Youth Power vs. The Climate Crisis: Aru Shiney-Ajay

Summary

Future Hindsight Podcast Summary
Episode Title: Youth Power vs. The Climate Crisis: Aru Shiney-Ajay
Release Date: April 10, 2025
Host: Mila Atmos
Guest: Aru Shaini Ajay, Executive Director of Sunrise Movement

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Introduction to the Climate Crisis and the Green New Deal

Mila Atmos opens the episode by highlighting the escalating climate crisis, referencing France's third National Climate Adaptation Plan and a pivotal study from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on microplastics pollution affecting global staple crops. Despite these alarming developments, Mila emphasizes that decarbonization remains elusive but expresses optimism through the discussion of actionable climate policies like the Green New Deal.

Key Quote:

"Stop the climate crisis is going to require huge transformations in many, many, many sectors of our society." – Aru Shaini Ajay [03:02]

Understanding the Green New Deal

Aru Shaini Ajay clarifies that the Green New Deal (GND) is not just an environmental blueprint but a comprehensive plan to harness federal power for societal transformation. The GND aims to create millions of jobs, improve public infrastructure, and ensure social equity alongside decarbonization efforts.

Key Points:

• Federal Leadership: The federal government must spearhead the fight against climate change.
• Societal Benefits: Initiatives like public transport, social centers, and affordable housing are integral to both decarbonization and societal well-being.
• Job Creation: A federal jobs guarantee within the GND framework would provide employment in renewable energy projects, environmental restoration, and education.

Key Quote:

"Stopping the climate crisis is going to require huge transformations in many, many, many sectors of our society... essential to building a thriving society." – Aru Shaini Ajay [03:02]

The Role of Youth and the Sunrise Movement

Aru emphasizes the unique position of youth in the climate movement, attributing their unwavering optimism and ambition as critical drivers for change. The Sunrise Movement, under Aru's leadership, mobilizes young activists to demand robust climate policies and holds politicians accountable through direct action.

Key Points:

• Unjaded Optimism: Young activists remain hopeful and proactive, unlike some jaded adult perspectives.
• People and Political Power: The movement leverages mass protests to influence political decision-making, translating public demands into legislative action.
• Historical Precedents: Aru draws parallels to past large-scale government efforts like the moon landing and World War II mobilizations.

Key Quote:

"We have a mass movement of young people that's able to take escalated action and push politicians to do what we want." – Aru Shaini Ajay [07:42]

Effective Activism and Legislative Success

Discussing specific actions, Aru highlights the Sunrise Movement's strategic sit-ins and protests, notably the successful sit-in at Nancy Pelosi's office in 2018. These actions were instrumental in the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act, the first significant climate bill in the U.S., despite its imperfections.

Key Points:

• Strategic Protests: Direct actions like sit-ins create public pressure that compels politicians to act.
• Legislative Impact: The Inflation Reduction Act, though criticized for concessions to the fossil fuel industry, represents a substantial victory facilitated by activist pressure.
• Ongoing Efforts: The movement seeks to build on this success by pushing for more comprehensive climate legislation.

Key Quote:

"The Inflation Reduction act is a reflection of the power that the climate movement did and didn't have in that moment... it's far from perfect." – Aru Shaini Ajay [09:30]

Narratives and Public Perception

Mila and Aru delve into the importance of storytelling in mobilizing support. Aru explains how framing climate action as a means to improve daily life—through better jobs, resilient infrastructure, and community well-being—helps garner broader public support. Additionally, combating misinformation, particularly from right-wing narratives that vilify clean energy, is crucial.

Key Points:

• Connecting Personally: Relating climate action to tangible improvements in people's lives makes the cause more relatable.
• Countering Misinformation: Actively addressing and debunking myths surrounding clean energy strengthens the movement's credibility.
• Sympathetic Messaging: Emphasizing that the movement doesn't blame fossil fuel workers or certain demographics fosters inclusive support.

Key Quote:

"Stopping climate change isn't just about giving things up, that it could actually be about building something better." – Aru Shaini Ajay [15:15]

Building Mass Movements and Sustained Activism

Addressing critics of civil resistance, Aru argues that visible activism often precedes increased support for the underlying demands. By maintaining empathy and focusing on systemic issues rather than individual blame, the Sunrise Movement effectively bridges activism with broad-based support.

Key Points:

• Visibility Breeds Support: Even if the tactics are initially unpopular, they can lead to greater acceptance of the movement's goals.
• Inclusive Approach: Avoiding blame on vulnerable groups and focusing on systemic change attracts a wider supporter base.
• Empowering Experiences: Creating emotional and community-driven experiences encourages sustained commitment among activists.

Key Quote:

"The act of seeing frequent climate protests means that people are saying, well, maybe they have a point." – Aru Shaini Ajay [16:43]

Electoral Politics and Future Strategies

Aru outlines Sunrise's dual approach to activism: direct action and electoral engagement. The movement not only protests but also endorses and supports candidates aligned with their vision for a sustainable and equitable future. In the context of political opposition, such as the Trump administration, Sunrise focuses on both combating harmful policies and promoting systemic change.

Key Points:

• Comprehensive Strategy: Combining street activism with political lobbying ensures both immediate and long-term impacts.
• Policy Continuity: Striving for a governing power that consistently enacts progressive climate policies, irrespective of the political party in power.
• Responding to Political Threats: Actively opposing policies and actions that undermine climate progress, such as reducing EPA regulations.

