Manifestation, Positive Thinking, Law of Attraction — Why They Don’t Help OCD

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Get to Know OCD

Episode Title: Manifestation, Positive Thinking, Law of Attraction — Why They Don’t Help OCD
Host: Dr. Patrick McGrath (Chief Clinical Officer, NOCD)
Guest: Jacqueline
Release Date: June 19, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode tackles the pitfalls of using manifestation, positive thinking, and the Law of Attraction as strategies to manage OCD. Dr. Patrick McGrath and returning guest Jacqueline discuss why these popular ideas—often promoted on social media—are not only unhelpful but can be actively harmful for people with OCD. Jacqueline shares her personal journey through New Age thought systems and how evidence-based treatment, particularly Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP), proved to be the real turning point in her recovery.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Seduction and Harm of Manifestation Teachings

• Jacqueline’s Experience: She describes how teachings like the Law of Attraction promise easy, magical solutions, appealing to those desperate for relief.
  • “The way in which these teachings are packaged is very seductive. You know, it’s very easy. You just need to think positive thoughts and imagine yourself already feeling or living in this way that you want to live.” (03:52)
• OCD Complications: These teachings are especially dangerous for people with OCD, leading to obsessive and compulsive magical thinking:
  • “They're actually quite harmful for people like me with OCD that are susceptible to magical thinking, becoming obsessive and compulsive.” (05:07)

2. A Brief History and Pseudoscientific Roots of the Law of Attraction

• Origins: The Law of Attraction has roots in 19th-century spiritualism, Calvinist Protestantism, and American New Thought; popularized anew by works like The Secret.
  • “The Law of Attraction...has its roots in 19th-century at the intersection of Calvinist Protestantism and the New Thought movement and American Spiritualism...Post-Great Depression, when people were really suffering, this idea tied spiritual deficiency to success.” (05:51)
• Scientific Misappropriation: Modern proponents cherry-pick quantum physics to sound credible but misrepresent actual science.
  • “Using quantum jargon to justify magical thinking is a misuse of, of science.” (07:30)

3. The Role of Selective Attention, Confirmation Bias, and the Placebo Effect

• Why Manifestation Seems to ‘Work’: Dr. McGrath explains that people notice “signs” only when they’re primed to look for them—classic confirmation bias.
  • “We’re very good at finding things...if it’s my birthday on the clock, then I notice it. It really seems to mean something at that point.” (08:28)
• Placebo & Coincidence: Jacqueline and Patrick discuss human tendencies to find meaning and patterns, even when events are random.
  • “Just because that happened with the tree one time does not imply that the cause was your mind.” (25:02)

4. Why ‘Positive Thinking’ Is Especially Risky for OCD

• The Pressure to Control Thoughts: The Law of Attraction can amplify OCD suffering by convincing individuals their thoughts cause harm or outcomes.
  • “If they have harm thoughts or contamination thoughts...and then think, hearing, oh my God, my thoughts create my reality. I’m definitely going to be a murderer and rapist for sure. 100% no.” (21:43)
• Thought-Action Fusion: The hosts reference the OCD concept where having a thought is wrongly assumed to be morally equivalent to an action.
  • “If I think a bad thought, it’s as bad as doing a bad action...We call that thought action fusion.” (31:15)

5. The Pitfalls and Dangers of Alternative ‘Treatments’

• Personal Toll: Jacqueline shares how chasing New Age cures led her to harmful extremes, cleanses, and wasted time and money, while her OCD symptoms worsened.
  • “I went to the most extreme lengths...subscribed to stuff that was, is probably dangerous.” (18:14)
• Failures of Magical Solutions: Dr. McGrath’s anecdotes (e.g., wishing on a pencil drop or the lottery) illustrate the lack of evidence behind these practices.
  • “I get the audience to either stare at the ceiling and wish for it to collapse upon us...it still never has done.” (10:20)

6. ERP and Evidence-Based Therapy: The True Path to Recovery

• Turning Point: Jacqueline realized through ERP and critical thinking that magical thinking was actually part of her OCD—not the solution.
  • “...when I started to recognize that my magical thinking was in fact OCD...that’s totally OCD. And then it propelled me on this debunking...changed my life.” (27:47)
• ERP’s Effectiveness: Both guests emphasize that facing fears through evidence-based treatment is hard but transformative.
  • “With ERP, we are facing the demon. We are doing the unthinkable and the unimaginable and letting the demon in.” (37:55, 38:14)

