A (2:14)

So sky, welcome back. Thank you for joining us again.

C (2:17)

Thank you so much for having me.

A (2:20)

So last time we spoke, Democracy Forward was already doing critical work on voting rights, reproductive rights and the freedom to read. What are you focused on now since the 2024 election?

C (2:32)

We're certainly continue to be focused on all of that, but as you know, in 2023, just about after we spoke the last time, we started seeing reports about Project 25 and we read it cover to cover and we knew what it was when we were looking at it, which is a real existential threat to people and to communities and to democracy as a whole. And so in addition to our incredibly important work at the state level where we have been pushing back in the courts and in communities across the country on Project 2025 like policies for some time. We started building legal cases and legal theories about what we would do if the federal executive branch of the president came in and tried to accelerate the implementation of some of these most harmful and unlawful policies. So we have been busy at work all through 2024, working with a lot of organizations around the country to do the same. And then, of course, since Inauguration Day, where it has become clear that this president is seeking to accelerate an autocratic agenda, much of which is in Project 2025, some of which is from other playbooks. We've been in court every single day. We filed over 55 legal actions just in the last, you know, 90 days and are winning. But also, it's just a real challenge with all of the things that this administration is doing. So we've been quite busy, as you said.

A (4:03)

Right, right. Well, thank you for doing all of this work. And I want to backtrack a little bit here only to ask you this really basic question. Why does your work matter to all Americans? Because you're taking the administration to court, you have so many lawsuits, and you're actually succeeding. But I think some people maybe don't really know why this is important.

C (4:26)

Well, let me just say our work, I think, is quite essential. We work on behalf of all Americans. Our work transcends politics. It's not about what you believe or what you think or what side of the political spectrum you may be on about everyone in this country and the fundamental rights that our democracy provides, that our Constitution provides, that our society is supposed to provide for all people. And so when the government, whether it's a federal government or a state government, but when the government steps over those rights, when they ignore the systems and the laws that we have, that really are about enabling all of us to pursue happiness, to build our lives, to craft our futures in the ways that we want. It's important that those governments and governmental actors be held to account. And the courts are a real front line in doing that. And so we work across a range of issues that matter to people. But our work is essential for all people because we all have this fundamental dignity. We are all entitled to rights to. To the ability to live our lives, to the ability to come together. You know, we're entitled to the ability to petition our government and tell them to do better, all of those things. And we're seeing, of course, so many of those things under attack, unfortunately, by this presidential administration. And then, of course, in Certain states across the country as well.

A (5:51)

Mm. So tell me about what Democracy Forward's most important cases are right now that you believe has the most far reaching implications for democratic governance.

C (6:04)

Well, so many of our cases do because this is a really extraordinary time where you have an administration that is trying to accelerate a playbook that's not just about policy. People can disagree on certain policies, what a tax rate should be, you know, how certain things should be fashioned. But what we're seeing with this administration is an attempt to really accelerate a playbook that's about rolling back and backsliding the democratic and the democracy protections that we have and imposing a regime that is very autocratic in nature. And so, so many of our cases speak to that. But let me highlight a few. Alongside our friends at the aclu, we are representing people who were removed from this country without any process at all in a case where the administration has also, in addition to removing people from the country without any process, which nine justices at the U.S. supreme Court who do not agree on much have all said, you get some process in this country. Right. In addition to that, the judge in the case that has issued some orders, the administration has treated those as if they are optional, as if they are just mere suggestions, and as if the president and the federal government, the federal executive branch, is above the law. And so that's a big case that should really concern every single person in this country, because we are all in entitled to that process. And if this administration can remove someone from the country without any process at all, there's no guarantee that it won't be us or our loved ones or our communities or our families. And so I think that's one I would highlight for you.

A (7:45)

Yeah, that's a really big one. Disappearing people without due process is something new for Americans. What else is on top of your list?

