How An OCD Diagnosis Changed Tell Williams' Life

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Get to Know OCD

Episode: How An OCD Diagnosis Changed Tell Williams' Life

Date: June 4, 2026
Host: Dr. Patrick McGrath (A)
Guest: Tell Williams (B), content creator, former preschool teacher, now therapist-in-training

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Episode Overview

This episode features content creator and therapist-in-training Tell Williams, exploring how a late-in-life OCD diagnosis transformed his self-understanding, relationships, and career. The conversation covers the nuances of OCD, its intersection with other diagnoses (ADHD, autism), challenges and rewards of therapy, advocacy work on social media, and the message of hope and connectedness through shared experience.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Tell’s Personal History With OCD

• Early childhood signs: Tell describes childhood behaviors linked to OCD: "Everything had to be even... All my Hot Wheels needed a friend." (03:00)
• First diagnosis: Diagnosed young with ADHD and autism, but not told by parents. OCD symptoms misunderstood and untreated for years.
• Rituals and consequences: Compelled to balance sensations (e.g., burning other hand because of the need for symmetry)—a turning point for his parents' concern. (02:10)
• Progression: OCD morphed from evenness and magical thinking into health anxieties and hypochondria, especially intensified during the COVID-19 pandemic.

“I think I had realized how much it affected my life growing up... Things I didn’t want to do or things I couldn’t do. I'd rather stay home because I'd be exhausted by all the rituals.” — Tell, 03:30

Navigating Multiple Diagnoses as an Adult

• Diagnostic journey: Adult therapy led to the rediscovery and clarification of ADHD and autism diagnoses, and eventually OCD, after deeper investigation. (04:19–05:40)
• Peeling back layers: Different symptoms attributed to separate diagnoses; the importance of recognizing intrusive thoughts as a key OCD feature.

“I wish I had that kind of OCD… It's a lot... Once we’re able to be like, that’s not a criteria of some of these other things, something else might be going on.” — Tell, 05:10

OCD’s Impact on Relationships & Daily Life

• Relationships: Discovery of the diagnoses helped his partnership dramatically, providing context for misunderstandings over tone or jokes. They developed trust-based communication strategies to manage social misreadings. (09:00)
• Safety behaviors: Tell candidly admits using all five—avoidance, reassurance, distraction, substance use, and compulsions. (11:08)

“It was a light bulb moment... He’s not being difficult for the sake of being difficult. He’s having trouble.” — Tell, 09:16

The Transformative Power of Therapy and ERP

• Gradual change: Description of how ERP (Exposure and Response Prevention) was introduced and initially felt overwhelming. (13:34)
• Learning to live with uncertainty: ERP forced Tell to confront fears (like eating outside) and open up life experiences, reinforcing the possibility of meaningful change without full symptom disappearance.

“Would I rather have question mark and it turn out well and be able to enjoy life than allow that not-sure question mark to dictate what I’m able to do?” — Tell, 14:26

Advocacy, Social Media, & Normalizing Mental Health

• Motivation to share: Wanting to be for others what he didn’t have growing up—someone honest about OCD in all its forms. (16:28)
• Public response: Facing both positive impact (people seeking therapy, feeling seen) and negative backlash ("just get over it" critiques). Has learned to focus energy on those open to empathy and change, rather than trying to convince skeptics. (18:27–20:43)

“If someone is scrolling and can see something I’m talking about and relate to that and not feel so alone and also then take the next step of getting help for it, like, I think that's huge for me.” — Tell, 16:28

Common Misconceptions & Stigma

• “A little OCD” myth: Tell and Dr. McGrath debunk the common misconception that OCD is a beneficial quirk, especially during pandemic hygiene. (24:24–25:50)

"You have it or you don't. There's no such thing as a little...[If] someone had a little, it would so horrifically affect their day-to-day life." — Tell, 24:43

Advice for Those Considering Therapy

• Try therapy, even if it means 'shopping around': Finding the right therapist is key; not all matches are immediate, but the outcome can be transformative. (45:01–46:14)

“If they've had a bad experience with therapy, shop around... Find someone that you jive with and that you have a good connection.” — Tell, 45:08

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Time | Speaker | Quote/Story | |---------|---------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:10 | Tell | “I put my hand on the grill... I had to put my other hand on it real quick.” (balancing pain due to compulsive need for symmetry)| | 09:16 | Tell | “He’s not being difficult for the sake of being difficult. He’s having trouble.” | | 14:26 | Tell | “Would I rather have question mark and it turn out well and be able to enjoy life than...have it dictate what I’m able to do.” | | 24:43 | Tell | “You have it or you don't. There's no such thing as a little [OCD].” | | 36:42 | Tell | “The absence of that constant worry… this is what people feel like. Like, their brains are quiet.” | | 43:57 | Dr. McGrath | “Live the life you want to live, not the life OCD wants you to live.” | | 45:08 | Tell | “If they've had a bad experience with therapy, shop around... Find someone you jive with.” |

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:00–02:00: Introduction to Tell and his early symptoms
• 02:10–03:59: Childhood behaviors and the misunderstanding of OCD
• 04:19–05:40: Diagnostic process and recognizing true OCD
• 07:01–08:57: Emotional relief and self-acceptance through diagnosis
• 09:00–11:05: Impact on relationships and daily functioning
• 13:34–15:27: Experiencing ERP therapy and first steps to change
• 16:10–18:17: Beginning advocacy on social media; motivations and early experiences
• 18:27–20:43: Coping with online misconceptions and public resistance
• 24:24–25:50: Addressing the “little OCD” myth, especially in pandemic context
• 33:48–36:42: Reflections on childhood—the need for early recognition and varied OCD subtypes
• 40:27–44:01: Personal losses, healing, and what true progress looks like
• 45:01–46:14: Final advice on therapy and hope for future listeners

