← FroKnowsPhoto Photography Podcasts
FroKnowsPhoto Photography Podcasts
An Honest Conversation with Gerald Undone: RAWtalk BONUS Interview
00:47:48
Loading summary
Transcript113 lines
- [00:00]
A
Jared polin, froknowsphoto.com and if you follow the photo community for the last 10 plus years, you know Gerald Undone, you know that he focuses on making very technical videos about new products that come out where he takes them into the lab and he tells you, it does this good, it does this bad, it could do this better. So he's been doing that for a long time. But the other day he put out a video that said he is retiring from making the types of videos that he's been making. But there were a lot of questions that I had. And so what better way to get my questions answered than to reach out to Gerald and see if he would sit down for a conversation to share what's on his mind and what he's going through with you guys. So that's exactly what I did. Here is my conversation with Gerald Undone. We are joined by the one and only Gerald Undone. How are you today, sir?
- [00:57]
B
I'm great, thanks for asking. How are you?
- [00:59]
A
I'm doing okay. Busy day. I'm getting ready to do more travel. I've been flying all around, doing all different types of stuff, being creative and all of those things. And you put out a video the other day talking about retiring. If you guys haven't checked out that video yet, go listen to it. I mean, at first I wasn't sure if this was going to be one of those banana videos or a serious video. And it turns out it's a serious video.
- [01:25]
B
Yeah, I suppose I set myself up for that. If I make, you know, every couple months I make a silly video, then you're bound to get people to expect that it's another. And the funny thing is I knew like clickbait was going to be a notion of it too, because there's a lot of like, you know, I'm done. And then it's like, you find out what, what are they done with? Oh, they're just done with the coffee brand they've been drinking, you know. But in this one. So I was trying to come up with a word where it's like, I'm not saying I'm quitting YouTube, not whatever, but it's like, what would be it? And so I came up with retiring because it's been a legitimate joke around here for like a good year.
- [01:57]
A
Where's around here? Your house?
- [01:58]
B
Yeah, exactly. When I think originally I was like, when I turn 40, I think I'm gonna stop doing camera reviews. And if the channel hits 10 years, I think I'm stopped doing camera views. And then it was kind of, what are you gonna do then? And I'd be like, well, I was like, I don't know what retirement means. I'm not gonna go play shuffleboard in Florida for the rest of my life or whatever. You know, I'll probably still keep doing something. Just. Just tinkering around, which is what I always envisioned retirement to be, is like, you know, I picture like an old man just who, like, I don't know, polishes his golf clubs or whatever, is like his new hobby, you know. But I'm not into any of the regular retirement hobbies, so it's like, what do I do? And so I was like, I don't know. I'm into the stuff I'm into. Maybe I'll make that with the. If I make videos, I'll make it about that. You know, the stuff I'm doing in my quote unquote retirement.
- [02:41]
A
Well, what are you into?
- [02:43]
B
It's a good question. It's funny because I don't share a lot of it on the channel. Right. So I would say my primary interests are music. Probably music centric. So either like playing music, I'm into, like, instruments, both from playing them, but also instruments just in general. Records, sort of music trivia, music lore, that kind of thing. And then just like playing for my own entertainment. So Big music guy. And then video games. I play a lot of video games. I like sort of video game culture and stuff around it. And then computer building, which I've incorporated a little bit into the channel from time to time. But I'm like, pretty deep in the, like, PC world, is like full on nerd or whatever. But on the channel, I try to reel it in a little bit, be like, this is good for video editing or whatever, you know. But realistically, I'm just a gaming degen. And so I don't know. And other things. There's some other things too, Some. Some lighter hobbies. But I think those are the types of things that if I, when I had in my mind of like, what kind of space do I want to have? You know, it's like the space that's. That's allocated to me in the house to do whatever the hell I want with is a YouTube studio. And it's like. And it's this, like, you know, pristine. You go in there, all the angles are right and all that. There's no, there's nowhere to enjoy anything over there. It's just like, that's what it is. And so what if we tear it all down and make it A space that's actually fun to hang out in. And maybe I can find a camera angle, maybe, you know, and then it might not look great, but it'll be what it is, you know?
- [04:07]
A
Well, do you think you're going to run into the same issue that you ran into with doing tech reviews, that if you start something new, it becomes a. A thing again?
- [04:15]
B
That could totally happen. Which I think is why I avoided for the longest time bringing my interests into it, because I didn't want to, like, make things like, for instance, me playing piano or guitar is relaxing and it's. And it helps me unwind and everything else. I don't want to make that work at any capacity. Do I want to make that work or related to work or anything? Because now I can't even pick up a camera for joy. Like, I. I can't do it. I don't. I don't enjoy taking photos on, like, a walk or anything like that. I just hate it. I hate holding a camera.
- [04:44]
A
Now you actually take photos. I thought you just tested cameras.
- [04:46]
B
That's the point. Yeah, it's like. And I used to. I used to. There used to be a hybrid of it where it would be like, hey, I got a new camera to test. But. But also there's. You know, there's a thing coming up. The only thing I would say I do with them now is take pictures of my kid, which is nice to do, but even that isn't as fun as I thought it would be if I was just a dad with a camera versus a camera viewer with a kid is like, I guess I'll take some photos of my kid with his new camera. You know, it's that kind of like. So I use my phone. That's what I do. I use my phone to take. To take pictures of stuff because it doesn't feel like work. And so you're right. It's a legitimate concern. So I think that's why my attitude moving forward would be a lot less of, like, YouTube as a business. And I'm not thinking to myself, I'm gonna make a guitar channel, because that would be the wrong. You know, but if I. If I say, got a cool new guitar that I thought was really, really neat, and I'd want to rant to somebody about it, but, you know, your friends are often like, hey, slow down. Nobody cares. Right? Like, we're not in that audience with you. That's like, well, then maybe I'll just put it on you. I'll just rant at a camera for 15 minutes about why I think it's cool, put it on the Internet, and then who cares? You know, that's. That's kind of the idea.
