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- [00:23]
Cameron Caskey
I'm Cameron Caskey.
- [00:24]
Tim Miller
I'm Tim Miller and this is Fypod. And we, boy, we're talking about zoomers and on this pod and zoomers view on the news. And we've decided to go global. You know, not only is this a manosphere podcast, but it's now a global podcast. Cam is in a. Is that a Carmelo Anthony jersey? Whose next jersey is that?
- [00:43]
Cameron Caskey
I didn't look at whose name.
- [00:45]
Tim Miller
Let's turn around. Let's turn around. Let's see it. Let's see who it is. Alan Houston. Oh, Julius Randall. He's on the Timberwolves now, but it's still nice. You're in a Knicks jersey. And so we're doing basketball, we're doing fishing, we're doing porn. What else are boys into? We're doing masculine stuff. And we're also going global by bringing in Drew Pavlou. Does your name rhyme?
- [01:07]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, it does rhyme. It does rhyme.
- [01:08]
Tim Miller
Drew Pavlou, who's Australian, our second straight male. Straight male with an accent. Are you straight? Right.
- [01:16]
Drew Pavlou
The straightest bloke in history? Of course, yes.
- [01:18]
Tim Miller
Okay, so it's our second straight bloke with an accent in a row. This is the fucking manosphere.
- [01:23]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, yeah, good stuff.
- [01:27]
Cameron Caskey
Not only that, Drew, you are our second guest from the British Commonwealth. And, and you, you, you answer to the old king.
- [01:38]
Drew Pavlou
Yes, we, we are a constitutional monarchy. Here in Australia, we just had an election and yeah, it was very similar to the Canadian election. The, the Conservative leader lost his seat and the sort of left wing minor party, like our equivalent of the ndp, the Greens, that leader lost his seat as well. And it was a huge victory for this sort of like center left, moderate left forces. Very interesting.
- [02:01]
Tim Miller
I want to learn more about, about you, but we should just start here with the Aussie election since you got us there. But really quick, that's a kind of a gay dog you're holding. It's not a very masculine animal.
- [02:10]
Drew Pavlou
No, no. Well, it's. It's a girl. It's. It's a girl. It's a labradoodle called Belle. She's a very beautiful creature and she just sits on me while I do my podcast and my streaming. So. But, but I think, I think there is an inherent masculinity in having a creature. I mean, Winston Churchill was a big fan of dogs and we'll make it a straight bloke thing, of course.
- [02:29]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Cameron, is Winston Churchill your model of masculinity? Cameron, when you think of like a.
- [02:33]
Cameron Caskey
Guy, I don't Know, I guess I'm not a real man until I have a creature sitting in my lap like I'm a Bond villain.
- [02:39]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, great way to put it. Great way to put it. Of course.
- [02:42]
Tim Miller
So actually we'll come back to the Aussie election. We're not going to get off course here. We'll come back to that. Cause it was a big win for the anti Trump forces globally. Those of us, all of us, we have a Pope now too. We'll get to that. But so we need to learn about you. The listeners need to learn about you. You came into my frame of view when you started yelling in your blimey accent at Tucker Carlson at an event in Australia. And I was like, wow, who is this bloke yelling at Tucker Carlson, calling him the C word to his face. And I was like, I need to follow that person on social media. So that's how it started. But I know nothing about your life before that. So just like tell us something, like from Baby Drew all the way to yelling at Tucker Carlson, how did you get there?
- [03:28]
Drew Pavlou
Wow, great, great question. No, that's very funny. I love the fact that you saw my crazy protest against Tucker Carlson. I got $1,000 fine for that one, but it was very much worth it.
- [03:39]
Tim Miller
Because you don't live in a free speech country or why are you fined?
- [03:43]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, look, it is, it is a lot tougher in Australia. Like I have a thirty thousand dollar fine from the local authorities for once, holding a blank sign outside the Chinese consulate in my city. So, like it can be pretty tough with free speech in Australia. I'll try to give you. Yeah, it's nuts, it's nuts. I'll give you a bit of my backstory. I went to, you know, I grew up in Australia. My family just sort of like small shopkeepers. Greek, Australian. Where? Greek, Australian by, you know, I was the son of a Greek fruit shop owner basically and, you know, no sort of like no grand dynasty in my family history. I've just always been really obsessed with politics and history and stuff since I was a kid. When I went to university, I became really interested in foreign affairs and I was reading about what was happening to the Uyghur people of Xinjiang, the Muslim minority group that was persecuted.
- [04:40]
Tim Miller
What year would this have been that you're in? University?
- [04:42]
Drew Pavlou
2019. I'm still in university, but it's a long story and I'll try explain it very quickly. But I, I, I was interested in what was happening to the Uyghur people, the Muslim minority group, over a Million have been rounded up by the Chinese government in concentration camps, modern day concentration camps. I became interested in the Tibet issue and also this was around the time that the Hong Kong movement was blasting up. And it was really, that was something really powered by like, sort of like Gen Z, like you know, really young people watching people that were like my age fight in the streets against the Hong Kong police for democracy, getting cracked, getting brutally cracked down on by this communist regime, Communist backed regime that really lit a fire. Me and I, I wanted to organize a sort of solidarity protest at my university. You might not be, you might not be aware of this, but Australia has a really close economic relationship with China where it is by far our largest trading partner. And you know, a massive amount of Australian jobs and GDP relies upon exports to China. So at this time it was really not something that many people in Australia wanted to talk about. The human rights abuses that were taking place in China. I and also, you know, the university system was very much dependent on sort of like Chinese international students. So for example, at my university, the University of Queensland, it was 20% of the university budget, $300 million a year over a long term period. That's you know, a billion dollar relationship. And as part of that like the university president, vice chancellor, they, they, you know, would often travel to China. You might have heard of Confucius Institutes. These are the Chinese government backed courses that exist on, at, in universities across the world. They sort of, people try and present them as a kind of like Alliance Francois type thing, but really they are backed completely by the Chinese government. They have like, kind of like no academic independence. They frequently teach a line on Chinese history and politics that is only acceptable to the Chinese Communist Party. And my university had a Confucian Institute and the president of the university, a man bloke named Peter Hoy, he was on the board of Hanban, the Chinese government organization that ran Confucian Institute worldwide. He, he even received a medal from the Chinese government for his advocacy of Confucian Institute.
- [06:57]
Tim Miller
So they didn't like your protest none too much, I take it.
- [06:59]
Drew Pavlou
So to cut a long story short, I organized a small rally. It was the first protest I'd ever done really with like 20 of my mates. And it was crazy response. It was a crazy response. There was a video of my dad the night before screaming at me, keep a low fucking profile, blah blah blah. And I was like, no, no, no, I'm going to keep going. And the next day I was in the Washington Post and the BBC and it was like the first time I'd ever been in the news or anything. Like, just I was a completely anonymous bloke. Suddenly there were posts on Chinese social media with my name on it and photo with had, which had tens of millions of views. Basically what happened was about 300 pro China Nationalist students came out and tried to beat me up. I got punched in the back of the head a couple times. It was a pretty crazy protest. And it was funny. The two or three guys who particularly, like, punched on with me and tried to bash me up, they were like in their 30s, weren't even students. They were like big hulking guys with backpacks and earpieces and sunglasses. Like, it was really suspicious. The Chinese Consul General in my city, his name was Zhu Xia, and he was an honorary professor at my university. They'd given him an honorary doctorate. And he put out a statement endorsing the violence, saying it was patriotic. The guys who had opposed me. And that was when I became an enemy of the Chinese government. And suddenly I had all these death threats across social media. Thousands.
- [08:08]
Tim Miller
It was just you and 20 blokes, and you became an enemy of the Chinese government. I know Cam had a protest. He organized a protest that had 2 million people at it.
- [08:17]
Cameron Caskey
Yeah, that's a very. That's a very generous count, but the Chinese aren't on.
