Roots of R&B: Johnny Otis & Etta James

Summary

Fresh Air: Roots of R&B – Johnny Otis & Etta James

Aired: August 27, 2025
Hosts: Terry Gross (Main Host), Tonya Mosley (Co-Host)
Guests: Johnny Otis (archival interview, 1989), Etta James (archival interview, 1994)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Fresh Air revisits two interviews from the archives to explore the roots of R&B through the intertwined stories of Johnny Otis—band leader, producer, and R&B pioneer—and Etta James, legendary singer he discovered as a teenager. The conversation highlights their roles in shaping early rhythm and blues, their experiences navigating the segregated music industry, and the enduring legacy of their music. The interviews span tales of artistic innovation, cultural identity, race, and personal resilience.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Johnny Otis’ Early Career and Legacy

[00:47–07:46]

• Otis’ beginnings as a big band leader with the 1945 hit "Harlem Nocturne."
• Recording "Harlem Nocturne":
  • Tight studio schedules led to the recording of what became his first big hit.
  • Otis slowed down a stock arrangement; it became unexpectedly popular, especially among chorus girls in the club.
  • Quote: “The ladies like it that well. So I said, let’s play that.” – Johnny Otis [04:33]
• Touring with major Black acts like Louis Jordan and the Ink Spots, and the racial dynamics of those tours.
• Audience assumptions and racial climate: Otis, a Greek American, was often assumed Black and could have faced arrest for otherwise playing in segregated venues.
  • Quote: “Had they suspected I was white, we would have been arrested.” – Johnny Otis [06:10]
• Encounters with overt Southern racism and dangers while on tour, including being threatened for breaking Jim Crow bathroom rules.
  • Quote: “A guy with a gun in my belly... any death but this.” – Johnny Otis [06:36]

2. Talent Scouting and Creating Stars

[11:09–13:54]

• Discovered singers like Esther Phillips (Little Esther), Jackie Wilson, Hank Ballard, Little Willie John, and Etta James through talent shows.
• Parents would bring children to Otis hoping he’d make them stars.
  • Quote: “If Junior has any real talent, you’ll tell us the truth... But they didn’t mean that.” – Johnny Otis [12:33]
• Otis developed diplomatic ways to let down less-talented hopefuls.

3. R&B to Rock & Roll: Musical Evolution and Audience Reaction

[13:05–16:11]

• Adapting from classic, bluesy R&B (preferred by Black audiences) to jump blues and boogie favored by white audiences as racial demographics of shows shifted.
• Writing "Willie and the Hand Jive" after being inspired by English hand-dancing trends observed by his manager:
  • Quote: “They would do a thing... in the big black bands... they call it Hand Jive. Why don’t you write a song called Hand Jive?” – Johnny Otis [15:16]
• The song became an international hit and popularized a distinct dance.

4. Personal Identity, Race, and Artistic Integrity

[17:19–20:37]

• Otis’ goatee airbrushed out of promo shots to look “less ethnic”—attempts to make him seem Anglo for broader appeal.
  • Quote: “He wanted me to look less black. He wanted me to look less like a Greek. He wanted me to look like a nice Anglo Saxon wasp.” – Johnny Otis [17:47]
• Growing up in a Black neighborhood, Otis didn’t initially identify himself as white.
  • Deeply immersed in African American culture, he resisted joining mainstream society because he found greater authenticity in the Black community.
  • Quote: “It wasn’t the music that brought me to the black community. It was the way of life. I felt I was black.” – Johnny Otis [19:18]
• Speaking out against the hypocrisy of American “democracy" that still practiced racism.

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Featured Songs & Notable Moments (Johnny Otis)

• "Harlem Nocturne" [03:22]
• "Double Crossing Blues" (feat. Little Esther) [09:11]
• "Willie and the Hand Jive" [14:16]
• "Can’t You Hear Me Calling?" [16:39]

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Etta James: Life, Music, and Legacy

1. Billie Holiday Tribute & Coming of Age

[23:28–25:42]

• Discussion of her album "Mystery Lady," a tribute to Billie Holiday.
  • As a youth, James resisted jazz, feeling it too “disciplined” and “bougie.”
  • Only after maturing did she come to embrace jazz’s emotional depths.

2. Early Life and Family

[25:42–28:11]

• Raised in a foster home; mother gave birth at 14 and placed James in a loving home.
  • Initially a gospel prodigy, singing in church choirs until age 12.
• Upon her grandmother’s death, mother retrieved her, and James became more rebellious after moving to San Francisco.

3. Transition from Gospel to R&B

[29:22–31:02]

• Her 1961 hit "Something’s Got a Hold on Me" was adapted from a gospel song, repurposed as an R&B classic.
  • Quote: “We wrote that song and we adapted it from a gospel song... it must be the Lord. In your song, it must be love.” – Etta James [29:22]

4. Discovery by Johnny Otis and Breakout Hit

[31:21–37:03]

• Recounts being discovered by Johnny Otis after one of her group’s friends boasted of their songwriting.
• Auditioned for Otis in a hotel room as a hesitant 15-year-old—performed pop standards for him.
• Faked her age and forged a letter for parental permission to tour and record.
  • Quote: “I went home, I wrote the note... myself and the two girls got on Johnny’s bus and we split to L.A.” – Etta James [35:34]
• Early hit, "Roll With Me Henry" (also called "Wallflower"), was banned for being too suggestive; Georgia Gibbs recorded a sanitized version for mainstream radio.
  • Quote: “You weren’t allowed to say roll because roll was like a vulgar... so rather than, they banned my record from the air.” – Etta James [37:12]

5. Stage Image and Personal Struggles

[39:35–41:55]

• Crafted her iconic look—platinum blonde hair and glamorous gowns—borrowing from Black and white movie stars.
• Stopped dyeing her hair during her battles with drug addiction and desire to keep a lower profile.

