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Foreign.
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Hi, everyone. Welcome again to another episode of the get to Know OCD podcast. I'm Dr. Patrick McGrath, the Chief Clinical Officer here at NOCD. If you're looking for help for OCD or related conditions, check us out@nocd.com we've got expertly trained therapists waiting to meet with you to help you with OCD and all of your other related issues that may be going along with it. Today on the get to Know OCD podcast, I am excited to have Molly Lambert with with us. Hi, Molly, how are you?
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Hey. I'm good. How are you?
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B
I'm doing very well. Thank you for being here. Of course, your story has resonated with thousands across the world, and so I wanted to give you a moment to introduce yourself and tell everybody about who you are and what brought you here to be on the podcast today.
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A
Yes. So I'm Molly Lambert. I'm from the uk. I live in Manchester. I'm from, like, the London area and I'm an OCD advocate, content creator. I kind of hate saying that, but I guess that's what I am. I'm posting on TikTok about my OCD experience for the past, like, two and a bit years. It's been quite a long time, but the end of last year, it kind of like hit the right parts of the for you page. People started seeing it more and, like, engaging with it more. And yeah, the press kind of were interested by it, which obviously is kind of what I wanted because this is like such a. Such a, you know, important and it needs to be a widespread conversation. So it's been a lot, but it's been, like, amazing. And it's obviously really heartbreaking to see how many people have actually, you know, related to me and my experience, but also quite comforting in a lot of ways as well. So, yeah, and I work in marketing, but I obviously do this on the side and it's a lot, but it all kind of relates. So, yeah.
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B
Awesome. Well, we're thrilled you're here. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it and wanted to kind of go through a little bit of your history and your story. So you talked about growing up with anxiety, some panic attacks, but at 15, things seemed to change for you and however you're comfortable. What happened at 15 that suddenly things were a bit different in your world?
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Yeah, I think obviously, kind of now that I've unpacked things in therapy and obviously what I understand about OCD is I was obviously always suffering with it in, in. In some way. But because I was a child and I obviously, you know, my fears then were only just going to evolve as I kind of understood the world and got older. And I think that's kind of what happened. And when I was, you know, 14, I was learning more about sex and, like, crime and, like, things that, you know, obviously before that, but, like, this is, you know, that kind of peak age of understanding those things. And I think that paired with obviously my OCD brain not knowing at the time just completely just like, blew up and. Yeah, kind of how it began for me. I was going on a family holiday when I was 14. I was in airport going to Spain and I saw a little girl and I thought, oh, her outfit is quite inappropriate for, like, a child to wear. Like, she's wearing, like, a crop top and, like a short skirt or something. I don't really remember now, but, like, it was obviously a very, like, innocent and not, you know, that kind of thought at all, of course. And I. I then went, oh, why have I thought that? Do I fancy the child? Am I, you know, aroused by her? Was I looking at her in, like, a predatory way? And, you know, you know where this goes. I was then, like, oh, my gosh, like, I might be a pedophile. And like, that, even that thought in my head, like, just created the most obviously insane panic in me. I was 14. I obviously wasn't.
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B
Yeah, especially at that age, of course. Right.
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A
It's, like, so irrational and that's kind of what I think helps people understand it. Obviously, at any age, it's irrational because you're panicking it and it's an intrusive thought. But especially then, like, I was 14, like, it's not a rational way to be thinking. And that's the point. And then, yeah, I went on the holiday and obviously that's quite a triggering place because, you know, there's beaches and, you know, pools of kids and whatever. And I somehow, luckily it didn't kind of take off in the way that it eventually did. At that time, it kind of was like, you know, I was having, you know, spirals and I was panicking, but I was kind of attracted myself enough. I wasn't kind of going into that real, like, overtaken by OCD mode. But I came home from the holiday, kind of went back to school and again, was kind of distracted well enough to kind of ignore it, whatever. And then my exams. This is kind of your final at school exams. The age I was 15. And, yeah, I was kind of obviously revising the stress, I think, combined with everything. I was revising my day desk and it was about a month before my exams kicked off which obviously the timing could not have been worse.
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B
And I remember OCD loves good timing, doesn't it?
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And I remembered the thoughts I was having in the summer prior and like the spiral that I had and I remembered it and I just thought, and the panic I felt that I'd remembered it cuz I knew that this time I wasn't going to forget it. And yeah, obviously I'm sure get into it but from that point onwards like my OCD was like with me and obviously it was before but it was like my life was forever different and obviously sent me to what I'm doing now, but it was terrifying. And yeah, I spent about six months in Fight or Fly just like every. And obviously as you know, if you know ocd, I'm sure you do, I heard of it. I began, I began with this thought about oh my God, if I'm a pedophile. And, and within about an hour I was then thinking, okay, what if I could be a murderer? What if I could be a psychopath? What if I could have sex with my family members, my friends, what if I could, you know, fancy my dog? And like that was all happening in a space of a few days and like the spirals were taking new and obviously once you think oh I could be a bad person, I've had that thought so therefore I'm going to think about all the other things that could be a bad person thought. And now I understand that's completely not normal, but it's typical of an OCD brain. It's, it's, you know, if you're thinking of something bad so you're trying not to think about it and it's come back worse. But obviously then I was 15 and I was trying to enjoy my last year of school and like, you know, be present and like enjoy my celebrations and I just wasn't there for any of it. I was there and I was smiling and I was getting through it but I wasn't mentally there. And yeah, it was the worst year of my life and like obviously a lot happened after that, which I'm sure we'll get into. But yeah,
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B
so, okay, I'm, there's so many ways I want to go there. Yeah, let me, let me get a couple of just timeline things because after this you try therapy but you're not comfortable telling a therapist any of these things, right?
