Remembering ‘The Man Who Listens to Horses’

Summary

Fresh Air – Remembering ‘The Man Who Listens to Horses’

Original Air Date: August 7, 2026
Host: Terry Gross (archive interview), David Bianculli
Guest: Monty Roberts (Interview from 1997)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Fresh Air commemorates the life and legacy of Monty Roberts, an internationally renowned horse trainer famous for his gentle and revolutionary "join-up" method. After news of his passing at 91, Fresh Air revisits a 1997 interview between Terry Gross and Roberts, where he recounted his departure from abusive horse training traditions, his innovations based on horses' own nonverbal "language," and his influence on both the horse world and beyond. The episode also touches on his storied relationship with Queen Elizabeth II, his tumultuous upbringing, and how lessons from horses guided his philosophy in life and with foster children.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Transition from "Breaking" to "Starting":

• Roberts’ Early Exposure:
  • Grew up in Salinas, CA, around horses due to his father’s riding school.
  • Initially trained under his father's traditional, often brutal methods.
• On Conventional Methods:

  "The main concept is: you do what I tell you to or I’ll hurt you ... using pain or corporal punishment, acting out in violence to train the animal."
  — Monty Roberts (02:14)

• Roberts’ Departure:
  • Rejected pain and coercion.
  • His method, "join-up," focused on communication, trust, and mutual respect.

The “Join-Up” Method:

• Concept: Based on horse-to-horse communication in wild herds.
• Key Procedures:
  1. Sending Away: Utilizing body language (direct eye contact, square shoulders, open fingers) to signal the horse to move away — the horse’s equivalent of discipline through isolation.
  2. Invitation to Return: Reading when the horse signals readiness to reconcile (ear turned toward trainer, licking/chewing, lowering head, head movements), then shifting to passive, open body language to invite the horse back.

  "After those four [signals], then I go passive from aggressive ... inviting the horse to come in."
  — Monty Roberts (07:55)

• Key Principle:

  "I ask the horse to do them so as to cause a state of mind whereby he wants to do them, not because he's forced to do them."
  — Monty Roberts (03:50)

Learning from Wild Mustangs (09:16)

• Insightful Moment:
  • Observed wild mustang behavior in Sierra Nevada, initially to save horses from slaughter after wild horse races.
  • Wild mustangs were his “university,” teaching him natural equine language and herd dynamics.

    "What actually happened that was of much more importance to me was ... it was a university. They were my teachers, the wild horses."
    — Monty Roberts (09:16)

• Matriarchal Herds:
  • Recognized the mare as the leader, not the stallion—a revelation contrary to common belief.

    "The first thing I noticed was that the matriarch was the decision maker of the sociological group."
    — Monty Roberts (10:53)

In-Depth: Horse Body Language

• Ears as Communication:

  "You can read pretty much the intentions and the concerns of a horse by his ears ... they tell you whether they're angry, happy, tired, or fresh."
  — Monty Roberts (12:23–12:46)

Addressing "Problem Horses" (13:15)

• Perspective Shift:

  "There's no such thing as a problem horse. There are horses who have problems with people."

• Rehabilitation Example:
  • Song of Africa: A filly considered untrainable; after harsh methods failed, Roberts restored her trust in four days.

    "In four days she simply said, this will be fine. I will do this. And she's racing and winning."
    — Monty Roberts (14:52)

Legacy and Influence

• Training People Not Just Horses:
  • Roberts insisted on teaching caretakers his methods to sustain positive changes.
  • His approach inspired horse owners, trainers, and even Queen Elizabeth II, who encouraged him to write his memoir and who supported his gentle philosophy.

Stunt Riding Career (16:55)

• Hollywood Work:
  • Doubled for stars like Elizabeth Taylor in National Velvet, Mickey Rooney, and Charlton Heston.
  • Specialized in dramatic horse stunts — riding down steep hills, hanging off horses, trampoline-assisted tricks.

    "If there were rocks and sand flying and you went into the trees or into the river, that was probably me."
    — Monty Roberts (17:48)

Reflections on Rodeo and Bulls (22:19)

• Empathy with Bulls:

  • Despite winning championships in bull events, Roberts expressed deep empathy for bulls, dismissing the idea of mistreatment.