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Lessons & Takeaways

• OCD is deeply misunderstood and multifaceted; symptoms go far beyond neatness or order.
• Diagnosis can reshape self-understanding, relationships, and career paths, often bringing relief and empowerment after years of confusion or shame.
• Therapy—especially ERP—offers significant improvement, enabling sufferers to reclaim activities and build resilience, though it is uncomfortable and progress is nonlinear.
• Advocacy and open dialogue (especially by people with lived experience) support others, lessen isolation, and push back against stigma and reductive stereotypes.
• There is no “little bit of OCD” and popular language often minimizes a serious, often debilitating condition.
• “Find a therapist you jive with.” Not all therapy is created equal, and the right match can change lives.

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Where to Find Tell Williams

• TikTok, Instagram, Facebook: @MrWilliamsPreK

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Closing Note

Tell’s story is a testament to the real, lived complexity of OCD, the power of self-advocacy, the importance of nuanced diagnosis, and the life-changing hope and healing available through proper therapy and community.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the get to Know OCD podcast. If you're looking for help for OCD or related conditions, check us out by our sponsor, NOCD. OCD is available across all 50 states and we're also in Canada, the UK and Australia, and we take insurance. There's plenty of our therapists who are well trained and ready to meet with you to help you with OCD and related conditions today on the Get To Know OCD podcast. Tell Williams. Hi, Tel. How are you?

[B]

I'm great. How are you?

[A]

Well, I'm thrilled to have you here today. You are a content creator. You talk a lot about OCD and just living with it and things that people can do. So just tell a little bit about yourself to everybody first and then we're going to get into a bunch of stuff.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you kind of nailed it, right? You did it. I was a preschool teacher for, like 10 plus years, and then I decided I wanted to go back to school to become a social worker and therapist. And so I, I did that. And yeah, I know I live in the Philly suburbs and I, I'm just, we're, we're chugging along here. You know, there's, there's a lot going on and therapy's great.

[A]

Fantastic. Well, I would agree. Therapy is great. So you started identifying maybe some signs, symptoms, not knowing it was probably OCD when you were younger. But wonder if you could take us through your history a little bit about what gets you to decide, yeah, maybe I should be a therapist and help people with this instead of, I'm just going to live with this. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Move on to this next one.

[B]

Right. So, so when I was younger, like, little, little, I was diagnosed with ADHD and autism, but my parents never told me. Right. So I had no idea. And something that my parents have noticed is that everything had to be very even. Right? So, and I'm talking, like, down to, like, if I had Hot Wheels, I probably had hundreds of Hot Wheels. They were like 30 cents at the time, I think. And if someone bought me one for my birthday, I refused to take it because they all needed a friend they had to match, right? And so it, it was to the point where I think my parents thought, oh, that's, it's, that's cute, you know? But then what they had noticed is that feelings on both sides of my body had to be the exact same. If not, I would think something horrible is going to happen to, like, my siblings. And it kind of got to the breaking point when I was younger. I was pulling with Hot Wheels on the grill that had like a, a cover and I was. And so wheel stick clicking and I was like, why are they doing that? I put my hand on the girl, didn't know it was on, and it burned my hand. And before my parents could get to me, they ran because it was going to happen. I had to put my other hand on it real quick. Yeah, that's when they said, oh, this, this is maybe something that's a little concerning. And so I went to a therapist when I was really, really young and they really didn't do any kind of huge help with this. Right. I carried this along for a very, very long time. That evenness then went into kind of hypochondria. If I, if I didn't wash my hands, this could happen. If I touched this, this could happen. And it was really during COVID that I got more of that help for that and started doing like, you know, actual therapy towards this. I, I think I had realized that, like, how, how much it affected my life growing up. Right. There were opportunities, there were things I didn't want to do or things I couldn't do. Right. That I kind of like would rather stay home because I'd be exhausting to have to all these rituals before I could finally leave the house. I didn't want other people to experience that. There's so the multitude of things that I was like, oh, this is, this, this is awful. Like I, I want to be able to go experience the world and not have this anxiety sitting on my chest.

[A]

Of course, yeah. You've added that there are other diagnoses that have been a part of your life. Autism, adhd. How do you see the combination of all of those, from a child to evolving to where you are as an adult of understanding where some things fall within various categories?

[B]

Yeah, I, I think something that was really helpful was that as an adult, I was re diagnosed. I say re diagnosed because I was

[A]

like, oh, this is because you didn't know. Right.

[B]

It was, at first it was the adhd and once I started therapy and some medication, then it was like, oh, but there's still kind of some, some things that maybe we can't explain through adhd. And that was when I was reevaluated and was diagnosed with autism. And then even then it was like, okay, but like, that's not a criteria of autism. Some of these things. And that's when they were like, let's look at ocd. I was like, oh, no, I, I went to graduate School, I don't have ocd. And then it was that moment, that light bulb moment. Like, wait, no, that's exactly what OCD is. You're having a lot of intrusive thoughts that are making you uncomfortable. And so I think that sometimes it can get a little conflated. Right. As we're looking at this, this stuff, and it kind of, we kind of have to peel back that onion and see, like, what is, what is going on here. I think intrusive thought is something we really don't talk enough about with ocd. I think it's like, oh, but pencils have to be lined up or something. I'm like, I wish I had that kind of ocd. Like, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot. And I think that once we're able to sit there and be like, oh, hey, like, that's not a criteria of some of these other things. Something else might be. Be going on. Why don't we jump into this and see and see maybe if, if this might be helpful.