7. Advice for Listeners Trapped by Magical Thinking

• Critical Thinking & Skepticism: Jacqueline’s top advice is to research, question sources, and experiment with separating self-identity from one’s thoughts.
  • “Critical thinking, skepticism, research. Do your research. Just start to unpack and check the sources...small steps to individuating from thought itself.” (32:37)
• Psychoeducation: Learning about the neurobiology of OCD helps demystify the condition and reduce shame.
  • “Psychoeducation, talking about the neuroanatomy and of OCD and what’s going wrong with our corticostriatal thalamic loop can be really helpful...” (34:44)

8. Why Evidence Still Matters

• The Allure of the ‘Ancient’: Dr. McGrath and Jacqueline warn against equating age or mystique with validity, advocating for modern science and skepticism.
  • “If I fall down the stairs and I break my arm, I’m going to find a specialist who knows how to do some work and not just hope it gets better.” (43:32)
• Advocacy for Evidence: The episode closes with a passionate argument for science and evidence-based treatment as the best path for OCD recovery.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On relentless pressure to “cure” thoughts:
  Dr. McGrath: “Any therapy or teaching that is going to say to you ‘we have a cure for this and you will never have these thoughts again’—I’m very, very, very, very, very, very wary of.” (00:27, 20:42)
• On magical thinking as a manifestation of OCD:
  Jacqueline: “I was essentially living inside of a magical fantasy for so long, living by these OCD rules of these little small rituals that I didn’t even think were OCD.” (29:06)
• On guilt and moral pressure:
  Jacqueline: “There’s always this deep, you know, haunting OCD voice of I’m essentially broken and something’s wrong with me and no matter what I do, I’m never going to be pure enough...” (16:54)
• On facing fears through ERP:
  Dr. McGrath: “With ERP, we are facing the demon. We are doing the unthinkable and the unimaginable and letting the demon in.” (38:14)
• On the value of science over mysticism:
  Dr. McGrath: “May we never give up on evidence and science. That’s my...” (42:38)
• On recovery through evidence-based treatment:
  Jacqueline: “It works. It actually works. And I’m sitting here having accomplished the educational goals that I wanted to and finishing graduate school and finishing two novels that I worked on because I was able to finally get the help that I needed.” (46:53)

---

Timestamps of Important Segments

• Introduction to topic and risks of manifestation for OCD: 00:00–05:19
• History & seduction of Law of Attraction: 05:51–08:28
• Confirmation bias, placebo effect, and “signs” from the universe: 08:28–11:10
• Personal harms caused by magical thinking & alternative treatments: 13:03–19:15
• Analysis of why positive thinking and manifestation are dangerous for OCD: 19:07–22:45
• The distinction between thoughts and actions, and thought-action fusion: 22:45–25:02; 31:15–31:40
• Recovering through ERP and critical thinking: 27:12–30:02
• Advice for breaking free from magical thinking cycles: 32:37–34:44
• Why understanding OCD matters more than explaining its origin: 34:44–42:38
• Closing: advocacy for evidence-based care and success stories: 43:32–47:41

---

Tone & Language

The conversation is both compassionate and candid, blending humor (such as Dr. McGrath’s playful anecdotes) with serious discussion and personal testimony. Both speakers stay science-oriented but are empathetic toward the vulnerability and suffering that draw people toward magical solutions. The tone is warm, frank, and supportive—encouraging hope through evidence-based care.

---

In short:
This episode debunks the myth that positive thinking, manifestation, or Law of Attraction cures OCD—showing instead how they can worsen symptoms. Only by embracing evidence-based treatments like ERP, along with critical thinking and psychoeducation, can people with OCD achieve real and lasting recovery.

---

Transcript

[A]

People with OCD when, when they see clips on social media of influencers saying, you know, your thoughts create your reality manifest, stay positive and you'll attract life of your dreams. And that is really harmful. And I'm doing these practices at an obsessive and intensive way, but it's still, there's still something wrong, wrong with me.

[B]

Any therapy or teaching that is going to say to you we have a cure for this and you will never have these thoughts again. I'm very, very, very, very, very, very wary of, maybe we've leaned a little too hard on always trying to explain things. And sometimes what I say to people is I don't know why you have the thoughts or the images or urges that you have, but I know that I can use some evidence based treatment to help you learn to live with it and thrive.

