OCD Told Me I Was in Control (I Wasn't)

Summary

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Get To Know OCD – Episode Summary

Podcast: Get to Know OCD
Host: Dr. Patrick McGrath (Chief Clinical Officer, NOCD)
Guest: Carrie Osborne (Director of Member Experience, NOCD; Author of The Obsessive Outsider)
Episode: OCD Told Me I Was in Control (I Wasn't)
Date: April 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode is a candid and insightful conversation between Dr. Patrick McGrath and Carrie Osborne, centering on Carrie's lived experience with OCD—from onset in late adolescence after a traumatic event, through years of misdiagnoses and ineffective therapies, to finally undergoing Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) and gaining a new understanding of life with OCD. Carrie shares how OCD convinced her she was gaining "control," though in reality, the disorder was dictating her life. The discussion covers the complexities of discovering effective treatment, navigating well-intentioned but unhelpful support, the process of writing her book, and persevering through depression and suicidal thoughts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Carrie’s OCD Onset and Early Experience

• Background: Carrie lived OCD-free until age 17, when a serious car accident became a turning point. While physically unscathed, the trauma led to the sudden and noticeable emergence of OCD symptoms.
• First signs: Began obsessing over hair loss, where a perfectly ordinary behavior (brushing hair) became associated with catastrophic magical thinking (“If I do/don’t do this, I’ll lose less hair.”)
• Progression: OCD behaviors quickly became pervasive—dictating what Carrie could do, wear, or eat, and resulting in isolation, hoarding, and significant lifestyle changes.
  • “OCD started telling me what I could wear, what I could eat, what I couldn’t, what I could step on, what I couldn’t, what I could throw away, when I could shower, when I could brush my hair, when I couldn’t.” (Carrie, 06:16)

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2. The Illusion of Control

• Belief in OCD as a ‘gift’: Carrie described how OCD initially masqueraded as a source of power and control, even convincing her that therapists couldn’t understand her unique “gift.”
  • “OCD convinced me that it was this gift that other people…couldn’t understand it as a therapist or as a specialist. Because you weren’t given that gift.” (Carrie, 05:19)
  • Dr. McGrath counters: “It’s a shitty gift, by the way.” (05:37)
• Magic Thinking: The compulsions were an attempt to control the uncontrollable—something heightened by both trauma and her faith background, complicating recovery.

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3. Diagnosis and Therapy Journey

• Misdiagnosis & Frustration: Early therapy focused on “rebellious teen” explanations. OCD was rarely named, and ERP was never introduced despite multiple clinicians.
  • “They put me into therapy for being a rebellious teenager…OCD was never even on the—We never even heard of it.” (Carrie, 07:06)
• Breakthrough with ERP: Carrie finally encountered a specialist at the Gateway Institute who immediately recognized the need for ERP and candidly challenged her resistance.
  • “He was the first person that was like, ‘I’m not dealing with your BS…You need intensive ERP.’” (Carrie, 09:52)
• Transformation via ERP: Initially skeptical and adversarial, Carrie found ERP uniquely effective once she committed, citing the importance of specialist guidance and honesty.
  • “I’m so grateful for it because he was not willing to let me sit there and talk about life’s problems…He saw right through it.” (Carrie, 12:28)

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4. Living with Uncertainty

• The Shift: ERP taught Carrie to tolerate—not eliminate—uncertainty. Accepting that “it’s okay to not know” was fundamentally unnatural but eventually transformative.
  • “I remember having to tell myself, do the opposite of what your brain tells you to do…If you have any doubt, it’s OCD, treat it as OCD.” (Carrie, 15:12)
• Letting go of rationalization: Carrie emphasized that trying to rationalize OCD’s demands was fruitless:
  • “If I try to rationalize…what you just talked about, I won’t come out of it okay. But what I do and the way that I've learned to live my life is—Yeah, yeah. No, I don’t know.” (Carrie, 20:09)
• Faith & Acceptance: Drew parallels between faith and OCD management—acceptance over understanding or control.

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5. Support Networks and “Accommodation”

• Family & Friends: Carrie’s loved ones at times enabled compulsions until properly educated. Education and boundaries became crucial.
  • “When I really got into it seriously, then it was up to me to educate my people…A few of my closest people would go into my therapist…That really helped too.” (Carrie, 22:28)

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6. Writing The Obsessive Outsider

• Motivation: Frustrated by a lack of relatable, honest resources as a young person, Carrie sought to write the book she wished she could have found.
• Process: Started as humorous fiction, evolved into raw, direct author’s notes addressed to fellow sufferers.
  • “I realized those author’s notes where it was just me speaking to the reader—very direct, unfiltered—was the best part of the whole thing…If I make it out of this alive…I’m going to see what I can do about that book.” (Carrie, 24:23)
• NOCD Connection: The book’s impact led Carrie to further advocacy and, ultimately, her current professional role.