[A]

Sure. And isn't it funny that the people who straighten pencils say, I wish I had intrusive bots.

[B]

Isn't it? It's, it's always that other side. Right? Because there's so times I'm like, oh, that'd be, that would be great. And then I, you know, I'm talking with friends who do have kind of the OCD of. I always call it the perfectionism or cleanliness, and it looks just exhausting. And I just want to, like, give them a hug, like, oh, we can, let's leave that. And just. And it's okay. It's a mess. And it's, it's, it is difficult. It's. You always want the other side of. What is it? The grass is always greener.

[A]

The grass is always greener.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, when I had an Iop, the new person always said to someone next to them, I wish I had that kind of ocd. When someone else was speaking and they'd all, everyone would just be like, yeah, we said that too. You know, that was just the standard, standard kind of experience.

[B]

100%.

[A]

So a lot of this for you is really kind of new then, right? I mean, this. You're still kind of on an exploration of where do you fit in in the world in. And not only in a change in career, but in a discovering of diagnoses. And how do you navigate the world with these diagnoses? Boy, it's of it's a later life kind of change, but huge change for you, isn't it?

[B]

It's, it's massive. I think that give yourself that permission of, of realizing that. I just thought that everyone was better at being exhausted than I was or overwhelmed than I was. And then I realized that, like, people don't have, Typically, people don't have tantrums over the way that material fits on their skin or a way it feels. But why do I, you know, want to scream and feel like I'm going to spontaneously combust if the jeans are too starch? Right. But everyone else is fine. Like, why can't I? Like, what am I doing wrong? And then realizing, like, I'm not doing anything wrong. This just doesn't feel good to me. And so I think it was in some ways a moment of relief of being like, oh, I haven't answered this, or like, I'm not lifing wrong. I just life different. And I think it, it definitely just completely changed my mindset to so much, so much because I was like, oh, I, I can thrive in so many eras and I can ask for support, which is such a huge thing of like, oh, this is, this comes easier to everyone else. It doesn't come easier to me. It's okay to ask for support in this. You don't have to just sit there and, like, trudge through it in the trenches. Right? All of that was fantastic. And I think understanding OCD even more, it's, it's weird. One of those things, like, you know, from school and then when I was like, why can't I apply what I know from school to myself? Of, like, it's not linear, right? Like, I have had what I call, like, ocd, fuller X work. I'm doing fantastic. And then something sets it off again. I think, okay, I, I know the tools this time. And if I feel like I'm not able to use those tools, I have a fantastic therapist I can go to and be like, hey, I need a little bit of support on this. I think I've kind of going through, like, a, a deep dive down my ocd.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you said in one of your tiktoks too, you talked about having a partner. So has, has this discovery helped your relationship and, and how you love and live with somebody?

[B]

Yes, I, I, it was a light bulb moment for him and his therapist when I got the ADHD and especially the autism diagnosis that, like, oh, he's not being difficult for the sake of being difficult. He's having, he's having trouble. And that I, I'm, I Was struck a lot of arguments with my spouse because I'm like, why are you yelling at me? And he'd be like, what? And it's because I'm really, really, really bad with tone or with a joke or, you know, which is funny because I tell jokes all the time. But when other people tell me, I'm like, were they serious? Are they mad at me? And so I think it was my autism. A lot of it is with social interactions and conversation. And so I think that was a kind of a very huge moment for me, my spouse, to be like, me and my husband, earth. And they were being like, oh, this. This might be why you might blow up in a conversation, because you might have misinterpreted my tone when I said this. And so now we've started something where it's like, I'll be, why are you upset with me? I'm not. We used a tone. I didn't use a tone. I heard a tone. Okay. But I didn't use one. And so, like, and it. It kind of putting that trust in someone that, like, if he did use a tone and meant to use a tone, he will now tell me, which is kind of a funny way to argue of like, did you use a tone with me? And he's like, yes, I did. I'm glad that you. That you heard it. And other times, big, no, I did not. And that trust of, like, I didn't. I. I don't have the ability in this moment to hear this tone correctly. And I. And I trust my partner enough to be like, he's telling me that he didn't use one. And so I can deescalate what I was feeling in that moment.

[A]

And that's so great, too, because without knowing that he could be giving you so much reassurance, which would just then lead you to do that more and more of checking with him if there was a tone.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I talk a lot with people about safety behaviors and how much they play a role in life. And to me, there's five. There's avoidance, reassurance seeking, distraction, substance use, and compulsions. Are you three out of five? Four out of five? Five out of five.

[B]

Let's know. I'm a little. Five out of five.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And. And it's. It's interesting once people really find the diagnosis and see it, that. What it looks at and at your life and thinking, that explains so much of why I've been the way I've been. I get it now. Right?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Like, I love now love eating outside. If we go to, like, a restaurant or something like that. And before I would be like, hit up the stomach, avoided at all costs, and couldn't figure out why. And it wasn't until we had a little whoopsie incident that I was like, oh, it's because of. I'm kind of that little voice in the back that's like, bugs are gonna be all over your food. You can't go do it. And I didn't realize how many things. We have a beautiful patio at our house, and my husband be like, you want to eat outside? I'm like, no, why would I want to do that?