6. Addiction, Recovery, and Comeback

[41:55–44:19]

• Willingness to discuss her drug addiction and relapses; describes how rehab became a space to rediscover music, especially through peer appreciation and covers of her work by others (e.g., Rod Stewart's version of "I'd Rather Go Blind").
• Support from the Rolling Stones—Keith Richards wrote to her during rehab promising to include her on tour when she was ready, which they did in 1978.
  • Quote: “The letter said... what you’re doing right now is more important than what we could ever... do with you. But we’ll be sure to come back and get you.” – Etta James [44:25]

7. Artistic Maturity and Song Interpretation

[45:39–46:24]

• James reflects on how age and experience transformed her understanding and performance of classics like “How Deep Is the Ocean.”
  • Quote: “Now I really understand... I want to sing real stuff. I want to know what I’m singing about.” – Etta James [45:39]

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Featured Songs & Notable Moments (Etta James)

• "At Last" [23:03]
• "The Very Thought of You" [23:51]
• "Something’s Got a Hold on Me" [29:50]
• "Roll With Me Henry"/"Wallflower"/"Dance With Me Henry" [36:06]
• "How Deep Is the Ocean" [46:36]

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Memorable Quotes

• Johnny Otis:

  • “That was the open version of white racism as against the very subtle, pervasive and institutionalized version that we have today.” [07:23]
  • “It wasn’t the music that brought me to the black community. It was the way of life. I felt I was black.” [19:18]

• Etta James:

  • On her mother: “She really did the best for me. She put me in a lovely home. The people were lovely to me... She was just a child, what would she have done with me?” [25:49]
  • On artistic growth: “I wanted to look grown... I wanted to wear tall, high heeled shoes and fishtail gowns and big, long rhinestone earrings, you know.” [40:59]
  • On authenticity: “I want to sing real stuff. I want to know what I’m singing about.” [45:39]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:47] – Overview of Johnny Otis' career and impact
• [04:23] – Story behind recording “Harlem Nocturne”
• [06:07–07:46] – Racial climate and touring as a white bandleader with Black musicians
• [09:11] – Little Esther & making “Double Crossing Blues”
• [13:18] – R&B’s changing audiences; transition to rock & roll styles
• [14:16] – “Willie and the Hand Jive” inspiration & legacy
• [17:47] – Ethnicity, identity, and self-image in publicity
• [19:18] – Otis on feeling aligned with Black culture
• [23:03] – Etta James on “At Last” and Billie Holiday tribute
• [25:49] – Etta’s foster home & formative years
• [29:22] – “Something’s Got a Hold on Me” as gospel crossover
• [31:21] – How she met and auditioned for Johnny Otis
• [37:12] – “Roll With Me Henry” vs. “Dance With Me Henry”; censorship
• [39:35] – Stage image: platinum hair, inspiration from Joyce Bryant & Jayne Mansfield
• [41:55–44:25] – Recovery from addiction, Rolling Stones support
• [45:39] – Artistic maturity: singing with understanding

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Conclusion

This rich, engaging episode explores not just the music but also the personal and social history of foundational R&B. Through candid interviews, Johnny Otis and Etta James reflect on fame, artistry, struggle, and the enduring power of authentic expression in Black American music. Their stories illuminate the complexity of race, identity, and creativity in mid-20th-century America.

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For those seeking to understand the birth of R&B and the intertwined fates of two giants of the genre—this episode offers essential firsthand perspective and lively musical interludes.

Transcript

[Terry Gross]

This message comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet terms apply? See capitalone.com bank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC this is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we continue our archive series, R and B, rockabilly and early rock and roll. Before Elvis Presley recorded Hound Dog, it was recorded by Big Mama Thornton. The record's drummer and producer was Johnny Otis, whose interview we're featuring today.

[Etta James]

You ain't nothing but a hound been snooping around my door.

[Johnny Otis]

You ain't nothing but a hound.

[Etta James]

He's snooping around my door. You can wag your tail but I ain't gonna feed you no. You told me you was hot glad, but I can see through that.

[Johnny Otis]

Cause you told me you was hot.

[Etta James]

Glad that I could see through that. And daddy, I know you ain't no real cool cat. You ain't nothing but a hound dog. With snoop around the door. You just know how dark Quincy round my door. You can whack your tail, but I ain't gonna fit you no plenty.

[Johnny Otis]

Ah, there's nothing more hound dog.

[Terry Gross]

Otis was also an R and B singer and musician, a band leader, nightclub owner and talent scout. He started out leading a big band that had the 1945 hit Harlem Nocturne. Soon after, his band, like most of the big bands, broke up for financial reasons. Otis organized a smaller unit that played a hybrid of swing and blues that became known as rhythm and blues. Otis's Rhythm and Blues Caravan became the first R and B touring roadshow. Through his nightclub talent shows and roadshow, Otis discovered such singers as Esther Phillips, who first worked under the name Little Esther, Jackie Wilson, Hank Ballard, and Etta James, who we'll hear from later in the show. Otis had several R and B hits in the early 50s, and in 1958, his record Willie and the Hand Jive made it to the top 10 of the Rock and roll chart. Although Otis is a pioneer of R and B and played almost exclusively with black performers, he was a white Greek American who grew up in a black neighborhood where his father ran a grocery store. During the British invasion of the 60s, his style of music became decreasingly unpopular. Otis died in 2012 at the age of 90. When I spoke with him in 1989, he was back on the road and in the recording studio. His sessions from the 1950s had just been reissued. We began with his first hit, that 1945 instrumental recording of Harlem Nocturne.