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7. Depression and Suicidal Thoughts

• The Overlap: Carrie bravely discusses suicidal ideation—not as an OCD theme but as existential exhaustion from endless suffering and lack of hope.
• Coping: Key motivators for staying alive were her parents, and later, her dog. Found importance in “grounding” and looking for even small reasons to persevere.
  • “That’s always been my justification of not taking my life…How do I find values bigger than OCD?…Sometimes they say, what are five things you can touch or smell or see, and just regrounding myself…” (Carrie, 30:15)
• Hope and Perspective: Moments of joy, like a later family barbecue, reminded Carrie of the value of holding on through hard times.
• Dr. McGrath’s Reflection: On the concept of “terminal uniqueness”—the false belief that you’re utterly alone and beyond help.

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8. Ongoing Management and Self-Acceptance

• OCD as a “traveler”: Carrie likens OCD to a companion she didn’t invite but who sometimes rides along. Acceptance—not analysis or resistance—helps.
  • “If the traveler comes with me, enjoy the ride, bruh. You’re not with me. I’m on this journey…But I also recognize that the work I put in determines the power of the traveler.” (Carrie, 37:41)
• Not a Cure; A Partnership: Consistent effort in response prevention keeps the “traveler” in check. Some days are better than others, and that’s okay.
  • “Even in dealing with what I have in overcoming so much of ocd, I still battle with it pretty regularly.” (Carrie, 36:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On OCD’s “Gift”:

  • "It's a shitty gift, by the way." – Dr. McGrath (05:37)

• On Family Perception:

  • “They put me into therapy for being a rebellious teenager…OCD was never even on the—we never even heard of it.” – Carrie (07:06)

• On the difference with ERP:

  • “This is not a therapy where you're going to talk about your feelings. This is a therapy where you're going to experience your feelings and learn that you can live with them.” – Dr. McGrath (14:04)

• On the role of a specialist:

  • “Having a true specialist...is the game changer here.” – Carrie (17:14)

• On compulsions and recovery:

  • “Once you've cracked that...if I give into one compulsion, just like taking one drink [for an alcoholic],...I'm down a rabbit hole.” – Carrie (18:32)

• On letting go of needing answers:

  • “Once I release the grasp on, I’m going to figure out OCD’s path...I started to let go...that is the key…” – Carrie (20:35)

• On being there for others:

  • “You owe it to yourself to try…if you haven’t tried ERP…you could potentially shave years off your life of torture…” – Carrie (38:43)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |---------------|--------------------------------------------------------| | 01:19 | Discussion of Carrie’s lived experience begins | | 03:44 | Onset of OCD and magical thinking after trauma | | 05:02 | Struggle with control and “godlike powers” of OCD | | 06:41 | OCD dictating all facets of life | | 09:52 | Discovery of ERP and start of transformative treatment | | 12:28 | Comparison between ERP and talk therapy | | 15:12 | Learning to live with uncertainty | | 20:09 | Letting go of rationalization and seeking answers | | 21:34 | Role of family/friends in compulsions | | 24:23 | Writing The Obsessive Outsider | | 29:02 | Discussion on depression and suicidal thoughts | | 33:14 | “Terminal uniqueness” and isolation with OCD | | 34:30 | Ongoing acceptance and day-to-day management | | 37:41 | The “traveler” metaphor for OCD | | 38:43 | Message to those considering therapy/ERP |

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Closing Message

Carrie’s journey demonstrates both the insidiousness of OCD’s logic and the hope that comes from effective, evidence-based treatment and support. She encourages those listening not to wait as long as she did for specialized help, emphasizing that ERP—when done with a committed, knowledgeable guide—can be life-changing.

Final advice:
“You owe it to yourself to try…if you haven’t tried ERP…what’s the worst that could happen if you do? Because just maybe, just maybe, you’ll hear stories like this and realize: what if they’re telling the truth?” – Carrie (38:43)

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For support and resources:
Visit nocd.com

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hi, everyone, and welcome once again to another episode of the get to know OCD podcast. I'm Dr. Patrick McGrath, the Chief Clinical Officer here at NOCD. If you're looking for help for OCD or related conditions, check us [e-mail] that's n o c d dot com. Today I am joined by Carrie Osborne. Hi, Carrie. How are you today?

[A]

I am doing fine. How are you? Thanks for having me.

[B]

Thanks for being here. I am well. And you are the director of member experience here at nocd. You have lived experience with ocd. You're an author. It's. Your book is called the Obsessive Outsider. And I'm wondering. Well, a lot of things I'm wondering, and so maybe that's why we're doing a podcast with you.

