How to Be More Securely Attached in Relationships with Dr. Amir Levine

Summary

Girls Gotta Eat – Episode Summary
Podcast: Girls Gotta Eat (Dear Media)
Episode: How to Be More Securely Attached in Relationships with Dr. Amir Levine
Date: June 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into attachment theory and how to cultivate a more securely attached life and relationships. The hosts, Ashley Hesseltine and Raina Greenberg, welcome Dr. Amir Levine, psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and co-author of the best-selling book Attached. Dr. Levine shares science-backed insights from his new book Secure and his masterclass, focusing on practical ways anyone can foster secure attachment. The co-hosts also connect these concepts to their personal lives, friendships, and dating, keeping their signature candid and comedic tone throughout.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Personal Updates and Vulnerability (00:29 – 11:35)

• The hosts open with relatable stories about big life transitions (moving, birthdays) and the sense of closing chapters, mixing humor and emotional candor.
• Raina discusses the emotional impact of moving, likening it to a breakup:

  “Even though something’s hard and painful, doesn’t mean that it’s the wrong decision. … It reminds me of breakups.” (03:08 – 03:39)

• Both reflect on the community and support from their listeners during times of change, drawing parallels between house moves, friendships, and romantic relationships.
• Humorous banter, including Raina’s desperate bathroom adventure during her move (06:25), exemplifies their real-life approach.

Female Friendship, Sex, and Openness (11:10 – 29:00)

• The hosts recount a humorous, highly intimate conversation at a bar, analyzing whether friends (or even listeners) can name each other's sexual preferences – a comment on openness unique to their dynamic:

  “I wonder if other girls could do this with their girlfriends. … Your sex life is part of my job also.” (18:56 – 20:13)

• They discuss how conversations about sex and relationships shift with age, seriousness, and life stages, referencing Sex and the City as a parallel for evolving friendship roles (25:34).

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Expert Interview: Dr. Amir Levine

(Host intro: 31:02, Guest joins: 31:32)

The Origins of Attachment Theory (32:22 – 34:48)

• Dr. Levine explains the academic roots of attachment theory, recounting his personal "epiphany" about adult attachment styles and how translating academic language made the concepts widely accessible:

  “I went from seeing relationships in black and white to seeing relationships in color.” (32:29)

• He emphasizes that his contribution was making attachment theory actionable for everyday relationships.

What is Attachment Theory? (35:19 – 39:09)

• The basics:
  • Attachment is a basic human need, as vital as food and water.
  • There are three main styles: Anxious (needs closeness and reassurance), Avoidant (values distance, feels discomfort with too much closeness), and Secure (comfortable with closeness, resilient to distance).
• Dr. Levine notes that people can have different styles with different people, and attachment can change over time and with context.

Notable Quote:

“If it’s a basic need, you can’t say that. Imagine if I were to tell you ... you have to learn to go without food or without water and be fine with it.” (36:14, Dr. Levine)

Attachment Styles Are Not Fixed (39:09 – 41:05)

• Dr. Levine clarifies it’s not “set in stone” – people show different styles with different partners, friends, colleagues, and even pets.
• Mapping attachment: He describes how his new website tool helps visualize your “attachment topography” across relationships.

Becoming More Secure: Five Pillars & CARP (44:30 – 52:30)

• Introducing CARP:
  Consistent, Available, Responsive, Reliable, Predictable – qualities to prioritize in yourself and in others.
  • “You want to learn to be consistent, available, responsive, reliable, and predictable.” (46:01, Dr. Levine)
  • Predictable, in this context, isn’t “boring” but creates crucial safety for the social brain.
  • “For attachment, it’s about safety … we derive our safety from knowing that the people around us are going to be there for us.” (52:30, Dr. Levine)
• *Being "secure" isn’t boring; it creates the foundation for well-being, creative exploration, and resilience — not just in romance, but across all areas of life.

Notable exchange:

Ashley: “We have a negative connotation with predictable...”
Dr. Levine: “When I mean predictable, I mean it from an attachment perspective ... there’s no ghosting surprises.” (50:27 – 52:30)

Minor Interactions Are Major (SIMI) (57:11 – 62:06)

• SIMI: Seemingly Insignificant Minor Interaction
  • Small, everyday gestures (like a good morning text) are powerful for attachment security.
  • A lack of these can send an anxious person into distress, leading to avoidant/anxious spirals (see: weekend together, then no text = anxious panics, avoidant withdraws).
  • Both parties must understand the “logic of attachment” to avoid unnecessary strife.
  • “You don’t get credit forward for closeness ... it’s a radar system.” (57:29)

Tools for Conflict & Growth (62:29 – 86:06)

• Building CARP habits:
  • Avoidants can protect their autonomy by being predictably available and understanding the logic: “This is for you … If you do this little seemi thing ... you bought yourself your whole day.” (64:24)
  • Anxious types can use the “CARP intervention”: directly expressing a need for consistency and responsiveness, then watching how the other person responds (70:52).
  • Outsourcing needs: Recognize it’s normal to fulfill emotional needs via a trusted community rather than a single romantic partner.
• Security is Contagious:
  • Secure friends and partners “prime” us for stability, and our brains adapt over time.
  • “Every simi [minor interaction] is an opportunity for your brain to change.” (84:19)
  • Building a ‘secure village’ is key for both anxious and avoidant types.

On leaving relationships:

• Anxious types shouldn’t tolerate one-sided relationships, but can “wall tennis with love” — offering warm responses when reached out to, but not chasing. For true partnership, needs must be met, or the person risks self-betrayal (74:09).

Argument Rules for Secure Engagement (87:33 – 93:40)

Dr. Levine’s two rules for secure arguments:

1. Only one person is allowed to be upset at a time — the other’s role is to calm and support, not escalate.
2. If both are upset, both apologize — connection matters more than “being right.”

   “Attachment doesn’t care about who’s right...it’s how do I feel connected to you again?” (90:07, Dr. Levine)

Ashley recounts how this approach saved a friendship, affirming that security in conflict is a skill anyone can practice (91:13–93:40).

The Science of Connection and Health (76:50 – 79:17)

• Secure attachment and frequent, positive connectedness are proven to slow biological aging, enhance well-being, and improve physical health — more than expensive supplements or self-reliance trends.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On attachment as a basic need:
  “We attach to other people ... our attachment needs start when we’re born and end ... to the last of our days.” (35:31, Dr. Levine)

• On the role of secure people:
  “I’ve fallen in love with the secures of this world — people who I always used to disregard and not even appreciate.” (48:21, Dr. Levine)

• On small gestures:
  “It’s not about the big things ... our brain ... surveys all the time for the availability of the other person. ... If the thread snaps, you feel very unsettled.” (52:30, Dr. Levine)

• On growth:
  “We can all become more secure. ... Even small interactions will actually change your brain ... toward greater secure attachment.” (70:00, Dr. Levine)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00 – 03:39: Life update, transitions, comparing moving to breakups
• 17:56 – 22:00: Openness about sex among friends and what is “on the menu” for friendship conversation
• 31:32: Dr. Amir Levine joins
• 35:19 – 39:09: What is attachment theory? Basics of adult attachment styles
• 44:30 – 52:30: How to become secure — “CARP” explained, why secure isn’t boring
• 57:11 – 62:06: Importance of small everyday interactions (“SIMI”), anxious-avoidant dance
• 70:15 – 86:06: Tools for anxious, avoidant, and building a secure community; security as “contagious”
• 87:33 – 93:40: Rules for secure arguments & repairing after conflict

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Episode Takeaways

• Attachment isn’t destiny — styles shift with self-awareness, community, and intentional practice.
• Secure relationships may seem “boring,” but they offer emotional safety, room for growth, and even health benefits.
• The right mix of consistency and communication, plus understanding your unique map of attachment to those around you, is key for thriving in love and friendship.
• Security is a learned, shared, and practiced behavior — “not who you are, but what you do.”

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Where to Learn More:

• Dr. Amir Levine’s new book Secure
• Take the attachment style quiz at Dr. Amir Levine’s website
• Dr. Levine’s Masterclass: The Science of Rewire Relationships to Last with Attachment Theory

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Share your thoughts:
Ashley and Raina invite listeners to share their own attachment stories and whether they feel they could “sub in” for a best friend’s sex life, as openly as the hosts do!

Transcript

[Dr. Amir Levine]

We can all become more secure. We can learn these little tricks, these little tools to really get us to a more secure place, to act in a more secure way.

[Ashley Hess]

This podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Raina Greenberg]

Hi, guys. Hi, guys. Welcome back to another episode episode of Girls Gotta eat.

[Ashley Hess]

Welcome back. Birthday week.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's my birthday week.

[Ashley Hess]

How do you feel?

[Raina Greenberg]

I feel great. I did not have another Reinapalooza in me. I was gonna do it, and I really don't know why I thought I was gonna be capable of doing it. Cause I moved. Well, you didn't, but you've known you

[Ashley Hess]

didn't wanna do it for a minute. Like you were talking about doing it before you knew when you were gonna move.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Like, I think your goal was originally to move more in May, which was also psychotic and delusional.

[Raina Greenberg]

How did I think I was.

[Ashley Hess]

I don't know, girl. And then you'd be, like, settled and have Renapalooza in June.

[Raina Greenberg]

How did I think I was going to do that? I don't know. I'm so underwater right now and we have nothing else going on besides our normal jobs.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, the move, I think Arena Palooza is every other year, you know? Yeah, I like that.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. Or every four years. Yeah. Like, make them want it for. Maybe I'll do it for 45 and then 50 every four years. Like the Olympics.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. For the World Cup.

[Raina Greenberg]

Either way, it's not a yearly adventure.

[Ashley Hess]

It just can't be.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's just so make people want it.

[Ashley Hess]

Make people miss it, you know?

[Raina Greenberg]

We'll do it next year, maybe. All right, well, lots to talk about. Let's just thank our partners, then we'll get into it. Thank you to Article. Get a beautiful new couch, sofa or [e-mail] and Rocket Money. Reach your financial goals [e-mail] GGE and

[Ashley Hess]

thank you to AG1. Get a free morning person hat. Oh, I love this hat. I have it. It's great. And free AG1 flavor sampler in your welcome kit with your first subscription@drink ag1.com GGE and thank you to FP Movement. Go to fpmovement.com to shop their full line of activewear and workout gear.

[Raina Greenberg]

You guys, I said couch, sofa or bed, and I meant couch dining table or bed. Okay. Couch and a sofa are the same thing, but you could go to article for literally everything. We'll talk about later.

[Ashley Hess]

New couch sofa. Well, you know, get a couch sofa. That's arena exclusive.

