The Political Battle For The Bros

Summary

Summary of "The Political Battle For The Bros" - Fresh Air, NPR
Release Date: March 20, 2025
Hosts: Tonya Moseley and Andrew Morantz

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Introduction

In the episode titled "The Political Battle For The Bros," NPR's Fresh Air delves into the shifting political allegiances of young American men who have increasingly gravitated toward the MAGA movement. Andrew Morantz, a staff writer for The New Yorker, explores how Democrats are strategizing to reclaim this crucial demographic following significant losses in the 2024 elections. The discussion encompasses interviews with influential podcasters, streamers, and social scientists to unpack the underlying reasons for this political realignment and assess the viability of the left's efforts to win back these young men.

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Governor Gavin Newsom's Foray into the Manosphere

California Governor Gavin Newsom has ventured into the "manosphere"—a collective of political podcasts, streams, and YouTube channels predominantly featuring young men who support MAGA ideologies. In his new podcast, Newsom engages in unfiltered conversations with far-right media personalities such as Steve Bannon, Michael Savage, and Charlie Kirk.

Notable Clip from Newsom's Podcast with Charlie Kirk:

Charlie Kirk ([02:22]): "I'm honored to be on the show. Thank you."

Gavin Newsom ([03:07]): "The only reason she said she would have said it. The worst part, though, Charlie, no bs."

Andrew Morantz highlights the Governor's approach of appearing deferential to controversial figures, aiming to showcase Democrats' willingness to engage across the political spectrum. However, this strategy has drawn criticism for potentially being too accommodating.

Tanya Moseley ([05:20]): "It’s almost more important than what you say, at least to a certain type of voter."

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Democrats' Struggle to Reconnect with Young Men

A significant concern for Democratic strategists is the notable shift of young male voters toward Trump or abstaining from voting. Tanya Moseley emphasizes that young men are experiencing a crisis marked by educational setbacks, workforce challenges, and high rates of mental health issues.

Tanya Moseley ([07:20]): "Men are more likely to fall behind in school, drop out of college, languish in the workforce, or die by overdose or suicide."

Morantz explores how the right has effectively tapped into these issues, offering spaces for male grievances that resonate with this demographic.

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Influential Voices: Hasan Piker and Theo Vaughn

The episode spotlights key left-leaning influencers like Hasan Piker and Theo Vaughn, who play pivotal roles in shaping political discourse among young men.

Hasan Piker's Perspective:

Hasan Piker ([27:29]): "The solution to the Democratic Party's crisis right now is not to flood the market with more social media. The solution... is to change its policies."
([27:54]): "Address the real material harm that people are experiencing every single day."

Piker argues that Democrats need to prioritize substantive policy changes over expanding their social media presence to effectively address voters' concerns.

Theo Vaughn's Approach:

Theo Vaughn, a comedian and podcaster, emphasizes authenticity and relatability in his interactions, which helps build trust with his audience.

Theo Vaughn ([15:53]): "I can't make white males feel like they don't exist. What are we doing here?"

Vaughn's interviews often feature open-ended discussions that allow listeners to form personal connections with political figures, contrasting with more traditional, scripted media appearances.

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The Power of Parasocial Media

Morantz introduces the concept of "parasocial media," where audiences develop one-sided relationships with influencers like Joe Rogan and Theo Vaughn. These relationships foster a sense of trust and authenticity, making these platforms highly effective for political persuasion.

Tanya Moseley ([09:44]): "You have a certain amount of trust and a certain amount of generosity... that's a very powerful tool in culture and in politics."

This dynamic presents a unique challenge for Democrats, who may need to adopt similar strategies to engage authentically with young male voters.

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Financial Backing and Authenticity Challenges

The episode examines the financial investments from wealthy donors into right-wing podcasting and influencer spaces. Tanya Moseley argues that merely injecting funds into these platforms cannot replicate the organic trust and authenticity cultivated by long-standing influencers.

Tanya Moseley ([32:10]): "You can't grow Joe Rogan of the right in a lab because Joe Rogan wasn't the Joe Rogan of the right until a few months ago."

This underscores the difficulty Democrats face in creating equally influential and trusted voices from the ground up.

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Policy vs. Messaging: Democrats' Dilemma

A central debate in the episode is whether Democrats should focus more on policy reforms or strategic messaging to reclaim young male voters. While some argue that policy changes are essential, others believe that improving communication and relatability is equally important.

Tanya Moseley ([30:47]): "If your policies are unpopular, the messaging can only get you so far."

Hasan Piker contends that without addressing genuine policy issues, increased media presence will have limited impact.

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Conclusion: Can the Left Win Back Young Men?

Andrew Morantz and Tanya Moseley conclude that while challenging, it is possible for the left to regain the support of young men by addressing both policy shortcomings and enhancing authentic engagement through media channels. Success will likely require a combination of meaningful policy reforms and innovative communication strategies that resonate on a personal level with voters.

Tanya Moseley ([37:45]): "It's a combination of material factors and kind of cultural factors. ... it's possible for sure."

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Key Takeaways

• Engagement Strategy: Democrats are experimenting with direct engagement through podcasts and other media to reach young male voters.
• Authenticity Matters: Building trust through authentic and relatably presented content is crucial for influencing disaffected demographics.
• Policy Over Messaging: Substantive policy changes are necessary to address the real issues facing young men, beyond just expanding media outreach.
• Financial Constraints: Simply funding new influencers is insufficient; genuine connection and trust require time and authentic interaction.