[A]

But I'm surprised we haven't done this before. It's taken us, what, six years to do.

[B]

I. Well, they kept asking, and I said no. And then finally, then there weren't any more people on the docket says, okay,

[A]

fine, we'll do it lots for the work comic.

[B]

All right, we can have Carrie. No, no. I, I. Yeah, I don't. I don't know why we didn't do this earlier. Actually. That's. That's a great question.

[A]

I'm glad we're doing it now.

[B]

I have to ask someone. But anyway, I think I want to start with your lived experience. And then what leads you to write a book about your lived experience with. With ocd? That's where. That's where I want to go first. And we'll kind of. We'll kind of build from there, maybe.

[A]

So, lived experience. Let's take it back. So I. I lived the first 17 years of my life with no glimpses of OCD. No.

[B]

The good years. Right. Yeah.

[A]

The truth. I thought. I thought I didn't know how good I had it until that was gone. Yeah. 17 years with no clear obsessions or compulsions. I think I had, like, as you know me, a little bit of an obsessive personality. You know what I mean? Like, it's just a tad. But it wasn't anything distinct. Think there was no if then. And then I was in a car accident that was really, really bad, and I was the only one who was not physically injured. And so everyone's like, oh, Carrie's off scot free. Well, psychologically, I was not off scot free. So everyone physically healed, got out of the hospital, and it was like, well, why was I unscathed, if you will? But I wasn't And I'm still suffering. So 20 years later, I'm still suffering from that. And honestly, we don't know. No genetic history.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

None. I mean, just three months since that car accident, three months later, my mom said I was a different daughter.

[B]

Wow. All right.

[A]

So. Yeah. And it just came on one day as natural as the sun rising. I mean, it was. There was no. I didn't notice a change at all. I did not notice that, like they say, like, when you start a medication, the people around you sometimes notice before you do. I think it was similar to that where my family started noticing my erratic behaviors before I did. And to me, they were just very natural. But, yeah, I just started. It started actually with my hair. And one day I was just brushing my hair, and it felt like too. I just looked down at my brush, and I don't even know if I ever looked down at my brush, but I just remember getting a distinct thought that there was too much hair in that hairbrush.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I think that I started paying attention to it, and I. The reality was I really was losing more hair than usual. But because it was an unknown security blanket, something snatched onto that and would not let it go. And so I did all of the physical things I could do. Blood work, doctors. And then I think that my brain was inherently searching for more control. And I think that's where the O. C. D. Latched on. And then it became magical thinking O. C. D. And there was this connection that if I do this or don't do this, then I will lose less hair. And that's really and truly how it started. Then I started obeying it, for lack of a better term, thought. I saw improvement, and that strengthened the belief in that magical thinking. And then it moved on to everything else that I needed that I wanted control on in my life. I was like, well, I can. And as a Christian, that was really hard too. Right. Because I all of a sudden felt like I could control things through my compulsions. And that was also. It's still something that I definitely struggle with, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. Taking on some godlike powers there with. With ocd. Right. It's. That's. That's the. The trick, right, where it's like, oh, you. You have powers now. Look, you can make things happen that other people can't and have a special way in the world or something like that. Yeah.

[A]

Like, I was given this gift, and then for a while, OCD convinced me that it was this gift that other people. You couldn't understand it as a therapist or as A specialist. Because you weren't given that gift.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And. Oh, that one got me for years and years. Right.

[B]

It's a shitty gift, by the way. Yeah.

[A]

And. And it frames it as though it's the opposite. I mean. Oh. So, yeah, that. That was kind of how the lived experience started. And then because I started to build that foundational belief in, oh, this works, I have powers, if you will, then that just got more and more of a rain on me until I went off to college two years later. Got accommodations to live alone, which isolated me. Started hoarding because I started putting emotional contamination on. Couldn't throw things away. Everything had a connection. OC started telling me what I could wear, what I could eat, what I couldn't, what I could step on, what I couldn't, what I could throw away when I could shower, when I could brush my hair, when I couldn't. Started to get deeply into hygiene. And then pretty soon I was a completely different person than the first 17 years of my life. Yeah.

[B]

How do you figure it out? How do you. How do you come to the realization this is OCD?

