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- [00:00]
Sponsor/Announcer
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- [00:20]
Anne Marie Baldonado
I'm Anne Marie Baldonado sitting in for Terry Gross, who's homesick today. Our guest is award winning actor, writer and director Will Sharpen. You may have first encountered him in the second season of the White Lotus where he played Ethan, a newly wealthy tech founder whose marriage may be unraveling. For that role, he received an Emmy nomination for best supporting actor in a drama. But Sharpe had been noticed for his work. Already. He's been nominated for numerous baftas. That's the UK Equivalent of the Oscars and Emmys for writing and creating shows like Flowers, a comedy about a family struggling with depression, grief and loneliness. He received a BAFTA for acting in the BBC Netflix series Jirihaji. More recently, he's appeared in Lena Dunham's series Too Much and the Oscar winning film A Real Pain. Now he stars as Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart in a new limited series, Amadeus, adapted from the 1979 stage play. The play was also the basis of the 1984 film. It tells a fictionalized story of the rivalry between Mozart and the court composer Antonio Salieri, who's played by Paul Bettany. Salieri becomes increasingly consumed by envy after realizing Mozart possesses the musical brilliance Salieri desperately prays for but can never attain. Here's a scene from the beginning of the series. 25 year old Mozart has arrived in Vienna hoping to build his reputation by composing operas and performing for the emperor's court. He meets Salieri at a court celebration. Salieri, a fan of Mozart's work, is shocked to find that Mozart is immature and irreverent, not a pious genius like his work would suggest. Here's Mozart introducing himself.
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Will Sharpe
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.
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Antonio Salieri (actor)
Antonio Salieri, the court composer. Yes.
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Will Sharpe
This is incredibly fortuitous. The whole reason why I came to Vienna was to write for the Imperial Opera.
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Antonio Salieri (actor)
Well, there's a process to all of that.
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Will Sharpe
I wouldn't. They're a bit tight. You must at least be able to get me one meeting with the emperor.
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Antonio Salieri (actor)
It's a very busy man.
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Will Sharpe
What could be more important than this?
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Antonio Salieri (actor)
Them meeting you? Well, I believe he's currently drawing up plans to ensure our nation's claim on the kingdom of Bavaria. I suppose that might be taking up some of his time.
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Will Sharpe
Please, just one meeting. I'll be forever in your debt, obviously.
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Anne Marie Baldonado
Will Sharp. Welcome to Fresh air.
- [03:09]
Will Sharpe
Hello. Thanks for having me.
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Anne Marie Baldonado
What was it about this story that made you want to be part of it?
- [03:15]
Will Sharpe
I guess there was something exciting in our sort of very early conversations about the project of the possibility. Because the shape of this is a sort of five hour limited series that there's a little bit more space perhaps to sit with Amadeus and also sit with Constanza, his wife, and kind of see it from their point of view. And I guess I was sort of interested by this idea of like apocryphally. Certainly in the story of Amadeus there's this sense that Mozart was someone for whom like music just fell out of the sky into his lap. But I was sort of curious to sort of try and imagine what does that actually look and feel like in his day to day life and to try and sort of humanize that somehow.
- [04:03]
Anne Marie Baldonado
I mean, the music does come to him, but it takes a toll. Like there's a burden to it.
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Will Sharpe
Yeah, I mean, I guess Paul and I would often sort of play who played Salieri. That's right, yeah. We would often talk about the story, I guess, in trying to understand it in kind of like grounded terms or sort of playable terms. We'd often think of it as two brothers to a common father in God. And Salieri feels neglected by God and that Mozart is getting all of the attention and is having music showered upon him, in spite of him being so much less pious than Salieri, who sort of like immaculately behaved and feels like in spite of that, he's not getting what. What he needs from God, he's not getting the attention he needs. Whereas Amadeus, I think, feels really run ragged and kind of like a vessel for God's music. Sure, but at what cost?
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Anne Marie Baldonado
What did you do to prepare for this role? Did you learn about the historic figure? Even if the story of Mozart and Salieri was always a reimagining.
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Will Sharpe
So, I mean, the main preparation, I guess, was learning to play the piano pieces.
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Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Yes.
- [05:09]
Will Sharpe
Which you did. Which I did, yeah. And that was like six, seven months of piano lessons and you know, just drilling specifically the pieces on camera and then also, I guess, preparing for the conducting scenes where we tried to come up with a kind of hybrid language where in the day it would have been very metronomic, quite unexpressive. And obviously now we're used to seeing, you know, slightly more freeform seeming, very expressive conducting. And so we tried to find a language that blended the two, I think. Cause so much of what is expressed in the show, for my character in particular. He's not very good at communicating with words. So a lot of the time, the story or what is going on within him is expressed through the big musical set pieces. So there was that kind of practical preparation, which I actually found quite helpful because it was a way of meditating on the character without sort of getting in my head. It was like something very specific and mechanical to practice. And you find yourself thinking about the story but not overthinking it. It was almost like a kind of meditative practice or something. And then I did find that listening to Mozart's was an incredibly helpful way of just kind of sinking into it. And it's not like a resource that you normally have. And even just thinking about the sheer range of his music, but also of his seemingly. Of his personality, where he's just very light and funny and playful at one end and super grand and dark and operatic at the other. And trying to marry all of that into one person found it just kind of, you know, if I had an hour free walking around Budapest with that in my ears, was quite helpful, too.