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Yes. So therapy for me came a long time after this. So I spent that Whole year of, you know, my life, like in fight or flight, I was like, okay, yeah, I was feeling very suicidal. I was like leaving or had a cafe job. I couldn't do the job because of how triggering I was finding it. Hopes I left as an excuse and then found something else which kind of turned up anyway. But I was just in like it and I, I think why I find it also emotional now and when I went to therapy, I was so emotional, I was crying so much is because when I was first sitting with. I'm not sure if you've had this before, but I, I didn't cry because I was just in a state of fear. Like I didn't have the emotional side of it because I was just so scared and like, I didn't, couldn't. And I also thought if I sit in my bedroom and cry about this, it makes it real. And I'm crying about being a pedophile and like that's like so, like scary to understand. So I, I just, I just wasn't, I was just absolutely petrified for like a good year. And yeah, I kind of managed to distract myself. And then, you know, new themes taking place. And as I was getting older, I was thinking, okay, well maybe I'm, maybe I'm that. And I had no idea what was happening to it. I thought that something had taken over my brain. I thought that I was like. Although I really thought, I thought I was a monster and I thought I was, you know, I deserved to not be alive. And I thought that like, no one, no one would understand me. And my parents, they are the best people ever. And they're so like, they always have been quite emotionally open and we've had a lot of, you know, different conversations before that in my house and it was never like a closed house in that way. And that just shows how, how OCD can feel because I just thought I can never tell anyone this, like ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. Like even my parents who were so emotionally available and were so there for me and like, I know that speaking to them now they would have helped me and they would have, you know, support and they would have seen as adults a 14 year old girl wasn't a paedophile. And she obviously was an anxious person and this is not that. And like, it brings me comfort now knowing that if I had opened up to them, it would have been okay either way. But, but like, it just shows if people don't have the right people around them combined with this, like, it's such a difficult, isolating place to be in. And I felt that even when I had good people around me. And. Yeah, so a few years passed, I went to university. I was still dealing with it so badly. And obviously I was drinking a lot of alcohol, which isn't the thing to be doing. I still drink now, but I drink a lot less and a lot less frequently because it just makes my OCD so much worse and my anxiety so much worse. And I was going to university and, like, making loads of friends and distracting myself. And I have a lot of problems now because, like, the way obviously I was coping, which obviously most people do with ocd, is I was just separating myself from my brain and just like, you know, finding anything and anything, anything and everything to not think about what I was thinking about, but I was still thinking about it, you know. So, yeah, I was drinking way too much. And then I was coming back home from university and feeling back where I was when I was 15 again and thinking, oh, my God, I'm never gonna survive this. I'm gonna have to die. And like. Like, when is this gonna wrap up? Like, I'm not. This is not ending. And I remember having so many thoughts of, like, I'm gonna be 50 years old if I make it that far with a family and kids, and I'm gonna, like, still be thinking this way and still be having to, like, fight this every second of my life. Because it does feel that way. Like, it feels like when you're distracted, you're not thinking about it. As soon as you're not distracted, you're thinking about it. And it's like I would almost be in moments and be enjoying something and then go, I'm gonna have to go home and think about this thing again. I'm gonna have to go back and check and check and check.
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Because there's never enough checking or thinking about it, right?