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the central themes, discussions, and insights from the Fresh Air episode "The Political Battle For The Bros," providing a clear understanding for those who have not listened to the original podcast.

Transcript

[Tanya Moseley]

This message comes from Capella University. With Capella's flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your schedule. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.

[Andrew Morantz]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tanya Moseley. California Governor Gavin Newsom recently joined the manosphere, the world of political podcasts, streams and YouTube channels where young men have become the new MAGA vanguard.

[Gavin Newsom]

This is Gavin Newsom. And this is Steve Bannon. And this is Michael Savage. And this is Charlie Kirk.

[Andrew Morantz]

The Democratic governor says the purpose of his new podcast is to have unfiltered conversations with people he doesn't always agree with. And so far he's had on far right media stars, many of whom were instrumental in Donald Trump winning the election. Well, my guest today, the New Yorker staff writer Andrew Morantz looks at how Democrats are attempting to win back the support of young men in America, those they lost during the 2024 election. And for his piece, Morantz spent time with several high profile podcasters and streamers like Hasan Piker, a leftist star on the livestream platform Twitch with more than 3 million followers who's known for modeling modern masculinity with progressive polit. Morantz's article the Battle for the Young Men have Gone maga, can the Left Win Them Back? Appears in the current copy of the New Yorker. And Andrew Marantz, welcome back to the show.

[Tanya Moseley]

Thank you so much, Tanya. So good to be back.

[Andrew Morantz]

Yeah. So as we just heard so far, California Governor Gavin Newsom has had on a couple of right wing notables, including activist Charlie Kirk, who is the founder and president of the right wing student organization Turning Point usa. And I actually wanna play a clip from interview. Kirk had just finished an event at the University of Southern California. And for the first few minutes of the podcast, Governor Newsom talks with him about how his niece and son both know Kirk and how his son was especially excited that Kirk would be on Governor Newsom show. Let's listen.

[Tanya Moseley]

I'm honored to be on the show. Thank you.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you were just down at usc.

[Tanya Moseley]

I was at USC yesterday. Drew a big crowd.

[Gavin Newsom]

By the way, I knew you were at USC early because my, my niece.

[Tanya Moseley]

Who'S graduating, she was the one the MAGA hat on.

[Gavin Newsom]

She was, by the way, I do have to watch. But she was down there and she.

[Tanya Moseley]

Was like, she said you never know these kids are going to the right.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm aware. She said this crowd's crazy. And she, and the only reason she said she would have said it. Perhaps otherwise, but she knew you were coming on. The worst part, though, Charlie, no bs. True story. Literally, last night, trying to put my son to bed, he's like, no, Dad, I just. What time? What time's Charlie gonna be here? What time? And I'm like, dude, you're in school tomorrow. He's 13. He's like, no, no, this morning. Wakes up at 6 up, and he's like, I'm coming. I like, he literally would not leave the house.

[Tanya Moseley]

Did you let him take off school?

[Gavin Newsom]

No, he did. Of course not. He's not here for a good reason.

[Tanya Moseley]

But the point is, you cancel school for, like, two years once. One.

[Gavin Newsom]

The point is. The point. Which is you are making a damn debt.

[Tanya Moseley]

Thank you. I'm kidding. I'm.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, but I know, and I. But I appreciate that. I mean, it's the reason you're here, because I think people need to understand your success, your influence, what you've been up to, and the fact that you're on these college campus doors. And to your point, man, you just open up. I mean, you're like, ask me anything.

[Tanya Moseley]

Anything.

[Andrew Morantz]

That was a clip from California Governor Gavin Newsom's new podcast with conservative activist Charlie Kirk. Andrew, the big response and some of the criticism, particularly from the left, is that the governor is trying to find common ground versus challenging someone like Kirk, who has said some pretty inflammatory and offensive remarks. It actually appears that the governor is almost deferential. I'm wondering from you, how does this fit into what you've been writing about and researching about the Democrats battle for the bros?

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah, it's interesting. I listened to that episode, and he was being very deferential. I think it's also really funny the way, you know, you introduced it as Gavin Newsom joining the manosphere, because it's not clear what that means exactly, other than people talking in an unscripted way. So I understand the reaction to things like Gavin Newsom deferring to Charlie Kirk too much. My guess is that what he's trying to show is kind of modeling a. I'm not afraid I can swim into uncharted waters. You know, actually, later in that episode, Charlie Kirk makes the assertion that, you know, we, the MAGA movement, dominated the podcast space and the live streaming space because we're more masculine, we're unafraid of adventure, and we're unafraid to go into deep waters and all this stuff. Now, politically, I think people like Newsom are guessing that they'll fare better if they are willing to go out and engage and show that they're not afraid. And, I mean, this is something that I heard from multiple people in the piece. Just the idea of showing up and holding your own and humanizing yourself in many instances is almost more important than what you say, at least to a certain type of voter.

