‘Sinners’ Songwriter Raphael Saadiq

Summary

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Fresh Air – 'Sinners' Songwriter Raphael Saadiq

Host: Tonya Mosley (with David Bianculli)
Guest: Raphael Saadiq
Date: February 13, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Fresh Air spotlights Grammy-winning musician, songwriter, and producer Raphael Saadiq, whose recent Oscar-nominated song “I Lied to You,” co-written with Ludwig Göransson for the film Six Sinners, serves as an emotional centerpiece of the movie. Saadiq discusses his upbringing in Oakland, gospel roots, journey through the music industry, collaborations with major artists including Beyoncé, and the creative ethos he brings to his work. The conversation is rich in reflections on musical risk, legacy, and the importance of collaboration.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Finding His Voice and Early Influences

• Church Roots and First Performances

  • Saadiq recounts the origin of his musical confidence at Union Baptist Church in Oakland, California, where he performed as a child.

    “I found my voice probably at Union Baptist, this church on 71st Avenue in Oakland, California…” (01:58)

  • Reluctant to be a “front guy,” Saadiq was more comfortable as a bass player or in a supporting role, only taking the lead after encouragement from bandmates and producers.

    “It was never in the plan for me to be a front guy… I just wanted to play bass for people who sing really good.” (03:38)

• Influence of Older Generations and Bass

  • Deep affinity for retro soul and R&B sounds; credits Isaac Hayes for teaching him there is “no such thing as old school.”

    “The late, great Isaac Hayes told me, there's no such thing of old school. It's either you've been to school or you didn't.” (05:04)

  • Saadiq’s fascination with the bass stemmed from its powerful presence in Motown classics—especially the work of James Jamerson.

The Origin and Meaning of “I Lied to You” (Six Sinners)

• Genesis of the Song

  • Director Ryan Coogler (an Oakland native like Saadiq) approached him to write for Six Sinners.

    “Ryan Coogler… called me and told me about it and told me what he was thinking about, gave me a synopsis of the film. And it was about blues and right up my alley… I just started playing the guitar lick and I just wrote the lyrics right there.” (06:39)

  • The song, performed by Miles Canton, is pivotal in the movie, channeling deep gospel-blues resonance.

• Lyrical Depth

  • On the line, “They say the truth hurts, so I lied to you”:

    “That's a little mischievous boy line… I thought it would always be a great blues song to take that big voice of Miles…” (08:18)

  • The context in the film involves a son hiding his love of secular music from his preacher father—mirroring Saadiq’s own conflicts between gospel roots and broader musical ambitions.

Composer and Producer Creative Process

• Love of Scoring and Soundtracks

  • Saadiq mentions his habit of muting movie soundtracks to score scenes in his own style, a technique that feeds his enthusiasm for film music.

    “If I'm watching a movie, I'll just turn the volume completely down and I'll start scoring.” (09:38)

  • Example from his own career: writing “Keep Marching,” inspired by a film sequence but ultimately retained for his solo album, where it became a heavily licensed track.

• Collaborating with Beyoncé on ‘Cowboy Carter’

  • Describes working on “16 Carriages” and “Bodyguard”—highlighting both Beyoncé’s relentless work ethic and the spirit of collective creativity in the studio.

    “…the good time is you're around a lot of great people, a lot of great thinkers… That's how Quincy Jones would do it… And that's why music suffers to me now, you're not making a phone call so everything sounds the same. You're not giving different energy, different spirits…” (12:11)

  • The accidental demo for “Bodyguard” became Beyoncé’s choice for her album after she insisted on hearing more.

• Solos and Musical Risk-Taking

  • The extended guitar solo at the conclusion of “Bodyguard” is rare, inspired by Beyoncé’s vision and Saadiq’s willingness to fill in, despite wanting to recruit blues guitarist Eric Gales.

    “She wanted a solo. B wanted a solo and I did a solo. And she was like, can we make it longer? You never hear that from an artist in 2025…” (15:05)

Philosophy of Creativity & Taking Risks

• Dare to Suck

  • Saadiq's approach encourages artistic courage: being willing to fail (“dare to suck”) fosters creative originality.

    “If you're playing music, you have to be, you have to dare to suck. And a lot of people don't do that… When you run into people that do, you have to know, like, I'm gonna try myself. I'm gonna try to not be different. I'm gonna try to do something that I like first and second.” (17:00)

  • This ethos comes both from music and acting classes—pushing past comfort zones and learning by doing.

• Lessons from Acting Applied to Music

  • Acting classes encouraged Saadiq to be vulnerable and take risks on stage, which now informs his stage persona, especially in solo shows.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Musical Legacy:
  “The feeling of music doesn’t change. So you want to get the feeling from way, way back, and you want to take that feeling and inject it to something new.” — Raphael Saadiq (05:13)

• On Collaboration:
  “You got to be able to make… that black book, to call the right musicians. And that's why music suffers, to me now… You need different personalities. It's not about you. It's about everybody else. And that's what made great records.” (12:43)

• On Artistic Courage:
  “If you’re playing music, you have to dare to suck. And a lot of people don’t… But when you run into people that do, you have to know, like, I'm gonna try myself.” (17:00)

• On Being Forced to Take the Stage:
  “I didn't like being a front guy. I didn't want to be a front guy at all… My dream would have been… to play for the Stones… and just be gone.” (03:38)