- [05:53]
A
Well, did you start to wake up every day and dread walking into the YouTube studio space?
- [05:59]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think I just avoided. I avoided it. I noticed that I was avoiding it more and more. And like, like me, you get those emails that's like, hey, we got a new whatever coming out and we'd love to send it to you. And my brain only did one of two things. It'd be like, is there any money I can make on that video? Like, can I make enough money making that video that I can convince myself it's worth doing? Or is there anything about it I'm legitimately interested in? And the second one could reduce the impact of the first one. Like, if I was really curious about it, hey, you know what? Maybe I'm not making any money on it, but this is a cool feature. The second thing started to happen less and less and less. You would go to briefing and you'd be like, this is the same. I've seen this camera. I've already seen it five times. You know, so then it becomes, okay, well, then I guess, you know, people will watch this video. People will watch this review. So I'll try to stick a sponsor in there. I'll try to make some money on it, and then that'll be worthwhile. But, yeah, so I wouldn't. I don't know. It's not like I don't dread. I don't dread it so much as just like, I just. I can't conjure up any enthusiasm anymore. You know what I mean? Like, it's all phony. If I were to pretend I care.
- [07:09]
A
No, I get it. I mean, we've been down the road. Pre pandemic, there was an arms race between Canon, Sony, Nikon on who could throw the best event because Sony came out swinging with event for everything. And then we started flying to San Francisco for a lens release. And you're like, guys, you just flew me out to San Francisco for four days and you wasted my time to release a basic bitch lens. And it started to become this thing where I was like, I'm. I'm not going. You cannot wait. Like, and they would get upset. People get upset with me. And. And yes, I'm tough on a. On a trip because I expect one. I expect good food because I eat bougie at home. I don't expect to eat shit when I'm traveling. And you're taken to. To an event, I expect to just. I'm not saying I need to be wined and dined. I'm saying that you need to utilize our time because we're not being paid to be here by you, which means you don't own us. And if I'm gonna leave your event because you're not doing something right, then I'm gonna leave your event because I wanna go have a real dinner. And so it started to get to the point where it's like we're taking four or five days out of our work time in our studios where we can focus on stuff to go to these events. And all the companies started to do that. And thankfully, and it became an issue just because it was just way too much stuff. We're like, no, I just wanna be at home.
- [08:28]
B
I remember around that time a lot of people were making videos about that of, like, we're not going to events anymore, there's too many of them and stuff like that. I remember some videos of that era. For me, I think around that time, I'd only been going to a few of them, so I was like, this is cool, you know?
- [08:43]
A
Well, that's the thing, is people think it's cool, but when you. We're running businesses, I'm assuming you're running a business. Like, we have to take into account our businesses. I have employees. I have to make sure that they're taken care of. And if we're not turning out content, then we're not able to sell products. And I don't know if you have employees. I know you have someone you work with, but do you have any employee employees?
- [09:06]
B
Yeah, I did. I did have an employee for. For the better part of a year. And then when things sort of started to slow, like, I shouldn't say things slowed down. I'm in control of it. But when I started taking my foot off the gas, it got to a point where I was like, look, I. I'm not putting other videos to where there's much of a need anymore. So we kind of slow down, slow down, and eventually discontinued it. But yeah, when I was pushing hard there for the last couple years prior to my slowdown, yeah, I had an employee that sold with editing and shooting and just basic, basic production stuff all the way from top to bottom, you
- [09:39]
A
know, so my brain goes to the business aspect when I. When I listen to what you're saying and you make that video. I. I know you started offering Lutz like 6 months ago or so. I know we talked about that. When we were at Sony Condo one, another one of those events that I will never go to again, and we were talking about making money, right?
- [09:59]
B
Yeah.
- [10:00]
A
How is this going to affect your ability to make money?
- [10:05]
B
It's hard to predict perfectly. I assume that I will make less money. That's my assumption. Is that because we know that just sort of like general. You just. If you just upload a video with no plan, then you'll make whatever money the platforms want to give you, which is not a lot of money, right? No. Unless your video goes crazy and you also market your video for that intention. You're like, I'm going on an AdSense angle, you know, or an affiliate angle or something.
- [10:34]
A
Do you actually do that? You think about the AdSense angle? I don't. I don't just release a video.
- [10:38]
B
I don't really make videos that I think, well, like, super niche camera videos aren't AdSense videos. You know, I'd have to be making general, general essays about life and stuff like that. If you're going. If you're going after adsense, right. Then you're at the behest of the copyright and everything else. So, like, if I do want to make videos in the future about music and everything else, AdSense is not the target there, because you're gonna get copyright and everything else. Right. So you're. I think I'm definitely gonna lose my. I'll lose some money on. On what that would be. Now, I never really, like I said, I never really made money from the camera brands, but I would put a lot of, like, ad integrations in the camera reviews. And so, you know, maybe there's an opportunity for that. But a part of that is also something I don't want to do, which is like, I'm sure if you've ever put in a storyblocks, a squarespace, a skillshare, whatever, you can develop relationships. It makes it a lot easier. Like, my relationship with storyblocks is good, but if I were to work with a different brand, there's gonna be the whole, like, send us it for approval. We got two days with this. We do this and whatever. And it takes the spontaneity out of the YouTube upload completely. Take to where you're, like, trying to make a workaround and integration. So while I could say, oh, I'll find sponsors for my new ideas, there's a part of me that's like, I don't really want to. Because if the idea is like, hey, I found something cool, let me just talk to the camera for 10 minutes and then post it on the Internet. Having a sponsor will slow that to a halt. Instead of just like, shoot it, quick edit, throw it up. Right. And so I don't see myself doing that as much. And so, yeah, that's more money left on the table or whatever the expression is, right?