- [08:22]
Tim Miller
Are you on the Chinese radar, Cam?
- [08:24]
Cameron Caskey
I have been posting clips from the show on TikTok because apparently you're supposed to do that. And my TikToks were only getting, like a couple thousand views. It was really nothing, extremely explosive. And then I posted these two TikTok videos where I was explaining how China was going to win the trade war with the United States. And suddenly when I was saying this stuff about how China's got a leg up on us, my TikToks start getting all these views. And I was like, I wonder if our friends at the CCP are, Are. Are liking what I'm saying just a little bit too much. But, you know, also, we have Trump to blame for China's leg up on us. So my question for you, Drew, is I'm hearing all this stuff. You are the son of fruit salesman.
- [09:10]
Drew Pavlou
You.
- [09:10]
Cameron Caskey
I. I know absolutely nothing else about your life except for that you went right into the Chinese Communist Party thing. And I'm just like, okay, you know, I'm no fan of the ccp. I have a problem with Muslims being persecuted everywhere in this planet. You know, a lot of people who are upset about what's happening to the Uyghurs don't seem as upset about what's happening.
- [09:29]
Drew Pavlou
Exactly.
- [09:30]
Cameron Caskey
The Muslims in Gaza, but that's a different story. My question is, like, you know, you're growing up. You've got the queen, of course, RIP Legend.
- [09:41]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah.
- [09:41]
Cameron Caskey
Where did. Where did communism touch you?
- [09:45]
Drew Pavlou
Oh, look, look. Well, this is the funny thing. I never really set out to be an anti communist activist or an anti China activist. Anti CCP activist. Right. Never even in a million years. I. I just was feeling, you know, it was when the Hong Kong protests were starting off. A funny fact of, you know, funny coincidence is My birthday is June 4, 1999. So I was born 10 years to the day of Tiananmen. So, like, it was around the 30th anniversary of Tiananmen when I was turning.
- [10:08]
Tim Miller
You're familiar with the date of Tiananmen Square, right? Cam, if we just asked you to kind of Name the date June 4, 1989, you had that.
- [10:14]
Cameron Caskey
I'm focused. You know what? The United States government is brutalizing our people, protesting it so much that it's. It's hard to keep up with when it's happening in China. But I, you know, of course I know the famous image, and of course, I know that dissent in China is probably not going to be as complicated.
- [10:32]
Drew Pavlou
They murdered. Like, they murdered. They murdered hundreds of people. And, you know, it was my 20th birthday. It was the 30th anniversary of Tiananmen. I remember there were guys at my university who were trying to say it never happened and stuff like that. And so it was just like a confluence of events. It was really just chance that I was really passionate about that issue. At one time, I thought I was just going to do one rally and never think about it again. Not never think about again, but just never really, you know, I never set out to be an activist. It was after that they tried to expel me from the university. So the Chinese government put out articles through their state media saying, the Chinese students of the university demand this guy be expelled. Otherwise. And they were implicitly sort of threatening the revenue stream, threatening that they would block Chinese students going to my university. And the university then brought in two of Australia's top four law firms, and they spent, like, up to probably half a million dollars in Australian taxpayer money investigating me and trying to expel me from the university. So that's my backstory, and that is insane. Yeah.
- [11:23]
Tim Miller
I would say if at Kamala Harris one, I would say it's time for you to come to the land of milk and honey and, you know, come to the land where you're allowed to speak and speak your mind without being targeted by the government.
- [11:33]
Cameron Caskey
But unfortunately you're allowed to speak your mind without getting targeted by the government.
- [11:37]
Tim Miller
Not anymore. Not anymore. Here. But that was something you could have done in America in the year, I don't know, 2021. Was the Joe Biden government targeting anybody for their speech, Cameron, that you were worried about?
- [11:49]
Cameron Caskey
Are we talking about the Joe Biden government or the feds while Joe Biden was in the government? Because I do have a feeling that people who are speaking out against the government were being closely monitored by our pretty intense anti terror investigators.
- [12:03]
Tim Miller
I mean, I don't think anybody got fined for carrying a blank sign.
- [12:06]
Cameron Caskey
Yeah, I mean, the blank sign thing is, is, you know, it would be farcically comedic if it wasn't true. But my question for you is, why were you carrying a blank sign?
- [12:16]
Drew Pavlou
Oh. So I was, I was, I was campaigning for election. I, I ran as a small, like sort of independent ticket in 2022. I was like 22 years old. I was like, yeah, I was one of the youngest.
- [12:27]
Tim Miller
Like that is like for like the House of Dingoes or what was.
- [12:30]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, I ran for the Australian Senate and you know, I didn't do too well, but as part of that, you know, I had a campaign about the Chinese government trying to raise awareness in Australia about, you know, the human rights abuses, etc. And I held like a blank sign on one side of it. It said nothing happened June 4, 1989. And then I flipped it over for it to be blank and a sort of like satirical, satirical representation of the fact that there's a lot of censorship when it comes to Chinese human rights abuses and, yeah, $30,000 fine. And look, the sad thing is that it didn't really stop there. I had a Uyghur friend. My email got hacked in 2021 by an IP address in Hong Kong. I had a weaker friend in Australia that I was talking to a lot about what was happening. His mum got taken after my, after my emails were hacked because I had, I had sort of like, I had taken down his story and, and talked to people at Human Rights Watch about his story and obviously they were identifying details about his life. His mum got taken for six months. That was really horrific.
- [13:22]
Tim Miller
And then you made the Uyghur friend after the pro. You did start protesting or like you already had a weaker.
- [13:26]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, no, no, I mean, I, I met him at that first step of a protest and, and yeah, like we talked about his life story. I wrote down His a short thing about his life story. And I was helping Human Rights Watch in Australia compile like, kind of evidence about Australians who were from a background, you know, they had family back home under the Chinese government and they were facing persecution still. So he had shown me, for example, I've still got this video. Like, there was a Chinese police officer who FaceTimed him one time while he was in Australia working. One time they had his mum next to him in the police station. Basically said, give us over, like, your car registration details, give us your address. He was living in Australia. My week of friend and the FaceTime call was from a Chinese police officer in Xinjiang with his mom next to him in the police station. And they were like telling. They were saying, like, give us where your children go to school in Australia. So, you know, I had. And I had a lot of Tibetan friends and Hong Kong friends as well, who'd faced, you know, that type of harassment in Australia too. So I was compiling these sort of records and I was working with Human Rights Watch in Australia about this, this stuff. Transnational repression, they call it. And. And then, yeah, like, because my emails were hacked, his mum was taken without any explanation for six, six to nine months, something like that. And then afterwards it got even crazier. They started a bomb threat campaign against me. My brother plays college soccer in America, in New York. They did a bomb threat in his name. They created a fake email address in my brother's name and sent it off to lax, saying that they're going to bomb the airport. Three FBI agents visited my brother in New York City at his college soccer dorm. They did it to my mum. There were, you know, a series of bomb threats in my mum's name. Essentially what they do is they just create proton mails which hide the IP address and then they would do these fraudulent bomb threats in the name of me and my family members. And I was in London. I was once protesting outside the Chinese Embassy in London and the London Metropolitan Police pulled up and they were armed and they put me in the back of a paddock wagon, put me in a rear stack, handcuffed position, treated me like a terrorist suspect. I was held incommunicado for 24 hours without the ability to talk to a lawyer or the Australian embassy because the Chinese embassy had said, oh, this guy did a bomb threat. And eventually the police showed it to me in the morning at like 4am and it was, hi, this is Drew. Today I'll bomb the embassy at 12. Regards, Drew. And based off that, that's just How.
- [15:43]
Tim Miller
Nor. That's how people usually talk.
- [15:44]
Drew Pavlou
That's how bomb.
- [15:45]
Cameron Caskey
It was nice of them to at least suggest that you had the decorum to offer regards.