C (7:55)

Another kind of series of cases I would highlight for you that I think are really incredibly important is the way in which the administration is weaponizing our government and weaponizing programs that Congress has put in place and spending authority that Congress has put in place to solve problems for people, they're weaponizing that against people, and they're really stepping on Congress's prerogative. When Congress appropriates funds for programs, whether it's a Head Start program or a Meals on Wheels program or a small business credit. Right. All of these things that we rely on in our daily lives, we're seeing the administration in many instances, try to stop or freeze those things without a lawful basis for doing so. So our team I'm so proud of them. Went into court, got a nationwide order that remains in effect that stopped the nationwide funding freeze. Last week, we won another order in a case where the administration had frozen funds that were supposed to be provided as part of the inflation Reduction act and the infrastructure bill. So we have a number of spending cases that are really, really important because it's not just about the programs, although that's what really matters to people and communities across this country. But it's also about the fact that you have a president that is trying to impede and impose on Congress's authority. So that's something that should concern all of us. And then I think the other category of cases I would highlight is the way in which the administration is really seeking to violate the privacy rights of people across the country. The federal government holds a lot of data about all of us and about families and about people across the country. And we've seen this president put Elon Musk and Doge in charge of going into agencies, trying to decimate them, you know, ruining their ability to function for people, which is a huge concern, but then also threatening the privacy of people's data. And so last week, we won another big court order keeping Elon Musk and Doge out of data at the Social Security Administration. All of us that have a Social Security number have personal information there that we're trusting the government with. Right. And so you're going to see us do a lot more work on that to protect individual Americans privacy, to make sure that our data isn't being weaponized against us, which is really important. So those are just some. And we've got a lot more. But those are some big ones, I think, that affect all of us, right?

A (10:23)

Yes. Yes, those are the big ones that affect all of us. I have a question about the disappearances because of course, you know, I'm thinking here about family separation during the first Trump administration and how today, in the year 2025, a thousand children are still not reunited with their parents. And let's say you win the case against the Trump administration on having to have due process before a person can be removed. I don't think that the people who have already been removed will ever come back. So what is the power of winning a case like this? And what's the promise behind this kind of work? And I know that, correct me if I'm wrong, the way that you're doing this is you're challenging the administration's expansion of War Powers act, which was used before to disappear people or to Take people off the streets without due process.

C (11:18)

Yeah. Well, let me start with that piece, and then we can talk about the complexities here and really what the power of winning in these cases are. The President has invoked something called the Alien Enemies act, which is a law that has only ever been invoked three other times in the country's history, in the War of 1812, in World War I and in World War II. And it has never been invoked in such a way as the President has done here in a time where we are not at war. So let me just start with that. We're not at war. We're not being invaded. He's invoking this extraordinary wartime power. But even when we were at war, and we've seen judges point this out from the bench as well, we've not had situations where people were deprived of process. You know, you have a judge on the D.C. circuit saying that in World War II, this country gave people that were accused of being Nazis or Nazi sympathizers more process than what they are giving people right now. The other thing about the Alien Enemies act overall, of course, is that it really was responsible in World War II for some of our nation's darkest days. I mean, this is a act that was invoked to incarcerate and in turn Japanese Americans, for which Congress, the courts and presidents have apologized because it's such a stain on our nation's values and on our nation's history. Right. So this is a extraordinary power, and it should not be being invoked, period. The end. Right. We're not at war. But with the way in which the President's invoking it even has the backs of all nine justices of the Supreme Court up, because truly, they're seeking to remove people without any process which even. Even offends the terms of this extreme wartime power. Right. So there's an extraordinary situation here, and that's why we and others are working so hard every day on these cases. Which brings me to the second piece that you raised, which is like, what does it mean? Because there's all of this harm that's happening, and I'll say a few things. One, we believe that there is a basis for people that have been removed to be brought back. I'm just going to say that, and we're going to continue to advocate for that in the courts, and you'll see that play out. But we also believe these cases are significant. Over the weekend, buses were turned around when the Supreme Court ruled because the Supreme Court said, do not remove anyone without due process. Without process. Right. Seven justices said that very late on Friday, early on Saturday morning, depending on your time zone. So I think that this is real. This is real implications for real people and not just for the people that you're seeing on the news who have been removed or been threatened to be removed now for all of us. Because when the president and the government takes a position that they can do something like this without any process, you know, first they come right for your neighbor, and then they come for you. And so that's why this is very important, that we be holding the line, that people be holding the line. You've seen members of Congress go to El Salvador just this last week. This is a big moment for the country. And so I think these cases are quite significant. And of course, we continue to have hope, and we're going to put action behind that hope that we can, of course, get people back who were removed improperly, unlawfully, without process, and in some instances, potentially even in contravention of court orders.

