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- [00:00]
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- [00:17]
Tanya Moseley
This is FRESH air. I'm Tanya Moseley. Werner Herzog is a writer and director known for his unique approach to storytelling that often delves into the extremes, extreme personalities, predicaments and places. Aguirre, the Wrath of God, follows a mad conquistador in the 16th century as he navigates the treacherous Amazon jungle. Then there's Fitzcarraldo, where Herzog tells the story of a European man living in Peru who becomes obsessed with bringing opera to the Amazon. To achieve his dream, he faces an incredible challenge, getting a steamship over a mountain to reach a river. It's a wild premise, and it's made even more intense by the performances of Klaus Kinski, who plays a madman in both films. Herzog has remarked that Kinski is not just acting, he was an actual madman in real life. Kinske also starred in Herzog's haunting version of Nosferatu and appeared in the documentary Grizzly man, which tells the tragic story of a man who lived among grizzly bears in Alaska, believing he was protecting them, until one day a bear eats him. Herzog's own life has been shaped by extremes, too. Born in Munich During World War II, his mother rescued him as a baby from his crib, which was covered in shattered glass and debris. After Allied bombs devastated nearby homes, his mother fled to a remote part of Bavaria for safety, where she raised him and his brother in poverty. Throughout his life, Herzog has endured numerous injuries ski jumping. And while making films, his cast and crew have faced their share of challenges, too. Those who may not be familiar with Herzog's films often recognize him for his sinister roles in popular shows like Jack Reacher, the Mandalorian and even the Simpsons. Today, Herzog divides his time between Los Angeles and Munich, and Terry Gross spoke to him last year. His memoir is now available in paperback. It's called Every man for Himself and God Against All.
- [02:23]
Terry Gross
Werner Herzog, welcome back to FRESH air.
- [02:26]
Werner Herzog
Thank you for having me again.
- [02:28]
Terry Gross
Oh, it is always my pleasure. Do you know why you're attracted to extremes in your life and in your films?
- [02:37]
Werner Herzog
I don't see it that much as extremes. You see when you move a ship over a mountain, it is doable. And I knew it was doable, although quite hard. But I think it is such a big metaphor, like in literature, you have it, for example, the white whale, Moby Dick in the hunt for it, or Don Quixote attacking the windmills with his lance. So they are big metaphors, a big vision out there. And then it doesn't matter if it's becoming difficult or not. And of course, I disagree a little bit about what you said about risking things. Yes, I have risked personally things. I test the problems and the obstacles and the dangers. But in 80 or so films, not a single actor was ever injured. Not one. So it's my proof that I must be circumspect, that I must be careful. Of course, sometimes crew members were hurt, but they would volunteer, even push me. For example, let's go through the rapids with a ship, and it's a big one. I mean, 320 tons. And if it crashes into the rocks, it has a momentum and a kinetic energy that's enormous. And of course, almost everyone who was on board for filming, and they pushed me, let's go on board and let's film this. Almost everyone was injured. But that does happen. And it's a risk that we. That we knew and we accepted it.
- [04:17]
Terry Gross
But my question still stands. Why do you think you're attracted to making films that put you in risky situations and that put you in extreme situations? It's one thing to have in the film a metaphor, like dragging a ship over a mountain, but it's another thing to actually have to do it in your film. You know, at that point, it's not a metaphor at that point, it's something your crew has to do.
- [04:44]
Werner Herzog
I hear you. Yes, but I'm not searching for finding my boundaries or some. The extreme mountain climbers do that. That's not my thing. I know my boundaries and I accept them. And I take no as an answer. For example, and I'm a person, I'm a filmmaker, and I want to come back with a film, and I want to come back alive, because I want to edit the film and I want to show it to audiences. So, for example, at the edge of a volcano, yes, there were certain dangers. And there was an eruption, and glowing slabs or blobs of lava came down on us, raining down, and some of them very large. I mean, the size of. The size of a car, the size even of a truck. So you better flee quickly. You get out of it. But I'm not searching the dangers. The nature of my storytelling sometimes requires to go into extreme situations. Yes, but I think to look deep into our human nature, to look deep into the darkest recesses of our soul or the Hidden things deep in our soul. You have to put human beings at some sort of an edge.
