Loading summary
Transcript85 lines
- [00:01]
Terry Gross
This is FRESH air. I'm Terry Gross. Stephen Sondheim once described himself as an austere revolutionary. His musicals, the music, the lyrics, the stories were both more complex and more subtle than their predecessors. After Alan J. Lerner, who wrote the lyrics for My Fair Lady, Brigadoon and Camelot, saw Sondheim's groundbreaking 1970 musical company, he broke into tears and told his wife, my way of writing musicals is over. It's no exaggeration to say Sondheim was a genius. Geniuses are often complicated people with complicated personalities, and Sondheim was no exception. Perhaps the most difficult relationship in his life was with his mother, who could be cold and even verbally cruel. That seems to have influenced Sondheim's personality in the themes of some of his shows. In the new book Stephen Art Isn't Easy, my guest Daniel Okrent offers insights into Sondheim's life and music based on access to his letters, archives, oral history, as well as the 36 hours of interviews that Meryl Seacrest did for her 1998 biography of him and Okrent's own interviews with many people who knew him. Okrent has worked as a book and magazine editor and was the first public editor for the New York Times. He's the author of previous books about Prohibition, baseball and how eugenics and bigotry shaped anti immigration. Stephen Sondheim got his start on Broadway writing lyrics for Gypsy and West side Story. He went on to write music and lyrics for such shows as A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, Follies, Merrily We Roll Along, Sweeney Todd, Sunday in the Park With George, into the woods and Passion. Daniel Okrent, welcome back to FRESH air. It's great to have you back.
- [01:51]
Daniel Okrent
I'm very happy to be here.
- [01:53]
Terry Gross
I I want to start with you choosing a song, and I'd like it to be a song that you heard something new in as a result of all the research that you did for this new Sondheim book.
- [02:05]
Daniel Okrent
Well, epiphany, this horrifying and overwhelming song near the end of Sweeney Todd, I had listened to and been impressed by I don't know how many scores of times, but when I was doing the research and listening carefully, that's when I realized that everything we've heard before in that show comes back in very brief snatches in that one song. It's all tied together in a way that is powerfully effective without the listener knowing why it's so effective.
- [02:38]
Terry Gross
And this is a song where Sweeney Todd, who is seeking revenge against the judge, the that locked him up and then stole his wife and then is trying to marry Sweeney's daughter.
- [02:56]
Daniel Okrent
Right. He steals his wife. Well, he steals his wife and discards her and wounds her permanently.
- [03:02]
Terry Gross
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Sweeney ends up killing her because now she's homeless and has gone mad and she's just, like, in his way. So, yeah. Anyhow, so here's the song, and it's one of my very, very favorite of all Sondheim's pieces. And this is my favorite show of his. And it's a really like. His desire for revenge is just, like, overflowing and he wants to. Everybody's unworthy and they all deserve to die that's the refrain. They all deserve to die so here it is.
- [03:39]
Singer/Performer
There's a hole in the world Like a great black pit that is filled with people who are filled with and the vermin of the world inhabit it but not for long. They all deserve to die tell your why, Mrs. Love tell you why because in all of the whole human race, Mrs. Lovett There are two kinds of men and only two there's the one staying put in his proper place and the one with his foot in the other one's place look at me, Mrs. Levitt look at you Though we all deserve tell you why, Mrs. Love and tell you why because the lives of the wicked should be made brief for the rest of us death will be a relief we all deserve to die and I'll never see Joanna no, I'll never.
- [04:37]
Terry Gross
So that's Epiphany from Stephen Sondheim's Sweeney Todd. And something I found really fascinating about your book is that there's this recurring chord in Sweeney Todd that's a real horror movie kind of chord, like old horror movie. And he knew that chord from a Bernard Herman score from a 1945 film, Hangover Square. And so I went to that movie, which I've never seen, but watched the scene where the concert pianist, who is having a breakdown and is murdering people, is at the piano playing this very dizzying piece and strikes that chord several times.