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Anne Marie Baldonado
There's part of the series when Mozart is composing the opera the Marriage of Figaro. He's kind of estranged from his wife, Constanze. He's left Vienna to try to write, and he's with his collaborator in a pub. I'm making it sound kind of modern, but he's speaking to a woman in a pub, and it's a woman he just met, and he plays some of the music he has for her. And the woman asks if he's writing the opera for his wife, and Mozart says yes. And then the woman says, couldn't you just talk to her? And Mozart says, this is how I talk. And I was wondering about that idea, that idea that someone can't talk or express themselves in life, and instead they express themselves or express what they really feel through their music, through a work of art, and trying to say what they can't say. And I was just wondering what you thought about that part of Mozart's struggle.
- [07:42]
Will Sharpe
I felt like it became a really important piece of it for me. And actually that line, I think, just came out in the rehearsing of the scene or as we shot, trying to sort of get to the bottom, I think, of who he was and what his predicament was, I guess. And it more and more felt like, you know, enjoyably, like he doesn't know how to read a room. There's a lot written kind of speculatively about neurodiversity, and I tried not to sort of be too literal about that or to retro diagnose him, but definitely wanted to play him as slightly other. And he doesn't understand social norms or can't understand why people are offended. If he said something that he's like, well, I think that's true. So what's the problem? So he's just kind of like things that are simple to everyone else, he can't do and he can't communicate successfully in a kind of ordinary, normal way. But through his music, he's expressing a lot of what he isn't able to say day to day. And so I guess that's why those sequences felt quite important in terms of understanding him as a character and also understanding his story.
- [08:48]
Anne Marie Baldonado
In this series, we meet Mozart when he's around 25 years old. And it occurred to me that you got your first BAFTA nomination for your first film, Black Pond, when you were around that age. What were you feeling at that age about like that acclaim? Or did you feel pressure? Or maybe you didn't. I mean, maybe you were kind of, you know, Brazen, like the 25 year old Mozart we heard at the beginning of this piece.
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Will Sharpe
I definitely feel like in your early sort of endeavors, there's like an innocence that is kind of hard to recapture. You know, maybe you gain some wisdom in exchange. But I mean, even on Flowers, which was kind of my first proper grown up commission, you know, by Channel four, there was definitely a sense of kind of like you didn't know what could go wrong or what was in your way. And so there's like a real purity to how you approach it. And I feel like, you know, in. In the best moments, you maybe managed to recapture a sort of an echo of that. But I don't think it's a place you could ever go back to, you know, so there's definitely something really exhilarating and pure, I think, about those early, early endeavors.
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Anne Marie Baldonado
For any artist, it's like unguarded.
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Will Sharpe
Yeah. Yeah. And so you're not even, I suppose in answer to your question, more specifically, you're not even thinking about what the acclaim might be or what the end result is. That's just like a happy surprise if it happens. And it definitely was a complete shock. Yeah.
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Anne Marie Baldonado
I want to ask you about the series the White Lotus. You starred in season two, the one that takes place in Italy, and you play Ethan Spiller, who just got super rich as a tech bro and he's spending his vacation with his wife, Harper, played by Aubrey Plaza, and his college friend and his friend's wife. I Want to play a scene from the show? It's near the beginning here. Your character and Aubrey Plaza's character have been spending time with this other couple. It's clear that Harper doesn't like them, but she says she's trying to make nice. They're talking in bed, in their hotel room.
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Will Sharpe
Thanks for making more of an effort. I mean, yeah, they kind of live in a bubble, but they're fun, right?
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Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
They don't vote, Ethan.
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Will Sharpe
I know what the. They don't read the news.
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Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
They don't read. It's like, what do they even talk about? Is that what happens when you're rich for too long? Your brain just atrophies?
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Will Sharpe
I mean, they seem happy.
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Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
No way. It's a front.
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Will Sharpe
It's good to have, you know, diverse friends, I guess.
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Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
Yeah, I think we're their diverse friends. They're white. Passing, diverse friends.
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Sponsor/Announcer
Yeah, you're right.
- [11:45]
Anne Marie Baldonado
That's a scene from the White Lotus. I like this scene because it reminds me that part of what's happening with this couple is that they're newly rich and they're kind of uncomfortable with the opulence around them. And this super privileged white couple that they're spending all this time with, you know, this story of these couples then become a lot about marriage and trust and infidelity. But it's, you know, part of it is the fact that they both feel like outsiders, for sure.
