Fresh Air: Roots of Rock and R&B – Dion and Allen Toussaint

Aired: September 1, 2025
Host: Terry Gross
Featuring: Dion (interview from 2000), Allen Toussaint (interview from 1988)

Episode Overview

This episode of Fresh Air revisits archival interviews to explore the deep roots and cultural impact of rock and R&B through the lives and music of Dion and Allen Toussaint. The episode seeks to challenge dismissive views of Dion as a “teen idol” by revealing the blues and country influences in his work and highlighting his artistry through retrospective performance and storytelling. It then shifts to the behind-the-scenes genius of New Orleans’ Allen Toussaint, whose work as a songwriter, pianist, and producer shaped the sound of early rock and roll, R&B, and funk. Throughout, the conversation is expertly guided by Terry Gross, mixing personal anecdotes, live performances, and insightful questions.

Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. Dion: Beyond the Teen Idol (00:16 – 20:02)

Finding Musical Maturity (03:10 – 04:34)

• Question: How Dion finds new, adult material after his early fame with "teenage" songs.
  • Dion frames songwriting as diary-keeping, seeing emotional continuity from “A Teenager in Love” to his current work.
  • Quote: “Songs to me have always been kind of like a diary... Even though it's a very simple song and it seems like kind of claptrap or something, but it's not… it had a lot of heart, it had a lot of soul.” (Dion, 03:35)
• He describes the origins of the signature vocal arrangements in songs like “I Wonder Why” as street-corner imitations of Apollo Theater horn sections.

Early Musical Influences: Blues, Country, and the Bronx (05:18 – 12:56)

• Dion recounts the influence of Hank Williams, emphasizing Williams’ commitment and how country music shaped his worldview as a Bronx native.
  • Quote: “Hank Williams seemed, like, so total to me, so committed to the lyric. He would actually rip the ends of the words off.” (Dion, 05:33)
• Dion’s transition from country to R&B/Blues came via neighborhood mentor Willie Green, who exposed him to artists like John Lee Hooker and Sonny Boy Williamson.
• He describes Doo Wop as the authentic Bronx interpretation of black music, advised by Green to “write about the people in the neighborhood.”

The Stories Behind the Songs (09:31 – 12:56)

• Dion reveals the real-life inspirations behind hits like “The Wanderer,” relating the song’s subject to an enigmatic Navy man from his block:
  • Quote: “The Wanderer is a sad song… it's about a guy who just is stuck in a very kind of shallow lifestyle.” (Dion, 11:02)

From Child Performer to Hitmaker (12:02 – 13:24)

• At age 11, Dion was a neighborhood attraction, performing up to 70 Hank Williams songs—though, as he jokes, “I had no idea what jambalaya meant, but it sounded so good and felt so good coming out of my mouth.” (Dion, 12:17)

Performance: "I Wonder Why" (13:50 – 15:03)

• Dion and the Belmonts’ debut single is played, displaying their “attitude” and signature harmonies.

New Songs and Reflections on Tragedy (15:03 – 19:50)

• Dion introduces "Every Day That I’m With You," written for a (never-completed) biopic and inspired by his real-life friendship with Buddy Holly.
  • He recalls the “Winter Dance Party” tour and narrowly avoiding the fatal plane crash that killed Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, and The Big Bopper:
    • Quote: “My mind hadn’t stretched out to that place where I could spend a whole month’s rent on a 45-minute plane flight... so I said, no. So [Buddy] gives me his guitar… so now I’m wondering, I wonder how his guitar sounds compared to mine…” (Dion, 16:55)
• The storytelling weaves nostalgia, survivor’s guilt, and a songwriter’s craft.

Performance: "Every Day That I’m With You" (20:02 – 20:37)

• A full-bodied, bluesy performance expressing reflection and loss.

2. Allen Toussaint: The Genius Behind New Orleans R&B (22:11 – 39:09)

Origin Story & First Hit: "Mother-In-Law" (23:23 – 25:22)

• Toussaint recounts writing "Mother-In-Law" at age 21 as a response to a national joke, though he himself was not married:
  • Quote: “Mother-in-law was a national joke... The mother-in-laws themselves weren’t natural jokes, but most comedians used to use that.” (Toussaint, 25:28)
• Performs the song solo at the piano, emphasizing his witty, understated vocal style.

