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Future Hindsight
From Protest to Power: Jonathan Pulphus
00:36:49
We discuss the enduring power of protesting and the significance of the Ferguson uprising in the long arc of the Black liberation movement. Jonathan’s civic action toolkit recommendations are: 1) Speak with a young person in your...
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- [00:00]
A
Did you know Congress has already proposed over 9,000 bills this year? Issue Voter helps you keep up by providing you with easy to understand updates on congressional bills and tracking how your representative votes. It's fast, easy, and allows your voice to be heard. Visit issuevoter.org to stay connected with what matters. Welcome to Future Hindsight, a podcast on a mission to spark civic action. I'm your host, Mila Atmos. I'm a global citizen based in New York City, and I'm deeply curious about the way our society works. So each week I bring you conversations to cut through the confusion around today's most important civic issues and share clear, actionable ways for us to build a brighter future together. After all, democracy is not a spectator sport. Tomorrow starts right now. Democracy is a practice, and activism is one of the most powerful ways to practice it. Whether it's student organizing on campus, community mobilization in places like Ferguson, or the countless ways people come together to demand change, activism transforms our democratic ideals into lived reality. Today's guest, Jonathan Polfus, cut his teeth as an organizer during the Ferguson protests, where he learned what it really takes to create lasting change. Jonathan is an organizer from St. Louis, Missouri, co founder of the community organization Tribe X and the author of With My Life, justice and Activism beyond the University. As we face a political moment where activism feels more crucial than ever, his insights couldn't be more timely. Welcome, Jonathan. Thank you for joining us.
- [01:58]
B
Thank you for having me, Mila.
- [02:01]
A
So let's start with your journey. You were in College at St. Louis University when Michael Brown was killed and you became a student activist. How did you get involved in the protests in Ferguson? What prompted you to jump in and participate?
- [02:16]
B
Yeah, thank you for that question, Mila. So prior to the murder of Michael Brown by Officer Darren Wilson, who we're still trying to hold accountable, I was reared in social activism, community organizing, mobilization from the early ages of middle school. Going into high school, I benefited from the tutelage of Queen Mother Ramona Taylor Williams and my mother, Mama Lola, who were grassroots organizers connected to an organization called Metro St. Louis Coalition for Inclusion and Equity M slice. And they would do various projects in north St. Louis city. If you know anything about north St. Louis city or St. Louis in general, we have this line called the the Del Mar divide that separates the haves from the have nots. So south of Del Mar, which is deemed safer, more invested, more artsy, happens to be majority white, middle class and upper class, whereas the north side of Del Mar, where I was raised, happens to be majority black, working class and divested from. So we have high rates of homicides there, high rates of sex work, high rates of drug trafficking, dilapidated buildings, environmental issues, all these different things that were a function, a product of a system of both racism, systemic injustice, et cetera. And so being reared in that environment, some people, it would push you away and make you want to move. But my mom and queen mother Ramona reminded me about the importance and on future hindsight we talk about how democracy is not a spectator sport. You have to be active, you have to be involved. So they taught me to do just that. And so we would do things like community gardening to address food deserts, doing call outs to elected officials about gun violence in the community. It's in this context that I matriculate through St. Louis University. And then my sophomore year at SLU, Michael Brown was murdered. So all these different lessons, all these different examples that were modeled for me about speaking out, about calling out injustice, came to a fold in the face of child murder. Even though Michael Brown was technically 18, which is an adult, still silly young adult. And so quickly me and other people who are also concerned citizens society, we weren't going to take that injustice, we weren't going to let it just happen and not address it. And we chose to be in the streets for over a year. A lot of people who were involved in the Ferguson uprising are still activists, still doing work.
- [04:52]
A
Right? Right. So you are actually in a way primed for this moment to jump in and participate. And with regards to specifically because of course you just mentioned a lot of the injustices that your community faces. But when it comes specifically in response to the Michael Brown killing, what was the justice that you were seeking?