- [12:12]
A
Are you okay to survive because you get used to a certain lifestyle and that's really what it comes down to.
- [12:16]
B
Yeah. I think I'm fortunate enough that I've been pretty, like, responsible and frugal Most of my YouTube career, you know, as. As revenues and stuff scaled up with YouTube, I was always kind of like, I always felt I was the type of person that, even when I was making a tenth of what I was making now thinking, like, how am I getting paid this much? I'm getting away with murder over here. You know what I mean? And somebody's going to find this out and turn the lights off on me. They're going to catch me. They're like, wait, what are we. What are we letting this guy get away with? So I was just hoarding money like a dragon, like, all the time. Right. And I wouldn't spend anything. My first however many years on YouTube, I was just shooting out of a tiny apartment in the living room, you know, just, just. And so the costs were so low. I think at one point my. My half of the cost was like 1100 bucks. And I just had to make 1100 bucks on yout to be, like, profitable to the point where I could say, okay, maybe I can try this harder and scale it. And so that's what I was working in was the realm of like, 1100 bucks is good YouTube money. Right. A month, I should say. And now once you have a kid and you buy a house and stuff, things get a lot more pricey real quick. So we're no longer in eleven hundred dollars to get the job done anymore by quite a margin because as anybody who's gone through those things knows that they get really expensive and everything's just expensive these days, period. So, yeah, there is definitely a lifestyle, whatever that's called creep. Lifestyle creep or whatever, where, you know, the numbers start going up. But I still maintained being pretty darn responsible throughout all that. I'm also one of those. If we're getting into the numbers, I'm one of those people that I wouldn't call myself, like, have you ever heard of the fire?
- [13:57]
A
Some acronym. Yeah. That I don't.
- [13:58]
B
Yeah. Financial independence. Retire early.
- [14:00]
A
Can I just say something?
- [14:01]
B
Yeah.
- [14:01]
A
I have zero desire to retire. Like I don't want to stop doing what I do, whether it's photography, whether it's making content. Like, for me, making YouTube videos is a means to an end. I understand what it generates, and I honestly don't get burnout anymore because we've.
- [14:16]
B
We.
- [14:17]
A
I've mentally prepared for certain things. Some videos will do well, some videos won't do well, and you don't get too high, and you don't get too low. But I also have to. I have three employees now. They have families, Right? These are things that I have to take into consideration as a business owner is if I didn't do this, then what the hell are they going to do? They would have to. It would. It would. It would irrevocably change their lives a little bit.
- [14:41]
B
That's fair. That's responsible. I admire that. And because I am a. Like, in my case, because I'm a father and the provider for our family, I would never do anything that puts it where we're, like, where we're in jeopardy. So my strategy all along was to, you know, the. The reason why I mentioned that fire thing is not so much because I'm, like, an advocate for it, but it's like a general principle of, like, using a calculator to be like, this is how much money you need to, like you said, maintain a given lifestyle in perpetuity without needing to generate, say, new revenue or whatever. Like, that's the idea, right? And there's really conservative ones, and there's really aggressive ones. And so I use that as sort of like just a goal post. What you find, though, is that you constantly move the goalpost because then you'll be like, oh, I hit this marker. Let me go for the next one, the next one, the next one. And eventually got to the point where I was like, I'm going to move this goalpost forever. And. And I'm doing things I don't enjoy just to keep pushing this. This sort of retirement fiscal, this, like, number further and further and further. And I've heard of people who have, you know, $100 million, but if they had 185 million, they'd say, yeah, I'll just work a little harder and get the 200 million. As if somehow that extra 15 million is going to change something. And it's like, and I do not have $185 million, but I feel like it doesn't matter whether you got five bucks or a billion dollars, you're always going to move the goal post. And so at one point, you Just got to say, you know, we have enough. We have enough and life is more worth, you know, like enjoying it. And I'm fortunate, you know, because like you said, like you've got employees and responsibilities and I totally respect that. I guess I'm fortunate enough that I can probably play a little bit faster and loose with the channel. I don't expect it to go to zero. I don't know exactly what it'll do. And so, you know, check in with me in a year and I'll tell you like what, how the predictions were. I don't expect it to go to zero. I think like the LUTS thing was good for passive, like residual keeping that going. I have other things like the condor blue cables and stuff that generate passive income. And if you put all those things together, like it's a solid salary on just that passive stuff. Now will it go down if I am making less camera related content? Maybe, probably. I suppose I should probably assume that it would to be on the conservative side. But I don't know. I don't know. You know, as somebody who sells a lot of presets, you probably know that sometimes that can be unpredictable. You could be like, well, I haven't promoted it in two weeks, but now the numbers are up for some reason. Like what?
- [17:13]
A
You know, like there's random days where you look back and you're like, what just happened?
- [17:18]
B
Yeah, did somebody promote it for me? Like, you know, I just did major sales on a random Tuesday and then, and then a nosedive on another day, you know, so I don't know what it's going to look like in the future. But I do think that we should, we should be okay enough for me to mess around a little bit anyway. And then I mentioned the video. The more direct answer would probably be, I think I'll keep like Instagram as a spot to where I'm okay with throwing some paid content. Like just straight up paid content.
