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- [00:00]
A
We're going to be really open and honest today in this podcast.
- [00:04]
B
We went for probably four to five, six years in the wrong therapy, talk therapy. Nothing got better. And as he hit high school then is when he, he found alcohol. And he later said, that's when my brain turned off. And then he tried things more dangerous. And I don't think he really knew what he was taking. And it took his life. And I had been with him the day before and he was in his master's program for social work because he kept saying, if I can help other people, no one will go through what I did. I remember sitting on my front porch that next morning thinking I'm either not going to get out of bed or I got to do something. And I decided to do something. That's why I made the decision. We'll, we won't let other people go through this. So that's basically what Riley's wish is about.
- [01:17]
A
You've probably heard of ocd, but I bet you don't really know that it's a condition that impacts 1 in 40 adults in the United States. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is more than about just cleaning and organization. It causes intrusive, persistent, sticky feelings and thoughts and images that can seize on any topic from romantic relationships to illness to spirituality and really anything that matters to you. Now this can cause significant anxiety and guilt and shame and disgust and whatever uncomfortable emotion it may grab onto and it may make it hard to function in day to day life. If this sounds familiar, know that you're not alone and help is available. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist with 25 years of OCD treatment experience. So I know how scary these symptoms can be, but I also know that they can be managed with the right type of treatment. This is why I lead a team of top tier clinical experts at nocd. NOCD is an online platform offering specialized, accessible and convenient OCD treatment. My team and I have helped people take back their lives from OCD through specialized therapy that's covered by insurance. To learn more about OCD and effective treatment, head to nocd.com that's n o c d dot com. You deserve to live the life that you want to live and not the life that OCD wants you to live. And also, don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel so that you can stay up to date on our latest podcasts and webinars. Now, onto today's episode. Well, thanks for joining us once again for another episode of the get to Know OCD podcast. Everyone My name is Dr. Patrick McGrath, Chief Clinical Officer at NOCD, and it's an honor today to have my dear friend Margaret Sisson with. Now, Margaret and I go a long way back, and unfortunately, it comes out of a tragic story. But the fortunate part is how the world has changed and how we've attempted to change the world, I would say, Margaret, through the experience that you've gone through. So I'm excited to talk today to you about yourself, the foundation, Riley's Wish, and your son Riley, and what we look forward to in the future and what we continue to push for. So, Margaret, why don't you tell everybody a little bit about yourself.
- [03:39]
B
First of all, thank you, Patrick. Thank you for having me on this, and thank you for all that you do. You have been my advocate for a long, long time and helped make this awareness for people, because it wasn't there. So. My name is Margaret Sisson. I'm executive director of Riley's Wish, which was named after my son Riley, who, as Patrick said, tragically died of a accidental overdose, but struggled with OCD from probably the time he was 11 or 12. So. And I hope we talk. The OCD factor is so key in Riley's life, but also it's the substance use that ultimately took his life. So.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Thank you, Patrick.
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A
Of course. So how did. How did you and Riley figure out OCD was a part of his life? Going back to around, like you said, around 11 years old?
- [04:51]
B
It actually. It was actually kind of a quick. He had gone to a camp for three or four years, would say goodbye, no big deal, had a great time. And this one summer from he was turning 12, he kept asking me questions, you know, those reassurance questions, and I didn't really get. I said, riley, you'll be fine. You'd be fine. You know, don't worry. All the things that now I learned but didn't understand why, and so took him to the camp, and it was fairly local. And that night they called me and said, you know, we usually don't call parents if there's a separation or a anxiety about leaving, but he is so distraught that we felt like we needed to call you. And I said, well, put him on the phone. And I heard in his voice this panic that I'd never heard, and he begged me if I'd come pick him up. And, you know, not knowing, I was like, gosh, what do I do? Am I feeding into. And so I told him, if you're not, if you don't feel better tomorrow, then I will come get you. Camp's supposed to be fun and et cetera, et cetera. So in the morning, they call me and say that. Said that he was physically sick, throwing up. And so I went to pick him up, and that's kind of where it started. And he was starting sixth grade, which was a difference from the elementary. And. And when he started, he was. So he would throw up every morning. He started doing, you know, checking stuff. And of course I was reinsure. Everything's great. And I went to the school counselor saying, gosh, something's. Something's not right. And they were like, well, coming into middle school, it's a. You know, it's different. It's a challenge. And da, da, da. I just. Just that gut feeling there was like, no, this just didn't. Normal anxiety, you know, worrying. And Riley was, you know, a fun, outgoing kid, and it just didn't make sense. So, actually, my dad was a pediatrician, and I called him and he started asking me questions and said, you know, is there anything. You know, I said, well, gosh, he's. He is washing his hands. He gets, you know, this whole. And he said, I think it's ocd.
