The Stories Behind Your Favorite Christmas Songs

Summary

Fresh Air – "The Stories Behind Your Favorite Christmas Songs"

Date: December 21, 2025
Host: Terry Gross
Guests: Mel Tormé (archive, 1977), Hugh Martin & Ralph Blaine (archive, 1989 & 2006), Jon Batiste (2024)

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Overview

This Fresh Air holiday special explores the rich histories and emotional legacies of some of the most beloved Christmas songs. Terry Gross looks back at in-depth archival interviews with legendary songwriters Mel Tormé ("The Christmas Song"), Hugh Martin and Ralph Blaine ("Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas"), and musician Jon Batiste as he reinterprets and reflects on both classic and sacred Christmas music. Through engaging conversations and rare anecdotes, listeners gain insight into the artistic process, stories of collaboration, and how these iconic songs continue to touch lives year after year.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Story Behind "The Christmas Song" (Chestnuts Roasting...)

Guest: Mel Tormé (Interview from 1977)
Segment Start: [02:14]

• Origins of the Song:

  • Written on a scorching July day in 1945 by Mel Tormé and his songwriting partner Bob Wells.
  • Inspiration came from Wells, who wrote wintery lines to cool himself off during a heatwave.
  • The main lyric lines ("Chestnuts roasting on an open fire...") were found scribbled on a notepad by Tormé when he arrived at Wells’ house.
  • “I thought I’d write something down, something that would cool me off. … And you know, this just might make a song. 25 minutes later, the song was finished.” – Mel Tormé [03:41]

• Division of Creative Roles:

  • Both Tormé and Wells contributed to lyrics and music, but Tormé was primarily the composer.
  • Tormé credits Wells with writing the pivotal opening lines: “The first four lines are really the most. They’re the ones that people remember. … Bob Wells wrote them, but that triggered the rest of the song.” [04:14]

• Favorite Version and Success:

  • Favorite Recording: Nat King Cole's version.
    • “He was the first and the best … that’s still the best record.” – Mel Tormé [05:20]
  • The song has over 500 renditions.
  • The royalties have been “utterly enormous,” making more than a million dollars each for Tormé and Wells.
    • “I could have bought a jet plane with it … it’s mind blowing.” – Tormé [05:56]

• Reception by Publishers:

  • Unlike many hit songs, it was almost immediately predicted to become a classic.
  • “From the very get go, from the very left hand corner, from the top of it, they said, Hey, this is going to be a big song.” – Tormé [06:53]

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2. Creating "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas"

Guests: Hugh Martin & Ralph Blaine (1989 interview), Hugh Martin solo (2006 update)
Segment Start: [08:55]; [14:15]; [17:05]

• Early Development:

  • Began as a madrigal-like melody Hugh Martin struggled with and threw away. Ralph Blaine persuaded him to retrieve and finish it.
  • The original lyrics were deemed too sad—even for the tearful scene in "Meet Me in St. Louis."
    • “The original version was so lugubrious that Judy Garland refused to sing it.” – Hugh Martin [19:20]
  • Early lines: “Have yourself a merry little Christmas, it may be your last. Next year we may all be living in the past.”
  • Producer and stars encouraged Martin to revise for a more hopeful tone.

• Collaborative Dynamics & “Jollying Up” for Sinatra:

  • The “muddle through somehow” lyric was changed at Frank Sinatra’s request for his “A Jolly Christmas” album.
    • “Frank called… he said, give me a happy line and I'll record the song. And Hugh came up with the line ‘hang a shining star upon the highest bough.’” – Ralph Blaine [11:19]
  • Martin later revealed on Fresh Air that Blaine was not an actual co-writer.
    • “First of all, I feel rather self-serving admitting this, but Ralph didn’t really write it, honey. We wrote our songs separately. So it’s words and music by me.” – Hugh Martin [17:05]

• Reflections and Favorite Versions:

  • Most cherished: Judy Garland’s original, Mel Tormé’s version, and Frank Sinatra’s interpretations.
    • “Judy Garland, of course—always tops with me. And Mel Tormé … Frank Sinatra, you can’t beat Mr. Blue Eyes.” – Hugh Martin [15:19]

• On Commercialization of Christmas:

  • Martin expresses dismay at how Christmas has become commercial and less magical with time.
    • “I just hate the Santa Claus and the jingle bells and reindeer and the wrapped packages and the holiday push … I just loved it when it was … old-fashioned.” – Hugh Martin [22:44]

• Anecdote – Terry’s Influence on Martin’s Singing:

  • Martin credits a past Fresh Air interview for encouraging him to continue singing.
    • “I never would have continued singing at all if it hadn't been for you … when at the end of the cut, you said, ‘Ooh, I like your singing. I like it a lot.’ And that thrilled me so that I kept on singing.” – Hugh Martin [24:10]