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No. And obviously your mind produces more and more. And I was visualizing things from my past. Was I aroused by that? And like, have I ever looked after a child and felt a certain way and, you know, could I have not remembered doing something to a child? And maybe this will come from that. And like, you know, it's an absolute, like, mind warfare because you're never gonna. And you know this, you're never gonna find the answer. And there is no answer because all of it is just not make believe. But I guess it is make believe in my head. And yeah, so in weirdly, in university, I think because having new people around me, I was like, well, maybe I can just mention no Sorry, I'm missing a massive, massive part of the story. Sorry. I was on TikTok in 2021, which is why I do this, because I know how powerful the app was for me. And so, yeah, it was about two and a half years after my first PSU spirals when I was 15, so maybe I was, yeah, 18 at this point. Sure. Okay. And I saw a video about this girl saying, like, when someone thinks. Oh, or in someone, someone thinks interest of thoughts is washing your hands loads or ocd, but it's actually me thinking, I fancy my niece. And I saw it and I was like. At first I was kind of like, what's she talking about? And then I read the comments and it was like pedophilic OCD and intrusive thoughts. And I'd never heard of thoughts in this way before, ever. And I literally. I remember the feeling. Obviously it wasn't like, oh, I'm fixed. It was just like this weight that lifted off my shoulders of, like, wait, this could be a thing. And this could be something that I could actually attribute all of this hell that I'm experiencing to. But of course, in true OCD fashion, I was like, well, maybe I'm different. Maybe, like, of course, yeah, maybe I'm still a Peter on a psychopath and maybe I have a picture to still do it. And maybe I secretly like it. And maybe, like, I, you know, as we all know, so. But I still had that pocket of like, okay, this could be something that I can investigate and look into. And I kind of. I. I remember searching up, like, pedophilicity and feeling so guilty for even typing that into my phone. And then, like, that spiral in me as well. I remember that really vividly. And yeah, it was just like, it was a breakthrough, but it was. It wasn't quite there for me yet. Which is why, like, what I do now is, like, I'm so open about it and I give descriptions and I say the things that I needed to hear because it was still, like, kind of vague. Then, like, it was like, OCD is not what you think it is, but we're not going to say what it is. Kind of. That was the vibe on the Internet at that point, bar this person that posted it. So, yeah, I also went to university. I was, like, speaking. I kind of was mentioning to my new friends, like, oh, yeah, like, I've had, like, some bad, like, intuitive thoughts before. Like, I've never spoken about it. And, like, some friends were like, oh, that sounds really bad, like, moving on. And I was like, oh, my God. And then some friends. I had a few friends that were like, oh, like, I've had that before really badly. And I had therapy for it. And it's ocd and it's like, it's obviously not all thoughts like this existed as ocd. So, like, you know, other things that people have had and I was like, way more, and I was getting quite drunk and speaking about it, which isn't a good idea. And like, that made me feel worse. So. But yeah, and obviously a few friends are kind of telling me when they were drunk things that they'd been thinking and things of whatever. And gradually I was like, okay, like, I'm starting to edge this out of myself, but I'm still nowhere near ready to, like, speak about it to my family or a professional or it was strictly when I was drunk in a random bar or an after party. I could then speak about it, which isn't a healthy way of dealing with it at all either, because obviously the next day I would then spiral more and more. So, yeah, and then that kind of cycle of me speaking about it, but not really, and then going home and then sparring about it even more and then drinking and that kind of thing lasted, like, a good year. It's my first year of university. And then I think I started to look kind of more into what OCD was and kind of looking at tick tocks more and kind of like, like, understanding this is actually, I could have ocd, but I don't know if I do and like, that kind of whole thing. And I remember I was going back and forth to see my. My parents more because there's, like, a situation with them and I was in a station. I was like, I can't do this anymore. Not like in. I was going to kill myself. I was like, I just cannot do this cycle of, like, going back to where I was when I was 15 and, like, feeling so. And also I was traumatized by what I'd been through because I'd, like, of course, spent two, three years in, like, complete, like, silence. And, like, I'm quite like a confident extroverted person, so I couldn't, you know, hide away and, like, you know, hide. I was hiding it really bloody well. But that was obviously exhausting me, like, to the nth degree. And it's something I sort of now in terms of, like, kind of my response to feeling stuff is to completely, you know, shut it away and be super extroverted and loud. And, like, that didn't really pair well because no one Noticed. And like. And yeah, and I think at that point my physical anxiety hadn't really kicked in yet. So again, I wasn't presenting it, I wasn't having panic attacks at that point. I wasn't, you know. So, yeah, I messaged my friend and I was like, I. Like, I'm having really, really bad times. My university friend, who also had some mental health problems, I thought maybe she could understand and she was like, yeah, look, I've had really similar thoughts. Like, get a therapist. Like, it's like, you can speak. I. I still was not saying the word pedophile. Like, right, right, like that. Like, I only was able to say that word, like, kind of fluently, like, a few years ago. It still made me really, really scared and sick to say it because of the way that I felt towards it. But, yeah, I then again ignored her, didn't get therapy, kept on drinking, kept on doing the cycle. And like, I, in my second year of university, just like, kind of hit a place. I was, I need to speak about this. Like, this is eating me alive. So I went home for Christmas and broke down to my parents when I was drunk. Bit of a theme. And they were just like, oh, my gosh, like, what? Like, you've been doing this for how long? Like, we need to get you help, like, again, because they are so open and they would, you know, and woke up the next day and I was, you know, mortified. I was like, why have I said this to them? Like, oh, my gosh, like, you know, what did I say and whatever.
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For my parents to disown me as a child now.
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Yeah, something like that. I kind of had gotten to the pace. I knew what it OCD was. I did feel a little bit less petrified, luckily. But, like, my dad turned to me next day and he was like, we're not forgetting what you said to us, by the way. We're not going to let you do what you always do and, like, go back to university and, like, act like nothing's happening because, like, this is obviously eating you alive inside and we're gonna, like. And luckily they, like, kind of paid for my therapy and that obviously sped things up way more. And like, in the uk, you know, the NHS is massively overran. Like, it's a really difficult kind of path to go into, but it is possible. But my dad was like, with this specific, the way you are behaving last night, we need to get you into therapy, like, asaps. He paid for it. Like, I'm so grateful for that.
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B
Thank you, dad. Thank you.