- [07:33]
A
Okay.
- [07:34]
B
So the problem was nobody really knew about it. And we went for probably four to five, six years in the wrong therapy, talk therapy. Nothing got better. And as he hit high school then is when he. He found alcohol. And he later said, that's when my brain turned off. And. And Riley was a. You know, he was salutatorian of his high school class. He was captain in the football. Just a really super outgoing kid. But gosh, was so. So tortured and struggled throughout, got accepted into college and freshman year, drinking was number one in college. And so he. He didn't drink to socialize. He drank to stop his brain and got really bad. So that's kind of how it started. And so there were just years of the wrong treatment. What's happening? Why can't he get better? And his senior year, I found a therapist way on the other side of Atlanta that did this exposure response, and she talked about it, and so we saw her for maybe three or four months, and I think got him enough to where he could go off to college, but unfortunately, I think the substance use had already started.
- [09:19]
A
Yeah. And you and I have spent so much time in our own discussions with each other about substance abuse is one of the five main safety behaviors, but probably the one least discussed and sadly just overlooked by so many people. And I've talked to you about how I could have gotten through graduate school without ever taking a substance abuse course, which I thought was totally wrong. And so I audited one because, you know, I. I come from a rather stereotypical Irish family and have a lot of people who have struggled with drinking on. On both sides of the family and know that it plays a major role in the lives of people, and it's just unfortunate that it keeps getting missed. And that's where the foundation comes, which we'll talk about in a little bit. But, you know, you. You found the therapy for ocd. Did you ever work on a therapy with Riley for the substance use?
- [10:35]
B
As time went on, he. He tried AA in college at Kennesaw. When he transferred to Kennesaw, they had a collegiate recovery program, which was. I mean, be honest, that he was able to finish college and. And has applied for his master's. And within that program, they had AA and they had community service, et cetera, et cetera. So that was a great program for him. But, you know, to be. I mean, I think back to it, we focused on the ocd. There was that shame part of the. Of the addiction, and so we didn't talk about. I knew it. I watched it. Horrified at some things that happened. But there was a shape and. And a shame that he felt even more so than the ocd, because he hated. And he kept saying, I hate what I've done to you all. I hate what. You know, it just. It made him feel horrible and. And looking back, gosh, I don't ever want a parent to deal with that. Substance use is, as you and I have talked, is so prevalent, and it's a disease that needs to be addressed, and people oftentimes ignore it. In the mental health section, where, as you and I have said, well, why wouldn't you want to find something that would stop your brain? I mean, that, to me, that just makes so much sense.
- [12:39]
A
Yeah. No blame on Riley for that. Right?
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B
Yeah. That's what he was desperate to. To stop his brain from those intrusive thoughts. He was, you know, they. As a classic checker. Well, he would. He would pull the doorknobs off his apartment. He would off his car because he was checking. Checking because if some. If it wasn't done right, something horrible would happen. And so that's how he lived his life.
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A
And he could do that. Riley was a big guy.
