Future of Life Institute Podcast

Episode Summary: “Can Machines Be Truly Creative?” with Maya Ackerman

Date: October 24, 2025
Guests: Maya Ackerman (computer science professor & founder, Wave AI)
Host: FLI Podcast Host

Episode Overview

This episode explores the concept of creativity—what it means for humans, animals, evolution, and, crucially, machines. Dr. Maya Ackerman shares her expertise in AI and computational creativity, offering a nuanced and sometimes provocative perspective on whether machines can be truly creative, how we measure creativity, and the societal implications of AI’s expansion into creative domains. Together, the host and Maya discuss the pitfalls of anthropocentrism, the future of human-AI collaboration, the tension between creativity and alignment, and the “humble creative machine.” Throughout, Maya urges a reconsideration of humanity’s self-image and calls for both optimism and caution as AI technologies deepen their integration with society.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining Creativity: Novelty and Value

• Maya Ackerman’s Definition:
  Creativity is a product or action that is both novel and valuable in its context.
  • “Creativity… if it’s novel and valuable for its context.” (03:33)
• Novelty Matters:
  Slight modifications aren’t truly creative; significant novelty is necessary for genuine creativity.
  • “A copy of Monet’s art… we typically wouldn’t consider them as creative.” (02:21)
• Value is Contextual:
  Value depends on the domain (a song should sound good; a meal should taste good).

2. Process vs. Product—Can Machines Be Creative?

• The definition is “agnostic to your process”—the output is what matters.
  • “If a machine is able to reliably produce things that are novel and valuable… it has creative capabilities.” (03:10)
• Maya criticizes the view that links creativity inseparably to consciousness or emotion.
• Evolution as Creative Process:
  Evolution, though mindless, creates extraordinary novelty and complexity.
  • “Evolution itself… is unambiguously creative, incredibly creative. Way more creative, I’m sorry, than anything that humans have ever made.” (04:12)

3. Anthropocentrism and Its Pitfalls

• Human tendency to center definitions around ourselves is misleading.
  • “This whole idea of tying together intelligence, creativity and consciousness is part of this rather desperate effort… to prove to themselves… we are the most wonderful… beings in this universe.” (05:40)
• Maya calls for humility and a more scientific, less self-affirming approach.

4. Measuring Creativity

• Pragmatic: Output is all we can rigorously measure; process and intent are harder to quantify.
• Subjectivity is Inevitable:
  Social and cultural factors play major roles, and agreed-upon mathematical formulae fall short.
  • “There isn’t this simple universal guideline for [measuring creative output] across all domains.” (09:26)

5. Examples from Nature: Animal Creativity

• Birds (e.g., bowerbird) and dolphins exhibit creative and intelligent behaviors.
  • “They might integrate [human-made objects] in really cool ways into those creations. That’s really cool.” (10:30)
• Human creativity is broader and more productive—but animals' contributions are valuable and humbling.

6. Human vs. Machine Creativity—What's Different?

• Speed & Breadth: Machines, especially text-to-image models, can create outputs extremely quickly and flexibly.
• Creativity Under Constraints:
  Humans on psychedelics can outpace current AI models in vivid mental imagery—implying unfulfilled human potential.
  • “Human beings on psychedelics… create images faster with more creativity and more details in their brain than text-to-image models.” (16:30)
• Context Matters:
  Machines lack lived experience and context—blindly accepting outputs is “often garbage.”
  • “It doesn’t have your context… your insight into your specific reality… expecting [the machine] to have that is absurd.” (17:11)

7. Hallucination, Prediction, and the Essence of Creativity

• Creativity as Hallucination:
  The tendency to predict and “hallucinate” is not a bug, but a feature.
  • “Creativity is hallucination. The fact that we hate hallucinations so much reveals a lot about our culture.” (19:34)
• Both humans and machines work on predictive mechanisms; both are “hallucination engines.”
  • Story: Maya describes seeing her ex everywhere—a form of human “hallucination” (21:55).
• Machines like Deep Dream reveal visual hallucinations similar to psychedelics in humans.

8. The “Humble Creative Machine”

• Definition:
  An AI that elevates the human, collaborates rather than dominates, enables long-term human improvement.
  • “A humble creative machine is one that does not insist on taking center stage… does whatever it takes… to elevate you permanently.” (26:16)
• Contrasted with the “genius in the room” model, which replaces rather than supports.