- [05:15]
B
So of course after the murder there was just calls for transparency, right. The arrest of the officer, prosecution of the officer for murder, and a larger call for addressing the root causes that led and precipitated to something like that happening. Unfortunately, what we ended up getting was a non indictment by the then prosecuting attorney, Robert McCullough. And then once he was pushed out of office due to the worker folks and uprising activists and organizers and community members, we got another prosecuting attorney named Wesley Bell, who some of them call him Chocolate McCullough or call him Wesley Sell. He also refused to press charges against Darren Wilson, but now he's pushed and moved. Cori Bush, who was a elected official that came out of the Ferguson uprising, she was in the streets like so many other people who had no prior political experience, but held bullhorns and called out for truth and accountability, went from holding a bullhorn to being on the ballot box. But she was then toppled by Wesley Bill. So this system continues to find ways to sneakily protect and defend the status quo and things as they are. But to answer your question, that's what we were calling for. Just simple account. A person a doesn't get to go out there, whether they have a badge or not, shoot somebody in cold blood and then walk free. But for some reason, when this officer did that, there was a lot to go on. So, yeah, we didn't want that going unchecked.
- [06:51]
A
Yeah, thank you for laying that out because I think sometimes people forget, especially with some distance from the event, what people were really asking for. So I know that organizing and protesting can be chaotic in the moment. There are so many moving parts. And when, when you're falling from afar, reading or watching the news, like not being on the ground where you are, a lot of the details are missed. What was it like to be organizing on the ground?
- [07:19]
B
Yeah, so it was a mix of both beauty and chaos. Right. So you had the National Guard eventually called in really as early as August 10, which is when I really went out in response to Michael Bromic's murder, said a Aug. 9, and my mom had called me and informed me that a young brother had been shot and killed by police. And so, you know, I was 19, I was about a year older than Michael Brown at the time. And I got some of my brothers and sisters I knew we all just went out as students trying to respond to everything that was going on. And when I say it was beauty and chaos, beauty in terms of being able to come in contact with people who are on the same sheet of music. You know, we all were out there, a lot of us were meeting for the first time outside of the people that we immediately knew, calling for the same thing, right? That there needs to be justice. We would not allow child murder to go unaddressed. And despite the threats, despite the attacks, despite the state's efforts through five second rules, LRAD cannons, pepper spray, wubber bullets, all these different mechanisms of terror that they launched against us, we refused to stay in the house and we remained in the streets. That's the chaos part about it, is all the various attacks, all the various obstacles that were put in our way that we had to navigate through, we had to love each other through, we had to defend each other through and protect each other through as we lifted Michael Brown's name into both national and international consciousness. Before I move on, I do want to just take a moment to Acknowledge those who were involved in that moment who are no longer with us, not necessarily due to natural. So there are those like Deborah Steven, who have passed away, but I'm thinking about those who have allegedly overdosed following their involvement, like Basim Masri, a Palestinian brother, son of Zudi, who was a business owner on the north side when I was a kid doing that mobilizing work I was telling you about. His shop was a haven for that neighborhood. I'm thinking about Darren Seals, who was found shot and burnt up in a car not too far from where Michael Brown was murdered in the county just earlier this week. Allegedly, it was a defense with Dorian Johnson. He was the first and really the best and only eyewitness to the murder of Michael Brown. Dorian Johnson was just murdered. So we've endured a lot of losses in this moment, and yet we still continue to face and fight and be civically engaged in our own way all the way up to 2025. So, yeah. Hmm.
- [10:00]
A
Well, thank you for sharing that. I did not know about these continued losses and injustices, and I'm sorry for your loss. You start your book with a chapter called Does Protesting Work? Which is a great follow up to what you just said. You know, your work endures. I know that your answer is definitely yes. So tell us more about the power of protesting.
- [10:26]
B
For sure. So. And for young people listening, one of the key points I want to hone in, zoom in on, and lift up with the book is about the importance of risk taking young people. And I've said this before on the platforms, especially those going to college for the first time, you're on your own. You don't have that parental oversight. Of course you can reach them by phone. Even if you go to a college in the same city you did high school or you were born in, when you're on campus, you're on your own. So your sense of morality, your sense of faith, your sense of self, all those different things are being tested for the first time when you're having to actually live what it is that you were taught. And you have the opportunity and the space and the capacity to challenge those things. And so in the same spirit of that, politics comes up, social life comes up, cultural life comes up. There are attacks on all different sides you're gonna face. And you have to say to yourself, you know, what is it that I'm willing to be okay with? And what is it that I'm not willing to be okay with? And when you realize and face that which you disagree with, how do you Go about organizing around that. So I'm thinking about students at Columb, I know that's your alma mater, Mila, who were speaking out against anti genocidal attacks that have been happening. And the nation is slow, real slow. Young people tend to have their pulse on what's happening real quickly. When we talk about the power of protests, I'm thinking about what their efforts are out there, the efforts to combat kidnappings that are happening under the guise of national security or ice. Thinking about how throughout history, young people have always been on the front lines, even though they're often depicted as. I guess nowadays it'd be the tiktokers, and they're insular and they're in their own bubbles and stuff. That's far from the truth. They know that they will be carrying the torch into the future of democracy. The first time being able to vote. All these different things are coming up. And so we talk about the power of protest. We're talking about the power to be able to leverage civic engagement, to envision a democracy that's more inclusive, that does not kneel to the foot of oppression, and it seeks to advance outcomes and wins and games. And it can't be done without risk taking.