[A]

And it didn't.

[B]

Why would we enjoy this patio? Like, that's. That's crazy. That. Why would we do it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I couldn't figure it out. And I kind of. It took a kind of, like, I call flare up of being like, oh, tell that. That, that. Like, how sad is that for you that you don't get to do that? Let's address this instead of avoid.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just. Boy, I. I can only imagine that. Yeah. It's. It opens up worlds for people in ways that things that they thought were impossible finally become possible. Correct.

[B]

Huge. Yeah. Like. And then I think that can be used as a kind of a reminder or reassuring yourself of, like, I don't want to take steps back. I love doing this. And so when you're feeling that, it kind of makes you a bit more proactive to be like, okay, is it, um. Do I go into my bag of resources? Do I call my therapist? Like, I. I don't want to take steps backwards. I really enjoy this thing. I enjoy eating outside. I don't want to. I don't want to stop doing that because, you know, that little voice in the back of my head's like, ooh, that those intrusive thoughts are coming back, you know?

[A]

And that really leads into doing exposure and response prevention therapy, where you have to face those fears instead of get safety behaviors for those. So I'm as. I. I don't want to make an assumption, but. But a slight one. I'm assuming the first time you heard a therapist say something about a year, you're like, say what? Or something like that.

[B]

A thousand percent. When. When my therapist was like, so we're gonna try erp. I'm like, okay, does it hurt? Like, what is that? Yeah. It kind of rocked my world the first time I heard about exposure and response therapy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was it like to incorporate that response prevention, that key ingredient in erp, being living with doubt and uncertainty instead of finding it everywhere you possibly can.

[B]

Ever so uncomfortable. Right. It was, it was hard, I'm not going to lie. And I think that the second that I realized like I could go out and do these things, that became easier. Right. Of like, I don't know. But would I rather have question mark and it turn out well and be able to enjoy life than to allow that not, I'm not sure question mark of sit there and dictate what I'm able to do. Right. Because it did. I, it, it wasn't just going outside for dinner. It was, it was like having an ice cream cone or being, being out with my nieces and nephews at their ball game. Right. Like, like all of those things. And so it really prevented me from doing a lot of fun things. And I think that am I okay with sitting with that uncertainty? And there were, at the beginning especially, I was like. And then it got to me. We're like, I, I, I, I want to go do these things. And so I, I've got to. Something's got to give, you know?

[A]

Yeah. And I, I'm sure the first time you show up at like a baseball game, people are like, what, what, what are you doing? You,

[B]

what are you eating at a baseball game?

[A]

Yeah, but, but how nice to open your world up to different experiences.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you go to grad school and you learn these things. You're getting therapy. You don't have to go on TikTok and open up your world to everybody, but you did. And so that's what I'm really interested in kind of, you know, how we're connected because we, we want that education out there. We want people talking about it. Not enough people do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You didn't have to, but you did. Why? And what have you gotten out of that experience? And what has it meant to you in your life to be now so out and about, about. Here's, here's a condition, but there's, there's hope, there's help, and you don't have to be alone.

[B]

I, I think a huge part of that was, is even in a graduate program not fully being able to recognize ocd, my ocd myself. And I thought, why? Why is that? And then I thought, OCD is again, it takes so many different forms. And I think that I wish so much when I was younger I could have seen or heard someone talk about it and I would have not felt so isolated or frustrate myself or, you know, multitude of things. And so I Think one a part of it was like if someone is, you know, scrolling and can see something I'm talking about and, and relate to that and not feel so alone and also then take the next step of getting help for it. Like, I think that's huge for me. I also think it's, it's, it's a thing of like the education aspect of it. Right. Like it is something that's not, I don't think, frequently talked about. And, and, and it's hard to. Right. You can't possibly cover all the ways, you know, in a video that it might be, but I think that it starts asking questions. I think. Not that I think I'm the be all, end all, but when people see a influencer that is willing to talk about it, I think it kind of gives them permission and the autonomy. Oh, I can, I can do that maybe, like if, especially if that person is a therapist, you know that the amount of clients I have that, like therapists have oc. You, you therapists go see therapist. I hope so. I hope every therapist is a therapist. And, and yeah, I don't think that we should be ashamed of having that. I think, I think if anything it allows our, our clients and, and, you know, other people seeking therapy. Big. Oh, like these therapists are quite literally just like us. They just have letters behind their name that makes it so they can talk to us.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And that license they paid a lot of money for.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

There's likely pros and cons, Right. When, whenever people put things out about certain subtypes of ocd, there can be backlash. How have you dealt with some people who just say, well, just get over it or stop thinking about it. What the hell? Why don't you just knock it off or something?

[B]

Yeah, I, I think before it would have, I would have tried profusely to explain myself. Right. I think that people who are that unempathetic, I don't know that there, anything I could say in that moment would change their mind. I think that there are more kind people and there are more people that relate to it or understand it, that there of course have been people that just get over it. There's not bugs in your food. Right, right. And I'm like, I can't get over it. You know, when I had that, the. It was actually this time last year where I kind of was like, I, oh my God, I can't, I, I, I can't eat anymore because there's bugs in my food. And my husband's like, please, you We've done so much work. Don't. Don't do this. Right. And it's. I'm, I. If we had a choice, we would not choose ocd. I don't know a single person that would.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so if it was a choice, no one would choose that. Right. And so I think it's. I'm not going to be able to convince that person, but there's a lot of people out there that are there to support and can either relate or empathize.