[Etta James]

Sam.

[Terry Gross]

There's a great story behind recording this record. Would you tell it?

[Johnny Otis]

Well, this goes back to the mid-40s, and it was my first record date with my own band, as I recall. And we did three things. I went to the producer after we had completed the third one. I said, well, Mr. Renee, that's it. Three songs in four hours, and we got plenty of time left. He said, no, you've got that wrong. It's four songs in three hours. Now get out there and get another song together. So we were the house band at the Club Alabama on Central Avenue here in LA at the time. And I remember when we would play this particular song, the chorus girls and the showgirls would come out of the balcony, out of their dressing rooms and dance on the balcony. And they would always ask us to play it. And I thought it must have some charm. The ladies like it that well. So I said, let's play that. And it was a stock arrangement that had been recorded once before by Renoble and an Earl Hagan tune. So. But I slowed it down and I was a drummer then. I went boom, boom, boom on the Tom Toms. And we recorded it. And the songs that we had done previously with Jimmy Rushin, the great convese singer, and some wonderful arrangements, they didn't do it. But Harlem Nocturne became an instant hit.

[Terry Gross]

And when Harlem Nocturne became an instant hit, then you started touring with Lewis Jordan and with the Ink Spots. And they were some of the biggest black acts of the time. Can you describe a little bit what the atmosphere was like at the concert concerts in which you shared the bill?

[Johnny Otis]

That same feeling you feel today before the curtain opens, that great anticipation? They're going to see Bill Kenny in the Ink Spots, they're going to see Louis Jordan, and we were lucky enough to be the band.

[Terry Gross]

Did the audiences assume that you were black?

[Johnny Otis]

Of course. In those days, many of the places we played, had they suspected I was white, we would have been arrested.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I remember when I interviewed Solomon Burke, he told a story about how when one of his records crossed over to the country charts, he started getting invitations to play certain places in the south with white crowds who would have never asked him to play if they knew he was black. And he showed up to one of these places and it was quite a scene. Did anything similar ever happen to you?

[Johnny Otis]

No, we're talking now. I assume we're back in the 40s. If we are, it was much different than the Solomon Burke days of the 50s or the 60s. With Solomon Burke, you see Your life was on the line in those days when, when our bus would cross the Mason Dixon Line and the driver would say, well, we just crossed the Mason Dixon Line. A pall would fall over the entire show. We'd all get quiet because we knew we were down there where we had problems. And many times we came close to being hurt. One time we stopped the bus to go to get some gas and my little singer, Little Esther, who was only 13, jumped off and went to the, to the restroom. And I looked up and there's a guy with a gun in my belly and he's shaking and he's all excited because the little black girl went to the white woman's bathroom. And I thought to myself, any death but this? So she came out and we went on down the road. But those things happen to us all the time. That was the open version of white racism as against the very subtle, pervasive and institutionalized version that we have today.

[Terry Gross]

Let me play one of the rhythm and blues records from the period that you made. And this was with the singer Little Esther, who we now know as Esther Phillips. And this was Double Crossing Blues. Do you want to say anything about this? You write something?

[Johnny Otis]

Well, I can give you a little anecdote about it.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[Johnny Otis]

I was leaving my little chicken ranch in, in Watts back in the 40s. And with me were a group of guys I had found at the Barrel House, where I had a nightclub there called the Barrel House. And we were going to do their first record. And they became known as the Robins and later the Coasters. But Little Esther was a, was, was a neighborhood little girl who used to help me with the other children catch my chickens when people would pick out the chicken they wanted and then we would have refreshments later. And she ran up, she said, Johnny, let me go, let me go. So I said, oh, get in. So she got in. We to Hollywood, to the studio, and when we got there we did the Four Sides by the Robins. And we had a few minutes left. So I told, I asked the producer, Ralph Bass, I said, man, we got some time. Let me, let me get these kids together. I got a song I think would make sense. He said, well hurry up, you've only got a couple minutes. So we, I, I taught it to him and we did it and it was called Double Crossing Blues. And he said, I said can I do it one more time? Cuz she kind of giggled. He said no, that's it. But anyhow, that became the number one song of 1950. And it, and it brought little Esther to stardom. And it did an awful lot for us, too.

[Terry Gross]

And you're playing vibes?

[Johnny Otis]

Yeah, and I'm playing vibes.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, here we go.

[Etta James]

Been looking for you, Daddy.

[Johnny Otis]

I just found you in time.

[Etta James]

You with some other woman and you spread I swore that you were mine. Was the man of Daddy.

[Johnny Otis]

Don't my kisses satisfy? If I don't thrill you, baby?

[Etta James]

Goodness knows how I've tried. Folks say that you've been cheating.

[Terry Gross]

And how I see it's true.

[Johnny Otis]

While I can't quit you, baby.

[Etta James]

Cause I'm so in love with you. What's the matter, Daddy? If you would only tell me. Why your fire don't thrill you, baby? Goodness knows all I tried. You stayed out last night. Say you were playing cards. Can't understand it, baby Would make your big fatty so hard. I'm gonna leave.

[Terry Gross]

Johnny Otis is my guest. And by the way, he has a new album of some of his reissued recordings from the 1950s. It's called the Capital Years. We'll be hearing some of that in just a little while. You discovered a lot of talent. Not just a little. Esther. Esther Phillips. What was your way of scouting for people?

[Johnny Otis]

Actually, my first singer was Ernestine Anderson when she was just a little girl.

[Terry Gross]

Really?