[Raina Greenberg]

So my movers came yesterday and it was a really interesting day. I have Been wondering why. So, like, when we talked about it last week, I felt pensive.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

But I don't think it's, like, hit me. I think I've been, like, a little bit, like, suppressing how I feel. And it really doesn't hit you until the movers come. And my feeling is akin to how I felt when I left New York, which is that, like, this is gonna be painful. Even though I know what I'm doing is right, I feel it in my soul, in my bones, in my body. I'm a New Yorker. I want to be back in New York. But I feel like I'm also more in love with LA than ever. And I don't need to talk about this forever. You guys listened last week, but it's just. It continues to reiterate to me that, like, even though something's hard and painful, doesn't mean that it's the wrong decision. It just was really interesting seeing all these people pack my house up yesterday. And, like, that is the most important purchase I've ever made in my life. I poured my heart into all the things I did to it and renovated, and I'm just like, this is not mine anymore. And it just. I had a lot of feelings about it. I was so proud of it. And to turn my back on it 18 months later, I changed my mind. And that's painful and it sucks. And it's a real, like, closing of a chapter. But I am, like, elated. Over the moon, can't wait. But it's, you know, it's just a mix of emotions. And I think that, like, it reminds me of breakups. And I got some, like, really great messages from our listeners. And you guys were so wonderful about our episode last week, and Ashley and I talking about both of our decisions to move or stay, and Ashley and her husband's decision to move or stay and what we're gonna do. And you guys really feel like our wins are your wins and losses are your losses. And it means so much. And I got so many messages today. People saying, like, they reframed it, our relationship to their romantic relationships and deciding whether to leave and feeling like just because you're leaving, things don't have to change. And I don't know, it just. It really stuck with me. These emotional.

[Ashley Hess]

I never know, like, what's gonna make me emotional. I just. I think a lot of it is our audience, too. Like, I woke up this morning and, like, you know, I was just, like, glance at the comments just to see if there's something I missed. And it just was, like, overwhelmingly positive and. Yeah. And like, people just rooting for us. And like, this is my favorite type of episode because it's like you guys, your friendship and being open about it and stuff.

[Raina Greenberg]

So you guys are just. You're wonderful and you're so open with us. And I got a lot of messages about, like, feeling like you want to leave a relationship and you're not sure. And, like, just because something hurts doesn't mean it's the wrong decision and all these things. And obviously really nice messages about our friendship and you just being at this point in your life where you feel like the only single girl amongst your friends. And what do I do? And I would never recommend somebody like, completely shut the door to their entire community. I'm very lucky that you and I have a huge community of friends in both LA and New York. And the decision can be easier for me. I'm not getting up and going somewhere where I don't know anybody. Right.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. And this didn't come easily. You know, like, I think there are a lot of decisions in life. It's like, fuck it, like we said last week. But a lot of them take a lot of decision making and consideration and planning. Planning logistics, like all of that money. Yeah, right. I can't imagine what you must feel like, because you bought that house and it was your first house you bought, and that's such a big deal. And I still haven't done that. I don't know what that feels like. I can relate to when I moved from New York and wasn't sure what the future would hold, but I was moving out of my apartment. That meant so much to me. That was my first expensive, nice apartment. And like, the day the movers came was the day it hit me. Like, seeing him with all my stuff down the hallway, I was like, this is like, gutting me for a lot of reasons.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I didn't even own that apartment.

[Ashley Hess]

It just meant so much to me. And we were, we were leaving New York, even though we thought it wasn't really permanent. But just that alone, that, like, this was a huge milestone for you. You didn't just rent that house. I think it would hit different.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, I walk around the house. I'm camping out of the house now for the next week. I'm here. There's nothing in it. I have a. And I have one stool in the kitchen. We'll put a photo up in the. On the screen. But I just. I mean, I certainly walk around and see dollar signs, but I see all the little touches that were so important to me. It's so weird when you, like, really think you want something and you could be wrong.

[Ashley Hess]

You could be wrong.

[Raina Greenberg]

So, anyways, thank you guys for always being along on the journey of us and being so supportive and the messages about our friendship and how this hit home for you, and we just love you guys. You know, continue to reiterate that. But yesterday I had this funny moment where, like, all the movers were at my house, and I. It, like, hit me. I really had to take a shit.

[Ashley Hess]

And. Oh, my God.

[Raina Greenberg]

I have three bathrooms in my house. Like, I should be able to pick one, but they were just everywhere.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, my God.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I was just like, I don't. Like, there was a guy in my bedroom packing up the bedroom. There's a guy in the guest bedroom, and there was a guy in the kitchen. That's where all my bathrooms are. And so I was just like, I don't know what to do. So I drove to the studio to shit.

[Ashley Hess]

You came over here to shit?

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, my God. And there was, like, a children's church choir going on here. Oh, yeah. And, like, there was just, like, there was a pastor and there was children, and there was, like, a daycare, and I had to, like, walk in through the daycare.

[Ashley Hess]

This is so wholesome. Am I about to go blow it up in the public bathroom? This kid walks in, he's like, mommy, why is it smelling here?

[Raina Greenberg]

I was glad that they were so loud. I mean, that was the loudest choir.

[Ashley Hess]

You try to make a bunch of noise when you're taking a shit.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

But instead it was children being like, hallelujah.

[Raina Greenberg]

So there are people here during the day on the weekends, and I'm here.

[Ashley Hess]

I've never been here on a Sunday. I just.

[Raina Greenberg]

I can't shit with four men in my house. Like, you need them to respect you a little bit.

[Ashley Hess]

That is so funny. You, like, tap a glass. Men, I'd like you to leave the premises for the next 15 to 20 minutes. Mom has got a shit.

[Raina Greenberg]

And then I had to text your brother. I text you. I've moved so much. I moved to an Airbnb, then to a house, then to another house, then to another house. In the last four years, I've moved, like, four crazy. I text your brother once a year and ask him what to tip the movers, because I really don't know. Like, I texted your brother yesterday morning. I was like, hey, it's my yearly question.

[Ashley Hess]

That is so funny.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't know what to Ask you.

[Ashley Hess]

I always give him 100.

[Raina Greenberg]

I gave everybody 100. And then I gave the guy who like the foreman guy gave him 140.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, my brother, his moving company. Black tie moving. You guys can check him out. And they do moves everywhere.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's why I asked him. But I mean I do, I do ask Matt pretty much everything.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Anything masculine. Well, Shashank and I've been talking about my car because I am going to sell the car.

[Ashley Hess]

Shashank is the car. Go to immediately.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's the only thing I've ever solo texted Shashank about. Like I'll look over him.

[Ashley Hess]

Like Britney's texting him. It's just so funny. So Shashank's your car guy, Matt's your home guy.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's pretty much catch all for everything else.

[Ashley Hess]

Shashank's tech too.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't text anybody about tech. Rob.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I mean Shashank has replaced Rob in that way for me. Tech wise. He handles all my tech.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't think I have a tech guy at the moment. I don't need any tech. I don't have any tech needs.

[Ashley Hess]

But Rob would be.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, but car. Shashank and Shashank and I were debating whether I should sell my car. What would it cost to fix the car?

[Ashley Hess]

You've really banged it up since you've been here. Really?

[Raina Greenberg]

No, just two like chunks out of two dings.

[Ashley Hess]

The mirror every time comes over, she's like, can you put that mirror back on? This mirror?

[Raina Greenberg]

I had to get the mirror actually fixed.

[Ashley Hess]

You know, we never talked about was when you talked about all those recalls. So many people in the comments were like, oh, you didn't know what it was like to have a Jeep. I guess they're known for recalls. Yeah. All the people like, oh yeah, Reina, welcome to the world of Jeep ownership.

[Raina Greenberg]

I thought Jeeps were like the best. I've never had a problem with my Jeep.

[Ashley Hess]

People did not echo you in the comments.

[Raina Greenberg]

There are a lot of recalls, but I've never had a. In three years, I've never had a single problem with the car. However, there's 11,000 miles on my car. Like, I'm not beating this car up. Yeah, I'm barely in it.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

So anyways, I'm selling the car, I guess.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. Oh, you are?

[Raina Greenberg]

So this week I will move into my new place. We'll celebrate my birthday and that's it. Then I will live in New York. But I feel like you and I are just going to be together continuously. Like there's no time off. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, that's the thing. Like, I don't know. We've just been talking about it and what's kind of settled in how our life is gonna look. And I was like, well, Raina, you haven't really been around this year. You've been touring a lot, like, socially, you know, like, no one ever thinks you're in town. You know, like, I will certainly feel a void. It is very sad for me. I wanna be clear. But we have vacations planned and all this travel, so I'm like, when am I gonna feel it like that? Like, when is my life gonna feel different? It will, but I don't know. When I'm not looking forward to it.

[Raina Greenberg]

We're together continuously. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

You're going to be having this conversation before you even move. So it is. Something's going to hit, and it's going to be upsetting.

[Raina Greenberg]

Hear me?

[Ashley Hess]

You need to validate that.

[Raina Greenberg]

I just was like, we are going to be together all the time. We're going to be in New York together, and then we're going to go to Europe together, and then we're going to go do it together. And now be in L. A. I'm sure. And then we're spend Labor Day together. I mean, we're going to get more time together than we actually plan.

[Ashley Hess]

This is what she did. She was like, you know what?

[Raina Greenberg]

If I move away, I'll be able

[Ashley Hess]

to get her on vacation more.

[Raina Greenberg]

We have not spent that much time together since January, since I've been. Now we're gonna be together all the time. The minute we get back from Europe, we're gonna go to Dewey, and then I'll be in LA probably, and then Labor Day.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, well, great.

[Raina Greenberg]

Clock it.

[Ashley Hess]

Clock it. Okay, so Shashank and I had this fun little day on Saturday. We just ran around, went to eat at this really great place we wanted to go. And they were, like, walking down Abikini, and we ended up having a drink at Oah, which is a great place in Abbot Kinney. Sushi drinks, such fun vibes. And I've always wanted to sit, like, there. A bar that faces the street. Like, these high stools. Probably the most uncomfortable stools in Venice, I would say. But, you know, whatever, it's fine. Maybe the world.

[Raina Greenberg]

And they're so little. They're, like, trying to fit your butt on us.

[Ashley Hess]

If you're like, my brother Rob couldn't sit in.

[Raina Greenberg]

I've seen Rob try to sit on it. Remember, he came to. Oh, he, like, stood the Whole time.

[Ashley Hess]

No, Like, Matt couldn't, though. Like, he would be like, I'm not. I'm. I guess I'm gonna stand or we're gonna go somewhere else, you know, Like, Matt has to assess the restaurant when he walks in, see where he could actually physically fit, whatever. So. But we. I've never really sat on the street like that, like, facing the street. And so we're sitting there having beers, talking, and Raina just pops up.

[Raina Greenberg]

Raina eats my walk every day.

[Ashley Hess]

I know, but, like, you did pop up. Like, you had, like, our location. Like, how did you know we were there?

[Raina Greenberg]

What do you mean? I take the same walk seven days a week down the same street. And I saw this color blue, and it reminded me of the blue from Levaine cookies packaging. And I was like, I must go get a Levaine cookie. And so I. It's right next to oas. It's the walk I do every day.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, so I'm gonna jump in here and talk about Levain. So first of all, it's Levin. But you. I, I, I just know this because it's. I did a partnership with them years ago, and it's French, but I accept Levaine. Right. Like, it's fine. But if people are gonna be in the comments, it's Levin.

[Raina Greenberg]

Grow up, people.

[Ashley Hess]

Either or works. Sure. In this conversation, I wasn't correcting you. I like to say levain, but unfortunately, it's like they gave me talking points and I had to say. Right. I, I can't believe you haven't asked about Shashank's review, because that was his first Levin cookie.

[Raina Greenberg]

I was a little drunk when we left. Oh. And I forgot until. Right. The second that we went there together, I forgot that I was like, before you guys drive me home, can we go get cookies together? I was a little buzzed up too.

[Ashley Hess]

You had like, three glasses of rose.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, I was drunk. I went to bed at 9pm okay.