[A]

Well, this was also like 2008. So you don't. Right. So what ended up happening is because my. My compulsions were very erratic, and because it was magical thinking, I would. There. They made no sense. So I would do things like leave a trail of food or something on the floor. Like, it would put food under my pillow. I mean, here I am. I was. It's just so weird to think about now, of course, but at the time, it was so justifiable. And so my parents started thinking I was a rebellious teenager. And so they put me into therapy for being a rebellious teenager. Because they would say, carrie, pick up those Cheez its on the floor. And I would say, no, I'm not doing it. Because the cost of me picking those up and giving into the. Absolutely not. So I would rather get it. Punish me however you want to. So then I went to multiple therapists. They're trying to figure out OCD was never even on the. We never even heard of it. Right. Like, except for what was played in movies in the 90s, you weren't washing

[B]

your hands all the time, so.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Or cleanliness, which was the opposite. Right. Hygiene was what I was running away from.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

Naturally. So why would anyone put that together? So anyways, I went through a series of. And then my parents were like, well, the therapist didn't work, so now let's get in front of a psychologist in LA and get her tested for Everything known to man. And then it was psychiatry, and it was, you know, just a bunch of throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticked. Stuck. Sticked. I don't think that's the word sticking.

[B]

Stickified. Sure, yeah, whatever.

[A]

Do I speak English?

[B]

I know.

[A]

Anyways, and then I remember one therapist who was just a talk therapist was like, some of your tendencies feel like ocd. And I remember being like, okay, but no one ever brought up ERP I mean. And so what I ended up doing was I would capitalize because I figured out very quickly that if I did talk therapy, I'd go talk about myself and my problems for that week and my crushes and my life. And I was like, well, this person listens to me, and I'm not paying for it. So fine, you want to take me? You want to push me into therapy? Mom and dad go for it. And I started to get worse and worse and worse. And so they were pulled back, and they're like, wait a second. We're putting all this money forward. So then they would come into my therapist and go, why is she getting worse if. If we're paying you all this money? And then ended up moving to college, going through that, and got set up with an o. C. D therapist in college. Never mentioned ERP to me. And I kid you not, this is how I ended up getting connected to the o. C D Institute that I did go to for intensive. Next door in Orange county, where I went to college to my current therapist was the Gateway institute.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[A]

And at the time, it was just very, very small. It was just Jim Sterner, and it said ocd Specialized. And I remember one day, I think we just knocked on the door, and within a week. Anyways, I just remember. This is really interesting because I remember I was like, oh, great. Another therapist. And I went and sat down, and in the first, he. He just totally cut all my BS and he was like, you need int. You need intensive. ERP And I said, I need what now? What kind of money ployed are you trying to talk my family into now? Right? And he was like, I'm not going to see you. I'm not going to work with you unless you really. I mean, he said it in a way that spoke to me, but he basically was the first person that was like, I'm not dealing with your BS he knew that I could see right through it, right? So I was like, what's ERP and then I. When he started pitching the intensive, I was like, you just want money? I really thought that you wanna see me three times a week? Okay. Um. And so, because we were out of options at that point, my parents were like, do it. Do whatever it takes. And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna prove this guy wrong. Cause he's trying to test me. So. And then I started up with him, but he was like, I will not see you week to week. You have to do this this many times a week. And then I can guarantee these are. Will be your results. And I'm like, dang, this guy's good at selling stuff. And by George, I ended up agreeing to it. And I really thought that I was going to outsmart him and I would save my compulsions and like, make up for them later and all this until I really couldn't anymore. And that took me probably six to eight weeks of three, two, three times a week of. We would work. We worked hard. And pretty soon I didn't want him to know it, but I did start to see change. Or like, my hair wouldn't fall up or the bad thing wouldn't happen. But then it. And then it would get more complicated in Ultimatums, and it would be very confusing, but the bad, worst case scenarios were not happening. And that's when I started to lock in and I was like. And then OCD started becoming more talked about and widely spoken about, and things really picked up from there.

[B]

Fascinating.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you do. Erp. You're introduced to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's it. What's it like compared to all the other therapies? You've done?

[A]

So different. And I'm really. I think back to the way that he pitched it to me and dealt with me and my attitude. Um, and I'm so grateful for it because he was not willing to just let me sit there and talk about life's problems and how I knew what was going on, because I didn't. He knew. He saw right through it. And honestly, that candidness of, like, it wasn't egotistical. It wasn't like, oh, I'm the specialist, you're not. It was very matter of fact, like, I. I don't need to treat you, Perry. I don't have to. Like, you don't have to come. I don't really care, you know? And then I was like, oh, okay. And so he was like, why don't you just do this? Just do it. Bring a hairbrush next time. And I thought, yeah, right. Or we would. I couldn't step on certain. I have to watch the ground as I walk to make sure. That, like, you know, every step I took was not in a bad step. We go out front and he'd say, walk. And he would just watch me. He'd say, we'll be here as long as it takes, Carrie. Just walk. And we would do different things, and we'd joke, we'd make humor out of it. And then all of a sudden, it became less world ending and we started to see progress. But I thought he was out of his mind at first when he was like, dude, he would. Because he would use what I was telling him. And I'm like, you're using it against me. Well, he. But he was very strict. He was a special specialist in erp, and so we saw results very quickly because I was finally doing the right approach to ocd.