- [06:14]
Terry Gross
You grew up in extreme circumstances during World War II in Munich and then in remote part of Bavaria in the mountains, where you were poor. And there was one time where your mother, when you were living in Bavaria during the war, took you and your brother up a slope to get a better view of Rosenheim, a city in Bavaria that had been bombed and was on fire. And you describe it as a vast inferno, tracing the terrible pulse of the end of the world on the night sky. I knew that outside of our tight valley there was a whole world that was dangerous and spectral. Not that I was afraid of it. I was curious to know it. A lot of people would have been afraid of it. Why were you more curious to know it?
- [06:58]
Werner Herzog
Well, I was too young, you see, number one. When my mother fled Munich, I was only two weeks old, 14 days old, when there was carpet bombing on Munich. Of course, there's no memory, anything. The childhood was very, very closed and very beautiful. But when I was two and a half, and it's my very first memory, my mother wakes us up abruptly in the middle of the night. It must have been April 1945. And she says, you have to see it, boys. Wraps us in blankets, rushes up on a slope. And at the end of the valley, the entire sky was red and orange, but not flickering because Rosenheim is 40 miles away. So the entire sky is pulsing slowly, red and orange. And that somehow is embedded in my memory forever. And of course, I knew all of a sudden there's something out there. There's a world out there. There's war out there. There's a conflagration out there. And I became curious. And it's strange because my two brothers who grew up with me did not move out and were that curious. They were very successful in their professions, but not like one who would move to Antarctica or to the jungle or to the Sahara Desert to do my work.
- [08:33]
Terry Gross
So when you were young, you got into a fight with your older brother and you stabbed him in the wrist and the thigh. There was blood all over. And you write that you realized you urgently needed some self discipline. What did you do to acquire that self discipline?
- [08:50]
Werner Herzog
It was from one moment to the next, I knew that something like that cannot happen again. And that's how a character is being formed. Defeats, catastrophes that I created. And of course, that shaped my character. And from one moment to the next, I knew. You have to control what is wild in you. You have to be disciplined. And until today, 90% of what you see when you meet me is discipline. People think, yeah, I'm the wild guy out there. And so, no, it's. I'm a disciplined professional. And at that time, family, of course, was important because we grew up with our mother, who raised us. We were three brothers and one mother. We lived in one single room in a sort of pension, we called it. It's a boarding house. And of course, we had clashes like brothers would have. And until today, it's mysterious to foreigners. Not long ago, a few years ago, I visited my older brother in Spain, where he had built himself a big house and had a wonderful sailing boat. And we were at a fish restaurant, and he. I studied the menu, and he put his arm around my shoulder. And all of a sudden, I feel some stinging thing in my back, and I smell smoke. And I realize he has set my shirt on fire with his cigarette lighter. And we laughed so hard, and everybody around on the table was appalled. But sometimes. That's how brothers sometimes function. And I love him dearly, and we do mischievous things to. It does happen, and it's not that serious. You see, somebody gave me his T shirt, and we cooled my back with a few glasses of Prosecco, and that was that.
- [11:05]
Terry Gross
That strikes me as slightly less than hilarious and kind of dangerous.
- [11:10]
Werner Herzog
No, it was hilarious. I mean, come on, a shirt doesn't really burn. I mean, it glows and glimmers a little bit. But that was his joke.
- [11:21]
Terry Gross
You know, you talk about wanting to see the dark recesses of the soul, but you also write, when it comes to your soul, that you'd rather die than go to an analyst because it's your view that something fundamentally wrong happens there. And you say it's a mistake to light up your soul, shadows and darkness and all. Why do you not want to light up your own soul but want to explore the dark recesses of other people's souls?
- [11:49]
Werner Herzog
Well, that's my profession. That's my profession as a poet. And you look deep into who we are and you describe it, but you shouldn't make the mistake to believe that memoirs are confessional. I'm not into that business. And I never liked too deep introspection. There's enough. In my memoirs, there's enough introspection. There's no doubt it's in there, but to a certain limit. And I do not want to step beyond a certain threshold. It is not healthy if you circle too much around your own navel. And it is not good to recall all the trauma of your childhood. It's good to forget them. It's good to bury them. Not in all cases, but in most cases. So psychoanalysis is doing that. I do not deny that it is good and necessary. In a very few cases, yes, I admit it, but it's not my thing. When I keep telling men. So, you see, rather dead than going to a psychiatrist, but at the same time rather dead than ever wearing a toupee. You see, my hair is thinning and I just accept it as it is. No, sick. Rather dead. Yeah.