[Ashley Hess]

We're going to talk about what happened, but I just feel like I have an unpopular opinion to share.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, I don't think this is gonna be that unpopular. But tell me, what do you think it's gonna be? I think you're gonna tell me that it's just. It's too much cookie.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. It's not too much cookie. It's too much chocolate chip. Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

Did you guys get the chocolate chip cookie?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. But it's not just them. It's so. I love a Levain cookie by. It's, It's a top tier.

[Raina Greenberg]

I gotta be clear.

[Ashley Hess]

I love The Bristol Farms cookie here in la. I think that's an incredible cookie.

[Raina Greenberg]

Beverly Hills cookie.

[Ashley Hess]

Beverly Hills cookie.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

We have amazing chocolate chip cookies. My unpopular opinion is some of these cookies need less chocolate chips. I'm totally with you. They are so densely packed. Like, what is the point of the cookie? I could just be eating chocolate chips or I could eat a Hershey's bar. Like, what? I. I love the cookie dough. That's the compliment to the cookie.

[Raina Greenberg]

What are we doing? And they're. Every time I order a chocolate chip cookie from there, they correct. They go, you mean double chocolate chip. And I'm like, first of all, you know what I mean? And second of all, oh, why are we doubling it up?

[Ashley Hess]

So is that their standard chocolate chip cookie is a double chocolate chip cookie.

[Raina Greenberg]

What you got to do is get the chocolate chip.

[Ashley Hess]

Wal.

[Raina Greenberg]

Walnut.

[Ashley Hess]

Of course you do.

[Raina Greenberg]

Which is less? It's.

[Ashley Hess]

It is a little less. I always go towards a chocolate chip with walnut or I love a chocolate chip cookie with sea salt. I like a balanced ratio of cookie dough and chocolate.

[Raina Greenberg]

I get their oatmeal raisin.

[Ashley Hess]

We got the carrot cake. And you probably were too drunk to remember.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, I remember this.

[Ashley Hess]

The carrot cake is a sleeper hit. It has some white chocolate, I think, in it, or macadamia. Like, it's so bomb. They're carrot cake, cookie. Now you guys are probably turning on me, but I just feel. I just think. I don't think it was gonna be good. Chocolate chip cookies. Is this really what people want? It's just chocolate chips. I need a ratio of dough.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm trying to eat the cookie.

[Ashley Hess]

I want the cookie.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't want to be drowning in chocolate. I feel like it is just pouring down my throat.

[Ashley Hess]

So sometimes, like, if there's an opportunity when you. I go get a cookie to pick one, I pick one that looks less densely packed.

[Raina Greenberg]

Me too. I'm. This is not a popular opinion to me. Okay. And I can't wait to go after. I'll probably know.

[Ashley Hess]

I think that these companies. Who thinks this is what people want, they must.

[Raina Greenberg]

I just think people really like chocolate and I just. I'm more of like a savory person. And to me, like, cookies are not a savory food, but they're not as sweet as chocolate.

[Ashley Hess]

Just eat chocolate then. Cookie dough is also sweet, but I guess it has a little also when

[Raina Greenberg]

you melt it, it's more intense. Cookie dough. I could eat with more chocolate chips because they're crunchy and I like that texture.

[Ashley Hess]

But I do think A chocolate chip cookie with a little sea salt is. That's my shit.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

And so it's just. I want Levin Levaine to make a half chocolate chip. Let's take double out of it. Half chocolate.

[Raina Greenberg]

Who gave this feedback?

[Ashley Hess]

I'm telling you, I'm curious. You guys have got to let us know in the comments. And again, if you're a real chocolate slut, which I really do think I was when I was younger, I could handle more sweet. Maybe I would want this. But now I just need a more balanced ratio.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm with you.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. No feedback.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. So this very funny thing happened when we were at owa. So this guy had asked me. It's not somebody I was on a date with. He's just somebody I flirt with sometimes. That's fine. Not somebody I'm ever gonna date or I wasn't dating.

[Ashley Hess]

That's the definition of your relationship. Somebody flirt with sometimes.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. He asked me what I was doing and earlier in the day, and I said he wanted to get a coffee. There's no point in this conversation. I said, I might be on Abikity.

[Ashley Hess]

I think people would wanna know how he got here.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, okay. So he texted me and said, what are you doing today? You wanna get a coffee? And I have to pack. And if you want to come down Abbot Kinney, I'll walk down to Abbot Kinney. And he was like, maybe later. And I was like, little fuckboy. And then I just forgot about it. Maybe later. Guys that say maybe to you, go on with your day.

[Ashley Hess]

You don't have plans if you had friends. Okay, yeah, I'm going to make alternate plans.

[Raina Greenberg]

He initiated the initial plan and then gave me a maybe. I was like, I will see myself. I'll just do my day. Anyways, I had walked down to visit. To visit you guys on Abbot Kinney, and he texted me and said, like, what are you up to? I can meet you there now. And I was like, great, come down and meet us. So he came down to meet us and we really had fun, the four of us. And we.

[Ashley Hess]

But then it was funny because then rain and I took the uncomfortable stools and they had stood on the street. So it was very funny. Like, it was like a meet and greet. Like, they had to stand in the window on the street and we were sitting inside. That's very funny for us to be in the restaurant there. On the street.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, I started off on the street and there it's elevated into the restaurant. And you guys are so tall. So I was really down.

[Ashley Hess]

The men can stand on the street. We're going to take the seats.

[Raina Greenberg]

But as we got drunk or why, we started talking about sleeping with each other. Probably just because it's fun to talk about. I forgot what he asked to open the conversation. We just started talking, like, what I like in bed and, like, oral and different sex positions. And if you could pick two sex positions, like, which two would you pick? And you just started, like, jumping in and telling him, like, what I like with, like, precisional accuracy.

[Ashley Hess]

I don't think I could. It was. It felt like it was the rose looking back. Like, I was on one. Like, I don't know if I could replicate that today, but yeah, I just did like a whole monologue.

[Raina Greenberg]

You were just like, she likes watching people jerk off so you could jerk off. He was like, do you like blowjobs and the come talk? And then I was like, I'd like, when you go down, I mean, you're like, you haven't been liking that. I was like, lately I've been liking it. And you were like, you guys, she's 69. And then we were talking about liking 69. And then you were like, it's type two fun for her. She just likes to think about it later. And like, and then you were like, you should see her butthole. It's so nice. Like, it is a world class butthole. I wondered, like, when I got home, I was laying in bed just sporadically laughing about this. I laughed about this for days. But, like, I was wondering if, like, I mean, you and I just talk about this every week and what I like and, like, have talked about this for a decade. But, like, I wonder if other girls could do this with their girlfriends. Like, it wasn't even weird. Like, your husband was there. This guy that I'm with is there. The four of us are just going back and forth. Like, actually, Shashank, I don't think participated. He was like, I'm gonna let them cook crazy people.

[Ashley Hess]

He really was just like, where am I?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. He was like, I'm gonna be watching sports on my phone. But, like, I wonder if other people could do this with their friends. Like, with such precision.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people could do this about you, Reina. Like, I don't know if my knowledge of your sex life comes from our private conversations or this podcast or both. Like, you and I don't sit around that much and talk about what you like in bed. It's been on a mic.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's a lot of it's.

[Ashley Hess]

Happened in a live show. It's like.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't know.

[Ashley Hess]

It's. I can't decide.

[Raina Greenberg]

I guess I have a cipher, extra

[Ashley Hess]

tidbits from private conversations, but most of it's public knowledge.

[Raina Greenberg]

You don't think this is a two people that have a podcast thing? You just think it's a me thing? No, I feel like the comments are gonna be. Every person is gonna be like, yeah, I know what ran.

[Ashley Hess]

No, I think people know what I like, too.

[Raina Greenberg]

But you think me more so than other people.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes, a little more, maybe.

[Raina Greenberg]

But we both.

[Ashley Hess]

I think people know what I like, too.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, I could do this with you for sure. Maybe not with as much precision. I'm. I think I get more disgusting.

[Ashley Hess]

I think that I just have a lot of exposure to what you like. And, like, I think. But I think someone who's listened to every episode and has come to a few live shows also does. And I think they could have done that same thing if they have a good recall.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm really graphic.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, you were just open.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, you know, I just. I wondered if people can do this with their girlfriends.

[Ashley Hess]

Let us.

[Raina Greenberg]

Let us know if you guys could all. You guys all feel like you could sub out for Ashley and have this conversation with anybody. I.

[Ashley Hess]

It feels less of a friendship and more of. Can you name your favorite podcasters sex preferences? Because I don't know that I can do this for another friend.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't know if that's because of the closeness just of our relationship.

[Ashley Hess]

I know. I mean, I've been talking with Corey about sex for our whole friendship, and we've been friends since we, like, lost our virginity. Even friends were 4 years old, so I think I could do a pretty good job. And I know what her and her husband are into, and he knows I know these things about them. We've sent them sex toys and all kinds of stuff, but certainly not. Not like, I could do with you. I mean, it's like your sex life is part of my job also.

[Raina Greenberg]

I feel like a lot of stuff is on the menu for me. Like, I'm just open to a lot of. Like, I have, like, one, like, best friend, and she's a very sexual person. She has a lot of sex, but she. She doesn't like to dirty talk. She doesn't masturbate. She doesn't want to go down on guys. Like, I know all the stuff she doesn't like, but I'm not. Like, there's all this stuff on the menu for you. Yeah, Like, I just I'll put a lot of stuff on the menu. There's a lot to talk about.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, Ashley was like, she likes to watch guys jerk off, and she likes to.

[Ashley Hess]

I, like, nailed it. I was like, man, that was solid.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, thank God he's a comedian, because otherwise, like, a normal person, I don't know if they could have handled that. You think just like, a normal dude would have, like.

[Ashley Hess]

No.

[Raina Greenberg]

Even your husband didn't want to participate.

[Ashley Hess]

The normal dude in the group didn't

[Raina Greenberg]

enjoy a normal person with a normal job. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Or they would have, like, taken it to judge you, like, kind of put you in a box. I don't know what sort of money for. Just. I don't look at you differently.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think that to, like, put you in this, like, really slutty box. I mean, I've definitely had people that I've gone on dates with, like, learn that we own a sex toy company or learn that, like, we talk about sex on the show. And they do see me through this lens of, like, this girl's gonna fuck me and do anything. And it's like, I'm allowed to say this stuff. Yeah, Ashley's allowed to say this stuff. You don't get to say this stuff. Right.

[Ashley Hess]

And we're comedians.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

You know, we're, like, mentally ill. We're performing right now. So there was a moment where I was like, what are we doing here? This is a live podcast on site at. Oh, well, you're welcome.

[Raina Greenberg]

I know people get to sit around us sometimes, like, at airports.

[Ashley Hess]

The servers were like, what is going on over here? All right, guys, well, let us know if you could describe. You know, I just think people are

[Raina Greenberg]

gonna be like, no.

[Ashley Hess]

I could tell you so much more what Raina likes than my best friend.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm dying to know. I think that's probably true. I also think that when people are in very serious relationships, they don't talk about that Stu as much. I am not talking to even my closest friends about their serious partners sex lives. And if I do, it's because they're talking to me more as, like, a therapist. Because you and I do this so much. It's like, I think our friends come to us with, like, I'm having a real problem. Not like, I don't really want to know about, like, my friend's serious partners dicks. And, I mean, I'll. I'll listen, but it is interesting.