[C]

You've probably heard of ocd, but you don't know that OCD isn't really just about cleaning an organization. It's actually debilitating. It's a condition that causes intrusive, persistent and really sticky feelings and thoughts that can seize on any topic from romantic relationships to illness to spirituality and really anything that matters to you. This can really cause significant anxiety and guilt and shame and discomfort and can make it hard to function in day to day life. If this sounds familiar, know that you're not alone. In fact, 1 in 40 people in the US suffer from obsessive Compulsive Disorder, but help is available. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist with 25 years of OCD treatment experience. So I know that these scary symptoms can be overwhelming, but I also know that they can be managed with the right type of treatment. I lead a team of top tier clinical experts at NOCD who are trained in the effective treatment for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. NOCD is an online platform offering specialized, accessible and convenient OCD treatment. My team and I have helped people take back their lives from OCD through evidence based therapies that are covered by insurance. To learn more about OCD and to start effective treatment, head to nocd.com that's nocd.com youm deserve to live the life you want to live and not the life that OCD wants you to live. And don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel so you can stay up to date on our latest podcasts and webinars. Now onto today's episode.

[B]

Welcome back to the get to Know OCD podcast. I'm Dr. Patrick McGrath, the chief clinical officer for NOCD. Jacqueline's back for part two today. We talked about it at the end. And so here she is. Jacqueline, how are you? Good to see you again. Hi.

[A]

Great to see you. Excited. I'm really excited about this topic. This is really important one to delve into.

[B]

We talk all the time about evidence based treatments and the importance of receiving evidence based care for ocd. You are a prime example of not receiving evidence based care for OCD until you finally did. And once you did what it did to change your life. And I wanted to talk today with you about what it was like to go through all sorts of other treatments that purported, oh, we know what to do for ocd. We can cure ocd. We could heal you. You'll never have an intrusive thought again for the rest of your life for these types of things and what your life is like now having done erp. So I'm wondering, could you start off by just telling us your motivation in wanting to talk about this? I think that that's really important. Where are you coming from?

[A]

Right. So my personal journey with believing and subscribing to New Age thought movement, law of attraction, manifestation courses and systems and following these teachers was, was propelled by, indeed my, my desire to want to feel better. And the way in which these teachings are packaged is very seductive. You know, it's very easy. You just need to think positive thoughts and imagine yourself already feeling or living in this way that you want to live. And magically, by the cosmic vending machine, you will receive, you know, peace, abundance, wellness, health. And a lot of people don't really understand the, the history of where these teachings came from. And really when you start to unravel them, understanding that they're absolutely not evidence based based and not grounded in science and reason and logic and rationality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're, you know, actually quite harmful for people like me with OCD that are susceptible to magical thinking, become becoming obsessive and compulsive.

[B]

And you've done a lot of research in this and we'll put some links in the. Underneath this for anyone to take a look at that, you know, kind of lead us to. But I'm wondering, can you give us a kind of a synopsis of some of your research of the history of some of these movements and why they might be so alluring for somebody with OCD who just wants to be convinced that they don't have to worry about a certain thought or image or urge and how seductive it might be to be told that, oh yeah, you can get there.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So Law of Attraction showed up in a. In a text by this Russian occultist, Helena BLAVATSKY, the late 1800s. And it's, you know, essentially packaged today as New Age philosophy. But its roots are in 19th century at the intersection of Calvinist Protestantism and the New Thought movement and American Spiritualism. So, so post Great Depression, when people were really suffering Protestant work ethic and Calvinist ideals kind of became this idea where your success is tied to a sort of spiritual deficiency. So people like Phineas Quimby and I'll put all the links again to this research. So these kind of mesmerists and spiritualists were using this language and these ideas to help people kind of start to feel like if they're subscribing to these ideas, they're essentially going to get rich after being, you know, often people having nothing post Great Depression. And that's when think and grow rich and these kind of books started to become popularized. And then at the resurgence with the Rhonda Byrne Secret that the New Law of Attraction cherry picks quantum physics for the observer effect or quantum entanglement to suggest that thoughts influence reality at a subatomic level. Okay, but this has been refuted by quantum physicists many times over. And there's no scientific evidence that consciousness can manipulate particles, let alone attract wealth and love and parking spaces. Yes, So I like that one. Yeah. Using quantum jargon to justify magical thinking is a misuse of, of science. And so at this point, the secret and Law of Attraction teachings carry the DNA or the cultural DNA of Protestant moralism, capitalist individualism, and mind over matter thinking and, you know, essentially superstition.

[B]

I see a lot where, you know, I've seen this on npr. There's been some great shows on Freakonomics Radio and Radiolab where they've taken a look at people who say certain things just seem to happen to them more than others. But I think we're also just very good at finding things. Like, I could look at a clock every day of the month and pay no attention to it unless it's my birthday, right? And when it's my birthday on the clock, then I notice it. You know, it just, it. It really seems to mean something at that point. And I've even found myself noticing, wow, I seem to always look at the clock when it's my birthday, but I don't think that that's actually the case. I think I always look at the clock whenever I'm upstairs because sometimes I only have three or four minutes between a session or something, like grabbing a water Go to the bathroom. What, the time with the time. But it just has a different meaning for me if it's my birthday on the clock versus when it's not.