A (14:47)

Well, I'm glad that you're pointing out that it does matter to push back and to go to court and have these fights, because I think so much of the vibe, let's say, is that people just feel so defeated and sort of like they're gonna do whatever they want anyway and nothing matters anymore. So it's good to know that it does matter and that the work that you do does have effect and that buses have been turned around. I have a question about Project 2025 in relation to freezing of funds. You talked about how you read this cover to cover. It is, of course, a blueprint to systematically dismantle the administrative state. And the Trump administration wasted no time. They have already implemented a lot. How far along are they and what is yet to come?

C (15:37)

Well, look, I think when you and I talked about this even in 2023, and I just want to continue to say it, to give voice. Today, I'm on work travel, and I'm sitting in the state of Florida. Right. And of course, I'm from originally and grew up in and spent a lot of time in Texas. So I just want to give voice to that. The extremism that is in Project 2025 is an extremism that has been alive and well in communities and states across the country. It's not new to people in Texas, of course. We're going to see this week the governor sign a bill that will decimate public education in the state and do $1 billion into vouchers, which is really. It's one of the Project 2025 crown jewels. But this has been a foot for many years, right? And the decimation of public education, the misinformation, the disinformation. So I just want to make sure we're giving voice to the fact that in many communities across the country, which is why democracy forward state and local work is and has been and will continue to be so important, we see this playbook that's very far along. And then of course, now at the federal level, we have an administration that is wasting no time in accelerating what has happened. And so I think we are going to continue to see so much what they wanted to do in the first 100 days. And he said this. I don't understand it. I don't understand how you get elected. And then your first thing is, I'm going to shock and awe everybody. But that's what he says. I mean, that's like. It's just like, what are we doing here? Right.

A (17:02)

People voted for that, to be clear.

C (17:04)

You know, and I think that's an interesting point too, because I don't think people voted for so much of what he's doing. He said on the campaign trail that he didn't know anything about Project 2025. I mean, I know many of us did not find that credible. Right. But I do think that he actually was not willing to admit what he was going to do until he took power. And that's very concerning. You know, I don't think a lot of people voted for what we're seeing now because he went to length to distance himself in the campaign trail because this is so uniformly unpopular with conservatives, with liberals, with progressives. I mean, every single poll shows that these types of policies are unpopular, which is why now they're trying to dismantle our democracy because they don't have public support for the types of things they want to do. So they have to avoid credibility. But your question about how far along are they? Yeah, I think you've seen certainly some of the major things already start happening. The executive order that purports to dismantle the Department of Education, right. That was in there, that got a lot of headlines. Attacks on our professional civil service. And so that really matters to all Americans across the country because we all rely on a range of services, right? From the weather service to the way our food is inspected and the ingredients that are put on the back of food labels. Right. I mean, we're relying on the federal government being an honest broker in many ways that we may not appreciate every single day. And the people that are doing that work are people that are public servants that swear an oath to the Constitution. Right. And not to any political agenda. These are the career civil servants. You know, they work in Republican administrations. They work Democratic administrations. They're just there doing their jobs. And this administration has targeted those people and has started improperly firing them. We're going to see Schedule F, I believe, which is part of Project 2025, become accelerated this week. And then there's a range of these other types of proposals in Project 2025 that he has not implemented, but has said and promised that he will, that they're going to start accelerating now that we have people in the federal agencies. But the important thing that we all focus on is that people really are pushing back. And that's not just people at these marches, which has been very inspirational to see over the last few weeks. But in the courts, we have seen tremendous pushback from people and communities of all different backgrounds and ideologies, from judges that have been appointed by Democratic presidents, judges that have been appointed by Republican presidents, and judges that were appointed by President Trump himself. Right. And so this is something, when I say it's a moment that transcends politics. We are all Americans. There are many things that this country has said that it stood for that the administration is seeking to decimate that no one really supports. And so I think that's really what we want to use this moment to make sure that people are seeing what we all have in common and then using our power to push back and to demand more and better.