[A]

And that's great because of course, some people with OCD only focus on the fact that what if somebody thinks I'm faking it or thinks that I'm lying and I've got to convince them. And, and there's. There's no way to convince everybody, is there?

[B]

No. And I think it takes learning to do that. Right. Like it. Because I still, I think we all, as people just want to be understood. And it really sucks that not everyone else is going to be able to understand us. And we could be using that energy resource and time on people who want to learn and to understand and to empathize and. Yeah, it's terrifying to think, like, oh, someone's going to be thinking I'm lying or that, you know, a multitude of things, and then it's like, well, you know, it's fine. They don't pay my bills, you know. Yeah.

[A]

They don't have to watch your tiktoks. Right.

[B]

Right. They don't have to watch my tiktoks.

[A]

There are people who will come across them and will see them. What's in the back of your mind as you're making these? What do you hope somebody really starts to learn or understand about this condition that they may not know about?

[B]

I, I. A huge part of that is, like you said, all the subtypes of it. Right. I think that when we're talking about it. Right. Very early on, I, I talked on my TikTok, on the kind of like, hyper fixation germs and my, my I kid. You know, since I was like five or six, my worst fear in life has been a pandemic. So Covid was fun and so. Oh, my gosh. And it was exposure there before I knew what exposure therapy was. Right. Like, I was like, the world has to continue. And I, it was so. It was so hard. And it wasn't proper exposure therapy, obviously. It was, like, terrifying. And when I would talk about people so empathetic was like, oh, my gosh, I get it. Because they could relate to that. Fear of everyone. We were all scared, you know, and so I think that was an easier one. But when I started talking about, you know, when I was a kid watching Lost Boys and the food turned into worms and maggots, and that, like, scared me to death. From that day forward, I was always scared. And I'm Puerto Rican. I eat rice all the time. Like, I was terrified if I turned my head that I wouldn't realize there were bugs in it or that a fly would land in it. And, yeah, it was constant. And I think that, like, when I vocalized that and people were like, what? That's not ocd. I'm like, that. Hey, guys, that is ocd. Oh, yeah, Yeah. I think the intrusive thoughts were something I, at one point was like, you know, someone asked, what is an intrusive thought? Like, it's a.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's something that's making you so wildly uncomfortable to have it. And I think people don't always talk about that because they're like, well, I feel guilty for thinking that. I'm like, that's exactly what intrusive thought is. If you loved it or made you feel good, it wouldn't be intrusive.

[A]

Not intrusive. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So I think I. 1. When I'm making a video, I. I think it comes from a place of, like, I just want people to understand. Not only me, hopefully, but so many people that I. The same thing, or this is how it shows up to me. And then now there's a resource of people in the comments talking about the way it manifests for them, and people like, oh, my gosh, me too. And they're talking to someone else, and I. I love. That becomes like a moment of connection for people. I love hearing about people that are in the com store. Like, we actually met because we comment on the same thing of yours. And I'm like, I love hearing that. Right. So it becomes like a resource of. Of people being like, oh, I. I relate to what Barbara said about it, that it has. You know, her OC doesn't manifest this way, but it manifests in that way that. That makes me feel good to know that people are feeling seen, because I think that a lot of the times we're not.

[A]

How do you. I. I asked this to a lot of guests. How do you handle the. Oh, but if I could just have a little ocd, right?

[B]

If I could just have a little. I don't know. It's. I wish. I don't know. I. I like the. The. It's it's kind of like when people go ahead, we're gonna say, I'll give

[A]

you my context for that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

During. I'm gonna go back to what you said during the pandemic. I was watching a newscast and two newscasters were saying to each other, wouldn't it be great if we all had a little ocd? That way we could get through the pandemic. I wanted to throw my shoe at. Yeah.

[B]

Because my favorite thing is like, you have it or you don't. There's no such thing as a little.

[A]

Yes, there's.

[B]

And that if someone had a little, it would so horrifically affect their day to day life. Right. And that, like, good hygiene does not equate to ocd. Right. What you're asking is, I wish we all would take care of each other and mask up and wash hands and to be like, I wish we all had OCD's. You know, the people who I. My husband had to force me to go out on a walk outside, the minute they were like, you cannot get Covid from being out, just being outside. He was like, tell you you have to see the world is not ended. The sky has not fallen. And to hear something like, don't we all wish we had a little bit of that? I don't. I truly and sincere do not wish that my. On my worst enemy, because that was such a dark and horrible time of being afraid to leave the couch. Right? Like, no, I don't wish. I don't wish. You know, days of no sleep. Because you're scrolling. Just constantly trying to look to see what percentage mortality rate this, you know, new virus is. Right. That's not a way to. To live. And so what they meant to say is, wish everyone washed their hands. And I agree, I wish they did. But like, a little OCD is not. Is not the way to. To do it, babes. Like,

[A]

yeah, but even, even the pandemic is. Is a fascinating thing to look at because I'm probably one of the only people that enjoyed the pandemic. And, and it's. It's true. My wife had cancer. She was dying at that point. And we were already living like it was a pandemic because we were already living in a way that you got, you know, we got to protect. Her immune system's down. All these chemo and radiations and all these things. So when the pandemic hit, I thought, oh, everyone's living like we are now, you know, so just. There's always another view of something.

[B]

Always.