- [15:50]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Unfortunately I've. I've had a pretty bad history with all that. The funny thing is, and I was going to mention this before because I came out so strongly against the Chinese Communist Party, a lot of like MAGA people tried to rally around me. So I remember when I was getting expelled from the University of Queensland, which is the university that was trying to pressure me.
- [16:08]
Tim Miller
Tell me Bannon called you.
- [16:10]
Drew Pavlou
No, not Bannon, not Bannon, but Jack Posobiek. I remember.
- [16:13]
Cameron Caskey
Oh my Pizzagate Jack called you.
- [16:17]
Drew Pavlou
So he shared my story and I literally just replied off I hate you. And he deleted it like so.
- [16:22]
Tim Miller
So look, we found a new Cameron replacement. Sorry Cameron, I just, I've got to throw up my leg right now. He's an anti communist, he shit talking Pizzagate Jack.
- [16:31]
Cameron Caskey
You just have a preponderance of new cams. I don't know how you're going to keep up. You should, you should keep these new cams at the, at Astro Pizza and.
- [16:41]
Tim Miller
Astro Pizza. What was the place in the basement?
- [16:43]
Drew Pavlou
The basement? Yeah.
- [16:45]
Tim Miller
What was the pizza place called in D.C. with the basement? Remember that comet?
- [16:49]
Cameron Caskey
Ping pong, Same outer space theme. Yeah. I heard a story once of my friend who was at a very, very prestigious university in a master's program where there was one kid who was either Uyghur or had family members who were Uyghurs living in China. And then there was another kid who is from China who is very aligned with the CCP and their, and their agenda. And during a heated argument in class, the CCP aligned student said, I'm gonna have my family call the government and make some reports about your family.
- [17:26]
Drew Pavlou
This stuff happens. Like I, I've had even just like. So when we did that first protest, like there were two, three guys from China who, who came to our projects who were like pro democracy guys. All of them had their family members visited by state security police in China within two, three days of that protest. That one of them. Yeah. So all of them visit by state security. And I've had a lot of students at my university from China who were like, oh, you know, I once had, I once got coffee with this Chinese student and he was like, oh you know, let's make sure we, we try find a spot on campus where no one will see us. He was really worried that someone would report him. And you know, he basically said Oh, I know about Tiananmen. I think what you're doing is really cool. But, you know, I wish I could support, but there's a lot of pressure. So it happens, right? And, and look, that's the funny thing. That was my background. I was always sort of like an anti maga guy from the start because, look, my whole thing has always been anti authoritarianism. And you know, Trump is authoritarian and I sort of, I didn't coin the term, but I, I guess I sort of helped to popularize the whole MAGA Maoism thing recently where.
- [18:27]
Tim Miller
I mean, just, just let's tell people about magma. Actually, before we do that, just really quick, I'm going to look in the camera. Eat shit, China. You fucking suck. You're the fucking worst Chinese Communist Party.
- [18:38]
Drew Pavlou
We like to say the cobbler is not Kanye.
- [18:40]
Tim Miller
I don't know, broadly speaking. And Sebastian, please put that on TikTok.
- [18:44]
Cameron Caskey
Okay, do me a favor. Sorry, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hop in real quick just because I'm interested in being safe and comfortable and prospering and I already have some things to say about Israel, which is going to have some eyes on me. I would just like to say, President Xi, if I could spend my entire life walking that belt road, I would. I hope you acquire not only soft but hard power. And I just want to let you know that I've seen pictures of your country and it looks very beautiful. And those ghost cities that you guys build that nobody ends up living in, it just looks like a haunted dead place. I. I want to raise my family and have. And have, unfortunately, only one child there.
- [19:29]
Drew Pavlou
They've lifted that now. They've lifted that now, actually.
- [19:33]
Cameron Caskey
Okay. I want to have a. I want to have a preponderance of white Jewish, Chinese born children there. And. And you're.
- [19:39]
Drew Pavlou
Oh, yeah.
- [19:41]
Cameron Caskey
So. So I don't associate with Tim Miller and Will Jiao. Kumai Long.
- [19:47]
Tim Miller
That is the tiniest micro hard power you've ever seen coming out of Chairman Xi.
- [19:52]
Cameron Caskey
I can count to 10. Er Sun Tzu, Wu, Liu Qi, Baja.
- [19:56]
Drew Pavlou
Pretty good.
- [19:57]
Tim Miller
How do you say tiny cock in and Chinese? You got that?
- [20:01]
Cameron Caskey
We'll get back to you on our Monday evening episode about that.
- [20:05]
Tim Miller
All right. Drew, you were talking about how you kind of have popularized, helped popularize, and I've stolen it from you, actually. So you're inspiring me already.
- [20:12]
Drew Pavlou
That's good.
- [20:13]
Tim Miller
This notion that Trump has a Maoist worldview, I don't really understand it, I'm going to have to admit, but it sounds fun and so I've been saying it, but explain what's behind that.
- [20:25]
Drew Pavlou
So look, MAGA Maoism, we just call attention to the fact that there's a really scary and alarming cult of personality around Trump where, you know, he has these cabinet meetings and everybody has to like literally go around and praise Dear Leader and, you know, thank him for, you know, his God given talents and what he's contributed to the world. And, you know, it's just pointing out like a number of really disturbing facts, like, you know, the extreme cult of personality, the, you know, instinct towards hyper authoritarianism and also as well, and this is like a really interesting and funny new part to it. And I think this is probably the part that helped Maga Masam, you know, become more popular as a concept. The kind of cult of sacrifice that has now propped up around Trump where, you know, in light of the tariffs that you now have his surrogates and his influences going out going, you know, you must accept poverty, you must accept sacrifice, you must accept the lower living standard, you must work in the factories, you must mind the tin. Like, like all these people who, they voted for Trump because they're like, oh, grocery prices were too high. All of a sudden they're saying money isn't important. And we literally had Benny Johnson, one of the top MAGA influences. And this was the most.
- [21:39]
Tim Miller
Who's very straight, by the way, definitely.
- [21:41]
Cameron Caskey
Not gay, was just heterosexual King Benny.
- [21:44]
Tim Miller
Johnson Googling gay cruises. Nothing. Not, not just as many heterosexual men do.
- [21:49]
Drew Pavlou
Sorry, that was, yeah, that was the guy who, he. What was it? He had an advertisement for gay cruises and he, like, this is disgusting. Google's work. It's like, it's based on your search history, man.
- [22:02]
Cameron Caskey
Can we take a step, can we take. Oh, sorry, you were saying?
- [22:04]
Tim Miller
Finish your point about MAGA malism, then.
- [22:06]
Drew Pavlou
We'Ll go, yeah, look, Betty, Johnson came out and he literally had a post where he was like, money doesn't mean everything. Like, you will learn more and you will, you know, you will have a better quality of life if you learn to reject material goods. And so like, this is, this is the Maoist parts of Maga Maoism, you know, the love of chaos, the cult of sacrifice around the leader, the idea of the universities.
- [22:29]
Tim Miller
The cultural revolution part.
- [22:31]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, absolutely. You know, trying to purge the universities, trying to purge, you know, intellectuals. And then, yeah, just like this strange new element of Trumpism where they're literally saying, if Trumpism crashes the economy, you have to accept that because it's in the interest, it's in our political interest. It's in the political interests of Trump and of the leader. So yeah, this is the kind of Maga Maoist mentality and I call it kind of like a third world mentality as well. One of the funny things is Trump really seems to hate the West. And when the way he talks about America, it's a funny thing, but he sounds like a decolonial sort of academic. He talks about, he literally uses the words America has been raped, the world has pillaged and raped America. He talks like he's kind of like a global south, like, you know, leftist Leninist, kind of anti imperialist leader. So these are all the weird elements that have come into it. And the fact that he really seems to hate like, sort of like, like modern Western liberalism, which is, you know, hating, hating like, you know, like the, the basic standards of, of governance and you know, the rule of law, you know, freedom of expression, freedom of speech, like all these things that really define, you know, modern Western states and help us not to be basket cases. Like, like that's the difference between, you know, a failing state and a pretty prosperous, you know, well developed country. You know, the rule of law, a fair legal system, all these other things. And they're just trying to purge all that and try to destroy all that. And it really seems like a lot of them have actually said it. I remember Nick Fuentes said he would rather have a lower gdp, he'd rather have a poorer country than live next to Indians. A lot of these guys just outright say that. Right?