A (20:01)

So what if they manage to get to the end of Project 2025? What happens then? What's the plan?

C (20:10)

Well, I mean, you know, I think Project 2025 is a piece of it. And of course, there are autocratic playbooks that we've seen played out across the globe. You've discussed these on your other episodes. Right. That also are instructive here.

A (20:23)

Right.

C (20:23)

But this is an administration that does not want this country to be governed by the people. Right. They don't want a government that is of, by and for the people. And so I think a range of the project 2025 plans really decimate the of government of, by and for the people. We're going to take our career, civil servants that serve all of us. We're going to replace them with political loyalists that only serve a narrow agenda of one person or one movement. We're going to decimate agencies whose job that Congress put in place in order to serve the American people, sources of federal funds that everybody in this country relies on in ways that we may recognize and that we may not recognize. And so that's, I think the end game is to create such a chaotic and harmful series of situations. It's going to get worse for people. Nobody's life has gotten easier in the last 90 days. That's something we need to really focus on, that then the administration can use this chaos that they themselves have created as a way to try to consolidate and take more power than they are supposed to have in a democracy and to impose a, a system of governing that's not consistent with the rights and freedom of people. So, I mean, I think that's what we are concerned about. That's what we see them clearly trying to do. But the good news is that people in this moment have power. And you see that in our work in the courts. But we also see that in so many ways in communities across the country and people starting to stand up and push. I mean, look at what happened with the president on tariffs. Right?

A (21:58)

Right.

C (21:58)

So I think that, you know, this fight isn't over, but it's going to depend on people, I think, coming together, not giving up and tuning out all the voices out there that are made to make them think that there's nothing that we can do in our own lives to make a difference.

A (22:14)

Yes, we definitely can do something.

B (22:23)

We'll be back with sky in just a moment, so stay close. You just can't miss this episode's civic spark. One small step we can all take to be more empowered and ignite collective change. But first, when I started Future Hindsight.

A (22:38)

Eight years ago, it seemed like I.

B (22:40)

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A (25:24)

In the United States.

B (25:26)

Listen to feed into the Hustle on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. And now let's return to my conversation with Sky Perryman.

A (25:42)

Let's turn to your comments about Elon Musk and Doge. Of course, you know, the existence, the existence of Doge alone is a wild card in a way that I think wasn't really spelled out in Project 2025. And of course, Elon Musk's appointment was also a big surprise. And of course he's leaving the government to run Tesla after the Stock is down 71%. Or is it the stock? Or is it the performance, the sales? But in any case, he's leaving the government. But of course, the destruction of institutions have been made exponentially worse because of the existence of Doge. And a lot of the dam damage is permanent.

B (26:24)

So I wonder where does it leave.

A (26:26)

Us as a nation of laws?

C (26:28)

You know, let me first of all say Doge was not on the bingo card, right? This was another type of thing that Trump distanced himself from in the election. He certainly was hanging around Elon Musk, and we saw that influence and many people were concerned about it, but they didn't level with the American people. And no one in this country elected Elon Musk to come in and run roughshod over the American people's rights, which is what we're seeing. I think the courts really are stopping a lot of what Doge is seeking to do. That does not mean that people in communities across the country are feeling the effects of that. I just want to be very clear. This is an administration that has vowed to, quote, govern by shock and awe. The chaos for them is the point. You know, we're not going to be able to stop all of that when they're so intent on it. But the courts are stopping a large part of it, which is why you now see Elon Musk and senior members of the administration coming out and targeting, seeking to intimidate judges, seeking to intimidate lawyers. You've had the American Bar association have to come out and, and denounce these types of truly unprecedented attacks we've seen, because the courts are not standing for so much of what Doge is doing. They've blocked them from accessing data in an order we won. They've said they have to delete or disgorge the data of, you know, individual Americans, which is very positive. And they're starting to take discovery and really shine a light on what's happening with Doge, which is something the administration doesn't want because they ultimately do not want to be held accountable to the people because it's so deeply unpopular among all Americans. And so in terms of your question, where does this lead us as a nation of law? I certainly think we've seen that our institutions and our system of laws is being pressure tested in many ways. And in some ways it's really delivering and it's really holding. And in other ways, I think that there are good notes to make about what we should do whenever there are people in government, in the executive branch, and in the majorities in Congress that care about people and democracy and the rule of law. Because I do think that there are additional protections that we need to demand as people in this country that we have against an effort like this in the future. But I will say that we're encouraged in large part by some of the things coming out of the courts. And part of their strategy, of course, is to distract people. And so we need to start looking at over the next 100 days.