- [13:23]
Terry Gross
It's nice to know you have your values straight.
- [13:26]
Werner Herzog
And women would immediately. Would immediately agree with me. You cannot live with a man who starts to wear toupee and thinks he is handsome now and rejuvenated.
- [13:43]
Terry Gross
Are you afraid of what you'd see if you shone a light on your soul?
- [13:49]
Werner Herzog
No. No. I know who I am and I know where I come from and I know where I'm heading toward. No fear and no regrets. Sure, I made massive mistakes and I'm in a way, a result of my own defeats. So be it. They formed me. They made me. They made me thinking beyond what I normally thought before.
- [14:20]
Terry Gross
One of the films that made you famous is Aguer, the Wrath of God. And this is a film about a conquistador leading a Spanish expedition in South America searching for El Dorado, the city of gold. And he goes mad along the way. He calls himself the Wrath of God. What interests you about a mind that makes you want to write about it or, you know.
- [14:47]
Werner Herzog
Yeah. Well, there are somehow touching a chord that's in us. Something mad or borderline mad. Something of power and dementia and madness. And through such figures, all of a sudden we have it spelled out. We can feel it, we can touch it, we can read it and sense it and start to compare it. Where I am standing, how mad am I myself?
- [15:22]
Terry Gross
Do you feel like you are mad?
- [15:24]
Werner Herzog
No, no. I'm the only one in the entire profession who is clinically sane.
- [15:30]
Terry Gross
Explain that.
- [15:32]
Werner Herzog
Oh, come on. I wouldn't have made some 80 films without having my wits together and my sanity and my professionalism. I'm the only. When you look at the craze of Hollywood and all these red carpet events and the statements at the red carpet which are all performative. It's all performative. Borderline insanity in a way. Or saccharine pink, sort of vanilla ice cream emotions. I'm the only one who is sane. The only one.
- [16:11]
Terry Gross
All right, I'm definitely taking your word for it.
- [16:14]
Werner Herzog
Please make sure. And you can read it. Every single line in My memoirs shows you that I'm absolutely sane in an ocean of craze.
- [16:29]
Terry Gross
Aguirre is about a Spanish conquistador who goes mad. And you can argue that Fitzcarraldo is a little mad, too. And the actor who you got to play both of them is Klaus Kinski, who you describe as a madman. And you knew him since you were 13 and he was 36 and you were living in the same boarding house, and you knew he'd go into rages. You'd witnessed his rages. Did it seem like a good idea to you to have somebody who seemed mad play Mad Men? Or was it just your confidence in him as an actor?
- [17:06]
Werner Herzog
We have to be careful. I said it. Yes, he was mad in moments of paranoia, but he had splendid moments of friendship and warmth and insight. So he had quite a few facets. And of course, since I lived in the same boarding house directly with him and saw the tornado laying waste to the entire apartment, so I knew what was coming at me when some nine or ten years later, I invited him him to play the leading part in the Wrath of God. I knew it was going to be difficult, but I said to me what the real task now is. Since he's such an incredible actor, since he has such a presence and dynamic and authority on the screen, I have to domesticate the wild beast somehow. All his crazy attitudes should not explode outside of the Scream during a dinner or after dinner where he opens fire at a hut full of extras. It shouldn't happen. It should be all somehow organized for the screen itself. And I think that was my achievement.
- [18:26]
Terry Gross
Outside of him actually firing into the tent, into the hut, which happened. So I guess you were partially successful with that.
- [18:36]
Werner Herzog
No, not partially successful. I was successful because I made five films with him. And they all, when you look at them, and forget about Kinski and forget about his private crazed personality and his egomania, forget about all this. There are five films out there that have something that you normally do not see in a movie. A presence and an intensity of a leading character that's unprecedented. I have only a few precedents out there, like the young Marlon Brando, for example. And no matter how difficult it was to tame him, to domesticate the beast, it doesn't matter. The only thing, the only. Only thing that counts. What do you see on a screen?