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Thank you, dad. Thank you, dad. Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, I went back to university and got the therapy finally. It did take a few months, not gonna lie, but. And I was like, am I gonna be able to say any of this out loud? Like, I. Like, I still was just like, this is. And I still wasn't speaking back to my friends, really. I think I had, you know, a few conversations that were a little bit more specific. I remember having one in particular. I said the words. I was like, oh, yeah. Like, I used to have, like, awful thoughts about being a pedophile and, like, fancying my family members. And this girl was like, I've had the same thing. Like, and it. Like, it was a kind of like, oh, my God moment, which I'm having so much, obviously, now on the Internet. But, like, it was like, what the hell? So, yeah, I got. I went and went to therapy. It was. It was a kind of cbt, but, like, kind of talking therapy. It wasn't. It wasn't the best. I think, obviously, now I have so much more knowledge on ocd. I obviously know that, like, CBT and ERP is, like, the best practice, but obviously I was, like, so unaware of, like, what OCD looked like, and if I could have it, I still was unaware of all of this. So I just, like, kind of took whatever therapist looked nice on the Internet. So. But luckily, she was great. And, like, she wasn't, you know, I guess amazing sense of, like, she didn't know how to respond to OC exactly, but she just listened to me and she just, like, was like, this is so common, and, like, I've heard this so many times, and, like, I couldn't say the word. I was so, like, I couldn't say it. And she's like. She said it for me. And I was like, yeah. And I just had a session where I, like, completely cried every tear I've ever held in for, you know, five years, four years, and it was the start of the rest of my life, which sounds really cringey, but it was. And, like, I. I left there, and I felt so much worse for a good few weeks. Like, I kept speaking about it, and I was like, oh, my God, this is exhausting, and it's terrifying, and I hate this. But the more that I was doing it, the more I was like, oh, my God, I'm not a bad person, and this is not. Oh, my gosh. I was just. I was an anxious person. Obviously, at this point, I didn't know that I had ocd, but I Was like, I. Like, none of that was me. Like, it was me, but it's not me. And, like, it was. Yeah, it was amazing. And she just was kind of talking to you about, you know, the complexities of shame and, like, how shame can instill within you in so many different ways. And I was noticing the way that I was living my life was because I was so ashamed of who I was and what I was hiding, but I wasn't hiding anything. And that's kind of. I think when people think, you know, they message me or they come to my support group or whatever, they're like, I'm, like, almost confessing something, and it's like, it's. This is not a confession of being a bad person. Like, it's not. And, like, I got used to that more and more, and she kind of spoke me through it, and I was like, okay, like, I can speak about this. And I was, like, doing it, and it just felt so out of body, but it was just the best thing ever. Sorry, we can ask a question.
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B
One thing that I hear all the time. And I, first of all, thank you for being so open in speaking about this, because it is a topic that a lot of people, even after treatment, feels, you know, like, I don't know if I want to. So I really appreciate that.
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A
Thank you.
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B
One of the things, you know, with nocd, we have our online community, and we get, all of the time, people who will say, yes, I. Maybe I heard Molly say something about it, but. But to me, it just feels so real. I think it's different than everyone else. And you. I've. You had that. You already described that. Can you describe, though, in detail, though, that. That. But it feels so real notion or experience? Because I think that that's what confuses people who don't really understand OCD when they say, well, just stop thinking about it. They just don't get it. Right. Can you talk about what it was like to really feel that and. And having to overcome that part of it?
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A
Yeah, I think, because obviously we're all, you know, we're different human beings. We all have consumed things in different ways and seen different things. And, you know, because you're in anyone else's head, you're like, well, maybe this specific thought that I had, this, you know, particular one was different to what other people must have. So then that must be different. So therefore I'm different. Therefore I'm the bad person. And I think for me, recovery for me has been low and slow. Like, I feel like I kind of like, you know, it wasn't as if I had the OC really badly and was like, hey, I need to get help, this is awful, get me out of here. Like, it was kind of like I had this awful thing. I dealt with it for so long by myself, which obviously I don't recommend doing and if you're struggling, get the health instantly. But I think where I kind of like kind of edged into it more and more, I was kind of more accepting of kind of okay. Like this is, you know, what I've been dealing with and it's like I was kind of able to like learn about it more slowly. And then when I learned about it then I could explain it best to people and then I could express myself better and they could help me more. And it kind of, it my kind of process with it was really helpful in that way. But kind of that whole like, you know, maybe I'm different. I think for me what's really helped, which I know is quite not typical, is posting on the Internet about it, which is like really? And I guess this can be the same if you're in a support group or you're on like a obviously in a non reassurance seeking way. Like obviously the platforms that are like, you know, seek out in a positive way. But kind of hearing other people's experiences and seeing how common this is through what I'm doing has really helped me. And it's kind of why when I get messed about it, I'm like, I'm like, go look at my page, look how many people are relating to this. Like this is not just you. And like no matter what the thought looks like it all comes from the exact same place. And I've learned it now. Like I'm like, Because obviously my brain throws at me all the time. Like, you know, even now I'm doing right this second, I'm like, oh, maybe you are just a psychopath and maybe you are as a pedophile, maybe you're lying to the Internet and you're kind of get, you know, it's going to do that to me. It's always. And I've learned now and I've accepted that my brain will always throw me weird fucking thoughts and weird scenarios because it's, that's the way my brain is and it's learned to do that over the past 23 years and they will all look a bit different and they will all try and scare me in different ways and then I might go, oh my gosh, maybe that's a different one. And maybe that one is the one that makes it true. But then I look back and I'm like, okay, well, all of the other thoughts weren't true. And I know all of those are just new ways to try and scare me and I. I can wreck. I think, obviously, again, this takes time and help and practice and professional help, but I know how the thoughts look now. They are repackaged in different ways for me, which, like you say, try and makes me think, oh, maybe this is a different one and maybe I'm. This is more realistic, whatever. But they are the same. If you pull back the layers, ah, you're the same as all the other bloody thoughts that, like, you know, weren't harmful and weren't me either. And, yeah, I think the more that you learn that when you get new themes and new spirals, you're not trying to, you know, place it. Okay, this must be a different one because you are aware of, like, how these can all look and they all are the same thing.
