm is down and hits my shoulder. That's not. It's those nuances that proved incredibly difficult for machines to be able to handle for a very, very long time.
- [31:04]
Dave Davies
That is, until IBM entered the octagon.
- [31:09]
Malcolm Gladwell
Listen to smart talks with IBM wherever you get your podcasts.
- [31:14]
Dave Davies
This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to Terry's 2006 interview with TV director James Burroughs, who directed over a thousand episodes of Cheers, Taxi, Friends, Frasier and other sitcoms. He died last week.
- [31:29]
Terry Gross
Now, you know, we were talking about Cheers, and of course, after Cheers, you worked on the spinoff Frasier and you directed lots of episodes of that. You were there right at the start. Why was Frasier the character that you all decided to spin off?
- [31:48]
James Burrows
We didn't. I did not spin them off. David Angel, Peter Casey and David Lee, who were the producers of Cheers for years, had talked to Kelsey about doing a spin off. So they wrote the script and they spun him off. They asked us if he if they could, and we said sure. And they wrote a brilliant script. Their genius in that script was taking an actor who had this incredible ability, which Kelsey has, and taking Frazier, making him Sam Malone because he had to be the center, and taking David Hyde Pierce as Niles and making him Frasier. So that was brilliant on their part. And the tone of that show was brilliant, too. So much more upper crust than Cheers because other than Martin the father, there was no other Sam Malone's or Norms or Cliffs on that show. They were all upper crust, smart people and they did a brilliant job. And I directed the pilot, which was huge, and I think I directed about 20, 25 episodes. They did a great job and they had a great actor in the lead and a great cast.
- [33:00]
Terry Gross
I want to play a short scene from the pilot which you directed of Frasier. And this is a scene from early in the episode. Niles and Frasier are at a coffee shop and Niles is suggesting it's time to find a convalescent home for their father to live in.
- [33:13]
Dave Davies
We have a problem.
- [33:14]
James Burrows
And that's why I thought we should talk.
- [33:15]
Announcer
Is it dad?
- [33:17]
James Burrows
Afraid so. One of his old buddies from the police force called this morning. He went over to see him and found him on the bathroom floor.
- [33:23]
Terry Gross
Oh, my God.
- [33:24]
James Burrows
No, no, it's okay.
- [33:24]
Guest/Actor
He's fine.
- [33:25]
James Burrows
What is his hip again? Fraser, I don't think he can live alone anymore. What can we do? Well, I know this isn't going to be anyone's favorite solution, but I took the liberty of checking out a few convalescent homes for him. Nile's a home. He's still a young man. Well, you certainly can't take care of him. You're just getting your new life together.
- [33:48]
Announcer
Absolutely. Well, besides, we were never simpatico.
- [33:51]
James Burrows
Of course I can't take care of him. Oh, yes, yes, of course, of course.
- [33:56]
Announcer
Why?
- [33:58]
James Burrows
Because dad doesn't get along with Maris. Who does? I thought you liked my Maris.
- [34:04]
Announcer
I do. I. I like her from a distance.
- [34:07]
James Burrows
You know, the way you like the sun. Maris is like the sun, except without the warmth. Well, then we're agreed about what to do with dad. Golden Acres. We care so you don't have to to. It says that. Well, it might as well. All right, I'll make up the spare bedroom. Oh, you're a good son, Frasier. Oh, God, I am, aren't I?
- [34:43]
Terry Gross
Two cafe supremos.
- [34:44]
James Burrows
Anything to eat?
- [34:46]
Announcer
No, I seem to have lost my appetite.
- [34:48]
James Burrows
I'll have a large piece of cheesecake.
- [34:51]
Terry Gross
Scene from the pilot of Frasier, directed by my guest, James Burroughs. And, you know, great scene, great series. One of the things that's really interesting to me about that scene and about like, you know, the early Frasier is that Niles sounds completely different than he did later on. He is not talking with that, you know, kind of effete, clipped style of speech that he develops later in the series.
- [35:15]
James Burrows
I did not notice that. I always thought that he was. There was no other word to describe Niles than a feat for me because he was a personification of Frasier and Frasier was certainly a feat on Cheers, so I did not know that. I guess I. Well, you know what? Niles was a minor character if you talk to the boys. Originally, Niles only had one scene in the pilot and he was an afterthought. They thought the strong relationship would be between father and son. And then because of David, that part expanded rapidly and thank God, because it was a wonderful relationship.