    "They get the best treatment you could ever imagine ... And they have great fun in what they do. They have the upper hand every single day."
    — Monty Roberts (23:36)

• On Bull Riding’s Danger:

  "It's stupid. It's really stupid for anybody to go into that."
  — Monty Roberts (24:16)

Foster Parenting Philosophy (25:11)

• Connection to Childhood:
  • Experienced abuse from his father — influenced his commitment to foster care.
• Application of Horse Psychology:

  "I used all the principles. The same psychology. Give them a chance to fail so they can have that chance to succeed. When they fail, they're responsible ... when they succeed, they're also responsible."
  — Monty Roberts (27:41)

Coping with Physical Limits (29:01)

• After Major Back Surgery:
  • More cautious in his work, but found that going slower for safety often led to better results.

    "If you go at something with a horse as though you have all day ... might take you about 15 minutes, but if you go at it like you have 15 minutes, might take you all day."
    — Monty Roberts (29:01)

Relationships with Favorite Horses (30:29)

• Johnny Tibio:
  • Rescued and rehabilitated horse, won four world championships together.

    "He was like a brother, like a very close brother would be."
    — Monty Roberts (30:32)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Break is a very good word. It's been used for about 6,000 years now to describe the procedures used to cause a horse to accept saddle, bridle, and rider."
  — Monty Roberts (03:36)

• "First sign I picked up on was how the dominant female was running the family group ... It's the mare who educates the young."
  — Monty Roberts (10:53)

• "I have great empathy for the bulls ... They have the upper hand every single day."
  — Monty Roberts (23:36)

• "Those odds are incredibly good when you consider kids between 11 and 13 coming to me already incarcerated ... It either took or it didn't."
  — Monty Roberts on foster children (26:55)

• "Give them a chance to fail so they can have that chance to succeed."
  — Monty Roberts (27:41)

• "I'm just one accident away from the wheelchair, if you will. So I'm much more protective now ... but sometimes I just go that bit slower and maybe it's even more effective."
  — Monty Roberts (29:01)

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Key Timestamps

• Monty’s childhood and father’s methods: 02:14–03:48
• Explanation of join-up and horse language: 03:50–08:26
• Learning from wild mustangs: 09:16–10:45
• Horse communication (ears, dominance): 12:23–12:57
• Rehabilitating “problem horses”: 13:15–16:55
• Stunt riding stories: 16:55–19:57
• Bull riding, empathy for animals: 22:19–25:11
• Foster parenting, psychology parallels: 25:11–27:41
• Dealing with age, injury, and work pace: 29:01–30:29
• Favorite horses and relationships: 30:29–31:33

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Tone & Style

The conversation is warm, reflective, and deeply personal. Monty Roberts speaks with candor about hardship, empathy, triumph, and regret, carrying an easy humility and steadfast belief in nonviolent training — whether for horses or humans. Terry Gross’ questions are probing yet gentle, drawing out anecdotes from Roberts’ extraordinary life.

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Summary Statement

This episode serves as a tribute to Monty Roberts’ lifelong campaign for more humane relationships with animals and people. His work, rooted in observation and empathy rather than force, left an indelible mark on horsemanship and opened doors for more compassionate approaches in training, parenting, and life.

Transcript

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[David Biancolli]

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[Monty Roberts]

Edu.

[David Biancolli]

This is FRESH air. I'm David Biancooley. Monte Roberts, the internationally acclaimed horseman who used trust instead of intimidation to train horses, died last week and he was 91. He defied the conventional method of breaking horses, something he watched his father do, and created his own gentler approach known as join up. He based it on the nonverbal language horses used to communicate with each other. It was a language he observed as a teenager watching wild mustangs in the Sierra Nevada. Roberts was born in salinas, California, in 1935. He grew up around horses, could ride confidently at three and by the time he was eight, said he spent 10 hour days working with horses competing on weekends. He became a champion rider and was a stunt rider in about a hundred movies, including as a young boy, the Elizabeth Taylor film National Velvet. He's trained thousands of horses, including wild horses, race horses and problem horses. Roberts became internationally known after Queen Elizabeth II brought him to work with her horses in 1989. She supported his controversial, gentle approach to horse training and urged him to write his memoir, the man who Listens to Horses, which became a bestseller in 1996. Their 30 year friendship was the subject of the 2023 Andrea Nevins documentary the Cowboy and the Queen. From his California ranch, Monty Roberts introduced his techniques to horse owners, trainers and students from around the world. He also traveled widely giving demonstrations. Terry Gross spoke to Monty Roberts in 1997, shortly after his memoir was published. Roberts first learned about horses from his father, who ran a riding school at the massive Salinas Rodeo. But Robert's father used pain and punishment to break horses.