• On Writing “I Lied to You”:
  “Well, that's a little mischievous boy line… I’ve always had that in my head, that concept of a song.” (08:18)

• On Risk and Choices:
  “Music is about taking chances—taking risks lasting longer than your teacher or your executives or labels…” (16:50)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:49] – Saadiq describes his first performance and early musical path
• [03:38] – Reluctance to be a group's frontman; dreams of playing bass for others
• [04:48] – Influence of older generations; Isaac Hayes’ wisdom
• [05:35] – Early bass inspirations (Motown and James Jamerson)
• [06:39] – Story behind “I Lied to You” and connection with Six Sinners
• [08:18] – Meaning behind “They say the truth hurts, so I lied to you”
• [09:38] – Saadiq’s process scoring to silent films and inspiration behind “Keep Marching”
• [11:41] – Working in the studio with Beyoncé on Cowboy Carter
• [13:22] – How “Bodyguard” wound up on Beyoncé’s album
• [15:05] – Extended guitar solo on “Bodyguard” and unique collaboration
• [16:50] – On risky artistic choices and collaborating with Solange and Beyoncé
• [18:05] – The “dare to suck” philosophy and lessons from acting applied to music
• [19:37] – Carrying lessons from acting classes into music performance

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Tone

• Warm, thoughtful, and deeply reflective.
• Saadiq is honest, conversational, sprinkled with anecdotes and gentle humor.
• Host Tonya Mosley is insightful, respectfully probing, and brings out stories behind the music.

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This episode gives listeners a nuanced look at Raphael Saadiq’s artistry, his reverence for musical tradition, and his continual journey to innovate and inspire by staying true to feeling, collaboration, and creative bravery.

Transcript

[NPR Announcer]

This message comes From NPR sponsor FX's Love Story, John F. Kennedy, Jr. And Carolyn Bessette. It explores the iconic couple whose fairytale romance would become a national obsession. Watch now on fx, Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers.

[David Biancolli]

This is FRESH air. I'm David Biancooley. Rafael Sadiq is a Grammy Award winning singer, songwriter, multi instrumentalist and producer.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Something I've been wanting to tell you for a long time. It might hurt you. Hope you don't lose your mind. Well, I was just a boy about 8 years old. You threw me a Bible on that Mississippi road. See, I love your papa. You did all you could do. And they say the truth hurts. So I lied to you.

[David Biancolli]

The song I lied to you, which he co wrote with Ludwig Goranson for the film Six Sinners, is nominated for an Oscar for best original Song. It's a gospel blues ballad inspired by his own church roots and gospel upbringing and recurs throughout the film. At the start of his career, Sadiq toured with Prince, playing bass in Sheila E's backup band. Then with his brother and cousin, he formed the R B band Tony, Tony, Tony, and followed that with his R and B supergroup Lucy Pearl. He's had numerous solo albums and singles. Rafael Sadiq also has built a career writing and collaborating with some of the biggest names in music, including Whitney Houston, Beyonce, Stevie Wonder, Solange d', Angelo, Earth Wind and Fire, and Erykah Badu. Tanya Mosley spoke with Rafael Siddiq last summer.

[Tonya Mosley]

You all are so well known in Oakland because that's where you then grew up. When did you find your voice? When did you know that you could sing?

[Rafael Sadiq]

I found my voice probably at Union Baptist, this church on 71st Avenue in Oakland, California. I was asked to sing a song with all the tiny tots, had to sing a song on Easter Sunday. And this lady named call her Sister Nation, she was the pastor's wife. She handed me a piece of paper and said, you're singing this song on Sunday. We got a chance to rehearse it one time and then on Sunday you'll sing it.

[Tonya Mosley]

How old were you?

[Rafael Sadiq]

I don't know. Seven?

[David Biancolli]

Yeah.

[Justin Chang]

Yeah.

[Rafael Sadiq]

And I was singing a song and people started responding when I was singing the song was embarrassing that the words. It was his gospel song. It was like, you know, if I was naked without bread or meat and my friends was like in the audience crying, laughing. But when I sang it at church, people responded like, oh, go. And I heard it, but it more or less made me more nervous, you know, because they Kept responding like I was doing a good job. And then I didn't do it anymore. I didn't do it anymore until I played in some local bands and I was playing cover songs. I would sing this song by Mr. Mr. Called Broken Wings. I sang that, like, in the 12th grade, playing bass and singing. I'd sing the single Life by Cameo. Those were the next songs I sang. And then pretty much, I didn't like being a front guy. I didn't want to be a front guy.

[Tonya Mosley]

You didn't?

[Rafael Sadiq]

No. I was playing in a band where there was two other lead singers, and I would. Those are the two songs that I sang in the band. And when the Tony started, ended up singing Lil Walter. And the producers, Danny and Tommy, thought that I should sing more songs. And that's how I became a front guy.

[Tonya Mosley]

So it wasn't always in the plan for you to be a front guy?

[Rafael Sadiq]

Oh, never. I don't. I don't want to be a front guy. I didn't want to be a front guy at all. I wanted to play bass for people who sing really good and maybe be on a big tour. I mean, my dream would have been, like, early in my career to play for the Stones, you know, and just be gone. You know, play for some big group that does stadiums and just be gone.