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3. Jon Batiste: Christmas Songs at the Piano

Guest: Jon Batiste (2024)
Segment Start: [28:05]

• Perspectives on Christmas Music:

  • Batiste discusses the emotional range: some songs are transcendent, others are “irritating earworms.”
  • A Charlie Brown Christmas soundtrack by Vince Guaraldi is a major influence; those melodies are a blueprint for Batiste’s own music.
    • “That soundtrack, that album really changed me a lot. A lot of that influence comes in to my music.” – Jon Batiste [30:00]

• Interpretations of Classics:

  • “God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen” – performed with a bluesy, minor key twist.
    • “God rest ye merry gentlemen. Let nothing you dismay…” [30:39]
    • “I love that melody … It’s got a blues thing to it.” – Batiste [31:39]
  • “What Child Is This?” (Greensleeves) and “O Come, O Come Emmanuel” – Batiste draws parallels in their tonal moods, evoking church bells and winter majesty.
    • “That sound is so … reminds me of bells ringing in the dead of night on Christmas Eve.” – Batiste [32:16]

• Personal Connections to Christmas and Church:

  • Shares memories of growing up in New Orleans with Catholic and Baptist traditions.
  • Describes the special feeling of midnight Mass and the role of hymns.
    • “For me, I actually connected to it most during that time.” – Batiste [34:44]

• "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas":

  • Batiste plays the song at Terry’s request, focusing on “muddle through somehow” and how the hopeful-yet-melancholic lyrics remain poignant.
    • “That lyric is one of my favorites, actually. Now that you mentioned it. It has a relevance to our time.” – Batiste [37:55]
    • Terry Gross: “I like the muddle through one.” [20:19]

• “O Holy Night” and Harmonic Analysis:

  • Batiste explains how the composition’s “minor 3 chord” provides a sense of blues and transcendence.
    • “Anytime you go to that chord, it’s a minor 3 chord. That’s one of my favorite progressions … that transition.” – Batiste [42:01]

• Improvisational Medley:

  • Batiste closes with a medley weaving Beethoven’s "Moonlight Sonata," his own composition “Don’t Stop,” and Leonard Cohen’s “Hallelujah.”
    • “So with all you've got. Don't stop. … Hallelujah, Hallelujah…” [43:21–46:26]
    • Terry Gross: “What was the middle piece that I didn’t recognize?”
      Batiste: “That’s a piece entitled Don’t Stop. It was the final track from my first album, Hollywood Africans.” [46:44]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------------|-------| | [03:41] | Mel Tormé | “I thought I’d write something down, something that would cool me off. … 25 minutes later, the song was finished.” | | [05:20] | Mel Tormé | “He [Nat King Cole] was the first and the best … that’s still the best record.” | | [05:56] | Mel Tormé | “I could have bought a jet plane with it ... it's mind blowing.” | | [11:19] | Ralph Blaine | “Frank [Sinatra] called us… he said, give me a happy line and I'll record the song. … ‘hang a shining star upon the highest bough.’” | | [14:55] | Hugh Martin | “It really had an emotional impact on me. It made me feel so connected with a generation that’s not my generation.” | | [17:05] | Hugh Martin | “First of all, I feel rather self-serving admitting this, but Ralph didn’t really write it, honey. … it’s words and music by me.” | | [19:20] | Hugh Martin | “…the original version was so lugubrious that Judy Garland refused to sing it.” | | [22:44] | Hugh Martin | “I just hate the Santa Claus and the jingle bells and reindeer and the wrapped packages and the holiday push. I hate all of that. … I loved it when it was … old-fashioned.” | | [24:10] | Hugh Martin | “I never would have continued singing at all if it hadn't been for you … you said, ‘Ooh, I like your singing. I like it a lot.’ And that thrilled me so that I kept on singing.” | | [30:00] | Jon Batiste | “That soundtrack, that album really changed me a lot. A lot of that influence comes in to my music.” (On "A Charlie Brown Christmas") | | [31:39] | Jon Batiste | “…It’s got a blues thing to it.” (“God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen”) | | [32:16] | Jon Batiste | “That sound is so … reminds me of bells ringing in the dead of night on Christmas Eve.” | | [37:55] | Jon Batiste | “That lyric is one of my favorites, actually. Now that you mentioned it. It has a relevance to our time.” | | [42:01] | Jon Batiste | “Anytime you go to that chord, it’s a minor 3 chord. That’s one of my favorite progressions … that transition.” | | [46:54] | Jon Batiste | “That’s a piece entitled Don’t Stop. It was the final track from my first album, Hollywood Africans.” |