- [19:30]
Terry Gross
Well, you can't argue that his presence isn't remarkable on screen. I mean, you can't take your eyes off of him. But there is that thing that one person had part of his finger shot off when Kinski fired into the bamboo hut. So, I mean, that matters, too. I mean, I understand that what really matters to you as a filmmaker is what you see on screen. But there was some collateral damage.
- [19:58]
Werner Herzog
Yes, but that was the most serious thing that ever happened. And of course, it is serious, and you have to cope with it. And I threatened Kinski. I was actually there are wild rumors about it that I had a gun in my hands. And so that's not true. But I threatened him, and he understood this was not a joke anymore and he had to be disciplined from now on. And through all the other films I made with him, never anything of this magnitude ever happened.
- [20:38]
Tanya Moseley
Filmmaker Werner Herzog talking to Terry Gross last year. His memoir, every man for Himself and God against all, is now out in paperback. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Moseley, and this is FRESH air.
- [20:52]
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- [21:22]
Terry Gross
Hi, it's Marielle Segarra from Life.
- [21:24]
Werner Herzog
Kid.
- [21:25]
Tanya Moseley
There's a first time for everything, including giving to npr. Whether you're a brand new listener or a longtime fan, please join the community.
- [21:33]
Terry Gross
Of NPR Network supporters today. Make your gift@donate.NPR.org and thank you.
- [21:41]
Kunle
This message comes from NPR sponsor Comcast. Every day, thousands of Comcast engineers and technologists put people at the heart of everything they create. Like Kunle, a Comcast engineer with two teenage boys at home, Kunle thinks about the generation that he is building technology for. This continues to inspire him and his team to build a fast and reliable in home wi fi solution for millions of families like kids so everyone can work, learn and play together under one roof. Learn more@comcastcorporation.com you grew up well, your.
- [22:13]
Terry Gross
Very early years were during World War II, and then you grew up in the aftermath. Your father was a Nazi and he fought in the war, but he was mostly like in the supply room, I think.
- [22:24]
Werner Herzog
Yeah.
- [22:24]
Terry Gross
Yeah. And your mother was briefly a National Socialist. Did they talk with you ever about Nazism?
- [22:31]
Werner Herzog
We didn't talk that much. My mother, it was obvious she was very early on embarrassed about having been misguided and she practically, of course, she had to raise all alone. Three children. There was no money. My father never paid anything to support us. And she became a completely different person. And of course, it was always lingering out there. And of course I was fascinated by what happened to Germany. How is it possible that within a few years such a cultured nation lapses into. Transforms into a world of barbarism?
- [23:20]
Terry Gross
Well, even your father. Your father was from an academic family. I mean, he was from a very educated family. He was an academic himself. So you must have wondered the same about your father. How could somebody who was educated, from a very educated family.
- [23:34]
Werner Herzog
Yes, and it happened to many other educated families. There was no one spared. I mean, Germany was almost 100% Nazi. The dissidents, yes, they were out there, but they ended up in concentration camps very quickly.
- [23:53]
Terry Gross
You know, your mother took you to Bavaria in the mountains to escape the bombing. But in retrospect, she also escaped the Nazis. She escaped her own country. I mean, her own people.
- [24:06]
Werner Herzog
In a way, yes. But of course, in this village there were also Nazis.
- [24:11]
Terry Gross
In Europe. Oh, sure, I hadn't thought of that. Did you know that?
- [24:13]
Werner Herzog
Yes, there were also Nazis. Well, much later. It took some time, I thought. I didn't even know what Germany was. It was the valley where we grew up in this remote place. And the waterfall in the gorge behind the house. That was our world. And of course, the daily struggle. We had no running water. You had to go to the well with a bucket. We didn't have any running water in the house. So my shower was the ice cold water of the waterfall deep in the gorge. And. And hardly any electricity. I didn't know of the existence of cinema until I was 11. I think the first time I noticed that there was something like Germany. I must have been seven or eight years old. For me, the world was around me. And that was it. And of course, I started to question and I started to understand. How does chaos and barbarism invade a fairly organized country? And that's why I wanted to go to the chaos of eastern Congo after its independence, which I never reached. And I probably wouldn't have survived it.
- [25:33]
Terry Gross
Your parents had to undergo denazification after the war?