[Monty Roberts]

Well, I suppose you'd say my father was a very traditional horse trainer, working in the conventional manner. And the main concept is you do what I tell you to or I'll hurt you. What it is is that whether I hurt you a lot or a little, it's dealing with negative reinforcement, the use of pain or corporal punishment, acting out in violence to train the animal not to do that thing that you're, you're against or you're working to avoid.

[Terry Gross]

So what approach to discipline and negative reinforcement did your father use?

[Monty Roberts]

Well, he would tie legs up on horses and tie them down on the ground. He would tie them to posts and work in such a way so as to frighten them and cause them to test those tethers to the maximum degree which would bash them very violently. Oftentimes they were on the ground. Oftentimes there was, there was blood and there was injury. It was all done in the vein that that's necessary to do to break this horse. And break is a very good word. It's been used for about 6,000 years now to describe the procedures used to cause a horse to accept saddle bridle and rider and training, if you will.

[Terry Gross]

What do you call your approach?

[Monty Roberts]

Starting. The approach itself is titled join up. But the procedure, I say starting the horse rather than breaking the horse because I don't use any pain or restraint and I request that the horse do the things I want. I don't demand it. I ask the horse to do them so as to cause a state of mind whereby he wants to do them, not because he's forced to do them.

[Terry Gross]

Your basic principle in training horses is to try to use horse language to communicate with the horses. To use horse behavior and horse language, which you learned from being with horses in the wild, which we'll get to in a few minutes. Describe your join up method of asking. Basically asking the horse first to go away and to then join up with you.

[Monty Roberts]

Yeah, well, it's their language and they use this business of sending the animal away. That is, they use it interspecie as well as intraspeciency. So they use this business of sending the animal away. Isolation, rejection as a discipline. And when that animals out there isolated, the flight animal, the animal who provides meat for the predator, is very concerned about that and they want to come back in the worst possible way. So that's the most severe punishment that you can deal a flight animal.

[Terry Gross]

A wild horse is more vulnerable to being preyed on when it's on its own than when it's with other horses.

[Monty Roberts]

Exactly. The isolated grazer or flight animal is smorgasbord for the lion or the tiger or the grizzly bear and that sort of thing. Even coyotes, but wolves certainly. And so they're very upset with that. And I discovered this language going on in the wild, watched how they communicated with one another, and then utilized those responses in order to request their compliance or their cooperation.

[Terry Gross]

So how do you first send the horse away which the horse doesn't like?

[Monty Roberts]

Well, that's easy because they're a flight animal. And if you're dealing with untrained animals, all you have to do is use the aggressive phrases in their own language and the animal goes away. That's the easy part.

[Terry Gross]

What aggressive Phrases in horse language do you use?

[Monty Roberts]

Well, first of all, it would be eyes on eyes, piercing the eyes. That does not draw the animal in as it would the grizzly or the great white, but it, it drives the horse away. Then shoulders square, all movement square, fingers open and extended, drives the horses away. There's lots of motions and positions of the body which mean go away.

[Terry Gross]

And how do you get the horse then to come back?

[Monty Roberts]

Well, once the horse has gone its flight distance, then they begin to communicate that they would like to come back. And they do that with basically four statements. One is with the ear to say, I respect you. I don't know what this is all about, but I'll give you my respect. And then two, that they'll try to come closer to you, just physically, but bending and trying to come closer to you. Three, that they lick and chew. They stick their tongue right out and then chew. And it's my opinion that they're saying, I'm a grazer, I'm a herbivore, I'm eating over here, and if I'm eating, I can't fear you because if we had any adrenaline or fear in us, we would have to stop eating. And then four, the dropping of the head down and bouncing the nose right along the ground. Which means, if we could have this meeting to renegotiate the deal, I would let you be the chairman of the meeting.

[Terry Gross]

So when the horse does all these things that you just mentioned, what signals are you giving? Like, come back, let's get together now?

[Monty Roberts]

Well, after those four, then I go passive from aggressive, those earlier ones that I mentioned. And passive means to take the eyes off the eyes, to lower your gaze, to put your shoulders on a 45 degree angle to the horse's body axis, to face slightly away and to round all your movements, inviting the horse to come in. There's dozens of movements, but those are the basic ones.

[Terry Gross]

You grew up on the grounds of a rodeo. Your parents ran a riding school, and you basically grew up in the rodeo. You won the National Intercollegiate Rodeo Bulldogging championship. You won all kinds of like, horse medals over the years. You started learning about horse language through, through observing wild mustangs in Sierra Nevada. And this relates to a wild horse race that used to be part of the rodeo. And when the wild horses were done with this race, the horses at the time you were young were taken to the slaughterhouse to be made into dog food. Something that you found very upsetting. So I want you to tell the story of how this wild horse race in which the horses Would later be taken out and slaughtered. How that relates to your observing of wild horses?