[Andrew Morantz]

Democrats lost support with nearly every kind of voter. But the defection that alarmed strategists the most was this significant jump in young men who voted for Trump or no candidate. And this comes at a time when men are in crisis. As you write, relative to their forefathers and their women counterparts, men are more likely to fall behind in school. They're more likely to drop out of college, languish in the workforce, or die by overdose or suicide. How did the right not only tap into that grim reality, but also offer a space for male grievance?

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah, so just to start from defining terms, so manosphere is, like a lot of Internet terms, pretty ill defined, and it keeps changing so often. Originally, when people use the term, it was for really, really extreme, hateful stuff. Right. So it was for Andrew Tate, who is a proud misogynist, defines himself that way, has been accused of human trafficking. Really, really, really bad dude. And so often when people talked about the manosphere, they would talk about that. But then it kind of migrated into people who are, you know, conservatives on gender roles or who don't even have, like, gender content that they often bring up, but maybe are just into things that are commonly coded as dude stuff, you know, video games or hunting or, you know, lifting weights or whatever. So all of that is kind of depending on who you're listening to, contained within that category. And there's no reason that the right has a monopoly inherently on being down to earth or being relatable. You know, it's been mentioned many times that people like Bernie Sanders have no problem going onto these shows and, in fact, have been criticized for going onto these shows. So it's a bit of a caricature, but it's definitely one that's stuck. And I think we can now see in the data is definitely one that hurt Kamala Harris in the last election.

[Andrew Morantz]

Well, relatable is a word that just keeps coming up in your piece. And you write about several notable personalities, influencers, streamers, podcasters. One of them is comedian and podcaster Theo Vaughn, who I personally have known since he was on MTV's Real World Road Rules back in the 2000s. So for most of his career, though, he has been apolitical. Can you talk about the power? And that built in trust through familiarity. Theo has been around for, like, 25 years. I mean, Donald Trump is a perfect example of this. He built a relationship with Americans as an entertaining figure for decades.

[Tanya Moseley]

Absolutely. And Joe Rogan has been around since he was, you know, telling people to eat worms on Fear Factor. And so. And I think you nailed it with the word trust and authenticity. I mean, a lot of times, and I think this is true for everyone, but I think it's especially true of listeners who don't think of themselves as political people, people who I think are sometimes pejoratively called low information voters, but people who just don't think it's their job to study up on the ins and outs of politics. Often what it comes down to is who do you trust? And so you hear a lot of conflicting, competing information. You know, you hear one source telling you doge is just a scam, and it's just, you know, a way for Elon Musk to enrich himself. And then you hear Joe Rogan or Elon Musk or Theo Vaughn saying, I don't know, it seems cool to me. You know, we're cutting waste from the government. And if you don't want to embark on the really difficult project of sifting through the conflicting evidence, you can just trust one source and not the other. So, you know, you mentioned Theo Vaughn. To my mind, he is a funny, really affable, kind of goofy guy. He presents himself as basically so curious that he almost seems to see it as his job to go in with no prior information into any conversation. And you can hear him from one week to the next. I mean, he, within the span of a week last summer, interviewed Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. And with each of these interviews, his stance is to kind of just sit back and go, oh, well, that's interesting. I never heard of that before. He kind of copied this format from Rogan, where when something new comes up that they don't know about, they have a production assistant or an intern or someone kind of sitting in the studio, and they'll go, oh, could you pull that up?

[Andrew Morantz]

Could you Google that they're the proxy for the audience?

[Tanya Moseley]

Yes, very much. It's a dorm room kind of sitting around at a diner kind of conversation. They are a proxy for the audience who may or may not know all the proper nouns. And so they'll just Google it for you in real time. And often that's why it takes two or three or four hours, because they're really not in a hurry.

[Andrew Morantz]

I want to play a clip from Theo's show. But did he invite Kamala Harris during that time period when he was having all of the candidates on last summer?

[Tanya Moseley]

You know, I believe he said he wanted to speak to her. Joe Rogan definitely said he wanted to have her on, but then there was some scheduling. He wanted to have her in studio for three hours and reportedly her campaign offered him one hour in another city. And they were kind of still negotiating the details. And then it ended up not happening. There are many people who, I mean, sort of should Kamala have gone on? Rogan has, you know, was one of the main Monday morning quarterback topics after she lost the election. And there are people who said she would have been great on Rogan because he wouldn't have asked her tough questions. He's not generally a very tough interviewer. There are other people who said she might have had a tougher time because she is more of a kind of buttoned up politician than Trump is. Certainly actually Joe Rogan was talking to Theo Vaughan on his podcast and he said he sort of crystallized this. He said, look, man, I didn't want to ask her about policy. I just wanted to get her in a room, get her talking for a couple hours. And I'd feel like if you start talking for that long, I'll just start to see if your mind is calculated or if you're just free. And so that seems to be for people like Rogan and Theo Vaughn and I think for a lot of their listeners and for a lot of potential voters, that seems to be like the main criterion. Are you calculated or are you just freed?

[Andrew Morantz]

Well, that's part of what you wrote about in your piece. Is that also this perception that Democrats are elitist?