Key Quote:

"It's absolutely essential to us to get Trump out of office. I think the way that we're approaching it right now is that a lot of what he's doing is so unpopular..." – Aru Shaini Ajay [19:26]

Local and State-Level Victories

Highlighting successes beyond federal legislation, Aru mentions various state and local initiatives spearheaded by the Sunrise Movement. Programs like the Green New Deal for Schools and the Public Renewables Act demonstrate the movement's commitment to localized solutions that address community-specific needs while aligning with national climate goals.

Key Points:

• Green New Deal for Schools: Implementing climate education, green infrastructure, and healthy school environments.
• Public Renewables Act: Promoting publicly owned renewable energy sources to reduce reliance on fossil fuels.
• Polluter Pays Legislation: Holding corporations accountable for environmental damages and funding decarbonization efforts.

Key Quote:

"These have been some pretty exciting wins. And I think we will see a lot of leadership from states, from local governments..." – Aru Shaini Ajay [30:16]

Sustaining the Movement and Future Outlook

In discussing movement sustainability, Aru emphasizes the importance of creating meaningful experiences that foster community and hope. By ensuring that new members feel empowered and connected, Sunrise builds a resilient and growing activist base. Looking forward, Aru remains hopeful about the public's growing hunger for systemic change and the movement's ability to channel this energy into effective climate action.

Key Points:

• Empowerment and Community: Facilitating environments where activists feel supported and motivated to continue their efforts.
• Hope as Fuel: Maintaining a disciplined form of hope based on historical successes and the potential for a better future.
• Broad Engagement: Encouraging diverse forms of participation, from protests to contacting representatives, to sustain momentum.

Key Quote:

"The combination of community and hope really helps people say, okay, this is worth it. This is worth giving my time to." – Aru Shaini Ajay [38:08]

Civic Spark: Taking Action

Mila wraps up the episode with actionable steps for listeners:

1. Join a Movement: Aru encourages listeners to become part of Sunrise by signing up at smvmt.org/join.
2. Maintain Hope: Resist apathy by holding onto a disciplined form of hope and spreading it within communities.
3. Engage in Advocacy: Whether through protests, contacting legislators, or supporting climate-positive policies, every action contributes to the collective effort.

Closing Thoughts and Future Episodes

Mila expresses gratitude to Aru for the insightful conversation and previews the next episode featuring Aziz Rana, a professor of law at Boston College Law School. She encourages listeners to subscribe and support the podcast on Patreon to continue fostering civic engagement and action.

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Summary Highlights:

• Green New Deal as a comprehensive approach to climate and societal transformation.
• Youth Leadership through the Sunrise Movement driving policy and public opinion.
• Strategic Activism combining direct action with political engagement leading to legislative victories like the Inflation Reduction Act.
• Localized Successes demonstrating the movement's impact at state and community levels.
• Sustaining Momentum through empowerment, hope, and diverse engagement strategies.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Aru Shaini Ajay [03:02]: "Stopping the climate crisis is going to require huge transformations in many, many, many sectors of our society."
• Aru Shaini Ajay [07:42]: "We have a mass movement of young people that's able to take escalated action and push politicians to do what we want."
• Aru Shaini Ajay [09:30]: "The Inflation Reduction act is a reflection of the power that the climate movement did and didn't have in that moment."
• Aru Shaini Ajay [16:43]: "The act of seeing frequent climate protests means that people are saying, well, maybe they have a point."
• Aru Shaini Ajay [19:26]: "It's absolutely essential to us to get Trump out of office..."
• Aru Shaini Ajay [30:16]: "These have been some pretty exciting wins. And I think we will see a lot of leadership from states, from local governments..."
• Aru Shaini Ajay [38:08]: "The combination of community and hope really helps people say, okay, this is worth it."

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Action Steps:

• Join Sunrise Movement: Visit smvmt.org/join to become part of the climate movement.
• Spread Hope: Share the podcast episode and inspire others to take small, meaningful actions against climate change.
• Stay Informed and Engaged: Follow Future Hindsight for more actionable insights on civic engagement and democratic participation.

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This summary encapsulates the essential discussions and insights shared by Aru Shaini Ajay on the Future Hindsight podcast, providing a comprehensive overview for those unable to listen to the full episode.

Transcript

[Mila Atmos]

Thanks to Shopify for supporting Future Hindsight. Shopify is a platform designed for anyone to sell anywhere, giving entrepreneurs like myself the resources once reserved for big business. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com hopeful all lowercase and if you want to support Future Hindsight and all the work that we do as an independent pro democracy podcast, please join us at the Civics Club on patreon. Go to patreon.com futurehiinsight now. Welcome to Future Hindsight, a podcast on a mission to spark civic action. I'm your host, Mila Atmos. I'm a global citizen based in New York City, and I'm deeply curious about the way our society works. So each week I bring you conversations to cut through the confusion around today's most important civic issues and share clear, actionable ways for us to build a brighter future together. After all, democracy is not a spectator sport. Tomorrow starts right now. It's no secret that the climate crisis is real and here to stay. In fact, there continues to be mounting evidence that things are getting worse. The French government just unveiled its long awaited third National Climate Adaptation Plan, which aims to prepare the country for temperature rises that could reach 4 degrees Celsius by the end of the century. In addition, a new study was just published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that found microplastics pollution is hindering plant photosynthesis. As a result, the researchers estimate that between 4 and 14% of the world's staple crops are being lost, which could increase the number of people at risk of starvation in the next two decades. And yet we are not closer to decarbonization. Still, all is not lost. And today we're talking about climate action policy with real possibility. The Green New Deal. What is it anyway? And why is it good for us, the humans living on planet Earth? To help us understand this transformative vision, I'm joined by Aru Shaini Ajay, the Executive director of Sunrise Movement, a movement of young people to stop climate change and create millions of good jobs in the process. Sunrise has been at the forefront of climate activism and pushing for a Green New Deal across America. Welcome Aru. Thank you for joining us.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Thank you, Mila. Thank you so much for having me.