- [05:26]
Daniel Okrent
It was a chord that the very young Stephen Sondheim, he was a teenager, heard, and he just fell in love with that chord and he went back to see the movie again because he wanted to be able to retain that chord and be able to use it for his own purposes. Now, he was not yet a composer at that point, but he was an incipient composer. And, in fact, that chord that he called the Hermann chord shows up in his work and shows up particularly in Sweeney Todd. I believe three times.
- [05:55]
Terry Gross
So let's just hear a little bit of the music from the concert piece that's being played. It's, you know, with that chord in the Bernard Herman score because, you know, the pianist is performing on when he's having the breakdown and we hear that chord. So that was an excerpt where what Stephen Sondheim called the Bernard Herman chord is heard in. It's from the movie Hangover Square. I think Sondheim had denied that Sweeney Todd was about revenge or his own desire for revenge. And you found something in your research that relates to that. Would you explain?
- [07:16]
Daniel Okrent
Sure. In an interview that he gave to his first biographer, Meryl SEACREST, Back in 1996, Sondheim described the day that Judy Prince came over to hear some of the songs, the beginning songs of Sweeney Todd. She was his closest friend, his self acknowledged muse, and she often would do this. He would play them for her before anybody else. So she came over. He had told her before that that it was a horror show. It was going to be, you know, spined Tingler. And so she comes over to his house and he plays a few of the first songs and she stops him two songs into it and says, this isn't, you know, fun with horror. This is the story of your life. And as Sondheim reported it, he said, it never occurred to me, but of course it is now in the secrest book. We don't know what the story of his life is, but I was able to determine through a couple sources, but primarily Judy Prince, who never gave interviews, that in fact it was about revenge.
- [08:27]
Terry Gross
And you write that his psychiatrist, Milton Horowitz, wrote papers on revenge and on revenge and masochism. And Horowitz connects revenge to deep loneliness and the need to connect, which you can also relate to Sondheim.
- [08:42]
Daniel Okrent
Yeah, there are two major arcs to his life. One is from absolute alienation to finally, near the end of his life connection. The other is from an ambivalence that could be crippling at times to resolution, to knowing who he was and what he was capable of doing. But it took 50 years for him to move from one of those poles to the next one.
- [09:06]
Terry Gross
So in terms of Sweeney being about revenge and people thinking it's autobiographical in some way, not the murder part, but just about revenge. Sondheim said, the difference between Sweeney and me is that I turned it into art.
- [09:22]
Daniel Okrent
I think that's a sentence that says a great deal about his entire career and his entire life, that through his music and his lyrics, he was able to express Things that he could not, for various forms of inhibition, express. Otherwise, it was where, if it's not autobiographical, obviously he's not slitting throats, obviously, you know, he's not Georges Seurat, obviously, he's not in the woods and into the woods. But the feelings expressed in those shows all come from inside of him, I think, very, very clearly.
- [09:59]
Terry Gross
And I think it's in a smaller way inside all of us that we get angry, that we want to get back at someone, and we don't necessarily act on it, you know, but it's just. I love that show so much, and there's a part of me, you know, I'm fairly inhibited myself, but there's a part of me that, like, I suppress certain feelings. And you just, like, relate to all the feelings in that show.
- [10:31]
Daniel Okrent
Absolutely. And it's the inhibitions that keep us from expressing those feelings was something that he attacked.
- [10:40]
Terry Gross
And that's not a bad thing, necessarily.
- [10:42]
Daniel Okrent
No, socially, it's a very good thing to do. And sometimes when he was in a bad mood, he would let them out socially. But mostly it came through in his songs. And one of the things that's very important to know about Sondheim that enabled him to bring them out in his songs, those feelings were the disinhibiting effects of alcohol and drugs. And alcohol particularly, was something that he consumed in great quantities. His collaborators said, you know, it didn't impair his ability to work, but he would drink all day long. Marijuana, cocaine for a period, but mostly alcohol. Great, great quantities of alcohol. The cabaret performer Michael Feinstein reported about having his assistant call Sondheim when Sondheim was coming to dinner at Feinstein's house and ask if there was anything particularly that he would like at dinner. And Sondheim replied, according to Feinstein, vodka, vodka and more vodka. And there are dozens of other incidents and moments where the alcohol is so visibly a tool that he uses to make it through his work and, I think, through his life.
- [12:01]
Terry Gross
So I want to ask you about a letter, a letter that's very famous to Sondheim fans that you learned more about. Describe the letter as Sondheim described it, and then described the letter that was actually written. This was a letter from his mother, and they had a very complicated and very stressful relationship with each other, which we'll get into after we hear about the letter.
- [12:30]
Daniel Okrent
In the late 1970s, his mother, known as Foxy, that was her nickname, wrote him a letter, the content of which he revealed in an interview with the New York Times in 1994, in which he said, in the letter, my mother said, the only thing I regret in life is giving birth to you. Now, that's a kind of a powerful statement, and that kind of explains the. Or at least measures the intensity of his negative feelings about his mother. And it's a story that he, from that point, told over and over and over again. All the Sondheads, as we sometimes are known as those people who really know everything about him or want to know everything about him. We all know this letter. He referred to it so frequently. I found, however, in the Mary Rogers papers. Mary Rogers was his lifelong friend, daughter of Richard Rogers. He sent her what he said was a copy of the letter he had written to his mother when he received that. And so letter in which he says, I never want anything to do with you again. This is just the end of our relationship. But in that letter, which he represents to his oldest friend as the accurate version of the letter that he had sent in 1978, she doesn't say, I regret giving birth to you. She says, the only guilt I have is giving birth to you. And there's a mile of distance between guilt and regret.
- [14:07]
Terry Gross
There's two ways I can interpret guilt. One is that she knew she wasn't meant to be a mother and she feels guilty that she was such a bad mother. But the more obvious interpretation is she gave birth to a monster and she feels guilty about that, that she unleash this miserable person on the world.
- [14:27]
Daniel Okrent
Oh, that's interesting. I go the opposite direction. I like your first version better. I don't see any evidence that she felt that she had unleashed a monster on the world, even in her bitterest expressions to him.
- [14:45]
Terry Gross
So there's a song in Company that seems to be related to his mother, and it's Ladies who Lunch sung by Elaine Stritch. What's the connection?
- [14:58]
Daniel Okrent
Well, in fact, it is about his mother, in a way. She was a socialite. She liked to be around famous people, and she liked to eat nearly. Not every day, but certainly every week at the 21 Club, where all the stylish people of the era would go and she would go with friends who were in show business or not. These were the ladies who lunched. They were the subject of that song, and they were the object of his distaste. I don't think that Sondheim was aiming at anybody else but his mother, but he was thinking of this group of women when he wrote that coruscating, acidic and hilarious song.
- [15:38]
Terry Gross
So let's hear it. This is Ladies who Lunch from his musical company.
- [15:42]
Singer/Performer
Here's to the girls who stay smart. Aren't they a guess?
- [15:49]
Terry Gross
Rushing to their classes in optical art Wishing it would pass.
- [15:59]
Singer/Performer
Another long, exhausting day Another thousand dollars. A matinee, a Pinter play, Perhaps a piece of Mahler's.
- [16:15]
Terry Gross
I'll drink to that.
- [16:19]
Singer/Performer
And one for Mahler. Here's to the girls who play wife.
- [16:26]
Terry Gross
That was Ladies who Lunch from the Stephen Sondheim Musical Company. So let's continue talking about the relationship between Sondheim and his mother. Although they had a pretty toxic relationship much of the time, his mother was friends with Oscar Hammerstein's wife, and Sondheim was friends with the Hammerstein son. So when the Hammersteins moved to a farm in Pennsylvania, his mother and Stephen Sondheim moved nearby, and Hammerstein became Sondheim's mentor. And Hammerstein wasn't mean to Sondheim, but he could be very blunt in his.
- [17:04]
Daniel Okrent
Well, he was direct with them. I think that Oscar, as he must be known Oskar, was the most important male figure in his life. Oscar dies when Sondheim is just about 30. But for those 30 years, there was no one he was closer with and no one for whom he had more regard. And worth saying he didn't have regard for Hammerstein's work as a lyricist, even though Hammerstein was at that point the most prominent and successful lyricist on Broadway. But as a. As a nurturing personality, he valued him immensely. And part of the nurturing that Oscar brought to the relationship was to be frank with him. So that when the young Steve is trying to write music or write a play, Oscar would be very direct with him. He said, sorry, this is no good. You're trying to pretend you're somebody other than you are. Write what you know, write what you think. And those were the lessons that Sondheim cherished for the rest of his life.
- [18:05]
Terry Gross
And one of the first things Sondheim showed Hammerstein when Sondheim was still pretty young. Hammerstein's response to it was, this is really terrible. I'm not saying you're not talented. You are, but this is terrible, right?
- [18:22]
Daniel Okrent
And Sondheim's glad for that. It's the same thing shows up when he's at college, at Williams, when he's studying music with the composer Milton Babbitt. He wants the criticism. He relishes the criticism. But that happened only in the intimacy of personal or professional relationships. Criticism from the outside. Most creative people, certainly most creative people in the theater that I know, are very wary of Leery of and displeased by critics, but not to the degree that Stephen Sondheim was. He despised critics. There were exceptions, but mostly he demeaned critics. His first music and lyrics show was the enormous success A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the forum in 1962, I believe it was. Recalling that experience of a show that was a gigantic hit, he wrote to a friend to say how it was the most bitter experience that he had ever had as a composer, as a writer or as a theater person. The critics took me out and they trounced me and dragged me through the mud and they beat the hell out of me. And in fact, if you go back and read the reviews of A Funny Thing Happened Underway to the Forum, there was one pan, the critic for the World Telegram and Son, you know, really slashed it and demeaned it and said, you know, this would have been a lousy score in the 1930s. But other than that, it got good reviews, it got very positive respect for his music, and this was the first time his music had been performed on Broadway. But his memory of the experience just two years later was one of being horribly mistreated by critics.
- [20:05]
Terry Gross
We need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Daniel Okrent. His new book is called Stephen Art Isn't Easy. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.
- [20:16]
FRESH air Producer/Announcer
This message comes from Grammarly. From emails and reports to proposals, work today demands clear thinking and confident communication. 90% of professionals say Grammarly has saved them time writing and editing their work. It helps simplify complex ideas so your message lands clearly and quickly. This is AI that works with you, not over you. In a world of generic, AI don't sound like everyone else. With Grammarly, you never will. Download Grammarly for free@Grammarly.com hi, this is Molly. Sivi Nesberg, digital producer at FRESH air.
- [20:51]
Terry Gross
And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter, and I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly picks, timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.
- [21:06]
FRESH air Producer/Announcer
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week.
- [21:10]
Terry Gross
An exclusive, so subscribe@whyy.org fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. After Oscar Hammerstein died, Sondheim collaborated for one show called Do I Hear a Waltz? With Richard Rodgers, who was Hammerstein's longtime songwriting partner, with Rogers writing the music and Hammerstein writing the lyrics. So I want to play something from Do I Hear a Waltz? Because just the whole idea of Sondheim and Richard Rodgers collaborating is interesting. We should hear an example of the music. The only song that caught on from there was Do I Hear a Waltz? Which, as I recall, I heard people do on, like, the Ed Sullivan show and on the radio. Do you want to choose one?
- [21:58]
Daniel Okrent
Yeah. No, I think your instinct is right. You know, we remember Do I Hear a Waltz? Because that song became a very big hit and was sung by many, many other popular singers of the era. And even. Even since then, it was also a very. This is not to demean Rogers at all. He was a great composer, but it was very much easy listening. It was something. A kind of music that could be popular. Yeah, let's play it.
- [22:21]
Terry Gross
Okay, here it is. And the singer is Elizabeth Allen.
- [22:33]
Singer/Performer
Do I hear a waltz? Very odd, but I hear a waltz. There isn't a band and I don't understand it at all. I can't hear a waltz. Oh, my Lord, There it goes again. Why is nobody dancing in the street? Can't they hear the beat? Magical, mystical miracle can it be? Is it true Things are impossibly lyrical Is it me? No, it's you.
- [23:17]
Terry Gross
That was Elizabeth Allen singing the title song from the original cast recording of Do I Hear a Waltz, a collaboration between composer Richard Rogers and Stephen Sondheim wrote the lyrics. So in getting back to talking about Sondheim's life, he knew he was gay, but you couldn't really come out then, not even on Broadway, where, like, so many of the directors and writers and composers and lyricists were gay and the audience as well. But you couldn't be out because that's how it was. So it seems to me from your book that he really tried to be straight because he just couldn't be out. Then.
- [24:01]
Daniel Okrent
I think he gave it a shot. I think it wasn't that he made a. A valiant effort to do it. But, see, let's see if this is a possibility. And he did not come out publicly, really, for. Well, it's the middle to late 70s. Not that anybody was asking that much in those days. Certainly all the people who knew him, people in his social world, they knew he was gay. He knew he was gay. He did not think it was a defining aspect of his life. He didn't want to be, as it were, typecast.
- [24:31]
Singer/Performer
He.
- [24:31]
Daniel Okrent
He wasn't a gay composer. He was a composer, and his private life was something completely separate.
- [24:38]
Terry Gross
Did his attitude change when he found the Person who became his spouse.
- [24:44]
Daniel Okrent
Well, his attitude begins to change when he falls in love with a 21 year old. And Sondheim's. At this point in his early 60s, an incipient or aspiring songwriter named Peter Jones. He meets this young man and it's head over heels. That's when he wrote Passion. That's when he wrote his only unironic play. That's when he wrote his only unironic musical. That's the time that he wrote a show that was about exposing one's love. He had never done that before. Now the characters in Passion are heterosexual. It's a man and a woman. But there's no question this came out of this changed experience of finding someone to fall in love with. He had had serial relationships with many, many men over the years, but this was the one that clicked. And then after that, ran its course. Although they remained friends. In the early 2000s, he met Jeff Romley, whom he fell deeply in love with, as Romley did with him. Romley moved into his house and they spent the last 17 years of Stephen Sondheim's life together. They got married four years before Sondheim died. And there was no effort of hiding
- [26:01]
Terry Gross
that relationship during that period. He wrote a song from. I think this was probably the final musical that was actually performed in his lifetime. Yeah, in his lifetime, yeah. And it was. It had several titles, but I think it's mostly known as Roadshow. And the song I'm thinking of is the Best Thing that Ever Happened, which is, I love this song. It's a duet. And I didn't realize until you wrote it that it had become a standard song at gay weddings. But let's hear the song.
- [26:35]
Singer/Performer
You might just be the best thing that has happened to me so far. Of course, not much, much ever really has happened to me so far. I didn't much like love. I always fought it. I never thought it would happen like this. Give us a kiss. We may just be the best thing that has come happen to us.
- [27:12]
Daniel Okrent
Kiddo.
- [27:13]
Singer/Performer
Partner. Another moment like this may not happen to us. Partner. Lover. When all is said and done, I have to agree. You are the best thing that's happened to me.
- [27:38]
Terry Gross
That was the best thing that ever happened from the Sondheim musical Roadshow. And my guest is Daniel Okrent, author of the new book Stephen Art Isn't Easy. So Sondheim collaborated on several, like key musicals with Hal Prince. They had a pretty complicated relationship, and he also had a very complicated relationship with Leonard Bernstein. So let's focus on one of them you can choose.
- [28:06]
Daniel Okrent
Let's talk about Bernstein. When the two met, Sondheim was 25 and he came in to sort of audition as a lyricist for west side Story. And Bernstein, who was at that time the best known non rock musician in America by far, television star, music star. Bernstein immediately embraced him and hired him, along with his collaborators on the show, to write the lyrics for this very unlikely show about street gangs in New York in the mid to late 1950s. And they were a great combination. There are problems with the show they both would perceive in later years, but I think anybody who's familiar with the score of west side Story would say that it was a success. And from that moment on, Sondheim became part of the Bernstein social world, which was the red hot center of the creative world of New York, in fact, a world that Sondheim would later parody or satirize. I should say that he would satirize and merrily we can roll along. But at that time, he was taken in. He was taken in by everybody who mattered in the world of music and theater and books and dance. And he became very close with the Bernstein family. But over the years, what was a wonderful collaboration and a loving friendship turned a little bit into rivalry, and then it soured toward the end of Bernstein's life. My supposition, and it's only a supposition, is that at the time that Sondheim's reputation as a composer was rising and had reached nearly reached its peak, Bernstein's reputation as a composer was plummeting and the relationship changed. One was now a musical success. The other was now somebody who was having a very hard time holding things together. And in many other aspects of his life.
- [29:59]
Terry Gross
I think Bernstein didn't like Sweeney Todd.
- [30:02]
Daniel Okrent
It was Sweeney Todd. Of what she said about Sweeney Todd, he said, the music made me want to throw up in my galoshes.
- [30:08]
Terry Gross
See, I can't imagine that because it's such a brilliant musical, such a groundbreaking musical. And Sondheim didn't like Bernstein's Mass, but no one did. That's what I was gonna say. He was joined by a lot of people and not liking it.
- [30:23]
Daniel Okrent
But with Sweeney, I think, Terry, there's a misperception. I don't think when he said, it makes me want to throw up on my galoshes, he was commenting on the music. I think he was commenting to some degree on the subject matter, but mostly on his envy for Steve's success. I think it was killing him that Steve was having success doing something that he could no longer.
- [30:49]
Maureen Corrigan
Do
- [30:51]
Terry Gross
you write in the book that Sondheim described his songwriting process, not the lyrics but the musical part, as being built around chords, that the first thing that comes to him is the chords and then he adds the melody around that. And some of his chords were so interesting. And I'm gonna go back to Sweeney Todd for this because at the beginning of the show, it opens with this, like, really chilling organ solo, and it's one crazy chord after another. Like each chord has such a kind of demonic sound to it, and it just keeps building and building. So let's just hear a little bit of that,
- [31:43]
Singer/Performer
Sam.
- [32:07]
Terry Gross
So that's the opening music from Sweeney Todd, his musical about revenge that's inspired by it sounds like it's inspired by horror films. In part, yeah.
- [32:19]
Daniel Okrent
It's an amazing piece of work. And of course, that theme returns throughout the show behind other songs for different purposes. But it haunts the show. He said harmony was everything. If you don't have the harmony, forget about the rest of it. And so he would sit at the keyboard and he would just noodle around with his fingers and he would find these harmonies that seemed to fit the theme, the subject matter and even and most importantly, the character who was singing the song.
- [32:51]
Terry Gross
If you're just joining us, my guest is Daniel Okrent. He's the author of the new book Stephen Sondheim. Art Isn't Easy. We have to take a short break here, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH air.
- [33:03]
FRESH air Producer/Announcer
This message comes from Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and more@applecard.com
- [33:30]
Terry Gross
so I want to end the musical part of our discussion with one of the two songs that were played at Sondheim's memorial service. And there were songs that he felt very deeply about. One of them was Someone in a Tree from Pacific Overtures, a show that didn't do well and a show that most people don't know as well as his shows that do do well. I don't know the score that well myself, but he had told me that one of the first times I interviewed him that Someone in a Tree from Pacific Overtures was his favorite of all the songs he wrote. And you write when listening back to that song, he'd frequently tear up. So I want to play that song, but I'd like you to set it up for us.