[Tanya Moseley]

Definitely. And it did not used to be the case. Liberals used to be the counterculture. They used to be the upstarts. And liberals now have become defenders of norms and institutions. But it's now the case in the data and in the perceptions as well that the base of the Democratic vote is the educated vote. And if you're a working class voter, you know, white, Black, Asian, Hispanic, etc. You're starting to see in the numbers that people do not feel as at home in the Democratic Party. It's still not obviously across the board and the Democrats still win a majority of votes of people of color and women and all these things. But it's clear that the Democrats have lost this connection to being unassailably the party of the working class. And sometimes that has to do with policy and raising the minimum wage, and sometimes it just has to do with a vibe of feeling snobby or feeling like you're always being second guessed or you're always being fact checked or. I've heard it said that people don't even necessarily vote for the politician they like. They vote for the politician who they think likes them.

[Andrew Morantz]

Likes them. Right, right. Yes. You know, I mean, Trump was embraced by pop culture by appearing at UFC fights and football games and appearing alongside celebrities. I mean, the left did that too. Harris also had many appearances and was alongside celebrities. But do podcasters and influencers you spoke with really feel like it would have made a difference for Kamala Harris to make those same appearances at those same places? I'm just also thinking about, while there is, like, this offense against identity, that it does play such a huge role in all of this as well. I mean, many of the podcasters you feature are male. Many of them are white male.

[Tanya Moseley]

I guess my sort of like, really rudimentary rubric on this would be it's not, you know, how many celebrities can you line up on your side? It has more to do with kind of what does it signify? And, you know, to your point about identity, showing up at a UFC fight is not just a random room with a lot of people in it. It's about brutal combat. It's sending a very, very specific message. Certainly there was more that the Harris campaign could have done. For example, she tried to get booked on Hot Ones, the show where you eat really spicy wings.

[Andrew Morantz]

Hot wings, yeah.

[Tanya Moseley]

And that would have been, I think, a great humanizing moment for her. She could, you know, place for her to hang, be a human being, be relatable, you know. Yes, I think there is more that any politician can do to get out there. But a lot of times, you know, just speaking purely from a kind of media, new media, social media angle, it's not always can you get the biggest celebrity, because often that doesn't have the spontaneity, the authenticity, the feeling of, you know, this is really what people are like in a room. Beyonce is many, many things, but she's not spontaneous and authentic. She's very controlled about her image. I mean, the sort of behind the scenes moment that was working, as far as I could tell, the best for Kamala Harris was when she was giving someone cooking tips before she went on camera. Do you remember this when there was like.

[Andrew Morantz]

I think I do.

[Tanya Moseley]

She was about to get interviewed, and it was a kind of behind the scenes, almost like hot mic moment where, you know, someone asked her, how do you brine a turkey? And she said, okay, you want to get some salt and pepper? You want to really rub it in there. It wasn't about anything. It wasn't about what she would do as president, but she seemed like a human being. And I just think it's an element of campaigning that when you're too controlled, too risk averse, and too cautious and you let it fall by the wayside, you're leaving votes on the table.

[Andrew Morantz]

Okay, I want to play a clip from Theo Vaughn's show. It's when he had on social scientist Richard Reeves, who you also spoke with. Reeves is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and president of the American Institute for Boys and Men. And he talked to Vaughn about how men are struggling to find purpose in today's world and how during the pandemic, there was lots of research being reported about how the isolation would impact women and girls, but not necessarily men and boys. And here's Theo's response.

[Theo Vaughn]

I don't know if ever in my life there's been like a. Like a lot of organizations where it's like, hey, men need help. You know, it's like everything is that women need help with this, children, you know, and it certainly that makes sense. I always think back to, like, women and children first, like when the Titanic was sinking or something. You know, when something like that, it's like, women and children first.

[Tanya Moseley]

Right.

[Theo Vaughn]

And that's probably what most men would want as well. But at a certain point, you're like, hey, we exist. What are we doing here? You know?

[Andrew Morantz]

That was podcaster and comedian Theo Vaughn and social scientist Richard Reeves on Theo's podcast this past weekend. Andrew, you write about how at one point during this particular conversation, Theo said, I'm not speaking against any other group. I'm just saying you can't make white males feel like they don't exist. He's saying basically that mainstream media primarily focuses their attention on the plight of people of other identities, and no one is really telling the stories of the disaffected male. Is that something that you heard during your reporting often?

[Tanya Moseley]

Definitely. There was a really interesting moment on Theo Vaughn that I spoke to Stavros Halkias about. He's another comedian who's actually a much more leftist comedian. A lot of these guys are professional comedians for, I think, interesting reasons. And when Stavros went on Theo's show, Theo started to say stuff that sounded pretty xenophobic. And because Stavros is his friend, he didn't say, how dare you, sir? And get up and leave and storm out you know, he, he kind of laughed along and yes, anded the joke in a way that kind of steered him away from the xenophobia parts and toward a kind of more common understanding. To the point. By the end of that interview, Stavros was offering a kind of very concise explanation of why he thought Trump and the Republicans were terrible. And delivering this to Theo Von, who had kind of just been at Trump's inauguration and almost seemed to be in his corner. And it wasn't contentious, it wasn't heated, it was real disagreement, but it was in a kind of amiable bro y way. So I don't know, I mean, if that's the manosphere, then it's not as scary as all that. But it's not always possible to model that kind of agreement. It takes, you know, prior relationship. Often it takes, trust the word you brought up. So it's not like this is a kind of cure all for, you know, all the cultural ills of America. But I do think it's worth it for at least Democratic politicians to take note. The kind of pearl clutching aesthetic is just very, very off putting to people. I mean, I heard that more times than I could count.