[Mila Atmos]

So, as I stated, your goal is to bring the Green New Deal to every corner of America. I think when people hear Green New Deal, a range of different definitions comes to mind, depending on who you are. So what are the core principles that make up a true Green New Deal? And how might this differ from what we hear in the mainstream media, yeah.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

At its core, the Green New Deal is the idea that the federal government needs to drive the effort to stop the climate crisis. And in doing so, it can make our lives better. That stopping the climate crisis is going to require huge transformations in many, many, many sectors of our society. And those improvements can actually just make us happier, like having public transport to get around every day, having cities that are built around social centers, and having public housing so people aren't worried about their rent every month. These things are both essential to decarbonization, and they're also essential to building a thriving society that can carry through the climate transition.

[Mila Atmos]

Oh, I love it. So can you give us a little bit more details of what this would look like? What is this transformative vision for a future? Because I think for a lot of people, that just sounds like it's in the cloud. You know, it's just a dream that's never going to come true.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Yeah, well, one of the core policy tenets of the Green New Deal, one of my favorites, is calling for a federal jobs guarantee. So what that would be is actually creating millions of jobs for every American to get to work stopping the climate crisis. And those jobs could look like putting in windmills, putting in solar panels, actually repairing our environment from the toxins that have leached into it from fossil fuels. But it could also look like teaching and actually teaching about environmental education. There's so much work that is going to need to go into this transition. I think it's hard for a lot of people to envision. There's so much preparation we need to do for increasing temperatures, for increasing storms, and that effort can actually provide stability to a lot of people, can make our lives brighter and better. So I would say there are a lot of ways in which climate change interacts in our everyday life. And the Green New Deal is about actually using the full power of the federal government to transform our society, going sector by sector, creating millions of jobs and allowing us to work together to stop the greatest crisis that our world has ever faced.

[Mila Atmos]

Thank you for explaining that so well, because I think a lot of people don't understand that the Green New Deal is about compelling the federal government to take and to use its full power in policymaking to make this transition possible.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

And. Right. And we've done it before.

[Mila Atmos]

Right.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Like, we've done it for the moonshot. We put a huge effort during World War II. We've done it during the New Deal. This isn't something that's new to American history. It's just time to apply it to stopping the climate crisis.

[Mila Atmos]

Yeah. It's actually also shockingly affordable, as it turns out. I think when you look at some of the numbers, I was like, wait, you could totally do this over 10 years, but there is no political will. Even so, you know, I know that you talk about electoral politics and you endorse candidates, but I want to know, how does the Sunrise movement fit in to compelling the government to take action? We know, of course, that you are a movement of young people, but who are your members? Tell me why it's so important for a movement like this to be a youth movement.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

I think one of the most powerful thing about organizing with other young people is that we're not yet jaded about what could be. I found a lot of adults say things like, well, that'll never happen. And the truth is there is one immutable timeline right now, and that is the fact that the climate crisis is increasing every day, that we continue to burn more fossil fuels. And there's another thing that's actually entirely within human control, which is the state and nature of our politics. So, yes, I believe that young people have an ambition that is hard to match, and that's a lot of why we are able to see the problems that are happening in the world and actually react, Demand things at the scale of the problems that we see.

[Mila Atmos]

Mm. Yeah. Thank you for explaining it that way, for sure. I am a, quote, adult, and I am very jaded about things. Although I did it.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

It's a hard world, you know, it's really hard.

[Mila Atmos]

Yeah. You know what? I feel like the idealism of youth just gets beaten out of you, you know, as you get older. And you have, I don't know, rent, mortgage, car payments, children. You know, you have. I don't want to say that you have less time, but you have less room somehow, less bandwidth for the imagination and then to take action. That sounds really dated and cynical, but I think that's the reality of life, that you're like, oh, now I just need to wash the dishes, like, do the mundane everyday stuff. So let's talk about your activism. What's your theory of change at Sunrise, and what makes your approach different from traditional environmental advocacy?

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Yeah, at our core, we talk about two parts of our theory of change. We talk about people power and political power. And we believe that it's really key to stopping climate crisis, that we have a mass movement of young people that's able to take escalated action and push politicians to do what we want. And that Push politicians is crucial because it's not just about being in the streets, but it's also about translating those demands that we have in the streets into the political process and being able to pull real political wins out of those. I think that's something that we did really, really well in the last few years. During the 2019 climate strikes, we were leading a lot of the protests. We were doing a lot of actions. We were, you know, sunrise volunteers were sitting in members of Congress's office and visiting them and taking over state houses and we were also making sure that we were talking to those members of Congress. So that a year later, two years later, when we were in the middle of a huge fight around trying to pass a climate bill, we were able to translate that huge number of protests that we had to shifting politicians to getting senators to say that if climate wasn't going to be in this bill, they weren't going to vote on it. And we ended up winning the first ever climate bill, the Inflation Reduction act, our first ever climate bill in the United States, which was a huge down payment on our clean energy industry.