- [25:36]
Werner Herzog
Yes.
- [25:37]
Terry Gross
Did they ever tell you what that entailed?
- [25:40]
Werner Herzog
My mother. My father was always outside of my life. I hardly knew him.
- [25:45]
Terry Gross
Your father, you hardly knew? Did your mother tell you?
- [25:48]
Werner Herzog
Yes, but not very much. It was fairly laconic. And she said, look at me, that's me now. And I did a very, very severe mistake in my life. And my Character had to readjust. I'm a different person. I think differently now. And so I accepted it. And for example, she was never a racist, never deep into Nazi ideology at all.
- [26:26]
Terry Gross
How do you think growing up during the war affected you, even though you were at a remove from it in the mountains, in the war and its.
- [26:35]
Werner Herzog
Aftermath, it is more the aftermath and the restrictions. For example, I noticed that we were hungry. That was the only thing that was really hard to take. Otherwise that we lived in very deep poverty. I didn't notice. It was a normal thing. And everyone around us was impoverished. And so it was nothing really special. Only much later I understood what poverty meant. But that I had gone through it never affected me.
- [27:13]
Terry Gross
Although you say that. I'm wondering if you're thinking at all about the children in Israel and in Gaza. Like children in Israel were kidnapped, there's been missile attacks, children in Gaza have getting bombed. Many children have been killed. I'm wondering if you're thinking about that a lot now.
- [27:33]
Werner Herzog
Yes. You have somebody talking to you who grew up in a war. We were bombed out. There was a foot of glass shard and bricks and debris on my cradle when I was 14 days old. And then of course, I grew up in post war time, starvation, poverty. And since I had this experience, for me it's obvious that there shouldn't be any war. I'm against any war at all. And of course it is terrible what we are witnessing now. It is terrible. It is terrible and it shouldn't be. But what can I do? I cannot fight as a volunteer in this war.
- [28:29]
Terry Gross
Well, would you if you could? It sounds like you're against war and wouldn't want to participate in one.
- [28:35]
Werner Herzog
You know, why would participate if in Germany all of a sudden, Neo Nazis started a rebellion, an armed rebellion, a coup d'etat. You would know who would be first one to rush back and pick up a weapon. It would be me. I would fight because. Because something like times of the barbarism of the Nazis must not repeat itself. You see, as long as there is breath in me, I would fight.
- [29:09]
Terry Gross
I understand that.
- [29:12]
Werner Herzog
And of course, having caused. Having created the Holocaust, Germany has specific attention to Israel. There's no doubt. But we also now, since it will be terrible what's coming, we also have to look after all the casualties on both sides.
- [29:36]
Terry Gross
We need to take another short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is writer and filmmaker Werner Herzog. His new memoir is called Every man for Himself and God Against All. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.
- [29:50]
Tanya Moseley
Hi, I'm Laurel Wamsley, and I cover personal finance for npr. That means I report on some of the questions that might keep you or your loved ones up at night, like will I ever be able to buy a home? What about retirement? As interest rates drop, where should I put my money? Economic headlines can be confusing, but NPR is here to help you make sense of them. To support this coverage, please give today@donate.NPR.org from the online trends that dominated 2024.
- [30:18]
Carvana
On the spectrum of brat to demure, where are you right now?
- [30:21]
Tanya Moseley
To Spicy TikTok Viral reads, these romance fantasy books about dragons. NPR kept you up to speed on pop culture all year long. Give back to the news source that just hits different by donating today@donate.NPR.org and thank you. Evergreen trees are Pacific Northwest icons in journalism. An evergreen story isn't tied to one news cycle. It goes deep and helps you un understand the world. The Evergreen is also a podcast from OPB about the Northwest.
- [30:51]
Terry Gross
I'm Jen Chavez.
- [30:52]
Tanya Moseley
Listen to the Evergreen podcast from OPB every Monday, part of the NPR Network.
- [30:58]
Terry Gross
The first time you narrated a film was when you made a film for a production company in Germany that specialized in extreme subjects. And you did a film for them about ski jumping, which you knew a lot about, having grown up in the mountains in Bavaria. And you used to, like, build God, what are they called? Like, platforms to jump off to, ski off of?
- [31:20]
Werner Herzog
Ramps.
- [31:21]
Terry Gross
Ramps, yes. And got terribly injured during one of those. And a friend of yours got terribly injured on one of his jumps. But anyway, so you made a documentary about that, and they told you you have to narrate it because that's what everybody does. They narrate their own films. And you've become famous for your narrations in films, in your documentaries. And you've had some movie roles, including in Jack Reacher in the Mandalorian, which is like a Star wars spinoff parodying yourself on the Simpsons. And they're all like sinister roles. What do you think it is about your voice that gets you cast in sinister roles? Maybe it's the content of what you're saying.
- [32:09]
Werner Herzog
Yes, the content, of course. And since then, I narrated my own, my own writings, my own commentaries, and I had found my voice, but it's a stylized voice. When I'm talking to you, I'm talking like me in commentaries. There's a certain stylization, a certain performance in it, a certain hypnotic voice in it. I can't describe it easily. And it has caught on. Audiences love it, so I do it for them as well. I do films for audiences, I write my book for readers, so I'm enjoying it. And I have been good in parts, in roles where I have to play the badass bad guy, like in Jack Reacher. Or where, for example, in a film by Harmony Corridor which is called Julian Donkey Boy, I play a hostile who harasses his dysfunctional family. And I'm good at that, but it's all performance. Don't believe, don't ever believe I'm like that. As a private person.
- [33:28]
Terry Gross
That's good to know. Can you quote any of the lines?
- [33:33]
Werner Herzog
No, not really. But you know when Jack Reacher was released, it was released in France. Well, my wife immediately gets frantic calls from her girlfriend in Paris and she says, lena, are you really married to that man? We can give you shelter if you need to flee. We are only an overnight flight away. And Lena laughed so hard and told me about it. And of course she will testify that I'm a mild mannered, fluffy husband. She came up with that and I live with her happily now since 28 years. She will give you the right testimony.
- [34:18]
Terry Gross
Good. So we're about at the end of the interview and I have to say you made it through without being shot at because you were shot at at the BBC, or at least you were shot and only mildly wounded. Like what was that about? Do you have any idea what would have happened?
- [34:36]
Werner Herzog
No, we do not know because I just heard somebody across the street on a veranda ranting like road rage. And all of a sudden I heard some sort of a mild explosion in something like a glowing piece of metal, like a kilo weight of glowing metal hits me at my belt or near my belt, and I thought something at the camera had exploded, but now. And I saw then the man with a rifle ducking down and disappearing. And I did not know because I did not want to call police. I said to the crew, BBC people, you are frantically now dialing 911. Consider it. We'll spend the next six hours filing reports at a police station and we will have a helicopter over US and the SWAT team arriving in 5 minutes flat. Do we need that? Do you want that? And so we decided we'd just continue shooting, but at a safer place.
- [35:48]
Terry Gross
Were you outside when that happened?
- [35:50]
Werner Herzog
Yes, it was outside and you can still see it on YouTube. It's funny because people think it was all staged and made up. No, it was not. It was reality. It was the real world. And of course, in a world of fake News and inventions and embellishments. And so people believe that being shot and hit, not seriously, but anyway, that it must have been made up or having moved a ship over a mountain. That must have been a digital effect and we are only pretending now I moved the ship, so you have to connect yourself to the real world. And then all of a sudden my memoirs become the most natural thing. A man who lived a very normal life with a few things that were exceptional. And I think it's not exceptional to move a ship over a mountain. Every grown up man should do something like that.
- [36:57]
Terry Gross
Did you go to the emergency room after you were shot?
- [37:00]
Werner Herzog
No, because we could see I was bleeding, but I could see it was. The bullet went through all my leather jacket and a folded up catalog and all my shirt and T shirt, but it did not perforate my abdominal. It did not perforate and go into my abdomen. If it had been inside of me, lodged in my intestines, in that case I would have gone to the emergency room. But I can distinguish what is serious and what can be taken and tolerated. So I do my best and I think in this case I did my best as well.
- [37:45]
Terry Gross
I should hope you would have gone to the emergency room if it penetrated during tests.
- [37:48]
Werner Herzog
Well, I would have gone, sure. Yes.
- [37:51]
Terry Gross
Okay. So what's next for you?