[Monty Roberts]

Well, yeah. Okay. The. The opportunity came up for me to go to Nevada and capture and bring these wild horses back to Salinas. My idea was that after the horse race was over, if I could put these horses through a program to cause them to accept saddle, bridle, and rider, that they could go through a sale and be usable by people and therefore save their lives. And not only that, but that they would pay more for them than the people at the slaughterhouse. And I convinced the president of the association that this might be true, and he let me go and do this as an experiment one year. And, in fact, it worked out well. I did that several years, and, you know, it became the normal thing. Now, that's all ancillary to what was really important in all of this, as we look back on it, because what actually happened that was of much more importance to me was that it was a university. They were my teachers, the wild horses.

[Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Monty Roberts]

It was just an incredible adventure in learning where I learned their language, spoken in the raw, spoken in the rarest form of freedom. Freedom. And completely without human intervention.

[Terry Gross]

What were the first signs you picked up on that made you realize there was a horse language that you could. That you could understand?

[Monty Roberts]

First sign I picked up on was how the dominant female was running the family group. She was the controller of the sociological aspects of the family group. And as a very young child, I'd seen the movies. I thought the black stallion was the one that ran all the show, you know. Well, the black stallion doesn't have any decisions to make at all, except how to get the mares pregnant and how to keep some other black stallion from taking them away. It's the mayor who educates the young and who communicates, who decides where we'll eat and which direction we'll travel. And that's the first thing I noticed, was that the matriarch was the decision maker of the sociological group.

[Terry Gross]

And then what did you notice about communication? How horses used the language with each other?

[Monty Roberts]

The first thing I noticed in the forms or expressions of communication was the mare squaring up and isolating the obstreperous teenager or adolescent.

[Terry Gross]

Mm. And then. And forcing them out of the group for a while as punishment.

[Monty Roberts]

Forcing them out of the group and holding them out of the group until they'd paid a price for their deed, whatever it was. And then how they allowed them back in and so forth and so on as you go through all of the expressions of their Language.

[Terry Gross]

You also studied horses, ears and what they communicate.

[Monty Roberts]

Oh, indeed. The ears are very expressive, and you can read pretty much the intentions and the concerns of a horse by his ears.

[Terry Gross]

And what do the ears tell you?

[Monty Roberts]

Well, they tell you everything. I mean, they tell you whether they're angry, whether they're happy. They tell you whether they're tired or

[Terry Gross]

fresh, depending on whether the ears are back or forward or.

[Monty Roberts]

Yeah, depending on their positions and their movement and the speed of their movement will tell you a lot of things about their concerns and their adrenaline levels and all of those things.

[Terry Gross]

Over the years, a lot of people have brought problem horses to you, horses with serious behavior problems, horses who seem to be trained or who actually attack people. How do you adapt your technique to work with horses who have behavioral problems?

[Monty Roberts]

Well, first of all, Terry, there's no such thing as a problem horse on the face of the earth. There are horses who have problems with people. But yes, you're right. There are a lot of horses that people term problem horses. And yes, you're right, they do bring them to me. And generally, after they've run the gamut to its maximum, and the horse is absolutely, you know, given up on by everybody else. And they call me in. An example of that, certainly, is Lomitas in Germany and more recently here in the United States, a filly called Song of Africa, who started her career in Ireland, thoroughbred for racing. And in her first race, she had a very serious time of it at the starting stalls or the starting gate just prior to the race. And she wound up being injured and crashing the gates all apart and being disqualified from the race. And it was a mess. And then she was put into some very harsh training to fix her, you know, and then the next thing you know, she was fighting people and she had scars all over her and was in desperate shape. And the trainer in Ireland suggested that she be taken to the United States, where they claim they have greater expertise in this kind of thing. And she landed on the east coast of the United States to be trained for another year or approximately that before the trainer said, you know, take her home and shoot her. She's just hopeless. And then I got the call, and at that moment in time, she was in a little place called Payson park in Florida. And I went there from California to meet the most incredibly beautiful but confused young female that you could ever imagine. And I worked with her for four days. Mind you, it had been two and a half years that they had gone the other way. And in four days she simply said, this will be Fine. I will do this. And she's racing and winning. She's one of the best fillies in the United States today.

[Terry Gross]

What do you think it is that you were able to do that turned her attitude around to give her trust

[Monty Roberts]

in the human being? She never had trust before because she'd been beaten up, she'd been caused pain by human beings to say, you must do this or I'll hurt you.