[Tonya Mosley]

Which you. You actually had a chance to do that. Mick Jagger asked you to play with them on the Grammys in 2011.

[David Biancolli]

Yeah.

[Rafael Sadiq]

See, Solomon Burke's. He had passed away and they recorded one of his big songs. And I think his family, Solomon Burke's family called Mick, they're really good friends and asked him what he performed for their dad on the Grammys. And Mick thought to call me to assist him. And that was so cool because we got a chance to rehearse and play blues. He loves Harlem Wolf and Buddy Guy, Aubrey King. And he's a blues guy. So it was like the younger blues guy meeting another guy who was inspired by black people's music.

[Tonya Mosley]

You've always gravitated to music of previous generations. You're like an old soul, like, in modern packaging. What is it about that older music that you feel like is just always. You've tapped into it has a feeling.

[Rafael Sadiq]

It has a feeling. And the late, great Isaac Hayes told me, there's no such thing of old school. It's either you've been to school or you didn't.

[Tonya Mosley]

Right.

[Rafael Sadiq]

I was schooled Music. The feeling of music doesn't change. So you want to get the feeling from way, way back, and you want to take that feeling and inject it to something new. I didn't know that I was doing that. It's just something that I got turned out on when I was a kid. You know, it's whatever you get turned out by when you're young and is what you end up being, you know.

[Tonya Mosley]

What do you love about the bass in particular?

[Rafael Sadiq]

Bass made me feel big. I was so little, you know, probably 99 pounds when I was that age. Bass has had this big sound. I heard it on Motown Records like Pride and Joy by Marvin Gaye. And I didn't know what I was hearing. And later on, I would find out I was listening to one of the greatest bass players of all times. All times.

[NPR Announcer]

Who was it?

[Rafael Sadiq]

James Jamerson. Mm mm.

[Tonya Mosley]

I want to ask you about a project that you just got done completing that we've all experienced. Sinners. What a movie. And you co wrote the film's signature song, I Lied to youo with Ludwig Goranson. It's performed by Miles Canton. He's got like this deep, resonant voice that feels like it's come from another time. He's so young, but he's got like this really rich voice. And that song that you co wrote, it really serves as this emotional centerpiece for the film. It's a pivotal moment. First off, I want to know, how did that opportunity come your way?

[Rafael Sadiq]

Well, Ryan Coogler is from Oakland. I'm a huge fan of, you know, of the person that guy is. And then when this opportunity came, he called me and told me about it and told me what he was thinking about, gave me a synopsis of the film. And it was about blues and right up my alley. You know, it's my background too. And they were about to leave the New Orleans to shoot it, and they gave me the story. And I'm thinking, when do you want it done? And they was like, can we do it now? So I just started playing the guitar lick and I just wrote the lyrics right there.

[Tonya Mosley]

Let's listen to a little bit of it.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Something I've been wanting to tell you for a long time. It might hurt you. Hope you don't lose your mind Well, I was just a boy about 8 years old. You threw me a bible on that Mississippi road See, I love you, papa, you did all you could do and they say the truth hurts So I lied to you Yes, I lied to you I look good.

[Tonya Mosley]

That was the song I Lied to youo from the movie Sinners, which my guest today, Raphael Sadiq Co wrote. Tell me about that line, they say the truth hurts, so I Lied to youo. You wrote that, right?

[Rafael Sadiq]

Yeah, I did, yeah.

[Tonya Mosley]

Yeah, tell me about that line.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Well, that's a little mischievous boy line. You know, I should think about if you lied to your girlfriend and it's like you like. Well, they say the truth hurts, so I lied to you. I didn't want to hurt you, so I just lied. I've always had that in my head, that concept of a song.

[Tonya Mosley]

Why? Why do you think?

[Rafael Sadiq]

Yeah, because I thought it would always be a great blues song to take that big voice of Miles. Yeah, Miles sounds like he's 60, right? I know he should. Young dude, like 19 or something.

[Tonya Mosley]

Right.

[Rafael Sadiq]

So once Ryan told me about the movie, sort of change the words around from what I thought I could say. Because now I'm thinking about a pastor, a father. Right.

[Tonya Mosley]

Because in the storyline it is Miles talking to his father who's a pastor. Right.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Not telling the truth about his music. He loves his dad, but he loves music. Doesn't want to hurt his dad. To say, I want to go play in this club because I still love the Lord, I still love church, but that I gotta go, maybe I'll make it back.

[Tonya Mosley]

Is it true? I heard this, I don't know if it's true, but that you love soundtracks and scoring. Like, you'll be at home watching a movie or a show and then just start for yourself to think about a soundtrack or a song that be like the score.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Yeah, if I'm watching a movie, I'll just turn the volume completely down and I'll start scoring. Like start seeing what I would do versus what they're doing. That's how I kind of learned.

[Tonya Mosley]

Wait, can you give me some examples when you've done that?

[Rafael Sadiq]

So there's a. There's a movie. It's about this. This kid who played football in Syracuse and Jim Brown was his mentor. And they had an Elvis Presley song in it at first. And they wanted this montage to happen when this kid is traveling from the east coast to the south. And when he reaches the south, there's all these black kids on the side with signs with his name. Because in the south, back in the day, you could run the football all the way to the five yard line, but you couldn't punch it in for a touchdown if you're black.