- [34:17]
Daniel Okrent
Pacific Overtures is set in the middle of the 19th century when. Think of this as an idea for a Broadway musical. Let's do a Broadway musical about the opening of Japan to Western Commerce in the 1850s. I mean, it sounds ridiculous for musical. I happen to love the show deeply. It may be my favorite of all the Sondheim shows. And in this particular scene, the American admiral has come ashore to negotiate with the Japanese authorities. Negotiate with many ships and cannons right behind him. So it's not the easiest of negotiations. And in the song, a young boy is in a tree. He's the someone in a tree who is hearing little bits and pieces of the conversation and wanting to know what's really going on and believing that things he's here that he hears going on may not be the whole story. It is about an outsider trying to get in. And I believe that that would be a very short version of much of Stephen Sondheim's life. Even though it is not necessarily a beloved song by Sondheim fans, I think they. We admire it and treasure it because it was so important to him. His collaborator, John Weidman, who had never written a Broadway show before Pacific Overtures and then collaborated with him on two other shows, he said to me when I interviewed him that, you know, Steve cried at the time he wrote it, but he was still crying about it 40 years later. There's something in that that you need to pay attention to. And I think that what I pay attention to is the outsider trying to be in.
- [36:02]
Terry Gross
Okay, let's hear it.
- [36:04]
Singer/Performer
Tell him what I see. I am in the tree. I am 10. I am in a tree. I was younger then. In between the eaves, I can see. Tell me what I see. I was only 10. I see men and matting. Some are old, some chatting. If it happened, I was there. I saw everything. I was someone in the tree.
- [36:54]
Terry Gross
Tell him what I see.
- [36:58]
Singer/Performer
Some of them have gold on their coats. One of them has gold.
- [37:03]
Terry Gross
That was someone in a tree. From the Stephen Sondheim musical Pacific Overtures. My guest, Daniel Okrent, is the author of the new book Stephen Sondheim. Art Isn't Easy. You know, I think your book could have been called Genius Isn't Easy instead of Art Isn't Easy. Art Isn't Easy is a quote from Sunday in the park with George, one of the lyrics. But there's so many geniuses in your book. And they're all such complicated people.
- [37:31]
Daniel Okrent
I guess they are. I may have over complicated them because I do so much research. I go so deep and I find things that, you know, inevitably lead to complication. I could you could do it with my life very, very, very easily. But it is true that in the theater community, I think it goes without saying that emotions are on the surface. And even if you're trying to hide the emotions, the fact that you're trying to hide them are on the surface. It's a very volatile world. And so the people I'm writing about in this book, not just Sondheim, but also Prince and Bernstein and so many others, not a lot of easy personalities.
- [38:11]
Terry Gross
So you said that this Sondheim book is going to be your last book. How does it feel to have Sondheim be the last book you're going to write?
- [38:23]
Daniel Okrent
What was great about the Sondheim project was I wasn't going to make any money from it. It's published by University Press. It's on a relatively arcane subject. And it was something that I did because I was interested and I had been interested in Sondheim for most of my adult life. And now here was the opportunity presented to me. Go find out everything about somebody in that you admire greatly. And that was a pleasure. And I'm pleased enough as I hope you are, Terry. I'm pleased enough with this one to think, okay, I've done enough.
- [39:06]
Terry Gross
Well, Daniel Okran, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.
- [39:10]
Daniel Okrent
You love Sondheim's music as much as I do, so it's great to share this with you.
- [39:14]
Terry Gross
Terry, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Daniel Okrent is the author of the new book Stephen Art Isn't Easy. After we take a short break, book critic Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel that reimagines an infamous clash of cultures. This is FRESH air.
- [39:31]
FRESH air Producer/Announcer
This message comes from Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and
- [39:56]
Terry Gross
more at applecard.com Mexican novelist Alvaro Henrique reimagined the 1519 meeting of Spanish explorer Hernan Cortez with Aztec ruler Moctezuma in his 2024 novel You Dreamed of Empires. Henrique's latest novel, called Now I Surrender, also reimagines an infamous clash of cultures. Our book critic Maureen Corrigan has a review.