- [24:02]
Tim Miller
So you're trying to chime in on something.
- [24:04]
Cameron Caskey
Well, I, I want to go back and do a little history lesson in one sec, but real quick, beforehand you're talking about leftists and that brings to mind just this thing that goes on, I'm sure across the west, but I'm just, you know, I'm a very Americo centric commentator. This thing that happens here in the, in the red, white and blue, the, the extremely successful and going to be successful for a long time country of America.
- [24:30]
Drew Pavlou
Hell yeah.
- [24:30]
Cameron Caskey
People like to use the word leftist to describe shit that is just straight up, not leftism. They like to use the word leftist to describe somebody who's progressive in really any way, someone who has some values that might be closer to democratic socialism and stuff like that. And I guess my question for you is, you know, while you've got people like Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, who's talk, talks about wealth redistribution and things like that, being branded as a leftist, and then you've got leftists who are way closer to full blown communism. Where do you draw the line? Yeah, yeah. What is, what is a leftist to you? And how do you think people should talk about progressive politicians in the United States? Because from what I understand, what, what we consider left wing in the United States is actually way more moderate in other developed countries.
- [25:25]
Drew Pavlou
Well, funny fact, right? Like in Australia, both the center left and the center right parties support universal public health care. Like our conservative politicians in Australia support universal public health care. And that's not even on the, on the agenda. Right. Like no one would even touch that. Even the most right wing people in Australian politics, I don't think I've seen a single person say, abolish public health care in favor of a fully privatized system. So yeah, obviously America has its own kind of like political spectrum, which is strange. I'm very lucky. I grew up in a country with universal public health care. I think it's good. So look, my, my views might be strange to somebody in America. I mean, I'm an anti communist who supports universal public health care. I'm, I'm somebody who, you know, obviously you have to draw a distinction between somebody like Bernie Sanders and I actually think Bernie Sanders is probably more of like a social Democrat figure. I mean he called himself a democratic socialist, I think for branding. I think in reality he's more of a social democrat figure. If you compare him to say like Jeremy Corbyn, his foreign, Bernie's foreign policy takes are infinitely better than Jeremy Corbyn. I think that's the division. Right. Like there are people on the left who we would call tankies. And that's a pejorative term that comes back to, it goes all the way Back to the 1956 Hungarian uprising when the Soviets sent in tanks to crush the Hungarians. And basically in the left, in, in the western left, like the communists who supported the Soviets crushing the, crushing the protesters, they became pejoratively termed tankies. And it's really something from Britain, I think, but it's a really good term to use. It's. I think that's the distinction. Right. Like I've got no problem with ASCs, most of AOC's economic views, I don't really have too much of a problem with them. Right. And honestly, most of her foreign policy takes a fine. I saw her the other day, unfortunately she voted with like MTG and Laura Boebert on this policy that would oppose sanctioning the regime in Georgia which is like a pro Russian dictatorship, essentially. At this point I thought that was Sad, because maybe that's just someone in an office hasn't given her the right briefing or whatever. I think this whole squad voted on that as a bloc to, like, vote against sanctions on this state. In Georgia, which is essentially a pro Kremlin dictatorship at this point, I thought that was really bad. They were voting alongside mtg. Always a really bad sign. Sometimes aoc, I think does.
- [27:32]
Tim Miller
You might want to double check. Any time you're checking the same box as mtg, you might just get a quick look at the fine print.
- [27:38]
Cameron Caskey
Except for those things where the far right and the. In our country, quote, far left are getting along. Like when they're talking about banning congressional stock trading and stuff.
- [27:49]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, sure. I mean, that's, like, one issue that's okay, I think. I mean, that's also crazy to me as an Australian that you guys have that, because I think. I think in Australia, every single MP basically has to, like, yeah, file full on public interest disclosure, everybody knows exactly what their assets are, etc. I don't know, maybe you guys have that already. But. But, yeah, look, like. I think aoc, most of our foreign policy views are fine. Some of them. I would still have a. Some. Some of them are still criticized. Like, I think it was silly when she, like, made it when. I thought it was a bit silly when she, like, made a big show and dance of, like, she did vote for it, but she, like, cried when she voted for the Dome, which is like, I guess, like a defensive weapon system in Israel that defends civilians.
- [28:28]
Tim Miller
Oh, God. Okay, we're skipping through this. I don't want to hear Cameron talk about Bibi again. Okay, let's just. We're with you on it.
- [28:35]
Cameron Caskey
I haven't talked about BB in a week.
- [28:37]
Drew Pavlou
I don't like Bibby. I don't like Bibby.
- [28:39]
Tim Miller
But.
- [28:39]
Drew Pavlou
But look, I was gonna say, I. I think AOC is obvious. Like, overall, she's not that bad, especially if you compare her to someone like Jeremy Corbyn who, like, literally went and met with Hamas, literally, when he met with Hezbollah, like, has praised. Basically praised pewter, like, all these.
- [28:51]
Tim Miller
Did you see.
- [28:51]
Cameron Caskey
Did you see Trump called the Houthis brave?
- [28:54]
Drew Pavlou
I saw that. Yeah. Very strange. Very strange. So, look, the funny thing is it. It really is something on the extreme right and the extreme left. And I'm not saying I don't. I don't put AOC in the extreme left. I think, you know, extreme left is like sort of the tankies. The far right and the tankies really seem to just hate America and They really seem to hate Western countries. And you know, it's funny, you had that famous quote by infamous quote by Trump where he, he was asked about Putin killing a dissident. He basically said, oh, what, you think we're so good? You know, like, like we've got killers too. Our country sucks as well. Like, these guys really hate the idea that there are any moral ideals at all. And, and yeah, look, that's the thing. There's the tankies in the extreme right. They, they hate the West. They love to put on the West. They love to say our countries have fallen and are disgusting, morally disgusting. And I guess they've got a weird unity ticket on the Russia stuff because the far right guys love Russia because they project it as, oh, this hyper masculine state that's against the gays and really conservative and Christian. It's like literally, it's literally like a debauched, horrible hellhole. Like with like, the Russians are awful.
- [30:02]
Tim Miller
I know. So I know that in the, in previously you were quick to correct me and say that we criticize the ccp, not the Chinese. And that's fine. That is not. The Russian culture is horrible. Oh, Russian, you can agree with me. Putin is bad, but actually the entire Russian culture is really bad.
- [30:18]
Drew Pavlou
And unfortunately like, that's because there's like majority support for Putinism in Russia. That's the sad reality of it.
- [30:24]
Cameron Caskey
Didn't the guy who Putin killed, that Navalny. Yeah. Didn't. Didn't he come like kind of close even with all the election meddling?
- [30:33]
Drew Pavlou
No, look, he, look, he, he was relatively popular. Like he. It's interesting. If there had been free and fair elections, it might have been different. Look, I don't necessarily go into the same thing, but some of the people in the pro Ukraine crowd actually really hate Navalny and they say like, look, if he was in charge, they still would have invaded Ukraine. I don't necessarily hold to that view, but like, they do point to like the fact that when he was a much younger he had like far right views. He was really nationalistic and stuff like that. I, I personally think like, he did change over time. He did oppose the war in Ukraine stuff, but there are a lot of people who like, are in the backyard of Russia and Eastern Europe who have had, you know, histories where they've been oppressed by Russia for decades, centuries. And like, they hated Navelny as well.