B (29:02)

Right.

C (29:02)

Is what is going to really happen with Doge? Was it a front to come in and do what they want to do, which is to accelerate Project 2025, decimate agencies, you know, move fast and break things as opposed to moving fast and fix things, which is what our team is doing, right? Or is this something that the President is deeply committed to and is going to continue to pursue? In which case I think you're going to see a pushback, not just in the courts, but I think you will continue to see pushback from people. And even though many people do not have confidence in Congress right now, and there's a lot of reason to doubt Congress because they have not been taking the action they need to take, I think that you will see that it will just become unworkable where they will have to do something. But who knows? This all could have been the hundred day shock and awe distraction to really mask for something else. And I think that's what many of us are looking at and analyzing as we figure out how to protect people in the coming days.

A (29:59)

I have to say I'm a little bit surprised that Congress has not pushed back, frankly, at all. Being a co equal branch of governance, I just was like, you're really gonna do nothing. You're just gonna go along with everything. It's so bananas. But I have a question about challenging executive orders and the fact that the court system is being pressured right now. The Trump administration wants to deny birthright citizenship, which of course is enshrined in the Constitution's 14th Amendment. And obviously we know that the president cannot change the Constitution with an executive order. This has already been challenged in various places. But now the Supreme Court will hear oral arguments on May 15 on the federal government's request to be allowed to implement the president's executive order ending birthright citizenship. So what do you anticipate as a probable outcome here and what might that mean for constitutional interpretation?

C (31:03)

Well, I wanted to say that the president cannot, with the stroke of a pen, change the Constitution. That is what he is trying to do. And I'm not in the business of predicting how courts will rule, and certainly I'm not in the business of predicting how the Supreme Court will rule. I think you've already seen this court stop the administration on a few areas where they really have overstepped the bounds of constitutional authority. And so I certainly hope that's what we see here. This is not a close case. This is not a complicated legal issue. You know, this is not the type of thing that reasonable people disagree or agree to disagree on. The Constitution is quite clear. And that's what you've seen every federal court in this country hold and so we'll have to see how the arguments, what questioning comes out of the arguments, how the court looks at this. But you know, my sincere hope, of course, is that it's hearing arguments to put to bed once and for all this myth that the President continues to want to repeat time and again to make it so right that he has some power to alter the constitutional rights of people. So, you know, we are watching that very close and we're of course supporting all the attorneys that are engaged in that work.

A (32:26)

Well, you mentioned earlier that you are analyzing the first 100 days in order to have an idea of what's gonna happen in the next hundred days. And what is your early analysis at this point?

C (32:40)