[Andrew Morantz]

You said you had a theory or you found it interesting that many of these guys are comedians. Why is that? Have they just found their lane within the podcasting space or.

[Tanya Moseley]

Well, I think there's something about when your job is to talk for a living and to kind of push boundaries for a living, you, I think, kind of over index for that. I mean, a lot of the comedian's craft is to look at something you've seen a thousand times. You know, the line to get into the airplane or the, you know, room service at a hotel and find something quirky and new and maybe a little bit taboo to say about it. And so it kind of makes sense that if you're on one of these long form podcasts, it's not going to sound like, okay, here's a very tidy, efficient summary of the negotiations yesterday over the budget shutdown. It's going to sound like, man, like, what even is a budget? Like, why do we even give money to each other? Have you ever thought about that? You know, it's like sort of radically open. And I think a lot of Democrats underestimated how powerfully affecting that is for people. I mean, in the piece, I kind of refer to this as parasocial media. It's not social media in the sense of, you know, an algorithmic feed. It's parasocial in the sense that I mean. That word means basically a kind of imagined one way friendship that the listener has with the host. So if you're listening to Theo Vaughn or Joe Rogan for tens or dozens or hundreds of hours while you're at the gym or while you're folding laundry or whatever, you'd feel like you know them. I mean, I feel like I know them. And so then when they tell you something or they, they, they start a line of questioning, you have a certain amount of trust and a certain amount of generosity, like, oh, let's see where he's going with this. And that's a very, very, very powerful tool in culture and in politics. And I think for a long time there's been this assumption that, oh, politics is one thing and Spotify is another, and they're just not separate things at all. And I feel like it took way too long for political consultants to learn that about social media. I feel like they've now learned it about social media, but they're a little behind the ball on parasocial media today.

[Andrew Morantz]

Our guest is Andrew Morantz with the New Yorker. We'll be right back after a short break and continuing our conversation. I'm Tonya Moseley and this is FRESH air.

[Ken Tucker]

If you're a super fan of FRESH AIR with Terry Gross, we have exciting news. WHYY has launched a Fresh Air Society, a leadership group dedicated to ensuring Fresh Air's legacy. For over 50 years, this program has brought you fascinating interviews with favorite authors, artists, actors and more. As a member of the FRESH AIR Society, you'll receive special benefits and recognition. Learn more at Wheel.

[Tanya Moseley]

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[Andrew Morantz]

Let's talk a little bit about Hasan Piker. He's a Twitch star. He has millions of followers on Twitch, and for those who don't know, it's a popular streaming platform that started off being for gamers, but it's kind of really blown up and blown out of that as well. Like to be much more expansive, what is Piker's background and how did you two meet?

[Tanya Moseley]

I first encountered him in 2020 while I was covering the Bernie Sanders campaign for the New Yorker, and he was covering the Bernie Sanders campaign for his Twitch channel, which he had just launched. So he started out on a YouTube show called the Young Turks, which was one of the first online sort of populist left shows. It's been around forever and that it's Just happens to have been started by his uncle. Hassan was born in New Jersey, but he grew up mostly in Turkey, so he's kind of been back and forth between Turkey and the US his whole life. And when he landed in la, he got a job at the Young Turks, and he eventually went solo on Twitch. And what that meant was just basically streaming all the time. I mean, I thought I knew the basics of what Twitch was, but I really didn't get just how constant it is. So when I encountered him in 2020, I was, as I put it in the piece, a kind of youngish reporter from an oldish outlet doing the traditional thing of taking notes and then, you know, writing about it days or weeks later. And what Hasan was doing was he had a backpack on, an IRL backpack with a camera rigged up to it, and he was just live streaming it. And there were all these people in his chat, these kind of commenters who were constantly offering him comments in the chat. He was monitoring them on his phone, and people kept coming up to him out of the crowd and, you know, wanting to get selfies with him and get him to sign stuff. So it was kind of half journalism, half kind of celebrity influencer.

[Andrew Morantz]

How often is he streaming, too? Because I think that's really interesting. Like, just the span of time and the frequency.

[Tanya Moseley]

It's completely incredible how often. I mean, so that year, that was 2020. That year, he was live on camera for 42% of the hours of that year. Like, all the hours of the year, not waking hours. And he doesn't, like, film himself sleeping. Like, this is him hosting a show for 42% of his life.

[Andrew Morantz]

And you have an example of that. Like, you came to his door, you visited him, and you kind of saw this happen in real time.