[Johnny Otis]

Yeah. And then came Esther Phillips. But after Esther Phillips amazing success and became the big child star of the African American community nationally. Then everywhere we played, people, they would bring me, their sons and their daughters backstage. I guess they figured I was an expert who knew how to make stars out of kids. And that's how it started. One day in Detroit at the Paradise Theater, I asked the manager, I said, during this week that we'll be here, how about me doing a talent show to avoid having to have all these people coming around with their kids? He said, great. And we did. It was to have been one hour, but it stretched into two hours. And we found so many wonderful singers and players that day. I found Little Willie John, Jackie Wilson and Hank Ballard and the Midnighters on that particular show. And there were probably others. But the record company I was scouting for, King, only wanted to deal with three at the moment. And I thought years later, when Barry Gordy formed his Great Motown Story, I said, no wonder. Look at the reservoir of talent here in Detroit.

[Terry Gross]

It must have been funny, though, when the parents were bringing you their children. You must have been exposed to a lot of really untalented kids also.

[Johnny Otis]

Well, I learned quick. They would come and say. And they almost all had exactly. I don't care if I was In Mississippi or Massachusetts, they would say, Now, Mr. Otis, we know that you know, and if Junior has any real talent, you'll tell us the truth. And if he doesn't, of course. But they didn't mean that. I didn't know it. What they meant was, this is the world's answer to the great child star. This is it. And if I would dare to suggest they weren't, then I had an enemy on my hands. So I learned how to sidestep that and tell little fibs.

[Terry Gross]

We've been talking about rhythm and blues. When there was the transition between rhythm and blues and rock and roll, did you have to. Did you find yourself changing the music or were maybe the audiences changing that you were playing your music, too?

[Johnny Otis]

Yeah, that's true. When I was dealing with the classic rhythm and blues that we developed back in the 40s, we did a lot of bluesy material because the black audience demanded it. As the transition occurred, we then had to play more animated jump blues boogie styles and act put on an act for white folks because they wanted it to be. They wanted to see us, you know, work and sweat, and that's what they liked. The early black audiences wanted a more musical, bluesy, jazz thing. The white audiences wanted that jump tune, boogie woogie kind of thing.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I want to play a song that you had that was a hit on the rock and roll charts in 1958. And this is Willie and the Hand Jive. Let's play it and then we'll talk about.

[Etta James]

I know a cat named Wayhard Willie he got a cool little chick named.

[Johnny Otis]

Rockin Billy.

[Etta James]

He can walk and stroll it through the Cube and do that crazy hand jive too.

[Johnny Otis]

Papa told Willy.

[Terry Gross]

You'Ll ruin my home.

[Johnny Otis]

You and that.

[Etta James]

Hand jive has got to go Willie said, papa, don't put me down.

[Johnny Otis]

They'Re.

[Etta James]

Doing that hand jive all over town Hand jive, hand jive, hand jive Doing.

[Johnny Otis]

That crazy hand jive.

[Terry Gross]

Mama, Mama looking up for Joe that's Hand Drive, which was a big hit for my guest, Johnny otis, back in 1958. Tell me about writing the song.

[Johnny Otis]

My. My manager, the late Hal Zeiger, and partner back at that time, we had a hit in 57 called Ma, he's Making Eyes At Me with the great Marie Adams singing. And it became a hit not here in the States, but in. In Europe. In England, it was number one. So he went over to set up the tour and when he got back, he said, listen, I. I saw something interesting. I saw the young people around the London area In the venues where they couldn't dance, at the concerts and the theaters, as they sat there, they would do a thing that you guys in the big black bands used to do with their hands, you know, while the band was playing, and they call it Hand jive. Why don't you write a song called Hand Jive and maybe we'll do some good over in Europe? Well, I did, and luckily it became a hit everywhere.

[Terry Gross]

So the hand jive was basically kind of clapping and moving your hands.

[Johnny Otis]

Yeah. While you're sitting.

[Terry Gross]

While you're sitting.

[Johnny Otis]

But it became a whole dance later.

[Terry Gross]

I want to play something that you're featured on from this new reissue called the Capital Years. And this is Can't. Can't you hear me calling?

[Johnny Otis]

Okay.

[Terry Gross]

And you're singing on this.

[Johnny Otis]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

And what do you.

[Johnny Otis]

After? After a fashion.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, you sound really good on it.

[Johnny Otis]

Oh, well, okay. You and my mother think so.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, well, let's give it a listen.

[Johnny Otis]

Can't you hear me calling?

[Etta James]

Baby, baby, baby, baby, please don't go Baby, please don't go Baby, don't you.

[Terry Gross]

Know I love, I love, I love.

[Etta James]

I love you so I love you so now you got me all alone Alone in blue and I'm sitting here crying over you can't you hear me calling? Baby, please don't go can't you hear me calling? I, I, I, I, I can't go on I can't go on and now you know you got me crying I'm crying, I'm crying I'm all alone I'm all alone Come on, baby, won't you.

[Terry Gross]

Tell me that you're coming home?

[Etta James]

Don't leave me crying here all alone.

[Johnny Otis]

Can'T you hear me calling?

[Etta James]

Baby, baby, please don't go don't go.

[Terry Gross]

In the morning, Johnny Otis from the new album the Capital Years. You know, Ben Vaughan wrote the liner notes for this record, and in it he mentions that in one of. I guess it was a publicity shot that your goatee was airbrushed out so that you would look less ethnic. What was the story behind that?

[Johnny Otis]

Oh, Hal Zeiger. The late Hal Zeiger, God rest his soul. He. He was my partner at the time, and he did these things without even asking me. And while he, you know, he wanted me to look less black. He wanted me to look less like a Greek. He wanted me to look like a nice Anglo Saxon wasp, which is hard to do, but he tried.