9. AI Alignment vs. Creativity

• Alignment Chokes Creativity:
  RLHF and other alignment approaches suppress the imaginative, unexpected outputs of generative AI.
  • “The fundamental mechanism of how they ‘think’ is geared more towards creativity. So they’re going to hallucinate forever.” (14:37)
• Trade-off:
  The more “behaved” the model, the less support for wild creative exploration.

10. Education, AI, and Human Potential

• Students are navigating a challenging landscape—tempted to treat AI as an oracle instead of a tool.
• The danger isn’t the tool, it’s how it’s used: Using AI as a humble partner can elevate learning; using it passively can stifle growth.
  • “Our students are caught in a really difficult place… It’s really up to the education system to adapt.” (57:41)
• AI “slop”: The lowest form of AI use—lazy, uncritical, unreflective adoption of generative outputs.

11. Societal & Economic Implications: Replacement vs. Elevation

• Investor incentives push for replacing humans rather than augmenting them.
  • “People funding the tech, largely have a replace model on how to make money on AI… users want to collaborate with AI… people funding the tech want to replace those people.” (36:30)
• Maya calls for vocal consumer demand: “Don’t replace us. Build tools to elevate us.”
• The tension between replacement and augmentation will define the coming decade.

12. The Future: Human+AI Collaboration

• Collaborative approaches (“human+AI”) are, and will remain, stronger than either alone.
• “Over the next decade… this amazing improvement in human intellect and human creativity [will occur] because of this elevation with AI. Not replacement, but real elevation.” (43:36)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Human Ego:
  "This whole idea of tying together intelligence, creativity and consciousness is part of this rather desperate effort of humans to prove to themselves… that we are the most wonderful, the most important beings in this universe." (00:00 & 05:40)
  — Maya Ackerman

• On Creativity as Output:
  "Measure by the output. I think the only way you can meaningfully measure creativity is by the output." (06:56)
  — Maya Ackerman

• On Hallucination & Creativity:
  "Creativity is hallucination. The fact that we hate hallucinations so much reveals a lot about our culture." (19:34)
  — Maya Ackerman

• On Human Potential:
  "We are not living right now with our brain utilized to our full capacity… The human brain is so much more than we’re aware of today." (16:30 & 34:38)
  — Maya Ackerman

• On Student Use of AI:
  "There is this deeply ingrained belief that the AI is an all knowing oracle and the student has nothing to offer." (57:41)
  — Maya Ackerman

• On the Dangers of AI as Oracle:
  "If you uncritically take its output and publish it… it’s often garbage because it doesn’t have your context, it doesn’t know what you’re looking for." (17:11)
  — Maya Ackerman

• On “Humble Creative Machines”:
  "A humble creative machine is one that does not insist on taking center stage… that the design was the intent of elevating a human being." (26:16 & 29:09)
  — Maya Ackerman

• On Economic Incentives & AI:
  "The reason is investors. Yeah. I was running a company… and I was told to my face many times that if I pivot to replacing [musicians] instead, then funding becomes… simpler." (38:43)
  — Maya Ackerman

• On Path Forward:
  "Don’t replace us. Build tools to elevate us. Because that would actually have meaningful impact." (39:15)
  — Maya Ackerman

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Definition of Creativity: (01:33–03:33)
• Process vs. Product & Role of Evolution: (04:12–05:19)
• Measuring Creativity & Anthropocentrism: (06:56–09:12)
• Animal Creativity: (10:07–11:53)
• Human vs. Machine Creativity: (13:44–17:11)
• Hallucination as Core to Creativity: (19:34–24:03)
• Embodiment and Limitations of AI: (24:19–25:19)
• Humble Creative Machines: (26:13–29:09)
• Alignment’s Impact on Creativity: (14:23–16:20, 54:42–55:20)
• AI “Slop” and Education: (55:20–58:25)
• Societal Implications and the Role of Investors: (36:30–39:15)
• The Future of Human+AI Collaboration: (43:36–44:35)

Final Reflections

Maya Ackerman articulates a vision of AI as a collaborator, not a usurper—one in which human creativity is not threatened by machines, but amplified by them. Yet realizing this vision requires action: by designers (to build "humble creative machines"), by educators (to guide responsible use), and by society (to demand elevation over replacement). Above all, Maya challenges listeners to shed cultural anxieties about AI and embrace the unknown possibilities at the intersection of human and machine creativity.