Remembering musical theater historian Robert Kimball

Summary

Fresh Air – Remembering Musical Theater Historian Robert Kimball

Original Broadcast Date: July 10, 2026
Host: David Biancooli (with interviews by Terry Gross)
Episode Theme:
A tribute to Robert Kimball (1939–2026), the influential musical theater historian who was responsible for rediscovering and preserving the works of great American songwriters such as George and Ira Gershwin, Cole Porter, and Eubie Blake. The episode revisits Terry Gross’s past interviews with Kimball, focusing on his deep connections to Broadway history, key archival discoveries, the evolution of American songwriting, and Kimball’s preservation work and personal recollections.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction to Robert Kimball and His Legacy

• Kimball’s earliest exposure to Broadway was seeing Ethel Merman in “Annie Get Your Gun,” igniting his lifelong passion for musicals.
• His academic background: a Yale graduate with a law degree, but he chose archival work and research into American musical theater over practicing law.
• Notably curated Yale’s collection of Cole Porter materials and rescued long-forgotten manuscripts by prominent composers.
• Quote:

  “And for Robert Kimball, following his passions paid off, and he discovered a treasure trove of musical history.” (David Biancooli, 01:35)

Rediscovering Hidden Musical Treasures

• In 1982, Kimball uncovered 80 crates containing hundreds of lost songs by Kern, Porter, and the Gershwins in a Warner Bros. warehouse.
• Worked closely as artistic advisor to the Ira Gershwin estate, editing collections and reviving obscure works.

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Ira Gershwin: Personal Reminiscences & Lyrical Genius

(Segments: 03:49–19:53)

Kimball’s Friendship and Work with Ira Gershwin

• Recounts meeting Ira in the 1970s while working on a biography; Ira insisted the book focus on his brother George.
• Ira saw himself as “the custodian of George’s legacy.”
• Memorable Moment:

  “He [Ira] sat, cigar in his hand with his eyes closed. And Al began with the overture, and Ira sang the entire score all the way through. And it was certainly one of the most memorable experiences of my life...” (Robert Kimball, 04:55)

Ira’s Innovative Use of Language

• Gershwin’s mastery was turning colloquial speech and playful contractions into lyrical gold, making the songs feel natural and timeless.
• Discussion Example: The lyric “Swonderful, smarvelous…” from “’S Wonderful” exemplifies this casual elegance.
• Quote:

  “It’s so much his ability to take cliches, shopworn phrases, and the way, as you say, people actually spoke... to somehow bring those into lyrics and to mate them with this incredible music of George’s to give them timeless expression.” (Robert Kimball, 06:49)

Experimentation with Rhymes

• Explained how “I Got Rhythm” deliberately eschews conventional rhyming for directness and vigor.
• Kimball shares a dummy lyric used by Ira during songwriting:

  “Roly Poly eating solely ravioli. Better watch your diet or bust...” with the final thought, “That didn’t somehow work as a song.” (Robert Kimball, 09:51)

Audio Treasures and Home Recordings

• Plays rare recordings, including:
  • George Gershwin himself on piano performing “I Got Rhythm” (11:49)
  • Ira Gershwin singing “Hi Ho,” accompanied by Harold Arlen, a party-performance of an unpublished song (14:01)
• Discusses the creative burst of the brothers’ final year together, listing seminal hits: “Slap That Bass,” “They All Laughed,” “Let’s Call the Whole Thing Off,” “They Can’t Take That Away from Me," “A Foggy Day," and “Love Is Here to Stay.”
• Quote:

  "All those were written in less than a year and they are among the greatest songs written in this century by any writers." (Robert Kimball, 15:38)

Post-George Collaborations and Ira’s Retirement

• Ira was slow to return to work after George’s passing; notable collaborations with Jerome Kern and Harold Arlen followed.
• Analyzes “The Man That Got Away,” and its lyric’s deliberate choice of phrasing:

  “The title had Come as a paraphrase... ‘You should have seen the one that got away’—that meaning is somewhat larger in scope. Wasn’t just a person, it was a whole world that left.” (Robert Kimball, 17:53)

• Ira’s last years: retired, kept mainly to himself, treasured correspondence with fans (especially children), and enjoyed recounting old stories.

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Rediscovering Black Broadway: Eubie Blake, Noble Sissel & "Shuffle Along"

(Segments: 22:38–31:44)

The Legacy of "Shuffle Along" (1921)

• Landmark musical created and performed by African Americans; pivotal in bringing syncopation and new dances to Broadway and inspiring the Harlem Renaissance.
• Musically, it blended operetta, vaudeville, and comic routines, bringing together top talent in the Black community.
• Launched the careers of Florence Mills, Josephine Baker, Paul Robeson, Hall Johnson, William Grant Still, and more.
• Quote:

  “Because there were no other black musicals on Broadway... they were able to obtain the very best talent in the black community.” (Kimball/Commentator, 25:33)

• Performance highlight: “I’m Craving for That Kind of Love” (26:30)

Influence and Preservation

• “Shuffle Along” inspired white composers like Irving Berlin and shaped the rhythms of Gershwin.
• Kimball helped rescue the archives of Eubie Blake and Noble Sissel just before they would have been discarded.
• Memorable Quote:

  “Maybe just weeks before he was going to throw out all his old files and... he said, no one is interested in them... by this miracle we were able to get there in time.” (Kimball, paraphrased, 30:10)

---

Curating Irving Berlin's Legacy

(Segments: 31:44–34:04)