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:14] Mel Tormé on writing "The Christmas Song"
• [05:20] Tormé on Nat King Cole's iconic version
• [08:55] Interview with Hugh Martin & Ralph Blaine on "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas"
• [14:15] Hugh Martin’s 2006 return discusses the true authorship and his feelings about the song’s impact
• [17:05] Martin clarifies authorship and the song’s evolution
• [20:23] Twisted Sister’s version of "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas" airs
• [22:18] Hugh Martin’s favorite Christmas memory and reflections on modern Christmas
• [24:10] Martin credits Terry Gross for encouraging his singing
• [28:05] Jon Batiste segment begins, reflecting on and playing holiday music
• [30:00] Batiste on “A Charlie Brown Christmas”
• [31:39] Batiste’s bluesy “God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen”
• [36:52] Batiste plays and discusses "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas" and "O Holy Night"
• [43:32] Batiste’s medley: Beethoven, his own song “Don’t Stop,” and “Hallelujah”

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Tone and Language

• The episode is warm, nostalgic, and reflective, marked by the personal candor of its guests and a conversational rapport with Terry Gross.
• Humor and humility are present, especially when songwriters discuss failed drafts, happy accidents, and the ever-changing nature of Christmas traditions.

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Conclusion

This Fresh Air holiday anthology connects listeners to the deep emotional wellsprings behind popular Christmas songs, from hot July days that sparked wintry lyrics to the revisions and negotiations with legendary performers. The mix of songwriting secrets, iconic performances, and Jon Batiste’s joyful reinterpretations demonstrate how these songs are both timeless and ever-renewed—reminders of loss, hope, and togetherness across generations.

Transcript

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[Terry Gross]

Hi, it's Terry Gross, back with another Fresh Air plus bonus episode. Just a quick note before we start. This is a special episode because we're making it available to all of our listeners. Usually, these PLUS episodes featuring interviews from our archive are just available for our FRESH AIR plus supporters. But in the spirit of the season, we wanted to give everyone a chance to listen. If you're already a PLUS supporter, we want to say thank you. We always appreciate your support. But if you're not yet, we hope you'll consider joining. It's a great way to support public radio. And you'll get access to all our weekly bonus episodes and including a Q and A episode I'm doing with our co host Tanya Mosley next week. So you can sign up now at plus.NPR.org fresh air Again, that's plus.NPR.org fresh air okay, let's get started with today's episode. To celebrate the holidays, we're featuring the composers of two of the best known and most enduring Christmas songs. We'll go back to 1977, when jazz singer Mel Torme told me the story behind co writing the Christmas Song, the one that begins chestnuts roasting on an open fire. Then we'll hear from Hugh Martin and Ralph Blaine, who co wrote have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas. We'll conclude with something recent from last year when Jon Batiste was at the piano playing and talking with me about his favorite Christmas songs. So here's the late jazz singer Mel torme back in 1977, when fresh air was still a local program in Philadelphia, talking with me about co writing the Christmas Song with Bob Wells. One of the songs that you sing is one of your own songs, which is the Christmas Song, a song that around this time of year you hear on the radio and you hear just walking along the streets and you hear it on television, you hear it wherever you go.

[Hugh Martin]

Chestnuts roasting on an open fire.

[Jon Batiste]

Jack.

[Hugh Martin]

Frost nipping at your nose, yuletide carols.

[Jon Batiste]

Being sung by a choir and folks.

[Hugh Martin]

Dressed up like Eskimo.

[Terry Gross]

How did you write it?

[Mel Torme]

Very simple story. Bob Wells and I wrote the Christmas Song together. We were songwriting partners. I went out to his house in Toluca Lake, California, on virtually one of the hottest July days I can remember in 1945. I went out to work. We worked every Day, we wrote every day. Walked into the house. He was nowhere to be seen. And I walked over to the piano, and on the piano was a spiral pad, notepad. And on that spiral pad was written in pencil, chestnuts roasting on an open fire, Jack Frost nipping at your nose. Yuletide carols being sung by a choir and folks dressed up like Eskimos. Now, that's a very key line, because when Bob finally came into the room, I said, what is this, Bob, this thing on the piano? He said, I'll tell you, I was sweltering today. I was so hot today, waiting for you to get here. He said, I just. I thought I'd write something down, something that would cool me off. I said, hey, that's a great idea. And, you know, this just might make a song. 25 minutes later, the song was finished. And that's the way we wrote it.

[Terry Gross]

How did it come to you? Like in a musical comedy where. In the movies where Mickey Rooney's walking down the street and starts writing Manhattan?