[A]

So I think what you're speaking to, Patrick, is selective attention and confirmation bias. So when. So when I endeavor to subscribe to this practice of law of Attraction, I'm now visualizing my future. I'm, you know, looking for signs from the universe that are telling me that my visualization is coming into being. And I got a free coffee, so that must mean the universe is. Is telling me I'm doing the right thing. I saw a car that was on my vision board drive by, so that. That's another sign. And then placebo effect as well.

[B]

Yeah, the. Some of the other things that I think have been interesting is like I. I do an example in almost all of my talks where I get the audience to either stare at the ceiling and wish for it to collapse upon us, which it still never has done. Inevitably, one person in the crowd says they didn't do it and that's why the ceiling stayed up is they attribute maybe their hope it wouldn't collapse is why it didn't. And I've also done a thing where I've dropped a pencil in front of an audience and I've just asked all of them to worry about it not hitting the floor. And their power of worry then will keep it floating in the air and will prove that if we worry hard enough, we can prevent things from happening. And yet the pencil has hit the floor every single time.

[A]

So that's similar to the lottery example where so a law essentially means if you repeat the experiment under the same conditions, it'll always be true. So with the law of Attraction, it is absolutely doesn't hold up to the definition of law, because if, you know, say everyone, when you buy a lottery ticket, we're all imagining, visualizing what we're going to do with the lottery money. So that is practicing the law of attraction. And as we can see, only, you know, one or few, very few people win. So that's kind of refutes that in a pretty succinct, obvious way that we seem to not want to believe is true if we subscribe to the law of attraction.

[B]

I think it would also mean that the only reason why any sports team wins is because they've had more people hoping or wishing or praying for them to win than the other team.

[A]

Correct? Yeah.

[B]

Talent means nothing just as long as you've got more people hoping you'll win. That's what we'll do it.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

I. I've always liked the Russian phrase. It's attributed to a Russian phrase. I don't know if it actually is, but I will say that if you find yourself in the middle of the ocean, praying to get to shore is great, but rowing toward the shore is also amazingly helpful.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That, and I think from what you've described to me, and I'd like to get into this a little bit, is the. Some of the first treatments that you went to that weren't really evidence based treatments were not about rowing toward the shore. They were about trying to manifest the shore into your life and just having it be there. So I'm wondering if you could tell everyone a little bit about your story of that and, and where you find yourself today.

[A]

Yeah. So bypassing. I think a lot of these practices are essentially bypassing reality work. You know, what I needed was ERP of course, as we know. But, but you know, based on my culture and my cultural upbringing, which was very new age and I was influenced by a lot of these teachings at a very young age in my adulthood when I had a really, really profoundly terrible OCD episode, I did gravitate to doing practices like this and sitting with teachers like this and, and really having an exacerbate my magical thinking and superstitious thinking. And I began to have a very maladaptive relationship to what I thought was the universe where it was essentially hijacked by my OCD and obsessively checking and looking for signs and you know, compulsively practicing these manifestation techniques and checking my thoughts and all of the things that were meant to give me peace and, and wellness and health and abundance became something that was really harmful and worse for my ocd. And so interesting. Like in that culture, a lot of the teachers that I, that I learned from or sat with, I. It took me a while, but when I reflected, I noticed a lot of this, you know, a lot of this specialness and this.

[B]

My favorite phrase, one of the chapters of my book, don't try harder, try different. It's called specialness.

[A]

Yeah. And a lot of them talked about these like crippling anxiety and panic, you know, feelings where if conditions were. Weren't right and they weren't eating the right foods or getting this certain sleep or having this very particular routine, you know, they were, they would be so out of balance because they're so sensitive and so close to the veil or what have you. One of my teachers wouldn't ever touch a student because she was she felt like she was so sensitive she could absorb energy because she was so elevated. I mean, what is that ring of contamination? Ocd. So I realized a lot of these teachers were very unwell themselves from my perspective later and you know, probably dealing with their own undiagnosed stuff. And so kind of this, the blind leading the blind in a lot of these communities is what I came to later.

[B]

I think on there's the treatment side and then it's important, I believe, for us to address the personal side. It must have been difficult and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm wondering, did you ever feel like you were a failure because people were trying to teach you these things and tell you that these things were attainable? But of course with OCD you're never going to attain these things to the level that OCD says that you need to attain it to. And you were therefore stuck in this endless quest against the unattainable. And that had to take a personal toll on you, I'm assuming.