[Terry Gross]

So he airbrushed out the goatee.

[Johnny Otis]

Yeah, I don't think that sold any records.

[Terry Gross]

Now, your family is Greek. Was Greek.

[Johnny Otis]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Your parents?

[Johnny Otis]

Yeah, yeah, we're in our. Yes.

[Terry Gross]

And your last name was Veliotis.

[Johnny Otis]

Veli. Otis.

[Terry Gross]

And when did you change it to Otis?

[Johnny Otis]

The kids at school kind of made that decision for me. They decided not to deal with try to remember how to pronounce that. They would say Johnny Otis, and that's the way it stuck.

[Terry Gross]

So I know that your father had a grocery store. Was that in the same neighborhood that you lived in?

[Johnny Otis]

Oh, yes. The grocery store was downstairs and we lived upstairs.

[Terry Gross]

And this was in a black neighborhood?

[Johnny Otis]

Yes, in the heart of the black neighborhood.

[Terry Gross]

So that, I guess, helps explain why you grew up with such a.

[Johnny Otis]

And that's also the luckiest thing that ever happened to me.

[Terry Gross]

Uh huh.

[Johnny Otis]

So he might in fact have put it in a WASP neighborhood. Then what would have happened to me?

[Terry Gross]

Did you not think of yourself as being white when you were growing up?

[Johnny Otis]

I didn't think about that at all. I had no concept about that. Luckily, my father was absolutely wonderful in that respect. And my playmates were. I didn't know it then, but they were black, African American. I thought we were all the same thing. And I don't think it's so unique in America for white kids to grow up with black youngsters and come up together as brothers and sisters. What might be unique is not to veer away. I could not veer away because that's where I wanted to be. Those were my friends. That's what I loved. It wasn't the music that brought me to the black community. It was the way of life. I felt I was black.

[Terry Gross]

What was it about the way of life?

[Johnny Otis]

Everything about it. You know, different cultures have different characteristics and the characteristics of the African American community became my own. And I just wasn't willing to give that up to go become part of the mainstream community where people felt superior to black people and they oppressed black people and they. They practiced democracy and preached racism. I didn't want to be part of that. I want to stay in that sweet, beautiful black place in the black community.

[Terry Gross]

My interview with Johnny Otis was recorded in 1989. He died in 2012 at the age of 90. After we take a short break, we'll hear from one of the singers he discovered, Etta James. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH air. This message comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.combank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC. This message comes from Ollie. Back to school season can take a lot out of parents. Ollie is dedicated to helping you prioritize your wellness with solutions that fit seamlessly into your routine, like Women's Multi and Probiotic Mango for your immune system and Ollie's Sleep Gummies for nighttime rest when occasional sleeplessness occurs. Shop these products and [e-mail] or retailers nationwide. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. If you're a robot, this might not be the show for you. But if you're a human with hopes, dreams and bills to pay, the Life Kit Podcast might be just what you need. Three times a week, Life Kit brings you a fresh set of solutions to help you tackle topics big and small, from how to save money on groceries to how to bring the house down at karaoke. You know, human stuff. Listen to the Life Kit Podcast from npr. Presentado por me Marielle Segarra. Let's continue our archive series, R and B, rockabilly and early rock and roll with rhythm and blues singer Etta James. She got her start at the age of 15 when she was discovered by Johnny Otis, who we just heard from, and began performing with this traveling R and B Review. By age 17, she had her first hit, roll With Me Henry, an answer song to Hank Ballard's Work With Me Annie. After establishing herself as a rhythm and blues star in the late 50s and early 60s, her career was eclipsed by changes in pop music. But later she was inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame and the Blues hall of Fame. Younger generations became aware of her for her recording of At Last. After Beyonce sang that song at President Obama's first inaugural while he and Michelle Obama had their first dance as president and first lady.

[Etta James]

My love has come.

[Terry Gross]

Along.

[Etta James]

My lonely days are over and.

[Johnny Otis]

Life is like a song.

[Etta James]

Oh, yeah, yeah, at last.

[Terry Gross]

When I spoke with etta James in 1994, she had just released an album called Mystery lady, paying tribute to jazz singer Billie Holiday. The album featured James doing songs Holiday had recorded, like this one, the very thought of you.

[Etta James]

The very thought of.

[Terry Gross]

You.

[Etta James]

And I forget to do the little ordinary things that everyone ought to do. I'm living in a kind of daydream I'm happy as a queen but foolish though it may seem to me that everything.

[Terry Gross]

Etta James, welcome to FRESH air. Tell me the story of why you wanted to record a Billie Holiday record.

[Etta James]

Well, I thought that since I grew up and I did my Teenage years in San Francisco. And my mother was such a Billie Holiday and jazz fan, mostly Billie Holiday. And I kind of, all along I said, what jazz? You know. So to me as a young kid, that was like, it was too disciplined, it was too confining. At least that's the way I thought. And I thought you had to be really, really cool and had to be bougie and be bourgeois, you know, to do that. And I didn't want to do that. I mean, I was a sloppy kid with tattoos all over. I wanted to be just wild. I really think that I had to mature. I got to the point where I'm 56 years old. I think it took me maturing.

[Terry Gross]

Now, let me ask you this. You grew up in a foster home. I think when your mother had you, she was 14 years old, right?

[Etta James]

She was a kid. And, you know, I had feelings about all that kind of stuff for years, and I went to therapy and all about it. But then as I got older, I realized that she really, she really did the best for me. She put me in a lovely home. The people were lovely to me. They never said that they were my real parents. I mean, I always knew I had this good looking, high stepping mom, and she was only 14 years older than me. So she did the best for me because if she had tried to take me with her, she was just a child, what would she have done with me? Would I have been singing today? Would I have been anything?