[Ashley Hess]

It's like, I always think about this. Is it age and growing up, or is it the level of commitment? Like, Are you talking more graphically about your long term boyfriends and your sex life in your 20s or your early 30s as opposed to your husband in your 40s? And it's not even really like it's husband I guess, but more long term relationship. Like is it that we outgrow some of that or is it because our relationships are more serious or their marriages and it, it's not, I don't know, I don't want to say sad. It's like you miss it, you know, And I do love when you, you get going with your best friends who may or may not be married or in long term relationships or whatever it may be and everybody's sharing and not too much, you know, they're not oversharing and they're certainly not gonna say anything that makes their husband or their long term partner look bad. But like you miss it sometimes. Like those are fun conversations to have and like sometimes when they happen this age you're like, God, this is all we used to to do.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think that people in serious relationship have less sex. They have less crazier sex.

[Ashley Hess]

Crazy stories, Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think that life gets in the way and stress and kids and jobs and money and I think you just, there are less stories in general.

[Ashley Hess]

That's totally true.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think when a friend starts to talk to us about their serious relationships because they're not having sex.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, yeah, and you're totally right. Like you've been married for 10 years. Like, I don't know, what would Corey say, you guys, last night, you're never going to believe it. I mean we do know some things and like her and him have a great life and like, you know, they have a bunch of kids and I love that they're still doing it, but it's like she's not going to come to me unless it was crazy. And that's 10 years later. What would it even be?

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, where did he put it? What did you guys do right?

[Ashley Hess]

Like what, I'm hanging from the ceiling, what's left? I feel like you get older and the conversations turn to like grievances and like we're not having enough sex or he can't get like all these different things. So I don't know, it's just like to the younger ladies listening, like those moments that you're having, even if you're like, God, we're all just like single and don't want to be and running around and sleeping with whoever, but you're going to those happy hours and you're sharing all these Stories like, just know that this won't be like this forever. And it goes back to like our conversation with Tune Day. And just know that you're really doing it and like, appreciate those moments and cherish them, because you're not gonna do that when you're. You're all married. Yeah, it's a good times.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's a good reminder.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Sometimes you do just. I miss that stuff sometimes, you know, and then if in your 40s, if you're still doing that, I mean, you're the only person left to entertain anybody.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, it's like, it's Sex in the City, you know? And I think that was like a pretty realistic depiction, you know, like, you had Samantha who was telling everybody everything because she was single and sleeping around in the best way. And then Charlotte, who's like, these are the problems I need to talk about with my girlfriends, with my. Both my husbands. And then Miranda, Steve's one ball. I'm pregnant, whatever. And then Carrie and all her toxic. Like, I feel like that's a really realistic depiction of women. 30s, 40s. Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes, for sure. All right, well, if you are just like drunk sluts running around, enjoy it.

[Ashley Hess]

Carrying the friend group on your back,

[Raina Greenberg]

like, Samantha, my going away party here is gonna be me and three couples. And you guys are so lucky.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. You better get the story.

[Raina Greenberg]

Actually, I already texted the group. I fucked the bartender.

[Ashley Hess]

Raina. I, like, forgot. So if you.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm not gonna.

[Ashley Hess]

I would say arguably one of your best bits in your. In your hour ever. And the. In the physical comedy of it all that I've done.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Is this guy who I forgot is the bartender at the restaurant. And that's where you chose to go?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. It felt chaotic. In a fun way.

[Ashley Hess]

That's the perfect send off. I wouldn't want to have your goodbye dinner at a place where you hadn't fucked somebody.

[Raina Greenberg]

So I thought about, like, where do I want to go? And I thought like, Kobe's. You and I and Taylor have had, like, really wonderful cozy dinners.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm just laughing, like, that's the requirement. You're like, what places have I fucked the bartender? Where has someone that works here have teabagged me? Okay, here's our options.

[Raina Greenberg]

So I was like, running through the list and I was like, kobe's in Santa Monica. So wonderful. Enrique Oliveira just opened up a new restaurant in Venice on Abbot Kinney.

[Ashley Hess]

Nope, haven't fucked anyone that works there.

[Raina Greenberg]

Literally. Hope he's there. Also, the other night we were at a bar and like, I was also Kind of drunk. And Shashank told me that one of our friends exes was inside the bar with a date. And I just go, I'm about to go be chaotic. I just walked into the bar. Shashank just doesn't like.

[Ashley Hess]

I don't even know. Do you think he reveled in that moment? He went and got drinks. He was gone for a while. The bar was getting kind of crowded. To come back with that news, like, I would have been sprinting. I would have chilled back from the bar, slashing margaritas. You'll never believe it was there. And he was just like, anyway, so, so and so is at the bar.

[Raina Greenberg]

We're like, okay.

[Ashley Hess]

Brandon gets up immediately.

[Raina Greenberg]

I was like, I'm gonna go cause some chaos. And just like ran into the bar. It was so fun for me. I know I drank a lot this week.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, it was more than usual. And I was feeling a little sluggish this morning.

[Raina Greenberg]

Not me.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, let's talk about our partners. I am telling you guys about AG1. You know what, let's just get right into it because if you are feeling that type of way, this is a great way to combat that sluggishness and that lack of energy. It is a daily health drink with a multivitamin, pre and probiotics, superfoods and antioxidants. One scoop 8 ounces of water, just chug it down and it's really a great thing to incorporate into your daily routine. The next gen formula delivers 75 plus ingredients backed by four clinical trials. Clinical clinically shown to support gut health, fill common nutrient gaps and improve key nutrient levels within three months. So as we're getting into summer, I mean, I think that's just how it be. You know, you're maybe drinking more, you're just sleeping less, traveling more, running around, having the time of your life, Late nights, long weekends, spontaneous plans. AG1 helps you keep one thing consistent. It's going to be that high quality nutritional support every single day. No matter where you start your morning. Take it on the go. The travel packs. It really can fit so easily into your daily routine. So you guys can visit drinkag1.com gigi to get a free morning person hat and free AG1 flavor sampler in your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription, an 82 value. That's drinkag1.com gge and I love this hat. It's just like a really solid dad hat and I think it's funny to wear if you aren't a morning person too. Like it's Just a great hat. It's like a conversation starter. So anyway, get that hat you guys

[Raina Greenberg]

drink ag1.com GG all right, I'm moving. What a better time to talk about furniture than right now. So article can't recommend it enough. I absolutely love what they have. They make it effortless to create stylish, long lasting homes at an unbeatable price. So if you go on the article's website, you'll see tons of different styles. So my style at my house in Venice has always been really coastal and, and boho. But in New York, I want to make it just like a little more edgy, more colors. So they offer mid century modern, they do scandi inspired pieces. But like everything is curated really beautifully. If you're like, I have no idea how to curate a space, just go on their website and look. Obviously people are looking for outdoor furniture at this time of year. They have furniture that is just second to none. They have patio furniture. They have great tables for outside. I just love the quality of everything and the delivery is fantastic. So I love this Lubeck L U B E K outdoor loveseed. And they have it in all these different colors so that you can look at different finishes and colors. But truly like finding outdoor furniture can be kind of tough because it can be kind of low quality and articles

[Ashley Hess]

is, oh my gosh, last forever. Like I still have stuff from article from New York Patio moved here, still using it, like still looks great. The colors haven't really faded even. I don't really even cover it or anything. I just let it sit outside and yeah, it's just, it's really still so great, still so quality.

[Raina Greenberg]

And their shipping is fast and affordable. The assembly is fantastic. They have great customer support. It's really important Ashley and I to work with companies of great support. They support seven days a week and they have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. So if you are in the market for a beautiful new sofa, dining table or bed or outdoor furniture, head to

[Ashley Hess]

article.com okay, let's get into it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay guys. We are very excited to welcome our guest today. He is a psychiatrist, neuroscientist and co author of the best selling book Attached, which transformed the way people think about relationships and attachment styles. As an associate professor of psychiatry at Columbia University, he's become one of the leading voices on the science of human connection. His new book, the Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life is out now as well as his masterclass the Science of Rewire Relationships to Last with attachment Theory. Please welcome to the show. Dr. Amir Levine.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Hey. I'm glad to be here.

[Raina Greenberg]

We are really glad to have you. Thank you.

[Ashley Hess]

So we were just chatting with you a little bit before we started recording about how incredible and widespread I mean, your book is. Just. It's this number one book attached. Obviously, secure will be the same, but it's been out for a month in the Zeitgeist, in any relationship expert podcast, this whole entire world. Did you ever. Did you think that when you were writing it, where you were like, I got a real banger on my hands? Have you been surprised at this?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I mean, definitely not. We used to have, like, this. I wrote it with my best friend from high school, and we had this running joke that he's only gonna sell one copy to the Library of Congress because we just never really imagined that he would get to where it got. No. Ever.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay.

[Ashley Hess]

Wow.

[Raina Greenberg]

You really are. I mean, attachment theory isn't new, but romantic attachment theory, you really are, like, the father of this concept.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So that's exactly when I came across that. That's exactly what I felt, because it has been around, actually, since the late 80s. The first paper about adult attachment was published in 1987. But he was really buried in academic lingo, these adult attachment styles. And I came across it by chance because I was working with mothers and kids, and we were doing secure therapy for their mothers. Like, they were trauma survivors, and we were working with them. And I knew about attachment styles in kids because I'm also a child psychiatrist. But I love their work so much that I did something you never do in any of those rotations as a resident. You're on call. You never have any time. But I read. They always gave you this suggested reading list, and I read everything on the suggested reading list. And that's where I came across these adult attachment styles. And at the time, I was going through a breakup. It was so painful. I think probably the most painful breakup of my life. And all of a sudden, it explained so many things. It's like I went from seeing relationships in black and white to seeing relationships in color, and it explained so many things to me that I knew that this is just like. It felt like an epiphany. So basically what I did, I took all those concepts that were buried in academic lingo, and I translated them to something that people can use in everyday life.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, it's amazing, and it's really influenced our work, I have to tell you. It's funny. My mom's a psychologist, and many years ago, I said to her, this guy invented attachment theory. So I actually thought that you were the father of the whole concept. But no.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

You know who did? The kid? No, it's John Bowlby, actually, that invented it. But there is something to be said about translating it, too, because it could have stayed. And to tell you the truth, when the book came out and I said, we really want to write about this because it's so helpful. And also, my friend. We were friends from high school, he was like, oh, my. If we had this in our 20s, it would have been so helpful to understand that. And so there's really something to be said about also taking that academic lingo and then. And making it into something that people can actually use.

[Ashley Hess]

Digest.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes. I mean, yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

The book that changed my life in my 20s was he's just not that into you. That's all we had. I mean, so it's just. It's like, if we would have had this, we could have looked at it so differently.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I know, exactly. Because you know something? It's just like. Like, it sounds like he's not that into you. And it was so popular because sometimes people do behave in a way where. And we can talk about that. That's kind of like what avoidants do. Like, they, oh, no, I can't meet tomorrow. And then they're trying, well, he's just not that into you. But then they give you other messages, too. So if only it were that simple. He's not just that into you. I wish it were that simple. But that's why the attachment sample. It really gives you more depth into understanding what's going on.