[A]

Oh yeah. I mean there's always this deep, you know, haunting OCD voice of I'm essentially broken and something's wrong with me and no matter what I do, I'm never going to be pure enough, well enough, enlightened enough. And I'm doing these practices at an obsessive and intensive way. But it's still, there's still something wrong with me because I wasn't treating the root of what, what really needed to be dealt with clinically. You know, I was, I was stuck. And it propelled me from teaching to teaching to cleanse, to retreat to extreme, yeah, very extreme things that really needed clinical attention.

[B]

And it probably wasn't just this metaphysical or mental aspect. It sounds like it was an actual physical things too. I'm assuming there were cleanses you had to go through and, and people would tell you, you know, you've got these, these toxins or something in your body and if you just get rid of the toxins then you won't have any mental health issues or so that's probably part of it as well, right?

[A]

Oh my gosh. I went to the most extreme lengths in that way. I mean I, I, I subscribed to stuff that was, is probably dangerous. At one point I did a 10 day. Yeah. That it was extreme to the point of it being dangerous for my health. Yes, certainly.

[B]

Yeah. Can you, can you fast enough? Can you cleanse enough? Can you have any of these supplements? Right. Those types of things. And, and of course we're not saying, you know, that anything in and of itself is terrible or awful or bad. I mean, but we are really wanting to focus today on this idea of is there an evidence basis for any of these things? Right.

[A]

So I have not found there to be an evidence basis for, for specifically what I researched for this episode was Law of Attraction.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you haven't found over. I have not found any evidence based. I found the opposite of it being refuted. And yeah, I went down a rabbit hole this weekend of on YouTube just I wanted to see what was going on currently in, in this teaching. And it's so interesting because there's. So there's Law of Attraction and then I found there's a whole subset of Christian law of attraction where they're trying to use biblical evidence to show that it was actually being taught in the Bible. And then I went down the other side of there were a ton of videos of Christians stating that law of attraction is sorcery and actually demonic and using the Bible to refute it and show that it is so. And then it goes into the east. And almost every culture can, you know, is either refuting it or accepting it and trying to, to prove that it's wrong or prove that it's right. But so the research that I did with looking at the science behind can your thoughts create reality from a science perspective? I, I could not find that that was true in any way.

[B]

Yeah. Because our goal from an evidence based treatment point of view is always I can learn to live with whatever pops into my head. Right. I don't, I don't have to make that go away. And, and the moment I attempt to make it go away becomes the pink elephant effect. And now I'm just, I'm just hoping not to think of something which means all I'm going to do is think of that thing. And I think that that is such an important thing to talk about because any therapy or teaching that is going to say to you we have a cure for this and, and you will never have these thoughts again. I, I'm very, very, very, very, very, very wary of. I mean it just frightens me that people will, will buy into that because I don't know anyone who has ever gotten to a point where they don't ever think about something ever again for the rest of their life. I just haven't seen it.

[A]

Yeah, that is not attainable and that adds to the suffering and the pressure that people with OCD when, when they see clips on social media and you know, TikTok videos Instagram videos of influencers saying, you know, your thoughts create your reality manifest you stay positive and you'll attract life of your dreams and, you know, push out the negativity that is really harmful. And I've had clients come into my office deeply upset and distressed. You know, if they have harm thoughts or contamination thoughts or pocd. And then think hearing, oh my God, my thoughts create my reality. I'm definitely going to be a murderer and rapist for sure. 100% no. And that's why I'm very passionate about dispelling this, this myth.

[B]

There's. There's even one of those inspirational posters out there that has all those things. And one of them says, thoughts make actions. And I see that and I cringe because if thoughts made actions, and I'd push everybody down the stairs every time I'm on the stairs, because I always think about pushing people down the stairs because I've treated so many people with bad fear that I can't not do it anymore. So thoughts don't make actions right? But we've held onto this belief almost that there are things that we shouldn't think right because they will attract, going back to attraction, they will attract badness in our lives. I. I did a webinar several weeks ago where I said, this will be my last webinar because I'm in a wish after the webinar to be the only human being left on the planet. And I'll wake up tomorrow morning and it will just be me. So there won't be a need to do any more webinars because there will be no one to listen to the webinar. So I, I said, goodbye, everyone. Enjoy your last night on Earth. My. I will be wishing for manifesting whatever the, the end of all civilization but myself, so that I could just find all the supercars in the world and drive them until they run out of gas and just have a great time. And of course, I woke up the next morning and everyone was still there. So I, I love to ask people what. Well, why didn't that. If, if I have the power to manifest those things, why didn't that come true? Right? Why? And, and I like what you said. Maybe, maybe it's only small thing. Maybe I could manifest a parking spot once every 10 times. My other favorite one was there was a guy cutting down a tree when I was a kid in our backyard that I loved to climb. And I was really angry that he was cutting the tree down. And I was looking at him out the window and I was I was so mad. I was wishing for him to fall out of the tree and then he fell out of the tree and I was like, yes, that was awesome. And ever since then, anytime I see people in trees, I wish for them to fall and they don't. So either it was maybe just a one time power, or there was coincidence. And I'm wondering if you could speak to how we interpret coincidence into having more meaning than that.