- [17:50]
A
The Tamron thing was an ad. It said hashtag ad. That's what I checked first.
- [17:53]
B
Yeah, exactly. And you know what? Like, I think that'll be a good case study moving forward. I put the maximum amount of effort I would want to put into something like that to then use it as a case study for in case I want to advertise to somebody else and say, or to present it to somebody else and be like, here, what about. You want me do one of these? I can do one of these and it's doing well last time I checked. I think it's got like 70 80,000 like views on Instagram. I think it's presented well. I think it's like clean and punchy and, and it's something that didn't kill me to make, like it didn't bother me.
- [18:21]
A
You know, like we call that those things product showcases.
- [18:25]
B
Yeah.
- [18:26]
A
So it's like we've defined, we've justified internally that there are certain videos that you make that like we did one for Osbot. Right. Like it's the tail two. Yeah. It's a camera ptz that's bigger than a, bigger than a basic webcam. And they came and they came knocking and there's money involved. And I'm like, well, the new employee Austin that we brought on, part of bringing him on was allowing us the ability to do a couple more of those brand deals a year where it's his job to film it and edit it with, you know, I am in the talent. And then he films and edits it and it keeps Steven and Dan to doing the other content that we do. That's our stuff. And so brand deals can range in price from not a lot, which we wouldn't do, to an exorbitant amount for some phone brand that comes along. And you're like, yeah, I remember there was one and I'm not gonna say which one it was, but I was like, to my ad guys give a stupid number. I'm like, this is a stupid number. And they said yes to the stupid number. And I was like, I guess we're making this video now because sometimes those numbers are just so stupid that you're like, well, that funds an employ for a year.
- [19:37]
B
Yeah, totally.
- [19:38]
A
And so anyway, yeah, I think it's, it's, it's good to do the brand deals, but it's going to be interesting to see how it changes as you shift whatever the content is going to be.
- [19:49]
B
Yeah. I think the reason why I said Instagram was so that again, I would feel like it's not that YouTube is sacred for me, but it's that if I want to have my mental garden, whatever you want to call it, to be cultivated in a way where it's like I post videos that I'm interested in on YouTube and I'm not worried about the business side of it so much that it starts to pollute and make it work, especially if I'm bringing my hobbies into it, then it's like, well then Instagram can be the non sacred one, if you will, where it's like, that is where I could do these short showcases. I've done showcases on YouTube, like long form ones, but I don't think I want to do much of that anymore. But I'm cool with pumping a nice reel and, you know, I don't think you can make as much money on a reel as you can make on a long form showcase. At least from my experience, I've heard that some of the numbers are getting closer than they were years ago.
- [20:42]
A
I think they're mostly vanity numbers, though. That's the thing with Instagram. 100,000 views on Instagram is not as strong as 100,000 views on YouTube.
- [20:51]
B
True.
- [20:51]
A
It's just.
- [20:52]
B
I meant like the brands seem like the num. The numbers, the brands are willing to pay are. The gap is smaller than it was years ago when it's like, do you remember the days when somebody was like, I'll give you 100 bucks to post something on social.
- [21:02]
A
Well, that's because they think the value is there because it's van like it's numbers. Like, oh, it got a million views on TikTok or it got a million views here. They see that and that's a metric that they use. The best metric to determine how successful something is is how many purchases were actually made. Right. That's why back in the day doing affiliate deals, not a lot of people will take. Not a lot of type people like us will take. Affiliate deals, meaning when something happens, when a purchase is made, that is the only time we get paid. That is a thing that most people don't do. But that was a great thing for me back in the day with Squarespace and it really helped me along because they had an offering where it was every time a conversion happened and someone stayed a customer for three months, then something was triggered. Anyway, that's just getting into the weeds right there.
- [21:53]
B
I agree, though. Yeah. There. I've noticed that some brands do pay a close attention to conversions, and then other ones, it seems like it's more just about like awareness. They're happy to pay money just to like have their name said a bunch of times.
- [22:06]
A
Yeah.
- [22:07]
B
And I'm okay with that. I mean, if they're cool with that, I'm okay. I'll post on Instagram and I'll. And I'll say your name eight times and then. And I'm fine with that. Then whatever happens, happens, you know?
- [22:16]
A
Yeah. So did you know you're talking a lot about mental state. I mean, without saying that word. But have you felt the burnout? I mean, is it just something that's been wearing on you?
- [22:27]
B
It's Tricky because I think everybody has sort of a different understanding of burnout. And I've heard other people's explanations of it and I don't know that I feel that as much. For me, it's purely, it's like it's gauging my own enthusiasm. And YouTube is performative in its nature and I don't want the, the effort of the performance to go into just the feigning enthusiasm part of it. I would rather have a different part of it be the performative aspect. And so there's a draining nature, I guess, to be like, now you've, you've seen my videos. I'm not, I'm not that much of a super excitable hype person anyway. But that, that is me. Like in those videos you see, that's me turning it on where I'm like, hey, we got a brand new, like, that's, that's already performative for me. So.
- [23:14]
A
Yeah, I mean, you said, this is theater and I don't want to do it anymore.
- [23:17]
B
Exactly. It is.
- [23:18]
A
I mean, it all is. Like when I, when I talked to someone on the phone recently for the first time, they're like, you don't sound like your videos.
- [23:25]
B
Right.
- [23:25]
A
I was like, well, we use great microphones for that, but also I step up my level differently.