- [37:54]
Werner Herzog
Well, I just finished another book, the Future of Truth, which will be released next spring, but in its German original. What you have in front of you is a very fine translation of my memoirs, but it always takes until it's being translated, so it will take about a year. And I made also two films that are not fully released yet. And I'm working on some poetry, and I'm working on a translation of poetry by a Canadian writer on Datje. And, well, I'm just plowing on wildly.
- [38:42]
Terry Gross
Do you ever stop working?
- [38:44]
Werner Herzog
Yes, I have long hours of sleep. I'm fairly late. My days of shooting are brief, My hours of writing are brief. I do my tax returns three hours in the morning, then I write three hours memoirs and I go to the pharmacy or whatever, so. But I write 15 pages, it goes fast, and next day another 10, 15 pages. Because it's my life, I have lived it and it's in me, you see. It's not foreign, it's in me. And because of that I can describe it for you and you will not be disappointed.
- [39:30]
Terry Gross
Thank you so much for coming back to our show. I really appreciate it and I really enjoyed our conversation.
- [39:36]
Werner Herzog
Oh, so did I. I enjoyed it. Thank you, Werner.
- [39:40]
Tanya Moseley
Herzog speaking with Terry Gross last year. His memoir is called Every man for Himself and God Against All. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews the new film Queer, set in Mexico in the 1950s, starring Daniel Craig as an expat infatuated with a younger man. This is FRESH air.
- [40:00]
Carvana
This is Eric Glass on this American Life. We specialize in compelling stories from everyday life.
- [40:05]
Terry Gross
I was like, wow, you literally just died and came back and the first thing you asked is do you need any money?
- [40:14]
Carvana
Real life stories, really good ones in your podcast feed. This American Live.
- [40:24]
Werner Herzog
Ho ho ho.
- [40:25]
Carvana
Santa here coming to you from the North Pole, where the elves in our podcast division have just completed work on this season's best gift for public radio lovers, NPR. Plus give the gift of sponsored free listening and even bonus episodes from your favorite NPR podcasts, all while supporting public media. Learn more at plus.NPR.org.
- [40:49]
Kunle
If you're the kind of person whose idea of a good party conversation starts with I heard it on npr, it might be time to take your super fandom seriously. Deck yourself out in sale NPR swag, from T shirts to ball caps to the almighty NPR tote, all at 25% off through Nov. 27 at shop.npr.org the.
- [41:10]
Tanya Moseley
Italian director Luca Guadagnino scored a critical and commercial hit earlier this year with a tennis themed romantic triangle challengers. Now he's back with Queer, an adaptation of William S. Burroughs autobiographical novel. It stars Daniel Craig as an American living in 1950s Mexico City who falls hard for a younger man. Queer is now playing in theaters, and our film critic Justin Chang has this review.
- [41:40]
Carvana
Nobody does forbidden longing in far off places quite like Luca Guadagnino. He whisked us off to Italy for the passionate affairs of I am Love and Call me by your name, gave us love and death on a Sicilian island in a bigger splash, and took us all across America in the cannibal romance, bones and all. Now he's made Queer, a moody account of thwarted longing that begins in an expat heavy corner of Mexico City during the early 1950s, a world that Guadagnino brings to life in all its sweaty, scuzzy glory. The story follows an American drifter named William Lee, played by Daniel Craig, with a loosh smile and nary a hint of 007 elegance. Addicted to booze and heroin, Lee spends his days hopping from bar to bar, hoping to lock eyes and more with the handsome young men he spots there and around town. And few are more handsome than Eugene Allerton, a freshly discharged US Navy serviceman played by a terrific Drew Starkey. Allerton is trim, slender and aloof to the point of disdainful, which makes Lee lust for him all the more. In time. After a few meals and many drinks, the two fall into bed in a scene that Guadagnino films with both roughness and tenderness. But once isn't enough for Lee, and he spends every minute trying to keep this enigmatic young beauty from slipping away. At one point, a drunken Lee approaches Allerton at a party and causes a bit of a scene, prompting a friend, Tom, to intervene.
- [43:23]
Werner Herzog
I want to talk to you.
- [43:28]
Carvana
Singing.
- [43:31]
Werner Herzog
Without speaking. I want to touch you like. Like. Like. Like the Russian? Yeah.