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B
Oh, he was a big guy. He was offensive lineman for football. And he. And, you know, I mean, and I've joked about it now, the. You know, his. His fear was that he would flood the house and Something horrible would happen. So the shower. He would continually. Till we broke all our shower heads and our shower. And the plumber would go come. And I'd say, God, it's just cheap material they're putting in here. But he was so strong. He could.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So it. Because he just wasn't right enough. So.
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A
Right. Yeah. And it's that classic example of. Now that you've broken the. The faucet, you actually do have a chance of flooding the house with water spraying all over the place. Right. So the. The classic. The thing that I fear the most is the thing I might be causing. Right.
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B
Yes. Yes.
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A
You know, I'm glad you did bring up, too. You know, being a parent, it's. It's got to be difficult in that situation. And then after losing Riley, you know, you have almost. I wonder about this double guilt, double shame kind of experience. Right. Number one, I see parents all the time who are afraid of, you know, what did I do to cause this? How did I play a role in this? What did I miss? And, you know, that. That guilt is so there for so many parents. And then after losing Riley, you know, what could I have done more? And again, you. If people are listening to this, you're like, oh, my gosh. Margaret and I have discussed things so many times. So we're going to be really open and honest today in this podcast, and.
- [14:55]
B
I'm going to say, and maybe that's how I had to resolve. I felt like I did everything I could that I knew I could do.
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A
Right.
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B
Were there more things that I didn't know? Yes, certainly. But I did everything that I could do, and I knew I couldn't live with him 24 7.
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A
Right.
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B
And, you know, so his. His death. And I guess maybe that's why I even started the foundation, because I didn't want another parent, don't want them to have that shame or guilt that I result. I didn't have the shame or guilt that he passed away because I knew I did everything I could. And now everything I could. There's so much more that I think we can do to help families.
- [15:59]
A
Yeah. And that's why you and I continue to appreciate the work we both do in that situation, because we're always pushing for that. I think a pivotal moment. And I'm wondering if you'll talk to everyone about this. But a pivotal moment in Riley's life was the Chicago conference.
- [16:24]
B
Yes. Yes.
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A
And I'm wondering if you could talk about the lead up to that. Yeah. As it comes up again.
- [16:32]
B
So that was Our. That was the first conference that Riley.
- [16:36]
A
Went to and, and the International OCD Foundation Conference for everybody listening.
- [16:42]
B
Yes, yes. And I had heard about this International OCD and I thought, go conference, maybe that. So I said, Riley, I'll. I'll take you. Would you go? And he said, do you think it would help? And I said, I don't know, but let's try. And so we got plane tickets and flew from Atlanta to Chicago. And I remember, and I've told you this, walking in to the Chicago hotel and the whole downstairs was a bar and I just. And Riley had been in recovery maybe two months. And I remember just having kind of a sick feeling, that scare. I was talking about anxiety. I kind of always felt that. So when there would become situations like that, I. I felt it. And sure enough, the first night, I think we got there on a Thursday and they were having different activities and I chose to go to. Somebody had a movie that they had made and I went to that and he was going to go to. I can't even remember what it was, but he didn't. And he. I'm not sure if he got his first drink down at the hotel bar, but he basically was missing. I couldn't find him. And I searched the streets of Chicago, walking from the hotel and finally found him about a block away and he was a mess. And I remember walking into the hotel and they were clean because it was like 3 o' clock in the morning. They were clean. It was just a clean. And as a parent, as with Riley, I was so it was like ocd. No, because then he got stuck and he couldn't get in. And you know, it was this. But I was horrified that he was so intoxicated. I didn't want anybody. I was embarrassed. I didn't want anybody to see that. So, you know, finally got him up to the rope and thought, got him in the bed and said, what am I going to do? I. I should we just catch the next flight home tomorrow.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I didn't. I went and found people. Michael Jennicke, Jeff Bell, these people that. And I just said, I don't know what to do. And. And nobody talks about addiction.
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A
Right? But.