[A]

It does, Yeah. I mean, as humans were teleologists, we're meaning making machines. We're constantly trying to make meaning and, and connect patterns. And what you're saying with, with it just ties into the, you know, correlation does not imply causation. Just because that happened with the tree one time does not imply that the cause was your mind. And a lot of these teachers make these extreme leaps into causation where there really is none. And you know, at the core of it, I do think there is an innocence or a benevolence maybe, maybe not in just all of these teachings and religion itself. People just wanting to feel safe and comfortable and feel, you know, that there's an easier way. And so I can understand and even in myself, the vulnerable part of myself that just wanted to feel good, that, you know, it sounds great to just be able to feel like I can just think my way out of reality and create a different one. So, you know, there's a part of me that I have a lot of compassion for. The parts of us that, you know, really want to be comforted by these teachings to an extent. And then we have to do the work and we have to, you know, take the steps to get well and face uncertainties and gain resilience and get comfortable with uncertainty. And it's really not comfortable and easy to recover and face ocd. It's, it's incredibly, you know, challenging and terrible sometimes, you know, it's not easy.

[B]

Yeah. And no doubt you attempted to manifest all of this stuff as you were being taught these things. You were, I'm, I'm sure you, you ate the cupcake, right? And you, you believed. What was it that for you started to change your mind and for you to start to think, you know what this is, this is not actually getting me to where I want to be.

[A]

Yeah. I think it was my second round of ERP when I started to recognize that my magical thinking was in fact ocd. When I could untether what I had categorized as divinity or the universe or my spirituality, when I started to realize, oh, actually that's totally ocd. And Then it propelled me on this debunking probably six months or so. I just like hit the books on new age spirituality, astrology, medium, psychics, all the things I bought into. I completely debunked them. Just I was devouring books and articles and just science based evidence and, and yeah, it really was a huge wake up call for me when I started critically thinking and analyzing and becoming skeptical and digging deeper into the science and the research and. Yeah. Changed my life.

[B]

Yeah. And then you received treatment that actually helped.

[A]

Yeah, well, I kept receiving treatment more critically. Yeah. Like, the more critically I was thinking, the more I was myth busting myself on all of the small ways my OCD had manifested throughout my life that I was just so used to. Like, I was essentially living inside of a magical fantasy for so long, living by these OCD rules of these little small rituals that I didn't even think were ocd. Like, oh, I have to pick up garbage because if I see it on the street and I don't, then I'm a bad person and I'm gonna have bad karma. Like these tiny things that were, I was so habituated to it was just like pulled the veil off of, you know, essentially of a great amount of my, my world, my experience was ocd.

[B]

Yeah. And then you, you live a life where you can experience the world for what it is and not through the lens of why did this have to happen? Or what did I do to make this happen. There must be a lot of, I wonder the dark side of this, Right. In these laws of attraction or in, in this manifestation concept. There must be a lot of guilt when something goes wrong, where you must have therefore had something to do with that. Right. Is, is that true? Is that a part of it?

[A]

And, and oh, in a past life, maybe I did something bad. I was, I did something bad in a past life, or, you know, my karma is not clear, so I need to keep cleansing my karma. And this is not unlike, you know, some Western dogma that I hear my Catholic or Christian clients talk about with their sense of, of guilt. And there are, I do hear a lot of similar. If I think a bad thought, it's as bad as doing a bad action, which is some I'm not super well versed in.

[B]

We call that thought action fusion. Right, right.

[A]

But I mean, specifically in the scripture, there's some, there's something, there's.

[B]

There's a part, I think it talks about being pure of thought. And so if you're not pure of thought, then then you are potentially going.

[A]

Down a bad path that kind of gets infused into Law of Attraction too. And when it's. When it takes on the Christian flavor.

[B]

Mm. Yeah. For people who have been kind of either stuck in that, indoctrinated into that, who have held onto the beliefs that their thoughts really are the cause, there might be a lot of guilt there. There might be a lot of shame there. What's your advice for people who have been through that kind of upbringing, teaching, like you said you really were, and. And you came out on the other side. Right. How do you. Or what do you suggest to people who were like you growing up, if they're stuck in this manifestation, you know, hamster wheel, that they keep going around and around? How do you. How do you get off of it?