[Mila Atmos]

Yeah. Let's talk about some of your sit ins. Famously, 250 Sunrise Movement activists, including yourself, staged a sit in at Nancy Pelosi's office in November of 2018 after the midterms. What were your takeaways at the time as a movement? And I know that we had the Inflation Reduction act passed, but did you think about it as being successful? I mean, I know that you were really happy, but so many people are unhappy with the Inflation Reduction Act. So how, how do you think about the action and the success of your actions?

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

What I always say is that the Inflation Reduction act is a reflection of the power that the climate movement did and didn't have in that moment. Which is to say that it's far from perfect and it includes a whole lot of handouts to the fossil fuel industry that I wish weren't there. But the fact that it happened in the first place is a huge win. One of my pet peeves is that it's often referred to as Joe Manchin's climate bill. That's how the media was reporting on it at the time. And I was like, that is not actually true. This is our climate mill. Joe Manchin wouldn't be signing any climate bill if it weren't for organizers and activism. So I think the critiques of it are so fair and I share a lot of them on a policy level, but I think on a storytelling level, there's a real tendency we have in society to. To underplay the role of social movements in getting the wins that we get. I don't think the Inflation Reduction act would have happened without the climate strikes, without sit ins, without direct action, without that Nancy Pelosi sit in, in fact. So I do consider the organizing successful. I think the next question for us is, okay, well, we won the first bill, but like you said, we are not on track to decarbonize our society, not by any means. So what does it mean for us to build the next level of power that allows us to get something that's even better than this bill? So that's how I think about it. It's certainly not a one and done. We achieved all our goals. Time to pack up and go home. But I think underplaying our role and winning, it does a disservice to all the organizing that happened.

[Mila Atmos]

Oh, yeah, totally. I agree. So did you talk to Nancy Pelosi during the sit in before? I mean, during the sit in or after the sit in? Did she give you an audience?

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Not then, no. I think, yeah, she was absent during the sit in, but certainly after, you know, not in the months after, but in the years after. We were able to make a lot of political inroads with Nancy Pelosi, but also Chuck Schumer, I think, ended up being a big eventual ally of ours in the push for a big climate deal, which is something that would not have happened without sit ins in his office, without protests outside of his office. So I think there's a real correlation there of the way that public pressure actually can shift politicians when it's at the scale that we need.

[Mila Atmos]

Hmm. Well, you're talking about building mass movements and you're talking about storytelling, changing the narrative. You know, the storytelling wins as opposed to the statistical wins, let's say. What are the stories that get people actually off the sidelines and into movement, into taking action? Because I think, you know, so much of what we're seeing is inaction because they just can't put things together so that the people who have lost their houses in North Carolina or in Florida and somebody who's sitting in an apartment in a city that is untouched, it's sort of like, well, the climate crisis is not here yet.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

I think it's a huge challenge in our media and in our politicians that people are afraid to name the climate crisis as the cause of disasters. Part of our work, we make sure that after disasters, whenever we have a hub in the area, we do a lot of talking to the people who are affected. So I was in LA a few months ago right after the fires in January and people were really ready to be politicized around the climate crisis and the role of the climate crisis in causing the fires. But they didn't immediately have it as a narrative. So what I found was that that latent potential was really there. And it was actually a case of saying like, fossil fuel companies are causing this fire by making temperatures hotter so things catch on fire more easily. Like that's the simplest explanation. There's a lot more to it than that, obviously. But you know, when you're just explaining it on the doors, people are really receptive to that.

[Mila Atmos]

So you're knocking on doors after the fires.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

So yeah, we did a wide variety of things including knocking on doors after the fires.

[Mila Atmos]

Yeah. So what's a common story you heard at the doors in la?

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

The main thing that we did in LA is that Sunrise volunteers in LA hosted a sit in outside of a fossil fuel company and multi day sit in. And we had a lot of people stop by and people were really relieved that somebody felt like they were doing something. That's really something that we felt people wanted to take action, people were angry and were ready to fight back. And I was sort of blown away, honestly by the amount of support that we saw in a pretty short period of time. People just coming out, bringing us food. And those were a lot of people who maybe already knew a little bit about the role of climate in causing these fires, but were looking for a way to take serious action. We even saw some political support. People talking a little bit more about the role of climate change managed to get some media coverage as well. So to me, there is a role that direct action specifically can play in driving forward the narrative. And by driving forward the narrative, actually helping people be like, this is the way that climate is connected to my everyday life. And that's more on the disaster front. I think to your original question, what stories motivate people? I think the other side of what motivates people is telling people about the better life that could be possible. Like you said, life can be like so bleak and busy in this moment. You know, you're worrying about your bills, you're worrying about whether you can get a job, you're worrying about your parents, like everything all the time. And telling people that actually the federal government could tackle climate change in a way that makes your life better. And you could know there was always a job available with the federal government where you were doing good things for the world. You didn't have to break your back every day trying to meet the bills. That is appealing to people and that makes people say, hey, that's a vision that I want to support, that stopping climate change isn't just about giving things up, that it could actually be about building something better.

[Mila Atmos]

Right? Yeah, I think that's a common perception, that if we embrace clean energy that we will have, I don't know, brownouts or that our cars won't work or the lights won't go on. But of course that's not the case. And people are like, oh, you know what? The sun doesn't shine all night long. And it's like, okay, well that's not the only technology out there for clean energy.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

And that's been a very deliberate right wing narrative. They've taken every effort to make sure that when our power grid goes out during disasters, they blame clean energy. Even though the truth is that if we retrofit our power grid and invest in it, that would make it more resilient through all these disasters. So it's a strategy of theirs to stop the growth of clean energy.