- [12:11]
Will Sharpe
And I guess there was something. Something interesting about playing someone who. Part of the, like, inner conflict maybe was that he's sort of worried that he's becoming the thing that he hates or the thing that he's judged. Is he sort of morphing into that? Maybe. And it's impossible not to be aware, I guess, of, like. Of my ethnicity in the playing of it also. Not that it's super loud in the mix, but, you know, just. I guess I had an awareness of how he might feel as an Asian American man in that context, if that makes sense.
- [12:52]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Now you're a director and creator of television shows yourself, and you've said that you have this privilege of working with other directors and creators who are really focused and really retain control of their projects. Directors like Mike White. You said that he's a model for you about how to keep control of a show's voice while also giving audiences what they want. What do you mean by that?
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Will Sharpe
Yeah, I think Mike is just so precise in his tone and in his writing and how he kind of crafts anything that he's, you know, he's the author of it. Feels very deliberate. And that is something that I admire and something that I respect. But also he's managed to make a show that feels elevated and kind of true to him as a creator, but has reached a really wide audience. You know, like the White Lotus is hugely watched. And that also is something that I admire.
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Anne Marie Baldonado
I want to ask you about this series Too Much. Created by Lena Dunham, it's loosely based on Lena Dunham's experience moving from New York to London and meeting her husband, Louis Felber, who also co created the series and writes the music for the show. Megan Stalter plays the New Yorker moving to London after a breakup, and she meets your character Felix, who's a musician and recovering addict. The characters meet cute and they fall in love, but their relationship isn't easy. How would you describe your character, Felix?
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Will Sharpe
Felix, I guess, like, he just seemed like somebody who on the surface of it is quite, maybe seems cool or open, but actually quite quickly you realize he's a bit of a nerd. And also there's a lot going on that he doesn't want you to see. And, you know, a lot of the series. What I love about it is it's kind of about how your previous experiences in relationships can get in the way of your present day one and how, you know, can you get beyond the baggage that you carry with you. And each of those characters have, you know, do have baggage and are sort of contending with it.
- [15:19]
Anne Marie Baldonado
I want to play a clip from Too Much. In this scene, Megan Stalter's character Jess and Felix are running to get to a wedding in the countryside. Felix is someone who grew up very posh, went to boarding school until his family lost their money and he has to leave because they couldn't pay for school anymore. But he's still friends with a lot of the rich people he met as a kid, but he doesn't feel comfortable with them. Here's the scene where they're running to get to the church. Are you sure my outfit's okay? I've only been inside of a church once since To Donate Blood. I feel like I should be wearing a hat or something.
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Will Sharpe
Do you even have a hat?
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Anne Marie Baldonado
Like a beanie?
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Will Sharpe
Of course. Okay, listen, you probably haven't seen me like this before, but I actually feel pretty, like, weird. Like I kind of feel a bit fizzy, you know what I mean? Like, kind of tight. Like white, noisy.
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Anne Marie Baldonado
I mean, nervous.
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Will Sharpe
Yeah, maybe you look like you want to pass out. Woogie and Polly, like, these aren't really my people. Okay, well, why don't we just go
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Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
home and I could eat cheese toasties or something.
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Will Sharpe
I don't know. I feel so weirdly loyal to the groom because he was the only boy in my year who didn't call me Felix Ramen.
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Anne Marie Baldonado
It's like a racist nickname.
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Will Sharpe
Yes, a racist nickname. I'm not saying we can't be ourselves. I'm just saying, like, I don't know. You know what I'm saying?
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Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Right.
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Will Sharpe
Just sort of not our full selves.
- [16:37]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Yes. Over and out. I hear you, Mr. Felix. That's a scene from the Netflix show Too Much. Lena Dunham said that she loved having you on set, not only because of your acting, but because you're also a writer, a show creator and director. And she said that you contributed a lot to the character Felix, including the bit in that scene that the kids at the school called him Felix Raman. Can you talk about collaborating with Lena Dunham on this show and on your character?
- [17:08]
Will Sharpe
I mean, I think that's very generous of her to say, but she's sort of the agent of all of it, really. But I did feel very listened to, and I guess it did feel like we were always working together to find who he was, even from, like, our very first cup of tea to talk about it, you know, in London. And she definitely would. She has this, like, incredibly fast story brain and is able to retain information and encounters in a very sort of, like, formidable way. And sometimes we'd have, like, a very offhand conversation about a scene or an episode that was coming up, and then I'd see rewrites that seemed to kind of work that conversation into it. Yeah, with the Felix Reman thing, he. His name was Felix Rehman in the show, and I think I just was like, there is absolutely no way if his name was Felix Rehman and he's half Japanese and he went to that kind of school, that he wouldn't be called Felix Raman. There's just absolutely no way that he wouldn't be called Felix Rahman.