- [31:14]
Tim Miller
Long story short, there's no good Russians. Speaking of Russian sympathizers, do you want to tell us briefly about the Tucker encounter? I honestly don't really remember. I just remember you were yelling at him and waving a flag at him and I followed you. That's my only memory.
- [31:29]
Drew Pavlou
Look. That was one of my best ever protests, basically. Yeah. Over the years, like I've been, I've always been like a protester, I guess. And when Ukraine happened, I was immediately really passionate about the cause. I knew that basically China was fully backing Russia in invading Ukraine. I saw it as very similar. I mean, I saw it literally as a unique ticket because China was preparing, China still is under, fortunately preparing to invade Taiwan. So I see it really as a unified issue. And, and Tucker was brought out by a far right billionaire in Australia called Clive Palmer. It's very funny. He's. The past three elections he spent 350 million Australian dollars in inflation, probably with inflation probably up to $500 million. Over the past three election he's won one seat. So like he's pretty hated in Australia, this guy.
- [32:13]
Tim Miller
I wish our far right billionaires were losers like that.
- [32:15]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, it's pretty funny to be on platform. And look, he brought Tucker Carlson out on his private jet to Australia, paid him probably an exorbitant fee to just host these lectures around Australia. And I found out he was coming to my city, Brisbane. And I hate the guy so much because of what he's done with pro Russian sentiment, his propaganda. I, I think you can literally track when Tucker started talking shit about Ukraine and attacking Ukraine and when MAGA and the Republicans started hating Ukraine. I think it like literally coincides perfectly. I think he's been probably one of the most influential people in making right wingers in America hate Ukraine. And I saw he was coming to Brisbane, I was like, of course I'm going to that. I literally bought a ticket for 150 bucks. And then, and then this was actually pretty cheeky of me. I mean like the funny thing was I, you know, over the years there have been conservatives who've liked what I've done because of, you know, he's like so anti communist. A lot of people don't like the Chinese government etc and this, this like young conservative, like I think it was a, I think it was a member like the Young Liberals, which, our liberals in America, sorry, our liberals in Australia are the conservatives, which is a funny fact. But you know, like this young liberal guy who must have known me for my protest, like he saw me then was like, oh dude, I love your stuff. Come sit with me in the front row with my dad. Like he had bought a ticket. They must have been rich, they Bought a ticket. I've got nothing against him. I feel bad for him. I had snuck the Ukraine flag under my, like, literally in my pants. And I just waited until, like, Tucker came out. It was really torturous because it literally took him, like, an hour and a half to come out. I didn't even know why. And I just waited, like, 10 minutes, and I was already in the first row, and I literally pulled the Ukraine flag out, and I was just like, stop licking Putin's ass. I just started screaming at him and. And then he started going on a rant like, this is awesome. I hate Ukraine. Fuck these guys. Like, and he just, like, went on a big rant, and the police frog marched me out of there. I got $1,000 fine, but it was worth it. And the really good thing I'm good at. I'm good at organizing this shit. I. I made sure to buy two tickets because I got my friend in and I sent him on the opposite side of the place. And I was like. I was literally texting. I was like, I'm going to do it now. And I got him to film the whole thing. So it worked well. It worked well. It was good stuff. It was good fun. And Tucker. Tucker had, like, a whole minute of hate directed against me, mocking me and laughing as I got frog marched out of there and. And yelling like, oh, fuck Ukraine. Basically, that was one of my best practice. I'm very glad I did that.
- [34:30]
Cameron Caskey
A lot of. There's a lot of Americans who love Russia and who. And who think that this. This Putin guy ain't so bad. A lot of these MAGA voters. I think a lot of MAGA voters don't actually like Russia that much. They just love the racism enough that they're just pretending to love Russia. But a lot of them seem to stan Russia at this point. And I just. I want to ask you, how do. Because, of course, Russia is this communist country, so these people who hate communism are also loving Russia. How do China and Russia implement communism differently? And where do both of them diverge from what communism has actually set out to be in what is supposedly the good version?
- [35:15]
Drew Pavlou
Well, look, look, Russia is in a communist state today, and they don't claim to be. They do have a cult of memory and propaganda around the Soviet times? And so it's really interesting. Like, I would actually say Putin is more transparent. Like, I'd say Putin is more straightforwardly a fascist guy. Like, it's all about basically, like, you know, cult of imperialism, cult of the leader. He refers to himself as A new sa. He brought back the imperial eagle. It's interesting like at the same time as the fact that, you know, the same time that they are fascist and in official terms I hate the Soviet Union. They have basically revived this whole cult of Soviet nostalgia, nostalgia for Stalin. Putin has referred to Stalin as a strong leader, etc. There's wide, I think this polling in Russian society where like 60%, like a majority, a strong majority, think Stalin was a great figure in their history. And they've had Ukrainian, they've had Russian troops in Ukraine while they're fighting, fighting under Soviet sickles, Soviet hammer and sickles and Soviet flags and stuff like that, the Red army flag. And it's weird because it's like a kind of weird toxic fusion of like Soviet nostalgia with modern day fascism.
- [36:25]
Tim Miller
And there's like, I'm a cultural Catholic, you know, like I like to sing the songs at Christmas. I'm like a cultural Catholic. I don't like follow all the rules, you know, but shout out to the new Pope. They're kind of culturally communist, but they're not going for like the rules.
- [36:39]
Drew Pavlou
I would say culturally, like look, I'd say the, the tradition of autocracy and authoritarianism, Russia is unfortunate, is so strong. And when the war started, I started reading the books of Svetlana Alexei, which is a Belarusian writer, and she's like a, she won the Nobel Prize for literature and she basically has these oral histories of Soviet society and stuff like that. And when you read that you're like, oh my God, it's so much deeper than just the leader. There is like unfortunately a really long history of just like hardcore daily brutality and violence in Russian society. And it goes back decades. Like some of this she would interview like, like in her book she would interview guys who were like Soviet commissars who were like tortured themselves by the party. Like during Stalin's purges, they would purge themselves and brutally tortured. And yet they still were like hardcore communists and still defended the whole overall great purges. Like there's a really scary mentality there. And look, the strange thing is as well, people sometimes like to say that China today is not communist because obviously they have a very advanced cons, they have a very advanced like semi market economy. And a lot of people, a lot of people, especially a lot of left wing theorists like to call it state capitalism. Look at the end of the day it is a Marxist Leninist system. The entire constitution of China, the entire Communist Party, it is modeled on Marxist Leninism. The theory of like, you know, Leninist vanguard politics where you know, have you had the cadres and, and you have the, you know, centralized discipline of the party, etc. G. When When Xi first came to power, he circulated a now infamous document called document number nine and essentially they were telling all the underlings that Western style concepts like constitutionalism, democracy, all these things were to be regarded as basically ideological poisons that had to be purged from the system completely. It's interesting, there are also a lot of fascist elements to China today. I would actually, I've argued for a long time that in reality it has more maybe fascist undertones than communist because look like, is it really like a worker's paradise? Is it really like a worker state? I mean they have the same sort of corporatist economic policies as fascism. You may know like fascists were all about like we must transcend class division by, you know, having the employers and the unions in the same corporate bodies and stuff like that.
- [39:00]
Tim Miller
China costumes are kind of the same as fascism too. They have costumes, you know.
- [39:04]
Cameron Caskey
Yeah, that's sort of what I was trying to get at is like, you know, I think of the people I know who are, I think pro communist might be a dramatic way of putting it, but who, who support a lot of things that are at least considered.
- [39:19]
Tim Miller
Communist, who've read a Marxist theory book.
- [39:21]
Cameron Caskey
The thing, yeah, they got like a pamphlet in college and it became their whole personality and they started tweeting. But I think the thing that they would say, you know, when you talk about, you know, China under Mao Zedong and when you talk about the ccp, when you talk about Stalin, what they say is sure, we call that communism, but that's not. But, but they diverged from what communism's actually about. That's not communism as it should be. We, we're, we're advocates for communism. The good version, and I guess my question for you is what is the good version?