[A]

And I think for the people who don't get ocd, they think their view is the only way to look at the world. And you should just be able to stop thinking something, and I hope through the work you do and the work that this podcast does is to challenge that a bit and to open people's eyes up some just to say, oh, maybe. Maybe my way of looking at it isn't the only way that it is. Right. Maybe there's something else.

[B]

No, I. I think that's. That. That's a great way of. Of kind of talking about it. Right. Like, you and your wife had just been really hard, you know, and. And other people had to do that only because of a pandemic.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And while they don't unders. Well, they will never have that experience that you guys did. There's a small fraction that can empathize now of that. And so I think that's kind of one of those key things of, like, I'm sure not everyone fears every single moment that they eat that there's gonna be a bug in their food. But if you've ever found a bug in your food, you're probably disgusted. You might have, like, thrown up. You might have thrown it away. Right. You've never. You know, you. You don't have to worry about, like, if the food is. If you're getting food for delivery, that you have to sit there by the door, because if it touches the ground and it's warm out in the summer, you just don't know. You know what I mean? So sometimes we can sit there and be like, I have not experienced this, but I've experienced a small fraction of that, and I can't imagine what that looks like at a magnitude blown up, and it takes over your life. Right.

[A]

I think you're helping people to walk in someone else's shoes for a while.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is so commendable to me that you do that and allow for others to see. And I'm sure you. It's got to be rewarding, Right. When you get a message from someone who says, I never knew, or I've started therapy now because you inspired me, what has that part of this been like for you? And how does that feel? It's got to be amazing.

[B]

Yeah. That part of it is what makes it worth the. The negative. Right. I think that part of it, if someone reaching out and saying, like, I. I started therapy, or I saw these signs in my children and. And got them help, or I was super big on, like, nothing's gonna help me with this. Or like therapy's too woo, woo, woo or whatever and them taking those steps. And I think that like, again, that's what makes it easier to do. It makes it the rewarding part of it because there's a lot of, listen, there's a lot of downside of putting that out there, but it does, it's that as cheese as it might sound like, that makes it worthwhile. Even if, like one person, you know, a month is like, this was helpful because again, until you've experienced, and I hope people don't have to, that, like when you are on the path of getting help and feeling better and healing, I. If one person, you know, gets to experience that, I'm. I've done my job.

[A]

It's a beautiful thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was it difficult to leave teaching and decide to go to grad school and change, change your life around? I mean, that, that had to be a heck of a decision for you, I'm. I'm assuming.

[B]

Yeah. It, that that's kind of where a lot of the, like autism came in. Because I, I teach, that's what I do. And my husband, I was like, you know, all of these, the kids for the most part were, were really being supported emotionally, socially, health wise, right, by the teachers and school and parents. And I was looking around at my colleagues that were just floundering and I thought, someone's got to help us. That's crazy. Like, someone should step up and, and do something. My husband's like, why don't you go to go back to school? I'm like, no, because I'm a teacher. And he's like, you can change careers. Like you can, you can, you can change. And I was like that, you can't. Like, oh my gosh, wait a minute, Nothing's, nothing's permanent. I could go do this, right? Yeah, it really was. I was like, okay. It was really hard. I had to transition myself. I don't know what I thought, why. I thought it'd be a good idea to go to school full time and teach full time. Um, so I did that for a brief moment and I thought, that's a nice little transition phase. And then it was kind of a decision made for me. I couldn't continue on with the program. I had to do internships and clinicals and all that. And so like, I can't teach because that's what I have to be doing. During that time. It, it was, it was difficult. I think the way I looked at it too was that like, for years I did a lot of, a lot of social emotional learning with kids, with preschoolers. And now I get to see ways that social emotional learning benefits people when they're adults and are coming to therapy. And you can see ways that help them and if they did not get social emotional learning skills the way it, you know, hindered some of their life. And so in that sense of, of kind of looking at too like the healing of your inner child and such as, you know, again, woo, woo. As that is, it's a huge part of some of our traumas. And so being able to sit there and have the knowledge of like, what we're like as, you know, children and to very much know that for years it was hard, but there's still ways to put my foot in the door of like, I do like crisis counseling and stuff when things happen and the schools need me, that I'm able to be like, okay, I can still play and be a big kid every once in a while, but it's, it's hard. That's a hard transition.

[A]

Yeah. And you can also go back and teachers will give you a lot of respect because they, they know, you know, what they're going through.

[B]

That is a huge. A lot of times when I'm doing professional developments or schools ask me to come and do, you know, a training for a specific school or a teacher, you know, something happens in the classroom and, you know, they call me to, to come and talk to the students. It feels good because there's so many times I remember being in the classroom and someone coming, oh, you should try this, this and this. And I'm like, when did you teach? You didn't. Cool. I don't think that will work, you know, so sometimes it's, it's nice to have that background and be like, I get it and I get it. I, I also taught alongside you during COVID Like, it's, it's hard. It does feel good to be able to be like, I'm, I'm coming in here with empathy as well of what you're doing, because that's a very thankless job.