- [23:31]
B
Yeah, it's still you, but it's like the, the, you know, charged up version or whatever, right?
- [23:37]
A
Yeah.
- [23:38]
B
And it can take a little bit out of you to dial it up, but, but if you're having fun doing it or you're into it or whatever, then it's, then it's all good because you'll. People will get naturally charged up just in conversation with friends or with whoever if they're in something, like, if something exciting. I don't know, who cares what. You bought a new car and you love your new car, and then somebody asks you about it, who's also a car person, you might talk passionately about that. There's no cameras. You're just talking passionately about that and you can feel that sort of energy rise. That's the legitimate one. That one doesn't make me feel a certain way. It makes me feel good, if anything. But if you're on YouTube and you don't have that charge because it's a new camera, but you, you know that people want you to talk to them like that. They want you to talk to you about the new car you got that you're excited about, but you're not, then that's where the really performative aspect comes in. And for me that I found that to be like, I don't know, I'm not going to whine and be like, oh, it was so mentally taxing. It's not that. It just kind of like, it just felt lame or something. And I was like, I don't want. I just. My most legitimate response is the first sentence of the video was like, I don't want to, I don't want to do it anymore. You know, like, I would rather talk about, I'd rather legitimately be excited and then I don't have to fake it
- [24:54]
A
is the idea, you know, that makes total sense. I mean, it's the old adage, if you, it's a Sunday and you dread waking up to go to work on Monday, it's time to make a change.
- [25:04]
B
Yeah.
- [25:05]
A
And we have more freedom to make changes than the 99.99% of other people because of what we've ended up doing the last 10 plus years.
- [25:15]
B
Yeah, I always feel the need to apologize for that or something because it's like if ever you get into some therapy session and you're like. And it's like, yeah, it's not that hard. Our jobs are not that hard in terms of.
- [25:28]
A
Do you see a therapist?
- [25:30]
B
I don't either do I. I guess I meant more like when YouTubers get around and piss and moan and it's like you do it because the people can commiserate with you because they understand the thing. But in another context, I wouldn't like if, if I was sitting around a table of blue collar workers or whatever, I wouldn't be whining about how feigning enthusiasm is. It's tricky work. You know what I mean? I wouldn't, what I tell people in that context is I would say like, actually, you know, you caught me an interesting time. I'm actually thinking about changing up the type of videos that I make and go in that direction and less of like, you know, it's just so hard to keep pretending like I'm interested in these cameras because it's, we're not digging ditches, you know, like.
- [26:13]
A
Correct. We're getting flown all over the place and people want to give us money to talk about a product. And it is a double edged sword. I mean, there are times where you're like, well, we got to keep feeding the beast. And I've. We all come to our own realizations of how we see it and how we see our businesses. And I understand that YouTube for me is a means to an end. I don't know what the end is. And like I said earlier, I do it for. I love what I do. I couldn't see doing anything else because I don't like working for. I mean, I don't consider this to be work. I know I work a lot. You know, I travel, I do things. I love creating, I always love creating. And if I was personally to stop doing the YouTube the way that I did, there would be trickle down effects, like I said, to the employees, but also to the lifestyle I've created. I don't know that I would be able to generate the revenue that I generate doing this. And I don't know that I would have the freedoms to continue to do the things that I do. But I also understand that by continuing to do this, it does afford me all of the freedoms that I can have if I do want to take them. So, you know, that's just me. But are you going to do like a brand change? Are you going to become the color orange or something?
- [27:28]
B
You know, it's funny, people always talk about second channels and different channels for different purposes and stuff. And even to my own detriment, I've always been the sort of like stubborn guy who's like, nah, I made this channel to just post whatever hell he wanted. Eventually it turned into focused on cameras. I can unfocus it if I want, and it's still just me, the channel's me and whatever I'm up to. I don't plan on doing any massive things or like, you know, again, preserving this as my camera archive and then making a second channel where I talk about boats or whatever. Gerald, Boats. I'm not gonna do that. It's gonna be like, if I want to talk about a boat, which I don't, but if I did, it's gonna go on this channel and it's just gonna, it's gonna be what it is, you know, and I don't care.
- [28:06]
A
Yeah, I think there's gonna be people obviously that are looking to you for the technical aspect when it comes to cameras. Do you think a camera could interest you again? Is there something that someone could put out? You'd be like, you know what? I want to call Sony, Canon, Nikon, I don't even know, call Panasonic anymore, but call any of these people and be like, hey, yeah, I just, I
- [28:28]
B
want to go do something, you know, I can't maybe. I think that throughout the years, I think Sony is the easier one for me because I, I've been on their, on their back so many times. About certain features. And because I still. My. I guess my intention is to shoot. Whatever videos I shoot in the future will probably be shot on very similar setup to have now because I'm comfortable with it. So I still know my annoyances here. So I could see myself, like, I'll give you. I'll give you a couple of practical. A couple actual camera examples, since you'll know what I'm talking about. I've said in so many videos that two things I've noticed. One is, on Sony cameras, when you're shooting in H265, you can't shoot in 25 or 30 frames a second. If they release a new camera that fix that for the first time in five or six years, I would see myself feeling compelled to, like, make some form of, like, oh, my God, they. They fixed that feature, you know, Like, I could. Unless at that time, by the time it happens, I just don't care anymore. But I could see myself being compelled to, like, address that. But I definitely wouldn't say there was a new camera that does fix that thing. I'm still not gonna do an exhaustive review of the camera. Like, I don't care to do that, but I'd be like, but they did this one thing, which I've been talking about for six years. Interesting. And then that's. And that's the video if I want it. But then again, that could just probably be a reel, you know.