[Tanya Moseley]

Oh, yeah. I flew to LA and I, you know, took a lift to his house and rang the bell, and, you know, he showed up at the door and he said, all right, sit out of the shot. Don't make any sound. I'll talk to you when I'm done. And then he just sat down and kept going for four more hours. This was already four hours into the stream that day. That was a Sunday. And so he's just doing it all the time, and he's getting numbers that are like, you know, that day, it was a Sunday. It was kind of a slow news day. He had maybe 30 something thousand people watching him simultaneously, which is, like, better than some cable networks and especially in the, you know, coveted youth demographic. And he was covering the overthrow of assad in Syria, which had just happened. He was covering a YouTube documentary about NATO. You know, just whatever he's looking at on his screen, you're looking at with him. And it actually sometimes can be really exciting. Like the next day when I came to his house, you know, he went to play basketball in the park and then he came back and said, okay, what should I talk about today? Maybe I'll talk about this, maybe I'll talk about that. And then about, you know, a few minutes before he went live, Luigi Mangione was arrested, the suspect in the United Healthcare assassination. And he said, okay, this is what we're talking about. And for six straight hours, he just went through all the things his commenters were sending him. You know, what was Luigi looking at on Twitter? What was he looking at on Goodreads? Can we watch his valedictorian speech from high school? And it's kind of thrilling to watch someone dig through it in real time and be making live commentary. I mean, it's kind of a high wire act. He's trying not to say something too erratic, but he's trying to be erratic enough to be entertaining. He was trying to be careful not to, you know, actually explicitly glorify murder, which is against Twitch's rules. But he was not exactly condemning Luigi either. Or he was kind of doing it, but doing it semi sarcastically. So it's kind of an incredible thing to watch someone do that for that long.

[Andrew Morantz]

He is one of the few left leaning stars on Twitch. Why do you think he's successful? And I should say he kicks off the thesis of your article. Like, what did you find most interesting about him as it relates to trying to lure young men who have gone MAGA to the left.

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah, he's really the only leftist star on Twitch. I mean, it's kind of hard to overstate how thoroughly platforms like Twitch have become magafied. And so Hasan Piker is really the only outspoken leftist. There are other people who probably have progressive politics, but they don't talk about politics all day. They talk about video games or something. He's like a real leftist. I mean, he's a kind of like a socialist Marxist leftist. And so he has a lot of views that put him to the left of the Democratic Party's leading politicians. You know, throughout the 2024 election, he was sort of taking this position that Trump is really terrible, so you should probably cast a vote against him. But, you know, I can't exactly defend what Harris and the Democrats are doing either. So it was this kind of critical Support Outlook. And we didn't end up having space for this in the piece. But I was reporting from the DNC in Chicago last summer. Hasan Piker was there. He was actually kind of given a seat of honor by the DNC because they realized that he's this very prominent voice in their coalition. And then he started saying these very, very edgy things about Gaza and then they took his credential away.

[Andrew Morantz]

Okay, I want to actually play a clip of Piker. He's talking about California Governor Gavin Newsom's new podcast in this clip. Let's listen.

[Hasan Piker]

Gavin Newsom started his own podcast. It feels like the Democrats kept asking the question, like, who's the Joe Rogan of the left? And then instead of hearing my answer to it, which was, you can't podcast your way out of this problem, they decided, oh, shut the. We just need to be the Joe Rogan of the left ourselves. The solution to the Democratic Party's crisis right now is not to flood the market with more social media. The solution to the Democratic Party's problem right now is to change its policies.

[Tanya Moseley]

It's a policy thing.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes, it's 100% a policy thing. And address the real material harm that people are experiencing every single day, recognize the hurt, and showcase the ways in which the Republicans are not helping people.

[Andrew Morantz]

Okay, that was streamer. Hassan Piker talking about California Governor Newsom's new podcast. And Andrew, one of the interesting things he says is that Democrats don't need to focus their attention on podcasting, but on addressing the needs of everyday people. And then he makes the point to say they should showcase the ways the Republicans are not helping people. Well, that one way to do that would be through platforms like this or social media, even though he doesn't say that. But what has stopped the Democratic Party from flooding the digital discourse with messaging in the ways that Republicans have?

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah, I think there's a bunch of stuff going on here. I think it's, it's a really important set of issues. So when someone like Hasan Piker says, you can't podcast your way out of this problem if you're the Democrats, I think it means a few things. So I don't think he is saying, stop all podcasting, stop all streaming. Right. It would be hypocritical of him to say that in the middle of his 10 hour stream. So he is not, not saying to pull out of the battlements that the left is currently in and is currently losing. I think what he's saying is you can't exclusively podcast your way out of the issue. So when he's objecting to someone like Gavin Newsom, it sounds like what he's objecting to is Gavin Newsom apparently saying, well, instead of rethinking, what about our policies is driving people away, let me just start a podcast and that'll fix it. Right? So it's sort of a question of is this a band aid solution? But Piker is like a really committed leftist and he really thinks that the Democrats do not have adequate solutions. So I think what he would probably say is, okay, great, someone like Kamala Harris should go on Joe Rogan. But when Rogan asks her, how are you going to fix the health care system? Instead of having a really simple answer like Bernie, like, we'll just give everyone health care, she has this sort of ticky tack, you know, technocratic answer like if you make under $60,000, we'll do this right. So I think he would sort of say that the policy doesn't make for good messaging because it's not universalist policy. It's not clear, simple policy. Now, you can agree or disagree with the sort of, you know, Bernie Bro, Democratic socialist policy platform, but it is empirically the case that when someone like Bernie Sanders goes on these shows, he doesn't have to struggle with how calculated to be he says what he says, which is what he says when he's talking to NPR or the New York Times or Fox News because he just says the same thing every time. So I think the Democrats can't podcast their way out of this means if your policies are unpopular, the messaging can only get you so far.

