The True Story Of Abuse And Injustice Behind 'Nickel Boys'

Summary

Fresh Air: The True Story Of Abuse And Injustice Behind 'Nickel Boys'

Host: Dave Davies
Guest: Colson Whitehead, Author of The Nickel Boys
Release Date: January 17, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Fresh Air, host Dave Davies engages in an in-depth conversation with acclaimed novelist Colson Whitehead about his latest work, The Nickel Boys. This poignant novel, inspired by the harrowing true story of the Dozier School for Boys in Florida, delves into themes of systemic abuse, racial injustice, and the enduring impact of trauma. The discussion not only explores the historical context and personal motivations behind the book but also examines its adaptation into a feature film.

Background and Inspiration

Colson Whitehead, renowned for his diverse literary works ranging from The Underground Railroad to various speculative fiction novels, shares the impetus behind The Nickel Boys. Whitehead recounts stumbling upon the tragic legacy of the Dozier School through news reports in 2014, a revelation that deeply resonated with him amidst the national discourse on police brutality and racial injustice.

Whitehead (01:32): "If everybody looks the other way, then everybody's in on it. If I look the other way, I'm as implicated as the rest. It's not how it's supposed to be."

This discovery compelled Whitehead to shed light on similar institutions where systemic abuse thrived under the guise of reform.

Research Process

Whitehead elaborates on his extensive research process, which included delving into survivor accounts, archival photographs, and local Florida reports. Despite his initial intention to visit the closed Dozier School, the overwhelming sense of dread he felt prevented him from doing so, leading him to channel his findings into fiction instead.

Whitehead (05:23): "Talking to some folks in Canada, they talked about residential schools there where indigenous kids were taken from their families and put in schools to learn about white culture. And the same kind of abuse happened."

Main Themes and Characters

At the heart of The Nickel Boys is Elwood Curtis, an optimistic African American teenager inspired by the Civil Rights Movement. Elwood's unwavering belief in justice and his admiration for figures like Martin Luther King Jr. are central to his character development. Whitehead explores how Elwood's ideals are brutally tested within the oppressive environment of the Nickel Academy.

Whitehead (13:29): "He's one of these very optimistic and idealistic sorts who thinks that if he wants to do it, he can do it."

The narrative juxtaposes Elwood’s hope against the stark realities of systemic racism and institutionalized violence, illustrating the profound personal and societal conflicts that arise from such environments.

Depiction of Abuse and Injustice

Through vivid descriptions and survivor testimonies, Whitehead captures the gruesome realities faced by the boys at Nickel Academy. The novel does not shy away from depicting the physical and psychological abuses that were rampant, drawing parallels to historical instances of systemic oppression.

Whitehead (20:48): "There are kids in unmarked graves with blunt trauma to their skulls and gunshot pellets in their rib cages. And so how they get there? Teenagers buried in the ground with great evidence of violence."

These narratives serve to underscore the enduring trauma and the long-lasting scars left on the survivors, painting a stark picture of institutional failure and moral corruption.

Personal Reflections and Societal Impact

Whitehead reflects on the cyclical nature of progress and regression in racial equality, expressing a sense of pessimism about immediate societal change but holding onto hope for future generations.

Whitehead (26:51): "I think hopefully my kids 50 years from now will have a different idea, the same way that I have a different idea than my parents and grandparents."

He emphasizes the importance of storytelling in bringing these dark chapters of history to light, ensuring that the atrocities are neither forgotten nor repeated.

Adaptation into Film

The Nickel Boys has been adapted into a film directed by Romel Ross, featuring Ethan Hawke and Brandon Wilson. Whitehead discusses the challenges and responsibilities of translating such a sensitive and impactful narrative to the screen, ensuring that the essence of the survivors' stories remains intact.

Whitehead (17:55): "All those tiny details have stayed with the people, you know, for decades and decades. And they can still hear it and still feel it and hear it in their very bones."

Conclusion

Throughout the interview, Colson Whitehead offers profound insights into the making of The Nickel Boys, blending meticulous research with empathetic storytelling. His dedication to illuminating the injustices of the past serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of accountability and the enduring struggle for equality. As the novel transitions to film, it continues to amplify the voices of those who endured unimaginable hardships, fostering a deeper understanding of America's complex history.

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For more in-depth discussions and updates on Fresh Air, subscribers are encouraged to visit plus.npr.org/freshair and sign up for the Fresh Air Weekly newsletter at www.whyy.org/freshair.