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Anne Marie Baldonado
Now in Too Much, your father is played by Stephen Fry, the British actor, writer and comedian. And he's someone who got his start at Cambridge University and in the comedy troupe Footlights. He was in the group in the 80s with people like Hugh Laurie and Emma Thompson. And you went to Cambridge University and joined Footlights. What did Stephen Fry mean to you as a kid?
- [18:31]
Will Sharpe
I mean, he was definitely, you know, like a huge comedy icon and was, you know, whether it be Fry and Laurie, the sketch show, or Blackadder, you know, it was somebody I really enjoyed watching as a kid. And maybe in some way would have been, you know, one of the reasons why I thought, oh, maybe if, if I'm at this university, being a part of this comedy group could be a fun thing to do. But he's also just like, he's just an incredible polymath. How prolific he is in how many different fields and how thoughtfully he talks about so many different subjects. I think he's kind of like just an extraordinary figure. He's just an extraordinary figure and yet, you know, on set, so sort of just humble and, you know, just like another person in the cast and kind of mucking in the rehearsals and noses lines. Very professional. And so, yeah, I was hugely excited to work with Stephen and to have met him.
- [19:30]
Anne Marie Baldonado
You also have this great scene that we couldn't use because there's too much cursing in it with the Richard E. Grant playing Megan Smith, Dalter's character's boss, but turns out his daughter had dated you back in boarding school. But he's drunk and he realizes it's you and it's this funny kind of play between the two of you.
- [19:50]
Will Sharpe
Yeah, I mean, that was a lot of fun. I mean, I loved the film, you know, with Nael and I growing up and the way that kind of I suppose was hilarious but also had like an emotional aspect. I think I watched it at quite formative age, around the time, you know, I remember like watching with Nell and I watching Harold and Maud and, you know, Hal Ashby's films and all those kinds of movies that seem to blend different feelings and tones. And so to work with him similarly was like kind of pinch me. But also to get to just have a really sloppy, messy fight with him. He is actually quite strong.
- [20:26]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Yes. He grabbed your leg at one point.
- [20:28]
Will Sharpe
Yeah.
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Anne Marie Baldonado
And doesn't seem to like that.
- [20:31]
Will Sharpe
Yeah.
- [20:32]
Anne Marie Baldonado
My guess is actor, writer and director Will Sharpe. He stars in the new limited series Amadeus. The series originally aired in the UK and is now available available on Starz. More after a break. This is FRESH air.
- [20:46]
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- [21:34]
Will Sharpe
Every single complex society that has ever existed in the history of the world so far has collapsed.
- [21:39]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Do we think we're different?
- [21:42]
Sponsor/Announcer
Are we doomed? The new podcast about the end of the world.
- [21:45]
Anne Marie Baldonado
I don't like where this is headed.
- [21:47]
Sponsor/Announcer
I'm Ben Bradford. Join me for Are We Doomed? Part of the NPR Network. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:58]
Anne Marie Baldonado
This is FRESH air. I'm Anne Marie Baldonado back with award winning actor, writer and director Will Sharp. He stars in the new limited series Amadeus. His other films and series include A Real Pain, the White Lotus, Too Much Jiri Haji, the Electric Life of Louis Wayne and Flowers. Now, you were born in England and then your family moved to Japan for your early childhood before then moving back to England. Could you describe what your childhood neighborhood was like when you were living those early years in Japan?
- [22:33]
Will Sharpe
I mean, very urban compared to like suburban Surrey where we moved to in England. I mean, I remember like the sound of the cicadas in the summer. And I don't know, a lot of it is quite a for me, like the sound of train stations in Tokyo or like near my grandma's house who just turned 100 last week. You know, there's like a chime that goes off at kind of 5pm every evening. And a lot of it, weirdly, I've not had this thought before. Maybe it's because I'm doing a radio show. So my brain is in like listening
- [23:11]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Sound is so important.
- [23:13]
Will Sharpe
But it does feel like a lot of it. It's quite, yeah, aural. But there's definitely like I'd often talk about like a kind of layer of nostalgia that I feel like is unavailable to me in England, where I can sort of reminisce up to a point. But there's like a sort of plane of memory or feeling or something that is that is left in Japan. And I would only get when I've, when I've been when I've gone back to Japan. And it's a weird thing where I think, you know, people who have lived in different countries or who are mixed race, you do sometimes end up with this feeling that you're not really sure where your home is or how to identify. And so, you know, if I go back to Japan, I can speak the language, but kind of in a very wobbly way where I Sound a bit like a 10 year old still. And I still feel like a very gaijin, you know, Western version of a Japanese person. I feel like a sort of foreigner, I suppose. And in the same way, in England, because I look Japanese, I've always felt a little bit like, yeah, like an outsider trying to kind of learn. Learn how people communicate in England, which can be sort of quite complicated at the best of times.
- [24:29]
Anne Marie Baldonado
I read that when you were a kid, you were already into sketch comedy and that you would stay up late and watch sketch shows. Was this when you were in Japan, what were you watching?
- [24:38]
Will Sharpe
I mean, various shows that I feel like probably have not aged well, but like Benny Hill. Not quite that, but maybe this sort of equip. Like there were lots of different sketch shows. Like Downtown Drifters, Tunnels was another one. And just.
- [24:56]
Anne Marie Baldonado
So these are British shows?
- [24:57]
Will Sharpe
No, these are Japanese shows.
- [24:58]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Oh, Japanese shows.
- [24:59]
Will Sharpe
Like really silly, silly, silly comedy shows. And almost built into it was like, can you make each other break? And that was part of the fun, was wondering which comedian was gonna start laughing. And then also sometimes some really low key sort of situational sketches where it might be about a boy whose parents had divorced and makes friends with a lizard in a park, but they're both played by just grown men. So there's like a man sat on a bench and he's just sort of talking to this lizard about his parents divorce. And really the only funny thing about it is that somebody is wearing a bright green lizard costume. But yeah, I mean, I did enjoy that. And I remember really loving the feeling of just being made to laugh hysterically
- [25:41]
Anne Marie Baldonado
and you move back to England. How old were you at that point? Was it hard to adjust back?
- [25:48]
Will Sharpe
I was 8. Yes, it was, it was, I think probably more than I realized at the time because like I say, a lot of what I write seems to sort of reflect back on that in some way, you know. And yeah, it definitely was an adjustment. And I definitely felt, yeah, like somebody trying to learn how to fit in and trying to learn, yeah, like new ways of communicating. And I've said this before as well, but I've weirdly, because I enjoyed creative writing exercises and had by that age maybe started to feel like, oh, if there's like a poetry homework assignment, I seem to get good feedback on that. I sort of had found a confidence in writing and so I felt like, weirdly, there was something quite empowering about being able to write the language, feeling sort of like I could write it well and was confident writing it. And that was a Way of almost like grounding myself in the country a little bit, even if I felt socially I didn't quite know how to communicate.
- [26:54]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Was writing kind of your first love? Like, is that the thing that you thought you were going to do?
- [27:00]
Will Sharpe
I don't know if I ever felt like it was possible to pursue it as a vocation because my parents do not come from creative backgrounds and was never really anywhere near that world. You know, my dad was really into books and I could tell that I enjoyed it. I didn't really have a sense that acting or comedy was a thing until quite a bit later, I think at school in my teens maybe. And I think I remember having some sort of version of a conversation with my mum where I was like, I don't really understand the big deal with acting. Isn't it just sort of pretending? And she was like, we'll do it then. And I was like, okay.
- [27:37]
Anne Marie Baldonado
So when do you think you really decided that it was going to be acting or being in entertainment that that was what you wanted to do? Was it when you were in high school and boarding school or was it when you got to college at Cambridge?
- [27:53]
Will Sharpe
I think at school I really didn't have a sense that it was possible and, you know, had an interest in it and wrote a play and some sort of slightly embarrassingly Rushmore esque kind of moments. But like, maybe towards the end of university you would see some people going on to doing it as professionally and that made it feel like maybe it's possible. I mean, maybe, to be honest with you, probably when Tom Kingsley and I, we made a short film, he was working as a runner at an advertising agency and I was playing a junior doctor in a soap in a sort of continuing medical drama.
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Anne Marie Baldonado
So this was after you had both graduated from Cambridge and you were kind of collaborators?
- [28:44]
Will Sharpe
Yeah, we had worked together at university and we made a short film together, went to Japan. He borrowed a prosumer camera from his advertising agency. I had two weeks off this soap and we sort of made a short film together. And then his boss watched it and was like, oh, that's great. What if I gave you 50 grand to make a feature film? And we of course were like, oh my God, that's so much money. Could we ever do it? And had sort of been given permission to imagine that it was possible to do that. And so I went off and wrote the script and we started trying to figure out how we could do it for 50 grand. Then his boss came back from a sabbatical and basically just said, I've changed my mind. Why would I give you 50 grand? That's insane. But by then we were so in mode and had sort of pictured it that we had the momentum. And so we started trying to raise the money ourselves, you know, writing to people we'd worked for, friends, parents that we knew were wealthy and all of that, and managed to raise 20 grand and made that feature film just in sort of complete innocence. And then after that, I think were considered to be sort of legit filmmakers. And I feel like probably until we had done that, maybe there was like a precariousness or at least like a fragility in sort of like, would you feel slightly fraudulent identifying as someone who's doing that, you know, for a job?
- [30:03]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Going back to your time at university, you tried out for Footlights, the comedy troupe at Cambridge, and you eventually became president. But what were some of your early sketches like?
- [30:17]
Will Sharpe
Oh, man, I think that was quite.
- [30:20]
Anne Marie Baldonado
I tried to find some. They do not exist.
- [30:22]
Will Sharpe
No, you wouldn't find them on the Internet. Trying to remember. I feel like there was, there was one where it was like a bunch of crayons and I played the white crayon who was annoyed that no one was using him. I think I did a song about like something to do with the Smiths, some kind of Morrissey parody. I think it was just making fun of his lyrics. I feel like it was something like something about a bicycle that has a basket. And I ask it, are you a basket or something? I can't remember. Something like that.
- [30:54]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Well, let's take a short break and then we'll talk some more. My guest is actor, writer and director Will Sharp. He stars in the new limited series Amadeus. The series originally aired in the UK and is now available on Starz. More after a break. This is FRESH air.
- [31:10]
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- [32:36]
Anne Marie Baldonado
This is FRESH air. I'm Ann Marie Baldonado back with award winning actor, writer and director Will Sharp. He stars in the new limited series Amadeus. His other films and series include A Real Pain, the White Lotus, Too Much Jiri Haji, the Electric Life of Louis Wayne and Flowers. I want to ask you about the 2024 film a real Pain. Jesse Eisenberg wrote, directed and starred in the it's about two cousins who used to be close but aren't anymore. They're played by Jesse Eisenberg and Kieran Culkin, who won an Oscar for his role in the film. And to try to connect, the cousins go to Poland on a Holocaust history tour to honor their late grandmother and to visit the house that she had to flee. You play James, the tour guide who isn't Jewish but is a historian of Jewish history. I think when your character makes his first appearance in the film, it took me a moment to realize that it was you. When you were starting conversations with Jesse Eisenberg, why did he reach out to you about this role and why were you drawn to it?
- [33:48]
Will Sharpe
I mean, I was drawn to it simply because I thought the script was sort of immaculate. I thought it was so clear what the tone was he was trying to strike and the kind of line he was trying to walk. I thought it was very precisely drawn. And I understood what he was trying to say, even though it was something quite nuanced and was a fan of his. And from the first meeting with him felt like a, you know, creative excitement from talking with him. And so I just wanted to be a part of that. And it really felt like, you know, a small indie film when we were making it. And obviously I believed in it creatively, but I had no sense of like that it would go all the way to the Oscars.
- [34:31]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Now I read that you were very specific about what accent you wanted to use for James and that you had tried a few different ways of playing him. What were you trying to get at with this character and the British accent that you ended up going with.
- [34:45]
Will Sharpe
Well, so, I mean, from the very early conversations, Jesse was really clear, didn't want James to be obnoxious in any way. Everything he does and says is so well meaning. He genuinely is passionate about this history and just wants to kind of make for a good trip for everyone and to, you know, educate them where he can. And he was written as a kind of like, fairly like down the line, Oxbridge grad. And then we did the read through, I think the day before we started filming. And something about it, I was like, I feel like it's somehow coming out more condescending than it should on the page. And I wondered if it was to do with the accent. And so that evening I started trying it out in a northern sort of, you know, like Sheffield, softer kind of voice. And I was thinking of this presenter, Brian Cox in the uk, different to the succession actor who he sort of does shows about the universe and space. And he has this very infectious enthusiasm. And so I was sending Jesse voice notes of James with that voice and he immediately seemed excited about it and was like, let's do that. I think that that really works. And he also, I think he liked, you know, with the film being about what it is and that immediately there's like a sort of specificity to James where if he comes from that part of the. Because he has the accent, but he looks like how I look like immediately there's like a hinterland that you're curious about of, you know, how did your family end up in that town? And so from that point on, it felt like, yeah, he just sort of clicked.
- [36:20]
Anne Marie Baldonado
I want to play a scene from A Real Pain. The group has been on the trip for a while and is traveling between Holocaust sites via train. And the group is traveling first class. Kieran Culkin's character, Benji, he's a big personality and at times questions the truth, questions his cousin, questions you as their guide. And here Benji is uncomfortable traveling in the comfort, in comfort on the train, thinking about what his ancestors had to endure. Benji, played by Karen Culkin, speaks first.
- [36:54]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Eighty years ago, we would have been herded into the backs of these things of cattle. Got it.
- [36:58]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
Okay, Benji, I don't think anybody here wants to hear that right now.
- [37:01]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Okay. Why not? Why doesn't anyone want to hear it?
- [37:03]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Because.
- [37:03]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Because it's depressing.
- [37:03]
Will Sharpe
Okay, look, it's okay. You're raising an interesting sensitivity here. It does sometimes come up on these tours. You're staying in fancy hotels, eating posh food and at the same time, you're looking back at the horrors of your family history, it can conjure up confusing feelings of discomfort and discordance and, dare I say, even a kind of guilt. You know, comparing your own life.
- [37:23]
Sponsor/Announcer
I don't feel guilt.
- [37:24]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
No.
- [37:25]
Will Sharpe
Nor should you, Mark.
- [37:25]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Why would I feel guilt?
- [37:27]
Will Sharpe
No, I'm not saying that you have to feel guilty.
- [37:28]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Well, because our lives are so pampered. Like, we completely cut ourselves off from anyone else's true pain.
- [37:34]
Anne Marie Baldonado
That's a scene from a real pain. And in that scene, we also heard Jesse Eisenberg, Jennifer Grey, and Daniel Aresky. That's just one of the scenes where Kieran Culkin's character questions the tour and questions what this group is doing. What was it like filming those scenes with Kieran Culkin? I would think it's very heightened.
- [37:56]
Will Sharpe
Yeah. You know, he's an electric performer, and it was kind of fun. And like, I remember on that scene, Jesse, as he always did, came in with a very specific plan about how to shoot it and where everyone would be and how it was going to be choreographed, because, you know, we're on a train, so the options are limited. And Kieran was like, hang on a minute. Why would I stand there? Or, let's rehearse it. Let's see what happens. And so even before we'd started rolling in a kind of metadramatic way, they'd fallen into the same dynamic as the characters. And Jesse would, of course, very wryly be like, well, this is perfect, because you have no respect for me as a director, and nor does the character have any respect for me, so this is gonna work great. And it did work great. And it really did feel like. Cause we were traveling through these places, it felt like we really were this little unit going on this journey, and it was just exciting to act opposite Ciaran. Some of my favorite scenes were, you know, getting to go head to head with Benji. And you sort of know he's always gonna bring it and it's always gonna work. But then he's also very playful and kind of doesn't mind pushing the edges of it, which I think sometimes makes for really unexpected choices that can lead to, you know, interesting things happening on camera.
- [39:10]
Anne Marie Baldonado
And so you have to kind of react a different way each time.
- [39:14]
Will Sharpe
Yeah, a little bit. But that's fun. And it suited the character for him to have that energy.
- [39:19]
Anne Marie Baldonado
One of the things I find so moving about a real pain is the way it explores generational trauma. Like, what the characters in that scene we just heard your Character calls guilt the guilt that some descendants of Holocaust survivors can carry. It's almost that feeling of how can I complain about my own life? How can I struggle with depression or unhappiness when my relatives lived through one of the most horrific tragedies in history? I'm wondering if that, you know, what you thought about that idea of that guilt and that kind of unresolved pain.
- [39:55]
Will Sharpe
Well, I guess that's sort of central to the movie, you know, is that idea of, like, if you hold your own pain or, you know, grievances in modern. The relatively comfortable seeming modern day against, like, the sheer scale of that historic trauma. Can you compute it? Almost. And there was something about, you know, we visited a real concentration camp, Maidanek, in the filming of the movie. And it was my first time in a concentration camp. And I really respected how Jesse chose to shoot those scenes, you know, very simply, just putting a camera up and then we just pass through and observe the space. And if you've not been to a place like that, it's hard to sort of put into words. It's like sort of looking into an abyss or something. You can't fathom how sort of humanity could be capable of such atrocities. And when you're sort of holding any sort of like, personal struggle up against the scale of that historic trauma, it's kind of like, what does that. How do you get your head around that? I suppose.
- [41:05]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Well, Will Sharp, thank you so much for joining us.
- [41:08]
Will Sharpe
Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.
- [41:11]
Anne Marie Baldonado
Will Sharp stars in the new limited series Amadeus, which is available on Starz. Coming up, David Biancooli reviews a new gardening show hosted by comedian Zach Galifianakis. This is FRESH air.
- [41:26]
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- [42:32]
Anne Marie Baldonado
this is FRESH air. On Earth Day, Netflix launched a six part series called this is a Gardening Show. It's hosted by Zach Galifianakis, the comedic actor best known for the Hangover films, the TV series Baskets, and his own acerbic talk show, Between Two Ferns. Our TV critic David Biancooli says that while this series is just as funny and delightful as you might expect, it's also surprisingly informative and even serious. Here's his review.
- [43:04]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
This is a food gardening show with your host, Zatch Gaspinaski.
- [43:09]
David Biancooli
You don't expect Zach Galifianakis to take himself seriously in his new Netflix series, and for the most part, he doesn't. This Is a Gardening show is loaded with botched takes, toss away asides, and truly terrible jokes. Even knock knock jokes. He clearly has fun, and so do his guests. One segment in each episode has him interviewing kids at a grade school, acting like Art Linkletter used to in his very old radio and TV shows. The questions typically revolve around gardening fruits and vegetables, but invariably veer off into uncharted conversational territory. The host proved his ad lib prowess as an interviewer on his Between Two Ferns show, but the object there was to make his guests intentionally uncomfortable. On this show, whether he's talking to farmers, horticultural experts, or little kids, Galifianakis himself always ends up being the butt of the joke. Here he is chatting with a series of kids as he tours their school garden. Somehow the conversational topics shift from ghost peppers to the movie School of Rock.
- [44:17]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
These are ghost peppers.
- [44:19]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Are they haunted?
- [44:21]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
No.