After 9/11—Relevance of Berlin’s Lyrics

• Kimball co-edited a collection of Berlin’s lyrics with Berlin’s daughter Linda Emmett.
• Discusses “Let’s Face the Music and Dance” in the context of uncertainty and resilience:

  “There may be trouble ahead, but while there’s moonlight and music and love and romance, let’s face the music and dance...” (Berlin lyric, 33:06)

• Kimball reflects on how Berlin’s songs, though written for specific moments, retain timeless emotional resonance.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Passion and Discovery:

  “For Robert Kimball, following his passions paid off, and he discovered a treasure trove of musical history.” (David Biancooli, 01:35)

• On Ira Gershwin’s Lyricism:

  “He could almost anticipate some of Ira's ideas, and he would come up with playful thoughts of his own to give Ira to set.” (Robert Kimball, 07:17)

• On the Emotional Power of Collaborations:

  “To hear Ira sing the wonderful, wonderful songs that he and George had written. And it made us all very happy.” (Robert Kimball, 05:28)

• On the Preservation of Black Musical Heritage:

  “We didn’t know how close we were to losing this extraordinary heritage.” (Kimball, 30:52)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:35 – Overview of Kimball’s background and impact
• 03:56 – Kimball recounts first meeting Ira Gershwin
• 05:35 – Analysis of Ira’s satirical early lyrics
• 09:51 – Reading of Ira Gershwin’s “dummy lyric” for “I Got Rhythm”
• 11:49 – George Gershwin’s archival radio performance
• 14:01 – Ira Gershwin sings “Hi Ho” (rare, unpublished)
• 15:38 – Recap of the Gershwins’ final year of collaborations
• 16:53 – Harold Arlen performs “The Man That Got Away”
• 22:38 – Introduction to “Shuffle Along” and Eubie Blake
• 26:30 – Performance: “I’m Craving for That Kind of Love”
• 29:58 – How Kimball helped save Sissel and Blake’s archives
• 31:44 – Discussion of Irving Berlin’s lyrics post-9/11
• 33:06 – “Let’s Face the Music and Dance” performance

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Tone & Style

The episode is warm, nostalgic, and deeply appreciative. The exchanges brim with Kimball’s affection for the music and for the artists he chronicled. Kimball is erudite but approachable, with Terry Gross providing gentle, incisive guidance and curiosity throughout. Listeners are offered both historical perspective and intimate behind-the-scenes stories, often illuminated by rare recordings.

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For New Listeners

This episode is a moving tour through American musical theater’s golden age, through the eyes of its most devoted archivist. Kimball’s stories illustrate both the fragility of musical heritage and the joy of its recovery, reminding us of the enduring magic within classic American song.

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End of Summary – Fresh Air, July 10, 2026

Transcript

[Capella University Announcer]

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[David Biancooli]

This is FRESH air. I'm David Biancooley. Robert Kimball, the musical historian who rediscovered and rescued music and manuscripts by George Gershwin, Cole Porter and others and who co wrote important books about George and Ira Gershwin, Cole Porter and Eubie Blake, died last week. He was 86 years old. Kimball, who was born in New York City in 1939, fell in love with Broadway musicals and musical composers when he was taken as a child to see Ethel Mervyn star as Annie Oakley in Irving Berlin's Annie get your gun. Later in life, after publishing several books on popular songwriters, Kimball got a call from Irving Berlin himself, sparking a friendship that brought Kimball's life full circle. Robert Kimball graduated from Yale in 1961. His undergraduate thesis was on Broadway musicals of the 1920s, but when he returned to Yale, it was for law school, from which he graduated in 1967. While a senior in law school, Kimball was asked to organize the collection donated to Yale by composer Cole Porter. Kimball did such a good job and enjoyed it so much that when he earned his law degree, he didn't become a lawyer. Instead, for the next four years, he curated Yale's musical theater collections and began writing books on the subject. And for Robert Kimball, following his passions paid off, and he discovered a treasure trove of musical history.

[Robert Kimball]

Gold.

[David Biancooli]

The Warner Brothers movie studio in the late 1920s had invested in the new sound era by buying several music publishing houses. The sale included 80 crates of material that lay unopened and untouched for more than 50 years. Then in 1982, Robert Kimball found the crates in a Warner Brothers warehouse in Secaucus, New Jersey, and cataloged them. Inside were hundreds of unpublished songs by Jerome Kern, unknown songs by Cole Porter, and missing songs by George and Ira Gershwin. Eventually, Kimball became artistic advisor to the Ira Gershwin estate and edited a book collecting Ira Gershwin's complete lyrics, including many of the ones Kimball himself had rescued. Today, we'll remember Robert Kimball by listening back to some of his conversations with Terry Gross. The first came in 1994, when Kimball's collection of Ira Gershwin lyrics had just been published. Terry began by playing a Fred Astaire recording of a George and Ira Gershwin composition.

[Singer/Performer]

Swanderful, swarvelous that you should care for me. Oh, softul, nice sparadice swat I love to see you've made my Life so glamorous you can't blame me for feeling amorous oh, so wonderful, smarvelous that you should care for me.

[Terry Gross]

Robert Kimball, welcome to Fresh Air. How well did you know Ira Gershwin, and how did you get to know him?

[Robert Kimball]

I knew Ira really quite well. I started working with him in 1972 when my friend and partner, Alfred Simon, who had been the rehearsal pianist in of the I sing in 31, and I asked him if we could do a book about himself and his brother. And we went out to spend some time with him. We spent many days in the house. And the first day I met him, he took me aside and asked me, very well, I would describe it as somewhat haltingly but insistently, to make the book entirely about his brother George, and not about himself. He saw himself to a certain degree as the custodian of George's legacy. Now, when I worked with him, we. He would come downstairs to his pool room, billiard room office about noon, and he would say to us, boys, am I disturbing you? And of course, we were so happy to see him. And he would reminisce a lot because he knew we loved the old stories. And we would ask him questions. And on many wonderful occasions, he would ask Al Simon, who was a superb pianist and who knew, as I say, a lot of Gershwin work, if Al remembered particular songs. And one day he felt particularly lively and asked Al if he would mind playing through the score of. Of the I Sing. And so we went up to the living room and at George Gershwin's own piano, Ira Gershwin sat, cigar in his hand with his eyes closed. And Al began with the overture, and Ira sang the entire score all the way through. And it was certainly one of the most memorable experiences of my life, hearing Ira sing the wonderful, wonderful songs that he and George had written. And it made us all very happy.

[Terry Gross]

I'd like to go back to 1917 to the very first published lyric written, written by Ira Gershwin. And you reprint this lyric in your new book. And this lyric was actually a parody, a satire. The song was called you may throw all the rice you desire. I'm just going to read a little bit of the verse because Gershwin wrote this apparently as a spoof. And it's, I think, a pretty funny spoof of a type of turn of the century song. The ceremony was over and all was happy and gay. The blushing bride and her lover to the steps did wend their way. Their young friends them had proceeded and. And had formed a merry plot. Although the older folks pleaded, the younger folks heeded Them not, and so on and so on. And then it goes to the refrain, you may throw all the rice you desired but please, friends, throw no shoes for twill surely arouse my ire if you cause my wife one bruise. What I find particularly amusing about this spoof is that Gershwin became so wonderful with using colloquial. Colloquial lines and slang and writing lyrics the way people spoke. It's great that his first published lyric was a parody of lyrics written in the way people didn't speak, written in a stilted prose.

[Robert Kimball]

Terry, that's a very interesting point that you made. And indeed, if we think of Ira Gershwin's contributions as a lyricist, it's so much his ability to take cliches, shop horn phrases, and the way, as you say, people actually spoke to one another in ordinary situations, and to somehow bring those into lyrics and to mate them with this incredible music of George's, to give them timeless expression. And George just loved the way Ira did that, and he really responded very beautifully to it. He could almost anticipate some of Ira's ideas, and he would come up with playful thoughts of his own to give Ira to set. And I think that's one of Ira's great contributions to lyric writing, is that it made it less formal. It had a kind of formal sort of idea that you're telling a story, a long verse in the old days, and then a very short refrain that was repeated. And the story, of course, was very much in the verse. And Ira. Ira worked to loosen things up a bit and to make them go easier for people who would sing them as well.

[Terry Gross]

I think maybe one of his most famous songs that uses colloquial speech is wonderful.

[Robert Kimball]

Well, there he. By eliminating the its and bringing the s and the w together, sort of a device that he had used earlier in a song called Sunny Disposish, where he shortened the words Sunny disposish to Sunny disposish and all the rhymes that occur again by making it swonderful. You get the feeling of the ecstasy without the formality of saying, gee, it's wonderful, which is fine, but not like swonderful.

[Terry Gross]

Ira Gershwin had wonderfully clever rhymes, but on the other hand, he was capable of abandoning conventional rhymes, which he did on one of his most famous songs, I Got Rhythm. You want to tell the story about why he didn't use a rhyme on that?

[Robert Kimball]

Well, he had a number of thoughts about that. He found that the phrases were very short, and he thought that to try to rhyme, it just didn't work.

[Commentator/Expert]

It just.

[Robert Kimball]

The song didn't work. And he had things like Roly Poly rhyming with ravioli and some of the dummy lyrics that he put together in a search to find the song. And he just finally came up with a pattern. Pattern that tended to work better by not having these kinds of repetitions, that each phrase had a distinctive quality on its own. And certainly when Ethel Merman sang it, which was in her Broadway debut in 1930, and you had this fabulous pit band that included Glenn Miller and Benny Goodman and other greats later, of course, great band leaders in the pit. It was one of the most exciting numbers in the history of the American musical theater.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, you said that he had. He had written a dummy lyric just to try different rhyme schemes to see how they worked. And so the dummy lyric is just to try out certain rhyme schemes. And do you want to quote the dummy lyric that he'd come up with, which convinced him that this kind of rhyme scheme wasn't going to work in the song?

[Robert Kimball]

If you can imagine the tune, we all know the tune. So it's sort of hard to forget the tune of I Got Rhythm. But it went Roly Poly eating solely ravioli. Better watch your diet or bust Lunch or dinner, you're a sinner, please get dinner. Losing all that fat is a must. That's. That didn't somehow work as a song, but it gave him the idea of the kind of thing he was trying for short words. But each phrase had to be really complete in itself. You know, I got rhythm, I got music, you know, who could ask for anything more? Which is certainly one of the most famous lines in all of his songs. Who could ask for anything more?

[Terry Gross]

You've brought a record with you of George Gershwin performing this song that he collaborated on with his brother. Would you introduce the record for us?

[Robert Kimball]

I'd be happy to, Terry. In 1934, when George had begun work on the opera Porgy and Bessie, he really needed income. So he went on the radio, and he had a radio show which was sponsored by Finamint, the laxative for which he was teased constantly by many people, and later said, well, if there hadn't been Finamint, there would have been no Porgy and Bess.

[Commentator/Expert]

But on the show, he would play

[Robert Kimball]

his own music and introduce his songs as well as music of others. And we have a few acetates that survived that Ira Gershwin had, and one of them has a marvelous performance prefaced with an introduction. We hear George Gershwin speaking, mentioning the song I Got Rhythm, mentioning his Brother Ira, we hear just an incredible, inventive performance, which undoubtedly he did on the spur of the moment during the performance, because he could do that so well. And that song was so close to him. So from 1934 we hear George Gershwin playing I Got Rhythm.

[Singer/Performer]

But right now I want to play for you a composition of mine that brings up the pleasantest memories with I Got Rhythm from a show called Girl Crazy. Maybe you saw it a few seasons ago. Again, I had the pleasure of working with my brother Ira, who supplied the lyrics. Anyway, let's try it.

[Terry Gross]

Too bad George didn't sing and couldn't sing his brother's lyric.

[Robert Kimball]

Well, he. He did sing and times when he and Ira were trying to put things together. And Todd Duncan said laughingly when he heard them audition songs from Porgy and Bess for him, that they had the God awfullest voices he'd ever heard, the two of them. But he said at the same time that it was so incredible and so real to hear how they presented their songs.

[Terry Gross]

Well, why don't we listen to Ira Gershwin singing one of his own songs and see what kind of voice he has? And you've brought something with you. Yes, that he. With Ira Gershwin singing Harold Arlen at the piano song that they wrote together.

[Robert Kimball]

This is a song written in 1936 for Fred Astaire for Shall We Dance. And it's called hi Ho. And it had a very specific idea that Fred would kind of walk through the street seeing this girl on a poster and would then respond to it. The scene was never shot and the song was never, obviously, in the film. And over 30 years later, a number of friends of Ira's had said that

[Commentator/Expert]

really it should get published.

[Robert Kimball]

It was such a wonderful song.

[Commentator/Expert]

But he occasionally would do it at parties.

[Robert Kimball]

And I think this is from a party performance that Harold Arlen, a great composer and performer in his own right, is at the piano. And we hear Ira Gershwin singing hi Ho, a 1936 song written for Fred Astaire.

[Singer/Performer]

At last it seems I found her Now I won't be happy Till my arms are around her. Oh, hi if a kiss she'd only throw me O me, O my her charm her smile so sweet and dimplee I want them or I'll simply die

[Terry Gross]

Ira Gershwin singing his lyric. The melody was written by George Gershwin. Harold Arlin is at the piano. Well, you wouldn't say Ira Gershwin has a great voice, but he sings with gusto and can certainly put his lyric across.

[Robert Kimball]

Terry. This song actually was, I think, the first song that George and Ira wrote during the last year of George's life. When they arrived in Hollywood, I think they were still at one of the hotels before they found the house on. On the Roxbury where they lived. And 11 months was all that George Gershwin had left. And if we think about what they wrote during that 11 month period, you know, slap that bass, I've got beginner's luck. They all laughed. Let's call the whole thing off. They can't take that away from me. I can't be bothered now. Stiff upper lip. Things are looking up. A foggy day and then the last, even to the very end George's last song After Love Walked in and others. He then, without completing the verse, his last song was Love Is Here to Stay. All those were written in less than a year and they are among the greatest songs written in this century by any writers.

[Terry Gross]

Since we just heard Arlen accompanying Ira Gershwin. Why don't we talk about a song that Arlen wrote with Ira Gershwin? And I'm thinking of the man that Got Away.

[Robert Kimball]

I think we should say that certainly to let people know that when George died, it took a long time for Ira to get back to work. And it was listening to some recordings that Fred Astaire made of their songs that made him believe that maybe he should try again. And then during the rest of his years he worked with a number of great writers, including Jerome Kern, with whom he wrote Long Ago and Far Away, a great standard. And he wrote film scores with Harold Arlin. And one of the songs from Star Is Born is one of the greatest songs that Judy Garland ever sang, of course, the man that Got Away. And it is a fabulous song and I probably should say nothing more. We should hear it.

[Terry Gross]

Why don't we hear Harold Arlen singing the man that Got Away?

[Singer/Performer]

The night is bitter the stars have lost their glitter the winds grow colder and star, suddenly you're older and all because of the man that got away. No more his eager call the writings on the wall the dreams you dream have all gonna stray.

[Terry Gross]

That's Harold Arlen singing a wonderful song with music by Arlen and a lyric by Ira Gershwin. It's so Ira Gershwin that he explains why the lyric became the man that Got Away as opposed to the more grammatically correct the man who Got Away. Do you want to explain his explanation for it?

[Robert Kimball]

The man that Got Away is of course, an interesting title and people always wanted to sing it, the man who Got Away, but Ira didn't like that and he said that the title had Come as a paraphrase of something that he had heard and is often used. Fisherman's. You should have seen the one that got away. That meaning it's somewhat larger in scope. Wasn't just a person, it was a whole world that left, not just an individual who departed from one's life.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Life.

[Terry Gross]

You knew Ira Gershwin in the last years of his life. Was he still writing songs? Is he still listening to a lot of music? What was his life like at the end?

[Robert Kimball]

Well, Ira actually stopped writing in the mid-50s and really retired. He retired and then he wrote his book lyrics on several occasions, which had 104 of his lyrics. This book has 730. And he. He was really retired. I mean, it was amazing. In their early years, George and Ira moved every few months. Ira counted that in the first 16 years of his life, they moved 28 times. That's really quite a lot of moving.

[Terry Gross]

Sure is.

[Robert Kimball]

Three months rent would take the Gershwin family from one part of New York to another. Ira really completely shut down, in a sense. He didn't go out. And when I knew him, he rarely went beyond the backyard or the front

[Commentator/Expert]

walk for a walk.

[Robert Kimball]

He basically found everything he needed inside with, you know, with television. He could watch sports events.

[Commentator/Expert]

He could read.

[Robert Kimball]

He could entertain his friends and people came to see him. He could write letters to young children. The thing I think he loved doing most, aside from reminiscing and really telling

[Commentator/Expert]

stories about the old days, which he

[Robert Kimball]

did very, very well, was to receive a letter from a child asking a question, innocent question, well, how did you

[Commentator/Expert]

work with your brother?

[Robert Kimball]

Or what is songwriting like? He would spend days formulating an answer to a letter like that.

[David Biancooli]

Robert Kimball speaking to Terry Gross in 1994. He died last week at age 86. After a break, we'll hear an excerpt from another of their conversations. Also, we'll have two TV reviews. Critic at large John Powers reviews season two of the TV series Sugar, starring Colin Farrell. And I review the new remake of Little House on the Prairie. I'm David Biancooli, and this is Fresh air.

[Singer]

You say either and I say either. You say neither and I say neither, either, either, neither, neither. Let's call the whole thing off. You like potato and I like potato. You like tomato and I like tomato, tomato, potato, potato, tomato, tomato. Let's call the whole thing off. But, oh, if we call the whole thing off, then we must part. And, oh, if we ever part, then that might break my heart. So if you like pajamas and I like pajamas, I'll wear pajamas and give up pajamas.

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[Narrator/Announcer]

President Trump says the ceasefire with Iran is over this week on Consider this. A former high ranking US Diplomat shares his thoughts on what could happen next.

[Robert Kimball]

The rulers in Tehran clearly believe they have a stronger will than the United States. I don't think there are any good options.

[Narrator/Announcer]

That's this week on Consider this. You can get the full story behind the headlines every afternoon. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Rivian, makers of the all electric three row R1S SUV and the always capable R1T pickup, designed with the planet and future generations in mind. Learn more or schedule a demo [e-mail]

[David Biancooli]

this is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David B. Cooley. That's one of the best known melodies composed by Eubie Blake. He was part of the pioneering black songwriting team of Noble, Sissel and Eubie Blake. We're remembering musical theater historian Robert Kimball, who died last week at the age of 86. He helped rediscover the work of Cisill and Blake. We're going to listen back to a portion of our 1998 show about Eubie Blake and hear selections from Sissel and Blake's 1921 hit musical shuffle along, which changed Broadway. It was created by and starred African Americans and it brought new syncopated rhythms and dances to Broadway. It even helped launch the Harlem Renaissance. Shuffle along was revived on Broadway in 2016. To perform the music are actor singer Vernell Bonarese, who co created and starred in a Jelly Roll Morton review and the New Orleans Music Review 1 mo time and at the piano, Dick Hyman, an expert in the piano styles of the 1910s, 20s and 30s.

[Terry Gross]

Some of the songs we'll be hearing today are from shuffle along, Evie Blake's 1921 musical written with Noble S. And this is really a landmark musical in the history of the Broadway stage. Robert Kimball, what's so important about Shuffle Along?

[Commentator/Expert]

Musically, Shuffle along described Itself accurately as a musical melange. It brought together so many diverse styles and influences. You hear operetta in a song like Love Will Find a Way very important. And it was a very courageous decision for Cecil and Blake to have a beautiful ballad that could have come right out of a Jerome Kern show as part of their score. It also reflected the vaudeville acts of the four creators, Miller and Lyles, who were the book writers of Shuffle along, had these wonderful sketches that they did together. And it was their comic routines that provided the basis for the books that they wrote for Shuffle along and other musicals of that period. And then you had Cicelyn Blake's remarkable vaudeville act, which was really crucial. And it was an extended 15 or 20 minute sequence which would involve a diversity of materials. And it was the coming together of all these different influences that made Shuffle along special. Another part about Shuffle along that has always struck me very forcefully is that because there were no other black musicals on Broadway when they gathered the talent together to bring Shuffle along to Broadway, they were able to obtain the very best talent in the black community.

[Terry Gross]

Who are some of the people who come out of Shuffle Along?

[Commentator/Expert]

We think of certainly. Well, one person who you don't think of was Paul Robeson. He was a member of the cast of Shuffle Along. The most beloved of the black artists of the twenties, Florence Mills, was from Shuffle Along. In many ways, the most famous of performers from that period who later went on to achieve great renown in Europe was Josephine Baker. She was from Shuffle Along. Two great figures in music were played in Euby's Orchestra. Hall Johnson, whose choir was world renowned. And the extraordinary composer William Grant still played the oboe in the Shuffle Along Orchestra. These are just some of the great people who were part of that show.

[Terry Gross]

For now. Dick, I'm going to ask you to do a song from Shuffle Along. This is called I'm Craving for that Kind of Love. It was the showstopper of the musical. You want to do it for us?

[Robert Kimball]

It'll be great.

[Terry Gross]

Great.

[Singer]

I'm wishing and fishing and trying to hook someone sweet like you'd meet in a book I'll be her Romeo I won't be no phony O she may be the baby of some other guy I'll take him and make him say bye bye and when I get her I will set her upon my knee and make my plea to kiss me, kiss me, kiss me with her tempting lips sweet as honey drips Press me, press me, press me to her loving breast While I gently rest Breathe love's tender sighs While I gaze Let me gaze into her eyes Eyes that will just hypnotize Then I know she'll whisper, whisper, whisper to me Soft and low Something nice, you know Honey, honey, honey when there's no one near my baby dear she'll say Huddle me, cuddle me, cling to me, sing to me, spoon to me croon to me sigh to me, cry to me I'm craving for that kind of love. Kiss me with attempting lips sweeter than honey drip. Whisper something soft and low Whisper something nice, you know Huddle me, cuddle me, cling to me, sing to me, spoon to me croon to me sigh to me, cry to me and I'm craving

[Singer/Performer]

for that kind of love.

[Terry Gross]

That's a really fun song. What influence did Shuffle along have on other Broadway musicals? As we were saying, you know, it brings this kind of mix of a light opera sound and ragtime and syncopation.

[Commentator/Expert]

I would think, musically, and knowing from what I've heard from Irving Berlin and others, that Mr. Berlin said that the impact of Shuffle along was extraordinary in that there's no question that the kind of syncopated songs that he wrote after, like Everybody Step and Pack up your Sins and Go to the Devil, which were for the Music Box reviews, were influenced by songs like the Baltimore Buzz Craven for that Kind of Love, which he heard in. In Shuffle along, it's hard to imagine Gershwin's Fascinating Rhythm without hearing what Cecil and Blake were doing before Robert Kimball.

[Terry Gross]

You rediscovered Eubie Blake and Noble Sissel in the late 1960s. How did you meet him? How did you find him?

[Commentator/Expert]

I would say that I was one of the people who helped rediscover Euby. It happened this way. I was at that time the curator of the Yale American Musical Theatre Collection, and I was looking to build the archives in New Haven. And one day I was speaking to John Lahr, the writer, and he said, my father, his father, Burt Lahr, the great actor, comedian, suggested that the very first people you should contact me contact were Noble Sissel and Eubie Blake. So actually, it was Burt Lahr who arranged for John Lahr and myself to go up and meet Noble Sissel. And this would have been, I'm sure, in the spring of 1967. And we had visited Sissel. He told us, maybe just weeks before he was going to throw out all his old files and his old materials, that he said, no one is interested in them. There's no reason to keep them. And by this miracle we were able to get there in time. We didn't know how close we were to losing this extraordinary heritage? Well, he said, if this interests you fellows, I'll call my old pal up and go out and visit him in Brooklyn. So he made a phone call and he said, I have these two boys here who'd like to meet you and we could come out. So Sissel drove us out to 284A Stuyvesant Avenue, where Eubie and Marion Blake lived. As Ub said, when he married Marion, I got the coop with the chicken. It was her house that he was moving into, and we were greeted there by Eubie. And the afternoon that I spent there was one of the most memorable of my life.

[David Biancooli]

Robert Kimball speaking to Terry Gross in 1998. In 2001, he spoke to Terry again about songwriter Irving Berlin, who wrote many classic American songs, including Blue Skies, Cheek to Cheek, there's no Business Like Show Business and White Christmas. Kimball had co edited a collection of Berlin's lyrics with Berlin's daughter Linda Emmett. Terry spoke to Robert Kimball shortly after the 911 attacks.

[Terry Gross]

Having put together the book of Irving Berlin lyrics, is there a lyric or two that particularly stands out to you, either in the rhyme scheme or in the sentiment it expresses or in the way it captures the moment that it

[Robert Kimball]

was written in Terry That's a very

[Commentator/Expert]

hard question, but I could think of a few, obviously, one of which I've thought about a lot. And recently, certainly in recent weeks, there's a song that was introduced by Fred Astaire, and the sentiments in the lyric are really, really, really timely. Lines like there may be trouble ahead and there may be teardrops to shed. Of course, I'm speaking of a song. Let's Face the Music and Dance, which was introduced in the 1936 film Follow the Fleet, is certainly one of Mr. Berlin's greatest songs.

[Singer/Performer]

There may be trouble ahead, but while there's moonlight and music and love and romance, let's face the music and dance before the fiddlers have played, before they are ask us to pay the bill. And while we still have the chance, let's face the music and dance. Soon we'll be without the moon, humming a different tune, and then there may be teardrops to shed.

[David Biancooli]

Robert Kimball spoke to Terry in 2001. The author and musical historian died last week. He was 86 years old. Coming up, I review the new remake of Little House on the Prairie, based on the popular series of books by Laura Ingalls Wilder. This is FRESH air.

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[David Biancooli]

I'm TV critic David Biancooley. Netflix is presenting a new version of Little House on the Prairie, based on the popular series of books by Laura Ingalls Wilder. All eight episodes of season one are now available to stream, and Netflix already has ordered a season two. It's a story from our nation's early frontier history and has quite a history of its own in print and even on television. When Laura Ingalls Wilder started writing her Little House on the Prairie book series in the early 1930s, it was as a fond salute to her own childhood memories. Laura was born shortly after the Civil War in 1867 in the very log cabin she describes in her first book, Little House in the Big Woods. That book and her later ones detailed the joys, the difficulties and the hard work involved in pioneer life as seen and told from the perspective of a precocious young girl. Laura loved her ma and PA and her siblings, but she observed them all carefully and perceptively. She was to Little House on the Prairie what John Boy was to the Waltons, another nostalgic family TV series set during an earlier time, in that case the Depression. The characters of both John Boy and Laura displayed a gift for writing early on and narrated their family's stories. When Michael Landon, after spending years as Little Joe on Bonanza, brought Little House on the Prairie to NBC in the 1970s, he cast himself as the patriarch Pa Ingalls. But the storytelling, as in the books, belonged to Little Laura, played in that series by a young Melissa Gilbert.

[Narrator/Actor]

If I had a remembrance book, I would mark down how it was when we left our little house in the big woods to go west to Indian territory.

[David Biancooli]

That little house series was very popular and ran from 1974 to 1983. Especially in the early episodes, it was faithful to the original books and characters. When an Osage Indian chief came by the Ingalls cabin, Pa invited him in for a sit and a smoke. Ma was frightened, as was Laura's elder sister, and was relieved when he left. But Laura was charmed and sympathetic to his tribe's plight. What Laura says in that 1974 premiere may sound like liberal Hollywood rewriting, but the empathic dialogue, like much of the TV series, came straight from the original books.

[Narrator/Actor]

Thank goodness he's gone.

[Singer/Performer]

Why? I thought it was kind of nice.

[Narrator/Actor]

Born Indian.

[Singer/Performer]

Well, I wouldn't be upset about it. A few months from now, there won't be an Indian left in the territory.

[Narrator/Actor]

But why not, Pa?

[Singer/Performer]

Government's gonna make a move half by night.

[Narrator/Actor]

Move where?

[Robert Kimball]

West, I guess.

[Narrator/Actor]

I'm glad I'm not. Does Odat Duchene have to go, too? Even though he's a chief?

[Robert Kimball]

I'm afraid so.

[Narrator/Actor]

It's not fair. They were here first.

[David Biancooli]

The new incarnation of Little House on the Prairie is created for TV by Rebecca Sonnenschein. Her writing credits include episodes of the TV series the Boys and the Vampire Diaries. She and the show's other writers, as well as the directors, take some liberties with their new version. They introduce an entire family of Osage characters, for example, to present another set of family dynamics. One thing they don't mess with, though, is Laura as the central voice. She's played here by Alice Halsey, whom you may remember as the brilliant daughter on Lessons in Chemistry. And her performance is the show's very best. A show that starts as before with Laura's opening narration.

[Narrator/Actor]

Once upon a time, Pa and Ma and Mary and Laura left their house in the big woods of Wisconsin. Ma was sad to leave her life behind, but Pa said it was getting too crowded and we needed a fresh start in the West. Every day the horses traveled as far as they could and Pa and Ma made camp in a new place.

[David Biancooli]

Warren Christie is another standout. He plays John Edwards, a Civil War veteran and sometimes drunken loner who agrees to help the Ingalls build their log cabin before winter sets in. Charles, that's Pa to Laura, likes him. But Caroline, that's Ma, fears him as much as she does the Osage and sends him away. Luke Bracey plays Pa and Crosby Fitzgerald plays Caroline.

[Narrator/Actor]

He's not coming back. What?

[Robert Kimball]

He was drinking here at our home.

[Terry Gross]

He said he didn't do it while you work, but I. I didn't believe him.

[Commentator/Expert]

What'd you say?

[Narrator/Actor]

I told him not to come back

[Robert Kimball]

until he didn't need something to chase the ships.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Doesn't work like that.

[Robert Kimball]

You don't just snap your fingers and

[Narrator/Actor]

make it go away.

[Robert Kimball]

His wife is gone. His girls are gone. He got chewed up and spit out by the godforsaken.

[Narrator/Actor]

You knew. You knew and you didn't say anything.

Caroline, we are alone at sea. We don't have room for this obsession with virtue. It's not virtue.

[Terry Gross]

I don't want to lose my family again.

[Narrator/Actor]

Finish this house without it.

[David Biancooli]

Their argument is intense, but as filmed, there's something off about it. Like many other scenes in this new Little House on the Prairie, it's shot by handheld cameras in extreme close up and calls too much attention to itself. Also, some of the dramatic plot points that work so well in the books and in the NBC series are less effective here because they're not established or presented as well. The familiar title of Little House on the Prairie may bring lots of viewers to this new version, but I can't say it really resonates, except for the performances of Alice Halsey as Laura and Warren Christie as Mr. Edwards. But I will say that the entire original series of Little House on the Prairie is is available to stream on Peacock. And when I dove back in there to refresh my memory, that series really did resonate. Coming up, critic at large John Powers reviews the new season of Sugar, starring Colin Farrell as a private eye with a secret, quite a secret. This is FRESH air.

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[Narrator/Actor]

This week on sources and methods. Fresh strikes between Iran and the United States. Is the war back on?

[Narrator/Announcer]

What Iran wants is to basically charge

[Commentator/Expert]

a toll or insurance fees to go through the Strait of Hormuz. That may be the way out of this.

[Narrator/Actor]

Plus President Trump's surprise promise to Ukraine. Listen now on sources and methods on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator/Announcer]

The knockout phase of the World cup is underway.

[Robert Kimball]

At every stage, the excitement level goes

[Singer]

up and up and up, creating core

[Robert Kimball]

memories with strangers in a foreign land.

[Terry Gross]

This is what it's really about.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Coverage of the highs and lows from the NPR Network continues. Find the World cup tab in the NPR app for more

[Singer/Performer]

foreign.

[David Biancooli]

This is FRESH air. The Apple TV series Sugar stars Colin Farrell As John Sugar, an LA private eye with the strangest of secrets. Its second season is currently being released and finds him seeking a missing person in areas of Los Angeles you won't find in the tourist brochures. Our critic at large, John Powers, says that Sugar has a strange, starry eyed allure that he found irresistible.

[Narrator/Actor]

Aliens from outer space come in basically two kinds. The first are murderous invaders that need to be destroyed. Think alien or predator. In more complex stories like the man who Fell to Earth or arrival, the ETs don't come to wreak havoc, but to engage with our world, often discovering what it means to be human. The latter is what you get in Sugar, the seductive Apple TV series whose second season is now unfolding here. The alien, played by a terrific Colin Farrell, doesn't merely travel between planets, but between genres. He learns to be human by becoming a private eye in Los Angeles. Or maybe a fantasy of a private eye, one who tools around LA in a vintage Corvette stingray, sports immaculately tailored suits and has a spirit so pure he makes Philip Marlowe seem sinister, wrapping noir inside science fiction. Or maybe the other way around. Sugar injects fresh feeling into storylines that have grown more than a little musty now. Sugar's first season was nearly impossible to review because its shocking reveal that private detective John Sugar is actually from another planet didn't come until episode six, so late you couldn't intelligently discuss the series without spoiling it. In his final episode, we learn that Sugar is part of a team of aliens sent to Earth to monitor and observe. But they've been betrayed and must flee our planet to avoid being killed. Sugar stays behind in season two. Cut off from his home planet, he's back to detective work, where the first season's client was a Hollywood mogul. This new one moves us into the LA of the powerless. Sugar takes the case of aspiring boxer Danny Moon, played by Jin Ha, a Korean immigrant who wants him to find his missing brother, who has dangerous men on his tail. Sugar quickly finds himself faced with Latino street gangs and a dirty cop named Vega, played with menacingly placid amusement by Tony Dalton, who you may know as the psycho Lalo Salamanca in Better Call Saul. Clearly needing help, Sugar hires a streetwise assistant. She's played by Sasha Calle, and calls in favors from his scruffy police pal, slyly played by Shea Whigham. Naturally, there's also a mysterious woman, Charlotte, the wonderful Irish actress Laura Donnelly, who just as naturally has eyes for Sugar. Heck, he's Colin Farrell as part of his interplanetary mission, Sugar has been ordered not to assimilate. Eat no meat, have no sex, don't kill anybody. But as the story progresses, with the amoral Vega looking unstoppable and Charlotte coming on pretty darn sexy, we wonder if he'll be corrupted into violating those taboos. Here you sense temptation coming when he first meets Charlotte in a bar.

[Singer/Performer]

Hello.

[Narrator/Actor]

Hi.

[Terry Gross]

I don't mean it is. Have we met before?

[Robert Kimball]

I don't think so.

[Singer/Performer]

Zork.

[Robert Kimball]

The sustainability conference. That wasn't you? No, no, my mistake. Not at all. John Sugar.

[Terry Gross]

Sugar?

[Capella University Announcer]

Like what? Sweet,

[Robert Kimball]

I suppose I'm Charlotte. Like the web.

[Terry Gross]

Like the spider's web.

[Narrator/Actor]

The late, great David lynch said that what drew him into a story was a mood, a mental atmosphere. He wanted to be inside. I get that in Sugar, with its riffs on genres. I love its undertow of City Light's melancholy and the way Sugar's alien ness puts a spin on everything from the heightened way L. A is shot to his philosophical ruminations on existence. Sugar learned about Earth by watching old pictures like Casablanca. He's now a film buff and one of the show's stylistic trademarks is to cut in clips from black and white movies that echo what he's experiencing in the story. Even when this technique feels a bit mannered, these clips remind us that Sugar often approaches life through the mythologizing of the Hollywood dream machine. Rather like us. Come to think of it, it's one of the best science fiction cliches that aliens often possess more humanity than human beings. The empathetic Sugar certainly does, whether he's quietly washing the dishes for the grandmother of a murder victim, believing villains would go straight if only they could. Seeing himself in LA's uprooted immigrants and unhoused people, or reacting in horror at how heartlessly the dispossessed are treated. This city breaks your heart, he tells us. While we might mock a human detective for being so unhard, Boiled Ferrell wins us over with the subtlety and charm we expect from his performances. Deploying his charisma with great discretion, he gives us a Sugar who may look like a perfectly cool detective, but whose interactions have an earnest, awkward, off kilter honesty that gives every scene an offbeat twirl. In fact, one of the very best things about the show is that, like its hero, it isn't cynical. Sugar lives in the elegant Hotel del Corazon, the hotel of the heart, and this seems just right. Far, far from home. John Sugar is a lonely soul lost in space, but forever trying to do the right thing.

[David Biancooli]

John Powers reviewed Sugar, starring Colin Farrell, now in its second season on Apple tv. In the new comedy film the Invite, an unhappily married couple invite the couple upstairs over for an uncomfortable and rain revelatory dinner party on Monday's show. The film's screenwriters, Rashida Jones and Will McCormick, they're longtime writing and producing partners as well as actors. Hope you can join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Julian Hertzfeld and Charlie Kyer. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm David Biancooli.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Whether you're dedicated to a team, I

[Narrator/Actor]

want to see them win.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Rooting for a nation. I'm not even a soccer fan, but I'm just repping my people. Or just appreciate the joy the beautiful game inspires.

[Terry Gross]

No Scotland, no party.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Find the World cup tab in the NPR app, home to all of NPR's coverage on and off the pitch.

[Robert Kimball]

So you've decided you want to be more active? Exercise scientist Keith Diaz says put away the smartwatch.

[Narrator/Actor]

Start by noticing your body's natural cues. For us to build a habit to

[Robert Kimball]

check back in with our bodies, that

[Narrator/Actor]

behavior is much more likely to stick.

[NPR Announcer]

Tracking what the body needs. That's on the TED Radio Hour podcast. Listen on the NPR app or wherever

[Robert Kimball]

you get your podcasts.