[B]

There's a lot of different stages there for you, right? There's. There's the, you're lying to me, you want money. There's more belief in ERP now than there was back then. Right, Obviously. And much more knowledge and awareness of it. But you touched on the thing that I think is the most important part, which is this is not a therapy where you're going to talk about your feelings. This is a therapy where you're going to experience your feelings and learn that you can live with them in all of your compulsions. I'm going to make an assumption here. You tell me what you think the goal was. I'm going to find this relief. I'm going to get these answers. In doing erp, the goal is I'm going to learn to live with the questions and the doubt. What was that shift like for you to go from I need to know everything to it's okay to not know. It's okay to have doubt and uncertainty.

[A]

Very unnatural to this day. It's very, very unnatural. I think it goes against, you know, a lot of your fundamental initiations of a person. So it was a retraining, if I may, of the mind, like, truly. I mean, I remember having to tell myself, do the opposite of what your brain tells you to do. If you don't know what to do in this situation, just do the opposite, Carrie, because it's your ocd. And he. We would work on, if you have any doubt, it's ocd, treat it as ocd. Because I get hung up on everything, like, well, this is me. It was such a natural, wasn't a voice, it was me. So I was, like, not understanding the difference. And so it was very unnatural to reshape that mindset until you see it Work. And then when you start to go, was that just like a one off or. Or did nothing happen? Or, you know, or. Or did I get over that? Like, oh my. Or I would remember like a really bad compulsion or obsession from the week prior and I would think, oh my gosh, I haven't even thought about. Wait, what? And that's when I really started to lock in, because I was thinking in that moment, I will never get over this. I will never forgive this. I'd have to figure this out. And then a week later, it moved on to the next thing. And then all of a sudden it was on to the next thing and it was like, wait a second. This. Hold on. And then I started to realize the patterns of ocd. He helped me recognize, like you need a specialist to really point them out because when you're just in your own brain and OCD is literally working against you, it's very, very hard to over compensate. So you. It having a true specialist. I will preach that till the day I die. Is the game changer here to go? Hold on, Carrie, let me challenge you on that. And I'd be like, o. Okay, challenge me. And then he. And then they. He would. And then I started to challenge myself because on my own time. And that's when I started. And then it clicked, Dr. McGrath, that maybe this was a disorder and not a gift. What if. What if this was actually what everyone's telling me it is? And so then I started to say, well, what do I. The risk that I'm taking is giving up this gift, if you will, but at the sacrifice of losing how many hours a day of compulsions? So which one. Which path do we want to go here? You want to keep your gift and perform 800 compulsions an hour and not be able to get a job and live your life? Or do you want to settle for a less than ungifted life, if you will, and pretend like it's O, C, D? So yeah, it was. It was years and years. I mean, that this took to. I still battle with it tremendously not. But not. Not at all to the degree because we cracked that foundation through ERP therapy. And once you crack it, it's a kind of. I always refer to it like being an alcoholic or a drug addict. Like once you've cracked, cracked that it. It reminds me of the same type of thing. Like if I give into one compulsion, just like taking one drink, no matter how long it's been, I can't tell you it is like that I'm down a Rabbit hole.

[B]

It. It grabs you, doesn't it? There are people who will say, carrie, just stop thinking it. I mean, really, just. Why don't you just, you know, not even be worried about it anymore?

[A]

You mean my parents?

[B]

Hi, mom and dad.

[A]

Every day.

[B]

Yeah. How do you. How did you rationalize that for yourself? How do you go from being someone who would not throw a Cheez it on the ground and leave it there? Right. Kind of if I move it, all my hair will fall out to. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And. And I think that that's the hard part for people who don't really understand the mind in a way that it could only work one way. And if it's not, you should just tell yourself to make it work one way, and then it'll be that way. I liken it to this. I'd be interested in your thought. It's kind of like your hair growing. I got a haircut yesterday, but I don't feel like today it's any longer than it was yesterday even. Even though it is. And it's very slight. But in a few weeks, I'll be like, I could use a haircut again. That's how I see it. Was it that way for you or was it just suddenly like, today, Cheez its go in the box, but tomorrow, oh, yeah, they should be on the ground because otherwise my hair will fall out. How did the progression happen?

[A]

It's so mumble jumbled and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, even. You know what? What I finally credit a lot of my personal success in conquering OCD to is I just. If I try to rationalize what you just talked about, I won't come out of it okay. But what I do and the way that I've learned to live my life is. Yeah, yeah. No, I don't know. It's.

[B]

There you go. Yeah.