[Mel Torme]

No, not really. It actually came to me and to us, to Bob and I, because it was inspired by those four lines. As I say, he wrote the original four lines. And by the way, I want to give due credit, we were a songwriting team. I was the basic composer, but I'm a lyricist, too, and I'm very proud of my lyric writing. Bob was a superb lyricist who also had very fine, keen musical insights as well, on a composing basis. So we were a songwriting team. Bob wrote the most important words to that song. Because the first four lines are really the most. They're the ones that people remember. They're the absolutely most important lines of that song. Bob Wells wrote them, but that triggered the rest of the song. That's what inspired it.

[Terry Gross]

It's a beautiful melody. Whose recordings of that are your favorite?

[Mel Torme]

Well, there's one. And you know the one, don't you? Nat King Cole.

[Jon Batiste]

And so I'm offering the sample phrase to kids from 1 to 92. Although it's been said many times, many ways, Merry Christmas to you.

[Mel Torme]

He was the first and the best, and everybody, you name him, have recorded that song. There are over 500 different records of the Christmas song that have been printed, published, pressed, whatever you want to call it. But the Nat Cole version, not out of sentimentality, believe me, but out of the pure feeling that he got for the song and what it means to Bob and I, Bob and me, that that's still the best record.

[Terry Gross]

Do you have a wing of your house or a jet plane that is a result of the royalties of that song.

[Mel Torme]

Well, not exactly a jet plane, but I could have bought a jet plane with it because the royalties have quite candidly, and I say this with tremendous gratitude, been utterly enormous. We both figured out, Bob and I over the years because we wrote it well over 30 years ago. Remember, we wrote it in 45, it came out in 46, by the way. We were a little bit too late for even in July, we were a little bit too late for that Christmas season. So it came out in October of 46. We have each made over a million dollars apiece on that song. That's on the level and it's staggering. It staggers me when I when we finally figured out what our royalties had been. And that of course covers records, sheet music, what we call the ASCAP performance ratings on it. It's mind blowing. It just, it absolutely kills me.

[Terry Gross]

Did anyone tell you any publishers or music companies tell you that it would never make it, it would never work?

[Mel Torme]

Oddly enough, that's one piece of music that I've been involved in, Terry, where from the very get go, from the very left hand corner, from the top of it, they said, hey, this is going to be a big song. But I never dreamed, never dreamed. And neither did Bob, probably neither did Nat Cole that it would become the monster that it became. It's the biggest record that Nat Cole ever had. That includes Nature Boy, that includes anything that Nat ever did. It is a sing biggest record he ever had.

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[Hugh Martin]

I have kids under 18, so like time is very limited. That's why at BetterHelp, our therapists try to have sessions, sometimes at night, depending on the therapist or during the weekend. So I think that's what we need to tell the parents. You're not alone. We can help you out.

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[Terry Gross]

With Mel Torme was recorded in November 1977. Torme died in 1999. Next up is an excerpt from my 1989 interview with the songwriting duo Hugh Martin and Ralph Blaine. They wrote my favorite Christmas song, have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas. It's just one of the songs they wrote for the classic 1944 Judy Garland musical Meet Me in St. Louis, which Turner Classic Movies almost always plays around Christmas. Here's Judy Garland.

[Jon Batiste]

Have yourself a merry little Christmas Let your heart be light Next year here all troubles will be out of sight. Have yourself a merry little Christmas make.

[Terry Gross]

The Yuletide gay.

[Jon Batiste]

Next year O all our troubles will be miles away.

[Terry Gross]

Once again, Hugh Martin and Ralph Blaine. Welcome to FRESH air.

[Hugh Martin]

Thank you, Terry. Thank you for having us.

[Terry Gross]

One of the things I really love about have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas is that, well, so many of the Christmas songs have these, like, cheerful platitudes, and this is such a a kind of brooding song about loss in a minor key. Tell me the story behind writing the song.

[Hugh Martin]

Well, it began with the melody. I found, a little madrigal like tune that I liked but couldn't make work. So I played with it for two or three days and then I threw it in the wastebasket and forgot about it. But Ralph, bless his heart, tell her how you reacted. I remembered that little melody and it kept haunting me. And I came into the room one day and I said, Hugh, what did you do with that little melody that you were fooling around with at the piano, like a madrigal? He says, I threw it in the wastebasket. I said, oh, no, I think I've.

[Mel Torme]

Got a great idea.