- [19:29]
B
But here we are. And that's what. He's struggling and it's because of the ocd, he's using these. And so that's kind of how it started, that first conference. And then we went the next year, he led the first support group for OCD and substance. And then in la, he did the first panel on ocd. And substance use and. And every. You know, they were all saying, well, you got to be. You got to be clean for. For 90 days before you. You. We can even treat this OCD. And Riley kept saying, I don't think that's right. I don't. We can't do that. And they kept saying, yeah, but once you get 90 days, then you can go to a residential. And as you and I have talked, he got kicked out of two residentials because of the substance use, because that put him on a benzo. And that set his. They describe as an addiction. Craving.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So I tell that for parents to be very aware of your child, young adult, that if they have a substance use problem, and maybe not even. Maybe they're just trying to stop not the addiction, but know what your. Your child is taking and what doctors are giving them.
- [21:07]
A
So Riley goes to residentials, and the power of the addiction is still so strong at those places, isn't it?
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B
Yeah, well. And if you are put on a benzo and you are struggling. And he just. When he was in recovery, that's how he described it to me. That set that craving off where he said, my mind was gone. All I could think about was getting something to get me high so I could. I didn't feel those. Those. I didn't. My brain would slow down.
- [21:49]
A
And that's ultimately his thought. He was taking a Benzo was what took his life.
- [21:54]
B
Yep. Yep. Dr. Put him back on a Benzo. And that was what happened at the very end. And then he tried things more. More dangerous. And I don't think he really knew what he was taking and took his life. And I had been with him the day before, and he was in his master's program for social work because he kept saying, I think if I can help other people, no one will go through what I did. And so.
- [22:33]
A
Yeah, so then comes the foundation. Obviously, you have your period of grief and loss and everything, but you did something with it.
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B
Yeah. I remember sitting on my front porch that next morning thinking, I'm either not going to get out of bed or I got to do something. And I decided to do something. And I fortunately have such a supportive family that helped me quickly start this foundation. And I've told you, it was like, oh, now I have a foundation. You know, I didn't even know what to do. And. And you've been a huge help. And we've, you know, after. Gosh, now I guess it's nine. Nine years since I started it. And. And I. I want to do more. I Still think we, you know, and you and I talk. I feel like we're talking about. Because before we, no one ever talked about it. So now it's out there, we talk about it. But I want to take it the next step. And, and so to help families and help people that are suffering and if they go to residential, that they can treat both. It's not that, oh, you gotta wait 90 days. Because waiting 90 days is like an eternity. One day is. And so I hope that's our path going forward in the future. And educating therapists who see somebody and then know how to talk to a, to a client and, and that person doesn't feel shame in telling them that they struggle with an addiction because that's how they're going to help them.
- [24:40]
A
Even if it starts with two simple questions. Right. Have you ever used a substance, prescribed or not prescribed, more than you intended to, or had ill effects or consequences from it, or has anyone ever said to you that they were concerned about your use of certain substances? Right, those. Just those two questions, if clinicians could ask them, could open up a huge door into a discussion of potentially secret safety behavior that people are doing.
- [25:12]
B
And when you're saying that to say it's okay to tell me, don't you know? Because that Riley got to where he just would lie because he couldn't get the help with the OCD if he told them about the substance use. So we have to change that narrative that it's okay to talk about it. And, and we're going to help you. And I always say in our talks, it's just that simple thing of saying, even if I'm not an expert, I will help you find someone that can help you.
- [25:53]
A
Yeah. I mean, I, I would love to work in conjunction with experts in any other area that can assist any of the members that I'm working with. Right. Be it substance use or anything else. I know what I know and I know what I don't know. But I also know that the things I don't know are still contributing to the person that I'm working with. And therefore, why not create a wonderfully collaborative team to work together to support the person in all ways possible?