I think that for lawyers, we are going to have to continue to be quite sharp and aggressive on ensuring that when we win court orders. And by the way, I just wanna say this again, courts in this country are ruling against this administration across the country in diverse courts, diverse judges with different backgrounds. This is not some situation where everybody's filing in one court and that, you know, that's how the far right legal movement operated when they would go file in Amarillo, Texas. That's not what's happening here. Right. People are filing in courts across the country to vindicate the rights of people. And judges, Republican appointed, Democratic appointed, appointed by President Trump himself, are finding that the administration has engaged in conduct that requires that the courts issue orders to stop it, to slow it, to investigate it. That's a positive thing that we've seen in the first 100 days. I think a lot of people might have doubted whether that would even happen. Right, right. But I think the next 100 days is going to be about the lawyers and the advocates who are winning these orders and who are being successful in defending their clients rights in court, ensuring that we are also using the power of the courts to enforce the orders that have been issued. In some instances, not in all instances, but in some instances, the administration has taken unlawful positions around their, you know, need to not comply with court orders. And you've seen John Roberts come out and issue a statement about the attacks and the threats against judges that have ruled against the administration. You've seen Judge Wilkinson, who is the judicial conservative on the 4th Circuit, last week issued an opinion that was a real, I think a very clear call about what is at stake here. The rule of law applies to everyone, including the president, including all of us. And so that's going to be a huge focus in the courts over the next 100 days. And I do believe that the courts have the power that they need to ensure compliance, to hold the administration to account. But I think the administration is going to push the limits every single time, and it's going to take judges and the court and lawyers staying quite vigilant about that. So that's one area I think that we're just going to start seeing the real centerpieces of Project 2025. The administration's going to attempt to do more of these things in the first 100 days. Many agencies across the federal government, they didn't even have Senate confirmed leaders yet because that process was taking place. Now people are in place in the federal agencies. And so you're going to start seeing the administration try to implement policies at the agency level. And many of them probably come out of the Project 2025 playbook. Some of them may be lawful, you know, and if they're lawful, the administration gets to do that. A number of them will be unlawful and will need to be challenged. So I think you'll see that. And then to your point on Congress, I think we really are going to have to see what happens. I think that the president's support in Congress does seem to be waning a bit. I mean, the administration taking a number of positions just in recent weeks, that truly is making life so much harder for Americans. Regardless of whether you're in a red state or a blue state. Right. At some point, these members of Congress who were elected, you know, are accountable to their home communities. You see a number of members of Congress in the president's party canceling town halls because they can't justify what's going on. That is not something that can just continue because the people do have power and they're using the phones. And so I'm really watching for that over the summer to see, you know, what the next hundred days has in store that way, because I think you're going to see more pushback. And of course, the courts will also continue to be a place of pushback.

A (36:27)

Right, right. It's just not sustainable for these members of Congress. And you remind us, of course, that everyday Americans do have power. So every week on Future Hindsight, I ask my guests to share a civic spark, one small step we can all take to be more empowered and ignite collective change. So what's a good way to turn the insights that you've shared with us just now into action?

C (36:54)

Well, one, we are launching at Democracy Forward, a program called Dinners for Democracy and Coffees for Change. So if you're not a dinner person, you can do A coffee. You can also just, just do a meetup and everyone that's listening can go to democracy4.org and find information about how to participate. We have ways that you can participate with no cost. And then we also have some ways that if you want to spice it up more, we have some resources that are available. We are going to be providing resources to people across the country, by the way, by popular demand. This is what we've heard from people in our work across the country to gather folks in their community, whether it's dear friends, whether it's colleagues or co workers, whether it's people that you know, you don't know that well, but you're coming together around things that are happening in your community and to really be able to take action both at the local level. In many communities across the country, we see threats to democracy right there. Right. School boards are being taken over by people who don't want to support teachers and don't want to support the freedom to read. Libraries are being defunded. You know, there's issues in people's own communities. And then of course there's these broader national issues that need a lot of work and support. And so we are launching Dinners for Democracy. Would love everyone to come find out about how you can participate in this time. And really the philosophy behind that and the spark, I would say, to answer your question, is that one of the most sort of sought after tools that this administration is seeking to wield and that we know that extreme and far right actors and autocratic actors try to wield in societies across the globe where autocracy is sort of at the gates is to deprive people of hope and to try to convince people that there is nothing that people can do to push back in this time. Right. That the executive branch, in this instance the President's administration is like all so powerful that there's nothing that you can do. And so why even try? That's one of the reasons, by the way, they're trying to say we don't have to follow court orders. They actually want to just deter people from going to court because. Because the courts do matter and they're losing in court and we're winning things. So. So dinners for democracy and coffee for change is a way in which people can come together and resist that isolation, to build some community and then to identify within those groups areas that you can make change either in your home communities, at a national level by following and engaging with some of our work, with the work of other organizations, by getting smarter about Issues. Right. And having a plan about how you're going to get real information, not misinform, like listening to podcasts like this and really intaking good information. So I would like to encourage everyone, as part of that spark, to come learn about Dinners for Democracy and Coffee for Change. And if you don't want to do that, I would like to encourage everyone to just in your home communities, to resist isolation, to make sure that we're understanding. They want us to feel as if we have no power. And we have the power to say no to that every single day, and to say yes to building a future for ourselves, for our families, for our communities, and for the country that is brighter than where we are today. And that, to me, I think it's more important than anything people can do right now is really figuring out how we're going to keep hope, keep our agency about us, and mobilize for action.