[Hugh Martin]

You mustn't do that. Let's get it. And so we dug around in that wastebasket and we found it. Thank the Lord we found it. Yes. And then we wrote a lyric which nobody liked, especially Judy, because it was extremely sad and tragic. Can you sing it the way it was? Have yourself a merry little Christmas it may be yours. Next year we will all be living in the past. Have yourself a merry little Christmas Pop that champagne cart. Next year we will all be living in New York. And we thought that was just dandy because it was a sad scene. But they said, no, no, it's a sad scene, but we want a sort of an upbeat song which will make it even sadder if she's smiling through her tears. So then we wrote the one that, you know, in the movie, and then there was another version. RALPH One day Frank Sinatra called us and said he wanted to record the song, but he couldn't sing the line about until then we'll have to muddle through somehow. So he said, give me a happy line and I'll record the song. It was because of the title of his album, which was A Jolly Christmas. He wanted us to jolly it up a bit. And Hugh came up with the line, hang a shining star up on the highest bough. And Sinatra was delighted and recorded the song. In fact, he's recorded it three times. Hang a shining star upon the highest bar.

[Jon Batiste]

And have yourself.

[Hugh Martin]

A merry little Christmas night. Happy christmas. Happy christmas.

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[Terry Gross]

That was an excerpt of my interview with songwriters Hugh Morton and Ralph Blaine from 1989. Blaine died in 1995, but I had Martin on again in 2006 when he was 92 years old. He revealed something about have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas that he felt he couldn't mention in the interview we just heard. He also had just recorded a lovely version of the song. Hugh Martin, Merry Christmas, and welcome back to FRESH air. I think about you all the time around Christmas because I hear your song have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas all the Time. What's it like for you at Christmas when your song is all over?

[Hugh Martin]

Well, I just received a little demo from my publisher with about 11 new versions of have Yourself, and I tell you, it really had an emotional impact on me. It made Me feel so connected with a generation that's not my generation. I really was moved to tears by it.

[Terry Gross]

What are some of your favorite like all time favorite versions of the song?

[Hugh Martin]

Well, my all time favorite versions are from the olden days. It was Judy Garland of course, always tops with me and Mel Torme who wrote a beautiful new verse for it. She's really out of this world once.

[Jon Batiste]

Again as in olden days Happy golden.

[Hugh Martin]

Days of yore Loving friends who are.

[Jon Batiste]

Dear to us Will be near to us once more.

[Hugh Martin]

And Frank Sinatra, you can't beat Mr. Blue Eyes.

[Terry Gross]

And the strangest versions you've ever heard.

[Hugh Martin]

The strangest version was by a group called Twisted Sister. Have you ever heard of them?

[Terry Gross]

Oh yes, I don't think I know their version of have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas.

[Hugh Martin]

That was really weird. They sang it.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I think as we speak our producers are looking for a copy of that and by the time this is over, I bet we will have it.

[Hugh Martin]

Oh, another beautiful one is, have you heard of this group called Celtic Woman?

[Terry Gross]

No, no I haven't.

[Hugh Martin]

Well, they're a bunch of Irish girls with beautiful voices, very high and they are beautiful.

[Mel Torme]

Have yourself a merry Little Christmas Christmas.

[Jon Batiste]

Make the Utah K from now.

[Terry Gross]

Now you once told a story on our show about how you and your late partner Ralph Blaine wrote have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas. Can I ask you to tell it again?

[Hugh Martin]

Well, first of all, I feel rather self serving admitting this, but Ralph didn't really write it, honey. We wrote our song separately. So it's words and music by me.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, well good. So now you're really able to tell the complete story.

[Hugh Martin]

You can really tell the complete story. Ralph was working in one room and I was working in another on meet me in St. Louis and I played the first 16 bars of have youe Supper, Merry Little Christmas over and over and over and got stuck. I could not get. I couldn't find a bridge for it. And so I just put it aside and decided not to work on it. And Ralph, who had heard it through the walls, came to me the next day and said, whatever happened to that little madrigal sounding melody that you were playing? And I said, well, I couldn't make it work, Ralph. And so I discarded it. And he said, well you find it and finish it because I have a big feeling about it. And so we did find it and I did finish it. But the original version was so lugubrious that Judy Garland refused to sing it. She said if I sing that for little Margaret o', Brien, they'll think I'm a monster. So I was young then and kind of arrogant, and I said, well, I'm sorry you don't like it, Judy, but that's the way it is. And I don't really want to write a new lyric. But Tom Drake, who played the boy next door, took me aside and said, hugh, you've got to finish it. It's really a great song potentially, and I think you'll be sorry if you don't do it. So I went home and wrote the version that's in the movie.

[Terry Gross]

Now, I should explain that in the 1944 movie musical Meet Me in St. Louis, when Judy Garland sings this, you know, she and her younger sister are very It's Christmas time. But she and her younger sister are very unhappy because their father's job is. Is taking him from St. Louis to New York, and he's going to move the whole family to New York, and they don't want to go and leave their friends behind. So the younger sister, played by Margaret o', Brien, is crying, and Judy Garland tries to comfort her by singing the song. Now, you said that the first version was lugubrious. What made the lyrics lugubrious?