[Tonya Mosley]

I didn't know that.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Right. So not in the South.

[Tonya Mosley]

Yeah.

[Rafael Sadiq]

So the black kids were like chanting him on. They wanted him to run through and make a touchdown. So I had to turn that down and Write a song over the top of that. And that was a song called Keep Marching that was on the record. This is called the Way I see it, my 60s album. And instead of me giving the song to the film, I kept it. It's the biggest licensed song I ever had. Well, there's nothing you can do? Well, there's nothing you can say? Cause everything just ain't gonna go your way? If you're feeling kind of strange? And you wanna lay it down and it's hard? Keep your feet on solid ground? You better keep on. Keep watching? Oh, keep watching on. You just gotta keep on. Oh, yeah. Keep marching, Keep marching on.

[Tonya Mosley]

I wanna talk to you just a little bit about your process in writing songs for other people, too. Beyonce's album Cowboy Carter, won best Country Album and Album of the Year at the Grammys. And you produced and wrote two of the songs, 16 carriages and bodyguard. Congratulations.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Thank you. You know, working with Ms. Beyonce is. I know what hard work is, and I respect people that work hard. You know, you don't even have to be around them to know. You could just look at the production amount of work they put into a show or when they come out with music or whatever. But being in the room and working with people, you really get to see, like, how hard they work.

[Tonya Mosley]

I've heard you say you don't remember the experience, but one thing you do remember is that you guys had a lot of fun.

[Rafael Sadiq]

The good time is you're around a lot of great people, a lot of great thinkers. Everybody's a thinker in the room. It's sort of like I was at my studio for a lot of it on my own, but sometime I went to the studio where it was like five or six rooms and different people working in different studios, and you can go grab, you know, the dream out of a room, which is an amazing songwriter, producer. Any musician is on call. I would just dream up, like, call this guy, call this guy. And that's. That's how Quincy Jones would do it. You got to be able to make. Have that book, that black book, to call the right musicians. And that's why music suffers. To me now, you're not making a phone call so everything sound the same. You're not giving different energy, different spirits, different personalities. On music, you need different personalities. It's not about you. It's about everybody else. And then you. That's what made great records, and that's what the fun thing about Beyonce's record was.

[Tonya Mosley]

This particular song, Bodyguard, though, you presented that to Beyonce, but that Wasn't necessarily the song she can choose. And she chose that of yours.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Yeah, that song. I was going through my Dropbox and I was playing songs in a room with her. She was in a room. Jay Z was in the room. Jay and a few. Some of the staff. And I was looking for song. I don't think the. I don't think the phone was even hooked up to the speakers. And I played and I stopped it real quick because that's not the song I wanted to play. And I didn't think it was something she even like. But she caught it in like two seconds. She goes, what? What's that? And I'm going, oh, that's just this idea that I had. And I played it and she like. She's like, what are you doing with it? And that's how it got on the record.

[Tonya Mosley]

I want to play a little bit of Bodyguard. And it actually is at the point where there's like this solo guitar. Let's listen.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Almighty God.

[Tonya Mosley]

That was Beyonce singing her award winning song, Bodyguard, written by my guest today, Raphael Sadiq. That guitar at the end, that was also not planned. Right, That's. Is that you?

[Rafael Sadiq]

Yeah, that's me. Yeah. She wanted a solo. B wanted a solo and I did a solo. And she was like, can we make it longer? You never hear that from an artist in 2025 playing a guitar solo. They want it longer. But she knows her audience and she knows that is rare. And she's. I think we could do that. We can, we can. We can have a 16 bar solo on this record. So that was a little bit of pressure to go back in there and play like a 16 bar solo. Yeah. Because I would have called my boy. I would have called Eric Gills, who is Eric Gales. Eric Gales is one of the most amazing guitar players in the world today. He's from Memphis Delta Blues. He was the guy just playing. He played a lot of guitar and centers. But I would have called him to play, but he was on tour, so I had to play it and it came out good.

[Tonya Mosley]

I love how I had to play it.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Had to play it. I like spreading. I like spreading it around.

[Tonya Mosley]

Yeah, I think that, like something about that, about Beyonce choosing that song where you mistakenly played it, but then you're like, oh. And she says, no, what is that? I've heard you say both she and Solange, because you wrote Cranes in the sky for a seat at the Table, her album, that they make choices like that. It's sort of like the mark of a great musician. Is to go outside the box, the places that aren't safe. It just made me very interested to know more about how you write these songs. Many times they're for yourself, and then many years later, you might present them to an artist like Beyonce or Solange. You can tell about just how brave they are and how far they're gonna go with it based on the choices they make on your selection.

[NPR Announcer]

Yeah.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Yeah, definitely. I don't know. I guess it's in the water. In Houston, that family, both of them are, like, really particular about what they like as far as design, style, you know, staging, and, you know, what you can pull off. And it's not a lot of artists that take those chances. They take chances, and music is about taking chances, taking risks lasting longer than your teacher or your executives or labels or anything like that. You know, for me, it's like, what chance are you going to take if you're. If you. If you're playing music, you have to be. You have to dare to suck. And a lot of people don't. Don't do that. I don't. I don't fault people that don't do that. But when you run into people that do, you have to know, like, I'm gonna try myself. I'm gonna try to not be different. I'm gonna try to do something that I like first and second. Secondly, I hope it's the audience that likes it also. But first, I have to like it.