[Andrew Morantz]

Let's take a short break and we'll get back to this part of the conversation. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andrew Morantz, a staff writer for the New Yorker. And we're talking about his latest piece, the Battle for the Bros, which is a look at why many young men in America have gone MAGA and the battle on the left to bring them back. This is FRESH air.

[Ken Tucker]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. Start selling with Shopify today. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Go to shopify.com NPR I want to.

[Andrew Morantz]

Follow the money just for a minute. Are a lot of wealthy donors funding these podcasters and influencers on the right?

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah, there is definitely money going into the right wing podcast sphere, some of it from political donors and some of it just, you know, Joe Rogan got A massive deal from Spotify just because he was very popular. And part of what, you know, when Hasan Piker says, you know, the Democrats can't podcast their way out of this, I think part of what he means is you can't just have a kind of astroturf solution where you throw a bunch of money at sort of randomly selected people whose views you like. And that'll do it. Right? So to kind of play out that argument. The way that argument would go is, okay, let's say some left of center donor decided to give hundreds of millions of dollars to whichever, you know, TikTok star was kind of supporting the Democrats. Would that boost awareness of the Democrats? Probably. But what it wouldn't do is have the authentic feeling of an organic, trusted, authentic, weird voice. Right. So you were saying before, people who've known parasocially someone like Theo Vaughn or Joe Rogan for years, they have a kind of trust in them. And a lot of what that trust comes from is not just putting in the parasocial hours, although that's important, but also, frankly, how weird and idiosyncratic these people's interests are. You can't grow Joe Rogan of the right in a lab because Joe Rogan wasn't the Joe Rogan of the right until a few months ago. In 2020, Joe Rogan was the Joe Rogan of the left. He supported Bernie Sanders for president, and then between 2020 and 2024, he was lost. But the point I'm making with that is if you had decided to astroturf your way to Joe Rogan, you wouldn't have been looking in the right place because you wouldn't have been funding Joe Rogan. So a lot of where the trust and authenticity comes from is, you know, this is someone whose interests I actually just vibe with at a totally apolitical level. And then when they start talking about politics, maybe I'll take some advice from them. That's a very hard thing to kind of recreate from the top down.

[Andrew Morantz]

So, Andrew, one thing. President Trump always talks about how he is unfairly covered by mainstream media. What does the coverage look like in contrast to the way he is portrayed on these social platforms? You mentioned how he's just hanging out with many of these guys. And there's a very fine point to make here, that the freestyle nature of Trump's Persona is that what we're seeing is real and what we're being packaged in mainstream media is just that, like a packet just edited to feed an agenda.

[Tanya Moseley]

The way Hasan Piker put It to me is, yeah, Trump lies constantly, but at least people get the sense that he's saying what he really thinks. So it's kind of a tricky, double edged sword. Cuz I think a lot of his supporters don't even necessarily believe that he's being truthful, but they believe that he's authentically speaking his mind. And actually in his flagrant interview with Andrew Schultz, who I also spoke to for this piece, when Trump was interviewed on that podcast, he at one point said, you know, I'm basically a truthful person. And the host, Andrew Schultz laughed in his face and was like, what does that mean, a basically truthful person? But I think there is ironically some truth to it. I think Trump does constantly say things that are demonstrably false, but he gives the sense that what's happening on the inside of his brain is coming out of his mouth. And I think if the rubric you're using is are you calculated or are you just free? It's very hard to beat Donald Trump at that game. And I should also just say on the Rogan thing, we were talking about the, you know, did Kamala Harris try to do Rogan and all the miscommunications there. One thing I found interesting, when they were debriefing the kind of top campaign staffers debriefed after the election, they actually, on a podcast, they went on Pod Save America and they were talking about the different decisions in the campaign and what they could have done differently. And they were asked this sort of big question of the day, why didn't she go on Rogan? And they claimed that it was because of scheduling and they couldn't get to Texas that many times. Texas is not a battleground state. But another thing they said that just has stuck with me is they said, you know, we did want to do it, not so much for the conversation itself, but just because it would have broken through. Meaning, like, presumably it would have gotten attention in the mainstream media. And I just thought that's such a mistaken old school way of thinking. I mean, even, even now you're thinking the point of a Joe Rogan interview is to get a headline on CNN.com right? It doesn't. It's just backwards. But, you know, yeah, I think it's going to take a few years for people to catch up.

[Andrew Morantz]

Have you been listening to these podcasters since Trump took office, since we've been seeing the massive disruption in government and how are they approaching it?

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah, I mean, Elon Musk was on Rogan a week or two ago, talking about all this stuff. And it was after the Doge stuff had started, after they had made these massive cuts to usaid. And Rogan asked him, what's going on with this man? People say that, you know, like, babies are dying and all this terrible stuff is happening. And Musk just said, oh, no, that's not really true. And then they kind of moved on. You know, again, this is not a journalistic standard of pushback. This is not a, you know, I'm coming in with the receipts and I'm gonna make you answer. I think that could be really illuminating, actually, if someone could get someone like Elon Musk to sit down for 4 hours unedited with receipts and say, here, you said you cut a billion dollars, but it was actually a million dollars. Your explanation, please. You know, but I just don't think that is what someone like Joe Rogan sees his job as. I think he sees it as a hang.