[Mila Atmos]

Yeah, they're very good at that. They're very good at spinning that narrative. Right. Like it's really. Yeah, it's really difficult to break through. So, you know, we're talking about civil resistance and being disruptive, doing sit ins. And you just mentioned that actually you were surprised how popular it was that people were heartened by your actions. So that's great. But I think there is still a lot of resistance to these kinds of tactics. And so what's your response to critics who question these tactics? Because you still need broad support. At the end of the day, if you want to build a mass movement, you need popular support while also engaging in disruption. How do you thread that needle?

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Yeah, it's something that we think about a lot. There's two things I'd say. One is that historically it is often true that people don't support the tactics of civil resistance, but the act of seeing the tactic makes them support the demand. And that was true even in the civil rights movement. People were like, well, I disagree with what they're doing. Maybe they shouldn't be sitting in, Maybe they shouldn't be like, you know, occupying. But I agree with the idea of what they're getting behind. And I think a lot of the times people who are critics don't realize that that's what's going on in their brain. But the act of just seeing frequent climate protests means that people are saying, well, maybe they have a point, even if I find them personally, you know, annoying or distasteful or whatever it is. And I'm okay with that. Like, I don't think like all 330 million Americans need to join the Sunrise movement. I think out of those, if you convince a lot of people that we have a point and say several hundred thousand or several million are the ones joining movements, that's totally fine. I think that's actually a huge way that change gets made, is that a group of people is able to bring awareness to the bigger population. The other thing I'd say is that we do think a lot about how to make our actions seem as sympathetic to the public as possible. We think a lot about how to make sure that we're talking about ourselves as young people, as people who are directly hurt by the impacts of the crisis. We always say that we don't blame fossil fuel workers, we don't blame maga. We always talk about the people who are at the top of these companies who are driving a lot of the disinformation and the strategies to keep the rest of us dependent on fossil fuels. So we really try and put a good effort forward to bring the maximum number of people into the movement possible at all times.

[Mila Atmos]

Yeah, that's really important. Also, I like that you made the distinction between the action and the demands and how the actions in public, even if they might be upsetting to some people, the demands are what people are going to rally around or should. In any case, we should all be for climate action in this time. I mean, if we don't, I don't know what's going to happen. There are many ways.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

There's many ways to engage. You know, like maybe somebody sees us doing a sit in and they're like, I would never do a sit in, but it makes them want to call their congressperson or walk out to a rally, you know, and that's okay. Like, people take action at different levels, Right?

[Mila Atmos]

Totally agree. So we mentioned electoral politics, and for sure this plays a part in your overall activism at Sunrise. I know you endorse candidates. How do you decide which candidates to support? What's the role of electoral politics in achieving your goals? And now that Trump is in office, is this strategy evolving?

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Yeah, I mean, we talk a lot at Sunrise about winning governing power, which I don't just mean winning a narrow trifecta where we can squeeze through one bill. I think if we're truly going to stop the climate crisis, we need to win the type of governing power that allows us to pass Bill after bill after bill, year after year after year, whatever party is in power. And I think that takes a fundamental changing of the common sense. It's been done before. You know, you look at the past and you see presidents like Nixon creating the epa, or, I believe, Eisenhower talking about how it would be unthinkable to defund Social Security and Medicare. Like, there were times when Republican presidents really actually believed in the social safety net. Similarly, you fast forward 30, 40 years and you have Bill Clinton talking about deregulation. There were times when Democrats really believed in, like, handing things over to big business. So what we're trying to do is shift the political common sense so that we can have many decades of governing. What that means is that we usually endorse people who we think will actually be able to carry forward that vision and be a spokesperson for that vision and be able to bring us into a new governing era. But we do electoral work. You know, in the presidential race, both in 2024 and in 2020, we knock doors for Harris and for Biden, not because we endorsed either of them, but because the alternative, Trump, is obviously so much worse that we want to do everything possible to stop him from being in power. That's how we approach our electoral work. We endorse when we see a leap forward in politics, but we get out there when we think there's a big risk posed. And when it comes to Trump, there's no way to say it other than he's been absolutely disastrous already in two months for climate progress. I probably don't need to list all of what he's done, but he's been defunding Noah. He's declared an energy emergency to be able to accelerate drilling on public lands and drilling in general. One of the most dangerous and underreported things that he's doing is that he is pushing the EPA to revise the finding that greenhouse gases are actually detrimental to people's health, which means we couldn't use the Clean Air act to regulate greenhouse gases, which would be really, really dangerous. And all this maybe sounds a little bit wonky, but like you said, it has huge effects. The implication is basically that we're going to hit really high degrees of warming. So it's absolutely essential to us to get Trump out of office. I think the way that we're approaching it right now is that a lot of what he's doing is so unpopular, and climate and the environment is actually one of his most unpopular issues. And so there's a real role for the climate movement in getting him out of office and in actually creating a backlash to his policies in a way that can usher in a new era of government.