[Tonya Mosley]

Have you always been like that for yourself as an artist? Dare to suck.

[Rafael Sadiq]

I've always been like that. I didn't know what I was doing, so I had to find the words later on through different people, you know, Dare to suck came from this acting coach that I was working with one time, and she's like, you gotta dare to suck. And I'm like, wow, that's a. That's pretty good. Because I did suck at acting. So it was like. So that's a good point. I just took that and ran with that. Then I realized in music, I did that a lot because, you know, you're not. You're not always going to be good acting. Well, I took acting class because it wasn't for acting. It was for stage. I just wanted to get a little bit past myself, you know, I didn't want to be always thinking I was this artist, Rafael Sadiq. It's like, no, I wanted to get out that shell and just, you know, walk in a room with people where I wasn't good and where we have these different drills that we do that I was going to be pretty embarrassed to do them in front of people or read a monologue. And, and there was better people in the class, you know, way better than me. That was killing it. And I had to stand up in front of this class. I was like, wow, they're like, we have like five minutes to learn this piece and you gotta read it in front of people. They're gonna film you and then the class is gonna watch it back and critique you. That was the worst thing I ever heard in my life. And I did it. You know, I did suck, but I did it.

[Tonya Mosley]

You know, Is there a particular lesson from that that stuck with you that you use on stage now as just a part of your act?

[Rafael Sadiq]

What I learned from it is, you know, you have to and you know, take it all in. Especially it really came to to be a great part for my one man show because just it's just me and I have to walk out to an audience where I'm not, you know, you don't hear drumroll in the beginning. It's just me. I open it up, I say something to the audience and they're used to me coming out, you know. You know, it's not that. This is something else. And so I think, you know, I really like good acting. I'm a huge fan of like Mos Def, Jeffrey Wright, Mr. Cheadle, Don Cheadle Don, who takes that craft really serious.

[Tonya Mosley]

So like you do with music.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Like I do with music.

[David Biancolli]

Rafael Sadiq spoke with Tonya Mosley last summer. I Lied to you, the song he co wrote for the movie Sinners, is nominated for an Oscar as best original song. After a break, we remember jazz clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Paplowski who died last week. I'm David Biancooli and this is FRESH AIR.

[NPR Announcer]

This message comes from NPR sponsor FX's love story, John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bassett. The new limited series from executive producer Ryan Murphy. It explores the complex courtship of the iconic couple considered to be American royalty whose love story captured the attention of the nation. Their fairy tale romance would unfold in front of the public eye and become a national obsession. FX's love story John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette. Watch now on FX, Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. This message comes from Carvana who makes car selling easy. Enter your license plate or vin, get a real offer in minutes and have your car picked up from your door. Sell your car the easy way with Carvana. Pickup fee may apply. This message comes from Betterment you know when you sell a stock or any investing asset and start to feel the dread of getting a surprise tax bill? Betterment's Tax Impact Preview tool shows you the estimated tax impact of the sale so you can make informed tax smart investing decisions. Get started [e-mail] investing involves risk performance, not guaranteed. Betterment is not a tax advisor, nor should any information herein be considered tax advice. Please consult a qualified tax professional.

[David Biancolli]

Ken Paplowski, the clarinetist and tenor saxophonist whose career spanned from the Benny Goodman Orchestra to decades of his own recordings and appearances, died last week. He was 66 years old, and he died aboard a jazz cruise ship in the Gulf of Mexico in the hours between a morning lecture and a scheduled afternoon concert. Today we remember Ken Palowski. BBC jazz critic Russell Davies called Paplowski arguably the greatest living jazz clarinetist. Jazz pianist Emmett Cohen described him as a brilliant musician, a pioneer of the clarinet and a gentle Soul. Born in 1959, Paplowski started playing clarinet professionally in Ohio at age 10 as part of a family polka band started by his father, a policeman. He joined the Tommy dorsey Orchestra in 1980, then switched from clarinet to tenor sax to play with the Benny Goodman Orchestra in 1984. After Goodman's death two years later, Ken Paplowski embarked on a solo career, focusing more on clarinet, working with a wide range of artists and recording more than 400 albums. He worked with Charlie Bird, Rosemary Clooney, Mel Torme and Leon Redbone. When Terry Gross spoke with ken Paplowski in 1999, he had just released a CD featuring songs and arrangements associated with his old band, the Benny Goodman Orchestra. The CD was titled Last Swing of the Century. The CD opens with the song Goodman often used to open his concerts, Let's d.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Sam.

[Terry Gross]

Ken Paplowski, welcome to FRESH air.

[Ken Paplowski]

Thank you. Nice to be here.

[Terry Gross]

Well, you actually played with Benny Goodman in the last part of Goodman's life. How old were each of you at the time?

[Ken Paplowski]

This was about 1986, and I would have been 26 at the time. And Benny was around 80 years old. And I was frightened to death, frankly, working with him because I'd heard all these these stories about him, and most of them weren't weren't very good stories. I mean, he was he was known as kind of a terror on the bandstand, very tough bandleader. I saw a little bit of that, but I saw mostly a guy who was so obsessed with music that that took up about 98% of his life. And that was probably the the sole cause of a lot of a lot of the complexities of his personality.