[Andrew Morantz]

There's so much more to your article. We scratched the surface. But really, I just want to know from you, I mean, the title is the Battle for the Bros. Young Men have Gone maga. Can the Left Win Them Back? What did you come to after all of your reporting? Is it possible for the left to win them back?

[Tanya Moseley]

I think it is. Luckily, I'm not a political strategist, so I have no idea how to do it. But one thing we haven't mentioned, which I think I should just explicitly say, is, what do we mean by the left? Is actually a very live question. So when people talk about the, you know, can there be a Joe Rogan of the left, or can the left win back young people? Are the left and the Democrats the same thing or are they actually at odds? In many ways, a lot of what Hasan Piker does is criticize the Democrats from the left. And often what he says is, I'm a leftist, not a liberal. So one thing that has to be sort of resolved, or at least the tension has to be, I think, recognized, is what do we mean when we say the left? And then I think to the second part of the question, can the center left, Democrat, anti Republican coalition win young men back? I think yes. And I think it, you know, based on the conversations I've had with various people, you know, it's a combination of material factors and kind of cultural factors. So I think it's trying to deliver a coherent policy agenda that will actually benefit people and make their lives better and more meaningful. And then also showing up in these spaces, both online and irl, to tell them how you're going to do that. So easier said than done. And as I say, luckily it's not my job to do it, but it's possible for sure.

[Andrew Morantz]

Andrew Marantz, as always, thank you so much.

[Tanya Moseley]

Thank you, Tanya. This is great.

[Andrew Morantz]

Andrew Marantz is a staff writer for the New Yorker. His latest article is the Battle for the Bros. This is FRESH air. Rock critic Ken Tucker has been listening to new music releases and has reviews for new songs by Teddi Swims, nominated as best new artist in this year's Grammy Awards, and Benjamin Booker, who is doing interesting things with volume and distortion in his new songs. There's also an old pro in the mix, Neil Young, who has a new band as well as a new song that Ken says heralds some big changes. Here's his review.

[Neil Young]

Something's got a hold of me lately though I don't know myself anymore. Feels like the walls are all closing in and the devil's knocking.

[Benjamin Booker]

Teddy Swims had a big hit last year with the song Lose Control, which showcased his gruff but supple ballad singing. The Georgia born singer has clearly been influenced by Southern soul men like Al Green and Bobby Blue Bland. On his new album titled I've tried Everything but Therapy Part two, Swims offers a new set of love songs that demonstrate the depth of his romanticism. On Are you even real? He's so swept away he wonders whether he's dreaming the object of his adoration.

[Neil Young]

Are you even real or did I make you up? How could someone like you wanna give me love? Don't think I deserve it but I can get enough. You're so beautiful spiritual all like a.

[Benjamin Booker]

Where Teddy Swims offers up his vocals with glowing clarity, Benjamin Booker opts to reduce his singing to just another instrument in the mix of songs and styles found on his new album, called Lower. On his previous albums, Booker grappled with then current events such as the Black Lives Matter protests. The lyrics on his new album are more obscure, hinting at deep emotions whose rawness is either matched by or buried beneath layers of distorted guitars and keyboards. There's a beauty in the kind of musical chaos Booker creates. One of the best examples of this is same kind of lonely.

[Neil Young]

Like you want me to dream like this Me and you all love while we give a change if I can make it out tomorrow, if I could start up again if I could be the same kind of lonely if I could be the same kind of lone.

[Benjamin Booker]

A few years ago, Benjamin Booker opened for Neil Young on a few of Young's tour dates. Young himself is now showcasing a new band called the Chrome Hearts that includes Willie Nelson's son Micah on guitar and the great organist Spooner Oldham, who was part of the legendary Muscle Shoals rhythm section and co writer of hits like the Box Tops Cry Like a Baby. To judge from the band's booming first single, Big Change, however, Neil Young isn't seeking out pop or country sounds. He aims to have the Chrome Hearts sound at least as grungy as his usual backup, Crazy Horse, and the noise they make is powerful.

[Neil Young]

Big change is coming coming right home to you Big change is coming you, you know what you gotta do Big change is coming could be bad and it could be good Big change is coming it's coming to ride home where you stood Big change is coming.

[Tanya Moseley]

Big.

[Neil Young]

Change is coming Big drums are drumming heading up the long parade Big change is coming coming right through your gate Big guitar strumming, the singer says don't be late Big change is coming could be bad and it could be great Big change is coming.

[Benjamin Booker]

Big change is coming Young chance over and over Given the timing of the release and the image of Young waving an American flag in the video, there's an inescapable feeling that he's talking about the recent presidential election, though it's impossible to tell whether he thinks the changes are welcome or ominous. Like Teddy Swims and Benjamin Booker, Neil Young is letting loose with some big emotions but letting you judge how to interpret them.

[Andrew Morantz]

Ken Tucker reviewed new songs by Teddy Swims, Benjamin Booker and Neil Young. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with Seth Rogen, who co created and stars in the new Apple TV series the Studio, or with investigative reporter Gary Rivlin about the promise and peril of AI. Check out our podcast. You'll find lots of Fresh Air interviews and to find out what's happening behind the scenes on our show and get our producers recommendations on what to watch, read and listen to. Subscribe to our free [e-mail] Fresh Air Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Annemarie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CB Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Moseley.

[Ken Tucker]

This message comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.combank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC.