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- [00:01]
Terry Gross
This message comes from Capital One. Your business faces unique challenges and opportunities. That's why Capital One offers a comprehensive suite of financial services backed by the strength of a top 10 commercial bank. Visit capitalone.com Commercial Member FDIC hi, it's Terry Gross.
- [00:19]
Tonya Mosley
Before we start our show, I want to take a minute to remind you that it's almost Giving Tuesday, which is so named because it's become a day of expressing gratitude by giving money or any kind of help to an individual or group or organization that matters to you. We've found a way to turn Giving Tuesday into Giving and Getting Tuesday. If you subscribe to NPR plus in return, you'll be getting special bonus episodes from a bunch of NPR podcasts. These bonus episodes are available only to NPR subscribers. On FRESH air's bonus episodes, you'll hear hosted, curated, timely interviews from our archive every week. NPR members also get to listen to all NPR podcasts without interruptions from sponsors. And the subscription is a tax deductible donation. It's a win, win. So join us at plus.npr.org that's plus.npr.org or you can always make a gift at donate.npr.org thank you, and thanks to everyone who's already supporting us. And now on with the show.
- [01:28]
This is FRESH air. I'm Tonya Mosley, and today my guests are Malcolm and John David Washington. The brothers collaborated on the late August Wilson's the Piano Lesson for the screen on Netflix. It's the fourth play in Wilson's American Century cycle, a series of 10 plays that captures the black American experience through every decade of the 20th century. Malcolm serves as the director, and John David stars as the brash, impulsive and fast talking Boy Willie, who wants to sell the family piano to buy land in Mississippi that his family was enslaved on. The family battle ensues between Boy Willie and his sister Bernice, played by Danielle Deadweiler, who wants the family to hold onto the piano, a family heirloom engraved with their ancestors faces. The production of this film was a family affair. The brother, sister Katia, and their father, Oscar winning Denzel Washington, are producers. And Denzel, who starred and co produced in Wilson's Fences, has committed to adapting Wilson's plays into 10 films. Their mother, Pauletta Washington, even appears in the movie, starring as Mama Ola. The Piano Lesson is Malcolm Washington's directorial debut for a feature film, and John David portrayed Boy Willie in the Broadway revival of the Piano Lesson. He's also starred in several films, including Spike Lee's BlackKklansman and Christopher Nolan's Time Travel Mindbender tenet. John David and Malcolm Washington, welcome to FRESH air.
- [02:59]
John David Washington
Thank you for having us. Hello.
- [03:00]
Malcolm Washington
Yeah, thank you. That was quite an introduction. I was like, whoa.
- [03:03]
Tonya Mosley
Well, I want to get right into our discussion about the film by playing a clip. And the story takes place in 1936. Bernice, played by Danielle Deadweiler, lives in Pittsburgh with the piano and her brother, Boy Willie, played by you. John David is a sharecropper in their hometown of Mississippi, and he's driven up to Pittsburgh in hopes of persuading Bernice to sell. And their uncle, played by Samuel L. Jackson, explains why Bernice won't do it. He speaks first. Let's listen.
- [03:34]
John David Washington
Bernice ain't gonna sell that piano.
- [03:39]
Malcolm Washington
Cause her daddy died of it.
- [03:44]
Tonya Mosley
All.
- [03:44]
John David Washington
That's in the past. If my daddy had seen what he could have traded that piano and for some land of his own, wouldn't be sitting up here now. He spent his whole life farming somebody else's land. I ain't gonna do that.
- [04:07]
Tonya Mosley
That was my guest today, John David Washington with Samuel L. Jackson in the Netflix film the Piano Lesson, directed by my other guest, Malcolm Washington. And you know, this is such a black American story that endures that yearning to pass down items of value up against this very real and often desperate need to sell for practical reasons, or in Boy Willie's case, to gamble towards this American dream of owning land. And I want to start by asking you, Malcolm, what was it about this story that you felt was not only enduring, but an urgent one that needed to be retold now?
- [04:47]
Malcolm Washington
Yeah, I think it's really, really, really important for people to learn their history, both ancestral and just culturally, know where you come from and acknowledge it. Because we're living in a time where people are trying to rewrite history or erase people from history and their contributions. So it's kind of incumbent upon all of us to reclaim our stories, you know, and proclaim them and declare them who we are as a people, who we are as a culture and identity. All these things are super urgent to reclaim.
- [05:25]
Tonya Mosley
You also wanted to bring a modern touch to this. And I mean, August Wilson is one of the greatest playwrights of our time. So, I mean, this material is just right. But I can imagine that's also intimidating, possibly. What was your first step in bringing your director's touch to what is well established material?
- [05:45]
Malcolm Washington
Yeah, it was intimidating, but it was also very exciting. The first step was putting this in a context, right? A historical context, understanding the moment that the play was written in the moment that it's speaking to, that it's set in. It was about learning as much as I could about August Wilson. His considerations as a writer, who he was as a man, where he's from, what he stood on, his belief system. Understand all these things about him and his intentions so that you can kind of pass it through the prism of yourself and bring your voice to it. But always trying to serve this kind of bigger thing.
- [06:24]
Tonya Mosley
John David, in the scene that we played, you were in character with Samuel L. Jackson, who actually originally played boy Willie in 1987. And in this film, he plays the uncle to Bernice and Boy Willie, his performance, it's quiet, it's contemplative. He exudes kind of like this wise, knowing as he watches you. And for me, it was a little bit emotional. I'm, like, going through this moment where I'm looking at all of our actors as we move through time and they age. It was just emotional to watch, knowing his history with the character. What was it like for you to watch him watch you both in the Broadway version and in this movie?
- [07:11]
John David Washington
That's an interesting observation, because I think that was happening for me, too. Just his relationship to the play, which he's been, you know, very public about, and what he represents as a black African American actor in this industry. There was a lot of things working at the same time. Well, we can start with the word intimidating right there. You know, pressure filled is some words also that come to mind when thinking about or reflecting about my experience, particularly on stage every night, saying these words that he's perfected, that he helped sort of erect and get to Broadway. You know, so there was a lot of pressure there. But I felt so encouraged because of how he supported us. He was a great resource. You know, all of his experience in the art in this industry, he was very forthcoming about. He shared. And I didn't know at the time how that was gonna help me with the character, necessarily. But as I've. As I gradually got into it and grew into the character, I realized how much, how beneficial it was for me to hear those stories and infuse that into the motivation of getting this thing as true as possible.
- [08:22]
Tonya Mosley
He was supportive of you guys talking to you about the industry and the craft. But did he talk to you about this character, or did he leave that to you to interpret it?
- [08:33]
John David Washington
Things that were working, he would comment on. I never thought to do it that way, or I never thought about it this way. And he said that. And if, you know, Mr. Sam Jackson, he's a Tough critic. So any kind of positive feedback from him is like, I'm taken to my grave if I ever work again. I know Sam Jackson liked the choice I made, you know what I mean? So in that regard, yeah, he was influential in my encouragement of I'm on the right track.
- [09:03]
Tonya Mosley
I'm really curious, John David, why do you think actors in particular are drawn to Wilson's work kind of as a way to deepen their craft. I'm thinking about all of the actors that are really well known today who have gone through and done these playscourtney B. Vance, James Earl Jones, Viola Davis, your father, Denzel, so many others. What is the gravitational pull?
- [09:33]
John David Washington
I think so often we have to dig. When we find really good writing, great writing, we still have to dig. These names you're talking about, we have to dig, we have to find it. You know, we excavate, we research, and we have to meet a lot of the writing, the really good writing. Somewhere August Wilson comes to us and it's a relief when you get a voice that is yours, when you get a voice that is somebody you're related to. When you get an experience that both a 50 year old, 70 year old man, a 20 to 40 year old man have. There's so many specific moments in our culture that he accurately depicts. I'm talking about when every N word is properly placed. You know, there's magic to that, to be honest. So that gravitational pull you speak of, it's almost like a relief. If we meet August Wilson with our best and most honest self and experience, you will come out a different actor.
- [10:38]
Tonya Mosley
Your names Malcolm and John David, where do those names come from? I can kind of guess with Malcolm, but I want to be sure.
- [10:48]
John David Washington
Well, I guess I'll start because mine's a little more controversial, if you will. I found out later what I mean is. I'll explain. So John David, from what I thought known until I was about 17, was my uncle David and my great grandfather John. One night after a victory, it was a high school football game and we beat our rivals and we're one game away from the state championship. We're very excited, we're all happy. We're home celebrating and just screaming out loud how great of a victory it was. And my father, in his joy, in great glee, he says, that's why I named you John David, after John David Crow, a football player. And the record scratched. Cause I guess that was the first time my mom heard that. Definitely first time I heard that, I didn't mind it. That's cool. But mom was like, what? And then she got quiet. And it's interesting how quietness can bring on, like, more anger than yelling, you know? And you can tell she was disturbed by that a little bit. She was like, but, Denzel, I thought it was named after Uncle David, your brother and Grandpa John. And he kind of like, yeah, yeah.
- [11:54]
Malcolm Washington
But he's like, no, but the truth is. But really? Combination. Yeah. So they had different stories on it.
- [12:02]
John David Washington
They got different stories. Yeah.
- [12:04]
Tonya Mosley
Malcolm X. Is that who you were named after or not?
- [12:08]
Malcolm Washington
Actually, no. No, I'm named after. He's a cousin of mine, but he's our dynamic and age. He's like an uncle. My cousin Malcolm from Eden, North Carolina.
- [12:21]
Tonya Mosley
All right. Big ups to cousin Malcolm. Yeah, I noticed.
- [12:27]
John David Washington
And John David Crow, by the way.
- [12:28]
Malcolm Washington
And John. Yeah, exactly. Don't leave John David Crowe out.
- [12:30]
John David Washington
Right?
- [12:31]
Tonya Mosley
That's right. That's right. Both cousins. Right, right. You know, I noticed how in interviews, both of you guys, you kind of say it offhandedly, but you regularly rep Los Angeles as your hometown. And I want to know what does it mean for the both of you to identify not only as Angelenos, but, you know, your black Angelenos, and then you also come from, like, a very privileged section of that then as well. I mean, how did growing up here influence your art and your taste?
- [13:05]
Malcolm Washington
I love LA so much. I think LA's just an incredible city. There's so many amazing cultures that come together there. It's like. It's a place that's both a physical place and metaphysical, and that when people think about, like, there's an idea of what LA is, and then there's kind of a lived experience of what LA is. So I like that it operates on a couple different fronts. I think that it, like, functions kind of like how Pittsburgh functions in our story the Piano Lesson, where it's a place especially for black people. It's a place where, in the Great Migration, so many black people came in search of opportunity to build a new life, to build themselves up. So it's a place built off of the. Not only the hopes, but the labor of dreams. You know, like, somebody had to build that place. And I think that it lives in. It lives in that, you know.
- [14:00]
Tonya Mosley
You know, as a kid growing up in the 90s, you're Father Denzel, Spike Lee, Samuel L. Jackson. I'll even throw in, like, Eddie Murphy. And just so many people, they played such a big role in the construction of black pride for so many, myself included. And I'm just. I really want to know how that felt internally, to grow up among it. And in it, like, was black history and black pride also something that your parents instilled in you in the way that, like, just to the public, they were instilling in all of us.
- [14:36]
Malcolm Washington
Absolutely. You know, I grew up with such a strong consciousness, and you gotta remember, like, I grew up in the era of my dad, having played Malcolm X, you know, So I identify with Malcolm X as a figure. I identify with that part of our story. And growing up in LA in the 90s, post LA uprising, you know, where black people have a voice, they're fighting for something, they're believing in something, they're saying, something. I connected to that so much so that it's like how boy Willie says, I was born in a time of fire. I feel that, too. That resonates with me from both the creative artistic movements that were happening at the time, the political movements that were happening at the time, of people declaring themselves who they are at the time. And so all of those things live in me. And I'm happy that my parents had such a pride in our culture, have such a respect for it, and instilled that in us.
- [15:34]
Tonya Mosley
Yeah, John? David?
- [15:38]
John David Washington
Yeah, I think I was just thinking about your question. In my childhood, you know, my first time I played Pop Warner football, tackle football, was Baldwin Hills. And, you know, Baldwin Hills is a.
- [15:49]
Tonya Mosley
Neighborhood in Los Angeles for those who don't know.
- [15:52]
John David Washington
Yeah, yeah, that's right. And. But yet I was going to school in the Valley, you know, and, you know, I remember the first time I got chased down by some Crips, you know, in Los Angeles with a friend of mine, you know, I remember first time being asked, where you from? You know, and where your mom? All that. Like, there's a Kendrick part of it, too. He's like, well, where your mama stay? Where your grandma stay? I've experienced that before, you know, at Magic Johnson's movie theater. So what would you tell people?
- [16:21]
Tonya Mosley
Because, I mean, were you saying, oh, I'm Denzel Washington's son?
- [16:24]
John David Washington
I would absolutely not say that. You know, it was funny, like. And it was depicted in the wood, like, the character says, I'm from North Carolina. I would say that. I'm like, I'm actually. I would deny where. I would deny where I was from and say I was from another state a lot of times. But I forget why they were chasing us. At one time, it was a friend of mine that.
- [16:41]
Malcolm Washington
You know why.
- [16:42]
John David Washington
I do know why, actually, I'm not gonna call him out here, but I Think about some of those memories of my LA experience, because it is an interesting one because of the blends of cultures that I was able to experience. You know, going to private school, yet playing ball hills, having friends that lived in different neighborhoods. You know, I just got a full course meal in diversity.
- [17:03]
Tonya Mosley
Yeah. And how to navigate. I mean, that is definitely an experience.
- [17:07]
John David Washington
Well, and that what helped me with that navigation was sports, was athletics. No matter where you're from, like, they respect you. If you put work on. If you put in work on the field or on the court, you actually become more interesting to that person that maybe not from the same background that you're from, but you. But you're a killer on the court or on the field, that they know that you have their back and they can trust you. There's something about that. There's a universal language in sport and athletics that really helped me with my identity and helped me sort of course correct and navigate relationships I had from people that weren't from where I was from.
- [17:47]
Tonya Mosley
Sports is a unifying force, for sure. It also is like really high pressure. And I mean, all jobs are performances. But like sports and the creative space, particularly acting, like a bad sports play or a bad acting performance could make or break a career. Right. I mean, both of you seem to thrive from that pressure. What is it in you, in the both of you, that maybe thrives from that pressure? John David.
- [18:21]
John David Washington
Hmm. Thrives from that. Well, I'm still kind of living. I don't know.
- [18:27]
Malcolm Washington
Yeah, you're one bad performance.
- [18:29]
John David Washington
You say it like that. Like this could be. I mean, a lot of it, this felt like life and death for me. I don't mean to get too dramatic, but this project, the play specifically, I knew on the other side of this, I'm gonna find out about myself. And I did have these real conversations with myself and my publicist that if this. If I fall, I don't know if I can get back up from this. Really.
- [18:50]
Tonya Mosley
Why? Why?
- [18:51]
John David Washington
I did feel like. Well, because of how powerful and how important and how we hold August Wilson's words and his artistry and being on the boards, as they call it on Broadway, you know, there's a lot more respect. There's a different kind of respect you get from your peers, from the community at large that are in the artistry, if you can actually act. I've said this before. I liken it to a rapper. I've been able to work with the Dr. Dre's and the Pharrells and the timberlands of the as producers. But like, can you actually rap? Do you have bars? And that's what this, this was going. That's what I needed to find out for myself. And so I felt a lot of pressure in that way.
- [19:31]
Tonya Mosley
How do you make yourself comfortable with rejection?
- [19:37]
John David Washington
Through repetition. I've had plenty of, plenty of, plenty of experiences of, with rejection. I'm very familiar with rejection. I've almost gotten comfortable to the point of where it becomes almost like an impervious feeling. And so my whole life we talking about, you know, our LA upbringing and stuff. Like, it does feel that I felt like I might not have been able to be seen. I got rejected in my real personality sometimes. So I felt like I could hide it or I can filter that through those feelings, through sport, through activity to enact my, my resentment that build up for how I was, you know, in my interactions. So rejection is a byproduct of pursuing what you love and what you love doing.
- [20:22]
Tonya Mosley
I want to slow that down a little bit, that resentment that you're talking about. What do you mean when you say that?
- [20:30]
John David Washington
So if I got judged by somebody because they knew who I was related to, where I was from, I feel like I can introduce them or reintroduce them. To me, I can reintroduce myself as this athlete on the field or as this actor on screen or stage. I don't necessarily use that as motivation anymore, but I did and I found that, I found success in it and I found my identity in that, that I was finding respect from people outside.
- [21:03]
Tonya Mosley
Of your father's name. Yeah.
- [21:05]
John David Washington
Yes, exactly.
- [21:06]
Tonya Mosley
Our guests today are director Malcolm Washington and actor John David Washington. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tonya Moseley and this is FRESH air.
- [21:18]
Terry Gross
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- [21:30]
Tonya Mosley
At Saatva, you have a 365 day home trial. Why would we want to rush you or try to push you into something that's not right for you? We want to make sure that we guide to the right mattress. Our team is always available to be helpful to make sure you make the.
- [21:45]
Terry Gross
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- [22:27]
John David Washington
The wild is a podcast about the.
- [22:29]
Tonya Mosley
Wonders of nature and the people working to protect it. Our new season takes you through America's national parks, from the tallest trees to the driest deserts. We'll explore incredible stories from these beloved landscapes. Listen to the Wild from KUOW Chris Morgan Wildlife in the NPR Network. Wherever you get your podcasts, this is FRESH air. I'm Tanya Moseley and today my guests are director Malcolm Washington and actor John David Washington. The brothers collaborated on the late August Wilson's the Piano Lesson for the Screen on Netflix. It's the fourth play in Wilson's American Century Cycle, a series of 10 plays that capture the American experience for black people through every decade of the 20th century. Malcolm Washington has produced and written several short films. The Piano Lesson is his directorial full length feature debut. John David portrayed Boy Willie for the first time on Broadway and now plays him in the film. He also starred in several other films including Spike Lee's BlackKklansman, the mystery comedy thriller Amsterdam and Christopher Nolan's time travel mind Bender 10. John David, you were a pro football player with the St. Louis Rams in the early 2000s. You also spent four years as a running back for the United Football League Sacramento Mountain Lions. But when you were playing pro, you got injured. What happened?
- [23:56]
John David Washington
I tore my Achilles and I ruptured it on my right Achilles and that was it, retirement. And that's when I transitioned into acting. Open audition call for a football player for a show called Ballers. They were auditioning football players all over the country and that was my way in.
- [24:15]
Tonya Mosley
Is it true that you showed up with like your cast or boot or something to the HBO Ballers audition?
- [24:22]
John David Washington
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. With the boot on pain pills. So I was very relaxed to say the least. And I had my first audition with Sheila Jaffe.
- [24:31]
Tonya Mosley
Well, Ballers, it's great. You were phenomenal in that for that to be like your first major role. Your character in Ballers had this attachment to his college number 18, and he had all of these attachments, his first championship, his plays, his accomplishments that were like, they were like steps. They were like a process to get, you know, for his identity. And it's what you're talking about as far as you forging your identity. What was that process of letting that go and turning towards that new thing, that new identity, that identity that you kind of were running, running from your father's identity, but now you were stepping into it as a novice.
- [25:18]
John David Washington
Okay, doctor. Yeah, it's. Well, it was, you know, these collaborations that I've been able to experience. Some of these films I got to be a part of and these giants I've gotten to work with, who I revere so high. I think they're, you know, Hollywood gods, you know, and them giving me the confidence in myself, them wanting treat me like a colleague, you know, trusting my instincts, picking me for a reason. And the way they use me, literally the way they've edited me in their films and the way they've, you know, like it's small things, but there's a couple moments in blackkklansman that were happening just naturally. I was just going riffing and Spike used it, you know what I mean? Like, he just, he put it, he put it in the film. And so it's one thing to tell you trust and, you know, they trust you and all that. But then they used it in that way. I was like, oh man, maybe I am enough. And that really helped me my confidence going forward.
- [26:15]
Tonya Mosley
Do you remember the lines that you ad libbed for Spike that got left to end?
- [26:21]
John David Washington
Oh, yeah. I believe we can. With the right white man, we can do anything. I think the line originally was with the right man or we can, we can. I think I believe we came with the right man. And I added, with the right white man, we can do anything.
- [26:39]
Tonya Mosley
Which is really apt for the story.
- [26:41]
John David Washington
Yeah, it was so appropriate. It just came out. I don't know where it came from. I just did. I just said it. And he kept it because I think in my face too, he could tell, like I'm just in it. Like it was just like a flowing thing and he used it. I couldn't believe it.
- [26:56]
Tonya Mosley
Yeah, that also happened in Tenet, right? Christopher Nolan's film. For Tenet, you did a couple of ad libs and things that he was really impressed with.
- [27:05]
John David Washington
Well, I got a laugh and I would have lived with that. I can go to my grave knowing I made Christopher Nolan laugh in a line that I contributed to, you know, and he did it a couple more times. Did it differently, but same line and he used it. There's other times too where there's another scene that, you know, some emotional stuff started to happen. And, you know, I don't know if that take was for me. I was just. I just felt something and he used it in a massive close up. I was like, oh, my God, Like, I can't believe it, you know, so. And it was just, you know, he was, again, telling me throughout the process that he trusts my instincts and, like, hires you for a reason. But he also used it in the film, so. And he showed me what he meant. I guess he showed me what he meant, you know, with. With. With some of those scenes. So, you know, that was kind of the process of. Of me. Like, you know what? Okay, yeah, I can. I can. It's. I'm better served to go another route in my motivation than the other one. The other stuff is bad fuel.
- [28:07]
Tonya Mosley
Malcolm, you. You got to be on the set of Tenet, right? You visited the set.
- [28:12]
Malcolm Washington
I did visit. I visited for an afternoon.
- [28:16]
Tonya Mosley
You laugh. You gotta tell the story. It was kind of an emotional experience, right?
- [28:21]
Malcolm Washington
It was so dope. It was so dope. I'm a big Chris Nolan fan. You know, in our generation of filmgoers, he's like, you know, one of those guys. We came, you know, from Following Memento, like, all of them. I watch all of his films and know them well. And he has. He creates worlds, you know, so when you visit his set, it feels like you're in his world. Like, everything just looks like. Like if they weren't shooting there and you opened your eyes there and you found yourself there, you'd be like, this feels like a Christopher Nolan movie. It just is just dripping in his personality, it feels like. And his aesthetic. So it was really exciting to go and see my brother at work. And when I got there, there was a woman called Ariel that I worked with. She went to AFI with me. She used to production design my shorts, actually. So it was really crazy being in a Nolan set with Ariel, who's assistant art directing. And my brother's on set and they're shooting in this, like, shipping container. So you can't really see anything. They're just like people in the box. And you kind of get this feeling that something's gonna happen. And a monitor emerges, and I get to see it, see some of the stuff on that they're shooting. And I, like, they. Hoyta frames up the camera, and I see my brother doing something probably really mundane. It was like you were, like, opening, like, a door. It was, like, buried, like nothing was happening. And he frames up and I hear. I hear Chris Nolan say John David's name and gives him a note. And I just burst into tears because it was like, whoa. This is. It just hit me like A ton of bricks. Like, this is. This is a kind of moment that we've been thinking. Like, when we. When we lived together, we dreamed together, too. You know, we talked about. We talked about wanting to do stuff like that, you know, wanting to be in a movie like that. So when he. Seeing that image and hearing those sounds and knowing that world and everything just kind of converged on itself in that moment. And I have, you know, somebody from my film school right next to me, and she put her hand on me and was like, it's okay. And I was just like, this is. Like, this is too much. It was just overwhelming. It was so overwhelming.
- [30:29]
John David Washington
I feel like you didn't. You break down when we all kind of stand. Like, after the scene, we were all standing together.
- [30:35]
Malcolm Washington
I didn't know I didn't break down, but you got embarrassed because. So they shoot and they walk out, they break for lunch, and they all walk off the set, and I, like, jump in front of Chris. I'm like, yo, thank you for your contribution. Cause I'm like, you know, I'm some. I love movies. Like, I really love this stuff, you know? So the people that make movies that make me feel something or think about, like, they mean a lot to me. Like, I feel like I owe them something, you know? And these films feel like they become yours as an audience member. It's like, that's my. Like, that was my. Like, I watch Phantom Thread and the Master. I'm like, you know, these are my movies, right? So when I see people like that, I tell them, I'm like, yo, thank you. Like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for everything you've done. And I did that, but it was like, not that moment. Everybody's at work, like, they're trying to get to lunch, and I look at John David just drops his head like, dog. Like, nah, man. Nah, not right now.
- [31:28]
John David Washington
Mr. Nolan's trying to get his ribs. They got ribs today. Sir, what are you doing?
- [31:33]
Malcolm Washington
He's, like, holding the monitor, like, I appreciate it, man, but keep. Step out the way.
- [31:37]
Tonya Mosley
Excuse my younger brother, please.
- [31:39]
John David Washington
Yes.
- [31:40]
Malcolm Washington
It was so funny. It was so funny. But he was gracious. Thank God.
- [31:44]
Tonya Mosley
Our guests today are director Malcolm Washington and actor John David Washington. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH air. It's almost Thanksgiving, and if you're hosting this year, how well do you know how to cook the main event, a turkey, in the grand scheme of things, not actually that hard. There's just a couple little things you have to keep in mind. Requires a little bit of planning ahead on a new episode of Life Kit. We talk turkey. Listen wherever you get your podcasts, take.
- [32:18]
Terry Gross
A moment to unwind and give thanks.
- [32:20]
John David Washington
This week with NPR's All Songs Considered.
- [32:22]
Terry Gross
As listeners share their favorite songs of gratitude.
- [32:26]
Tonya Mosley
This song speaks to me, and the basic thing is everybody turns, turns and lands in the place that they need to be.
- [32:37]
John David Washington
Download new episodes of All Songs Considered.
- [32:39]
Terry Gross
Every Tuesday, wherever you get podcasts.
- [32:41]
Malcolm Washington
The marketing for the movie Wicked has been inescapable. There's all the green and pink merch, and Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo have been everywhere.
- [32:49]
Terry Gross
But does the movie live up to the hype?
- [32:52]
Malcolm Washington
We know you've been waiting for this one.
- [32:54]
Terry Gross
We've seen Wicked and we have thoughts.
- [32:56]
John David Washington
And we'll get to them all, including.
- [32:57]
Terry Gross
Some weirdly heated opinions on defying Gravity. Listen to the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from npr.
- [33:05]
Tonya Mosley
This is FRESH air. And today my guests are director Malcolm Washington and actor John David. Washington, both of you have had experiences on of being on set with your parents. John David, I think you've told stories about being on the set of Glory and also Philadelphia, right?
- [33:25]
John David Washington
Oh, yeah. Yes, I have.
- [33:26]
Tonya Mosley
What do you remember the most about those experiences?
- [33:31]
John David Washington
Well, like, I'd like to echo what Malcolm said. I mean, movies are I might take it too seriously. Like, I mean, they were a huge part of my life. They're part of my upbringing. Some of these movies, you know, helped raise me. You know, I had the blue suit I got for Christmas. For Christmas one year, all I wanted was the blue suit and a new VHS Glory tape because I broke it because I watched it so many times.
- [33:55]
Tonya Mosley
How old were you when you wanted that?
- [33:58]
John David Washington
I think six, maybe six or something like that. Was it 80, 88, 89, something like that. So. But on Glory, yeah, I've told this story before where I remember being on set, I might have been five or something like that. And directed by Ed Zwick. There's this huge sequence, this battle scene at the end. The 54th is marching over this fort that they have to take. And I think we're in South Carolina and, you know, there's a lot of sand traps and sand dunes and it's like explosives and, well, I guess fireworks and fake explosives, pyrotechnics. And we were sitting somewhat in the distance at Video Village, and it's night out. All you can see is darkness and then the light coming from the fireworks and the light kind of like the opening beat of our movie. And I see my dad coming from the ashes, comes up over Top of the hill, looking all dirty and heroic in his blue suit. And he says to me, john, David, you want to come on set? And I geek up. I look at my mom, and she shakes her head. She didn't even say no. She shakes her head no. She didn't even say no. I was devastated. That one hurt a lot. And I remember that so specifically. Like, I don't. I couldn't have been more than five years old.
- [35:11]
Tonya Mosley
Did she say why? Did she say why you couldn't?
- [35:14]
John David Washington
So it's coming up on Thanksgiving. When I see her on Thanksgiving, I'm going to ask her. So I never. It never occurred to me to ask her why. But I'm thinking she's gonna deny that happened. She's gonna deny her saying no. She's probably gonna say it's something else happened, you know? Right.
- [35:26]
Malcolm Washington
To blame you.
- [35:27]
John David Washington
To blame me or Pops. And I know Pops was. He was. I remember dad wanted. My dad wanted me there. So, yeah, that was a great memory. But that was one of my favorite films of all time. So.
- [35:37]
Tonya Mosley
Yes.
- [35:38]
John David Washington
Yeah, that was a great, great memory.
- [35:39]
Tonya Mosley
Did you get the blue suit?
- [35:41]
John David Washington
I did. I did.
- [35:43]
Tonya Mosley
Did you wear it in.
- [35:45]
Malcolm Washington
You know, it's Wild, too.
- [35:46]
Tonya Mosley
Yeah.
- [35:48]
Malcolm Washington
Is the woman that made that suit was a costume designer on that film. Her name is Francine. Ms. Francine.
- [35:54]
John David Washington
Ms. Francine.
- [35:54]
Malcolm Washington
Ms. Francine was our costume designer on the piano lessons.
- [36:00]
John David Washington
Yeah.
- [36:00]
Malcolm Washington
So it was like a full circle moment.
- [36:03]
Tonya Mosley
That's pretty amazing. You were gonna mention Philadelphia, too. You were on the set of.
- [36:07]
Malcolm Washington
Oh.
- [36:07]
John David Washington
Oh, yeah. Philadelphia. I remember being in some of the courtroom scenes for. And I believe one time I got to yell, action, Jonathan.
- [36:16]
Malcolm Washington
Yell, action. That's cool.
- [36:17]
John David Washington
Yeah, that was really. There's a story that my dad tells, though, about that movie. I've been watching that a lot lately. It's one of my favorites. I think it's one of my dad's most underrated performances. It was incredible. I think you can't get Tom Hanks performance without what my dad did. They just worked hand in hand. It was remarkable work. And he talked about this story with Jonathan Demme, how there's this big scene, and it was sort of a wide shot of him kind of explaining the point of the film. The line goes along the lines of, let's talk about what this case is really all about. The general public's hatred, our loathing, our fear of homosexuals. And that hatred and that fear led to our particular firing of my client, Beckett, Andrew Beckett. And he talked about that scene because it's such a Powerful monologue in that moment. And then, you know, the moment that happened, he said he did a cartwheel first before he entered the. Approached the bench. And what was so interesting about that story is Jonathan Demme didn't judge him. He didn't question him. He said, oh, that was interesting. And then they had a laugh afterwards. Cause Pops was saying he just wanted to know how. Like that if you can trust him, that he just. That he has freedom to do stuff. He's obviously not gonna do a cartwheel, but, like, do you trust me? And I thought that was so interesting because in that film, Jonathan Demme and he are having the same language, that character. I could feel the trust in the edits and the way he was captured in that film. And that story sort of depicted the feeling that I get from watching my dad in that film. So I thought that was a cool story that Pop shared with me, some insight.
- [37:50]
Tonya Mosley
That is a cool story. And I'm wondering how it informs your acting, your process, when you are on set with others and, like, you're building that trust, too, you know?
- [38:00]
John David Washington
Well, I don't think I'll ever need a cartwheel to test the parameters of our trust, but.
- [38:05]
Malcolm Washington
Well, you do some questionable things, too. You be barking.
- [38:10]
John David Washington
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. That is true.
- [38:12]
Tonya Mosley
What's the barking?
- [38:13]
Malcolm Washington
You know we're about to shoot.
- [38:14]
John David Washington
Oh, boy.
- [38:14]
Malcolm Washington
He just starts barking like crazy right before we start shooting. Like, right sound. Camarole, sour roll.
- [38:21]
Tonya Mosley
What's that about? What is that about?
- [38:25]
John David Washington
That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, to break up. How precious this is sometimes. You know what it is? What I love about acting is the examination and exploration of this psychological life of a human being. To play human beings and explore that. And there's something about making sure you're alive and well, checking in on yourself before you get into this thing that. This thing we do. I think that's part of it. Some of it is to take away from the stiffness. Some of it is to take away from or to add that this is fun. You know, a lot of it is for me to make sure I am aware and then make sure I'm not thinking at all. Do not think. Try to be in the moment. So a lot of that, some of that. But I don't know. I don't have a definitive answer for you.
- [39:12]
Tonya Mosley
If you're just joining us, my guests today are John David and Malcolm Washington. We're talking about their new film, the Piano Lesson. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH air. Holiday travel is stressful, especially if you're dealing with family baggage on top of your actual baggage.
- [39:30]
John David Washington
I'm going home. I'm gonna revert back to old family roles that are stressful. And so this traffic jam is the straw that's breaking the camel's back.
- [39:41]
Tonya Mosley
But don't worry, we're here to bring you some relief. Listen to the Life Kit podcast. We'll help you out this holiday season. Thanksgiving was a national holiday created in the middle of the Civil War to unify a country that was split in two. Learn about the origins of Thanksgiving and how the unity and division that we see at our Thanksgiving tables was there from the very beginning. Listen to the throughline podcast from npr. Hey there. It's Tamara Keith from the NPR Politics podcast, and I will keep this quick Giving Tuesday is almost here, the perfect time to support the independent news source you rely on to stay informed. Please give today@donate.NPR.org and thank you. This is FRESH AIR, and today I'm talking to Malcolm and John David Washington. The brothers have taken on the late playwright August Wilson's play the Piano Lesson for the screen on Netflix. I want to ask you guys about something else, and I want to see if I can formulate it right. But, like, how do you deal with the heat of fandom and desire? Because, I mean, your dad, for instance, is not only a great actor. You're already laughing. But your dad's already know. Of course he's a great actor, but he's also like every mom and every auntie's crush.
- [41:05]
John David Washington
And now fine in every generation, Right? Or something.
- [41:09]
Tonya Mosley
Fine in every generation, right? And now you guys are continuing the torch. I actually just picked up an LA magazine, and John David, you're on the COVID looking like a sex symbol, you know?
- [41:19]
Malcolm Washington
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Let the people know.
- [41:21]
John David Washington
Oh, boy. Just let them not know.
- [41:23]
Tonya Mosley
Okay, I'm just curious.
- [41:25]
John David Washington
What's the question?
- [41:30]
Tonya Mosley
Period? No period. What did like, I'm wondering, what did your dad teach you or what lessons did you learn from watching him when it comes to navigating that energy and that heat that like, throngs of fans throw towards you? Cause, I mean, I can't even imagine what your DMs might be like, you know?
- [41:48]
Malcolm Washington
Oh, my God.
- [41:51]
John David Washington
Who'S listening to this? Let's keep it peace. No, honestly, what I think about childhood memories, you know, my dad bringing home a trumpet. You know, I remember him, he dyed his hair red, getting ready for red in Malcolm X. You know, there was him walking me around the streets of New York reciting Shakespeare when he was getting ready for Richard iii, you know, so I've always been, you know, fascinated with that. My mom sat down and played a number, a classical number on the piano without reading the notes. The notes. You know, I think about that, of that, really. I think that's the relationship. That's what was being taught. It seems like it was always. To me, it's always been about the work. That's what they both teach us.
- [42:31]
Tonya Mosley
They both teach you that. But, like, there's no denying that there's also that other thing. And I just wanna know how you navigate it, both of you.
- [42:41]
Malcolm Washington
I think that they just, like, they were so protective of themselves first and us as well, you know, like, they kept. They always just highlight, like, keeping the noise outside. And I think that heat and desire that you're speaking of can be that noise, you know, And I think that we all just live very kind of meaningful, private lives. And I don't have that heat and desire in my DMs. It's so I don't have to deal with, you know, I don't have to deal with it in the same way John David does as an actor. And his face is out there all the time. But I think that they just.
- [43:19]
John David Washington
Weren't you on gq? Wasn't there a GQ thing that once you lit perfectly with your well moisturized lips and I was moisturized and the goatee and the hair was hairing.
- [43:29]
Malcolm Washington
It was a full beard.
- [43:30]
John David Washington
Yeah. The braids were braiding. Yeah.
- [43:31]
Malcolm Washington
Okay. But for real, I think it's just like the kind of focus and protection of your piece and yourself and not kind of getting swept up and all the other stuff.
- [43:43]
John David Washington
They made it clear too, that, like, this is theirs. Y'all gotta earn yours. You know what I mean? It's like it's them taking us to school. It's my dad coaching us. Like we were living somewhat of, I think a normal life because that's the environment they set. We celebrated Christmas. We would go trick or treating on Halloween. You know, it was a lot of that going on.
- [44:07]
Tonya Mosley
You make such a strong point and it's beautiful to see, but every chance you get, you remind people that you're the sons of both Denzel and Pauletta.
- [44:16]
Malcolm Washington
And they be trying to erase my mom.
- [44:20]
John David Washington
A reaction, I guess.
- [44:24]
Malcolm Washington
You know, we love both of them. And you know what saddens me sometimes about that is like, man, just like the role that mothers play, that black women play in our culture. That black mothers play, it's like such a crucial one, and they're often such an overlooked position sometimes, like, people don't give them their flowers. So, yeah, we're going to give our mom our flowers. Like, we love her. She's done so much for us.
- [44:48]
John David Washington
And to piggyback on that, to celebrate the woman she was before she was a mother, before she was a wife. You know, both my brother and her have their masters in the artistry. The only ones in the family that do. So, like, that's important to me, too. And we both carry that with us when we approach the art. That's part of the reason we love it as well. Knowing that she's an artist in her own right. So it's to piggyback on what you said. Cause I think that's a great point about women.
- [45:17]
Tonya Mosley
Yeah. What's her reaction to you guys making that statement and stating it so clear? Because as a mother, I just always smile like I want my children to be speaking my name out in the world like that.
- [45:28]
Malcolm Washington
And can you imagine? You know what I mean? Can you imagine? It's like they've gotten to, like, an impossible situation. You know, it's like my dad growing up first in Harlem and then Mount Vernon and just kind of like where he's ascended to in his.
- [45:44]
John David Washington
He'd be claiming Harlem like that. Yeah.
- [45:46]
Malcolm Washington
What you mean, Harlem?
- [45:48]
John David Washington
Harlem, yeah.
- [45:50]
Malcolm Washington
And then, God forbid, he meets somebody from Mount Vernon, and then it's like, what's Harlem? You know? But, yeah, you know, they both overcome and made such incredible lives for themselves. And I think we carry pride of coming from such strong, you know, people that live a purposeful life.
- [46:12]
Tonya Mosley
Yeah. John David, the older you get, the more and more you sound like your dad. Do you guys get confused at all in listening, like, on the phone or not?
- [46:23]
Malcolm Washington
Yes. I used to call the house. I used to call the house. And of course, you have that thing with your. You know, when you're 16, 17, maybe staying out a little late or something, or the report card came in, it wasn't perfect, and you call the house and you're like, oh, I hope. I hope my sister picks up. I hope my brother picks up. And John David would pick up, but he would sound just like my dad. Hello. Oh, my goodness. I would get. I would stand straight up where I was at.
- [46:49]
John David Washington
Dang. I guess I can't deny it.
- [46:51]
Malcolm Washington
It's always been like that.
- [46:52]
Tonya Mosley
Yeah. Do you think you'll adapt any more of August Wilson's plays?
- [46:59]
Malcolm Washington
You know what? I think that there's a really wonderful thing happening now where so far there's three films. There's been three different filmmakers and three different voices that have come to them. And each of the films kind of reflect the voice of the filmmaker so far, like my dad with fences, Mr. Wolf with, you know, he's incredible theater director. And I think that you can see that talent at work in Ma Rainey. My voice is different from theirs and I think you see that in Piano Lesson. So I hope that for the rest of them, they continue to get varied voices from different backgrounds and different kind of points of view and let this whole thing be a much larger kind of project where you look back and it's this tapestry of black artists working in this time, connecting to this seminal text.
- [47:46]
Tonya Mosley
Malcolm Washington and John David Washington, this was such a pleasure to talk with both of you and thank you so much.
- [47:52]
John David Washington
Thank you. Thank you for having us.
- [47:54]
Malcolm Washington
Yeah. Great conversation. I appreciate it.
- [47:57]
Tonya Mosley
Malcolm and John David Washington, Their adaptation of August Wilson's play the Piano Lesson is now on Netflix. On tomorrow's show, Ira Gershwin wrote some of the best known lyrics in the American popular songbook, including Love is here to stay, swonderful, fascinating rhythm, embraceable you and I've got a crush on you. We'll talk with Michael Owen, author of Ira A Life in Words, and we'll listen to some great music. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram @NPRFreshAir. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorak. Our technical director. Director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly CB Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Susan Yakundi directed today's show with Terri Gross. I'm Tonya Mosley. Support for NPR and the following message come from Rosetta Stone, the perfect app to achieve your language learning goals. No matter how busy your schedule gets, it's designed to maximize study time with immersive 10 minute lessons and audio practice for your commute. Plus, tailor your learning plan for specific objectives like travel. Get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off and unlimited access to 25 language courses. Learn more at rosettastone.com NPR this message.
- [50:12]
Terry Gross
Comes from PNC Private bank, whose steady, calculated approach to wealth management might sound boring, but the outcomes are anything but. PNC Private Bank Brilliantly boring since 1865 PNC Bank National association member FDIC this message comes from Anthropic. Meet Claude, Anthropic's AI assistant that elevates your entire organization by empowering every employee with expert level support. Transform how your teams work at Anthropic. Com Enterprise.