- [29:53]
A
But YouTube, again, reels are different. YouTube is different. Like, they're two different environments.
- [29:58]
B
True. You know, I mean, lengthwise, though, you could cram that into 60 seconds without, sure, you know, trouble. But something like that I could see myself doing. And then possibly if something came along that I wanted to change out, like, say. I say I was really enjoying filming whatever these new videos are that I. That I get up to. But I notice a couple challenges in filming them, which I can't predict now. And then a new camera comes out that fixes those challenges. I could see my. See myself maybe making just a little video of like, hey, little update. In case you want to know, I recently switched to this camera because it's better for this, this, and this that I'm doing with my new things. I could see maybe a video like that. But again, not an exhaustive review. It'd be more just like I switched over to the, you know, the T1000 mark 5 because it, you know, does this thing now, and that could be like a little. A little video. Could be a fun throwback update kind of video. But at the moment I don't see myself wanting to make camera and broadly products like anything's a product. So it kind of sounds silly if you say I'm never going to talk about products again because again I made, I made an example talking about a guitar. I mean a guitar is a product, you know, and there's guitar channels that talk about guitars as products and pedals and cables and everything else. Right. But in the notion where you feel like a salesperson, that's what I want to do less of. So if I want to talk about a cool guitar that I have, I don't give a crap if you buy it, right? That like that's there's not gonna be an affiliate link. There's not nothing like that. It's kinda like look at this thing. Could even be a one of one. And so it's like you can't even buy it. But I thought, I thought it was neat. Look at this thing. This is neat, you know. Versus so Sony has a new boop. A doop. And it's available starting in March. That's, that's more salesy for me. And I find that a bit too like that's what I say when I don't want to talk about products anymore. I don't want to like well I
- [31:53]
A
think I could distill this down a little bit because Steven and I have the discussions all the time are chasing product launches. So when companies come around they're like we have a new product coming. Well generally they all fall at the same time. So if one company is releasing something, it's usually some other company is going to do one around the same time as well. And then they start sending you stuff and then I know I have this talk with Steven all the time where I'm like, hey, I know we should probably get this out at launch time but so is everybody else. And honestly, who the fuck cares? Like I know it's important people want to and for me it's like, well, people want to hear what I have to say. And what I keep coming back to is, well, I know people are going to want to decide on whether to buy something based off of what I find. And if I don't put a video out at that launch time then they're going to be swayed by somebody else's opinion who I think is wrong or giving the is not doing them justice because they're either pushing for the brand too hard or sometimes it's just like an advertisement.
- [32:55]
B
And I get that.
- [32:56]
A
I feel the need to go ahead and do that to still make it. But it also takes away from our ability to generate other content. That is the stuff that really moves the needle. Except I say moves the needle. In terms of selling product, though, when a new camera comes out, we use it for our benefit to promote our own products that we sell.
- [33:16]
B
True. Yeah.
- [33:17]
A
But that's something that we go through all the time is. You know, I would have these conversations with, with lens companies where they're like releasing five different lenses and we're like, guys, we don't care about that DX lens. Seriously, it's not going to get a lot of views. And. And they get all fussy, you know, fussy sometimes. And they're like, well, we need this. I'm like, yeah, but we don't work for you. And we're like, it is mutually beneficial because you give us new product which then allows us to get out content to then sell more stuff for us. It's mutually beneficial. I get that. But we don't work for you.
- [33:51]
B
Yeah, totally.
- [33:52]
A
So it's, it's a tough dance.
- [33:54]
B
And you also get the big ebb and flows of like. Like you said, they all launch at the same time. So you're running around like a maniac, probably doing a worse job on all of them because you're trying to do everything all at once. And then you'll have this like, period of nothing going on. And then you think, okay, now I'm getting into some, some ideas I wanted to really cultivate. And then maybe you're just finally going to. That's like. But now we got seven more cameras all coming out on Wednesday or whatever. And you're like, geez, Louise.
- [34:18]
A
That's why we got into doing more of the One Year later reviews, because it's time where we. Because what happens is you get these cameras and sometimes you have two weeks, sometimes you have a week, sometimes you have a month. It depends on the brand and how soon they want to send you a camera to play with. But most of the time people don't revisit after they give their initial thoughts. And their initial thoughts may be wrong after a while. And that's why I like doing the Year Laters, because I actually take these cameras out into the real world and use them after we're done with them doing that initial review. And it's like, you have to do those videos. That is one of the things we're kind of forced, not by anybody, but forced by the chasing the numbers and knowing that if we don't, then someone we Know that if we don't do it, someone else is going to do it now they're going to watch their video and not watch ours. And I feel like it's a. I am doing a disservice to people. That's my own mental thing. We all. We all go through these things. Like, do you. Do you have any idea what your first non. This type of video is going to be?
- [35:20]
B
No, I have, like, I have some notions, but. But I haven't committed any idea. So I. I want to. I'll probably film it, but I want to tear down the set as it is.
- [35:34]
A
So you're undone the set?