- [26:21]
B
Yeah, well, that's, I think in. And of course, with no, no cd, you all have such wonderful resources that I think we can. We. I think we can make it where therapists, doctors now know how to help people. I can help you now. This is what you can do. And parents, I mean, I talk to parents every week and they're that desperate Scared, what do I do? And I, from experience I can say this is what you need to do and this is who you need to talk to. And you know, from the OCD side. No, that's not the right therapist. This is what the kind of therapist you need to find and if they're struggling. Because I think we need to be talking earlier about kids nowadays. I mean, I'll be honest. I think Riley start. I think so Riley started experimenting in middle school and, and so by high school. So I think we got to be talking about that. And we need to educate parents if they don't. And, and not necessarily that that's what's going to happen with their child, but they've got to be educated so they know what to do if it does.
- [27:52]
A
Yeah. How many kids find the liquor cabinet? Right. And just discover something.
- [27:56]
B
Exactly. What Riley did. And he, when he was in recovery, said, I remember that I think he was 12 years, 11 or 12, and said, I just, I felt like, ah, all of a sudden things stopped. Why wouldn't he?
- [28:18]
A
Sure.
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B
So I think we have to. And, and it's scary for a parent, but the more you ignore it or don't pay attention, you know, your child could suffer. And I hate that. Hate that.
- [28:41]
A
And obviously OCD is not isolative. Right. It wasn't just Riley who suffered. You. Oh, whole family, husband, Riley's sister. Right. Every. Lots of things happened in all of that.
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B
Yes. Everybody was affected in many ways.
- [29:02]
A
Yeah. When people reach out to you, they've just got to feel lost. Right. They don't even know where to go and where to turn. What's your advice? What kind of things do you try to get people to focus on and work through so that they can get into the right treatment, the right help.
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B
Right. You know, and that, and that's something I try to talk to them and, and say a, support them and not judge them. And whether it be, you know, a finding out, have you seen a therapist? And what kind of therapy are they offering. And then I have a list of resources. You know, please go on my website, look at these resources. And then if, you know, I talk to parents that say, you know, my son is stuck in the basement and hadn't left and my daughter now is using because she does these repetition, you know, you hear as, as you do, you hear all kinds of tragic stories. And, and if it's residential and the, and the. Sometimes the problem is, well, I can't afford that, you know, the insurance piece of it. And, and I'm not an expert at that. But I think that needs to be a really important key for somebody getting treatment.
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A
Yeah.
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B
For. For therapy. And then residential. I mean, you know, we have to have those insurance companies that will. That will help families, because otherwise you can't, you know, you can't afford it.
- [31:13]
A
Right. On the flip side of those having done that on the residential side, there's always the sometimes, every day fight to get another day of treatment when you're dealing with that, too.
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B
I remember that one.
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A
Yeah. So I'm. Your. Your consulting with families is not just about treatment. It's. It's got to even be about how do you manage a managed care system. How do you. How do you talk to someone about getting the benefits that you've paid for to actually be there for you and.
- [31:46]
B
Right.
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A
All sorts of things.
- [31:47]
B
Right, right. And it might not be a 30 day, you know, and. And, you know, know, I go back to the Fogely center that you started. Wow. They were treating both at the same time. And I know many people that their lives were saved because of that.
- [32:11]
A
We have some good friends that came down there that we helped.
- [32:14]
B
Yep.
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A
And I hope they continue to do well.
- [32:19]
B
Yes. So I ask you, Patrick, what do you think we need to do next? I mean, we got the step where we've talked about it. Now it's, you know, it's more talked about. So what do we do next? Not to put you on the spot.
- [32:41]
A
You know what? I was thinking that. And I was thinking that, too, around the conference this year and talks and things. We've had several years now of expert panelists and clinicians. What I would like to try to do next year is change it up a little bit and get a panel of individuals to talk about their life experiences, having gone through OCD and substance use and coming out on the other side.
- [33:17]
B
Not just a mom. I mean, I always talk as a mom, but. But a. A lived experience.
- [33:24]
A
So I think if you and I work, that we could probably create a really cool panel that we could moderate and bring that to the experience.
- [33:33]
B
I would love that.