Transcript

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[Dave Davies]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. In 2019, Colson Whitehead landed on the COVID of Time magazine next to a caption that called him America's storyteller. He's earned that honor over the course of nine novels that have ranged from wry speculative fiction to zombie apocalypse to sobering historical fiction, all of them in various ways considering the topic of race in America. His 2016 novel the Underground Railroad was adapted into an Amazon TV series directed by Barry Jenkins, who directed moonlight and if Beale street could talk. Whitehead's 2019 novel the Nickel Boys has been adapted into a film of the same name, now in theaters. It's based on the true story of the now closed Doier School for boys in Florida where former students have reported being brutally beaten or sexually abused. The central character of Whitehead's book is Elwood, a hard working, college bound African American high school student who believes in the promise of the civil rights movement. Here's a clip from the film directed by Romel Ross. Elwood, played by Ethan Harisi, is speaking to Turner, a fellow schoolmate played by Brandon Wilson. Elwood has just been beaten by the school staff after he intervened to help a student being attacked by a bully.

[Colson Whitehead]

If everybody looks the other way, then everybody's in on it. If I look the other way, I'm as implicated as the rest. It's not how it's supposed to be.

[Carvana Ad]

Don't nobody care about supposed to.

[Colson Whitehead]

The fix has always been in Game's rigged.

[Dave Davies]

Colson Whitehead, welcome back to FRESH air. It's good to have you. And the book is remarkable. I thought we would begin with a reading. I mean, your book is about some students at this thing that's called the Trevor Nickel Academy. Thus the Nickel Boys is the book. But it's based on the story of the Dozier School in the Panhandle of Florida, which is now closed and where many abuses were discovered. This is a reading about a group of ex students. Right? Just set it up for us.

[Colson Whitehead]

Sure. It's about 2014 and the school's been closed for a couple years and people who'd been there in the 50s and 60s and 70s have started a survivors group and they meet once a year and check out their old haunted place. The annual reunion, now in its fifth year, was strange and necessary. The boys were old men now with wives and ex wives and children. They did or didn't talk to, with wary grandchildren who were brought around sometimes and those whom they were prevented from seeing, they had managed to scrape up a life after leaving Nickel or had never fit in at all with normal people. The last smokers of cigarette brands you never see late to the self help regimens, always on the verge of disappearing, dead in prison or decomposing in rooms they rented by the week, frozen to death in the woods after drinking turpentine. The men met in the conference room of the Eleanor Garden Inn to catch up before caravanning out to Nicol for the solemn tour. Some years you felt strong enough to head down that cement walkway, knowing that it led to one of your bad places. And some years you didn't avoid a building or stare it in the face, depending on your reserves that morning.

[Dave Davies]

And that is Colson Whitehead reading from his new book, the Nickel Boys. This school really changed people's lives, didn't it?

[Colson Whitehead]

For some people, it was a very traumatic place. Not everyone who went through Dozier ended up being abused. You know, there are 600 students going through it each year, and that would be a tragedy on a catastrophic scale. But for its 110 years of existence, there are many stories of sexual abuse, physical abuse, and even murder. They found some unmarked graves on the grounds, and that's when the sort of investigation of what actually happened at Dozer happened.

[Dave Davies]

Your last book, the Underground Railroad, which won the National Book Award and the Pulitzer Prize, was a look at slavery. What made you want to write about Dozier, about this school?

[Colson Whitehead]

I didn't want to. I felt sort of compelled to. You know, I came across a story of the school. In 2014, they wanted to sell the property, the state of Florida did, and they started exhuming the official graveyard. And then they found a lot of unmarked graves. And some archaeology students started excavating the unmarked graves and trying to ID different students who'd been there. And the story stayed with me. You know, if there's one place like this, there are many places, and maybe it's a reformed school, it's an orphanage. Talking to some folks in Canada, they talked about residential schools there where indigenous kids were taken from their families and put in schools to learn about white culture. And the same kind of abuse happened. And it seemed if the story hadn't been told, someone needed to tell it.

[Dave Davies]

And how did you research the subject? Did you go down and visit Dossier?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, I was on Twitter, where I often am. That's where I first came across the news report and then immediately started, you know, searching. And Ben Montgomery from the Tampa Bay Times had covered the story for years. So there are a lot of. There's a lot of Florida coverage, not a lot of national coverage. When I started writing, there's some memoirs. There's a survivor site called the White House Boys. And people who'd been there in the 50s and 60s had written down some of their stories of being there. And then online, there are a lot of photo archives. And you can see the White House where the kids were beaten. You can see the dormitories and the administration buildings. And it all looks very nice. It's. It's a very beautiful campus. And then once you hear about it, your idea about it definitely changes.