[Raina Greenberg]

So we want to talk to you about your new book and the Masterclass, but maybe we start really quickly by just explaining if somebody lives under a rock, what attachment theory is and what the romantic attachment styles are.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Right. So attachment theory was actually vetted by John Bowlby, who basically said that attachment is a basic need. Just like food and water. We need to attach to other people. And before that, the Freudian thought was that we attach to others. Like the infant attaches to the mother because she gives him sustenance and she takes care of him. And that's why. But Bobby said, no, no, no. It really is a basic need. And he saw that because it was during World War II, and the kids were separated from their families and they failed to thrive. But Bobby also said that we attach our attachment needs, like, start when we're born and end, like, to the last of our days. And that's when later on in the 80s, they saw that also it actually functions as an important part in romantic relationships, too. And before we even go to the attachment styles, I have to say so people really have to understand what it means. Like, basic need is a basic need. And people oftentimes feel so bad that they really want to find someone, and without it, their life feels incomplete. And people say, well, but you should. You. You have to learn to love yourself first, or you have to all these. You need to learn to be alone and things like that. But if it's a basic need, you can't say that. Imagine if I were to tell you, Raina or Ashley, oh, you have to learn to go without food or without water and be fine with it. So if we understand that it's a basic need, we can have it both ways. You can't tell us, oh, you have to learn to be alone. I'm sorry. It's a basic need. It's something that we need.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Humans need connection for sure, right?

[Ashley Hess]

And when you say that, do you mean connection and love in general from family, friends, or do you feel like romantic love is a basic need?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I think all of the above. And that's where we get into the attachment styles, that we don't all need the same thing. We need different things. And that's where the attachment styles come in. Like people who have anxious attachment styles, they want a lot of closeness, but they also need a lot of reassurance. Because if they have very sense and we can talk about that, they can insecure, you'll see it's actually, in a way, a superpower. They see a lot of things that other people can't see, and they can identify things that other people can't identify. And so they need to feel safe, and they need the environment to be safe. And they want a lot of closeness. But people who are avoidant, they also want to be attached to others and be close to others. But there's a caveat there. They don't feel comfortable with too much closeness. And when there's too much closeness, they start to feel like, no, it doesn't feel good to me. Stay away a little bit. And they have. We call it deactivating strategies. Different ways in which you can keep some distance, create a measure of distance from the other person. And people are secure. They are blood type O, they like closeness a lot, and they'll give you as much closeness as you want. But even if you create distance with them, they don't really care that much. Whereas the anxious were like, oh, my God, this is this. This is the end of their relationship. I know it's the beginning of the end. They probably won't even notice. So let's say someone's secure. You want to hold their hands all the time. They hold your hands all the time. It's not a problem. You don't want. You want to. They want. You want to walk a few steps ahead of them and then like walking behind you. That's fine for them, too. They're not going to take it too hard. So they get along. They're very easy to get along with. So these are the three main attachment styles. And then there's fearful, avoidant, which is a combination of anxious and avoidant. Kind of like one hand, stay away, one hand, come close.

[Raina Greenberg]

And these aren't fixed for everybody. Right. You can kind of vacillate between these depending on who your partner is and which stage of life you're in.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So that's like a key question because, like, in attached, we treat them more as categories. It's more like, okay, that's how you are. But the research since then has shown that that's not. Not so. Actually, it's so much more nuanced. And actually I find interesting and hopeful. It's really more in a spectrum. And we can have different attachment styles with different people. There's a new quiz, insecure about your attachment style. And even also on my website, and I put a whole dropdown menu of you can figure out your. And you get a map of the different people in your life and your attachments done with them. Like, you can even have it with your partner, even a coworker or your boss, your siblings, your children. And then you really get a. Get a clue and you see how it really can change between different people. I even put your pet there. I heard a little bark there. So I have a dog, too. And you can have different attachment styles or different even with your pets.

[Ashley Hess]

So funny. I mean, dogs are funny. They're so obvious. I feel like avoidant dogs versus anxious, needy, cuddly.

[Raina Greenberg]

Wait, don't you mean how you attach to your dog, not how dogs.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm talking about the dog. I always want to be on the dog.

[Raina Greenberg]

You always want to be on the dog?

[Ashley Hess]

I'm saying the dog. I feel like it's so obvious if they're avoidant or anxious Completely, yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think about, like, my romantic life. I think about my childhood, and I was really conditioned that, like, love was given sort of by one parent intermittently, and I had to work really hard for it. I didn't know when I was going to get, like, acceptance and kindness and things like that. But as an adult, it's manifested. Like, there's some people I've been with that would describe me as pretty avoidant. And there's other people I've dated that would be like, she's extremely anxious to the point that it's like annoying. And other people I've had really secure, wonderful relationships with. So for me, it is kind of partner dependent and with friends as well.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah, people can bring out different things in you. That's why I really like actually the like secure. And also in the masterclass, I talk about secure priming therapy. And that's kind of like what happened in the past 15 years. And that's why I haven't really talked so much on podcasts and stuff, because I was really busy trying to figure it out in how to help people become more secure. Because life is so much easier when you're more secure. You just like, there's less relationship strife. And so, like, what we do is when you do that, I call it attachment topography. You look at your life as a whole, you get a map of who are the people in your life and you see who brings out your secure potential. And the idea is that we all have a secure potential within us. And people, pets, different interactions in our life can bring it out. And in secure primary therapy, we learn to give primacy to those people because they will help even the more secure interactions you have, even the small ones, really will actually change your brain towards greater secure attachment.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, I really want to get into secure, but I do want to ask you a question before we kind of move on to your new work, which is in the last 15 years. I'm just curious what you think. Do you think we've become more anxious in dating because there's such a prevalence of breadcrumbing and ghosting and bad behavior that's being talked about and the TikTok ification of bad behavior and discussing. You should do this. I mean, how do you feel that this is like, affected society and dating,

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Some of it is also a matter of luck. Like, oh, actually I can tell you, I'm going to tell you this story, her story. And I think she wouldn't mind. Like my niece, she never like until her really early 20s. I think maybe she was 19 or 20. She never dated ever. And she came to visit me in New York with her friends and she was like, oh, let's like have fun. And she never even had a dating profile. And I think they started Tinder like, each for each other. Each was Doing the other's profile. And then there's this guy that she liked for her, and he liked her. And she's like, oh, look at this guy. And he's like, oh, he's kind of cute. Let me check him out. And fast forward, she went. She met him. They really hit it off. And now I think they've been married for, like, how long have they been married? Like, six, seven years. I'm like, I don't like.

[Raina Greenberg]

I hate these stories. I hate her first boyfriend, first Tinder swipe.

[Ashley Hess]

We hear it a lot, though.

[Raina Greenberg]

It does happen. We have a friend that's married to somebody that met one on one date from a dating app, and she's married to him now.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah, you see? I mean, it does happen. So some people are lucky. And then sometimes it takes more effort and it can be really, really painful. And that's the sort of love bombing and all these terms. I think it just really tells you how painful it can be that sometimes people can go all in and all of a sudden they get cold feet or they change their mind or something happens. And I think it's just part of the process, whether social media and dating apps have exacerbated it maybe. I mean, it could be. But I think hopefully we can talk about a few tools that people can use to try to circumvent that and to really cut to the chase and know what to look for, how to navigate this whole dating terrain from a more secure stance.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, let's do it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, so let's talk about secure and why this now. Why this book now the focus of the book?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So it took me many, many years to really come up within a framework of how people can become more secure. Because when Attached came out, it was basically, remember, it was in academic lingo, it wasn't even part of any clinical thing that I've learned in my psychiatry residency. There was no treatment to help people become more secure. And. But then people started coming to me to therapy and like, okay, we want to become more secure. Help us become. And I didn't have an immediate answer to that. But then I'm also a brain. I'm also a neuroscientist. I do, like, really molecular experiments in the lab, learning brain science. And I found myself in treatment, really thinking more and more about how our social brain functions and what it needs and what it actually hates and integrating that into the treatment to help people become more secure. So one of the things the brain really hates a lot is being excluded and being ignored. It's built into us in a very primitive way. Because I think one of the things to understand is that attachment is really about safety. It's how we feel safe in the world. When we are ignored. Our emotional brain doesn't respond to the here and now that, oh look, I don't know, you're sitting and I'm like in a studio in your home and you're safe, there's no predators around. But that's not. Wasn't the case when our emotional brain was formed. And the emotional brain was formed like being ignored meant life threatening. It was a life threatening condition because you get picked off and turn into prey. And so our brain really hates that. And they have really all these research and I call it insecure discipable effect. It's based on this experiment. When you play a game of catch with two other people and all of a sudden they stop throwing the ball in your direction and like, areas of like pain and distress light up in the brain and we can't really mitigate it. Even if I give you money, I tell you these other two people are like horrible people. It doesn't matter. Our brain doesn't care who the other person is, doesn't care if you give them money, it still like really will react with huge distress. So then if you understand that and you want to keep the social brain happy, how do you do it? That's where I came up with these five pillars for a secure life. Just like this weird acronym that I called carp. It's not the fish. It stands for consistent, available, responsive, reliable and predictable. So you want to learn to be consistent, available, responsive, reliable and predictable. And you want to also teach others and arrange in your life that others in your life give primacy to others that are also consistent, available and responsible. And it calls a lot of people to order. And you can do it in different ways. It's not like, oh, it means that you have to always answer within a matter of a second someone's text. But you need to do it in a way that actually the other person will experience you as reliable and predictable.

[Raina Greenberg]

So you feel like when you talk about this like secure attachment, you talk about working on yourself first, not working on like getting your partner to be better.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Don't get me wrong, I'm talking about the whole thing. I'm talking about yourself and I'm talking about also what the expectations of others should be and how to also really look at that map that you create when you create that attachment. And you look who are the people in your life and who the People that are secure are people who are usually cars. They always show up to us. They're solid. And that's why oftentimes we give them the least attention in our life. Because they're boring. They're very solid. They're just always there. We don't. You're not gonna call your friend and say, oh, my God, this person did this and that to me or another, because they never do any of those things to you.

[Raina Greenberg]

They make bad reality TV stars.

[Ashley Hess]

But I want to talk about that. Boring, because you can reduce this down to being secure is boring. So where do you stand on that?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

But that's a huge part of secure priming therapy. And that's actually a process that I went through on myself in my whole journey in the process of writing attached and then even more so secure. I've fallen in love with the secures of this world and people who I always. I used to disregard and not even appreciate. I see them from a completely different perspective. Because once you understand what he does to your brain and how not just your brain and your body, too, being more secure, we now know, affects much more than just how happy you're going to be in your romantic relationships. It even affects how we shop. Like, people are secure, don't care as much about brand names and stuff. It affects when we look for a job, it affects our health. They had this one study that showed that people with fibromyalgia, when they were secure, they actually, they got along better with their care health provider, but also they reported less pain, and they were able to manage their illness better over time. So the benefits of being secure really goes way beyond just, like, how happy we're going to be in our romantic relationships. And so I've come to really appreciate the important role that these people play in my life. And I also have come to really see the insecure interactions in a much different light. I see it more as a preoccupation rather than something that I need to fix this. And the good moments are not that good to me anymore because I understand that it comes with a price.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, I have a couple questions. One, do you have tips and tricks? And of course we know the book, but we, for people who haven't read the book or plan on it to become more secure in all of these things. And my other question is, I'm stuck on the predictable a little bit because I feel like we have a negative connotation with predictable. I can lean into all of the others. And I'm married to, like, the most secure man Alive. The consistency, availability, responsiveness, reliability, and then predictable. Because I think typically, romantically, you're like. I like a little surprise and thrill. And I think predictability. I was surprised that that's on the list.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. But when I think about you, I think about, like, if I need something, if something really is bad in my life, that's reliable.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

But I can predict what you will do. You will drop everything. You will show up.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So I'm so glad you brought this up because actually I have a section in the chapter. I think it's chapter three. No, it's chapter two where I actually say a word about predictable because I know that.