- [12:43]
A
Yes, for sure. Young people have been at the forefront of taking risks, and like you said, they're on the forefront of the pulse of what the nation's actually thinking. I mean, if you look, for example, at opinion polls about what's happening in Gaza, for sure a majority of Americans are against what's happening there. And the genocide of the Palestinians. Palestinian people. So one of the concrete successes of your organizing is the Clock Tower accords, which came about after an encampment. Speaking about Columbia and the encampments, so. Which came about after an encampment during midterms in the fall of 2014. And I think that's saying a lot, right? Because of course, we saw a lot of the encampments on college campuses Last year, in 2024, across the country, and they did not achieve the same or similar outcomes to what you were able to achieve with the Clock Tow. How was your approach different? What made it successful?
- [13:41]
B
Yeah, I would say one thing about this book I want to really emphasize is that there is no silver bullet when it comes to protests. When it comes to these campaigns, I look at it as organizing 101, just to give you the basics and give you some of the more elementary perspectives to look at when organizing. So when we talk about the Clock Tower, of course, it was like the sun and the moon and the stars all aligned in a certain kind of way. Now, not to be facetious about it because it's very serious, but we had the benefit of a tremendous amount of community support coupled with student support to leverage and make the Clark Tower course, or what was supposed to be called was the Occupy student demands. And so when we led the occupation of St. Louis University, we had thousands and thousands and thousands of both students and people who were not students involved. And so I don't know the ratio of how that happened with Columbia, if it was just 90% students, 10% community, or if it was just 100% student participation. But because we had people who were not beholden to the campus, didn't have to answer, weren't tuition paying people who were just there to stand in solidarity with the students and to lift up the same cause that were being led or the root causes that led to the murder of Michael Brown. We were able to leverage that community and student support to get the university president at the time, Dr. Fred Pestello, to agree to some concrete demands that we felt would advance equity, address social ills on campus and in community. So I would say that's really a big part of it. You want to get people outside of your campus involved. And I know it's kind of hard because often, especially when you're a freshman at these college campuses, depending on where the university you attend is located, they often discourage young people from going outside the quote unquote gates of their campus. Right. Like maybe they can go a block over here or a block over there where there may be some restaurant stores and stuff like that nearby to support or depend on the economic base of the university. But for the most part, they tell you, you know, don't go past this block. Like at Slew it was, don't go past Del Mar, that same block I was telling you about earlier. And I'm from where you telling them not to go past, you know, so you gotta kind of push against that bubble. So it goes back to what I was saying earlier about risk taking, do community engagement. Nothing's wrong with going to neighborhoods and educating folk. Often what you find out is the community feels the kind of way about the university because they're getting all these messages about how that same school that may be a few blocks over is a space and place they can never attend because either they can't afford it or don't have the access. And so they're eager to meet students from these institutions who are concerned about community affairs. And so I would say that's very important, emphasizing community engagement and then leveraging that with the momentum you have as students on campus, using those two things to achieve what you want.
- [16:54]
A
Yeah, the community aspect is really important and I would say that that is definitely not part of the organizing at Columbia. They did not really engage with the local community. And you know, that speaks directly to what you said just now, that universities have always warned you against spreading your wings beyond the gates of the camp. We'll be back with Jonathan in just a moment, so stay with us. You don't want to miss this episode's civic spark. One small step we can all take to be more empowered and ignite collective change. But first, if you're looking for another podcast to serve as a companion to future hindsight, you should listen to Fiasco Benghazi. On Fiasco, Leon Nayfak transports listeners to the day to day realities of our country's most pivotal historical events in the aim to shed light on the present by revisiting the forgotten twists and turns of the past. The newest season examines the 2012 attack in Libya that left four Americans dead, including Ambassador Chris Stevens, and the ensuing political storm which raised questions about America's role in the world and established a playbook to weaponize attention in the social media age. Listen to Fiasco Benghazi wherever you get podcasts now let's return to my conversation with Jonathan Pulpit. So you talked about how the system sneakily stays the same. And so I'm wondering what you learned about working within the system while pushing for change.