- [35:59]
Terry Gross
No, you know, a lot of people thought that Niles and Frazier were really two gay men cast as brothers. Do you know what I mean? That the brothers was just a cover, that this was a story about really two gay guys. Did you feel that way when you were directing it?
- [36:13]
James Burrows
Oh, yeah. It's a husband and wife, those two.
- [36:16]
Terry Gross
Uh huh.
- [36:16]
Malcolm Gladwell
Okay.
- [36:16]
Narrator/Reporter
They are.
- [36:17]
James Burrows
They're a couple. They're a couple and it's great. I never thought gay as much as a married couple. They. They talk like a married couple, a snobbish married couple, an effete married couple. So I totally agree with that.
- [36:35]
Terry Gross
Now, unwilling Grace. There really is a gay character and it was among the first really popular gay regular characters on sitcoms and on broadcast. Were there issues about how broad to make the character and how the character should be depicted?
- [37:00]
James Burrows
Well, you know, the. The genius of that show is the script, is that Max and David wrote a script where there's a love affair between a woman and a man that can't be consummated. So the dialogue is brilliant in that script and very smart. So you have a gay man who you don't play gay, which gives you the liberty to play gay with the other character with Jack. Jack can be incredibly outrageous because Will is. Will is not Will. You know, he gives you credibility mainly among the gay community. Because I think if Will wasn't on the show, we would get notes, we get letters from the gay community about how Jack's portrayed, how that character's portrayed, but because of Will, it allows us to do that. So I always thought of the show as a really funny show that happens to have two gay characters in it. And I firmly believed that. You know, the pilot was through the roof. When we ran it in front of an audience, they loved it. We shot it, they loved it. And I went to the network and I said, please don't put us on the. Don't put us after Seinfeld. We cannot survive there because people are not going to watch us. Please put us somewhere where we can kind of sneak into town and people can, you know, find us eventually, because there's no reason to watch this show. And then I wanted. There's a kiss in the pilot between Will and Grace. And I wanted that in there because I felt that if we could convince the part of the country that that doesn't appreciate gays or does not like gays or has some problems with gays, if we could convince that part of the country that maybe Will will take the super drugs and get over his gayness and marry Grace. And if we let them think that they'll get together, that they maybe tune in to watch the show because they've heard how funny it was. And then once they're in there and see how funny it is, they're never going to leave.
- [39:21]
Terry Gross
So are you really glad you've been able to have a career in TV?
- [39:26]
James Burrows
I've been blessed. I did in 1981, I tried a movie. If I had tried it in 91, the movie probably been more successful because I would have had much more self esteem than I had in 81. This is before Cheers. I didn't like the process because it took two years to get a result. I didn't like the hours. I'm not a guy who's meticulous with how the set looks and doing each scene three times so that you can then cut it. I'm a guy who likes to do it live in front of an audience, and I have been blessed to be able to work in this medium that I don't have to work anymore. I didn't have to do Will and Grace. I'm financially sound and but I do it because I love it. I do it because Will and Grace makes me feel 20 years younger. I've been in this business about 35 years, so I, I just turned 25 last year.
- [40:31]
Announcer
That's how old I am.
- [40:33]
James Burrows
And I, I, I love laughing. I love to hear the laughter I've done. And I've been lucky enough to be associated with some extraordinary shows and shows that may not be as extraordinary but were so wonderful, like Newsradio, which I did the pilot of, and Third Rock with Johnny Lithgow. And I've had, you know, these wonderful shows. And it just I'm going to go on next year. I'm not when Will and Grace is off the air, I'm going to try to find another show because I have so much fun doing it.
- [41:09]
Terry Gross
James Burroughs, thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you so much for all the great programs that you've given us. Thank you.
- [41:15]
James Burrows
And thank you for some questions I've never been asked before.
- [41:20]
Dave Davies
TV director James Burroughs speaking with Terry Gross in 2006. Burroughs died June 19 at the age of 85. Burroughs played a fictional version of himself in the HBO series the Comeback, starring Lisa Kudrow. In his last appearance in May, his character is asked to direct a pilot of a show written by AI and he makes a plea for the creativity and unpredictability of human script writers.
- [41:46]
James Burrows
Surprising only comes from a group of writers huddled in a corner, beating themselves up to beat out a better joke.