[A]

Yeah. Covid forced a lot of things on people they weren't ready for. And I'm assuming OCD in your life has also forced a lot of things on you that you just weren't prepared for. And how do you see now post therapy? You know, look, looking back on old self, is there, is there advice you would have given yourself back then, or are there things that you think were now kind of obvious that you or others just didn't notice or see as Much. And yeah, you'd be like, oh yeah. And because that to me leads into what I think you said important is so important earlier why we have to teach about various subtypes of ocd.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I, I really wish that rather they would call me like the worry war and stuff or I don't know if, if you or anyone listening has watched the Rugrats, but I was always called Chucky because I was always like terrified that this guy. I was falling. Right. I was Chicken Little. And I wish rather than being like what a worry war? Or just like kind of like passed off as like being silly or just, or even sometimes like I, Roy, my parents would get frustrated. You know, I understand that like a, a child and then a teenager and then a 20 something year old constantly worry about the their and their loved one's mortality isn't typical. Right? Like, like we, we might be like, oh, I would be so devastated if this is, this happened. But to have it completely rule your world all the time. If, if my sisters when I was younger missed the bus, you know, because they were farting around inside, I would immediately scream and cry. And I'm talking middle school people, I'm not talking elementary school. I would hysterically cry on the bus like, oh my God, they're lost forever. They died. Nope. And, and it's because when you know, I touched that sticky stuff in fourth period and I didn't wash my hands, I knew this would happen. I knew this would. And like that's, that's, that's, that's not fun. And I wish that someone would have earlier been like, hey, this, this isn't something we would typically see. Let's, let's maybe investigate this a bit. I wish that maybe I would have been a little bit more vocal being like, hey, this doesn't feel good. This feels very uncomfortable. Can someone help me with this? You know, you know, hindsight and all that, but it is, it's, it's. I wish that someone would have sat down and been like this, this looks uncomfortable. This, this looks sad, this looks scary. This looks exhausting. Instead of kind of just either roll their eyes or you know, try to distract me.

[A]

Yeah. Your platform hopefully can be a surrogate for some people in that kind of experience that maybe you point out something in their life that other people aren't pointing out to them.

[B]

Absolutely right. Like it. Because I think especially when you're kind of subtype is something that we all would be devastated if someone we love passed away. Right. How often is that intrusive thought coming into your head, though, you know, like, is it something that. Is it. Do you have a ritualistic thing that comes with it or magical kind of thinking with it? And I think sometimes we might. Like I did tell ourselves, like, oh, but, like, everyone kind of has these, you know, worries or. Or such. And when we sit there and be like, no, a worry is very different than it is on your mind constantly. And then I. I'm not gonna lie to people. The absence of that constant worry, it's like, this is what people feel like. Like their brains are quiet. Like, that's what they mean by your brain can be quiet. That. That OCD talk isn't constantly there.

[A]

I think that's mind blowing for people with OCD when they realize that not everybody thinks the way they think.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Yes. I was like, what do you. What do you mean? What do you mean when your sisters go around the block in their bicycles that you don't think like that? Well, they fell off the face of the earth. Now they were kidnapped. Like. Yeah. It's so strange.

[A]

Yeah. I had a cousin who went to the eye doctor, and he said, read the third line. And she said, on the left one or the right one? And there was only one. She'd had double vision her entire life and didn't know.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Epidural. Like, wait, what?

[A]

Yeah, basically. So a small surgery, and it took care of it, but for 12 years, she'd seen double and nobody knew.

[B]

That is so wild.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A moment.

[A]

Everybody did. Yeah.

[B]

And to be able to have a surgery that corrects that, to be like, oh, for 12 years, I wouldn't have had to worry about seeing double.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

And ERP is not as quick as that surgery was, but it can be as effective as that surgery. Right. You could. You know, and. And I think what I've liked also about what you've said is you really do bring home the point that there's not a cure for ocd. You still have intrusive thoughts and. And images and urges. Right. Y. Obsessions. Go to all of those things. You've learned to live with them, though, instead of having to fight them all.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's the. You know, when people come in and talk about, like, I just. I just. I want to. I want to heal. Healing you can do. I want to be cured. I. I can't do that, unfortunately. You know, I wish I could. I can tell you it gets tremendously better and that it's not absolute, constant. And and that what our job is through ERP and you know, other types of therapy is that we're going to get you to a place, though, where you can be successful in all that you want to do. And that if those thoughts or images creep up, you have the tools of, of what to do there on after. Right. You can trust yourself that you, you'll, you'll know it. And like I said, it's not linear. Like, there are things sometimes that can feel like they set you back a little bit, but then to remind yourself, like, no, no, no, I, I'm so capable of this and I've done it before and I've got this. It's. Yeah, it's, it's, it's not gonna, it's, it's, it's not, it's not a cure. Right. It really isn't. But it, it is something that dramatically has changed my life. And I know so many of my clients, it's dramatically changed theirs as well. And I think that is, I just want that change. I just want that. You know, I often tell people, if you know something is a hundred percent horrific and we can get it down to 40% horrific, would you be, nope, it's not a hundred and they're not. Take the 40%. Well then maybe let's take that 40%, because some days it'll be 20, you know, like, sometimes it'll be great. I think that's how I took it. It's not going to go away completely. Right. But man, is it going to get tremendously better.

[A]

Yeah. And you, I'm assuming, are doing things now you never thought you could do in your life.