[Terry Gross]

So when you handed her back to her owner, did you have to convince her owner to never use punishment on the horse again?

[Monty Roberts]

I never would have left California if I hadn't had an agreement to give me a young person from their organization who would learn all of the techniques that I used with this particular filly. Now, I can't teach that person all that I know in four days, but I can specifically deal with the problems of this filly and teach them enough to handle the problems of this one individual horse. And they handed me a young man, oddly enough, coincidentally, from Ireland by the name of David Duggan. And he has continued to do my work to extend my communication with this filly so that successfully she's been able to go on and do her racing.

[Terry Gross]

As a child, you were a stunt rider, and you, I think, doubled for Elizabeth Taylor in National Velvet. You did some work in My Friend Flicka. You doubled Ferrattie McDowell, Mickey Rooney, Charlton Heston, Tab Hunter, to name a few. Do you have a favorite stunt that you had to do in the films?

[Monty Roberts]

I suppose they. The movies makers tend to categorize you, and they say, oh, we're gonna do this. Ah, that guy Roberts, he does that about the best of anybody. It seems to me that my spot became most famous in the riding of horses down very steep hills, rocky sandy hills where you blast straight down into the river and stuff like that.

[Terry Gross]

I've seen that in a thousand Westerns.

[Monty Roberts]

Yeah, well, that was me. That is to say, if you saw one made in the 40s or 50s, I was probably involved. If there were rocks and sand flying and you went into the trees or into the river, that was probably me.

[Terry Gross]

So what were some of the things you have to do to stay on the horse and make that work?

[Monty Roberts]

I always said you get high. That is to say, you get light on the horse and you get high above him, and you try not to interfere with his own movements so that he has the best chance of keeping his feet. And then as you approach, let's say, the river, that you separate from him and get distance enough so that he can't hurt you when you go into the water and you basically leave him alone as much as possible.

[Terry Gross]

Did you do any of that fancy showy stuff like sidesaddle riding and when you're holding onto the saddle and your body is suspended on the side of the horse while you're dodging bullets from the bad guy who's shoot from behind a rock?

[Monty Roberts]

That was one of the first stunts they asked me to do. I said, can you gallop left to right and make yourself invisible by hanging off the far side? Yeah, yeah, I did a lot of that. And jumping on from behind. Yes. And I used the mini trampoline a lot.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, wait, wait. What'd you use that for?

[Monty Roberts]

Well, so that you thought I could jump 8ft high when I could.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, so that's how it's done.

[Monty Roberts]

Yeah. I didn't realize that little trampolines are very handy for that kind of. And yeah, I had to do all that. The vaulting. You come out of the bar and grab the saddle horn and the horse runs down the street and you hang on his side and then vault into the saddle so that you can catch up to the bank robbers or whatever? Yep, I did all those kind of things. Jumped the horse through the bar room window and up the stairs and into the saloon or whatever.

[David Biancolli]

Monty Roberts speaking with Terry Gross in 1997. After a break, we'll continue their conversation. Also, Martin Johnson reviews Jason Moran plays Duke Ellington and Justin Chang reviews the new film biography of Anthony Bourdain. I'm David Biancooley and this is FRESH air.

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[David Biancolli]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David B. And Cooley. We're remembering Monty Roberts, the horse trainer who pioneered and advocated a more gentle approach to training horses. His philosophy was embraced and supported by Queen Elizabeth II, beginning a friendship that lasted 30 years. When she died in 2022 at age 96, he was one of the invited guests at her royal funeral. Monty Roberts died last week at age 91. Terry Gross spoke to him in 1997.

[Terry Gross]

When you were a young man, you worked in rodeos, and one of the things you did was the bull riding events. You've won a championship in that area. You describe that as the most dangerous event in the rodeo. Why?

[Monty Roberts]

Yeah, I won a couple of small championships in bull riding. I won my major championship in bulldogging. But bull riding is a very dangerous event. And it's dangerous because the bull generally weighs between 1400 and 2000 pounds, and they move with unbelievable agility and they don't want you on their back. And they can be very dangerous. And what they do to you oftentimes flings you through the air for 30 or 40ft and bashes you up against some wall or fence or throw you down and jump on top of you kind of thing. It's just really dangerous. And virtually everybody that goes into it suffers significant injuries at one point or another.

[Terry Gross]

Well, here's what I want to know. You're somebody who has such a strong kinship with horses, tries to communicate with them in their own language. Do you feel any empathy with the bulls?

[Monty Roberts]

Yeah, I love bulls.

[Terry Gross]

You do?