[Terry Gross]

What was your foster family like?

[Etta James]

They were lovely. They were older people and they had property and they lived in the east side, Lower east side of Los Angeles. And my grandmother was a church lady and they believed in, you know, they gave me singing lessons at five. And so, you know, so when you.

[Terry Gross]

When you were singing in the church choir, did your grandmother or anyone else in the family get upset if on your own time you sang blues or any kind of secular music?

[Etta James]

No, because as long as my grandmother lived until I was. My grandmother died when I was 12, so I sang gospel music from 5 until 12. And so my grandmother, she wasn't one of those kind of people because I was already the prodigy child of the church and I did nothing. But I love church, Bible camp, and I was a little Christian girl. And until my grandmother passed away at 12, that is when my mother came back, came to get me because I had nothing but my grandfather there in the house. And my mother wanted me to be with her. And she came the day of the funeral to pick me up, to take me back to San Francisco. So that's at San Francisco. I was listening to little stuff on the slide, but I wasn't interested in secular music. But once I got to San Francisco, I like I grew horns and a tail. I really turned into, you know, the real street kid. I was kind of like a runaway, but I had a mother, you know what I mean? And I had a place to stay.

[Terry Gross]

We're listening to my 1994 interview with singer Etta James. We'll hear more of it after a break. This is FRESH air.

[Etta James]

Life is a mystery for those of.

[Terry Gross]

Faith or no faith.

[Etta James]

Ye Gods with Scott Carter is the.

[Terry Gross]

Podcast that makes sense of how we make sense of life.

[Johnny Otis]

Each week we talk to celebr scholars and mere mortals to unearth what on earth we believe and what we don't.

[Terry Gross]

Listen to.

[Etta James]

Ye Gods with Scott Carter, part of the NPR Network. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Terry Gross]

Pop culture Happy hour NPR's easy, breezy.

[Etta James]

Laid back pop culture podcast has brought.

[Terry Gross]

You the best in culture for the past 15 years.

[Etta James]

That means we spent the last 15.

[Terry Gross]

Years talking about what exactly?

[Etta James]

Bad reality TV actually good.

[Terry Gross]

Marvel Movies?

[Johnny Otis]

Actually awful.

[Etta James]

Marvel Movies reboots pop music, prestige dramas, Netflix sloth.

[Terry Gross]

That's 15 years of buzzy pop culture chitchat. And here's to many more. With you along for the ride, listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. You know what I'd like to do? I'd like to play one of your rhythm and blues recordings that has a very gospel sound to it. I want to play Something that's Got a Hold on me from 1961. Do you think of this as having a gospel sound?

[Etta James]

Matter of fact, it is a gospel song. We wrote that song and we adapted it from a gospel song. And the gospel song was Something's Got a Hold On Me, It Must be the Lord.

[Terry Gross]

And in your song, it must be love.

[Etta James]

It must be love, Right. Right now don't get me because I'm not the one who decided to. But I was one of the writers. I just kind of said, okay, well, let's go rock and roll.

[Terry Gross]

This is Etta James, recorded in 1961.

[Etta James]

Oh, sometimes I get a good feeling, yeah, yeah, I get a feeling that I never, never, never, never had before, no, no, yeah. I just want to tell you right.

[Terry Gross]

Now that.

[Etta James]

I believe, I really do believe that something's got a hold on me. Yeah, something's got a hold on me right now, child, I must feel love. Let me tell you now I've got a feeling I feel so strange Everything about it seems to have changed step by step I got a brand new walk I even sound sweeter when I talk I said oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh it must be love well.

[Terry Gross]

It wasn't too long after you moved in with your mother that you actually went on the road. I mean, Johnny Otis, who had a now famous rhythm and blues touring revue, got you into the show. He discovered you. But how did you audition for him? How did you find him or he find you?

[Etta James]

Well, kind of, yeah, I think it was kind of a little bit of both really. But he really found me because at that time my mother, I had ran away from home and I went and I stayed with, with two girls, one named Abby and Jean, who later became the Peaches. You know, it used to be Etta James and the Peaches. And we had wrote an answer to the song Work With Me, Annie, the.

[Terry Gross]

Hank Ballard record, right?

[Etta James]

So during those days, you know, everybody would make an answer. You said, work with me, Annie. Then we said, roll with me, Henry. And so one night, the young girl and myself, we were the same age, I think we were both like 16, and the older sister was like 24. And she went out to a dance in the Fillmore district, which was a heavy drag district of San Francisco. She went to see the Johnny Otis band. And she was there because we couldn't go and we didn't want to go anyway. We were different from her. She was kind of like a groupie, kind of a chick. And we were kind of scared to do that. So all of a sudden we got a that night and it was Abby calling us back to say, listen, guess who I'm with? I'm with Johnny Otis. And we go, oh, Johnny Otis. And he said, yeah, Johnny Otis. I told him, I told him that we have a girl group. And he says he wants to hear us. And I said, yeah, right, how does he want to hear us? We're out there in the project in the boonies, right? And she says, oh, he's at the hotel there and all the band and everything. And we looked, myself and the girl, we looked at each other and said, yeah, right now we're 15 year olds and we're gonna go to the hotel with the band and Johnny Otis. Johnny Otis was like about a 34, 35 year old man. So we said, oh no, that's all right, that's all right, we'll just, we'll cool that and everything. So Johnny Otis snatched the phone from her and it was Johnny Otis. You know, we Heard that voice, you know. And he said, hi, how you doing? And we said, oh, we're doing all right. He says, I heard. I hear you guys got a great group. I hear you got a song, a couple of songs, and I'd like to hear you. And he says, how about catching a cab? I'll pay the cab fare and I'll meet you out front. And I said, oh, no, now, this is getting heavy. This older man is gonna, you know, take us in a. Send us in a cab. So we said, okay, let's go on, John. He sounded pretty sincere, and he said, don't worry, nobody's gonna bother. He says, okay. So we got up and got dressed, got in the cab and went down there. Sure enough, as we pulled up, we saw this tall man. You know, we'd all seen pictures of Johnny Otis with the nice hair. And he looked like. He looked like a tall. Kind of like a Creole man with a nice mustache and a beard. And he had, you know, and the nice pompadour hair. And he was standing there all stately. And he had two or three more guys with him. One guy was his manager, wasn't much older man. And when we got. He said, oh, I'm glad to see you, and come on up and let's see what. Let's hear you. So we went upstairs to his room and we sang How Deep Is the Ocean and For All We Know, and Street of Dreams.

