In this Gangland Wire episode, host Gary Jenkins sits down with RJ Roger, Host of No Excuses with Michael DiLeonardo podcast, to delve into his fascinating book, The Don: 36 Rules of the Bosses. In this book, RJ outlines 36 leadership rules derived from effective leaders’ behaviors in organized crime and corporate America. These rules, rooted in extensive historical research on the five New York mafia families, highlight universal power dynamics in all hierarchical structures, offering actionable insights for anyone striving to succeed—whether as a business executive or an everyday worker.

RJ challenges the romanticized portrayal of mob life, focusing instead on the stark realities of leadership within the mafia. Together, Gary and RJ draw parallels between the underworld and legitimate organizations. For example, RJ discusses the principle of “using skilled men to your benefit,” a lesson that applies across industries—including Gary’s experience in law enforcement. Both mafia bosses, police commanders, and corporate leaders face the challenge of navigating human dynamics, where the rules of engagement can make or break their success.

Throughout the conversation, RJ shares captivating stories of mob bosses and their relationships with underlings, shedding light on the nuances of leadership. The discussion touches on the importance of appearances, with RJ explaining how a leader’s presentation can shape perception and loyalty among followers. He emphasizes the delicate balance of being approachable and authoritative to maintain command—an insight that resonates across fields.

Please tune in to this thought-provoking episode to uncover the leadership lessons from the mafia that can inspire and guide us in our endeavors.

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Transcript
Speaker1:
[0:00] Well, hey, all you wiretappers out there. Good to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective and later sergeant. I’m back here with another guest, an author and a fellow mob podcaster, RJ Roger. Welcome, RJ.

Speaker0:
[0:17] Thank you for having me, Gary. And I mean that this is not just camera stuff. I always wanted to have a discussion with you. I remember reaching out to you on Twitter once over before I even started working with Michael. And I just, as a respecter of what you do, because you have an elegant, classy podcast and in what we do, it ain’t the norm. So I’m a major respecter.

Speaker1:
[0:41] Well thank you thank you i i kind of back i didn’t understand that twitter thing back there but i have some vague memory that i don’t know anyhow well finally we meet and we just had a nice little discussion about mutual mutual woes in the podcast industry and personal uh personal things to get to know each other a little bit and guys uh i assure you rj knows what he’s talking about and he’s a true gentleman and he has a great podcast you know uh you know i’m the one i have to take credit for this, RJ. I’m the one that got Mikey scars or Michael D. Leonardo on the air the very first time by happenstance and luck in a way I find out, but then I knew it was, it was just a lucky just somehow he just felt a certain way one day and he said, yeah, I’ll come on your podcast. And now RJ has Mikey scars or Michael D. Leonardo on his podcast regularly. So you want to check that podcast out. Uh, tell us just a little bit about your podcast, RJ, so guys can find it

Speaker0:
[1:40] But you are right i always get i always take the credit i brought michael scars out of the shadows yeah and i got that line from um coast of notion news that was like his headline he said rj roger brings michael de leonardo from the shadows and but the truth is you were the first guy to have to do a discussion with him i just so you took the

Speaker0:
[2:03] the ball up the field and i took it over the you.

Speaker1:
[2:06] Took it over the goal line

Speaker0:
[2:07] Um so as far as the show with michael and i i was a original was doing a solo mob podcast and i made a production i made a show on michael and it made its way to him through his son he liked it he reached out to me we became friends so that’s a fast forward very fast way of how we met and for the first several months We were just friends. I met him in person. I flew out to see him. We spent some time together. And we were kind of… Talking about some different things. And eventually we came together and made an agreement on working together. Took him a while to want to come out and do like a long form show. But, but again, it wasn’t our relationships, not a business relate. It wasn’t a business relationship. We were friends that started a show. We wasn’t business guys that became friends. We were friends first and then started the show. So we’re at, we’re on YouTube.

Speaker0:
[3:07] You can search Mikey Scars Find our show Our YouTube show We’re primarily on Patreon now Same name, Mikey Scars We do 8 shows a month on Patreon And it’s been We’ve done a lot of really good stuff We talk about a lot of things in his life And he goes back In my opinion, the last live and made, Major Five family figure that’s out there His name goes back to Sicily over 100 years He has a long, long history He’s three, four generations deep inside of Cosa Nostra. So it’s been fun to talk with a guy who has so much understanding of the life in a more nuanced way.

Speaker1:
[3:47] Yeah, he really does. And he’s articulate enough that he can really, as you say, a nuanced way, he can tell the story. And so, you know, now you’ve done this book here, The Don, 36 Rules of the Boss.

Speaker1:
[4:03] R.J. Roger. Now, is this your first book? I’m not sure. I can’t remember.

Speaker0:
[4:08] Yes, it’s my first official book. That’s a major release book, traditional published book, first one.

Speaker1:
[4:16] Didn’t you tell me that you also used some stuff from Michael in your book to help explain some of these rules of the boss? Because he’s got firsthand knowledge of that. That’s not like just reading it from somebody else who got it from somebody else. He’s got firsthand knowledge of working with a boss.

Speaker0:
[4:35] Now, the first, the 30, so what I had done, I wrote the 36 rules before I even met Michael, years and years before I met Michael. That was really, I had this theory on 36 rules of a mafia don, of a boss, just a boss, not a captain or underboss. I looked at, you know, the history of the American mob bosses in the five families. And I’ve researched their whole life, like the social behavior study, essentially. And I didn’t look at the mafia for what they claim to be. We’re honored society. We only kill our own. We don’t deal in drugs. We don’t touch a boss. You’re untouchable. You can’t kill without permission. All the stuff that they claim to be, that’s not these 36 rules because a lot of that is.

Speaker0:
[5:22] Fluff. It’s not real. So I looked at their actual behaviors. Like what did they actually do? How did they actually treat people? Were they truly an honored society? So I looked at their history and what I found is 36 common things that you could find among the leaders of the five families. So I wrote that theory. That theory that I completed was what I was taking around. Michael didn’t, I didn’t even know Michael yet, that theory. And then when I met my agent and producer, he said, you know, we need to do more storytelling and give more examples so readers can understand how these rules are applied. So we began to re-edit the book and re-craft the book. And that’s what you have here. And some of Michael’s quotes and a couple of things he said, I used in some of the historical narratives that I put in the book. But largely, I met Michael late down the line. I was done with the book, really. I put a couple of quotes and things in, but I met Michael when the book was already completed. Even this version of it.

Speaker1:
[6:26] You know, I’m looking at some of these rules, like use a skilled man ...

36 Rules of Mafia Bosses

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