Songwriting Beginnings and Influences (25:46 – 27:38)

• Toussaint describes starting as a copycat, saturated with radio hits and piano styles.
• Major influences include Fats Domino and, especially, Professor Longhair.
  • Quote: “Professor Longhair... has been the strongest influence on my playing and even some of my writing... it was off the beaten path.” (Toussaint, 26:19 & 27:42)

Filling in for Fats Domino (28:03 – 30:03)

• Shares story of impersonating Fats Domino on a recording session due to his ability to mimic other players.
  • Quote: “Dave Bartholomew, who knew that I could play like most of the folk... called me in to play on a Fats Domino recording session. And I went in and did.” (Toussaint, 29:27)

Regional Pronunciation and New Orleans Heritage (30:19 – 30:27)

• A lighthearted digression on how New Orleans families often have various pronunciations for their names.

Performance: "Lipstick Traces" (32:09 – 34:46)

• Toussaint plays “Lipstick Traces,” recounting how it was written for Benny Spellman, who sought a feature similar to his famed “Mother-in-Law” bass part.

Performance: “Working in a Coal Mine” (35:51 – 37:19)

• Toussaint reveals he had never been in, nor even known anyone who’d been in, a coal mine; the inspiration simply fit Lee Dorsey’s unique vocal character.
  • Quote: “Not only [had I] never been, I don’t know anyone who's ever been in a coal mine. And I don't know why that came.” (Toussaint, 35:13)

Performance: “It’s Raining” for Irma Thomas (37:47 – 39:03)

• Toussaint recalls writing “It’s Raining” while watching the rain in studio with Irma Thomas present—demonstrating his ability for spontaneous, heartfelt songwriting.

3. Art Pepper Tribute & Jazz Reflections (40:44 – 49:00)

• Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead marks the 100th anniversary of Art Pepper’s birth, chronicling his fraught but brilliant career, stylistic individuality, addiction, imprisonment, comeback, and late creative triumphs.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Dion on authenticity in songwriting (09:31):
  “Willie Green… told me, he said, Dion, he said, write about the people in the neighborhood. Write about the things you know.”

• Dion on “The Wanderer” (11:02):
  “The Wanderer is a sad song… It’s about a guy who just is stuck in a very kind of shallow lifestyle.”

• Dion on musical absorption (12:17):
  “If you’re an Italian from the Bronx… I had no idea what jambalaya meant, but it sounded so good and felt so good coming out of my mouth.”

• Allen Toussaint on New Orleans influences (26:19):
  “Professor Longhair… has been the strongest influence on my playing and even some of my writing… He didn’t seem related to anyone else who was out there at the time.”

• Toussaint on writing “Working in a Coal Mine” (35:13):
  “Not only never been [in a coal mine], I don’t know anyone… and I don’t know why that came.”

Important Timestamps

| Segment/Topic | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------------|-----------------| | Terry Gross introduces Dion and archive themes | 00:16 | | Dion on finding new material as he ages | 02:59 – 04:34 | | Dion on Hank Williams, country, and blues influences | 05:18 – 07:22 | | Doo Wop and Bronx authenticity | 09:04 – 12:02 | | Performance: "I Wonder Why" | 13:50 – 15:03 | | Story of “The Wanderer” & its real inspiration | 09:31 – 11:02 | | Buddy Holly plane crash story, “Deja Nu” songs | 15:37 – 19:50 | | Performance: “Every Day That I’m With You” | 20:02 – 20:37 | | Transition to Allen Toussaint segment | 22:11 | | Toussaint plays “Mother-In-Law” | 23:51 – 25:22 | | Prof. Longhair’s influence, New Orleans piano style | 26:19 – 27:38 | | Story: filling in for Fats Domino | 28:03 – 30:03 | | Toussaint performs "Lipstick Traces" | 32:09 – 34:46 | | Story & performance: “Working in a Coal Mine” | 35:51 – 37:19 | | Story & performance: “It’s Raining” | 37:47 – 39:03 | | Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead on Art Pepper | 40:44 – 49:00 |

Conclusion

This rich retrospective mixes interview, live performance, and personal archive to chart the evolution of rock and R&B from the inside out. Dion’s music emerges as both deeply personal diary and living history—linked by the streetwise Doo Wop of the Bronx and the ghosts of Buddy Holly. Allen Toussaint’s segment is a luminous, often wry testament to the invention and open-heartedness of New Orleans music, with stories and songs that bring the city’s magic to life. The episode is both a primer and celebration—making the roots of this music vivid and relevant for new listeners and long-time fans alike.