[Terry Gross]

So you auditioned for Johnny Otis. He liked your singing, I suppose, and invited you to go on the tour, but you were still a minor. Did he have to get your mother's permission?

[Etta James]

Well, that was a trick there. My mother. I knew my mother wasn't gonna let me go, but I told him. He says, how old are you? I said, 18, which he knew that was a lie. And he says, well, you know what? I would like to take you guys to Los Angeles tomorrow to make a record. And he says, can I speak with your mother? I said, no, I can't find her right now. She's working. And he says, well, can you go home and get permission from your mother? Get something in writing stating that you can travel and give me your mother's address and phone number and all this stuff, and saying that you can travel and you're allowed to travel with me and have her to sign it and date it. I said, oh, yeah, I can do that. So sure enough, that's what I did. I went home, I wrote the note.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, I see. Right. I see.

[Etta James]

And I brought the note back with a tiny little bag, little plastic bag or something with some clothes in it. And myself and the two girls got on Johnny's bus and we split to la.

[Terry Gross]

So why don't we hear the first song that you recorded and this was the first thing you recorded after going on the road with Johnny Otis. And it's Roll With Me Henry, also.

[Etta James]

Called Wallflower and called Dance With Me Henry.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, called Dance With Me Henry also. And this is Etta James.

[Etta James]

Hey, baby, what do I have to do to make you love me, too? Got to roll with me Henry all right, baby, roll with me Roll me, baby roll with me any old time Roll with me Henry Won't change my mind Roll with me Henry all right, you better run it while I'm running it is on roll on roll on roll on While the cats are falling you better stop your stalling it's intermission in a minute so you better get.

[Johnny Otis]

With it.

[Etta James]

Roll with the hand Red you better roll while the rolling is on roll.

[Terry Gross]

Now after you recorded this, Georgia Gibbs did a cover recording of this called Dance With Me Henry. And was that supposed to be the tamer version?

[Etta James]

Yeah. Well, you know, during those days, you weren't allowed to say roll because roll was like a vulgar, vulgar word. You know what I mean? Yeah. Think about it. They would probably burn Prince at the stake, but you couldn't say role. So rather than they banned my record from the air and what happened? What we had to do was sell it underground. And not only that, change the title to Wallflower. And then when Georgia Gibbs did it, she just made the Dance With Me Henry so that, you know, all the kids could go buy it and take it home and listen to it because their parents weren't gonna go for no roar. Are you kidding? Roll with me. How do you roll with somebody?

[Terry Gross]

We're listening to my 1994 interview with singer Etta James. We'll continue the interview after a break. This is FRESH air. Short Wave thinks of science as an invisible force showing up in your everyday life, powering the food you eat, the medicine you use, the tech in your pocket. Science is approachable because it's already part of your life. Come explore these connections on the Short Wave podcast from There's a lot of news happening. You want to understand it better, but let's be honest, you don't want it to be your entire life either. Well, that's sort of like our show here and now. Anytime, every weekday on our podcast, we talk to people all over the country about everything from political analysis to climate resilience. Video games. We even talk about dumpster diving on this show. Check out here and now Anytime. A daily podcast from NPR and wbur. Do you ever look at political headlines and go, huh? Well, that's exactly why the NPR Politics Podcast exists. We're experts not just on politics, but in making politics make sense. Every episode, we decode everything that happened in Washington and help you figure out what it all means. Give politics a chance with the NPR Politics Podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts. At some point in your career, you started dressing in evening gowns for performances and dyeing your hair blonde. Tell me how you created that on stage image for yourself.

[Etta James]

I think probably by me being so young and I was oversized like I am now. But I mean, I had a real nice figure and I was tall. And I remember this singer, Joyce Bryant, she was a black singer, and I always admired her. And I had two role models. I liked Joyce Bryant because she wore fishtail gowns, sequined fishtail gowns, and she was black and she had the nerve to wear platinum hair. And then I also loved Jane Mansfield because Jayne Mansfield had the blonde hair and had the poochie lips and the mole and all this. So I think what I did was kind of combined. My mother had bleached my hair carrot red at one point, and then I said, well, maybe that's not flamboyant enough. So I just kind of went into Detroit one day and one of the fellows over there said, oh, Ms. James, why, you would probably look fabulous with platinum hair. So he bleached my hair blonde and it looked good. So then I started. What I was doing was trying to be a glamour girl because I had been a tomboy most of the time. And I wanted to look grown, you know, I wanted to wear tall, high heeled shoes and fishtail gowns and big, long rhinestone earrings, you know.

[Terry Gross]

So how long did you dye your hair for?