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B
Yeah.
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A
What makes sense.
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B
Yeah, no, absolutely. Because it. It's also why when I would do this live and I would do an OCD group and some. The new person would come in and no matter what the person speaking would say, they'd lean over to the person next to me, go, I wish I had that kind of ocd, right? Because, oh, yeah, anyone but the one I have would be better than the one I have, you know? So that's why it's interesting to me, too, where people will say, want to say, well, mine's the worst kind of ocd. And here's just a quick, funny story. There was one day at the hospital I thought I was being punked because throughout the day, three different people came up to me and said, I think I have the worst OCD you've ever seen in your career. So instead of sending them to a checkout group that we normally did, I brought them into a room together and I said, like the Highlander, there can be only one. And therefore the three of you must battle it out until you agree who has the worst case of OCD that I've ever seen. Nobody won because they all were just like, no, mine's the worst. Mine's the worst. Mine's the worst. And I said, we could waste our time trying to decide who has the worst case of ocd, or we could do therapy. What are we going to do here?
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A
Yeah. And I guess with that, it's like, as a human, you're only in your own head. And the severity of it is Going to feel so much higher because you're experiencing the threat, you're experiencing the uncertainty. But I think this is why what I'm hopefully doing now on the Internet, as a many therapists and advocates is, you know, you're opening the conversation that's. Oh, actually, I relate to that part of that bit of ocd. And. And also, OCD is so specific, isn't it? So you almost. If you speak to someone with ocd, you're gonna have a very similar experience. And the more that I'm doing that each time, like, okay, yeah, this is just oc. This was. That was all this ocd. And yeah, I think also for me, like, what kind of took me out of the hole. And I. I really thought I'd kind of come out the hole the most, like, since I've been doing all of this, because I'm like, I'm. I've externalized it so much, which obviously might not be great in some aspects, but it's really helped me be like, OCD is just like, here. And I'm like, here, you know. But what really helped me initially, before I obviously was posting online or anything, was like, finding power in my knowledge, which obviously sounds like a bit like. But like, you know, not reading, you know, research papers and scientific whatever. Like, not like that, but, you know, listening to podcasts and, you know, reading books about it, or, you know, finding content creators that make you feel good or like anyone that is like an example or, you know, explanation for OCD that isn't in your own head, because then that, again, separates you from it, and you can understand it as a process and it a brain difference instead of your specific thoughts and that specific memory and that specific thing. And by doing that and learning about it, it then kind of neutralized all of it. So I was like, hey, the thought about me fancying my dog and thought about me maybe doing something in my childhood that was really disturbing. Like, they are all the same thing. And it kind of. Yeah. And it just neutralized it for me. I was then able to step back and be like, oh, my God, I was dealing with this the whole time. And like, this is what it's been. And I think that's why obviously, you know, people that aren't diagnosed are as valid as people that have been. But I think diagnosis really helps because it just gives it that, like, okay, this is a separate thing from me, but not because. Actually, what's your opinion on this? Not to flip it to you, but I spoke in a support group recently about, like, How? Well, someone was saying that they were told to label their OCD and kind of name it. And over the years I've actually found that naming it kind of makes me feel a bit like a, a little bit like crazy that I've got like, almost like another thought in my head. But also I think it kind of villainizes it so much that it's almost like a, a devil on your shoulder, which again, kind of, and I like to kind of view it more of like OCD is my like sweet and very unaware and a little bit stupid and like hyper aware part of my brain, not my evil part of my brain. And like, do you know what I mean? But if that's good advice.
- [29:45]
B
So I think that there's a difference in ages too. You know, kids can't really understand that unwanted thought or image or urge isn't them, right. They, they still think spongebob lives in the ocean for real. Right. So when they have the thought, they think of it as real. So for children helping them to figure out how to label it slightly different. But I agree with you, for teens to adults, I don't include again, response prevention. Tell yourself this is your OCD that just becomes a compulsion for a lot of people or saying, you know, shut up, ocd. And it, it just doesn't seem to take them to the next level. When we're doing really good response prevention, what's our goal? To go back into doubt and uncertainty and just learn to live there like everybody else. I, I have no guarantee after we're done here, when I go down the stairs that, that I won't fall down the stairs. Right. And I'm going to do no compulsions whatsoever to try to prevent it. Well, we'll just see what happens, right? So I'm going to live in doubt and uncertainty. I'm not going to say I'm a really good stair climber. Right. Just gonna, I agree with you that I, I'm trying not to just have people label this all as ocd. Right. It's just not, it's not going to be that helpful.