- [18:42]
B
For sure, I think it's incredibly important. That's why I emphasized earlier some of the individuals who were on the streets raising their voices, holding bullhorns were now in ballots. So I'm thinking about Rasheen Aldridge, who had no prior political experience but ended up becoming the Democratic Committee man, then the state rep, and now he's an alderman in the city of St. Louis. Think about Alicia Sanier, who was a part of my protest group Tribe X, no prior political experience, ended up joining the board of the St. Louis Board of Education. Now, as an Ottoman, I think of the 7th Ward in St. Louis City. Jamie Cox, Cori Bush, Bruce Franks, when you're talking about working the way in which the system sneakily kind of tries to revert some of the gains and some of the wins that we have. That's why it's important for organizers to pace themselves in doing this work. It's one thing to have these elected seats. It's one thing for us to be executive directors, C suite individuals and Companies and all these different things. But if we aren't taking care of ourselves, checking in with one another, if we don't have a common agenda, then it's easy for the enemy to infiltrate, it's easy for the opposition to fracture, and it's easy for us to turn on one another. And that happens in movements throughout history. Right. Cointelpro. Right. The way in which J. Edgar Hoover, that monster, tore a part of the Black Panther Party out of Chicago. Fair Hampton, if you're not familiar with Fred Hampton to the audience, I encourage you to Judas and the Black Messiah. There was a mold placed within the ranks of the Black Panther Party who were doing things like free healthcare, free breakfast and lunch, things like that. But because it was not the traditional, quote, unquote, American way that the government thought things should be run, and they tried to throw in things like, oh, it was socialism and all these other things, they put a mold in the organization who ultimately led to the state sponsored assassination of one of the leaders in that chapter. So that's more of an extreme, but there are nuances and contours of how that happens in real life and in real time, either in student organizing, community organizing, all these different things. So, for example, we did get the clock tower course accomplished by SLU, right. It has been about 11 years since it was signed, and there have been gains and wins that have come out of it, but not to the level of substance that we initially hoped for. Part of the reason why I think things have been a little bit more sluggish is because our movement was indeed fractured, held back from its full potential due to some things like personality issues, ego issues. I'm not perfect. I have my own flaws. But I want to emphasize that it's nice and it's great that we get wins, but we got to be ready to protect them. And that's the main thing I want to emphasize. Mm.
- [21:44]
A
Yeah. I think group dynamics complicate in a way. Volunteer work everywhere. Right. Because you're not getting paid for this. So it's much more difficult to bridge some of these personal problems. So. So you talked about the Black Panther Party and how they provided breakfast and healthcare and really were in solidarity and support of local communities. And I think a lot of people don't know that about the Black Panther Party. I think a lot of people think it's a radical movement party that was about fighting the government. And so in that context of Europe, activism and of course, understanding how so many talking points can be twisted, what is the role of narrative control in Your mind.