- [43:42]
Carvana
Like the mind.
- [43:44]
Tanya Moseley
All right, Bill, let's.
- [43:46]
Werner Herzog
Hey, let's take it easy, huh? Hey, Tommy, come on. You got a drink, Tom? Yeah.
- [43:56]
Terry Gross
Cup of water, maybe.
- [43:58]
Carvana
Lee is a fictionalized stand in for the beat writer William S. Burroughs, whose years spent living in Mexico were eventful, to say the least. He began writing Queer in 1952 while awaiting trial for the killing of his wife, Joan Vollmer, during a drunken game of William Tell. Burroughs never finished the book, which was finally published in its incomplete form in 1985. By that point, he had become a countercultural icon known for his boldly experimental works like Naked Lunch, his struggles with addiction, and his many sexual relationships with men and women. Guadagnino has said in interviews that he read Queer at a young age and has wanted to film it for years. That may surprise some of the director's fans, since his swoony romanticism on display in the recent Challengers isn't an obvious fit with the biting rawness of Burroughs prose. At the same time, Guadagnino clearly likes to push against expectations, and his horror movies like Suspiria, have shown a flair for the surreal and grotesque even when Queer's narrative loses momentum. It's fascinating to see a filmmaker known for his lush, beautiful surfaces try to connect with a writer's famously uncompromising ugliness. For the first hour or so, the screenplay by Justin Kuritzkas, is largely faithful to its source. But things take a weird turn once Lee talks Allerton into a trip to South America so they can find a psychedelic called Yahe or Ayahuasca, which can apparently confer telepathic powers deep in the jungles of Ecuador. Guadagnino essentially tries to imagine the mind blowing ending that Burroughs never wrote. The director is clearly having fun, filling the screen with hallucinatory imagery and introducing a gun toting healer played by an unrecognizable Leslie Manville. In one maddening and mesmerizing sequence. A drugged out Lee and Allerton dance silently in the news, their bodies twisting and melting together as though under a kaleidoscope. Guadagnino is working overtime to honor Burroughs in the thoroughly bonkers epilogue set back in Mexico. He goes well beyond the parameters of the novel to weave in moments from the writer's tumultuous life. But the reason Queer works as well as it does has everything to do with Craig's performance. It's worth remembering that long before he became James Bond or a gay detective in the Knives out movies, Craig played the tempestuous younger lover of the painter Francis bacon in the 1998 drama Love is the Devil. He flips that equation brilliantly in Queer, with robust physicality and delicate emotion, he shows us a man in wretched yet defiant thrall to his wants for sex, for love, for a moment of out of body transcendence. It's a singular performance, but also in its expression of pure desire, a deeply human one.
- [47:14]
Tanya Moseley
Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker. He reviewed the new movie Queer, starring Daniel Craig on Monday's show. Jon Batiste, former bandleader of the Late show with Stephen Colbert, joins us at the piano to play his reimaginings of Beethoven's music. His new album is Beethoven Blues. He'll also talk about the extremes in his life in 2022, when he won multiple Grammys and his wife had a recurrence of leukemia and a bone marrow transplant. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get high of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram @NPRFreshAir. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorak. Audrey Bentham is our technical director and engineer with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld and Diana Martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonato, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly CV Nesper and Sabrina Siewert with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Mosely.
- [48:40]
Carvana
Hey, it's Peter Sagal, the host of Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me Now. If you like Wait, Wait. And you're looking for another podcast where the hosts take self deprecating jabs at themselves and invite important guests on who have no business being there, then you should check out NPR's how to Do Everything. It's hosted by two of the minds behind. Wait, wait. Who literally sometimes put words in my mouth. Find the how to Do Everything podcast wherever you are currently listening to me. Go on about it. Consider this is a daily news podcast and lately the news is about a big question. How much can one guy change? What will change look like for energy?
- [49:15]
Terry Gross
Drill baby, Drill schools, take the department.
- [49:18]
Werner Herzog
Education, close it.
- [49:19]
Carvana
Health care better and less expensive. Follow coverage of a changing country.
- [49:23]
Werner Herzog
Promises made, promises kept. We're going to keep our promises on.
- [49:26]
Carvana
Consider this the afternoon news podcast from npr.