- [39:56]
Drew Pavlou
I think that's cope like there's, there's now the infamous saying online. People use it to mock the comments. They basically go, real communism has never been tried. These, these people, they will always, every single time communism been implemented or tried, there's been mass atrocities associated with it. You know, massive amounts of death, massive amounts of horrific, hellish atrocities. And, and I think people on the extreme tanky left like to say, well no, true communism has never been tried. But I mean you could like there could be a Nazi who goes, no, true fascism has never been tried. Right, right. Like it's really a massive amount of code and look you know, the funny thing is maybe one day we will have people say real MAGA has never been tried. Real Trumpism.
- [40:37]
Tim Miller
We're already gonna see, we're already sort.
- [40:38]
Drew Pavlou
Of, we're sort of seeing that a little bit now. Like, I've seen some Trump people go like, well, you know, the way he implements it is bad, but the general spirit of the ethos is good. It's funny. Kevin Rudd, the Australian ambassador to China, he's the former Prime Minister here, really cool guy. Actually, he supported me. He put out a statement endorsing me saying I shouldn't be expelled when the university was trying to expel me in Australia. He has written this book, Let Me Get It Up. Actually, it was on my bookshelf. He's written this really good book. I actually legitimately enjoyed it.
- [41:08]
Tim Miller
You do have a big book, Schlong. You're just showing off all those books.
- [41:12]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, no, no, I love my books. But on Xi Jinping. He wrote a PhD at Oxford on Xi Jinping thought and what he does in that book. He like just basically studies all of Xi Jinping's propaganda speeches and he calls it Marxist nationalism. And I think that's a more polite way of saying national Socialism. Essentially. His argument is that on economics he's g. Has moved decisively to the left. He's, he's constantly told the party cadres, we should not forget our communist roots, we should not forget our Marxist roots. We must go back to that. He obviously clamped down on the economy a lot. There was the purge of Jack Ma and stuff like that, which interestingly, he's brought him back into the fold now. But on, on economic policies, Xi has decisively moved China to the left and has tried to rein in the so called excesses of the market in China and tried to place much more of a state role. There are Communist Party basically control units, Communist Party sort of like, yeah, control units that exist even in private market companies in China. So they basically existed as commissars to just watch over and make sure that people are following the correct political line. And that is that whole move to the left in the Chinese economy has, has been linked to, you know, a pretty significant downturn in China. I actually do think Cameron's right that overall they unfortunately do have more of a leg up on America when it comes to trade war. I think that's probably correct. But there has been a lot of economic problems in China the past couple of years that have been associated with Xi Jinping's authoritarianism. And Kevin Rudd says he's moved to the left on economics, but on nationalism, he's moved hard to the right. And when he calls it Marxist nationalism, I think it's a more polite way of saying national Socialism. All right, yeah.
- [42:48]
Tim Miller
I've got two cultural questions for both of you. For the Gen Z, for the Zoomers before we get to the Boomer.
- [42:53]
Drew Pavlou
Sounds good. Sounds good.
- [42:53]
Tim Miller
In the end of the show, the first cultural question is kind of related to Cameron's question. I'm trying to. And maybe it's different in Australia. I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Like when you were first started talking, you're like, you were drawn to the Hong Kong protests.
- [43:06]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah.
- [43:06]
Tim Miller
So really were a lot of young people. And we did see a lot of young people here in America and around the world on the Palestine protests. Politically speaking, it feels very different from when I was growing up as to what are the en vogue ideologies. You see a lot of people drawn to Charlie Kirk magasm, Right?
- [43:24]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah.
- [43:24]
Tim Miller
And you see a lot of people drawn to some version of aoc, all the way over to the Luigi pamphlet people. And there's not a lot of Drews like where are the good freedom loving twinks? You know, where are the 25 year old Liberal values? Libertarian, you know, but also I want health care for people. Like that's a. There's a big ideological center that's like not. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that is?
- [43:56]
Drew Pavlou
That is very true. And look, that's what I'm trying to get at in like all my sort of online advocacy and my subc and YouTube and all the, all this stuff. Like I'm trying really hard to fill that massive, massive chasm. Unfortunately, because you're right. Like when it comes to young people, unfortunately, the extremes really are quite dominant these days. It seems like that way to me. And look, I think it wasn't like.
- [44:17]
Tim Miller
I mean, when I was in college people had that damn Shepherd Fairy Hope poster up. It was just regular old normie Obama ism. You know, it was like we love the gays and we like brunch and.
- [44:27]
Cameron Caskey
Multiple cultural problem is the moderates in this country are in any other, you know, western country, right wing. Like, the reason that the, that everything's getting so radical is because young people want what, you know, Drew would consider the very moderate policy point of health care. And it's only the people farther and farther to the left who are advocating for something like that. You know, it's people in the American center left aren't offering things that are so obviously popular like that.
- [44:59]
Drew Pavlou
Listen, I, I think it's two things. I think one of it, I think one part of it and Cameron touched on this and I think he is correct to an extent. I think a big part of it is unfortunately like material conditions and not, not to go all too Marxist on everybody but I think, look, it is really hard because Cameron and me, our generation is. And this is something that's pretty common across the western world. Like you know, you see this in the uk, you see this in Australia, you see this in Canada, you see this in America. Our generation in the English speaking world and the western world we seem to be like the first generation that has a really big prospect of going backwards massively, economically and especially in Australia and Canada and UK it's probably less so of a problem in America but I know there are still places in America where there's really bad problems with housing shortages and housing scarcity. Like for example California and stuff like that. Like, like for example in Australia, in Australia it's crazy. Like the average median house price in Australia is in Sydney for example is $1.6 million. In American that's probably $1 million American, 1.1 million maybe. And look there have been, there have been studies like the average school leaver in Australia to save up just for a deposit on a house in Sydney it will take them 46 years. In my city of Brisbane it will take them 21 years. In the city of Melbourne, our second largest city, it will take them 21 years. We've got a terrible, terrible problem with housing shortages. And so just all this stuff combined it means the economic prospects of my generation, the Gen Z is way more limited than the older generation. I think the boomers were really pretty selfish. Like, like they had so many, so much economic opportunity and they've now you know, put in place policies like NIMBYism and made it so hard to build new housing and just, just all these policies that really over young people. So I think you're right Cameron. A big part of it is the actual genuine economic conditions are making it much harder for sort of like just normal conservatives or centrist people to exist. Like in Australia the Conservative Party just got smashed and there have been conservatives who've come out and they've just literally said well what are people, what are young people supposed to conserve? Like, like they can't even get a home. They can't even get on the property ladder if they can never get property. I mean remember Margaret Thatcher? Like her whole thing was she wanted to have a property owner owning democracy. I'm not necessarily endorsing Thatcher here. I think she did a lot of bad things too. But like if you look just, even in the 80s, like there was like a pretty widespread understanding by conservatives that people only be conservative if they actually have a stake in the economy, if they actually have the ability to own their own homes and stuff like that. You don't have that in Australia or in a lot of these countries for Gen Z people. And there was a, there was a crazy stat the other day from the Australian elections. The Liberal Party has essentially been completely kicked out of every single capital city in Australia. We've basically got a really heavily urbanized population Australia. I know it's funny because in America a lot of people think we ride to school and kangaroos and all this stuff, but like 80 of Australians, like 90.
- [47:40]
Tim Miller
Australia in the pouch.
- [47:41]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, in the pouch, exactly. But everybody basically, we've basically got like three, four big cities, like, and basically everybody lives there. Like it's like Brisbane, Australia, Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne on the east coast, plus Perth and Adelaide, Canberra. Like there's only a couple. We've only got a couple cities, right? And people live in these cities and it's really hard for people to get homes. And there was a stat the other day when the Liberals were basically in fact ejaculate from every. Destroyed from every major city. But 18%.