- [22:33]
B
Thank you for that question, Mila. Narrative control is a huge part of the battle, right? It's why we really have to understand this term socialization. And so when we talk about socialization, it's this idea that there are these messages that we get through media, through what we read, through the radio, culturally, socially, that inform our worldview. And socialization teaches us who is worthy, who is not worthy, whose perspective is valuable, whose pain is to be sympathetic to, whose joy is to be celebrated. All these different things are messages that we're inundated with all the time to combat some of the ills that come out and some of the yuck that comes out of some of that socialization. Because a lot of it's determined by Empire. When we talk about narrative control and organizing, it's important that we leverage certain tools to make sure that our story is clear, our story is concise, and that we all are on the same sheet of music. And that we have platforms that allow us to tell our stories unfiltered, raw and truthfully. Because what ends up happening is you get to situations like what happened with the Ferguson uprising, where if you weren't here in 2014 and you just saw what happened on TV or you heard things on the radio, you would think that all that came out of Ferguson was a bunch of burning buildings, looted businesses, weave stealing liquor, stealing drunk, unruly, tattooed, dread, shaggy pants. You have all these different images that come up. And while a lot of that is true, what's also true is the fact that doesn't get reported is the relationships that were formed, the organizing that happened that led to things like the Clark Tyro courts, or Robert McCullough having to step down from his position, or the workhouse in St. Louis City, which was a medium security institution that violated the civil rights of so many people in St. Louis City. How that was closed down after being in existence, I think for about 30 years, the elections of all these individuals into public office, how Darren Wilson won't even show his face in St. Louis anymore. There are many things that came out of what we did that didn't get captured by Fox News, msnbc. And part of what narrative control. One of the tools we were able to leverage was social media. If you go on my Twitter page, Pope as J not shameless plug. But if you go on my page, I didn't create that because I wanted to be social on Twitter. I created that as an organizing mechanism to narrative control in those early days because there would be reports about things where the police Would say stuff like, oh, no, we had to arrest 10 people because we heard gunshots. And the whole time it was like a firework that popped off. Right. All these different things happen. And with social media, because we have control over our own platforms to a degree, because they sometimes censor some things, we were able to give of the honest, unfiltered and raw truth. So for young people today, I guess that's TikTok and even that's being contested. Right. And so I would encourage young people to tell their own stories, document everything. Part of why I was able to write a book like this is because I was also journaling what I was also experiencing. And I want to thank Dr. Amber Johnson, who was a communications professor at SLU. She's the one who introduced me to the concept of ethnography, which is a tool for combining real life reports and media and combine that with personal narrative to tell a story and make an argument about certain things. And so out of that narrative, control happened. And that's really a big part of why I wrote this book. Because I don't want another 10 years to go by and people, when they remember what happened here, only think burning buildings, looted business, the questionable child's behavior led to him being shot and killed. I don't want that to be the narrative.
- [26:45]
A
Yeah, for sure. That that narrative continues to run, even though of course, you wrote this book and you are delivering the real happenings on social media. I wanna pan out to the bigger picture here. Where do you locate Occupy SLU and the Ferguson Uprising in the long arc of the struggle for black freedom? Like what is the significance of the Ferguson uprising or of Ferguson writ large?
- [27:17]
B
I want to emphasize first that we made Black Lives Matter a household name. I would say that to the so called founders of the hashtag Patrissealicia Opal, there was actually a brother named Dr. Marcus who was credited with actually using the term Black Lives Matter prior to the sisters that founded the hashtag or founded the organization, the formal nonprofit. But we made Black Lives Matter a household name. How did we do that? That when Trayvon Martin was murdered. And that's really one of the earlier instances of police brutality that really sparked me because all these young people were being murdered were around my age at the time. We saw marches happening, we saw people standing up. But when Mike Brown was murdered, it was the militarized reaction of the state. The ways in which we were mistreated, mishandled out there in the streets and refused to bow down. People from all kinds of walks of Life. You had a C suite individuals. You had professors, academics, you had CEOs, EDs in the streets with working class folk who were either hustlers in the streets, amount of pedal drugs here and there might have allegedly been associated with certain groups. They were red, they were blue, they were whatever. All of them came together because they refused to bow down to the idea that a child could be murdered in broad daylight and his body be left in the street for four and a half hours in the scorching heat of St. Louis. And out of that, you had people who popularized the term Black Lives Matter to the point where you had celebrities like Beyonce, you had celebrities like Jay Z, you had so many celebrities come here and donate. But I do want to emphasize that we made Black Lives Matter a household name. Why is that important? Well, for the second thing is the Black Freedom Movement at large. I think what we've done is we've inspired so many other movements in and out of the United States to be and emphasize this idea of risk taking. Right. Not that people weren't in the streets before, not that uprisings didn't happen, But a lot of the actions, the creative, direct actions that we did here are being replicated throughout the nation in different ways. And we were inspired by Pride Movement. So I won't say it was original work, but it was definitely something that I think inspired a lot of young people to take creative risk in our own spaces and places. So those are two things immediately to come to mind when we talk about the larger product of the Black freedom struggle. We look at the uprisings that happened in enslavement, of course, the work prior to the fights against enslavement, Reconstruction, civil rights movement, Black power movement, Black arts movement, all these different things. I would say that definitely some highlights from what we wrestle with.