[Dave Davies]

But you didn't feel the need to go there.

[Colson Whitehead]

I intended to go. I liked research. Whenever I travel for a book, I always feel like I'm earning a real writer badge or something. And I figured I'd go down there after I got halfway through the book. And then the deeper I got in and the more I wrote about Elwood and Turner, my two main characters, the more I sense a real. I had a sense of real physical dread and anger thinking about the place. And then I realized I was not gonna go. And if I was gonna go, it would be with some dynamite or a bulldozer. I think it's an evil place, and I'm not sure if I'll ever go there.

[Dave Davies]

So how did you get the texture of the place to write about it?

[Colson Whitehead]

You know, I'm not a zombie hunter or a runaway slave or an elevator inspector. Generally, I enjoy things you have written about and other books, and I do enough research to feel grounded and really eager to start working. And that's when I know I have enough to keep going. And then, like any writer, fiction writer, you know, I use my empathy and imagination, what I know about myself and other people, to make it real.

[Dave Davies]

How did kids get into a school like Dozier? What sort of offenses or circumstances would cause them to be sent to this place?

[Unknown]

Sure.

[Colson Whitehead]

The idea behind a place was, you know, it was very enlightened. In the mid-19th century, reformers tried to think of how they could prevent juvenile offenders from being criminalized. You don't want to lock them up with adult offenders. So a reform school where you get classes one day and learn a skill the next day, work in a farm, make something, build with their hands, you might be reformed immediately. When the school started opening, there were stories of abuse. It opened in 1900, and in 1903, people were complaining about what was Going on. The school was leasing students to local businesses. And the people who were there weren't all juvenile delinquents. They were orphans and wards of the state. If they had nowhere else to go, they'd put you there. And the charges for the so called offenders were truancy, graffiti, vandalism, these sort of amorphous quality of life crimes.

[Dave Davies]

Right. In a lot of cases, kids who just ran away because they came from places where they were abused or unwanted.

[Colson Whitehead]

What they used to call broken homes. Yeah. And so it was a warehouse for people who had nowhere else to go if you were under 18.

[Dave Davies]

So the teenager, well, the young man who is at the heart of our story, Elwood, isn't a kid who has come from an abusive home. Do you want to just talk about this character and why he's the kind of kid you wanted to let take us into this school?

[Colson Whitehead]

Sure. His name is Elwood Curtis. He's a straight A student being raised by his grandparents. You know, has a job after school working in a tobacco store, wants to go to college. And he's grown up idolizing Martin Luther King and all the lights of the civil rights movement. He reads Life magazine every week and sees the updates on the boycotts and protests and sit ins and sees himself as a part of this new generation that's going to change America, you know, bit by bit.

[Dave Davies]

And we should just note, he's in Tallahassee, Florida, in the Jim Crow south in the late 50s, early 60s. Right.

[Colson Whitehead]

The book opens in the 50s, the main action is in 63. And so he's actually lived in an era where things actually are moving slowly, slowly forward. He hitches a ride with the wrong person, it's a stolen car and gets sent to nickel. And for me, it's a way in. For my experience. I've been stopped by police for no reason. I've been handcuffed and interrogated. I think most young people of color have been stopped by police in this way. And he makes a wrong turn and he's in the wrong place at the wrong time. And I think for many people, for many people of color, we can relate to suddenly having your life being able to change at any second.

[Dave Davies]

So what happened when you were pulled over in handcuffs? What happened?

[Colson Whitehead]

I was a junior in high school and I was with some friends. We were in a supermarket and suddenly there was a white cop saying, put your hands behind, behind you. He put handcuffs on me, took me out to the street to his squad car where there was a white woman in the backseat. She'd been mugged. And I guess I was the first black person, black teenager that came across. And luckily, she said that I was not the person who mugged her. And I happened to be minding my own business. And like many young people of color, you know, if I had shifted the wrong way, reached my wall at the wrong way, who knows what could have happened? And so that informs my idea of being in the world and how any second things can go awry. And I know I'm not alone in understanding that sort of menacing reality is always waiting there.

[Dave Davies]

Right? Right. Or you could be misidentified by somebody.

[Colson Whitehead]

Misidentified. And if she hadn't been in the back seat, would I have spent the night in the Tombs, the local New York jail? And once I'm there, who knows whether my life goes this way or that way. So that, you know, that opportunity for tragedy is always there, I think, when it comes for people between people of color and white law enforcement, and that's sort of our reality.