- [33:35]
A
It's part of the reason we're doing the get to Know OCD podcast as well, to talk to people with ocd. And we've had people on who've had OCD and substance use who described what depths the substance use brought their lives to. You know, one of the comedians we worked with, Christy, you know, she was just describing being in the hospital and. And she even showed a picture of herself, what she looked like, which. She looks nothing like that. Right. But where the depths of substance use will take you. And yes, you can be physically and.
- [34:12]
B
Mentally unrecognizable and things that someone that struggles will do that. That. And I always, you know, Riley would always have that shame. And I said, riley, I love you. I don't love the addiction, but I love you. And I know that. That I always told him, we got a plan, even if I didn't have one. I always said, we got a plan. And. But yeah, I think that's. Let's get it out there. Let people talk about it and let them. So it's not so taboo about struggling with addiction. And I think when. When people that actually have lived through it can talk about it, I think that would be super important, 100%.
- [35:07]
A
And so we'll keep pushing, obviously, with the foundation. You've done a lecture series. I wonder if you could tell people a little bit about what that's been like and how that's grown over time.
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B
Well, you were my first.
- [35:26]
A
Might have been there, maybe.
- [35:28]
B
Yeah, you were my first speaker. And. Yeah. Yes. I partner with a university here in Atlanta, and they have a collegiate recovery program, and it's the one that Riley attended. And still a lot of their staff are people that knew Riley. And. And we have a lecture series that we offer the continuing education and have speakers. And we focus on the addiction side, the substance use. But because of. Since Riley, who issues this, we also focus on the OCD part. And it's really neat to see this collegiate recovery program grow throughout the United States. When Riley started it, there were only three, and Atlanta was one of them, thank goodness. But they have grown throughout the United States at different colleges and so needed because, you know, students that are. If they're struggling with substance use, before they leave, they have somewhere that's a support and a community, or they get there. They've left their parents, they've left their home, they left everything that they know, and they start college. And as we both know, college is a great party place. And that's an easy way to get. Fall into that. And so if you have a support group and you have a community, I recommend to every parent, check a school out. If your child's going to that school, see if they have a collegiate recovery program, because it's huge. It can really save lives and help. And help a young person get through college, be successful, and have four years of support and community. It amazes me when I hear their stories of how they survived. So I'm a big. That's. That's why Riley swish always does this lecture series and partners with. With the college. And I'd be honest, I'd like to do it with other colleges, too, just because I think it's so important.
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A
Well, that was the other thing I was thinking. You were asking me earlier, what else could we do? I think that we have to take the show on the road. Right?
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B
I would. I agree. I agree. I think that's. We'll talk. We'll. We'll talk more, Patrick.
- [38:09]
A
Yeah, we can. We can do that. What is the legacy of Riley in your mind? And what do you want it to grow to be?
- [38:19]
B
Wow. That's a. That's a.
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A
It's not. It's just a small question mark.
- [38:24]
B
Just a small. To me, Riley was. Gosh, he was kind. He never judged people, but he's the one that taught me more empathy than I've ever learned because he was always so kind to people. And like, in high school, he was just friends with everybody and. And that's why I think he will always, in my mind, be that kind, sweet young man that struggled with a torturous disease and. And. And makes me sad that he's not here. And I oftentimes think why that's not fair. But that's. That's the way it is. So I. That's why I made the decision. We'll. We won't let other people go through this. So that's basically what Riley's wish is about.
- [39:35]
A
I'm glad you said the word fair. You know, I hear this all the time from people with OCD and in families almost, this notion that life is supposed to be fair. And you and I, in our personal experiences, I would say, have learned that's not the case whatsoever. And, And. And if you really hold on to that, it. It can really bite you in the butt a little bit. Right? That. That. That notion that it's supposed to be that way, that's.