- [41:54]
Narrator/Reporter
Okay.
- [41:54]
James Burrows
But no, no, it's the chubby guy who's a secret alcoholic. It's the gay guy who, despite all the world, still hates himself a little, or the funny woman who has been invisible for way too long. They turn all that pain into a joke. And Val, those broken, beautiful souls are what makes something great.
- [42:17]
Dave Davies
Coming up, Justin Chang reviews the new film the Invite. This is FRESH air.
- [42:23]
Malcolm Gladwell
Support for NPR comes from IBM. On Smart Talks with IBM, host Malcolm Gladwell speaks with leaders who are pushing the boundaries of AI and technology in partnership with IBM.
- [42:35]
Dave Davies
Hello.
- [42:35]
Terry Gross
Hello.
- [42:35]
Dave Davies
I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM I sat down with Alon Cohen, who leads research and development at ufc, to discuss the complexity of using technology to analyze fight data.
- [42:49]
Guest/Actor
With kick to the head, it makes contact with the outside of my arm, which I brought up. In our world, that's. That's a blocked strike. Yeah, but teaching a computer what exactly that means and when and how, like when my arm is up, that's a block. When my arm is down and hits my shoulder, that's not. It's those nuances that proved incredibly difficult for machines to be able to handle for a very, very long time.
- [43:13]
Dave Davies
That is, until IBM entered the octagon.
- [43:18]
Malcolm Gladwell
Listen to Smart Talks with IBM wherever you get your podcasts.
- [43:24]
Dave Davies
This is FRESH Air. In the new comedy the Invite, Seth Rogen and Olivia Wilde play a San Francisco couple who spend an even getting to know their upstairs neighbors, played by Penelope Cruz and Edward Norton. It's Wilde's third directorial effort after her earlier films Book Smart and Don't Worry Darling. The Invite opens in theaters this week. Our film critic Justin Chang has this
- [43:48]
Announcer
review in the annals of movies about bickersome couples spending an ill advised evening together, Olivia Wilde's the Invite falls somewhere between two polls. No, it isn't as good as who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Mike Nichols scalding 1966 adaptation of Edward Albee's classic play, but it's significantly better than Carnage, Roman Polanski's annoying 2010 film of the Yasmina Reza play God of Carnage. All these movies have a tricky needle to thread. How do you open up a story for the screen when the story is claustrophobic by design? How do you get an audience to feel the tension and heat of marital rage without driving them toward the exit? In the case of the Invite, Wilde and her screenwriters Will McCormick and Rashida Jones are working from proven material. This is a remake of a Spanish stage to screen adaptation, the People Upstairs, which was released in 2020. It's already inspired remakes set in Italy, Switzerland, France and South Korea. In this new version, Wilde plays Angela, who lives in a San Francisco apartment with her husband Joe, played by Seth Rogen. The film unfolds over a single evening. Their 12 year old daughter is away at a sleepover and Angela has invited their upstairs neighbors, Pina and her boyfriend Hawk over for wine and charcuterie. The knives come out even before the guests show up. Angela is a ball of nerves, anxious to make a good impression. Joe, by contrast, couldn't care less what they think, and he means to confront them about their very noisy sex life, which has woken Joe and Angela up at odd hours of the night. Wilde is a terrific director of actors, herself included, and she and Rogen are all too persuasive as a long married couple who know just how to push each other's buttons. Rogen is especially strong. The boisterous good vibes that once powered many a Judd Apatow comedy have hardened into a shell of middle aged discontent. Pina and Hawk, played by Penelope Cruz and Edward Norton, eventually arrive not long afterward. Hawk, who's nothing if not direct, tries to either defuse or exacerbate the obvious tension in the room.
- [46:08]
James Burrows
It took you a while to come to the door and it sounded like you were arguing. No filter. No, I just want to be honest.
- [46:15]
Terry Gross
We were.
- [46:16]
Guest/Actor
We were.
- [46:16]
James Burrows
We were at the door before we
- [46:18]
Dave Davies
rang and we could hear.
- [46:19]
James Burrows
You were fighting.
- [46:20]
Malcolm Gladwell
Oh, we were talk. We were.
- [46:23]
Announcer
We were fighting.
- [46:24]
James Burrows
We were fighting.
- [46:24]
Malcolm Gladwell
Yeah.