[Dave Davies]

Elwood is in high school in the early 60s when the Civil rights movement is really rolling. And he has a teacher, Mr. Hill, who's interested in this and kind of committed to the battle for civil rights. There was a very compelling moment when you described the first day of school when the kids in this segregated school get their textbooks. You want to share that with us?

[Colson Whitehead]

Sure. The kids in the black school across town get their secondhand books from the white school, which is well funded, as usually is the case. And the white students, knowing that their schoolbooks are going to the black part of town, write epithets, F U, the N word, for their black neighbors to enjoy when they open up the books on the first day of school. And Mr. Hill, Elwood's teacher, was the first person to say, you know, mark those out. They've taken the abuse for granted, you know, for a generation, year after year. And he and Mr. Hill, who's a freedom writer, is the first person who says, you're decent people. Scratch that out, and let's start. Let's make these books fresh.

[Dave Davies]

So Elwood, he is committed to the principles of the civil rights movement and looks forward to participating. What's his attitude towards, you know, the life ahead of him where he's got to deal with segregation and deal with a white power structure and limited opportunities. How does he conduct himself?

[Colson Whitehead]

You know, he's one of these very optimistic and idealistic sorts who thinks that if he wants to do it, he can do it. If you march, if you raise your voice, if you Stand up. You can change the world. And if you devote your energies, you can fight back the vast machinery arrayed against you. And so he sees himself going to college. He sees himself joining the nattily dressed people of SNCC and core, marching on Washington, doing sit ins, desegregating all the various venues. And his one big moment before he goes off to Dozier happens in the late school year when he protests the segregated movie theater in Tallahassee, which is a real protest, and they hand him a sign, they give him the slogans, and the white deputies and riff raff gaze upon them. The protesters stare, raise their fists, and it's this real sort of moment of the person he can actually be. He's a bit of a miracle, you know, he's an unlikely person. And I think I was struck when I was going back reading about Martin Luther King and the early civil rights struggle, how unlikely all those people were to believe that they could beat back 200 years of systematic oppression. And they did it sort of action by action. And so definitely I was writing. Elwood seemed like a very rare sort, but he was not alone. You know, he's part of a generation that really did change the country in an important way. Of course we slide back a bit, but they really did pull off miraculous things.

[Dave Davies]

So Elmwood, this optimistic young man, ends up in this reform school because he hitches a ride with a guy who happens to have stolen a car. He gets convicted of car theft and he's in this place. How do his values mesh with his, the experience that confronts him?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, you know, he's not there very long before he discovers that despite its beautiful exterior, things are quite off. He breaks up a fight between some big kids and a little kid. And his real initiation into the school is being taken to the White House. At the real dozer school, it was called the White House. It was a utility shed on campus that they started using for beatings. After a short lived reform, corporal punishment was outlawed. And so they took the boys in real life to this place called the White House. And it was too great a detail to change the name, that is. And the kids on campus at Dozier called it the ice cream factory because you came out with different bruises of every color. And so he breaks up this fight and nobody is really particularly concerned about who started it, who's trying to break it up. The guilty and innocent are punished equally. And that's an early lesson at Nickel Academy.

[Dave Davies]

You know, I thought we would listen to a piece of tape from an NPR report this is from 2012 reporter named Greg Allen. And it's based on his conversation with a guy who survived Dozier named Jerry Cooper. And what happened when he had committed some offense and was taken to the White House for some discipline. Um, let's listen. School staff got him out of bed at 2am one morning and took him.

[Colson Whitehead]

To the White House where he says.

[Dave Davies]

They threw him on a bed, tied his feet and began beating him with a leather strap. The first blow lifted me a foot.

[Unknown]

And a half off that bed.

[Colson Whitehead]

And every time that strap would come.

[Unknown]

Down, you could hear the shuffle on.

[Colson Whitehead]

The concrete because their shoes would slide and you know, you could hear the bam. Cooper passed out.

[Dave Davies]

But a boy in the next room later told him he counted 135 lashes. And that's from a report from NPR reporter Greg Allen about abuses at the Dozer school. The story has inspired the novel by our guest Colson Whitehead. It's called the Nickel Boys. That really is the way it happened, isn't it?

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah. The same details came up in a lot of different accounts. The they to muffle the sounds of the beatings and the screams, they had this huge industrial fan. And so if you heard the fan go on on the other side of campus, you knew what was happening. And that came up a lot. The sound of the leather strap hitting the ceiling before it came down upon your back was repeated a lot. And I talked to one man who said that when you heard the belt hit the ceiling, you knew the tense up to, you know, sort of diminish the blow. And so. And all those tiny details have stayed with the people, you know, for decades and decades. And they can still hear it and still feel it and hear it in their very bones.