[Ashley Hess]

I want you to explain it. Yeah.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So when I mean predictable, I mean it from an attachment perspective. And from an attachment perspective, what predictable means is that there's no, like, ghosting surprises that you don't just drop on the face of the earth all of a sudden. It doesn't mean that they can throw you a surprise birthday party. I don't know. You see, on TikTok, when they take the. I don't know if I would like that. But maybe, like, when, you know, you go on the plane and you don't know your destination, your vacation destination, I

[Raina Greenberg]

wonder if it's like, you know, you know, some people, you just. You don't know what you're gonna get when you walk into a room with them. And like, when you have an experience, a social experience or a romantic experience, like, I don't know what I'm gonna get day to day. And it's worse than being, like, unreliable to me because it's like sometimes they are and sometimes they're not. I want somebody whose behavior I can

[Dr. Amir Levine]

predict, the way that I see it is reliable. They're there. Do you know that they're going to be there for you? But predictable is that you know that they're always going to be there for you. If they can't, if they, like. Unless they're like, something horrible has happened and they can't show up for you.

[Ashley Hess]

I just wanted to dive into it a little bit because I actually don't think unpredictable is positive. I wouldn't describe my best friends or my husband that way either. It's just kind of like I wanted to just make the note that, like, someone. Yeah, no, no, you're completely right, in a good way. And they still. I want predictable, like, thrill you and surprise you and.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

No, no, in like, in the whole context of the car. Because I can also. I think I even wrote in the book that I Have a friend who predictably never picks up the check, like, where there's, like, going into a meal,

[Raina Greenberg]

so you pick a cheap place for dinner with that person. I like what you said. Like, always, it's like, yes, they'll do this, but always they'll do this and that. It doesn't sound boring to me at all.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I like that that gives our social brains such reassurance, because, remember, again, it's about safety. And we drive. We derive our safety from knowing that the people around us are going to be there for us. Because people think, oh, if I have a lot of money in the bank, if I have an expensive car like a condo, that's going to make me feel safe and secure. But these things. Things don't make us feel safe at all, because these things didn't even exist when our emotional brain formed. So it just doesn't work that way. It's really through our connections with others. And surprisingly, it's through all these little things. It's not that people think, oh, the big things that would really matter. But actually, our brain attachment is like a surveillance. It doesn't really look for the big things. It actually surveys all the time for the availability of the other person. It's almost like there's a thread between you and the person that you're attached to and you can sort of tug it and you know where they are on the other side. But all of a sudden, if it's been snapped and you don't feel the other person on the other side, you feel very unsettled. That's actually like a line from Margot's Got Money Problem. Oh, yeah, she actually. She actually describes that at a certain point. The other. The guy. I don't want to spoil too much, but the guy doesn't respond to her anymore. And she felt. She describes. She said, it's almost like there's a thread between us and it's been snapped away. And it's this horrifying sensation. She's such a good description of an activated attachment.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, just going to take a quick break. I am telling you guys about FP movement.

[Raina Greenberg]

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[Ashley Hess]

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[Raina Greenberg]

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[Ashley Hess]

So try all that out. Check them out for their shorts and tanks and teas and all the things that you guys need for summer. Visit fpmovement.comdge to shop their full line of activewear and workout gear. That is fpmovement.com GGE for the full line.

[Raina Greenberg]

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[Dr. Amir Levine]

So these are the most important things. It's not about like, so here's the, here's a common scenario that happens when people don't know about carp C mes.

[Ashley Hess]

You said seeme and it's seemingly insignificant minor interaction. That's the acronym, right?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

There's only two acronyms in the book and that's it.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes, the CARP and the CIMI.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Knowing about CARP SIMIs really changes the whole picture. Like a couple who've been sort of been dating for newly dating or even dating long term, they go, they spend the whole weekend together. They have an amazing time. They go on expensive, they go to a show, they have dinner like the next day they go shopping together. He even buys her like an expensive purse or a bag. And then because he's more avoidant, come Monday he forgets to text her in the morning. He usually always texts her every morning. She is like, oh my God, being more anxious. This is it. I know what it's like. We were too close and now they're pulling away. It's the beginning of the end. Because remember I told you anxious are very sensitive to potential danger in a relationship. And they really feel that relationships can be very fragile. So they're like, oh, I don't know, what should I do? Like, no, if I'll text now, let's be, I'm even more needy. Then I'll just like, I'm going to wait for him. And they're like sitting all day, like very anxious, can't even think about their work. Like come evening, let's say they like he calls her or he texts her, she either doesn't respond because she's upset, or when she answers the phone, she's very cold. And he's like, hey, what's happening? Like, I'm like, oh, like, no, you didn't text me in the morning. So him being avoidant, he thinks this is crazy. I mean, we just spent this whole weekend together. We were so close. How much more does she need? There's no end to how much this person needs. She's so needy. I don't know if that's going to work. All the while not understanding the importance of like for attachment system, of this sort of forming this baseline. You don't get credit forward of closeness, which avoidance thinks that you do. It doesn't work that way because it's a radar system. So it's like if you tripped a switch, you tripped a switch. It's an on and off, and then that's going to be hard. So if you know that and you can teach avoidance to be okay if you have a certain baseline and you text every morning, sometimes even, especially after you had a very close weekend, you need to text that morning. And then if you don't, you're going to get a backlash. And that's exactly what you don't want. But they kind of like reaffirm each other's beliefs in the most ridiculous way where it all could have been circumvented very easily if they were just like, let's say he forgot. And she was like, oh, you know, you didn't text me. And he was like, yeah, you know what? I'm really. No, I wasn't. Carp. I'm sorry. Even I have it with my friends. And I have this friend. We've been friends for more than 20 years. And at times it wasn't an easy friendship. Even, like for about a year and a half, we didn't speak. And I think a few weeks ago he called me once and I forgot to return the call. And then he texted me and I was so busy with the launch of the book and everything, and I didn't really get back to him, but then we talked again and he said, well, you've been off your Carp game. And I knew exactly what he was talking about. And I said, yes, you're right. I'm so sorry. There's been so much going on. But you'll see, I'm going to make it up. I'm going to make it up to you now by being extra available. And in the past, I would have become defensive. He probably would have sulk and not said anything or would have said, you've hurt my feelings. But here we had a very specific language. He didn't say, you hurt my feelings. It's like, you weren't carp. And I felt it. And we didn't even have to say anything. I know what he does, how he can and jolt the attachment system. And I immediately apologized and corrected my ways. It saved us so much energy and so much time.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's funny, that story you told about the couple. I feel that in my soul. I feel like everybody's had that experience where the avoidant person's like, we had a great time. I don't know what the problem is here. And the anxious person has told themselves a story the entire day and worked themself up into this tizzy. And by the time it comes out, the other person's like, yikes, I can't be with you.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

And both of those people have a little work to do.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So it's like if both understand the logic of attachment, There's a certain logic of attachment that runs through all of our relationships. And it's a very simple logic, but a lot of it is pre language, because attachment forms before we can even speak. And that's why I really wanted to give the specific tools that people understand more specifically. Specifically what is happening to our emotional brain. Because people go, you hurt my feelings. And they start going. They don't know to describe more exactly what's going on and what they need. But once you learn that, you can really circumvent. There's so much relationship strife by really addressing specifically what the social brain needs in that example.

[Ashley Hess]

Because I really want to just, like, wrap that up. Because I think that's really typical for a lot of people. You have an avoidant and anxious. And if one of those people just would have been secure, this. This interaction probably wouldn't have happened. They wouldn't have been clocked in that way. So when you have an anxious and an avoidant, is there a hope for them? Because how can a person just say, I need you to harp. And the avoidance, like, what do you mean?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I'm glad that you pointed it out because you were even highlighting it. It's such a good question. Because what can people do? Both are at fault. Right. Like the fact that he didn't text that morning. It's because he needed a little bit more. It was a lot for him that weekend.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

And he needed a little, like. So they sometimes not even. They're not. Not even completely. They're not even aware that they're doing it. And I think I give an example in the book. It's like, oh, I go back and I start working and I'm busy in what I'm doing. And then all of a sudden I'm getting like, people are hitting up my phone or if I reach out to someone, they're like, upset with me that I didn't, like, respond before, that I like, I like, I dropped the ball on them. It's not just with romantic partner. It happens to them. Also with, with friends. In the class on Masterclass and also insecure, I talk about the three pitfalls of people with avoidant attachment style that they often fall into. And that's one of the pitfalls that I just described. It's not learning, not respecting. I give it a very sort of. Because I'm a science geek, so I give it a geeky name. Not learning to respect the attachment homeostasis, but what Homeostasis is basically baseline. So you teach avoidance that there's an attachment baseline and that if you're going to disrupt that baseline, you're going to pay. Because what's going to happen is you're going to activate the other person and now they're going to cling to you even more. And that's exactly the opposite of what you want. So you learn how to give the other person what they need more like the attachment that forms between you, what they need so they'll leave you alone. So it's not like, oh, you have to be more. Or I sell it to avoidant insecure primary therapy. It's like, this is for you. This is not for you to be so nice to the other person. This is a way for you to be nice to you. Because if you do this little seemy thing, this seemingly insignificant minor interaction of a tiny little text, you bought yourself your whole day that they're not going to be thinking about you at all.

[Raina Greenberg]

Is it sort of like with avoidant people? Do you have to train them to explain to other people in their lives, like, I just need a little more. More distance sometimes? I mean, definitely I haven't had to do that with romantic partners necessarily, but with friends of mine, especially when she and I get really busy with work, I. I am not that responsive via text. And I think it can really tug on people's anxious attachment. My friends being like, are you mad at me? I'm checking in with you. I'm saying, how was your show?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

You triggered their attachment style. Yes, yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

I've had to over the years send quite A few text messages to just say, like, I'm not. I promise I'm not mad at you. This is a me thing. So do you teach people to do that?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Of course. That's exactly what you teach people to, actually. So you can even become preemptively more things like, hey, the sooner you reply, the better. Right. Hey, I'm so busy. You can even prepare for avoidance. You can prepare, like, a little automatic text that you can send to people that you don't have to start going through all the texting. I'm so busy this next two weeks. There's so much going on. Miss you. Reach out as soon as it's over. And if I don't reach out, reach out again. I'm so happy to hear from you. Something like that. That's it. Done.

[Ashley Hess]

And I think when you have a history with people, they understand. I mean, consistency and reliability. It's like my friends that have been friends with me for years and the same with Raina know that there's times in my life when I'm less responsive, and they give me that grace because they know that it will ebb and flow because of our life. I mean, I think you can't be the exact same consistency, reliability, responsiveness to every single person in your life all the time. And people that have the history, they understand that and they give you that grace.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Exactly. So you can build up your carp credit that you can build up because then people do learn.

[Ashley Hess]

Exactly.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

People do learn that you actually mean well and that you want to be there. It's more about this idea of, like, really feeling that that thing is not. That has been snapped away and all of a sudden, like, yes. So you want to keep that thread, that feeling that they're there for them.

[Raina Greenberg]

Does somebody who is avoidant, do they want to do these things like me? Sometimes I'm just like, I don't really want to be bothered. It's against my will to send these text messages.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I love this. No, I know. No, no. That's Avoidant. I love that you say that because it's such classic avoidant response.