[A]

I would. I say critical thinking, skepticism, research. Do your research. Just start to unpack and check the sources and go further and further. That was. That to me is like the first step is just critical thinking and. And then some thought experiment of. In what way do I really identify with my thoughts? And what. In what way am I so fused that I believe I am? What is coming up on this stream of consciousness? And can I interact or even just for five minutes, play with the idea that. That I'm watching my thoughts on a screen and what does that feel like? To put them out there and still be over here and not personify or identify or fuse with what I am is my thought. Because a lot of this is based in morality and I don't want to be a bad person. And if I have a bad thought, I'm. It is a reflection of my character. So just small steps to individuating from thought itself. And that can be kind of startling for some people because, you know, we really have identified with what I think is what I am. And I'm creating my thoughts. Not. Thoughts appear in consciousness and they're random. And people with OCD notice more taboo thoughts. And then our brain tends to repeat them and repeat them because of our resistance psycho education, talking about the neuroanatomy and of OCD and what's. What's going wrong with our corticostriatal thalamic loop. Can be really helpful to just talk about the brain itself and what's going on with thought and obsession.

[B]

And. And let's not forget that we are still amazingly primitive in even understanding the brain and the way that the brain functions. Right. It. It wasn't all that long ago in our history that we were trefining people where we would believe that mental health problems were caused by demonic possession and that demons would escape from hell underground. And if you happen to be standing on a spot where a demon was, was trying to escape from hell to get to heaven up in the air that the demon could pass through your skin, but it, it couldn't pass through bones, so it would get trapped in your brain. So the, the idea was if we just cut a hole in the top of your head, then it gives the demon a place to escape and therefore it can make its way to heaven and you will be free of any mental health issues. And, and in the old quote unquote insane asylum graveyards, you, if, as archeology finds more of these, you find people with massive holes in their heads as they were, they were trying to let, let the demon out. Right. And of course there was no anesthesia and no antibiotics. So most people just died of this surgery, sadly, anyway. Which is terrible, right? Absolutely terrible. But we're only a few hundred years away from that and we're only within 50 years of really having machines that can start to really measure what's going on in the brain and tell us. So I think we're going to get there where we're really going to be able to figure a lot of things out. But I don't think it's going to be for another couple of hundred years before we really have enough sophistication to understand these things. And here's just my thought on this. Maybe a little soapboxy. I apologize if that's the case. But you know what, what have we always seen? We've always made an attempt when we can't understand things to try to attribute it to something else. Right. And as we've gained knowledge in things, we've lost, you know, we don't have a God of waves anymore. Poseidon is not believed in very much anymore because we understand what tides are and we understand fire now. So we don't have a God of fire and we don't have a God of winter and we, you know, as. But there's, there's still this mysterious aspect of how the brain works. And so we still hold on to these kind of metaphysical things around it and laws of attraction and, and you know, at a, even this quantum level of what our brains can do and as a way to explain things. And maybe, maybe we've leaned a little too hard on always trying to explain things. And sometimes what I say to people is why this happens is not as important to me as what are we going to do about it? So I don't know why you have the thoughts or the images or urges that you have. But I know that I can use some evidence based treatment to help you learn to live with it and thrive with it. And I think that's what's most important. Anyway, I'll get off my little Soap.

[A]

Yeah, I 100% agree with you. And that is hard, that is challenging for people to want to face these thoughts where as you use the example of the demon possession and having to drill the hole to set them free. If you've ever lived with ocd, it feels like, like a demonic possession. And that may very well have been an allegory for mental illness. You know, that we, we have these thoughts and feelings and fears and anxieties that do feel like we're being possessed by demons. So by any means necessary, whether that's a drill through the head or a mantra or a chant or a retreat or a, you know, religion, whatever it is, we're seeking to feel better, to move away from that where erp, we are facing the demon. We are doing the unthinkable and the unimaginable and, and letting the demon in and talk to it and, and find out, you know, what it has to say. And with script writing, we're essentially giving the demon a voice and learning to habituate to that terrifying feeling. And that is why I think people have always historically turned to anything to alleviate suffering and ERP is, is the hard way, but it works.