[Dave Davies]

Right. And what would it do to your, to a student's back to get 100 of those kinds of lashes delivered with that kind of force?

[Colson Whitehead]

Sure, it breaks it open. And then another thing that came up a lot was the kids being beaten across the leg so much that their fibers of their genes are embedded in their skin not to get, I'm sorry, I'm being grisly. And then the doctor in the infirmary having to take tweezers and pluck them out. And, you know, more than one person related that detail. And so you see, it's a, you know, it's a bit of a factory, unfortunately.

[Dave Davies]

We're listening to my interview with Colson Whitehead. His novel the Nickel Boys has been adapted into a film of the same name in theaters. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Dave Davies and this is FRESH air.

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[Dave Davies]

So a lot of kids were beaten and there are a lot of stories about this. Do we believe that kids were murdered?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, there are kids in unmarked graves with blunt trauma to their skulls and gunshot pellets in their rib cages. And so how they get there? Teenagers buried in the ground with great evidence of violence. They didn't, you know, faint.

[Dave Davies]

Right. Or get the flu. Or get the flu. We should note that no one has been criminally accused of killing anybody there. Of course, a lot of this happened decades ago. And so the evidence isn't easy to acquire. And some of the perpetrators are now deceased. The kids did work and produced stuff. Was the school a source of profit for some local people?

[Colson Whitehead]

It was profitable for the state of Florida. You know, making those bricks and printing those pamphlets in the early days. They stopped it in the mid part of the century, I believe. But they would lease out students to local businesses, local farmers. Some of the kids did end up dead under mysterious circumstances. And then eventually, you know, whatever, state investigators put a stop to it. But that was sort of convict leasing for grownups was a big business. You're picked up for some minor infraction, vagrancy, and then the local deputy talking about the south and black people being sold by white deputies to mines, to farms. And in a sort of, I won't say indentured servitude because you could you're six months or a Year could be up and no one would tell you, and you'd be sort of stuck in the same way that there's no place for you to run. You know, once you're sort of in the system, you're embroiled and there's no place to go.

[Dave Davies]

There are quotes from Martin Luther King in the story because they come from this record that Elmwood loved to play. And one of them you quote a couple of times, and it's striking. It's in which King describes the, you know, nonviolent resistance and the importance of loving your oppressors. And kind of an abridged version of the quote is he says, you know, throw us in jail and we will love you. We will wear you down by our capacity to suffer. We will not only win freedom for ourselves, we will so appeal to your heart and conscience that we will win you in the process, and our victory will be a double victory. Tell me why that quote was something you wanted to use in the story.

[Colson Whitehead]

Sure. You know, one of the great things about research that you make a decision and it starts paying off. And in terms of having Elwood be an acolyte of the Civil Rights movement is that I had to pick speeches and different episodes that would inspire him. And so I had to go back to Martin Luther King's speeches and figure out which ones would fit Elwood, which ones would fit this part of the book. Once Elwood is tested at the Nickel Academy, he has to really live up to all these things he's believed. He's heard Martin Luther King talk about love and the oppressor. He's talking about suffering and rising above it and loving in the face of impossible odds. And it's really once he gets the nickel that Elwood has to think, can I do this? I mean, it's sort of ridiculous, but it's sort of what we have to do. And, you know, his real sort of struggle, the longer he spends at Nickel is having to finally put into concrete practice what he's been reading about. And perhaps he never imagined he'd have to prove himself so thoroughly as he does at Nickel.

[Dave Davies]

In the last part of the book, we meet some of the characters later in life. And I don't want to say more than that about it because would spoil it for readers, and they deserve to experience this. But I have to say the narrative structure here of how the course of their lives is revealed I think is pretty brilliant. And I wonder if you can, without giving away the story, just talk a little bit about how you decide to Reveal the outcomes.

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the majority of the book takes place in 63 and 64. And then we follow Elwood as he grows up and gets out of the nickel academy and moves to New York. And we see him in 1970s, and we see him in the 80s, the early part of this century. And so we see what sort of makes him as a man, and then we see the after effects of it. How do you come back from something as traumatic as being a nickel who makes a whole life decades later and who is perpetually victimized by their time there? Do you become addicted to drugs, an alcoholic? Can you find someone to love, make a family, keep a job? It's a few months out of his life, Elwood's young life, and then he has to spend the next couple of decades finding his way in the world. And I think whether you were in a place like Dozier, if you had a family catastrophe early on, any sort of disaster you bounce back from, you reckon with it. It changes you, and then it changes your world. And so that's where we find Elwood in his later chapters, is a man trying to find himself after this very formative few months.