[Mila Atmos]

We'll be right back with Aru Shiny Ajay. So don't go anywhere. I promise you'll love this episode's Civic Spark. It's one small step we can all take to be more empowered and ignite collective change. But first, Heinz, Momofuku, Mattel. These are some of the most successful and recognizable businesses out there. Those kinds of brands with sales going through the roof. What do you think when you hear those names? I know you probably think about a great product, right? And also a cool brand with brilliant marketing. Am I on the right track? But here's the thing. There's an often overlooked secret about successful businesses. And it's actually the businesses behind the business. Because, well, you just can't do it alone. For millions of businesses, that business behind them is Shopify. Let me tell you why. Nobody does selling better than Shopify. Shopify is home to the number one checkout on the planet with a not so secret, secret shop pay that boosts conversions up to 50%. Yes, you heard that right. 50%, that's 5, 0. So that means fewer carts going abandoned and way more sales going cha ching. So let's say you're into growing your business. Your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. And that's why businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Here's the best part. This is why I love Shopify. No matter how big you want to grow, Shopify gives you everything you need to take control and take your business to the next level point blank. So upgrade your business and get the same checkout Heinz uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com hopeful all lowercase go to shopify.com hopeful to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com hopefully. And now let's return to my conversation with Aru Shaini Ajay. So tell us about the kind of work that you're doing to create the backlash. Because I think one of the things, well, not I think I know that one of the things that people on the left are complaining about is that Democrats don't appear to be pushing back. So how are you doing this?

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Yeah, we were organizing right after Trump got inaugurated. We had a call for Teach Ins where they're called how to End an Oligarchy Teach ins. We had something like 196 people sign up almost immediately, and it grew over time. We've been having the teach ins all over the country. We keep getting surprised at how many people showed up. We had a call last night, There were so many people that we host an online version where I think, like, 2,500 people signed up with almost no recruitment. So people are really hungry for some answers about what it actually means to fight Trump.

[Mila Atmos]

And.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

And the first thing that we're actually doing is training people on how to think about this moment and how to actually organize. And the reason that we're starting with training is I think there's been a lot of observations of, like, why aren't as many people in the streets as last time? And what I've seen on the ground is a lot of people are, like, skeptical of what being in the streets alone can do, but very hungry for strategies to actually fight things. And so we found that leading with trainings has really been one way that we're able to give people the skills to then go out and protest, to do direct actions, to do all of those things. And also we are preparing for direct actions on Trump's worst things. For example, we were talking a little bit about what to do if the Department of Education got shut down. That was one big issue. We're always in conversations about the types of rapid response that we need to be ready to jump into. We are now doing a round of visiting Republican congresspeople and Democratic congresspeople and pushing them to actually protect climate, healthcare, jobs in the reconciliation bill that's up. So we're doing the protesting as well, but we're really seeing this as a moment to build a mass movement.

[Mila Atmos]

Well, just for the record, I did attend the teach in for.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Oh, you did?

[Mila Atmos]

I did. I attended the teach in People vs Billionaires. I thought it was really good. It was really informative for me personally to attend one of these things because I have never attended a teach in for this. And it was really interesting because I was in a. There was like, a breakout group, and I was in a breakout with other people who I think are all my age. And I was like, wait, how come there are no young people in my breakout group? And then at the end, somebody was like, oh, is this only for young people? And then the response is like, well, no, it's not only for young people. We need everybody. But if you're looking for, like, another group that's for adults, you should check out Indivisible, which I thought was really, really funny. But. But one of the things that needs to be connected also is that, you know, you did this teach in on on how to end an oligarchy. But I think the relationship between concentrated wealth and our inability to address the climate crisis is not actually obvious. So how does this focus on economic inequality connect to your climate justice work?

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Yeah, at the heart of it, I would say one of the biggest reasons that we haven't seen major climate progress in the last several decades is the amount of control and influence that fossil fuel companies have over our politics. And that is about oligarchy and rich people amassing wealth. It's also about corporations themselves having an outsized role in politics. You might know some of this, but Exxon and other companies led a very coordinated campaign to deny the existence of climate change for many, many, many years, even though they had research saying that it existed. When the evidence became too strong to ignore, they then led a campaign to shift responsibility onto consumers. A fact that not everyone knows is that British Petroleum was the one who invented the concept of a carbon footprint to basically get people to blame themselves for their own carbon use instead of thinking about the systemic aspect of it. And there have been many, many other examples of that. They have led disinformation. They funded anti climate candidates. There was this thing in 20, I want to say 2011, funded by the Koch brothers, called the no Climate Tax pledge, where they basically got hundreds of politicians to sign a pledge saying they would never vote for any legislation that used federal money to stop climate change, which is obviously a huge barrier. And that was purely done by paying them money and lobbying them. People often talk about not stopping climate change of like, oh, maybe people just don't care enough. And I actually think that everyday people care a lot. But it's hard when you have some of the most powerful industries in the history of the world up against you and trying to stop progress because they care about their bottom line.

[Mila Atmos]

Well, I think one of the other things also is that if there are climate policy successes, those are not easy to see. The Inflation Reduction Act, I think a lot of people don't understand that a big part of that Inflation Reduction act is climate policy. So tell us about some of the successes you've achieved on a local, state, and of course, federal level. What are some of the victories that might have flown under the radar but represent important progress? And what have you learned from those wins?