[Hugh Martin]

Well, I'll sing it for you. Have yourself a merry little Christmas it may be your last Next year We may all be living in the past Pretty sad.

[Terry Gross]

But you changed that lyric, didn't you?

[Hugh Martin]

Yeah, I did. The one in the movie was, let's see. Have yourself a meadow of Christmas oh, until then we all will be together if the fates allow until then we'll have to muddle through somehow that was one that was in the movie. Then I got a phone call from Frank Sinatra saying, I'm doing an album called A Jolly Christmas, and I love your song, but it's just not very jolly. Do you think you could jolly it up a little bit for me? So then I wrote the line about have you hang a shining star up on the highest bough. And Frank liked that and recorded it. And people, they do, sometimes they do that line, and sometimes they do the muddle throughsome.

[Terry Gross]

I like the muddle through one.

[Hugh Martin]

I like the muddle through one better, too.

[Terry Gross]

My guest is songwriter Hugh Martin, and here's Twisted Sister from their album A Twisted Christmas. As you'll hear, they use the line Martin wrote for Sinatra.

[Jon Batiste]

Ho, ho, ho, let's go Ho, ho, ho, let's go Happy all still the merry little Christmas Let your heart be light from now on the trouble will be out outside. Carry yourself the merry little Christmas make the yuletide day from now on the troubles will be miles away. Here we are as in olden days Happy golden days Love your faithful friends who are dear to us Together near to us once more through the years we all will be together Give the flames around Hang a shining star above the highest. But have yourself A merry little Christmas Mouth, Let's go.

[Terry Gross]

Let me ask you to share with us your favorite Christmas memory, since we all have your song playing in our soundtrack of Christmas.

[Hugh Martin]

Well, my favorite Christmas memory was of being six or seven years old and my mother decorating the tree. And she was a very artistic woman and she did sensational Christmas trees. So it was a real joy every year when she would decorate it. And it was a very wonderful moment. That was my favorite Christmas memory.

[Terry Gross]

And what's Christmas like now?

[Hugh Martin]

Oh, do I have to say?

[Terry Gross]

You don't.

[Hugh Martin]

I'm really upset by Christmas now. I just hate the Santa Claus and the jingle bells and reindeer and the wrapped packages and the holiday push. I hate all of that. I just loved it when it was, well, all my life ago. 90 years ago, you liked it when.

[Terry Gross]

It was less commercial.

[Hugh Martin]

Oh, yes. Didn't you? Well, of course, you're not old enough to remember when it was pretty commercial, but I loved it when it was old fashioned. We didn't even have electric lights on our tree. We'd have candles.

[Terry Gross]

Well, that's considered very dangerous now.

[Hugh Martin]

Well, I know it is, but we didn't have any problem. It worked out okay.

[Terry Gross]

We're about to hear a version of have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas that you recorded a year ago and was released earlier this year in a CD that's called Hugh Sings Martin.

[Hugh Martin]

Right.

[Terry Gross]

And this features recordings that you've made, you know, throughout your career, particularly like in the. I guess in the 40s and 50s.

[Hugh Martin]

That's right.

[Terry Gross]

But it has this new recording from a year ago. You made this recording when you were 90?

[Hugh Martin]

I was 90 years old. I don't know how I got through it.

[Terry Gross]

And you're at the piano playing and singing. It's quite beautiful. Do you want to say anything about making this recording before we hear it?

[Hugh Martin]

Well, I just want to say, Terry, that I never would have continued singing at all if it hadn't been for you. Because you did an interview with Ralph and me in 1989, I think it was when Meet Me in St. Louis opened on Broadway and you played a little recording of me singing the Trolley Song. And I was just about to stop singing because I wasn't getting all that much encouragement. But when at the end of the cut, you said, ooh, I like your singing. I like it a lot. And that thrilled me so that I kept on singing.

[Terry Gross]

Well, it thrills me to hear you say that. And I still really like your singing.

[Hugh Martin]

Thank you.

[Terry Gross]

And I want to wish you a merry Christmas. And I want to thank you for writing such a great Christmas song. Some of those Christmas songs tend to wear thin. Well, God, really, your song is so enduring. It's just one of the most beautiful and moving, I think, of all the of all the Christmas songs. So thank you so much and thank you for talking with us again.

[Hugh Martin]

Thank you deeply for saying that.

[Terry Gross]

And Merry Christmas.

[Hugh Martin]

Merry Christmas, Terry, and Happy New Year.

[Terry Gross]

And I hope it's a very healthy one for you.

[Hugh Martin]

I think it will be. Bye. Bye. Here we are as in olden days, Happy golden days of yore. Faithful friends who were dear to us Gather near to us once more. So have yourself a merry little Christmas now.