[Dave Davies]

The book is a lot about the struggle between optimism, about social change and kind of a pragmatic acceptance of the world as it is. We're in some pretty turbulent times in this country these days. How optimistic are you for positive change?

[Colson Whitehead]

I find I feel better if I don't think about it. I don't know. This book comes out of feeling very desperate, feeling that in the last 60 years, we have made some toddler steps towards equality, and then, you know, we fall back. And that's been my sort of experience my whole life. We sort of make an advance, and then we go back to spaces. And, you know, my parents were basically Elwood's generation, and I can't imagine my grandparents or my parents raising their kids in a racist country and then seeing what. What has happened in the last 50 years. We have a black president. That's crazy. And then I think they'd be not surprised about swastikas being painted on synagogues and incarceration camps full of brown people at the border. So I guess my new line on hope is that I don't see a lot changing in my lifetime. I think hopefully my kids 50 years from now will have a different idea, the same way that I have a different idea than my parents and grandparents. But right now, I think we're pretty stuck, and I don't see things getting a lot better. Before they get worse.

[Dave Davies]

How old are your kids?

[Colson Whitehead]

5 and 14.

[Dave Davies]

So the older one especially is in a position to be aware of a lot of things.

[Colson Whitehead]

And she's like, super woke. You know, she's like, policing me on my super PC ness, which is sort of startling. And then a younger one, you know, I hope they start training early. You know, he's into cops and robbers, and so we raise an eyebrow and he'll say, you know, a police car will speed by, and he'll say, there's a cop going to stop a robber, and I'll have to step in and say, or an innocent person driving a car that the cop thinks is too fancy for him in the wrong neighborhood. That's the sort of early tutelage you get in the Whitehead household.

[Dave Davies]

While you were writing this book. I'm wondering, you know, what was happening in the country on race relations. I mean, a lot's happened in the last few years. I'm wondering what events might have informed your thinking as you were writing this.

[Colson Whitehead]

What made that first news report about Dozier indelible was the fact that it was the summer of 2014, and that was the summer Michael Brown was shot by a white policeman in Ferguson, Missouri. Eric Garner put in a chokehold by white policemen in Staten Island. And it's been a feature of my life that, you know, we had these high profile police brutality incidents, and we talk about police brutality for a few months and then stop until the next time it comes along. So that summer was so, you know, the fact that no one's ever held accountable, no one ever goes to jail, no one ever takes any responsibility, made me feel very raw. And I think that allowed the story of Dozer to sort of settle in there, settle in me. It was another example of just people who are powerless, people who have no defenses, being abused by an institution, and the guilty go free and innocent suffer.

[Dave Davies]

This is your ninth book and your last one, the Underground Railroad, won a National Book Award and the Pulitzer Prize, selected by Oprah Winfrey, which. Which I'm sure boosted sales a lot and gave it a much bigger profile. As you finished and published this book, did it feel like a completely different experience because of where your career is?

[Colson Whitehead]

Not so much because of the success of the Underground Railroad. You know, it seemed like a once in a lifetime kind of convergence of me doing what I set out to do and other people getting it. And it was quite lovely. But, you know, nine books in, you know, I've had books that, let's say people didn't appreciate or under appreciated and books that people sort of got. And then whether it goes well or crappily the last time, you always have to start with the blank page. And, you know, I switch genres a lot, and I'm always trying to figure out different ways of telling stories. And so that challenge is always there. I'm writing a short, realistic book about something that actually happened. This book is fantastic. This book is a nonfiction book about poker. And so I was in a good mood for a year. And then you get back to work and it's as crappy as it ever was.

[Dave Davies]

Is it true you had to sign 15,000 copies of this one?

[Colson Whitehead]

They asked me to, and I said yes because I could have said no, but a lot of independent bookstores had asked for them and they'd been so supportive over 20 years that how could I say no? And so I went to the big Random House warehouse outside Baltimore and for three days signed 15,000 copies of the Nickel Boys. And it was not my arm that hurt, it was my neck. I had a weird cramp. But I still have like a month later. And a massage has been suggested, but I haven't done it yet.

[Dave Davies]

All right. Well, congratulations on the book. Colson Whitehead, it's been great to have you back. Thanks so much.

[Colson Whitehead]

Thank you. See you next time.