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Yeah, I mean, I can start a little bit with the inflation reduction. Like you said, it is a mixed bag in many ways. But I think what it does really well is that it really turbocharged the clean energy industry in a way that allows us to subsidize wind and solar energy and allow it to become cheaper than fossil fuels. So that now, when people like Trump are in office, there is still an incentive for people to switch to renewable energy. And I don't think that would have happened without the huge investment and incentivization over the last two years to build out clean energy projects. So I think that's really huge. Like, if we have a glimmer of hope at decarbonization right now, it is because of the winds that we had, because of the activism that we had. And I think that's really, really important to understand. And in fact, it was designed in such a way that Recently, I think 21 House Republicans in early March were asking Trump not to make cuts to the Inflation Reduction act portions of the tax credits, building out clean energy, which I thought was really, really a promising sign about the way that we designed the legislation. So that's one. But there have also been dozens of state and local victories that our movement has fought for. We have one program called the Green New Deal for Schools, where we've had school districts around the country pass resolutions setting them up for decarbonization, for climate education, for green school buses. One component of that is having, like, free and healthy lunches in schools. So that was really exciting to see those pass. I think we had, like, six resolutions pass around the country, and there's now a statewide piece of legislation in Colorado going through about that. The New York Public Renewables act was a really promising. That was a big one piece. Yeah, yeah, that was huge. Where we're actually able to build publicly owned energy. I think sometimes I think about the fact that wind and solar, unlike fossil fuels, are free resources. And it's incredible as an idea to say that, hey, what if you didn't have to pay as high energy bills all the time because we are getting our energy from an infinite and free natural resource? That's really exciting. And I think the Public Renewables act kind of spoke to that idea a little bit as well. One campaign that we're planning on going on, on the next couple months is the idea of making polluters actually pay for the cost that they have inflicted on the rest of us. And Vermont, New York have led the way on that by actually passing polluter pays legislation that requires polluters to pay a certain amount that then goes towards decarbonization and towards prepping for disasters. So those have been some pretty exciting wins. And I think we will See a lot of leadership from states, from local governments, especially if the movement actually responds and pushes for that.

[Mila Atmos]

Yeah. Well, what you just laid out is a good illustration of how if you can pass bill after bill after bill, they interlock together and make this new network of what's possible. You mentioned that sun and wind are free. And I think people don't realize not only is it free, but what is the actual cost of extracting fossil fuels. You know, you have to dig a hole in the ocean or on land and the infrastructure that's required to do that and then to suck it out and then to put it on ships. Most of the time, what a lot of people don't realize is that a lot of the traffic on the oceans are basically oil tankers that just ship oil from country to country and they burn oil on the way there and they carry oil. And I think, like, I don't know, I think people don't think about the logistics of what it is to have this oil infrastructure.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Absolutely. I mean, it's, it's really. Honestly, when you think about it, it's a really silly use of resources. I'm like, why are we doing that when we could be thinking about our society in so much more expansive way? And it's interesting, looking at some of the polling around this, you find that more people than you expect actually support renewable energy. I saw this poll a few days ago that said that 62% of Trump voters actually support regulating pollution that causes climate change, which was a shockingly high number to me. But I think there's real potential there. I think it's one of those latent issues that neither party have really figured out how to tap into and run on. But if the Democratic Party gets to act together and does figure out how, how to run on that, I think there's a huge passive base of people waiting to be activated.

[Mila Atmos]

Yeah, I agree. Well, actually, you know, one of the things you mentioned earlier is that there were some Republican members of Congress who wanted to make sure that parts of the Inflation Reduction act were not reduced because some of their constituents are renewable energy companies. And I think we've been waiting for a long time for the renewable energy companies. They have their own big lobby in the way that the fossil fuels do. And maybe one day soon that, you know, they will be a real counterweight and make us finally transition to decarbonize.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

And I think one key part of that is, as we make that transition, making sure that jobs at renewable energy companies are good paying jobs, are appealing jobs, because one of the narratives that the right has really run with is the idea that switching to renewables will cause a loss in jobs. And because of renewable energy, industry is currently less unionized because that sometimes holds weight with a lot of blue collar workers who are like, I don't want to work for way less money and way less benefits, which totally makes sense. So I think that's going to be a key part of that transition as well, for sure.

[Mila Atmos]

So one of the campaigns you have is the Green New Deal for Communities. How are you tailoring the broad vision of the Green New Deal to address specific community needs and concerns?

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Yeah, well, it depends a lot place to place, as you might imagine. And a lot of the time it actually comes from knocking doors and seeing what some of the most important issues in people's neighborhoods and cities are and constructing a Green New Deal based on that. So several of our hubs run Green New Deals around housing. Calling for green, affordable, publicly owned housing is one component of that. That's one huge issue in America and is a huge part of what decarbonization will require is actually just retrofitting our homes and making sure that people have access to safe homes to live in when climate disasters hit. Our Philadelphia hub had a campaign that was about green spaces, rec centers and libraries. And I thought that was a really interesting way to say, hey, what if we actually like, built a social fabric where people spend their time talking to each other instead of just, you know, driving from place to place all the time. And people live happier lives when they're just hanging out with each other. And it was about making people's lives, lives brighter and better. You know, the climate crisis really touches every aspect of our life. And a Green Deal for Communities is really about the idea. Well, let's take some issues that people care about in your area and build a Green New Deal about them because it connects to almost every issue. Green New Deal for Transit is another one that a lot of our hubs read. So there's a lot of different aspects that people can pick, right?