- [40:06]
B
And so true. Because I think until I lost Riley, because I. I was angry and I was devastated, and that fairness piece was, you know, why. And. And I'll be honest. I mean, I'm always so. So excited to see somebody that's, you know, conquered this because I lived it and know how hard it is. But I always wonder, God, why. Why not Riley? Why didn't. And that's where life is not fair. And. And you can ponder on it. You can, but it's. It's. You got to decide to move on.
- [40:57]
A
Yeah.
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B
And as. As you know, I mean, you went through a. You watched your wife and and life is not always fair.
- [41:07]
A
Yeah, that stunk, you know.
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B
Yep, yep.
- [41:11]
A
Really terrible. But. Yep, we move on.
- [41:16]
B
And, and little by little, we help other people.
- [41:20]
A
Yeah.
- [41:21]
B
And I think by telling our story, people see, gosh, her son went through that and there's not the shame and my child's suffering with that. How can I get them help? And they're not so scared to talk about it. And, and I think that's, you know, that's a lot people are afraid. And nowadays with Internet, with. You don't want to say anything that might, you know, hurt you or your. Or your child. And we have to make a community that people feel comfortable and not scared to talk about it, because when they talk about it, they help others.
- [42:12]
A
You know, I want to ask you about that a little bit too, because I think in some ways we've worked on lifting some of the stigma that's associated with mental health issues. We've worked on some of the stigma that's associated with substance use. But when you've got both, it's like a double stigma. Isn't.
- [42:33]
B
Is. It is. You know, Patrick, I remember years ago when Riley started dealing maybe like, you know, first. And I remember, you know, Googling, OCD and, And addiction. And I remember reading if that is the case, if someone is struggling with both, sometimes the outcomes are never good. And I remember that kind of just was always in the back of my mind. And so I said, no, no, no, no, no, that's not going to happen. But I remember that. But I'm convinced now it doesn't have to be that way.
- [43:20]
A
Right. There's got to be people that just find you, randomly reach up, come up to you at a conference, just share their stories with you. How do you keep it together? Right. I mean, because obviously every one of those stories has to be a reminder of what you.
- [43:41]
B
Yeah, that's where that that's not fair thing comes in. But be honest, that if somebody will come up and, and tell me and talk to me and ask, that almost just warms my heart that, that, gosh, I think I can help them. I can get them to the right resources. I can help. And so that, you know, there's always going to be that. Not fair. That's always going to be there a little bit. It is, you know, it is. And, and as you know, that's just life. But I think once someone tells me their story or ask, what can I. How can I help my child or my husband or whatever, and I can offer resources and then I get emails and I get, oh, my child's doing great, and they just got accepted to college. And, you know, how about that? That's because I was able to give them to get to the right resources.
- [44:51]
A
Yeah. And it keeps a little bit of Riley in the world.
- [44:57]
B
Doesn't keeps Riley in the world. And I a lot of times say, hey, thanks, bud, because that was his wish, to help people. He always said, if I can figure this out, I think I can help people.
- [45:14]
A
Isn't it sometimes maybe the cruelty of things, but there are times that people are so focused on helping other people, but we don't always translate it into as well as how can we help ourselves.
- [45:31]
B
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I'm. You know, the advocacy piece, I think. And I'll go back to Michael Jennicke saying, there are people that are really sick and don't get better, then there are people that help others. And I can't even remember what book I wrote. But those who help others often get better and get healthier. And I think that's same with me. I think this foundation is a healing for me. If I can help others. You know, at the end of the day, to me, the big picture is us. What's your purpose? What do you did? I think this was going to be my purpose. Absolutely not.
- [46:26]
A
This was not in your life plan.
- [46:27]
B
I know that it was not in my life plan. And. But here we are. So what can I do to make a difference? And at the end of the day, to me, that's, you know, that's how we probably should live our lives, is how can we care for others, be kind, have empathy, and help others? And that sounds kind of cliche, but it does help. I mean, you're. You're doing the same thing, and it does help.