[Dave Davies]

Novelist Colson Whitehead, his novel the Nickel Boys has been adapted into a film, now in theaters. Whitehead won the National Book Award and the Pulitzer Prize for his previous novel, the Underground Railroad, which which was adapted into a miniseries of the same name by Barry Jenkins. After we take a short break, guest jazz critic Martin Johnson will review a new recording featuring two of the giants of jazz, McCoy Tyner and Joe Henderson, in concert in 1966. This is FRESH AIR. Wait, wait, don't tell me. Fresh air up first, NPR News. Now Planet Money, TED Radio Hour throughline the NPR Politics podcast Code Switch Embedded books we love Wild Card are just some of the podcasts you can enjoy. Sponsor free with NPR. Plus, get all sorts of perks across more than 20 podcasts with the bundle option. Learn more at plus.npr.org On NPR's Wildcard podcast, comedian Michelle Buteau says she's glad.

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She ignored the people who told her to lose weight.

[Unknown]

I'm just going to show you what it looks like to love my body, my double chin, my extra rolls. Okay. My buckets of thighs. Sauce on the side. You can't afford it.

[Colson Whitehead]

I'm Rachel Martin.

[Dave Davies]

Michelle Buteau is on the Wild Card podcast, the show where cards control the conversation. Mention of the label Blue Note records will evoke a sound familiar to most jazz fans pristine, warm, as if the greatest musicians of the 60s were playing in your living room. Yet very few live recordings exist of the stars from the label's golden era. But that's been changing. A new recording features two giants of jazz, McCoy Tyner and Joe Henderson in concert from 1966. Guest jazz critic Martin Johnson says you can hear jazz changing in several ways.

[Unknown]

Throughout the history of jazz there have been many famous duo collaborators Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis and John Coltrane, Duke Ellington and Billy Strayhorn, just to name three. And I'm sure avid jazz fans can add many more without a second thought. The partnership of pianist McCoy Tyner and saxophonist Joe Henderson may not be on the same level of those legends, but they did vital work together in the 60s. McCoy appeared on three of Henderson's first four recordings as a leader, and the saxophonist returned the favor on Tyner's the Real McCoy, his debut recording for Blue Note and one of his best loved albums on the recently released Forces of Nature. You can hear their potent mix ignite in a New York landmark for great jazz in the 60s and 70s, the gritty long gone club known as Slugs. It's the tune in and Out Out. Henderson is one of the greats of the post war tenor saxophone, but in the mid-60s he's the youngest member of that crowd. You can hear John Coltrane's thunderous emotions, Sonny Rollins lean passion for playful melody and Wayne Shorter's naughty complexity. Henderson synthesized these influences into a unique sound when paired with Tyner, who had recently completed a five year stint with Coltrane, he found the perfect foil. Hear how the pianist stops framing the sax solo and pushes Henderson on In and out. By 1966 Tyner had redefined the role of the pianist as an accompanist, and that shines in this concert. But he also asserts a tender facility with ballads. On We'll Be Together Again, he poignantly captures the sense of 1966 is a pivotal time for jazz, and the music here shows mainstream jazz incorporating the open structures proposed by the avant garde wing while remaining in a straight ahead vein. The uptempo tunes are urgent and forceful. It's like the change from a comfortable drive in the city to a skittering race on a country road. That's the tune taking off. The recording features an ace rhythm section, bassist Henry Grimes, who was better known for his work with free jazz stalwarts and drummer Jack DeJeanette. And it's the drummer who's responsible for the recording's existence. He had an engineer tape the event, and it was in his home archive. He rediscovered it a few years ago and set plans in motion for the release. Dijonnet is only 23 years old here and still very much in the throes of contemporary greats like Coltrane drummer Elvin Jones. But you can hear a distinctive voice emerging on these tracks. He would go on to play with Miles Davis, Keith Jarrett and build a formidable discography as a leader. Here's the believer. The music here is a prelude to iconic records by each leader. A few months after the concert, Joe Henderson recorded Mode for Joe, one of his most beloved 60s discs, and Tyner recorded his album the Real McCoy, his first for Blue Note and one of his best. After that, the two rarely work together again, making this document a winding down of a valuable alliance.