[Terry Gross]

Did you play clarinet or tenor?

[Ken Paplowski]

No, I played tenor. And, you know, there's a little bit of clarinet doubling. But I gave him some tapes that I'd done playing clarinets, and I guess that was the basis of him telling these people that they should record me. But he never said anything to me about my clarinet playing except, you know, you sound good or, you know, those kind of things. But the first audition, he auditioned Loren Schoenberg's band, his big band, because he wanted to take a big band back out on the road. So he came to a rehearsal session we had, and an hour went by and he didn't show up. So we we just started playing some charts and I was playing the clarinet parts, and we're in the middle of an arrangement and I've got my eyes closed and playing a solo, and I could actually feel the band change and kind of tense up. And without even knowing that he was in the room, I knew he was there. And then, of course, everybody completely fell apart. But, you know, he wound up hiring the whole band.

[Terry Gross]

What's your attitude toward playing repertory music? Do you try to keep it true to the original recording or use the original arrangement or recording as a jumping off point?

[Ken Paplowski]

Actually, I take kind of a different attitude. I don't want anybody to recreate solos to try to play specifically in the style of the old records. I may be alone in this because there's this big whole movement of everybody trying to sound like the old records. But to me, the way to keep the music alive is play it in your own fashion and show the audience that you love this music, but do it in your own way. Otherwise you're treating the music like a dead music and treating it like a museum piece. And I don't want a concert to turn into a history lesson. I want the people to know that it's still alive. So all we did was use these arrangements as a jumping off point for us, and this is our way of playing these charts.

[David Biancolli]

Ken Paplowski, speaking to Terry Gross in 1999. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

[Justin Chang]

It is hard to get a house getting that down payment together.

[Terry Gross]

Brutal.

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You shipped off to Djibouti to afford a down payment for a house?

[Ken Paplowski]

Yes, sir, 100% on Planet Money.

[Justin Chang]

The high price of housing, what the Trump administration is trying to do about.

[Ken Paplowski]

It and will it work?

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Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tonya Mosley]

What allows Olympic figure skaters to land a jump on ice that most of US couldn't land on solid ground. And how do snowboarders defy gravity?

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Bad Bunny gave one of the greatest super bowl halftime performances of all time. We'll tell you why and what this performance means at this particular political moment. Listen to a recap on Pop Culture Happy Hour via the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Terry Gross]

Were you exposed to Benny Goodman records from your father's collection when you were growing up?

[Ken Paplowski]

Yeah, my father was an amateur musician. He was very surprisingly open musically because he was a very conservative guy otherwise. But we all in the family listened to everything from Benny Goodman to the Beatles to classical music to polka music, which was my first professional job. And it all kind of goes in and goes into the computer there. And so it was nice. And I still like to listen to all kinds of music, and I wind up playing mostly jazz, but I welcome some changes once in a while. But yeah, Benny was a big early influence.

[Terry Gross]

How did you end up playing clarinet?

[Ken Paplowski]

It's a funny thing. He My father brought home a trumpet, tried to play it, gave it up in frustration, gave it to my brother. He became a trumpet player. He next brought home a clarinet, tried it, gave it up, gave it to me. I got stuck with a clarinet, and I actually loved it almost from the beginning. And I always make a joke out of this and I tell people I'm very lucky. And this is true, because the next instrument he brought home was the accordion.

[Terry Gross]

Did he play that himself?

[Ken Paplowski]

Yes, he did. You can get the letters from the accordion players.

[Terry Gross]

So you started playing clarinet. Your brother was playing trumpet, and then you played in polka bands together when you were kids?

[Ken Paplowski]

Yeah, we had a Polish polka band called the Harmony Kings, and I was, I think, around 10 and he was around 12, and we were like this little kid's novelty act around Cleveland, Ohio, and we used to go on the local TV and radio shows. There was a TV show called Polka Varieties, and if you ever remember the Essie TV show with the Schmingy Brothers. It was so close to this show, it's frightening, but it's like learning how to swim by being thrown into the water. That's how I learned how to play. There we were having to play these long weddings and learn a lot of old standards in addition to the polkas. And the clarinet's function in that music is to improvise. So I kind of learned just by doing it on the job.

[Terry Gross]

Now, imagine, playing clarinet excluded you from playing in a lot of rock and roll bands.

[Ken Paplowski]

Yeah, although we did do our version of Proud Mary with accordion and drums and clarinet. That was a killer with the audience. But, yeah, it did exclude me from that. But I took up saxophone a few years ago after the clarinet, because of that, actually, because it fit in more with rock music and with more of the old standards. So I did my share of different kinds of jobs around Cleveland when I was coming up.

[Terry Gross]

Ken Poplaski, you've studied classical music. And before we talk about studying classical music, I want to feature you playing a classical piece. So let's listen to something from your cd, the Other Portrait. And this features you with the Bulgarian National Symphony. We'll hear you playing the first movement of Dance Preludes by the composer Vito Lodislavski.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Sam.

[Terry Gross]

Clarinet is Ken Paplowski from his cd the Other Portrait. Ken, did you study classical music because you planned on playing classical music, or did you do it just for help with your technique?