- [48:10]
Cameron Caskey
They're ejaculating in every city.
- [48:12]
Drew Pavlou
No, no, no.
- [48:13]
Tim Miller
But you know we've put a tariff on Aussie cow semen.
- [48:17]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.
- [48:18]
Tim Miller
We're putting. Well, we're looking into it. One of the Republican congressman here wants to put a tariff on Aussie cow semen. Very.
- [48:24]
Cameron Caskey
There goes my weekly protein intake.
- [48:27]
Drew Pavlou
So true, so true. We, we had a stat, the Liberals, our Conservatives in the major cities among like non boomers, they got like 18%, like that was their vote count. So they've been basically like, imagine that, right? Imagine a scenario where the Republicans were getting 18% in America. It's like full death for that party, right? So a huge part of it is if people can't get on the property ladder, if people can't, if people can't even have a stake in the society, in the economy, they won't ever have the chance to be conserved. People think that young people magically become more conservative as they age. It doesn't actually happen like that. It's really a function of like they get a home, they get a mortgage, they have a family, they then want to conserve that.
- [49:04]
Tim Miller
My Problem with this, Drew, I hear you. My problem with this is like the problem that you're laying out is calling for nice centrist, liberal Yimby ism. Yes, build houses in Canberra, that's what you're calling for. But instead the youth are saying, no, what we need is to expel all the brown people. Or what we really need is a communist society.
- [49:23]
Drew Pavlou
You're right. So I was going to get onto that into my second point. So I think that, I think the material conditions, the economic conditions are there. However, at the same time it's also, unfortunately, we're in an age where TikTok, which is literally functionally controlled by like an enemy state to them, to the west, and a lot of these social media platforms and Twitter is essentially controlled by somebody who is also hostile to the West, Elon Musk. Like these platforms that are turbocharging like really hardcore ideological extremism for young people. And so it does seem to me, and even in Australia it's a bit like this. Like the, the stuff that goes really viral on social media for young people. It's either like extreme far right guys who are literally calling for a full white Australia expelling all brown people. And then on the left it's like people who are like full Communists. They're praising Luigi Manjioni for going out and killing someone.
- [50:14]
Tim Miller
We've checked both boxes now.
- [50:15]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah.
- [50:16]
Cameron Caskey
BB And Luigi, baby. Friends of the show, the poor Aborigines.
- [50:20]
Tim Miller
Where are we going to send the Aborigines? Where are the, where are the Australian Nazis planning on sending the Aborigines?
- [50:25]
Drew Pavlou
New Zealand Question.
- [50:26]
Tim Miller
And Africa?
- [50:27]
Drew Pavlou
Well, no one knows. And, and I actually tried to find out.
- [50:30]
Tim Miller
Libya. I think Libya is accepting new, new refugee, new deportees.
- [50:35]
Drew Pavlou
Apparently it doesn't really work for them to have like a full expel these people thing when it's like people who've been in Australia for tens of thousands of years. But yeah, like, it's pretty scary these days. And I think, I think that's the thing, right? Like it's, it's, the economic conditions are terrible and then people are getting their minds destroyed. They're just getting one shot on TikTok. Like they're just getting completely one shot. Remember last year when Osama bin Laden's letter to America went viral on TikTok? Like, this is what's happening to young people. It's insane.
- [51:05]
Tim Miller
When I was in fifth grade, I did an assignment that was about everybody got a country and I got Australia. So I, I, I'm very dangerous. I have a very strong 5th grade knowledge of Australia. Okay, my last question for you before mailbag for both of you. Well, it's more of an announcement for Cameron, but it's a question. Cameron announced that he's going to Equinox. Now he's trying to twunk up and pretty soon he's gonna be wearing that jersey without a shirt underneath it. Because as a content man, as an influencer, you know, he's very mindful of the mogging and, you know, what is needed to be successful. I saw you on social media. You are also talking about how you're trying to get fit.
- [51:42]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah.
- [51:42]
Tim Miller
I'd like for you, both of you to talk about the unfair expectations on male beauty among, among content creators, actually.
- [51:48]
Drew Pavlou
So true. One thing that I, you know what? One thing that sucks. I hate Hasan Parker because he's like literally gone out there. Fully embraced the Houthis, fully embraced Hamas, all this stuff. But it's really hard because, like, he does like, mock people, unfortunately. And like, you know, you would have seen that New York Times article recently that came out that was just like the, the progressive mind and the MAGA body. Like, it's very hard, right? Like we, we have very unfair beauty expectations on, on the male influences. And Cameron, I'm glad that you're going to Equinox. That sounds good. You should definitely twink up. I, I've, I've lost 15 kilos over the past year. I mean, I, I, I had all these communists and fascists equally calling me fat online. I gained a little bit weight, they bullied me into submission. I lost the weight, which is good. I'm going to try go to gym, get fit. There's a, it's very important. We can't see the ground of aesthetics to the fascists because that gives them a big, powerful propaganda advantage, unfortunately.
- [52:44]
Cameron Caskey
Okay, couple things. Number one, the whole calling Hasan, who's a friend of mine, by the way, I love Hasan. The whole calling Hasan progressive mind in a maga body thing, Maga people on average are fatter than. So I don't know where the fuck New York Times thought of that, you know. But I was going to say in terms of my exercise, first of all, it's definitely for the influencer purposes and for the twunking up, which for those of you in our audience who don't know what a twunk is, it's a twink and a hunk. You know, I am attractive enough to make it, but I have a lot of room to grow and I don't have room to get much less attractive. Like, if I slump, I, you know, there's not a lot of latitude for me in that direction, so I really need to get on my shit. And also it's a mental health thing because exercise is very good for your mental health. And I have a lot of mental health issues, including with sleep and just with the way my brain regulates the chemicals in it. So while I am trying to get stronger specifically so I can hopefully make more money on the Internet, I also am excited to reap the benefits in terms of my mental health because that's something that's important to me, not only because it should be important to everybody, but also because mental health is a. Is a very big struggle of mine. Next thing I'm going to say is the male beauty standards thing is a crazy thing to say when women are held to infinitely higher beauty standards. Are you fucking joking? Oh my.
- [54:23]
Drew Pavlou
Worse. Yeah, women are really hard.
- [54:26]
Cameron Caskey
Women are expected to be so much more conventionally attractive than we are.
- [54:32]
Drew Pavlou
I.
- [54:33]
Cameron Caskey
Okay, this is, this is abstract and speculative and I don't give a fuck, dude.
- [54:40]
Tim Miller
Jeanine Pirro might be promoted to U.S. attorney.
- [54:44]
Cameron Caskey
Exactly as attractive as I am would be considered like a point and a half down on a scale of 1 to 10 than I am. And men are very, very often rewarded for aging in a way that women are punished. And it's a damn shame. I personally think my most attractive days are ahead and I'm excited for the FYPOD viewers to watch me become the twunkified marvel version of me.
- [55:12]
Drew Pavlou
For, for the sake of, for the sake of presenting a less woke option, I'm going to say that blokes actually have it way harder. And it's. It's a very tough situation that we are in. I think Tim and I both understand it.
- [55:22]
Tim Miller
I was joking. I baited both of you. I baited Cameron into getting mad and then I baited you into giving a very problematic anti woke position. Well, this. We'll leave it there for Drew. Well, you could add. Maybe you can answer this question with a comment.
- [55:40]
Drew Pavlou
The one reason I actually want to get like, buff is I want to be able to box both Jackson Hinkle and Hasan Piker. Like eventually.
- [55:48]
Tim Miller
That Jackson Hinkle kid fucking sucks. And I. And let me tell you, I will send you creatine or HGH or whatever is necessary for you to beat his ass.