- [30:12]
A
Yeah, it continues to be a long road. So we all know, and you repeat this in the book, that activism is a marathon, not a sprint. How do you wrap your head around strategically on what to do? Like, what is a marathon activity as opposed to a sprint activity? The kind of thing that keeps the ball moving forward and prevents burn, for sure.
- [30:35]
B
So a sprint activity is. I'm trying to get this going as fast as possible. I'm trying to get to the finish line as fast as possible. But what you realize is that even despite my best efforts, all the work I was putting in, all the things I was doing, when I did all that for the outcome of getting a win, when the win didn't come, it created a huge sense of disappointment, a Huge sense of letdown. Right? And then. And how do you respond to that? With the same way you've been responding throughout the sprint, right? And you do it again, it just becomes a hamster wheel. So I want young people, when I talk about, like, marathon activities, take this stuff in process, right. You know, we don't need any martyrs. We got plenty of those. We don't need more people who are not able to finish school because the university wants to be, for lack of a better term, an asshole. Right. We don't want young people to give up and find comfort and solace in substances instead of you doing things like going to the gym, listening to music, journaling all those different things. We want them to be healthy because we need them. We need people who have that college degree to join this organization, start their group, continue to fight on many levels. And we can't have that if you burn out and you end up having to suffer because you didn't take care of yourself. And so that's really what I wanted to emphasize in the book when I was told the marathon, not a sprint advice at the time. I just didn't really fully understand it until I got older and I could really appreciate it more.
- [32:14]
A
Thank you. So in the current political climate, we need more resistance tools and we need more resistance fighters. So every week on Future Hindsight, I ask my guest to share a civic spark, one small step we can all take to be more empowered and ignite collective change. So what's one concrete step our listeners can take to turn the insights that you've just shared with us into action in their own communities?
- [32:43]
B
One piece of advice I would give to the audience about how to spark a small step you can use to spark change really, is by finding a young person in your life and ask them what they're wrestling with, really peek into them, and it may not be something that's political or social, cultural. It could just be something that's just going on with them in general. But check in on them and even ask or encourage them to talk about, you know, what their feelings are about what's happening in the nation, and figure out ways, based on that conversation, on how you can support them. Because that's how I came to be who I am today. I had the benefit of adults, trusting adults, caring adults who would ask little old me at the age of 9, 10, 11, 13, 12, what my thoughts were about the happenings around the nation at the time. And out of that sparked my own curiosity to deepen my own understanding and to ask more questions. And that ended up evolving into my journey and then ultimately this book.
- [33:53]
A
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Especially as we navigate this challenging political moment, looking into the future, what makes you hopeful?
- [34:04]
B
I would say first, as a matter of faith, you know, I put God above all, so I know that he has a larger plan, a larger scope, that at times when I don't see it, you know, faith helps me guide my way through. And when I'm feeling down, he gives me hope. Hope. You know, often we. We pay over our food. We thank God for the food, or whenever a blessing comes our way, we thank God for it. But the same God that is of love is the same God that flooded the earth with Noah's Ark. And God is not happy about what's happening right now. And because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Right. He died on that cross due to state sanctioned violence. Right. I know that there's something ahead despite all this death, dread and despair that we're encountering. So that's the main thing. And the. I know I'm not alone in this fight. Right. We have people like you, Mila, who have this platform, who encourage civic engagement around this question, around the democratic project. And I am inspired by people like yourself and peers. I know these young people around the nation who refuse to bow down to authoritarianism, anti intellectualism that is being popularized and made cool and in some of our nation's highest offices. So I'm inspired by those who are risk takers from the past, the present, and those that are coming as we do this work.
- [35:32]
A
Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, Jonathan, it was really a pleasure to have you on the show and good luck with everything that is still ahead of you.
- [35:42]
B
Thank you, Mila, for having me.
- [35:44]
A
Jonathan Polfus is the author of With My Life, justice and Activism beyond the University. Be sure to follow us on your podcast app so you'll never miss an episode. We're your resource for all the tools you need to stay engaged. So follow Future Hindsight now and we'll come right to you every week. And if you want to support Future Hindsight and all the work we do as an independent pro democracy podcast, join the the Civics Club on patreon. Head to patreon.com futurehinsight now to join. Thanks for tuning in. And until next time, see clearly, act boldly and spark the change you want to see. This episode was produced by Zach Travis and me. This podcast is part of the Democracy group.