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[Terry Gross]

Learn [e-mail] My interview with songwriter and musician Hugh Martin was recorded in December 2006. He died in 2011. Finally, I want to play an excerpt of my interview with pianist and singer John Batiste when he joined us at the piano last year and played and talked about some of his favorite Christmas songs. Batiste Became famous as the first band leader for the Late show with Stephen Colbert. He's won Grammys and an Oscar. Let's listen. So as we speak, Christmas is coming up soon. And I don't know how you feel about Christmas music, in my opinion, like, some of it is just, like, really fun. Some of it is kind of transcendent, and some of it is so irritating, causing, like, the worst earworms and like, just like. Please don't play that again. I never want to hear that again. So what's your take on Christmas songs?

[Jon Batiste]

Well, you know, I mean.

[Terry Gross]

Charlie Brown.

[Jon Batiste]

I love this one. Vince goes. That's a deeply existential decision. And then blues. Oh, let's see. The water when I. Christmas.

[Terry Gross]

Those are both. Yeah, those. Aren't those both from Vince Guaraldi's A Charlie Brown Christmas?

[Jon Batiste]

Yeah. I associate a lot of that series and Vince Garaldi in general with Christmas. I know he's done a lot more than Christmas music, but that. That soundtrack, that album really changed me a lot. A lot of that influence comes in to my music.

[Terry Gross]

Is there a hymn that you especially love that's kind of Christmas oriented? And could you play and sing it?

[Jon Batiste]

Let's see if I got. Ooh, you know that one?

[Terry Gross]

God rest you married gentlemen.

[Jon Batiste]

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ooh, that's got a song. God rest ye merry gentlemen Let nothing you dismay Remember Christ the savior was born on Christmas day To save us from all Satan's power When we had gone astray O good tidings of comfort and joy Comfort and joy oh, good tidings of comfort and joy. I love that melody.

[Terry Gross]

Look.

[Jon Batiste]

God rest ye merry gentlemen. It's got a blues thing to it. Let nothing you dismay.

[Hugh Martin]

Our.

[Jon Batiste]

Our hymns.

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What about.

[Jon Batiste]

You know that one?

[Terry Gross]

That's Green Slayers, isn't it?

[Jon Batiste]

Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Similar type of melodies. You know, that sound is so. It reminds me of bells ringing and in the dead of night on Christmas Eve and just snowfall. And there's a majesty to that. There's a majesty to that time and that moment. For many reasons, obviously, but there's something about that space in time that, you know, certain Christmas music is able to manifest that feeling in that environment into sound. It's able to make it sound.

[Terry Gross]

You know, it's funny. Like, what child is this that you just played? And when you played God Rescue Mary Gentleman, I never heard it as kind of minor key and dark as you played it.

[Jon Batiste]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I like it like that.

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I don't know.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, me too.

[Jon Batiste]

You know that.

[Terry Gross]

Sa.

[Hugh Martin]

Wow.

[Terry Gross]

I don't know that. What is that?

[Jon Batiste]

That's Okambo Come Emmanuel. I grew up with those two. That's amazing that those songs just have that. That same sound.

[Terry Gross]

What was church like for you when you were growing up in a Catholic family? Right?

[Jon Batiste]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I grew up in the Catholic. My mother, she grew up Baptist, and then we went to Catholic church, but also sometimes go to the Baptist church and then eventually the AME church. So I had this experience with mostly Catholic, but then also in New Orleans. There's a lot of different manifestations of the Roman Catholic tradition. It's very tied to the culture and to Mardi Gras in ways that are very interesting. But it was beautiful in particular on Christmas, where we go to midnight Mass and we would experience these hymns and people would sing and just have this majesty and this real allure. For me, I actually connected to it most during that time. And I also learned a lot from Bach's music. You know, we talked about Bach in the past and just how Bach is somebody who. In history. You know, him and Duke Ellington, they composed so much music. But one function of why Bach was able to compose that much music, besides the fact that maybe he was an alien, is that he wrote for the church every Sunday. And that ritual. And I imagine at some point, I don't know when in my life or when I would have the. The setup to do that, but I want to participate in some sort of ritual in service to the Creator, where I'm composing and sharing that music, just like I experienced when I was growing up.

[Terry Gross]

My two favorite Christmas songs, one of them is secular, and one of them is more, you know, about Christmas and about Jesus. So the secular one is have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas from the film meet me in St. Louis. And, you know, you were talking about, like, sounding like church bells before. The opening chords of this are so church bells. And the more religious song is oh, Holy Night, which I think is just such a beautiful song. Could you play either or even both?

[Jon Batiste]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have yourself merry little Christmas Let your heart be light. Next year Ola. Troubles will be out of sight. That one, right?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. And it's a part. The by next year part is a part that sounds like church bells. The chords there.