[Monty Roberts]

I love them to death. And my son became a very good bull rider later, and he was absolutely in love with bulls. I mean, we had bulls in training programs to teach them to buckle. And I have great empathy for the bulls. And don't ever feel that those bulls are being mistreated. They get the best treatment you could ever imagine. They get the best of feed and care, and they're protected by their owners to the maximum degree. And they have great fun in what they do. They have the upper hand every single day.

[Terry Gross]

What does it feel like to be thrown by a bull?

[Monty Roberts]

It hurts a lot, and it's loud noises when your head hits the ground and stuff. It's stupid. It's really stupid for anybody to go into that.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I was going to ask you, what is the point of this event?

[Monty Roberts]

It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. But when you're raised around it and you watch your peers accomplishing something so incredibly overwhelming by riding this particular bull, there's some kind of urge within us crazy human beings to try to do that, too. And I. I really didn't like my son going into it. He's a practicing lawyer. He's a 3.7 graduate from Stanford in econ. Why would you put that brain in such great jeopardy? You know, but it ran its course and. And he got out of it without serious injury, and I'm very pleased for that.

[Terry Gross]

As we discussed earlier, your father was a horse trainer, and he tried to whip horses into submission, to kind of beat them into submission. And I guess he used brutality on you, too, to try to keep you in line. And I'm wondering if that's related to the fact that you have adopted, I think, about 47 foster kids over the years for different intervals of time. Kids who had been abused or who had run into problems with the law. Do those two things relate?

[Monty Roberts]

Oh, sure they do. I didn't know they did when I began to do it. You see, I went through university in psychology, and I volunteered for every family psychology experiment or lab project that they had. And I really found myself enjoying this parent and children relationship and the psychology of children. So after I left university, people in the county and the state agencies saw great value in what I was doing, and they began to give me calls and recommend that there was a child locked up in Paso Robles, California, that they felt had great potential if just given a chance. Why don't you go meet them? You know, and they knew I was a sucker, and I'd go meet these kids and bring them home, and what can you do, man? I had to try to help. And my life was going pretty well. My horses were making me a little money, and I never asked for any money for these foster children to stay with me. And it just began an odyssey that went on for about 35 years. And those 47 foster children span about 35 years. So, you know, it wasn't like we had so many at one time, but it was a very gratifying thing to do. And there's about 40 very positive stories to tell in all of this and seven very negative stories to tell with no gray areas. And that's just the way it is. It either took or it didn't. But those odds are incredibly good when you consider kids between 11 and 13 coming to me already incarcerated in wards of the county, wards of the state type thing.

[Terry Gross]

Did you use any of the principles that you had learned working with horses when you were working with your children?

[Monty Roberts]

I used all the principles. The same principles. It's the same psychology. Give them a chance to fail so they can have that chance to succeed. When they fail, they're responsible for their own actions. But when they succeed, they're also responsible for their own actions. And they must get the most positive rewards that you can possibly think of to give them. Generally love, generally exaltation, moving upward, giving them advancements, giving them a chance to learn something new when they achieve something.

[Terry Gross]

Not too many years ago, maybe you could tell me the year because I don't really remember. You had major back surgery. I mean your back had basically given out because of all of the falls you've taken over the years. The impact of all the riding on horses and bull. And the doctors told you you'd never ride again. I think they would have been happy if you walked, but you ended up being able to walk and ride. However, I'm sure you're much more fragile than you were before. Your back problems. When you're working with a horse now, are you just a little more self protective of your own body than you were before? And is that affecting your technique with horses?

[Monty Roberts]

Yes, I am more protective now, more careful than I was when I was young. I think that's a kind of a natural evolution for most people. But for me it's a good deal more serious because I was in a wheelchair for a while and they didn't know whether I'd get out of that. And then I was on crutches for about a year and they didn't know whether I'd ever get off of some support system. And I'm just one accident away from the wheelchair, if you will. So I'm much more protective now and it does affect my work with horses not all that negatively because sometimes I just go that bit slower and maybe it's even more effective. And I'm teaching my young people now to, to go that bit slower and to give the horse a little more opportunity to get ready for things and to slowly come into things. I often say to my students, if you go at something with a horse as though you have all day to do, might take you about 15 minutes, but if you go at it like you have 15 minutes. It might take you all day. And it's truly a tortoise and hare situation in the real. I mean, that story of the tortoise and hare isn't very plausible, but this is a plausible story with the same techniques.

[Terry Gross]

Tell me about your favorite horse.