[Etta James]

How long? Yeah, I think. Well, most of my career it was blonde. Platinum blonde all the way. I would think up into the 70s, maybe the 72, 73, something like that.

[Terry Gross]

And why'd you stop?

[Etta James]

Well, you know, I wanted to. I think, I think one thing about it, I think things had changed. I know things had changed and my career wasn't happening. And I didn't think that I needed to be that, you know, that to attract that much attention. Another thing, I was on drugs at that time and I think I really wanted a low profile.

[Terry Gross]

Was it difficult for you to give up drugs?

[Etta James]

Not when I got down to, you know, I Had given it up many a time. You know, I'd kicked my habits many a time. But when I went In 1974, I gave heroin up. I was on methadone for maybe three or four years before that. So I had a couple of things to give up.

[Terry Gross]

Was it hard to make a comeback after you stopped using?

[Etta James]

No, not really. Because when I stopped using, you know, I wasn't the kind that went around and wanted people to pat me on the back about it. It's just that I just picked up, you know, picked up the ball and started running with it. The thing was, when I went to this rehabilitation center, I was around nothing but a lot of white kids. And the thing where they were all younger than I was. And I remember on Saturdays, they would play all these great rock and roll records. The thing was, I was doing R and B, remember, But the ZZ Tops and the Rod Stewarts and the Rolling Stones and all those people, I never really. I was busy using drugs. I wasn't there when Woodstock. I was there in New York when Woodstock was going on. But I didn't want to go to Woodstock. I would rather go to Harlem, you know. And when I was in the program on Saturdays, we'd be cleaning up, they would be playing songs from all these people. And I would say, oh, man, that music is really happening. And then what really made me think it is, because my song, I'd Rather Go Blind, they had a version of it by Rod Stewart. And they kept saying, hey, this is the song you wrote. Listen. And I said, all right. And then. So while I was in that program, they would take me out kind of with support to kind of do little gigs here and there. We went to Africa to do the Black festival there. When Muhammad Ali and George Foreman were supposed to fight, we went to the American Song Festival. And so my therapist, you know, psychologist, was taking me around, trying to just, you know, dip me in a little bit to let me know, you know, this is the business here that you've been in all your life. Now, what's going to be different about this? When you come out, what are you going to do different? Because you're going to get thrown right back in there. So we would just do test runs and things.

[Terry Gross]

In 1978, you opened in some cities for the Rolling Stones on their tour. Were the Stones fans of yours?

[Etta James]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Matter of fact, when I was in rehab at the same rehab center in the 70s, 74 and 75, I got a letter from Keith Richards that had told. That had said to me that they were getting ready to do a tour. You know, they had had Tina Turner and they had had BB King, and they had different people on their tour, and they had wanted me on their tour. And the letter that they wrote came to the rehabilitation center, and the therapist got the letter, and he called me to his office and read the letter, and the letter said that they. He said, we would like to have you on tour with us. We love your music. And he says, but what you're doing right now is more important than what we could ever, ever do with you. But we'll be sure to come back and get you when you're ready. And that was really cool. That was when they came back in 78 and kept their word.

[Terry Gross]

I'd like to close our interview with another selection from your new album of songs that were recorded by Billie Holiday. I thought we could play How Deep Is the Ocean, since this is one of the songs you sang many years ago when you auditioned for Johnny Otis. What do you think is the difference between what the song means to you now and what it meant to you then and how you sing it now and how you sung it then?

[Etta James]

I think probably it's because now I really understand, you know what I mean? I understand what I'm singing about, you know, songs that I get. Any song that I decide to sing or a song that someone sends to me or recommends, I like to be able to relate to that song, not just have a song there that talks about, come fly me to the moon, Let me dangle on the stars. That's not my cup of tea. That's not real. I want to sing real stuff. I want to know what I'm singing about, and I want to be able to really relate to that. And I think that's what I can do now. I think that's what I definitely. Matter of fact, I know I do.

[Terry Gross]

Etta James, it's been a pleasure. I want to thank you a lot for talking with us.

[Etta James]

Thank you so much, Terry.

[Terry Gross]

My interview with Etta James was recorded in 1994.

[Etta James]

How much do I love you? I'll tell you no L. How deep is the ocean? How high is the sky? How many times a day do I think of you? And how many roses are sprinkled with dew Ooh how far would I travel to be where you are? How far is the journey from here to a star? And if I ever lost you how much would I cry? Ah, how deep is the ocean, baby how high is the sky?

[Terry Gross]

Tomorrow, as we continue Our archive series, R&B, Rockabilly and early rock and roll. We'll feature interviews with two R and B singers from the 50s and 60s, Ruth Brown, whose recordings include Mama, He Treats yous Daughter Mean and Laverne Baker, whose hits included Bumblebee, Tweedalee Dee and Jim Dandy. I hope you'll join us. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan. Our digital media producer is Molly Sivi Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.

[Etta James]

How far would I travel to be where you are? How far is the journey from here to a star.

[Terry Gross]

On the next dew line? From NPR, the man who saw a dangerous omission in the U.S. constitution and took it upon himself to fix it.

[Johnny Otis]

If something happened to a president who was still alive, the consequences for the country would have been enormous.

[Terry Gross]

The 25th Amendment. Listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. NPR's Wildcard podcast is all about embracing the unexpected. Like when Harrison Ford stopped by. My phone just rang. Jay Leno is calling you right now.

[Johnny Otis]

About my toilet seat. Yeah, Jay's printing a 3D printed toilet seat for me.

[Etta James]

What?

[Terry Gross]

Listen to NPR's Wild Card wherever you get your podcasts or watch it on YouTube.