[B]

Yeah. You even mentioned one of my favorite people in history, Anton Mesmer and mesmerism. You know Mesmer was mesmerist, right? Yeah, Mesmer, yeah. So you know, even Ben Franklin was involved with him. He's in France and he had these magnetic pools supposedly, and people would sit in them and he dressed up like a wizard. Everything. And of course totally debunked. We had phrenology where you, you would touch people's skulls. And if there was a, a divot there that meant that they were deviant in that part of their personality, but if there was a bump there, that meant that they overused their brain in that area and you had a head that had all these different things on it and you could correspond it. Okay, so, ah, that area, that means humor. Oh. And you're not a funny person. That's why you've got a little dent there because you're just not a funny person at all. We've, we've looked for ways to explain why we are the way we are. And again, I'm going to Go back to. I'm less concerned about why we are the way we are and much more concerned about what are we going to do about the way we are. Because when people come to me, I. I even offer them, hey, after treatment, if. If you want to figure out where this came from, I'd be happy to, you know, talk to you about that, if you want. If you want to spend some time on that. No one ever takes me up on the offer because they're so thrilled to not be influenced by OCD anymore, that they're living their life and they don't want to go backwards and figure out where it came from.

[A]

Yeah. And that. I find that so common in treatment where I have to redirect because people so often are. I just don't understand why I have these thoughts. Why do I have these thoughts. Why. Where did they come from? Why me? And having to redirect and, you know, we don't. Maybe we'll never know. I've actually using that as a point of uncertainty. You know, we may never know. Maybe it was from some horrible trauma that you're unaware of, because that's often something that comes up. What if, you know, something terrible happened to me and I don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, perhaps it was. Perhaps it wasn't.

[B]

Gosh, just. We could go down the false memory. Elizabeth Loftus, amazing therapist who's done so much incredible research on this concept of. Of repressed and lost memories. Yeah, there's. There's so many. There's so many things out there. And. And I hope we all just come back to the idea that the science will really help us figure out the best way to help ourselves and each other. And. And may we never give up on evidence and science. That. That's my.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's another thing where our culture has this fascination with anything ancient. If you say that it's an ancient scripture and these ancient teachings and, you know, that it was discovered in this old cave. And so, you know, all these mystics from. Because there's some part of us that is really obsessed with the idea that these ancient people were closer to some wisdom that we don't have access to, while completely, you know, turning away from the incredible scientists and researchers that are alive today that are offering us amazing insight into the human experience. But, yeah, we have this, like, sensationalist nostalgia that if it was ancient, then it was true.

[B]

Yeah. I think that will always be with us. But I. I will tell you, if. If I fall down the stairs and I break my arm, I'm going to find a specialist who knows how to do some work and not, not just hope it gets better. Right. I'm going to, going to seek out the people who can intervene and really, really be helpful. So.

[A]

Oh, but I know some people that can do a remote, remote surgery.

[B]

Really? Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Like 10.

[B]

Good to know. Yeah.

[A]

And a flower tincture and they'll just do the surgery over the phone.

[B]

And, and I feel, I feel bad for those who fall victim to that. Right. Who, who lose their, their valuables, their money to non evidence based things that, that I really, I feel.

[A]

Yeah. That is a personal passion and point of advocacy of mine, of the undiagnosed OCD people stuck in the New age teachings. And if there's any way to help and you know, help people that are confusing their OCD symptoms with magical thinking, superstition and this, you know, compulsive checking on the universe and the divine and whatnot, that, that is just a huge passion of mine to, you know, help get that message out there that if you, if, if you know, you're still suffering and with these thoughts and obsessions and compulsions and stuck in these teachings like come on over to. Yeah, to the ERP side.

[B]

I always liked the amazing James Randi. He, he had a million dollar prize out before he passed away that if anyone could come on to his show and prove the existence of some kind of supernatural force, he would give them a million dollars. No one, no one ever did. Right. And, and so there was one example where, and this is on, you could see this on YouTube where a person was feeling over certain things to try to decide what, what had healing powers to it. Right. And they're, they're feeling over it and feeling over it and they pick one of them and, and he flips it over and it's rat poison. And the person actually says, you know, well, maybe there's something in there that could be helpful to someone. And I just thought, wow, that's, you know, that's a stretch. Yeah, that's a stretch. So, you know, NOCD is dedicated to doing evidence based treatment for OCD and we're going to keep on doing evidence based treatment for OCD and be dedicated to doing evidence based treatment for ocd. And thank you for the work you've done to help make sure that people do that as well.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And it works. It actually works. And I'm sitting here having accomplished the educational goals that I wanted to and finishing graduate school and finishing two novels that I worked on because I was able to finally get the help that I needed. So thank you.

[B]

Awesome. Well, Jacqueline, thanks for being here again. Always a great time to see you. And thank all of you for listening to another episode of the get to Know OCD podcast. If you like to get to Know OCD podcast, well, you can subscribe to our NOCD YouTube channel. And if you're looking for help for OCD or related conditions, check us [e-mail] that's n o c d dot com. We'll see you again in the future.

[A]

Bye.