[Monty Roberts]

My favorite horse, Johnny Tibio, a horse that I won four Worlds Championships with, a horse that was abused as a as a young horse. I got him in a very sad state, but I knew his talents. I had seen him with an abusive trainer as a very young animal. And I was able to get him at 5 years of age, not all that old, you know. And he when he got trusting the human being, he turned his life around and became so productive it was unreal. And you just had to get out of his way to allow him to win championships. He was a cutting horse and rained cow horse. He was an extension of me. He was like a brother, like a very close brother would be. But I have a lot of favorites, and Song of Africa is rising quickly on the list.

[David Biancolli]

Monty Roberts speaking to Terry Gross in 1997. He died last week at age 91. His memoir is called the man who Listens to Horses, and the recent documentary about him is called the Cowboy and the Queen. Coming up, Martin Johnson reviews Jason Moran plays Duke Ellington. This is FRESH air.

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[David Biancolli]

this is FRESH AIR. The music of the great Duke Ellington has been a staple of jazz repertoire for decades. There even are big band competitions built around his formidable songbook. But lately, as much as Ellington is rightly revered, there are recordings coming out where artists both build on Duke's extraordinary music and find midway points between the legend and themselves. One of the best examples of this is from pianist Jason Moran, who does a solo rendition of mostly Ellington compositions on the Bandcamp only release. Jason Moran plays Duke Ellington Jazz critic Martin Johnson says the commonalities are as striking as the innovations sa.

[Martin Johnson]

The music of Duke Ellington is a cornerstone in jazz, but lately musicians are building unique structures with it. That's the Ellingtonian classic I Got It Bad and that Ain't Good from Jason Moran's solo presentation of Duke's music, and the difference is immediately apparent to jazz fans. It's denser, more rhythmically insistent. Essentially, it's as much Moran as it is Duke, which is Jason style. In the past 20 years, he's produced tributes to the music of Thelonious Monk, Fats Waller and James Reese Europe, not by presenting faithful renditions of their songs, but by showing the common ground he shares with these greats and by making the music a little more current. Ellington's music is often known for its regal elegance, but Moran values its grit, and he demonstrates this on Black and Tan Fantasy. Also, Ellington typically worked with an orchestra, and Moran seeks to communicate the depth and force that comes from having more than a dozen musicians on the bandstand. Moran thinks of the dream state of the Black and Tan Fantasy and dives deep into the lower register of the piano to communicate it with a rumble.

[Monty Roberts]

Sam Moran doesn't completely reject the elegance

[Martin Johnson]

of Ellington's music on Florette African, he lightens his typically heavy touch, and he allows the music to breathe more with an austere rendition. No survey of Ellington's work is complete without touching on Duke's frequent collaborator Billy Strayhorn. Moran includes Strayhorn's Lotus Blossom, and he uses the lighter approach, but he also references the way Ellington presented it on the album in His Mother Called Him Bill Duke's renowned tribute to his sidekick. There's a stately grandeur to Ellington's music that was especially well captured by his orchestra, but Moran nails it on the piano on Jeep's Blues while retaining his trademark rhythmic insistence.

[Terry Gross]

Sat.

[Martin Johnson]

The piece features a remarkable solo by Ellington's legendary alto saxophonist Johnny Hodges, and Moran seems to nod to it here. These days, musical tributes often feature originals that reflect on the meaning of meaning of the subject. Tyshawn Sori's tribute to Max Roach, Steve Lehman's ode to Anthony Braxton and Dave Douglas Gift's Ensemble Ellington Tribute are examples of this trend. Moran includes his original tune Means, which demonstrates the influence and fascination that Ellington has had on his own music.

[David Biancolli]

Jazz critic Martin Johnson writes for the Wall Street Journal and Downbeat. He reviewed Jason Moran plays Duke Ellington. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews Tony the new film bio of Anthony Bourdain. This is FRESH air.

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[David Biancolli]

This is FRESH AIR. Anthony Bourdain, who died by suicide in 2018, was an internationally known chef, writer and television star. The new movie Tony, starring Dominic Sessa, Leo Woodall and Antonio Banderas, follows the young Bourdain's discovery of the culinary world that would make him famous. Our critic at large, John Powers, says that this fast, funny, touching film is none of the things you fear it could be.