- [31:01]
A
Yeah. And it's not, it's, it's my warped perception of, you know, what could happen. And, and I think I saw someone recently explain it really well, psychologist. And he was talking about how like, you know, kind of what you just said about the stairs, like, it's, it's very unlikely that I would die tomorrow, but it's not impossible. And like, and like that, that for someone with ocd, that's the bit. And someone asked Me on the. My support group being like, so how do you. How do you handle that? How do you handle that? Things could happen and. But when you're in that really bad ocd, stay and spiral. Like, it feels so heavy. And it feels so. Like, it feels so, like, you know, if I don't figure this out, like, it's just. It's a very vulnerable place to be and everything is sticking. And it's kind of like if your car alarm went off because someone broke into it and then a feather fell on it, and then, like, it's going to keep going off because you're in that state. And I think therapy and understanding and context. Not context, but like, you know, gauging it as a thing helps you, you know, bring your rational mind back in, and then those thoughts aren't as sticky and those what ifs don't feel so heavy. Yeah.
- [32:17]
B
I've even likened it to OCD. Doesn't care about the 99.8% of your life that you'd have no control over. It just says in this area, you must have 100% certainty. Yeah, it's fine not to everywhere else, but here you have to. Which means you're living in two different sets of rules. And that's a way to fail at living, is to try to apply two sets of rules to your life that really go against each other. That it's okay to not know something, but it's also mandatory that I have to know everything.
- [32:48]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:49]
B
It doesn't work.
- [32:50]
A
Yeah. And also, like. Because also the whole basis of the panic and the spirals for me was because it scared me so much. And like, you know, when I. Now that I'm out of it, I'm in my rational mind more. I'm like, well, you're so scared of doing these things, and you're so scared of these thoughts, therefore you don't like them. And that's, like, obvious to me now, but it almost felt like. And I think it's a really. I don't know if it's a very helpful thing to say, and I hope it's not like, like me just kind of saying, like, get over it. But it kind of clicks for me one day and I think, obviously not, you know, out of the blue. It was like, you know, years of therapy and, oh, sure, and whatever. But, like, it just clicked. And now that it's clicked, like I said before, you know, I'm still getting interested thoughts, like, every day. And I'm obviously, what I'm doing that of What I'm doing, I'm speaking about it more. So obviously my brain is with it more and it's getting. I'm having them all the time, especially kind of around, like my accentuated and kind of not really feeling real and kind of is reality real and that kind of feeling. And I'm like, oh, this is horrible. But I know what it is. And I like said before, I can accept that this feeling is uncomfortable. And it's gonna be because my brain's producing these awful things, but I know where it's coming from, so it's not gonna send me into that downward. I need to find stuff out. I'm gonna message everyone that I know and ask them if they think this is weird and whatever. But.
- [34:12]
B
Yeah, well, and I. I like what you said to get over it piece. I. I think for a lot of people, that day is the day they realize OCD has told me nothing but lies. There has not been one truth that has ever come out of it. I mean, what did. What truth did OCD ever tell you, Molly?
- [34:29]
A
Ever? None.
- [34:31]
B
Yeah, right.
- [34:32]
A
Like literally none. Yeah. And. And that's. And I. Like I said before, my worst time that I get them now is kind of like when I'm hungover, tired, ill, and like, my brain's already like, woo. And then therefore the OCD is like, oh, let's think about some awful things and latch onto things and like, kind of put my anxiety somewhere else.
- [34:52]
B
Take advantage when you're not at your peak performance level.
- [34:55]
A
For sure. Yeah. And even my friends can recognize now when I'm, you know, starting to slip into a spiral because, you know, ask a lot of questions or I'll go a bit quiet and I'll be researching something, and then I'm like. And then I go, okay. And. Or they'll go, molly, what is this? Like, see this for what this is. And this helped me, like, again, even with my. Because I had a lot of, like, kind of panic attacks and physical anxiety. The end of my university experience. And then it's kind of was when my therapy was doing its job with my ocd, but all of it was kind of coming out on the woodwork. So I was then feeling super physically anxious. And yeah, she have to talk about, you know, the rational brain and the irrational brain and like, how I can't remember it now. I'm sure you know more than me, but, like how they interact and how you can pull yourself out of that irrational brain. And the techniques that I learned for my physical anxiety, I now use for my OCD, because it is 100 kind of the same thing. And once my rational brain comes back to me, I'm like, thank God you're here. Like, yeah, I need you. Once that brain kicks back in, I can, you know, the dust settles, and I'm like, okay, I know what this is. I've seen it before. I'm, you know, going over a memory from when I was nine. Like, this is silly. Let's pack it up, and then I can just go do something different. And then it passes. And that is, like, a great place to be in, I think the worst. And obviously, people that are listening and people that are, you know, come to whatever I do, it's like, they're like, but how do I get to that point? Like, and that you. When you're in that point, you want an immediate fix because it's so exhausting and it's so excruciating sometimes.