- [44:21]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Well, then why do they call them ghost peppers?
- [44:23]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
Because they're really hot.
- [44:25]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
But most ghosts aren't known for being hot. If you could be anything in the world that you wanted to be, what would you be?
- [44:33]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
I want to be a vet.
- [44:35]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
You don't mean a veteran, you mean a vet. Veterinarian?
- [44:38]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
Yeah. Yeah, probably somebody who works in a show.
- [44:42]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Works in a show?
- [44:43]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
Yeah.
- [44:43]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Oh, like show business stuff?
- [44:45]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
Yeah. Like, have you ever seen School?
- [44:47]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Who's that with Jack Black? Never heard of that guy.
- [44:51]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
He's one of my favorite actors.
- [44:53]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Good for him.
- [44:54]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
No, my first favorite is Ryan Reynolds.
- [44:56]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Ryan Reynolds. It'd be nice to meet an actor one day.
- [44:58]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
Yeah. It would be nice to meet Ryan Reynolds and Jack Black.
- [45:03]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Yeah. You ever heard of this guy? Zach Galifianakis?
- [45:07]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
Yeah.
- [45:07]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
What do you think of that guy?
- [45:08]
Harper (Aubrey Plaza)
He's not my favorite.
- [45:10]
Will Sharpe
Hmm.
- [45:11]
David Biancooli
The six episodes in this first season. I'm hoping there will be more. Are devoted to apples, tomatoes, foraging root vegetables, corn and compost. Zach, who lives in British Columbia, has been gardening for some 25 years. This is a gardening show was filmed on Vancouver island and every farmer he visits is a true character, especially Murray, who's been growing corn for about half a century and easily handles any question thrown at him, even when Zach brings up the phenomenon of crop circles.
- [45:45]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Anybody ever come in here, try to do a crop circle? No. An idiot with a center point and a rope and make a crop circle. You don't think they're aliens? No, they're just drunk kids doing it. No. Old people with a piece of board. You've probably seen it on tv. What do you mean old people by that? Our age.
- [46:03]
Will Sharpe
Our age.
- [46:04]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Well, you look 70ish.
- [46:09]
David Biancooli
In the same episode on corn, an actual food archaeologist is brought in, and while you're likely to learn something, it's always with a smile.
- [46:19]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Food is one of the topics that I study in archaeology and we began to find corn in an ancient village site that we were working at in Church, Chiapas, Mexico. We took samples of that carbonized corn and sent it to a radiocarbon laboratory. How old was it? Over 3,000 years old.
- [46:37]
Sponsor/Announcer
Wow.
- [46:38]
Benji (Kieran Culkin)
Older than Murray.
- [46:40]
David Biancooli
The director of this Is a Gardening show is Brooke Linder, who also proved his skill at mixing different topics and comic tones in the live Netflix talk show Everybody's Live with John Mulaney. These gardening shows rely on a basket of tricks. They use time lapse photography to capture both growth and decay. They use the segments with kids for pure comedy. Galifianakis also visits different farms and farmers to sample their wares. And every time he bites into an heirloom tomato or a homegrown carrot, he pronounces it the best one he's ever tasted. And I don't think he's kidding. In the course of these compact 15 to 16 minute episodes, he learns how to graft apple trees, make richer compost, and generally how to self sustain. The future is agrarian, he says in every episode, and not as a punchline. And he points out how happy the Canadian farmers all seem to be, even Murray, as well as how much tastier the locally grown fruits and vegetables are in several spots. Watching this Is a Gardening show I became nostalgic for a past I'd almost forgotten. When I was a little kid. My Uncle Tom had a farm sized backyard where he grew cherries and tomatoes and harvested seeds from his hottest peppers each year to keep growing even hotter ones. He also could walk through the nearby forests and confidently forage many types of wild mushrooms, leaving the poisonous ones behind. I also remember a corn farm in Ohio where on harvest day, the farm would set up boiling cauldrons in the fields and invite the public. You could go there, pick ears right off the stalks, shuck and boil them on the spot and eat. What I still remember was the best corn I ever had. Zach Galifianakis, in his new series, spreads that kind of joy for eating as well as gardening. But he issues a dire warning, too, that if we don't return to our roots, the roots in our own gardens, our future may end up being a lot more bleak. That's a bitter pill to swallow, but this Is A Gardening show serves it up persuasively and deliciously.
- [48:52]
Anne Marie Baldonado
David Biancooli reviewed this Is a Gardening show tomorrow on Fresh Air, tech writer Joanna Stern. She spent a year relying on AI to do everything in her life that AI could do for her, like diagnosing her mammogram, responding to messages, folding her T shirts and serving as a boyfriend. She'll tell us what she learned about AI's current capabilities. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram prfreshair. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Stanischewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Meyers, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzales Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Roberta Shurrock directs the show for Terry Gross and Tanya Moseley. I'm Anne Marie Baldonado.