A (40:26)

Oh, thank you. This is all good advice and I definitely want to. To join Dinners for Democracy.

C (40:30)

Yes. You'll have to host one. Maybe I'll come up, we can host one together.

A (40:34)

Yeah, I would love that. I would love that. So, last question. Looking into the future, what makes you hopeful?

C (40:41)

Well, I have seen so much courage from the people and the communities that our team has the pleasure of representing every single day. These are people from educators to small business owners to parents to veterans, doctors, researchers, journalists. I mean, you name it, right? The people that we've been in court on behalf of every single day are looking at this very scary situation, a situation, by the way, where the President tries to call out and intimidate people from even going in and trying to defend their rights. And they have looked that right in the face and they have not blinked. And they have said, this is our country, These are our rights. This is our chance at a future. And we're not going to allow this to happen without using what we can do in our power to push back at a time when we've seen major institutions capitulate, misunderstand the assignments, you know, whatever we want to call it. Yes, we have seen people across this country that may not be the most powerful right in all the ways people measure and build power, saying, we know who we are, we're the American people, we're people, and we're here, and this is our country, and these are our rights. And we are not going to allow this country to further backslide into an autocratic dystopian reality without pushing to do something better and brighter for the future. And it inspires me it inspires our team every single day. And then, of course, I have hope with the individuals that I have the pleasure of working with every single day. At Democracy Forward. When you wake up and there's a court order that's been won or there's a case that's been filed or there's a voice that's been amplified, that did not happen. You were powered by humans. We're not powered by AI. That didn't happen automatically. It happened because people were doing the work every single day. And it's so inspiring. It gives me hope, and it's what we're going to have to do beyond these hundred days.

A (43:00)

Amen. Well, thank you very much. That is indeed very, very hopeful and so inspiring. Thank you for joining me on Future Hindsight. It was really a pleasure to have you back on the show.

C (43:11)

Thank you so much.

A (43:13)

Sky Perriman is president and CEO of Democracy Forward, which uses the law to build collective power and advance a bold, vibrant democracy for all people. Remember, civic action doesn't have to be complicated. It's about small steps that spark progress, like sharing this episode with a friend. Let's recap this week's Civic Spark and fire up, up our collective power.

B (43:39)

Head over to democracyforward.org to learn more.

A (43:42)

About how you can participate, whether that's at dinners for democracy or grabbing coffee for change. It's an easy way to rally communities and come together to take action at the local level.

B (43:54)

That's right, the local level.

A (43:56)

Like we always say, one of the most important tools in fighting against autocracy is hope. So don't fall for the sentiment of why should I try? But build community and try together. That's how we will all make change.

B (44:18)

Next week on Future Hindsight, we're joined by Elaine Weiss. She's the author of Spell the Underground Schools that Built the Civil Rights Movement, which tells the incredible story of four actors whose audacious plan to restore voting rights to black Americans laid the groundwork for the civil rights movement.

C (44:36)

If our government is based on elected representatives, which it is, both at the national level and at the state and local level, going down to townships, then if you can't vote, you have no voice in the laws that rule you. In the execution of those laws, in the allocation of resources, you have no power.

B (45:06)

That's next week on Future Hindsight. Now be sure to follow us on your podcast app. We're here every week with brand new episodes to help you stay engaged. And I know that you do not want to miss a beat. Follow Future Hindsight now, so we'll be in your rotation every week. And if you want to support Future Hindsight and all the work we do as an independent pro Democracy podcast, join the Civics Club on Patreon. Head over to patreon.com futurehiinsight thanks for tuning in and until next time, see clearly, act boldly and spark the change you want to see. This episode was produced by Zach Trapped, Travis and me.

C (45:57)

This podcast is part of the Democracy Group.