[Dave Davies]

Martin Johnson writes about jazz for the Wall street journal. He reviews McCoy, Tyner and Joe Henderson. Force of Nature Live at Slugs Coming up, film critic Justin Chang reviews Mike Lee's new film Hard Truths. This is FRESH AIR. In 1997, Marianne Jean Baptiste became the first black British actress to receive an Oscar nomination for Mike Lee's drama Secrets and Lies. Now, nearly 30 years later, she and Lee have reunited on the comedic drama Hard Truths, in which she plays a profoundly unhappy woman living in north London. The performance has earned Jean Baptiste Best Actress prizes from several critics groups. Our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

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In the many beautifully observed working class dramedies he's made over the past five decades, the British writer and director Mike Lee has returned again and again to one simple yet endlessly resonant question. Why are some people happy while others are not? Why does Nicola, the sullen 20something in Lee's 1990 film Life is Sweet, seem incapable of even a moment's peace or pleasure? By contrast, how does Poppy, the upbeat heroine of Lee's 2008 comedy Happy Go Lucky, manage to greet every misfortune with a smile? Lee's new movie, Hard Truths could have been titled Unhappy Go Lucky. It follows a middle aged north London misanthrope named Pansy, who's played in the single greatest performance I've seen this year by Marianne Jean Baptiste. You might know Jean Baptiste from Lee's wonderful 1996 film Secrets and Lies, in which she played a shy, unassuming London optometrist seeking out her birth mother. But there's nothing unassuming about Pansy, who leads a life of seething, unrelenting misery. She spends most of her time indoors Barking orders and insults at her solemn husband Curtly and their unemployed 22 year old son, Moses. Pansy keeps a spotless home, but the blank walls and sparse furnishings are noticeably devoid of warmth, cheer or personality. When she isn't cleaning, she's trying to catch up on sleep, complaining about aches, pains and exhaustion. Sometimes she goes out to shop or run errands, only to wind up picking fights with the people she meets. A dentist, a salesperson, a stranger in a parking lot. Back at home, she unloads on Curtly and Moses about all the indignities she's been subjected to and the general idiocy of the world around her.

[Unknown]

And then round the corner with that dog, got it dressed up in a red coat and green booties. Why's the dog got on a coat? It's got fur in it. Must be sweating under there, stinking. That's cruelty to animals that is. Putting it under all that plastic. I've got a mind to report him to the NSPCG or whatever they call them. And her over there with that fat baby. Cold, cold, cold. And she's walking up and down the street with nothing but a big pink bow on its bald head so everybody can tell it's a girl. Like I care. Parading it around in the little outfit. Not dressed for the weather? Nah. With pockets. What's a baby got pockets for? What's it gonna keep in its pocket? A knife? It's ridiculous.

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As you can hear from that virtuoso rant, Pansy has an insult comedian's ferocious wit and killer timing. While you wouldn't necessarily want to bump into her on the street, she makes for mesmerizing, even captivating, on screen company. Lee is often described as a Dickensian filmmaker and for good reason. He's a committed realist with a gift for comic exaggeration. Like nearly all Lee's films, hard truths emerge from a rigorous months long workshop process in which the director worked closely with his actors to create their characters from scratch. As a result, Jean Baptiste's performance, electrifying as it is, is also steeped in emotional complexity. The more time we spend with Pansy, the more we see that her rage against the world arises from deep loneliness and pain. Lee has little use for plot. He builds his stories from the details and detritus of everyday life, drifting from one character to the next. Twain Barrett is quietly heartbreaking as Pansy's son Moses, who isolates himself and spends his time either playing video games or going on long neighborhood walks. Pansy's husband Curtly is harder to parse. He's played by the terrific David Webber, with a passivity that's both sympathetic and infuriating. The most significant supporting character is Pansy's younger sister Chantel, played by the luminous Michelle Austin. Another Secrets and Lies alum, Chantelle could scarcely be more different from her sister. She's a joyous, contented woman with two adult daughters of her own, and she does everything she can to break through to Pansy. In the movie's most affecting scene, Chantel drags her sister to a cemetery to pay their respects to their mother, whose sudden death five years ago, we sense is at the core of Pansy's unhappiness. At the same time, Lee doesn't fill in every blank. He's too honest a filmmaker to offer up easy explanations for why people feel the way they feel. His attitude toward Pansy and toward all the prickly, outspoken, altogether marvelous characters he's given us is best expressed in that graveside scene when Chantal wraps her sister in a tight hug and tells her with equal parts exasperation and affection, I don't understand you, but I love you.

[Dave Davies]

Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker. He reviewed Mike Lee's new film Hard Truths. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram nprfreshair. On Monday's show, President elect Donald Trump will be sworn in for a second term in the White House House on Martin Luther King Day. We'll speak with scholars Tressy McMillan Cottam and Eddie Glaud to talk about what lies ahead and the legacy of Dr. King. I hope you can join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Thea Chaloner. Our technical director and engineer is Andre Bentham, with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld and Al Banks. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C V Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show for Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley. I'm Dave David.