- [46:25]
James Burrows
Bit of a contentious environment in here,
- [46:26]
Announcer
so I understand if that's repellent to you. No hard feelings.
- [46:29]
James Burrows
You know what I mean? Completely understand. You know, we love a contentious environment. We love it. Okay. Wow. Really?
- [46:39]
Guest/Actor
It's fine.
- [46:41]
James Burrows
You hit the jackpot then, my friend.
- [46:43]
Announcer
As the couples get to know each other, we get to know them too, and we come to understand the roots of Joe and Angela's unhappiness. Joe was a once promising indie rock artist whose career flamed out after one big hit. He now teaches music at a Bay Area conservatory, and his sense of failure is eating him alive. And Angela hasn't made much use of her art school degree, apart from renovating and redecorating the apartment, her sole creative outlet these days. Pina and Hawk are a model couple by comparison, which makes them irritating and amusing in equal measure. Hawk lays on the flattery and the new age sensitivity awfully thick. And Norton, not for the first time, expertly blurs the lines between charm and smarm. Pina is a psychotherapist and sexologist, and at first she might seem to veer toward a hot blooded Euro seductress caricature. But Cruise is too vivid to be reduced to a stereotype. Pina is ultimately the one character the movie refuses to mock. She's too comfortable in her own skin and too ruthlessly accurate in her assessments of Joe and Angela's troubled marriage. Wilde previously directed the enjoyable teen comedy Booksmart, and less successfully, the domestic dystopian satire Don't Worry Darling, an ambitious movie that ultimately proved less interesting than its much publicized behind the scenes shenanigans. It was smart of Wilde to scale back with an intimate chamber piece like the Invite, though here, as in Don't Worry, Darling, her stylistic tics sometimes get the better of her. Early on, Joe and Angela's arguments are almost drowned out by the score's frenzied cello strings, and Wilde is a bit too fond of using the apartment's many, many mirrors to isolate the characters visually, as if we needed reminding of how fragmented their relationship has become. Pina and Hawk have their own ideas about how to help, and it's worth seeing the movie yourself to discover what they are. Suffice to say that the title the Invite has more than one meaning. It's disappointing, though not surprising, that the film pulls back from those ideas. After dangling a more audacious outcome, the Invite retreats to a zone of emotional safety, one that's poignant in its own way, though it also feels like a missed opportunity. The movie could have been, dare I say it, a little wilder.
- [49:18]
Dave Davies
Justin Chang is a film critic at the New Yorker. On Monday's show, Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova. They were tennis champions, the two biggest stars of their generation. They were friends, they were rivals, and after retiring, they got cancer at the same time. Now they're the subject of a new Netflix documentary. I hope you can join us. FRESH Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorok. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Benson, with additional engineering support from Julian Herzfeld, Diana Martinez and Charlie Kyre. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seving Esper for Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley. I'm Dave Davies.
- [50:28]
Malcolm Gladwell
Support for NPR comes from the station and from Bloomsbury, publisher of Courage Can Save Us by Marine Corps veteran and social entrepreneur Ry Barcott. A call to courage and public service for America's 250th, available wherever books are sold and from UMA now offering MyPhone, a modern home phone service for families who want a screen free experience with parental controls like trusted circle and quiet hours. More@myphone.com
- [51:01]
Terry Gross
this week on the NPR Politics podcast, we're digging into the massive wave of tech money flooding the midterms with
- [51:08]
James Burrows
a growing appetite in D.C. to regulate AI. AI companies and AI interests really want
- [51:13]
Announcer
to be be involved in picking who
- [51:15]
James Burrows
is going to write that kind of legislation. We break down a proxy battle over the future of AI regulation.
- [51:22]
Terry Gross
This week on the NPR Politics podcast,
- [51:25]
Malcolm Gladwell
every story from shortwave NPR science podcasts starts with a question like why do we have nightmares? How does AI affect my energy?
- [51:34]
James Burrows
Bill at npr, we are here for
- [51:37]
Malcolm Gladwell
your right to be curious about the world around you. Follow shortwave wherever you get your podcasts because the more you ask, the more
- [51:45]
James Burrows
interesting the world gets.
- [51:49]
Malcolm Gladwell
This message comes from Rosetta Stone. Rosetta Stone Sapphire combines immersion with the latest technology. Get unlimited access to all 25 Rosetta Stone languages and Sapphire learning tools. Visit Rosetta Stone.com NPR and receive 20% off.