[Ashley Hess]

She's not.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, I'm telling you, I. I appear very differently to different people.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

And you can avoidant with your friends. And it's actually, I've heard that across, like, a lot. With friends, you can be more. It's classic avoidant with friends. And, like, so. And that's part of what I'm trying to explain to Avoidant. It's like, by not doing that, you actually end up having to Send like longer texts, spend more time. It's for you more than for them even because it will save you so much time. You'll give you the time that you need by sending something very short. But there's sometimes it's very hard to avoidance to come into terms with it. It's like, no, I don't want to do that. Like they need. So that's the other part of it. It's like they need to take care of themselves. I don't expect them to do that for me. And that's kind of like the other pitfall that I talk about in Secure and in the class on Masterclass is more how you don't understand the avoidance. Are about 20, 25% of the population and oftentimes that's part of their superpowers. They don't need reassurance. In many ways they're very self sufficient but they don't understand that other people are not like that, that other people really do need that. And when you form a more secure relationship with them, it's like that's how you build your carb credit. They don't really think about you much. Secure relationships really fade into the background because we understand there's a, there's a connection between our attachment and our exploratory drive. And you can see it easily in kids if they play with toys like and then the mom is there every once in a while they're like, oh my God, all these amazing toys. I don't remember if you remember that you used to love like going to toy like toy stores and looking at all these different things. You get so excited. Yeah, right. And then every once in a while I like to say that mommy's there and that's it. But you don't really care. But, but have the mom disappear all of a sudden from the store and you start crying and where's mom? And then I'll try to give you a toy, you'll throw it in my face. You couldn't care less. So it's easy to see how like being, having that availability of the other person keeps you engaged in the world and you don't really think about them. It's easier to see it in kids, but it's the same in adults. And that friend that texts you and all of a sudden you disappeared. It's like, oh my God. But she's not there. She's mad at me, this and that. It's like that distress that gets instigated. But if they looked and they checked and they saw that you there. And it's like, okay, they're not going to think about you. They're going to continue on. We don't play with toys, but we create podcasts. We write books with all these different things in our life.

[Ashley Hess]

Can you tell us the other percentages? Because people love numbers and percentages. You said 20% of the population is avoidant. Is. Are there a percentage that. Are they rough or.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So this was like the first study, they found about 25% avoidant, 20% anxious, 54% secure, and a very small number fearful, avoidant. But I think people now say that there's more insecurity now, but it's very hard to measure that.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, people are self. They're self reporting.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah, it's all self report. And also there's more of a spectrum. And like you said yourself, we can be different with different people and different pets. So it kind of like really changes. But definitely there is this idea that we can all become more secure and that we can really change and become more secure. And if we understand, especially, I think, even more so, definitely, with the help of secure people. But also we can learn these little tricks, these little tools to really get us to a more secure place, to act in a more secure way.

[Raina Greenberg]

So on the other side of the coin, somebody who's really anxious, how do you talk to them about not needing that text in the morning and then telling yourself all these stories throughout the day about why I'm not getting or walking away from somebody that treats you like that.

[Ashley Hess]

Right. And, like, find a secure person? It seems like they bridge the gap. Like, I can't. It's. To me, the. The anxious and the avoidant are so far from each other on the spectrum. Like, it seems like an anxious person is fixed, not that anything's wrong with them by a secure person. And the same with an avoidant. Like, it's like the secure partners out there in the world, the 50% are the ones that are bridging the gap with the anxious and the avoidant partners.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

First of all, there's. So there's something that I call the CARP intervention. And so when you see that someone is not being CARP and they, like, trigger the worst in you, then you do the CARP intervention. You don't tell them, are you okay? Are you mad at me? You text and you say, hey to me. It's really important that people are consistent, available, and responsive in my life. And I try to be that way, but it really affects me badly if people aren't. And so just letting you know that. So you do that carp intervention. And remember that I told you that we all have a secure kernel within us. So it's almost like you summon something. You give the option of someone to show up to you in a different way, and then you wait and see. And if they were able to be carp with you, wow, that's great. I call it like a secure village. You've recruited another person to your secure village. And if they're not, then for anxious specifically, I have this tool that's called World Tennis with Love.

[Ashley Hess]

Let's hear about it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, talk to us about it, Walt.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Tennis with Love is. I don't know if you've ever played tennis against the wall, but whatever you dish to the wall, the wall returns in about the same velocity in the same way. It doesn't initiate. So in wall 10, it's the love. You're the anxious person. The other person is not carp. Then you become the wall. You don't initiate, but whenever they reach out to you, you respond to them with love, because you want to. Also, you don't want. You're not, like, engaging in protest behavior. You're not ignoring them. You know all the stuff that you do when you like. Yeah. When you're trying. When you're, like, upset with someone, you don't do that. You engage with them with love. So, for example, I have a friend that I'm doing wall tennis with love with, and it's a different friend, and also with them, it wasn't such an easy relationship. And I can show you on my phone, like, he would text me, hi, so I'm the wall. I text immediately hi back if. I mean, as soon as I can. A week goes by, I don't hear anything, I don't say anything. Then I get another hi. After a week, I text hi again. Then two days go by, then he calls me. So I answer the phone and we talk, and we have a really nice conversation. And it's nice, actually. Whereas before, we didn't get along, and it was like, hi. And it's like, then I would send you there, question mark. And he would ignore me for a week. And by the time he was like. And so I don't respond at all. I'm the wall. I can't. In the past, I used to try to call him if something was going on and I didn't feel well, I would call and I would get rebuffed, and I would get upset, and it would be so many ups and downs. I don't. I don't do that. Like I have. I created this map for myself and I know who the secure people in my life are and I call them, I don't call this person and I talk to them. But actually it really preserved the relationship with him because I don't have expectations from him for closeness or availability or carp that he can't meet. And actually it's become a really, really good relationship. I feel that we become closer in some ways. Even though I will not initiate.

[Raina Greenberg]

Because you've kind of let go of your expectations of it.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah. So I don't really. I'm not gonna do something that then will backfire and then will upset me.

[Ashley Hess]

For friendships that you want to preserve, clearly that's the answer. But for a romantic relationship, I mean, do you feel like the advice is a little different because then you're just taking what someone's willing to give you at the expense of yourself and your own well being. At a certain point, like, you hope your security is going to rub off, but it may or may not. Right.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like the anxious person. You gave great advice for how the anxious person should deal with somebody they're dating. But like, how do you say to yourself, it's time to. It's too much time to walk away here.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Here's the thing. I think let's say someone that you're with, like you're in a relationship with and they're more avoidant and they can't really give you everything that you need. I actually have an example of this woman who is very like, she really needs a lot of input about like what she wears and what she buys. And she used to drive her husband and then also her kids crazy. She's like, should I wear this, should I wear that? Or should I buy this? Should I buy that? And like, oh, he's so why can't you make your own decisions? And then she found these other two women who also really love to be consult and be consulted.

[Ashley Hess]

Circle the drain with all those questions. Yeah.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

And now they're constantly on FaceTime with each other, like shopping, sending pictures to other people completely. And what seemed to be like, she's so needy now actually turned out to like, she's super collaborative and really there and able to kind of like really give advice and get advice from these two other women in her life. And they're constantly like, together go back and forth. And that's another thing that I talk about in Insecure and like, about your hidden sparks of talent and how something that you can actually a lot of people, people with anxious attachment Experiences and impediment is actually like a hidden spark of talent that if giving the right environment will have a chance to shine. So we have this idea that we have to get everything from our romantic partner. But we're very savvy social species and we can actually get different things from different people and if we can actually learn to develop it more. She used to be so upset about her the way that her husband and her kids would sort of react to her. And if I tell her like what like she wouldn't even remember that that was ever imminent an issue I think because it's like, oh, it's really interesting.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's. It's just sort of just like outsource what you need to other people and have your needs met and maybe you just won't feel it. I mean the answer is clearly not leave your husband and your children unless I mean you do whatever you want. But you know, I think that you're saying she found a community of people that kind of validated who she was and made her feel more secure and so she showed up more secure in these other relationships.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

But. And this idea of outsourcing itself is an idea that I would sort of argue it's actually more in line with how we as a human species are that we have a need for greater connected connection to others. And that's part of those all these connected seemees, those see mes. I really extended it beyond my immediate relationships. I was to be the first person who would ever go into an Uber. Like don't talk to me like looking into my phone, just like maybe saying hi, hi. So I'll get my five stars. But like nothing beyond that. Right. Try to sort of be as polite as possible so I don't get a bad review. But since I've written this book like attached and I also, I've rediscovered how this connectedness and how actually giving attention. There's this philosopher that I quote insecure Simon, Simon Bey, this French philosopher. It's like fascinating woman. And she said that attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. And I never really thought about giving someone attention as a form of generosity. But now that I see it that way, I'm like, yeah, I'm going to talk to the Uber driver. And amazing things have happened since I started doing that. I've talked to this one guy in London, an Uber driver about his kid. He used to tell me how he used to get into fights all the time. He was really hot headed and now he had a kid who then turned out to have autism and how he now started this whole network for parents with kids with autism. And I actually, because I'm a child psychiatrist, I gave him a few numbers of people he can reach out to at Columbia. And so I formed all these different connections with different people around the world. And the science you'll read and you'll see, it's incredible. We always think about using all these different creams for our faces to look healthier, but actually being connected slows down our biological aging. It's kind of incredible. Much more so than all of these supplements and all of those peptides. The science doesn't back any of those up. All the stuff that you see that's supposed to help you on TikTok, most of it is just bogus. But the science of connectedness, there's so many really well made studies that show us how it actually increases longevity, increases our health, and slows down biological aging on a cellular level and happier societies.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, it just, it kind of sounds like to sum it up, I mean, you tell me if I'm wrong, but somebody who's anxious really needs to build out a secure community of friends almost. And then you will be less susceptible to some real avoidant bullshit in your romantic life. And I think people that are extremely avoidant in their romantic life have a tough time because when somebody starts being avoidant, it tugs every single part of you into them and.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Right.

[Raina Greenberg]

Maybe if you build a life out around you that kind of de. Escalates that you'll just be like, I don't, I don't have time for this bullshit.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

But at the same time, I have to say, when you're dating, it's really like lead in with that carb thing. This woman who, like, she hooked up with this guy on Tinder. It was just a hookup. They spent the night together and she didn't. Never thought anything would come out of it, but they had an amazing time together and they felt they really connected. So then a week later, they hooked up again. And in between the two hookups, like, she was trying to text him, but he wasn't very responsive. But she really didn't make much of it because she was like, whatever, it's just like, just fun. But then after the second night in the morning, she felt that there was something even, even more so she said she told him, look, for me, it's very important that people in my life will be consistent, available and responsive. And I saw that with those texts, like, it didn't really. I saw that you're not like it wasn't exactly like that. So I feel that there's something there. And if it's. But if it's gonna work, you need to be. You need to be more carp. Because otherwise I know myself and if I don't hear back from you, I'm just gonna be heating up your phone. And I don't like that. I don't like to be that way. I don't like that about myself. So it's not going to work. And he said, you know, like, all of my friends, like, say that I never responded. And I'm really not good at that, but I'm going to try.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

And now several years later, and I think, like, one child, like two kids. Yeah. Like, they've been married. And when you talk to him and he really. And when he doesn't call her, she will hit up his phone. Like, she would call him like 10 times in a row. And then he. But he was like, hey, baby, sorry, I couldn't talk. And he was just like, that's it. It wouldn't be like a big upset. And when you talk to him, he will say, you know, when she put it that way, it didn't feel like such a huge ask. I could understand it. And he didn't feel like, oh, because I was abandoned as a child or all of that? No. It was like, this is how I am and that's what I need. So she was able to summon that secure thing from him and he was able to show up in a more secure way.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, these are good qualities to have. All you're doing is asking someone, like, I'd really love consistency who to who. I mean, I would hate if someone described me as inconsistent, unreliable, like the unpredictable, all those things. It's like you're just kind of saying, like, I want a partner that has these really positive attributes. Are you willing to step up to the plate?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

But also remember, it's not that hard to be. And that's the thing for avoidant to understand.

[Ashley Hess]

That's what I'm saying.

[Raina Greenberg]

But for avoidance it is. I think it's for somebody that feels like I have a hard time, like, clocking into intimacy, but it's like it

[Ashley Hess]

feels like they're rejecting it. Cause if they don't want to be pushed around or something, you know, like, someone that has that ability to be secure shouldn't really be phased by this. Like, hey, do you mind just like texting me? Consistently responding to me, but also that

[Dr. Amir Levine]

actually, like, the way that I present it to Avoidance. It's actually if you. Because they also want a connection.

[Raina Greenberg]

Sure.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

If you really want your distance, learn how to use the attachment logic to your benefit. Learn. And we do that all the time. It's much easier to see in kids. You're not going to wait to feed a child until they're very, very hungry. You're not going to put them to sleep when they're super, super tired because you're going to get the backlash of it.

[Ashley Hess]

You anticipate their needs.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah. So as an adult, if you learn to work with the attachment neurocircuitry rather than sort of butt heads with it all the time, it's going to work so much to your advantage and people are going to leave you alone. You're going to get the space that you need. All you need to do is do some preemptive action and understand the logic of how the attachment works because you keep butting heads with it and then you keep sort of like getting the short end of the stick.

[Raina Greenberg]

I like that you said avoiding people. They want attachment too and they want to feel love and companionship. They present as, I don't want this and this is a pain to me, but they want it as well. And if you can give them. Them some tools to not feel so irritated and put upon by somebody else.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. So you have in the book that security is contagious. And we touched on it a little bit and like building this secure village. And I think that's really important. And I want to just hear you speak on it, like again, why it's so important to. I use the word rub off. That's just kind of a lighter way to phrase it. And I think of a friend we have. I remember one time we were at dinner and she was like, you seem really secure. And she was like, I want to channel that more in parts of my life. And I. I feel like we have watched her become more secure, like over time. And I think we have seen her choose some different type of friendships than she may have in the past. And it has turned out to be contagious. And so I just wanted to hear you speak on that.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

That's the way that you just described it. That's kind of like taking the whole idea behind secure priming therapy and putting it in a nutshell. Basically, what attachment styles are, is it's a working model. It's a script that our brain has about what to expect from the world. But if we present the brain with evidence to the contrary, no, relationships are not that fragile. No. People Are not going to disappoint you all the time. No, people are not going to pull away from you. The type people actually are going to show up for you. And when you want closeness, if you send them talking about a picture, about a cloth, they'll like send you something right back. They tell you yeah, it's good or no, wear the green dress and not the red dress. And they're going to be. So all these little simies, the small interactions, each one of them is an opportunity for your brain to change. And when you understand your signs, it really changes on a molecular level to become more secure. So you kind of like I become like this pac man going and sort of collecting all those secure simis around in my life because I understand how much it contributes to the well being of my brain. That feeling of being hyper connected to others. But each person has to do it on their own. We are different animals and you can see it in dogs. Like my dog is a little bit more avoidant. He likes. He's not going to be like when you see on TikTok those dogs that are constantly at your face on you all the time. No, he's gonna be, he's now somewhere in a different room now he's gonna be at the edge of the bed. He's doesn't.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes, he wants to be in the room with us, he wants the people around but he will not ever lay on us. And it's, you know.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Right, exactly about him.

[Raina Greenberg]

He's Ashley, she wants to be invited but don't touch her.

[Ashley Hess]

I want to be around people always but don't be on me too much.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Right. So we all bring our own biology to the mix and it's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. We just have to communicate to people that it's not about them. We have to learn to use the logic, the attachment logic that can help us ease into something that works better and doesn't cost the snipping of the cord, the attachment cord. So when we learn to do that again with whatever our biology needs, then we get this really more. It's really what security is, is about stability and stability of our nervous system.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes. Yeah, well, I mean we have to I guess wrap up with you but congratulations on the masterclass and the new book and it really is just fantastic and we encourage people to get that and read that. Can you tell everybody where they can find you and your work and anything else?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah, definitely. So I would say like to do the quiz and get your attachment style, the map, topography, you can go to AmirLevinemdash. You can take the quiz there. My class on masterclass on the masterclass website and I also have training for therapists and people who do coaching that I'm going to start in the fall. So you can go to my website and you can leave your email and then we'll send you more information when the time comes.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay? Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

All right.

[Ashley Hess]

Amazing. Do you feel like we covered it all? Any final parting thoughts or. We just want to make sure. We could sit here and talk to you forever, but just make sure we covered it.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

One more thing. I mean, if you have a few minutes, I can tell you I. You don't have to, but you can include it.

[Ashley Hess]

We're here on your schedule. You have the fl.

[Raina Greenberg]

I've been trying to get you on this show for years. You were really hard to find. And when we got the email that you wanted to come on the show, I was like, get up.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, so.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So there's one thing insecure. And I think I also talk about it in the cla. In the class and masterclass. I talk about there's like these two rules of secure engagement. Like once you get into an argument how to deal with it from an attachment perspective. So maybe I thought it'll be cool if I just mentioned that because I.

[Ashley Hess]

Let's do it.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah, it's been super helpful in my life and the life of my patients and everybody that I know. So there's two rules. The one rule says that only one person is allowed to be upset at a time. And the attachment logic behind it is like if you think about secure attachment, like secures are really good in helping other people calm down. That's really one of the biggest function of a secure bond is that if something bad happens to me, if I turn to someone that I'm securely attached to, sometimes a single word or a hug will make me feel better, like instantaneously. There's no Klonopin or Xanax in the world that gets even close to that effect because we're such highly social species. But insecure attachment can also be one of the biggest instigator of emotional upset. So if we understand the role of a secure attachment, then we know that if one person is upset, then the secure bond means that the other person should really find a way, if they can, to help the other person calm down, to really function as that secure anchor to the world. But that's not always that easy to do because when we're attached to someone, it's like. Like we Become like one physiological unit and it reverberates. So when they're upset, it's very easy for us to get upset just by the nature of the bond. So then if both are upset, usually what happens now when people, like some of my patients would say, like one would get upset and the other would get upset and they would say, wait, wait a second. Only one is allowed to be upset at the time. And I was upset first, so it's my turn and they start laughing. So but if that doesn't dissipate things, then there's the second rule, the follow up rule, the mea culpa rule. She's like, it's my fault and it's my fault. Now what happens if you're both upset then now you both need to apologize to each other. You apologize for the fact that you weren't able to function, to fulfill your secure role in your relationship of helping reach stability, that emotional stability again, oftentimes what people do is like they want to get no, but I'm right and you're right. Attachment doesn't care about who's right and who's wrong. Because for attachment, it's not about all these arguments and it doesn't mean that's a lot of chatter that comes from the prefrontal cortex and use a lot of words, but attachment is pre verbal attachment. The right thing from an attachment perspective is how do I feel connected to you again? And then you can argue about, about who's right and who's wrong tomorrow. But usually people don't even care about that because it's not really about that. So once you learn how to apologize like that and really help to calm the system down between the two of you, that really. And not worry so much about who's right and how you have to explain yourself and all of that stuff, you really are more true to the attachment logic of what you need from each other in an argument.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think it's really great. I think a lot of couples just really need to be kosher on how to communicate with each other. And I've certainly dated people that just have grew up with a very different parental lifestyle than I did and they have a different baseline and need something different.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, and friendships too. I mean, since you brought it up, the friend that I just mentioned, the one that was like, you're really secure and I would like to be more like that. We had a conflict and listen, I, I do identify as secure, but I can be combative and I can get defensive and I can feel that anger in my gut, like I really am like quick. Not as quick to anger as I used to be. But we were having this combative type argument with some over something so stupid. And she really was like, took it to a. I think we should take some space. We had some plans, I think we should cancel those. Like I tried to break up with me and some switch flipped in me and I was like, I have to in this moment de escalate this, apologize. What are we doing here? We're friends. We're better than this. Like, I love you. This was so silly. Let's put this past us, us. And I was able to do it in a way that I have not always been able to do in the past in romantic relationships and even friendships. And it like saved our relationship. I could feel her about to end this friendship and I was able to like stop and have a little self talk of like, let me be the one to fix this in this moment. And we laughed about it even within hours.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

And still that's exactly what I was talking about. You see, it's like you apologized not necessarily about the argument and all that, but you really found a way to reconnect on the level that that's what the attachment really system cares about. And she didn't really. She just didn't know what to do with her like all those like really difficult feelings and you were able to really calm everything down. That's exactly what I talk about. And so it's really nice when two get really upset. One, at least there needs to be one secure adult in the room. But it's even better. Both know that it's both of their roles.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm not always the adult. I want to be clear. But yes, I just my one claim to fame.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

No, but you saw how effective it was.

[Raina Greenberg]

I had conflict with her recently. It was beautiful. And I think she really learned from that situation.

[Ashley Hess]

But yeah, we just. I really like that you framed it that way.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

But it's actually, it's something that we can practice. And that's how I actually also end the, the book and the class. I say it's really a secure practice. None of us are going to be perfect in this, this. But knowing the tools and knowing you know what, this is escalating, like you got to it just like instinctively, like I need to do something here. I need to step in and I apologized and I sort of made things better. And then all of a lo and behold, he's like, and you still remember it till. And like obviously you told us the story because the effect was amazing.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. So I think that's, like, something always to keep in mind. And we get asked that a lot. Like, I conflict with a partner, with a friendship, with a parent. And so I love the message. Overall, these attachment styles are not fixed. It's a practice. None of us are just born with these tools. And, you know, the books are a great place to learn it for sure.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah, that's good.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, thank you for everything. This was really fantastic. And congrats on everything that you have had come out recently. And I know our audience will just eat it up.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I just. I was reading some reviews of the book, and it's just, you know, it's been out a month about. And it's just started changing people's lives. And so thank you for putting this out there after Attached. And we just. We really appreciate it. And you guys check out the masterclass and we already kind of gave your. Your plugs earlier and then we dove back in. But everybody know I know masterclass, books, all the things. So we really appreciate your time.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah, thank you. I had a lot of fun. It was fun talking to you guys.

[Ashley Hess]

Great. You too.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Okay.

[Ashley Hess]

All right, well, thank you guys for being here as always. Girls Gotta Eat Dot com. Girls Gotta eat Podcast on Instagram and Tick Tock. I am Ash Hess on Instagram and Tick tock. Raina is raina.greenberg. raina greenberg.com for her fall tour tickets, full video on Spotify and YouTube. We would love if you would leave a comment on Spotify, subscribe on YouTube, share this episode with really anyone and we will see you Thursday.

[Raina Greenberg]

Have a good week, guys. Bye. Bye,

[Ashley Hess]

Sam.