[Mila Atmos]

Well, when I was signing up for the teach in, I have to say I was very impressed with the call to action Pop up to first invite other friends to attend number two. Then the pop up changed, inviting me to attend other meetings. And then the pop up changed one more time and invited me to make a donation. I thought it was really creative. I had not seen this before. And so tell us more about your approach to building power. How do you think about converting initial interest into sustained commitment? And how do you Measure your movement's growth and impact.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Yeah, we think a lot about this. We really want people to have an experience where they walk in the door with Sunrise and they go through something that makes them want to stick around. I think at our heart, people might join a movement because they want to make a difference, but they stick around when they go through an emotional experience that makes them actually feel like they are empowered, that they have community, that we can win together. So we try and make sure that in our introductory meetings, we have people have some time to talk to each other. We talk a lot about a practice of storytelling and where we tell each other stories so people actually have a time to connect. And we make sure to constantly be repeating our theory of change and our plan to win. And grounding in the history of the fact that social movements actually have defeated authoritarians, have toppled colonial regimes that actually people power is incredibly powerful. And I think that's a lot of what makes people stick around. That combination of community and hope really helps people say, okay, this is worth it. This is worth giving my time to.

[Mila Atmos]

Well, one thing that really struck me last night in the teach in was it presented five examples of people power and that there were three takeaways from my group. One was that it was student movements, labor movements, and that it had to be decentralized. And that a variety of movements that are agitating, maybe not necessarily in close coordination, but that, you know, not everybody's protesting on the same day. So you can have a sustained protest of sorts through time and sustained pressure on elected officials and changing narrative and popular perception about the issue. And I thought, oh, this is really interesting because not a lot of people talk about it in this way. You know, a lot of people like, ah, these pesky young people protesting again. Don't they know, you know, we have to pay our mortgage and life continues? But I was like, oh, wow, this is really interesting. It actually really works. And it was really clever in a way that I, you know, I had not thought about. It was really good. I mean, I really commend it.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah, I mean, I left college to organize with Sunrise full time. And I remember at first, first a lot of people were like, oh, you're giving up on your education? And I found that I learned so much that you don't get taught in schools about the history of social movements. It's very interesting stuff. And you learn a lot about lessons to apply in our current context, including, yeah, a lot of the lessons that you named were some of our key takeaways as well. Looking at those examples, yeah, really, really powerful.

[Mila Atmos]

So every week on Future Hindsight, I ask my guest to share a civic spark. One small step we can all take to be more empowered and ignite collective change. So what's a good way to turn the insights that you've shared with us into action?

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Well, I always tell people the first step is to come join Sunrise. I have to. I have to plug that. Our join link is smvmt.org join just j o I n. So that's the first thing I'll say is come sign up with us, come join a hub. Come join one of our online volunteer teams if you want. That's really important. I think the second thing I'd say is that it's really easy to slide into apathy right now or giving up. And it's really important for people to hold on to a sort of disciplined form of hope. I think that can be grounded a lot in history. Like, we actually have defeated as people, as everyday people, we have defeated moments that are this bad before. Hold onto that vision of a better future. Hold on to that hope that you have for it and tell people about it, that no one will act if they feel frozen in despair. And spreading that hope is actually a really important thing that everyone can do.

[Mila Atmos]

Yeah. Thank you. So looking into the future, what makes you hopeful?

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

I think what makes me hopeful is seeing the enormous amount of hunger that people have for enormous systemic change. The most hopeful way to look at Trump's election is that people understand that our system isn't working. And they voted for him because he was the only one who was saying that the system wasn't working. And that feeling that the system wasn't working is really true. I've heard groups like the United Auto Workers call for, like, a mass strike for unions to line their contracts in 2028. Sunrise has aligned ourselves with that. I think people are really ready for some big change that actually makes the system work for them. And I find that hopeful. I find that hopeful every time I talk to people, to see their hunger and their passion and their clarity that we deserve something better in our lives.

[Mila Atmos]

Yeah. Hear, hear. And I agree that the hopeful take on the Trump election is that people recognized that things were really not working and then we needed dramatic change and that, you know, more of the same was not going to get us there. Although, I mean, right now it feels, you know, it feels very depressing.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

You know, Pete took advantage of that feeling and he directed at all the wrong people at immigrants, at trans people, at people of color. But that underlying desire for change is something that I think we can tap into and give people a better version, a kinder version of the future, for sure.

[Mila Atmos]

I totally agree. Well, thank you, Aru. Thank you so much for joining us on Future Hindsight. It was really a pleasure to have you on the show.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to talk to you, Aru.

[Mila Atmos]

Shaini Ajay is the executive director of Sunrise Movement, a movement of young people to stop climate change and create millions of good jobs in the process. Remember, civic action doesn't have to be complicated. It's about small steps that spark progress, like sharing this episode with a friend. Let's recap this week's Civic Spark and fire up our collective power. First, join a movement and maybe sign up for Sunrise if you feel empowered by this episode. And then remember not to slide into apathy. We always end on a hopeful question on Future Hindsight. And there's a reason nobody can truly act. When you're frozen with despair, have hope and use it as fuel. Next week on Future Hindsight, we're joined by Aziz Rana. He's professor of law at Boston College Law School, where his research and teaching center on American constitutional law and political development, such as how shifting notions of race, citizenship, and empire have shaped legal and political identity since America's founding. The idea of democracy, in my view, is a society organized around the principle of equal and effective freedom for all. That's next week on Future Hindsight. In case you haven't yet, make sure to follow us on your podcast app. The button is right there. Let's do it together. One, two, three. Click. There you go. Now you'll never miss a week of Future Hindsight. We'll stay in your rotation every week. Easy peasy. And if you really want to go the extra mile, consider supporting Future Hindsight on Patreon. We are an independent show, so join the Civics club [e-mail] futurehinsight. Thanks for tuning in. And until next time, see clearly, act boldly, and spark the change you want to see. This episode was produced by Zach Travis and me.

[Aru Shaini Ajay]

This podcast is part of the Democracy group.