- [47:07]
A
There's one other area I want to go to, which is the flip side. Right. The. When we had the Foglia Family foundation residential treatment center, we were treating OCD and addictions at the same time. I would sometimes go down on the addiction wing and do some evaluations for people. And I remember meeting someone who was at 20 plus detox experiences. And I did an interview, and at the end of the interview, they looked at me and they said, you know, no one's ever asked me these questions about anxiety before. And I just. I thought, that's exactly why we're doing this.
- [47:53]
B
You're so right. In the addiction world.
- [47:55]
A
Yeah.
- [47:57]
B
They're so focused on the addiction part. But, you know, I don't know what the percent but I'm imagining it's very High. Of people that struggle with mental health and substance use.
- [48:09]
A
Yes.
- [48:09]
B
And if we could. The addiction part and the mental health part, if we. If those people that are helping relate to both, just like you say, I mean, how many detox. And no one asked, do you struggle with some anxiety? Do you struggle with any mental health?
- [48:30]
A
Yeah, they said, I was the first one to ever ask the question. And I just thought, that's wrong. Our system has failed in this situation. Right. Our system has just failed in this situation. If that's the case, that you could go this long without having that addressed. And, and I'll tell you, once we started some groups with them and they learned about anxiety and, and they were able to put two and two together and be like, oh, well, yeah, every time that I get this feeling I use because I hate that feeling. And we said, why don't we teach you how to deal with that feeling in a different way than using. And we did exposure and response prevention therapy and gradually built up their tolerance to that. I didn't. For the rest of the time that I was there, I never saw them back again. Now I can't say what happened after I left, but they'd been there, had been there and been there, and then suddenly they weren't back anymore. I. I'm proud of the work we've done in that area.
- [49:33]
B
And, and keep doing it because I think it's going to be. And we've talked. I mean, I think if. If more programs residential, that it was just common that they had there were. They treated OCD and they treated substance use. That shouldn't be a big. Because we know what. 45% of people struggle with substance use. So it shouldn't be, oh, my gosh, what. And I don't know how to make that. You know, even if you have one addiction substance use counselor on staff, and maybe they're familiar with OCD and substance use or just substance use, although they need to be educated about ocd. But how that could change somebody's life.
- [50:31]
A
Right. What's your final words you want to say to people who are listening out there?
- [50:41]
B
There is hope. There are good programs. There's good therapists out there. Find the right one. Make sure you use resources that you know are credible and there is help out there and don't feel ashamed or embarrassed. There's really nothing. It's a disease, whether it's substance use or mental health. And I think as time goes, we're going to make differences. And I think go back to Patrick, who you came along and you were the first one that said, oh my gosh, this is what we need to do. And I remember crying thinking, gosh, some somebody gets it. And so now we have lots of people that get it and want to do something and we just need to keep on keeping on and that, that advocacy work. And you know, yours is a, and Stephen Smith is a super supporter of Riley's wish and, and helping and we've got great people in the community that I think we can make a difference.
- [52:02]
A
If people want to find out about Riley's wish, where do they go?
- [52:06]
B
My website's www.rileyswish.com. my email's on there. I my phone number. If you ever call me, email me. And if I can't find you help, if I can't give you the right advice, I will make sure that I get you to a good, a good resource because it, it's out there and sometimes people don't really know. I mean I've had people go, what's the International OCD Foundation? I've never heard of that. So. And of course that's on my website. OCD Game Changers. There's so many important foundations, communities that can help people and open up a world that, that will get, get you or your child or your spouse, etc, help.
- [53:04]
A
Awesome. Well, Margaret, as always, a pleasure to spend some time with you.
- [53:09]
B
Thank you, Patrick. I appreciate you.
- [53:12]
A
You too. And thank all of you for watching the get to Know OCD podcast. If you're looking for help for OCD or related conditions, check us out@nocd.com that's nocd.com and if you like the get to Know OCD podcast and you want to see that content and other content we do at NOCD, subscribe to our NOCD YouTube channel. We'll see you again in the future. Thanks for listening.