[John Powers]

A couple of decades ago, I lived for a year in Singapore. The question I was asked most often was, do you know Anthony Bourdain? He was an idol there, but not only there. Because his TV shows aired in almost every country, people everywhere knew him and saw him as an embodiment of what they liked about America. Bourdain was indisputably cool, with an aura of disreputable fun, but also generous and open to different cultures, genuinely worldly. He didn't treat other societies food as weird, but as delicious and rooted in things that matter. We see the blossoming of that openness in Tony, an amusing new movie based on a few pages from his breakthrough book, Kitchen Confidential. Taking a splinter of Bourdain's life the mid-1970s summer when he was 19, director Matt Johnson sidesteps the touch all the bases sludge of the biopic. Instead, Tony captures a few telling moments in the life of a winedark soul who was, as Homer said of Odysseus, the man of twists and turns. When we first meet Bourdain, played by lanky Dominic Sesse, he's an annoyingly brash, deeply insecure Vassar student, a would be writer. He's trying to BS a literary fellowship committee into funding a novel that's a dialogue between Jack Kerouac and George Orwell. He calls the book a bildungsroman, the German term for the literary genre that tracks a person's moral and emotional growth. Naturally, it's Tony's own growth we'll be watching. When the fellowship doesn't pan out, he heads off to a strangely un gay province town in hopes of romancing a fellow student, Nancy. That's Amelia Jones from Coda. But he soon finds himself broke and alone. He's rescued by a man known simply as Chef, played by Antonio Banderas, whose sly, sneaky, deep performance may well win him an Oscar. Chef lets him sleep on a hammock outside his house and when Tony lies that he knows about kitchens, hires him to work in the back of his bare bones seafood restaurant. Away from work, Tony falls under the sway of his co worker, Sal, played bethuggish panache by rising star Leo Woodle, who's the movie's exemplar of the bad boy chef Sal steals, beats people up, collects notches from the door frames of women he sleeps with and gives Tony cocaine in the kitchen. Tony's summer becomes a dialogue between the sociopathic Sal who pulls him toward the self destructive darkness that would eventually claim him, and the humane, almost saintly chef who helps him tap into the big heartedness that would make him beloved. Along the way, Tony finds a calling. He discovers his love of kitchen culture with its culinary rituals, jocular camaraderie, amphetamine rush, need to get the dishes out. An underlying sense that there's something hallowed in the communal act of eating here. On his first day at the restaurant, Tony pretends he knows how to cook and his co workers let him have it.

[Monty Roberts]

You know I can cook too.

[John Powers]

Excuse me?

[Monty Roberts]

Kid says he's a cook. Chef, yeah, wonderful. I'm not a cook.

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I'm a writer.

[Monty Roberts]

I said I could cook. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't understand that. Shut the up.

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My dad's like one of the best chefs in New Jersey.

[Monty Roberts]

Oh, your dad. Why didn't you say so? Whatever.

[John Powers]

As an origin story, Tony is a tad too neat, yet vastly better than you get in comic book movies whose heroes are transformed by bites from radioactive spiders. From the start, we realize that Tony's surface bravado has no weight. Groping to find his identity, he has the uncoolness of a kid pretending to be cool. This is nicely pulled off by Cessa, a terrific young actor whom you may know as Paul Giamatti's student sidekick in the Holdovers. It's a tricky role because Cessa must give us glimpses of the rock star Bourdain will become, while also showing he's not yet there. Johnson and his co writers Todd Bartels, Lou Howe and Matthew Miller do a nifty job of giving Bourdain's transformation an arresting shape, pulling us into a propulsive rhythm of recurring scenes. Tony working in the kitchen, chef waking Tony with water in the face. Sal acting psycho chef dragging the godless Tony to weekly mass. Of course, real life lacks the clean arc of a story. Bourdain himself was known for embroidering his tales, and Tony takes similar liberties in reality. He didn't go to Provincetown to win Nancy. He didn't go there alone. He didn't work at just one restaurant. He didn't have a boss as handsome as Antonio Banderas. There was no sow. And the actual Tony Bourdain was not the innocent the film makes him seem. No doubt the filmmakers would reply that while not literally true, Tony is emotionally true. Maybe so. In any case, the film is emotionally satisfying. Perhaps the highest praise I can offer is that it doesn't depend on Bourdain's fame to keep us interested. I would have enjoyed this movie even if its hero didn't have TV shows that play on every airline in the world.

[David Biancolli]

John Powers reviewed the new film Tony on Monday's show. Journalist Gil Duran he spent years following a small group of Silicon Valley billionaires and says they are at war with American democracy and winning. His new book is called the Nerd Reich. Hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram @NPRFreshAir. You can subscribe to our YouTube [e-mail] thisisfreshair. We're rolling out new videos with in studio guests, behind the scenes shorts and iconic interviews from the archive. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Julian Herzfeld and Adam Stanischewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Seiya Challoner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm David Biancold.

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