- [35:36]
B
Yes. I don't know if that. I don't know what that. If that'll be a video or if it'll be part of a video or just like a little montage thing or something, but I want to tear that all down. And then I want to start to. Yeah, like, start to come up with, like, what I want the space to be for me. And it might take longer than I expect to try to remove because I could see myself being like, oh, that would be a good angle for this. I. Stop talking about angles. Stop it. You know, you don't. You don't need to stop worrying about angles. And so it might be a bit of, like a relearning process there, but then if I get it to a thing where I'm happy with, I. Two thoughts. One is like, to just kind of live in the space and then see what comes to me. But another one could be like, as I'm going through that process, if I'm like, you know, yeah, I'll keep using guitar as an example because it's an easy, lazy metaphor. But say I was like, in here, I'm, you know, I think I'd like to hang my guitar over there. And then there could be a possibility where it's like, why don't I just make a video about why this is the guitar I use and then I hang it on the wall, you know, and then. So it might not be a guitar, obviously, but let's call that the first example. So that's like. The first video is like, tore down the space. There's a new space, but it's kind of barren. But there's a guitar mount on the wall that's empty. I'm talking about a guitar. Then it goes on the wall. That's episode one, let's say. And so if you watch episode two, and now he's talking about some other thing we didn't Catch the first one, but. And then second thing goes on the wall later on. But then you see the guitar there. Maybe you'd be like, oh, I wonder why he's got that guitar on the wall. Maybe there's a story about that too, you know. And so the story is the like, you know, the stuff that becomes the space. Which might be more fun than just like just building it out and then doing like a reveal. Like that's, you know, that's what. That's the normal format.
- [37:15]
A
The way it sounds like is it sounds like you're confused on what you really want to do. For one, you're not sure, you know, because it's a big change and that's what I get out of it. Because you're torn between this. I wanna share my life in some sense, but then again, I don't wanna do it to the extent that I was doing it, where it feels like it's work and I just wanna talk to a camera. But if you just talk to a camera, will people pay attention? I think in this day and age, if you take people along for the journey, that's a good thing. Whether it's a 30 minute video or a 60 minute video of just free flowing people watching. Somebody's gonna watch and someone's going to engage. But then our brain starts to go, but, well, you know, if we edited just a little bit, then it would be more engaging. It's hard to disconnect. And I can sense that's where you are right now.
- [38:00]
B
I think a part of it will be learning to fight those things or compete against those urges because they definitely will exist. I already know every time if I just do a close my eyes and like, where do I want the chair to go? My brain immediately goes into like. But where will the light go? Where will the camera go? Where will the how's good for sound? And I'm like, is that what we're doing? Because I have a set that has lights and sound. Just. Just go in there then. So that's not. I'm gonna. There's gonna be a battle. It'll take me a while to fight off doing the exact just. And it's like you end up. You tear everything down, you shuffle around, you put it all back up and you're like, oh, I created the safe space again. You know, I've done this three times now, Jared, where I've like torn it all down. And then I have a new idea. And then I look back and like the new idea looks like it did three years ago, I just kind of like defaulted back to, you know, like, I need to, I need to fight against that. Um, the, the cool thing is, or I guess rather where the, where the allowance comes in is that, as you know, because you mentioned it, maybe you haven't been compelled to want to do anything really weird for your channel, but even if you did, you would have to find an opportunity to do that. But as you were going to do that, you're going to get the emails, you're going to get the other things. There's going to be an event, there's going to be a new cam, there's going to be a launch. And it is so easy to just get sucked back into the normal routine of whatever you were doing, which, again, isn't bad. It's a good business and it's, and it's, and it's a, you know, great lifestyle and stuff like that, but it just, it doesn't allow any exits because it feels like an endless sort of treadmill of like, doing the thing. And it's comfortable as well to just do what, you know, Like, I know how to review a camera. So if ever I was like, I don't know what to do. And then somebody sent me an email or say, I say, say a year ago I had an idea, right? But then I. And I was struggling with the idea, but then I got an email saying there's a new camera. I'll just be like, well, we'll figure out that idea next month. Let's do all these camera reviews now. But then next month there's more stuff and more stuff and more stuff. And I've been doing this for like two years of like, one of these days. And so what I felt like I had to do is I had to make a video that says, okay, no more camera views for me. I got it. I got something I'm trying to do. And I've said it's almost like accountability, where it's like I said, I'm gonna do it. Like, if you tell somebody, you're like, I'm gonna lose a bunch of weight. If you just tell yourself it's one thing, but if you tell, like, the public or whatever, then they're all gonna be looking at you like, is he losing the weight he said he was gonna lose? You know, so I've told the people that I'm doing it now. I feel like I have to be accountable to. If I just started posting camera reviews again without any notice, they'd be like, ah, he caved. You know, like so there's that bit of accountability there to buy me enough time to figure it out. That's. That's the idea.
- [40:31]
A
You know, you also need to not worry about what the commenters say.
- [40:36]
B
Yeah, I think, honestly, it was more like the people actually care about where, like, if I, you know, you tell your wife, you tell your friends or whatever, you're like, making a big change, you know,
- [40:47]
A
See, I'm Stephen and I talk about this all the time. Is I am not the person that will ever say big things coming. Right. I said, if something. When that thing happens, then talk about it. Right? That's my thing now. I don't have a problem with you sharing what you're doing, you know, that you're retiring from it. It's. Now let's, you know, we're gonna see what. What you do.
- [41:10]
B
Never. I never posted on the YouTube video. Five years from now, you're like, whatever happened to that guy?
- [41:15]
A
What. What did your wife think when you.