- [36:32]
B
Yeah.
- [36:35]
A
And obviously the harsh reality is there is no immediate fix, but it will fix. And you have to just kind of like, you know, give it the time and do the right things in the right way to. And, you know, I know reassurance seeking is such a difficult thing to refrain from, but, you know, try not to do that and speak to the right people and, you know, especially people that are professionals and understand it so won't feed into whatever pathway you're going down and bring back that rational brain. Eventually you'll learn and learn and learn, and you'll be like me, not like me. That sounds very weird, but you'll be, you know, on the other side of the hole.
- [37:11]
B
So, yeah, two things on that. Well, maybe the biggest one, I want to say thank you for talking about drinking as a way to manage ocd, because not a lot of people realize how many people with OCD actually turn to substances as a way to try to manage what's going on in their head. Almost a third of people with OCD will at some point abuse substances as a way to try to deal with ocd. So it's. It's actually a big problem that not a lot of people talk about.
- [37:42]
A
Yeah.
- [37:42]
B
And so I really appreciate that you. You said that, and you. You were able to recognize what you were trying to do with substances was to get a break in a way. Right?
- [37:52]
A
I was trying. It wasn't my thing.
- [37:54]
B
It doesn't work. Right. Yeah. And then I. I think probably some of the second part is, is this idea. Back to this idea that OCD is a liar. You know, OCD does not have your best interest. At heart. It only has its best interest at heart. Right. So you want to live the life you want to live. It wants you to live the life it wants you to live. And that's really the battle of when do you decide that it's time for you to live the life you want to live and not listen to the life that OCD wants for you anymore?
- [38:26]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And. And that's the clickbait, isn't it?
- [38:30]
B
Yeah.
- [38:31]
A
Something I always say, which is, like, so, like, cringy and I hate it. But I always say, like, it's enough. It's another line in a different disguise. Like. Like, now I'm able to take the disguise off and be like, oh, I see you again, like, in this weird way that I've made it in my head. But it's. It is that, like, I, I. Yeah, I think for me, now that I'm a bit older, the thoughts that kind of stick with me more is kind of like, you know, if I've been at work and I've had, like, a meeting and I've said something or there's been a shift in a vibe, and I'm going over everything I've ever said to them, ever in my life. And, like, that in that way.
- [39:06]
B
Because it's always your fault.
- [39:08]
A
Always. My father. Yeah. Everything. Yeah. Or like, if I. I'm, like, speaking to my friend and I'm like, okay, I've said something that I didn't mean. I have to go over and over and make sure that they know that I didn't mean that. And that's kind of how it presents in me more now. It's kind of like real things that happen, which can be difficult because it doesn't tangle into reality. And I have said that thing. And, like, that is. That is true. But this panic bit isn't necessary. I'm still kind of learning and dealing with ways I can, you know, separate myself from that. But being aware and knowing that I'm doing those things and that it probably is my OCD is, like, the best position that I can be in, you know?
- [39:45]
B
Sure. But, yeah, before we go, this is a topic that obviously gets a lot of different comments. Right. I mean, we've heard from people who understand what pedophilic OCD is, and then we hear from people who say, oh, you're just using OCD to mask this idea that you are really a terrible, awful person who wants to harm children. And no doubt you've probably gotten some replies. Right. About something like that. So, yes. What's your message to people out there who just don't understand this. And, and maybe we could help change a mind or something today about, about this idea of ego dystonic, unwanted, intrusive thoughts and images and urges.
- [40:33]
A
Yeah, I, I say two things. The first thing is I think the way that I'm getting through kind of see what I'm doing, you know, and getting a lot of hate and people saying like if she not a nonce and like, you know, not offending pedophile and whatever. I also think if someone is commenting hate on like anything, I'm like, your opinion is already invalid because what you're saying is like, so like, you know, they're not a nice person or like a clever person be commenting like you know, on a random person's post or whatever. That's one way that I deal with it, but the other way, and what I always try and say to them is if you understand OCD in the way that it's known already, which is that people organize and they clean and that's like, yeah, that's it. And that's like, oh, they're a bit weird, but that's okay. That is the exact same thing and process of me thinking that I was a paedophile. When I was 15, I wasn't cleaning and I wasn't organizing. I was going over and over and over a thought that is completely irrational. Someone that is cleaning their bathtub with bleach over and over again because they believe there's germs in it, that's irrational. Someone that you know, thinks that they're a paedophile or a psychopath, that's rational too. Like if you can understand it and grasp it from the perspective of how you already know it, then you do understand this one. It just sounds a lot scarier. And also a, you know, non offending pedophile and a pedophile will, might have some guilt towards their thoughts and not act on them or whatever. And that's a big thing I get asked about all the time. But they still enjoy those thoughts and they have arousal and they have, they want those thoughts to be happening. They just won't act on it and they know that it's a bad thing to be thinking, but they still love those thoughts. Whereas some of those ocd, you know, you hate this thing and you, you're aware. And also one thing I think in this day and age, you know, when I was 14, I was reading, you know, news articles about things that were happening and seeing TV shows and you hear so much of, you know, bad crimes that happens, it's already in your head. And OC just projects it in front of you and goes, what if you're into that? And then you're thinking about it and thinking about it, you're not having, you know, aroused pleasurable thoughts towards kids or towards killing or raping or whatever. It's literally just knowing that it exists and thinking, oh, my God, I know that exists, therefore I'm going to panic over it. So, yeah, it's basically just just being aware of things that are bad in the world. Obsessing the fact that you've even been aware of it, essentially. So it's. Yeah, yeah, I.