[B]

Never, never. Like, I don't, I don't want to take Debbie down the moment. One of the things that I hadn't even realized was healing. This was there was a little bit of ERP like I said, when I was like in my 20 somethings and I, my mom passed away very suddenly and very unexpectedly of, of I literally a cold. She got a cold and was fine and then went septic and was not. And it was one of my worst fears, of course.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I often remember though, and looking back at being like I was, I was not okay, but I was fine. I, I, I, but it, it, in a sense, my world ended because I lost my mom, but I wasn't afraid of the world. And that was a moment of like, it took years to realize the healing of, of OCD that like, it didn't even occur to me to curl up in a ball and be terrified to leave the house. Right. It was just that, that realization of, like, oh, that what a healing moment. It doesn't mean that again, during a pandemic or if I have a scratch in my throat or something, that some of those thoughts of, like, oh, this is what could be, you know, you, you got the bubonic plague. Like, it doesn't mean that that doesn't happen. But that could have set me back in infinite. Right. And so that was a moment of healing, of like, wow, like, again, it's not that those fears aren't there. They are. But that had I not done healing in some, and you know, some of the, of the erp, then, you know, before that, I don't, I don't know what that would have looked like, you know, I really don't.

[A]

Well, yeah. Sorry about your mom, but great for you for healing.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

On the flip side, almost 20 years ago, I did an ERP with someone I was working with who thought, if I have a negative thought about my parents, they'll die by the end of the day. And so we started with wishing for them to stub their toes, and we built from there. And then the final one, I did an ERP with, with this person, and I wrote on a card which is still in my wallet today, I hope my parents die tonight. And that was almost 20 years ago. And one day that card is going to work. Tell. It hasn't yet. But, but one day, one day that card is going to work. Right? It's.

[B]

Isn't that wild? Yeah. And, and I think too, it's like what I thought. And that's a horrible thing to think. It's like, yeah, because we don't wish that. But that doesn't mean that you saying it or writing it down is. It's going to happen.

[A]

Yeah. You, you've probably had people say to you, oh, but you're going to manifest something. Right?

[B]

No, you're like, especially, you're not going to manifest that. Right. Because like, like you said, one day your parents are going to pass away,

[A]

and whether I wrote it on a card or not.

[B]

Right. No, and, and I think that's. I, I, I, that is such an example, too, of being able to sit there and be like, you could live every day only having positive thoughts of your parents. And in a day that you have all positive thoughts of your parents, that could be the day they pass away, which means it had nothing to do with your ocd. And also, truly and honestly, what a buffer in a way that we can't really get to know or at least as interpersonal with our parents, because, hey, there's been times I've argued with my parents or my friends or my husband, and it brought us closer. And to be afraid that if you were to say anything negative or have a negative thought or be able to be like, hey, that didn't. That comment you made sucked. And that was really mean of you to, to be afraid to voice stuff like that. Grievances we have with a loved one. That's not a way to live either, right?

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I always say, live the life you want to live, not the life OCD wants you to live.

[B]

A thousand percent. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

And don't sit next to your tombstone for the rest of your life wondering when you're going to be under it. Just live your life, because one day you will be under it, so you might as well enjoy it.

[B]

Until then, no apps. I think that was a moment of like, of being like, well, the worst thing in the world happened. Your mother did pass away. I don't want to, to be afraid of living and, and miss all these amazing opportunities because she missed a whole lot. She died very young. And so I think that a moment of like, I don't.

[A]

It.

[B]

There's, there's really horrific and, and sad things that can happen that could also kind of propel us of like, I, I want to heal. I, I, I, I. This isn't ocd. Is not worth it. Just to be able to hold on to it, to be like, well, but it's uncomfortable to start some of these therapies. Yes, it totally is. And I would rather be uncomfortable than I'm gonna be uncomfortable either way. I'm uncomfortable with ocd. I'd rather be uncomfortable and, and move forward than uncomfortable and be stagnant.

[A]

You know, there's someone out there now debating, should I start therapy before we go? What is your advice to them?

[B]

Always. Yes. Always. Yes. And, and here's the thing I will say sometimes this happens at therapy. I always tell clients, I don't have an ego when it comes to being a therapist. I'm not everyone's cup of tea. I would be more hurt if you didn't tell me that and you stuck through a few sessions and you think all therapy is bad, and maybe I was just a bad therapist for you. And so I encourage people that if they've had a bad experience with therapy, shop around. If you have the ability to do that for a therapist, reach out. You know, there's these amazing things, like what you all are doing where it's like you might have a reach. They didn't know that was just local to like the therapist downtown in, in your city. Right. That like find someone that, that, that you jive with and that has, you have a good connection. I, I very, actually I came very seldom. Everyone that I've talked to that's come into my office, whether I, you know, refer them out, if, if I'm not a match for them, if they match with a therapist that they enjoy, they love therapy and benefit from it.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tell. Thank you so much for being here today. This was a great conversation. I really enjoyed our time.

[B]

Yeah, thank you. This, this was super fun. I'm, I'm glad that you had me.

[A]

Where can people find you if they want to see some of your stuff? Where would they go?

[B]

Good. TikTok and Instagram. It's Mr. Williams pre K. I think it's probably the same on Facebook. So yeah, just look up at Mr. Williams pre K. Awesome.

[A]

Well, all the best to you. Keep putting out great stuff. We really appreciate it and we really appreciate you being here and, you know, spreading the word that OCD is treatable.

[B]

Absolutely. Thank you for having me and thank

[A]

all of you for watching the get to Know OCD podcast. If you like it, you can subscribe to the NOCD YouTube channel. That's where you could see all sorts of stuff, including the get to Know OCD podcast, my Wednesday night webinars that we record, and other great educational material. If you're looking for help for OCD or related conditions, we help you with that at NOCD. Check us [e-mail] that's NOCD.com and remember, be better to yourself than your OCD ever has been. We'll see you again soon.