[A]

Very much like my faith. It's like I don't have all the answers. You can grill me all day long, but I. My faith remains. And so I'm not going to go challenge you on whether or not something is real or isn't. Same with my ocd. I'm just going to go, this is the cards I've been dealt. How am I going to live each day to not despise my life? And even because in the beginning I was. I wanted to, I would challenge my therapist. I would be like, I. I would try to catch this. It's never ending. And so once I release the grasp on, I'm going to figure out OCD's path and realize that it's just this like ambiguous thing that I started to let go and go, I don't need all the answers. And that is the key to like actually getting ahead and like living your life, in my opinion.

[B]

Were other people trying to do compulsions with you to help you, to soothe you, and was it hard for them to stop doing that once ERP started, for them to learn that that actually wasn't being very helpful?

[A]

Well, I would do, I wouldn't tell them that they should. So for a long time I would utilize my friends especially, you know, but my parents caught on and that was not cool because then, but then, bless them, they would then think it was OCD when it literally wasn't. And I would be like, mom, it's literally. This is not ocd. I need you to just hear me out. And she's like, I think that's ocd, so I'm not gonna, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, great. Because she couldn't trust me because how many times had I lied in the past?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah. But then when I really got into it, seriously, then it was up to me to educate my people that I was relying on and say, hey, when I do this, I need you to do X. I don't want you to, but I need you to. And then that. And even a few of my closest people would go into my therapist and sit down and learn from my therapist how to help me if I was around them a lot. And that really helped too, because then it wasn't manipulated through me at all.

[B]

A lot of people have ocd. Not everybody decides to write a book about it. Yeah, but you did. Where did that come from? And what was, what was that path for you?

[A]

Yeah. Sometimes I still can't believe I, I, if you told me to do that today, I don't think I could. Like, I think I just had something. I just remember, like when it's 2008 and you go to, you know, you go to Barnes and Noble to try to learn more about something, right? And I remember my parents also going, it was just the classic case of rebellious 17 year old parents trying to help. Thank God that they even tried. And we couldn't find any really good books that were relatable. They were so clinically based that I was like, dude, I. Because I didn't even think it was ocd. Remember? Then I remember somewhere along the lines of when it started to click in ERP I remember I liked to write for fun. And that was part of what my Major was in. So I started writing, like, kind of a comical story with characters. I always. If I could put humor on it, that's how I got through most things.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I started making these characters and, you know, starting to, like, write a little bit, and it was, like, really funny. And then I started doing these, what I called author's notes at the end, where I would break character and I would just say I would do something about ocd. That was, like, a really good truth. And then the more chapters I wrote, I realized that those author's notes where it was just me speaking to the reader, very direct, unfiltered, kind of just sometimes too direct, that was the best part of the whole thing. And so I scrapped any of the characters, and it became just me to another person suffering from ocd. And when I realized there was no books like that at the time on. On the shelves, I thought, if I make it out of this alive and I don't take my life out of this hellhole, I'm going to see what I can do about that book. And so I had a little bit of a manuscript, graduated college, went off, did my first career. And then when that went off the rails, I didn't have anything to my name. I was like, who? What? Who? What? And who am I? I went to college, I tried to do everything right, but I don't really have a what's my passion? And I had dinner with a friend from college, and she was like, I don't get how you don't see you need to finish your manuscript. And I thought, that's crazy. You can't write a book unless you're someone that's famous. Like, how would I even write a book? I mean, nowadays it's so different. Anyone can write a book. Back then, it just. It was like, how do I get the attention of a publishing company? How do I. How do I do this? And I was very intimidated by it. But I ended up moving home, and I worked for a couple of years until I felt like I was saying the things that I hadn't heard anyone else say out loud that were just very brutally honest of what I felt like I needed to hear as the little brat that I was transparently early on. So I wrote a pretty harsh book. And even now, sometimes I go read it and I'm like, I don't know if I agree with you, sis. Like, now I look back at it, and I'm like, I don't know that. At the time, I was so passionate about it, about making sure that people knew about erp that was like a whole point. And then what ended up happening, ironically, the crossover into no CD was that I wrote the book, um, sent it to Stephen. He wrote some stuff about it. The CEO of no City and a series of different people and I. It started to gain traction, especially internationally. So then I finally had educate. I finally had helped educate. And. But I didn't have the solution because biggest problems were still O C, D specialists were still hours from you. Potentially. Insurance was not accepted at the time, and nothing was virtual. And no CD solved all three of those big, major problems at the time. So I started just referring people to no cd. And their outcomes were incredible. And that just spiraled and spiraled until finally I came on board here. So it was almost like the book was my vindication against ocd. And then that helped me lead other people to what the actual solution is. Because you can only educate so much before you need, like, an actual solution. Right.