[Jon Batiste]

By next year.

[Hugh Martin]

Yes.

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Wow.

[Jon Batiste]

Ooh, Terry, you got an ear. You hear that, Terry? That's it.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jon Batiste]

Troubles will be out of sight I love that. That. That lyric has.

[Terry Gross]

Wow.

[Jon Batiste]

Wow. That lyric is one of my favorites, actually. Now that you Mentioned it. It's. It has. It has a relevance to our time.

[Terry Gross]

And the great. A great line in it, too, is, until then we'll have to muddle through some.

[Jon Batiste]

That's. That's the one I was thinking. Okay.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[Jon Batiste]

Someday soon we all will be together if the fates allow. Until then we'll have to muddle through somehow so have yourself A merry little Christmas now.

[Terry Gross]

Nicely done.

[Jon Batiste]

That's a great one. I'm just remembering these. This beautiful stuff.

[Terry Gross]

Do you like Old Holy Night?

[Jon Batiste]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's. O holy night. The stars are brightly shining. It is the night I dear. Of our dear Savior's birth. At long lay the world in sin and e' er pining Till he appeared and the soul felt all it's worth. That's how it goes, right?

[Terry Gross]

Yes.

[Jon Batiste]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[Jon Batiste]

I remember. I'm trying to remember. Oh, the. That sound remind me of this.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, that's more Beethoven.

[Jon Batiste]

Sa.

[Terry Gross]

That's one of the Beethoven things that you reimagine on your new Beethoven plus album.

[Jon Batiste]

But that's of a different reminder. The holy night. The stars are brightly shining. Like, this is what I'll do. I'm hearing, like, the symmetry of both of those melodies, and I.

[Terry Gross]

No.

[Jon Batiste]

Holy night year. The stars are brightly shining. It is the night Our dear savior's birth.

[Hugh Martin]

Wow.

[Jon Batiste]

There's something there. You've given me an idea.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, good. It is the night part, that descending line, I think, that has so much drama in it.

[Jon Batiste]

Oh, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Just like the musical line.

[Jon Batiste]

Yes, yes. What's the part on the bridge? The fall on your knees.

[Terry Gross]

And that's the other drama part. The fall on your knees. Yeah.

[Jon Batiste]

The angel voices. Oh, night divine. All night all night divine. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Hugh Martin]

Wait, listen.

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With a.

[Jon Batiste]

On your knee, anytime you go to that chord, it's a minor 3 chord. That's one of my favorite progressions. You got the one chord, and then you go to the three. One, two, three. That transition.

[Terry Gross]

It gives me chills.

[Jon Batiste]

The angel voices. Oh, night. Divine. Yay. That's blues.

[Hugh Martin]

See that? Yay.

[Terry Gross]

Since I made so many suggestions of what to play, I'd like you to choose the last piece. And whether you want it to be a Christmas song or a Beethoven composition or anything else, whatever mood you feel like playing. Is that too wide open for you?

[Jon Batiste]

I'm going to figure it out as I play.

[Terry Gross]

Okay.

[Jon Batiste]

Sa. Sam. Don't stop dreaming. Don't stop believing. Cause you know that our time is coming up. So let's soak up the day and dance the night away. So with all you've got. Don't stop. I heard there was a secret chord that David played and it pleased the Lord. But you don't really care for music, do you? It goes like this, the fourth, the fifth, the minor fault in the major lift the baffled King composed Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah.

[Terry Gross]

Wow, that was wonderful. And so it started with Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, went to what I think is probably an original song that I'm not familiar with, and then into Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah. Beautifully done. Beautiful connections in there. What was the middle piece that I didn't recognize?

[Jon Batiste]

Yes, that's a piece entitled Don't Stop. It was the final track from my first album, Hollywood Africans.

[Terry Gross]

That was beautiful. Thank you for being so generous and so interesting and illustrating so much music for us. I so appreciate it. And I also wish you a Merry Christmas.

[Jon Batiste]

Oh, thank you so much. It's a pleasure every time. Thank you very much for your gift to the world and for who you are. Much love.

[Terry Gross]

Oh gosh, thank you. That was Jon Batiste on our show, recorded in December of last year. One quick note. If you want to hear more about the history of Nat Cole's version of the Christmas song and what's made it special, you can listen to an episode about it on NPR's All Songs Considered podcast from December 18th. It's a great deep dive into the history of American Christmas music. A link to the episode is on our show Notes. Our fresh air plus bonus episodes are produced by Chow2. Our engineer was Adam Stanischewski. I'm Terry Gross. Thanks for your continued support of our work here at Fresh Air and Happy Holidays.

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