[Ken Paplowski]

A little bit of both. I had a great teacher early on in Cleveland, a man named Al Blaser, who really impressed upon me the need to learn a lot of the classical approach to playing and how it would help everything I did. And it does. It helps with the breathing, with the phrasing, with the articulation of notes. And I always admired. Even the jazz players I admired had that classical side to them. Benny did, Jimmy Hamilton from the Duke Ellington Orchestra, Buster Bailey, people like that. So I started studying all of that, the supposed legit stuff. And because I was studying that, I decided to go on into college and go for a degree on the clarinet with the classical thing, even though I knew, I always knew, I would just play jazz. But I mainly went to college just to keep studying with the same man because he was teaching at Cleveland State. And I wound up going there for a year and a half, and then I got a job on the road with the Tommy Dorsey Orchestra. And then that was it. Then it all went to pot.

[Terry Gross]

How do you think studying classical technique helped you playing jazz?

[Ken Paplowski]

Because again, it comes back to what I said before about Benny impressing upon us that sense of melodicism. You have to do the same thing if you're playing a piece that is all written out that somebody wrote a long time ago. You have to put your personality into that piece of music. And you have to first learn the technique. And then the trick is to forget about the technique and just Put some music into it. And if you can do that with classical music, that's a big stepping stone to doing it with jazz. And I love that kind of a classical, dark, round sound of the clarinet. It's such a beautiful sound that for me, that's what I strive to get, even if I'm playing something that's not classical.

[Terry Gross]

There's a piece of yours I want to play from an earlier CD called the Natural Touch. And this is a clarinet bass duet. And the song is How Deep Is the Ocean. And I want to play this because I suspect that it really shows off some of the things that you learned with the help of studying classical technique, like the beautiful tone that you have. And also some of the embellishments in your improvisation here sound like they might be inspired in part by some of the classical techniques that you learned. Do you want to say anything about this before we hear it?

[Ken Paplowski]

Just that. Well, you're absolutely right. Even now, when I practice, it's mostly etudes, classical etudes, and it all is information that goes into everything you do. So those little embellishments that you're speaking of do come right out of classical technique.

[Terry Gross]

Let's hear it. This is clarinetist Ken Poplowski. That's my guest Ken Paplowski on clarinet with Murray Wall on bass from Paplowski's 1992 CD the Natural Touch. And with your own band. A lot of the repertoire that you play is songs, you know, old standards. And it's almost wrong to call them standards because a lot of them are songs that not that many people know, but they're real songs. They're not just like riff based things or heads that people play just to improvise on. And I'm wondering what attracts you to song.

[Ken Paplowski]

Well, I have a very. A very low boredom threshold, honestly. And for me, if I'm bored standing up there playing, the audience has got to be asleep. So I want it the kind of records I like. You know, there's something about all those old writers. They constructed these beautiful pieces of music that told a whole story in 32 bars. And they're very interesting harmonically. They go to all these different places and there's so much material out there to draw on. And I'm not a composer, you know, so what I do is interpret other people's material. So I love to dig up old songs. You're absolutely right.

[Terry Gross]

Do you like to learn the lyrics of a song when you're going to play it so you can think about that?

[Ken Paplowski]

Yes, I really do. You know, it doesn't mean you have to memorize every word. But I think it's important to learn what was meant when they wrote the song and then you can take what you want from it. But if you're playing a ballad, it's nice to know what kind of a ballad it is, if it's a really haunting ballad or if it's just a song to try to woo some young lady. And my goal, ultimate goal, is to accomplish without words what the great singers accomplish using the words.

[Terry Gross]

Well, Ken Paplowski, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.

[Ken Paplowski]

Oh, it's been a pleasure.

[David Biancolli]

Ken Paplowski, speaking to Terry Gross in 1999, the jazz clarinetist and tenor saxophonist died Feb. 2. He was 66 years old. His final studio album was titled Unheard Bird and featured him on tenor sax with string arrangements written for but never recorded by Charlie Parker. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews the new film version of Wuthering Heights. This is FRESH AIR.

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Get podcasts on NPR's Wild Card podcast, Oscar nominee Wagner Mora on keeping his values on his path to success.

[Ken Paplowski]

There were moments I was like, oh.

[Rafael Sadiq]

I really need that money, man, you.

[Ken Paplowski]

Know, But I'm like, I can't do this. I can't do that because otherwise I'll be miserable.

[Tonya Mosley]

Watch or listen to that wild Card conversation on the NPR app or on YouTube.