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's awesome. You. I want to go back, though, to one thing you said, because it's a topic that comes up, but I don't think is really discussed enough where you said, if I make it through this, you know, and I don't think we talk enough about people with OCD and suicidal thoughts. Not. Yes, OCD can take on a theme of, what if I were to harm myself? But OCD also very often comes with pretty significant depression for people, because one of the definitions of depression is losing interest or pleasure in things you once enjoyed. OCD attacks the things that you enjoy. You don't do them anymore, or you do them completely compulsively or to deal with them with compulsions. And so not uncommon to experience depression and probably to see your life being like, if this is the way my life is going to be forever, I don't know that I want to be around here anymore. How was. How did you get through that experience? Because undoubtedly those thoughts were there for you. Yeah.

[A]

And they certainly were not a theme that I experienced. It was truly far from being all consumed and not seeing a way out. Right. And the other thing was, is I was like, 19 by the time I was having those thoughts. And you just don't. The Internet, we didn't have chat GPT. There wasn't, you know, an Internet therapist. There wasn't people to talk to about this. And so you're relying on your own mind, which is betraying you, to even address the point of living. And so for. For me, it went back to fundament. I mean, and I'll be totally honest. If it wasn't for my parents, I. There, I. There was. That's always been my justification of not taking my life has always been, I cannot, even if I'm not here anymore, I cannot do it to them. And even now, like my dog, I don't have kids or anything. And that. I know. Don't you dare say anything negative about dogs.

[B]

Me? What are you talking. I would never say anything negative about it, though.

[A]

I know you don't understand this, but, like, the thought of. Of that. I mean, I. I don't know. So that's the type of thing that kept me fighting was how do I find values bigger than ocd? Because when you value ocd, and there was times where I valued OCD far more than my family, I chose OCD every single second of every single day for years. And thankfully, it never won in those battle field moments. But there's also times where you almost disassociate. It can get so bad. And you. Thankfully, I always kind of came back. But grounding myself in. You know, sometimes they say, like, what are five? Literally, what are five things you can touch or smell or see? And just regrounding myself, I don't even know if that's a good piece of advice, but I would just find things like, what's the next thing to live for?

[B]

Yeah. Here's the thing. I don't mind mindfulness and grounding and diaphragmatic breathing and muscle relaxation. I just don't want people doing them during an ERP exercise. Right. I. Because I want you fully engaged in the ERP when you're doing the erp, but don't mind if people do that.

[A]

I just meant when. When it was the darkest thoughts.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Not during erp, but when the thoughts were so. Or it was just like, hold on, the OCD isn't even touching me right now because I don't even feel anything at all.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's when I would.

[B]

Of course. And you're here and they worked and that's, you know. Yeah, that's the most important piece. Right.

[A]

But it's important to talk about to your point, because what. How do you get out of those? And I think it's important to remember those are very powerful moments. But this too shall pass. And they do pass. And then all of a sudden you're at, you know, a barbecue with a bunch of friends and family a month later, and you're like, oh, my gosh, I would have missed this. I would have missed this moment. And you Know certain things like that, and then that those then help you for the next time happens. In my experience.

[B]

I had a colleague use a phrase that I. I stole. I loved. He talked about this notion of the feeling of terminal uniqueness. Right. I'm the only person in the world who feels this way or has these thoughts. No one else will ever understand. There's no therapist that can help me. That. That vast alone void one finds oneself in at times. And I'm gonna bet you were there at times, right? Where it just was like, does anyone else really know what's going on in my life?

[A]

It. The vastness of that pit is overwhelming when you're in it for sure, and finding your way to mentally climb out of that. And then. And then all of a sudden it's not as vast, but you've got to figure. And it's unique, I think, for everyone. Like, you have to find. You have to go so deep inside of yourself to find what is going to be the thing that gets me out of this. And you just try everything until something clicks because you have nothing left to lose at that point.

[B]

Yeah. Now, your work with no cd, your advocacy, your ability to have a relationship with yourself where you're not always doubting your thoughts, you still do, Avi. I mean, you know, let's be honest, right? This. This is not a cure we talk about. This is a learning to live with experience. How have you now learned to live with OCD versus let it take over?