- [40:22]
Maureen Corrigan
Before the Captivity narrative about a Mexican woman abducted by the Apache in the mid-1800s, before the storyline about Geronimo's surrender, before the torrent of details about the life and peoples on the borderlands between present day Mexico and the U.S. there's this first sentence in the beginning, things appear. Writing is a defiant gesture we've long since gotten used to where there was nothing, somebody put something, and now everybody sees it. For example, the prairie. That's the opening of Alvaro Enrique's new novel called Now I Surrender. The words are spoken by Enrique himself. He appears throughout the novel as a writer traveling on a road trip through the Southwest with his family. They're visiting sites that tell the story of the Apache fight for survival. That Prospero like opening gives readers fair warning about how defiantly challenging, occasionally overblown, and at times magical this epic novel is going to be. In the self conscious, hallucinatory tradition of historical novelists like E.L. doctorow and Don DeLillo, Enrige keeps intrusively reminding us that this overpacked tale of the past is something he's constructing as much as resurrecting. And like his predecessors, Enrigue subscribes to a paranoid reading of history. As a character in Libra, DeLillo's novel about the Kennedy assassination says, this is what history consists of. It is the sum total of the things they aren't telling us. There's so much that official history hasn't told us about how the west was won that Enrique here works furiously to fill in some of the silences. The novel's most engrossing, if brutal, storyline follows a young Mexican woman named Camila. We first see her running into the prairie after an Apache raid wipes out everyone else living on her elderly husband's ranch. To give you a sense of how immediate and visual Enrique's writing can be, here's the moment when the Apache catch up with Camila. She didn't look back, but she clearly heard a group of horses breaking away from the herd of running cattle and swerving toward her. When the dust raised by the pounding of the horses hooves began to sting her eyes, she threw herself on the ground and curled into a ball, hoping to be trampled to death. Then she was yanked up by her braids, her neck wrenched, her legs kicking, her brown underskirts. A flower in the wind. Camila's abduction spurs a second narrative featuring a ragtag search party assembled under a lieutenant colonel of the Mexican Republic. The searchers ride far into the vast territory that was once known as Apacheria. Enrique tells us, this ancient homeland of the various Apache tribes and vanished before our eyes like cassette tapes or incandescent light bulbs. Where Sonora, Chihuahua, Arizona and New Mexico meet today was an Atlantis, an in between country, and straddling it were the Mexicans and the gringos, like two children, eyes shut, their backs to each other, while the Apaches scuttled back and forth between their legs, not sure where to go, with strangers bubbling up everywhere, filling their lands. The end game for the Apache began in March 1886, when their great leader and shaman, Geronimo, surrendered with a small band of warriors to the US Army. According to the official transcript of that moment, Geronimo said, once I moved like the wind. Now I surrender to you. And that is all. Enrique's novel, which takes its title from Geronimo's eloquent words, loses some vitality when it focuses on the story of his surrender and afterlife as a prisoner of war and a curiosity. Geronimo appeared, for instance, at the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis and rode in Teddy Roosevelt's inaugural parade the year after. Given that Enrige writes with such unsentimental admiration about Apacheria, perhaps recounting the story of Geronimo's fall felt more like a writerly duty than a desire. Now I Surrender has been described as a revisionist or alternative Western, which it is, but given its scope, I think it might be more apt to call it an expandable Western. There's room for everyone in this epic of conquest and eradication. Native Americans, Mexicans, gringos, formerly enslaved people, immigrants and one lone writer gamely trying to tell their stories before the curtain comes down on the whole enterprise.
- [46:06]
Terry Gross
Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed Now I Surrender by Alvaro Henrique. Tomorrow on FRESH air, we'll talk about the latest developments in the war in Iran and its spread to other countries and the Strait of Hormuz. Our guest will be Karim Sajadpour, senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He says President Trump was hoping things would work out like they did in Venezuela, where the vice president, Elsie Rodriguez, became president and is cooperating with Trump. But instead, Trump may have produced another Kim Jong Un. I hope you'll join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram P R FRESH air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Sizzanyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.
- [47:30]
FRESH air Producer/Announcer
This message comes from Mint Mobile if you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks, Mint Mobile might be right for you with plans starting from 15 bucks a month. Shop plans today@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. It's Oscar season and we watched the nominated movies so you don't have to. We are making some bold predictions for Hollywood's biggest night and we may help you win your Oscars pool. Listen to pop culture happy hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.