[David Biancolli]

PRWildcard Emily Bronte's 1847 novel Wuthering Heights has been adapted for the screen numerous times. The latest version stars Margot Robbie and Jacob Elordi as Bronte's ill fated lovers Catherine and Heathcliff, and opens in theaters this week. It was written and directed by Emerald Fennell, the Oscar winning filmmaker behind Promising Young Woman and Saltburn. Our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

[Justin Chang]

More than a decade ago, the New Yorker published a piece titled Can Wuthering Heights Work on Screen? In which my now colleague Joshua Rothman argued that Emily Bronte's classic is beloved not just for its romance, but also for its strangeness, its intensity and its violence. These qualities, he noted, are often left out of the many films and miniseries the book has inspired, which tend to reduce the story to the doomed romance of Catherine and Heathcliff. The extravagant new movie Wuthering Heights, written and directed by the English filmmaker Emerald Fennell, is very much in this vein. It could be the most reductive version of this material ever made, but I can't say I was ever bored. As she demonstrated in her wild satirical thriller Saltburn from 2023, Fennell cares little for subtlety, and here she's made an ode to mad, passionate excess. You could say she tells the story in broad brushstrokes, but I don't think she's even using a brush, more like bright red spray paint. And she's cast two stars, Margot Robbie and Jacob Elordi. As a Catherine and Heathcliff you won't soon forget, even if their love affair is ultimately more photogenic than it is deeply moving. It begins in the late 18th century, around the time that the young Catherine Earnshaw, who likes to run wild on the Yorkshire moors, gets a new companion named Heathcliff, a scruffy urchin who comes to live with her and her father at their house, Wuthering Heights. Years later, and now played by Robbie and Elordi, Catherine and Heathcliff are extremely close, to the point of sharing a tense, quasi incestuous attraction. It's clear they love each other, even when Catherine expresses her interest in Edgar Linton, a wealthy aristocrat who's moved in to a magnificent estate nearby.

[Tonya Mosley]

Look at it all. He must be very rich indeed. I suppose you shall fall in love with me.

[Rafael Sadiq]

I suppose you shall fall in love with you.

[Tonya Mosley]

It would be nice to be rich.

[Rafael Sadiq]

What should you do, Heathcliff? What if you were rich?

[Ken Paplowski]

Suppose I'd do what all rich men do then live in a big house.

[Rafael Sadiq]

I'm gonna be cruel to my servants.

[Ken Paplowski]

Take a wife.

[Terry Gross]

A wife? What wife?

[Rafael Sadiq]

I've always looked fondly on.

[Ken Paplowski]

Rose from.

[Tonya Mosley]

The Crown, the landlord's daughter. She's quite the plainest girl I ever laid eyes on. And dull, too. Shockingly dull. She's practically a simpleton. I cannot sit here all day talking nonsense with you. After all, the Lintons may call on me at any moment.

[Justin Chang]

Catherine does end up marrying Edgar, played here by Shahzad Latif. Heathcliff storms off in a fury, only to return several years later with a fortune of his own and a fierce desire to either reclaim Catherine or have his revenge. He inflames her jealousy by setting his sights on Edgar's impressionable young ward, Isabella. That's Alison Oliver, giving the movie's sharpest performance. Up to a point. This is how past adaptations, including the classic versions directed by William Wyler and Luis Bunuel, have unfolded. But Fennell wants to make the story her own by infusing it with a hot and heavy sexuality that you don't typically see in a Bronte adaptation. Catherine and Heathcliff do a lot more romping in the rain than usual in scenes that Fennell stages for wicked laughs as well as earnest emotion. But it's precisely in the realm of emotion that this Wuthering Heights falters. Elordi and Robbie are fine actors and they do what they can to give this overheated movie a core of real feeling, but they are often overwhelmed by the sheer gargantuan excess of the filmmaking. The movie may be set in the 18th century, but Fennell draws on a wealth of contemporary inspirations, starting with the soundtrack, which features several moody songs by the pop star Charli xcx. The production design and the costumes are full of outre touches, from the bright red acrylic floor in one room of Catherine and Edgar's home to the Met gala ready gowns that Catherine wears in scene after scene. She changes outfits so often that Robbie at times seems to be playing Barbie all over again. There's a reason for all this anachronism. It's Fennell's way of saying that Catherine and Heathcliff's love story is so powerful that it transcends its period setting. But for all her bold choices, there are aspects of this Wuthering Heights that remain hidebound and conventional, including its treatment of race. Over the years, there's been much debate over the subject of Heathcliff's ethnicity. Bronte's book famously describes him as a dark skinned gypsy, and he's often been held up as one of the few protagonists of color in Victorian literature. Not that that's kept him from being played by one white actor after another, including Laurence Olivier, Ralph Fiennes, Tom Hardy and now Jacob Elordi. One underappreciated Exception is Andrea Arnold's 2012 version, which features two black actors, Solomon Glaive and James Howson, as the younger and older Heathcliff. Casting choices aside, Arnold's version is pretty much the antithesis of somber, downbeat and grimly realistic. It's a tougher but ultimately more affecting movie, and with Wuthering Heights fever having set in, now is as good a time as any to seek it out.

[David Biancolli]

Justin Chang is a film critic at the New Yorker. He reviewed Wuthering Heights now in theaters on Monday's show. As we celebrate President's Day, Donald Trump's aggressive moves to expand the power of his office may be redefining the presidency. We speak with presidential historian Jon Meacham. His new book, american Struggle, is a collection of important speeches, letters and other texts from colonial times to today. Hope you can join us. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm David Biancooli.

[Justin Chang]

Venezuela, Iran, Greenland. World events move quickly.

[David Biancolli]

Make sense of them with State of.

[Justin Chang]

The World from npr. We bring you on the ground reporting from around the globe in just a few minutes every weekday. Listen to State of the World on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rafael Sadiq]

Can a superstar be an actual voice of resistance? When it comes to the singer Bad Bunny, some say yes. Bad Bunny comes out of a long.

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