[A]

Oh, well, it hasn't felt like I've had much of a choice. It's just there. But I do have a choice in the way that I, you know, respond to it. And so I have. And sometimes that go there. I go through periods now where I forget I have OCD for maybe a period of time. And. And then it just. It all depends on my anxiety. And so if things are really anxious with my work or with something in my personal life with someone close to me being sick or, you know, anything, man, I can go down fast. And so managing that. You and I were just joking before this call about, um, I had something hanging on the wall behind me, and it was. I wanted to take it down. And I had a obsessive thought that if I take it down, something bad specifically in my head would happen. And so I put it right back. I hung the purse back up. Right. Because I knew that that was going against my O. C. D. And so that is how I. I have to pause a lot of the time and make a conscious decision to do the opposite of what my osuni wants me to do. So that. Because, again, if I give in, there's 20 more right behind that. You know, I still. Even in dealing with what I have in overcoming so much of ocd, I still battle with it pretty regularly. Right. Uh, and it just depends on the day and where my anxiety is focused on. And it's just really important in those times that I pause and I do what. What Carrie wants to do and differentiate that between what OCD wants Carrie to do.

[B]

Right, yeah, that's a good point. Right? Yeah. Because OCD always wants Carrie to do the compulsion. Because OCD eats compulsions for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. So that's why OCD wants the compulsion.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Before we end, Carrie, there's a few other things that I think that are just really important, and that is the notion of how do you then accept I have OCD and I'm going to live my life with ocd, and I'm going to have a career with ocd, and I'm going to have a move in my life to a new place on my own, and I going to be a dog mom with ocd. And it would be all these how, you know, you. You bring all of that into the world, but you've got this traveler that kind of comes along with you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That you wish would fall out of the trunk and roll off, roll away. Right. But. But now you're. You've resolved to the fact that, okay, yeah, this is my life, and. And I accept.

[A]

I just don't. I don't sit and analyze it.

[B]

Yeah, there you go. I like that.

[A]

For me, like, that's truthfully just what it is. If the traveler comes with me. Enjoy the ride, bruh. Like, I mean, like, you're not with me. Right. Like, I'm. I'm on this journey. I understand that, but I also recognize that the work I put in determines the power of the traveler.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So if I continuously put in the work and. And go directly against it, then the traveler learns where the trunk is real quick. And that's kind of how I get through the day to day. I don't think too far in advance, and I don't look too far behind me is what I've kind of learned.

[B]

Yeah, I like that. That makes a lot of sense. There are people out there with OCD who listen to this, and maybe they're even contemplating, should I get therapy? Should I go get some help? Should I do erp. What. What do you want? A message to those folks?

[A]

I'm that message is one of my biggest passions in life now, because I was so that person. Even the opposite, I was so against any type of therapy because I just really thought that I outsmarted it. And I would say that you could potentially shave years off of your life by. Of torture if you, like, what if you make the move? And I would always think, like, okay, well, what's the worst thing that could happen if you do it? For me, it was giving up control. Did not want to give up my. Because my OCD gave me control, in my opinion. So if I were to say to the person listening right now, what. What's the worst you can lose? You know, they could easily say all of the torturous. It's torture. But it's control. You still feel like you have control over something. Why would I give that up? And I battled with that also, until I saw the results. And you can't see the results unless you show up and you do the work. And it's painful to continue to always say that, but it really is. It's. No one. No one's forcing you to do this. No one's forcing you not to do it. And even if they are, like. Even if you're like my parents, and you're like, hey, if you want to live in our home, you will do this therapy, at some point, if you put your guards down and you say, okay, I'm gonna make this investment because it could change my entire course of my life. Because just maybe. Just because you hear stories like this and you go, what if they're telling the truth? Like, what if they really experienced that? They do. I did. And I think that it is more you owe it to yourself to try. If you've tried a lot of other things. If you haven't tried erp, and even if you have and you're like, erp doesn't work, you didn't do it right. Sorry, I don't believe it. I just don't believe you did it right. Or maybe you didn't have the best therapist to create your hierarchy correctly and be in tune with that, because it's done right. And that's where I think you have to also speak up with your therapist. If it's not bothering you enough, you're not doing it right. And so you have to become your own advocate. And once you do, things start to fall into place pretty quickly.

[B]

Awesome. Carrie Osborne, thank you for being here today on the get to Know OCD podcast. Highly appreciate it, and thank you for your continued work for the OCD Community, the book that you've written and just for being a fun colleague and friend as well.

[A]

So love working here with NOCD and with you and all the wonderful people here who care so much about how we're going to end this mental health crisis.

[B]

Awesome. And if you're looking for help for OCD or related conditions, well, you could check us [e-mail] that's nocd.com we work with people who have OCD and the related conditions like body focused repetitive behaviors work with hoarding body dysmorphic disorder. We do help for people who have trauma and mood conditions, anxiety disorders. So go to nocd.com our care team is waiting to chat with you. We will set you up with a licensed therapist in your state, but we also work in other countries too, like Canada and the UK and Australia. We do take insurance. Thank you once again for listening to another episode of the get to Know OCD podcast. And remember everyone, please be better to yourself than your OCD ever would be. We'll see you again soon.