- [41:17]
B
When you told her she's happy because, well, obviously all. All along the way, like, I'll say something like, you know, she'd be like, what do you got on the docket today? Like, I'm reviewing this, whatever, working on this other camera. And then she's like, how's that going? And I'll just be like, I couldn't care less, you know, like, I don't. I don't want to do it. So if you hear somebody say that stuff for months and months and months, then when you say, you know what, you know what I'm going to do? I'm tearing the set down and I'm. I'm going to make videos about things I want. Then she's happy, you know, she's like, that's great. I'm glad you're finally doing that, because she's heard it all along, right? Yeah. I think the first way that I showed it to her is I had made, like, a little floor plan document, and I was like, moving furniture around in my mind. And so I kind of showed her that. And I was like, can I tell you what I'm thinking? And I said, what if I tore down all this and I put this here? And then I just kind of, like, just talked about stuff I want to talk about, whatever. And she. And she seemed legitimately, like, enthused for me, so that felt good. And everybody I've told since then, other than having a couple jokes about it, has been like, that's really cool. I can't wait to see. You know, and the comments on the video. Overwhelmingly like that too. Of like, you know, I'm very legitimately interested to see what's next. Which, you know, good YouTube advice in general is don't chase audience suggestions for things. But this isn't that. This is just like it could have been a bunch of people being like, it's cameras or nothing. You suck. Right. But instead it was kind of like, honestly, I too am, you know, less interested in cameras than I used to be. So I'm, I'm, I'm just interested to see just whatever you want to come up with. And will they still feel that way after two or three more videos? I don't know. But it's cool that the sentiment has been pretty much positive all the way around. Which is, which is great.
- [42:58]
A
You know, I think if you're going to do the breakdown, you might as well film it. Put a microphone on and just talk. Put the camera up somewhere. Put a ptz up somewhere, Let it follow you and just be like, I'm taking this down and this is what's on my mind and I'm sharing it with you guys. Welcome to my life.
- [43:14]
B
You know, I do like a tear down time lapse too. Yeah, I've done a couple in the past, which is why I didn't do one on that video. Everybody was expecting it at the end because I've done it like every time I move sets, I've done like a tear down time lapse and I was like, I'm not doing it this time. It'll be, if it's anything, it'll be like the beginning of whatever the next thing is. Right?
- [43:32]
A
Yeah. I guess we should probably put a bow on this one and then see where you end up.
- [43:38]
B
Yeah, we have to do a check in.
- [43:41]
A
Well, if anybody still remembers you by
- [43:43]
B
that time, you'll have to come do like, what do they call a wellness check on me or whatever. Hello?
- [43:48]
A
I'm in here in Canada. I don't know where.
- [43:50]
B
Just in an empty room. I couldn't figure it out. I wasn't able to solve it.
- [43:55]
A
Wrapped in purple cables.
- [43:57]
B
Exactly.
- [43:58]
A
Like, what's going on here? I mean, I obviously am looking forward to seeing what you're going to do. I empathize. I get it. I understand where you are and I just understand it. You know, we're close to it, so
- [44:14]
B
I appreciate it, Jared. Thanks.
- [44:15]
A
You know, I'm always here, as you know. You could always send me a text. We chat from time to time. And I know that a condo, the last time we were there, we Sat for a while, we had some conversations. And yeah, I mean, it's a small community and it's good when we share together to get off our chests whatever it is that we're. Whatever we're feeling or thinking. Because it's not easy. It's not easy, but it's also great. It's also great.
- [44:40]
B
That's true. Like I said, I try not to complain too much, even though sometimes I think I do a lot. But it's all within the context of this, right? Outside of this. You know, I think we all, we all know where we're at in the, in the grand scheme of the rest of the world. But if you're hanging around other YouTubers in the same context, then you can, you can whine a little bit, right?
- [44:59]
A
Is there, Is there any words you want to leave the listeners with at home?
- [45:07]
B
I think that my, like, my. There's an advantage because I have noticed in a couple comments that I'm not providing advice by doing this. I don't think that this is good YouTube advice. This is something where, like, it's worth trying. If you've already built an audience and you've been messing around for a decade or whatever it's like, then maybe you can see who's here for cameras and who's here to watch you, but it still makes sense to, if you're up and coming or focusing on YouTube channel, to do the other thing, which is to focus on an idea or a topic or a niche and, you know, drive it home, build the business, burn yourself out. All that kind of stuff is the correct approach to growing, growing YouTube business and not the nonsense I've been talking about. And so I don't want to come across as somebody who contradicted earlier points I had, because I have said in the past that you should do the opposite of this, which is, you know, like, yeah, pick. Focus on cameras or something and talk about cameras for a decade and then you'll grow like a strong YouTube business. That's. That's the correct approach. So what's that? My advice, My final word was going to be, what's that thing they would say, don't try this at home, kids, because I don't think this is going to succeed. But I'm doing it knowing that. That's why I'm a professional and I've taken the safety precautions. Right, Jared, I know that this will probably crash and burn, but I got my helmet on. I'm ready. All right.
- [46:40]
A
With that, we'll be undone. Thank you for sharing what's on your mind and what you're doing.
- [46:46]
B
Gerald, thanks for having me on.
- [46:47]
A
So there you have it, guys. That is my interview with Gerald undone. We found out why he's decided to retire, making the types of videos that he's been making, and we got an inside look at what's going on in his mind. It's kind of interesting because I sit here and I think about the things that he's saying and the way that he's saying them and I can tell that he's torn. It just feels like he's torn. He wants to try something different, but will he end up coming back to the same thing? And the truth of the matter is if you hate the thing that you're doing, you should not continue to do it. And he says he will not put his family in jeopardy. So if he didn't think that he had a cushion to go about doing the things the way that he's going to want to try and do them, then he wouldn't be doing it. So I really want to thank Gerald for coming on. I want to thank you guys for listening. Thank you very much, as always. And that's where I'll leave it, guys. Jared Polin Frono's photo.com See ya.