- [43:07]
B
That's why we do the podcast. We just want to educate the world and people because OCD is more than just washing your hands or straightening things or checking, you know, that the car's locked or something like that. It's.
- [43:19]
A
I have never had any of those issues before.
- [43:22]
B
Never.
- [43:23]
A
Like, okay, yeah, yeah.
- [43:26]
B
So the taboo nature OCD even fascinates clinicians. You know, I interview a lot of people for jobs, and we now and then even get a therapist who says, oh, I could. I could never work with people who have that. Right. Just. Even therapists, even therapists don't understand this to the degree that is necessary. Why? Because it's not taught in school. You know what's taught in school about ocd? You wash your hands and you check things a lot. That's what's taught about ocd. And so we are out here to change the world and educate the world and help people understand through stories like yours where. Where people will finally see what OCD and it looks like. What is the face of ocd?
- [44:12]
A
Yeah. And yeah, when I was in school, I was learning about it in, like, my A level exams and stuff, but I was learning about what I was experiencing because of how different it's spoken about. I was still unaware. And I was writing down OCDs, obsessions and compulsions, eg, cleaning. And I was having that. But because of. Do you know what I mean? And I get. That's like a. You know, the clinicians and the professionals that aren't understanding it. It's because there's no patients that are speaking about it because it's so uncomfortable to speak about. So it goes, you know, it funnels through in all the different ways. And the more that we do this and that, you know, all of us do this, those people will come out and be like this. And also, I. One thing I wanted to mention is a Lot of people tell me how they go to therapy and they speak about every theme apart from the one theme that you know, they're the most ashamed of. And that I think in turn creates more shame in you so that you're then hiding from, you know, and hiding that specific theme. And then, oh my God, I feel guilty that I'm lying about this theme and keeping it to myself. And I kind of dodged around the pedophilic one for like a good few weeks and then I finally said it and it was like, oh my God, if you're going to an OCD professional, or any professional for that matter, and they've understand ocd, they will understand your darkest, darkest ones that you'll never want to say because they understand the ones that are easier for you to say. They will understand all of it because it's all the same thing as you said.
- [45:40]
B
So and what do we know? OCD attacks the things that are important to you.
- [45:45]
A
Yeah.
- [45:45]
B
If you wanted to harm children, you would not feel so much guilt about these 14, you know, these years of your life spent on something like this.
- [45:53]
A
You'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that sounds fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [45:59]
B
What do you want to do next with your story and you know, your influence on the world of ocd? What's your goal?
- [46:06]
A
Whoa, I haven't been asked that before. That's a new one.
- [46:08]
B
Like questions.
- [46:10]
A
Normally I'm like the same thing. I want to kind of, I probably should my work, but I kind of want to move into a full time role, you know, in an organization that is, you know, helping people with OCD or mental illness in general and like, use my knowledge of like, like content and social media, but also like my like, passion for the advocacy and kind of like one role, it would be my dream, like, future situation. But also just like, I'm already being very honest, but it's kind of getting more and more honest and just like say it all and like say it to the people that are going to be able to spread it far and wide. And I'm actually going on a like talk morning show in the UK soon, which is going to be like that most people, it's going to be like everywhere. So like that's my goal, is that every single person that knows or is a human that knows what OCD is will know that ocd. Maybe they don't get it, but they're like, OCD isn't what we thought it was. And that's my goal. Not that every single person will get it and go, that Sounds awful. And like, we understand that, you know, you're not a pedophile. Like, not everyone's going to know that and understand that. But I want everyone to know that it's not just cleaning and thingy and that, like. Yeah. And also for people to mention to their loved ones and then they. Because also, like, I've messaged from people that you would never, I never would think, have suffered with this. And like, it's the most, you know, random of people, people that you would, you would never think that are struggling. And so people, people, if people even turning to their friends, say, oh, have you seen this article about this girl? You know, what a freak. But that person could need to hear that. So that is still helping. And that's what I'm going to keep on doing, hopefully.
- [48:00]
B
Fantastic. Well, Molly, thank you so much for being here today. Really appreciate it. And for being so open and honest. I know it's going to help a lot of people to hear this and hopefully get them into treatment too.
- [48:12]
A
Yes. Yeah. Thank you so much.
- [48:15]
B
Cool. And thank all of you for watching the get to Know OCD podcast. If you're interested in help for OCD, you can check us out@nocd.com that's nocd.com we work in the US and Canada and Australia and the UK, actually. So if you're wanting some help, we're here to assist. Go to nocd.com and let us get you set up with a licensed therapist who knows what to do to help you with OCD and related conditions. And remember, be better to yourself than your OCD ever would be. We'll see you again soon. Thanks, everybody.