- [55:57]
Drew Pavlou
You know what he did, man? He. He made a fake AI porn image of my mom and posted it on his Twitter to like 2 million people. It was, like, fully disgusting. Like, I. I have. Like, I. I want to suck.
- [56:08]
Tim Miller
Jackson Hinkle. You keep Drew's mom out of your mouth.
- [56:11]
Cameron Caskey
Let it be known, by the way, that whatever comments. And I don't align with everything Hasan Piker has said, whatever comments he's made that have been too inflammatory for all of you. Hasan Piker is not posting AI porn images of anybody's mom. So he did.
- [56:24]
Drew Pavlou
I gotta say, though, he. He said it was funny when Jackson Hinkle did it. He. He was laughing on the live stream. I've had a couple run ins with him. He was laughing on the live stream, and then somebody was like, did you.
- [56:34]
Tim Miller
Do anything about Hasan's mom? Did you insult Hasan's mom? Have you ever talked about Hasan's mom?
- [56:39]
Drew Pavlou
Never. Never. I did talk about his dad because his dad's a very wealthy guy from Turkey, but we go on.
- [56:44]
Tim Miller
Everybody, everybody. No, no. No pictures of anybody's mom. Okay? No, no, we're all better than that. Drew, we love. We honor your mother. Okay? Boomer mailbag. We have a segment where boomers mail. Email us. And we had a lot of great questions from Boomers, but I liked this one the best from Ethan, a millennial. My brother is 29, so an elder zoomer. He has no job, no kids, no girlfriend, living with our parents. He's lonely, disillusioned, addicted to Twitter, avoiding therapy, soaking in nihilism. Before the election, he asked for a conversation about the relative merits of Trump versus Kamala, calling himself a fence sitter. But when I sent him some mainstream sources, he lashed out, and we haven't talked since. My question is, how are we supposed to reach people like this to avoid letting them sink into nihilistic spiraling? Cameron, you first.
- [57:34]
Cameron Caskey
Two things. Number one, biggest red flag I see, there is no therapy. Everybody who's struggling with something like that should be going to therapy if they are able to afford it, and there are a lot of resources that can help them get it if they can't. Worth noting that I do not consider it a red flag to not have kids when you're 29. I consider it a bigger red flag to have kids when you're 29. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. If you're at a point in your life where you're financially stable enough to do that, and that's the life choice that you're interested in making, I encourage you to take a while to make that choice and not jump into it. But I heard a lot of fucking red flags there. Not having a kid at 29 was not one of them. That's fine. I don't plan on having children when I'm 29. Although if I do, I'll be an incredible father. As for the mainstream media thing, I hate to do a little bit of a circle jerk here, but that's why I think publications like the Bulwark are so great, is that it's. It's a lot of very positive values and outlooks, and some ones that I don't agree with, but I think it would be very hard for me to unilaterally agree with every single thing from an entire publication with a lot of different people who contribute. But, you know, publications like Bulwark and. And similar ones, Independent media is very important right now, and I think that people like him would be an awful lot more receptive to media that is not owned by a giant conglomerate that's very often owned by a Trump supporting billionaire.
- [59:02]
Tim Miller
Anyway, Drew, how do we reach incels?
- [59:05]
Drew Pavlou
Oh, dude, that's a really hard question. And I've. I've. I've struggled with that question as well. You know what's funny? Like, I think that a lot of young blokes, like, literally get way more, like, become way less radicalized when they actually settle down with a partner like. I know that.
- [59:22]
Tim Miller
Laid.
- [59:23]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah.
- [59:23]
Tim Miller
Ethan. By Ethan. Hold on, I'm gonna interrupt here. Ethan, buy your brother some sex work. I'm just saying. I know. Okay. We're just whispering that. But just like, his little birthday present. I think that could help. Anyway. Continue, Drew.
- [59:36]
Drew Pavlou
I don't know. That's the problem. I don't know if. I don't know if sex work is necessarily the right way.
- [59:40]
Tim Miller
Because you don't have to agree. That was just my advice.
- [59:43]
Drew Pavlou
No, I just. I wouldn't want him to be like, Taxi Driver, right? Like, you know how Taxi Driver.
- [59:49]
Tim Miller
I don't want to get him addicted. I just mean, like, a little one off.
- [59:51]
Drew Pavlou
Yeah, fair enough.
- [59:52]
Tim Miller
And all the, you know, full paying, full fare, all good, all chill.
- [59:56]
Drew Pavlou
It's hard. I. I think. I think especially young men, they get, like, pretty radicalized when they're, like, if they don't have economic opportunity and they don't have, like, like, good relationships in their life, like, it is, like, really toxic. And I just know for. In my own case, right, like, when I, like, basically stop doing my more risky protest stuff when, like, I got a girlfriend. I think people like you, you gotta. You gotta really try get this guy to avoid, like, just stewing in his room. You got to get him out into the world, meet new people, become friends with people. Just get him socializing, like I think that's a really big thing. I think people are just like shutting themselves off, becoming recluses, just getting poisoned mind poisoned from social media. It's really toxic. You got to try break that cycle. It's, it's very dangerous. And I do agree with you on the whole media thing. It's hard. Like if you just send someone like a CNN source, they're not going to read it, especially young people. I think that's why you need like independent media and like that's the thing, right? Like we need independent sort of like alternative online media. But people who are not fascist and not communist fill in that gap. Right? And that's why I do like the Bulwark. I was very excited.
- [61:02]
Tim Miller
Send them droop of lube.
- [61:03]
Drew Pavlou
Well, and the bulwark. And the bulwark.
- [61:05]
Tim Miller
Here you go, Ethan. You ready for this? The sex work idea? Let's just float that. But if not that, okay. You don't get mad at your brother over politics. I appreciate these guys suggestion. You can send them the Bulwark. If he doesn't like my content or Cameron's or Drew's, that's fine. Or anyone's. Go find your brother, find something that he likes, fly to see them, take him out, go to a fucking MMA fight, go hug him, go take him to an NBA game and just don't talk about this shit. Don't get mad over politics. That is your brother. Just like connect with that person and try to bring him to something where there are going to be a lot of other people that he can socialize with. Maybe some women could be there, invite him over, fly them out, get a plane ticket, use your miles. That's what you should do.
- [61:50]
Cameron Caskey
Ethan, Love, that brother is an assault rifle owning conservative. And I just sort of have this like, you know what, I don't care. You're not going to change my mind. I'm not going to change your mind. Let's talk about sports and the weather.
- [62:05]
Drew Pavlou
My parents love Trump. My parents love Trump. And I've just given up ever trying to have that discussion. Right? Like we had years of political debates. You just can't. You just have to first connect with people as your actual family members and your loved ones and your friends. Like that's the whole thing. That's why I like Tim's answer. Like the actual number one thing is like seeing people as human beings first.
- [62:22]
Tim Miller
Cameron, take us home.
- [62:24]
Cameron Caskey
I've got two. Takeaways from this episode. Number one, shout out the bulwark, man. I mean, hell yeah, we fucking rock. There's a great new article in some publication about how hard Tim is slaying right now. You should all go read it. Number two, I think it is worth noting, as we've had this very enlightening conversation about communism, that despite the fact that Drew has seemingly dedicated a pretty tremendous amount of his life to being a huge public Communism hater, if he ran on his moderate platform in the United States, people on the right and in the center left would call him a fucking communist. And with that, Drew, thank you so much for coming on the show this week. You have been amazing.
- [63:09]
Drew Pavlou
You know what?
- [63:10]
Tim Miller
My.
- [63:10]
Drew Pavlou
My brother lives in America. I've sometimes. I've sometimes had the really stupid thought bubble that maybe I should move to America, become a citizen, and in, like, 40 years, just, like, run.
- [63:20]
Cameron Caskey
Yeah, maybe not. Okay, thank you all for listening and tune back in Monday night.
- [63:32]
Tim Miller
Sam.