I Love Men (and That's the Problem) with Liz Plank

Summary

Podcast Summary: Girls Gotta Eat – "I Love Men (and That's the Problem)" with Liz Plank

Podcast: Girls Gotta Eat (Dear Media)
Episode Air Date: March 2, 2026
Guest: Liz Plank – journalist, author, host of the Boy Problems podcast
Main Theme: A candid and comedic exploration of modern dating, relationships, and gender roles, with a special focus on how patriarchy impacts both women and men.

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Episode Overview

In this lively and engaging episode, co-hosts Ashley Hesseltine and Raina Greenberg welcome Liz Plank, award-winning journalist and author of For the Love of Men, to discuss why loving men (and dating them) can be so challenging in a world structured by patriarchy. They blend comedic takes with deep dives into personal and societal dynamics of gender, relationships, sexual politics, and the evolution of intimacy. Along the way, they answer listener questions about friendship dilemmas, dating dynamics, masculinity, feminism, and the quest for fulfillment—inside and outside of romance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Friendship Dilemma: Sober vs. Drunk Confessions

[07:22-19:10]

• Email Summary: Listener is torn about whether to confront a friend who says contradictory things about her boyfriend when drunk vs. sober—expressing both doubts and outward affection.
• Hosts' Advice:
  • Ashley: You can have a one-time, lovingly framed conversation—avoid being accusatory, don’t repeatedly press the issue.

    "You're not the relationship police...I would have that conversation once, and I wouldn't press it again." (07:22)

  • Raina: Drunk confessions about sex and attraction are revealing, others (like missing "hoe phase") are less telling. A supportive ear, not judgment, is key. It’s about giving permission for honesty, not pressure for action.
• Are Drunk Thoughts Sober Feelings? (14:36 onwards):
  • Hosts agree: not always. Alcohol lowers inhibitions and amplifies emotions, but doesn’t always reveal deep truths.

    "Alcohol lowers inhibition and amplifies emotion... My drunk thoughts are my sober feelings I haven't edited." – Ashley (15:04) "I have never loved this phrase...think of all the things you've done (drunk) you would never do sober." – Raina (15:46)

2. The Complexities of Modern Masculinity & Feminism

[30:39–47:01]

• Liz on the Purpose of Her Book:
  • Wrote For the Love of Men to address how patriarchy harms both genders and why feminism benefits men, too.

    "I was blown away by how little I had learned about how men benefit from feminism... the most feminist countries are the happiest." – Liz (37:00)

  • Men are the "first victims" of patriarchy; societal expectations harm their health, emotions, and fulfillment.

    "Feminist scholars have been saying this forever... men are the first victims of patriarchy. They get victimized and then they victimize us." – Liz (40:40)

• Patriarchy Hurts Everyone:
  • Men aren't naturally invested in oppressive systems—they’re often indoctrinated and rarely questioned about masculinity.

    "I was really perplexed by the lack of men who were interested in gender equality... I'm the first person to ask them about their relationship to masculinity." – Liz (39:29)

  • Raina: The happiest men are emotionally healthy and respect women.

3. How Politics Shapes Relationships and Gender Discourse

[47:02–56:53]

• Growth of division and tension in recent years, particularly surrounding politics and relationships.
• Many listeners struggle with partners whose political choices clash with their values, feeling personally betrayed.
• Liz's optimistic take: This may be "patriarchy's last tantrum," with real opportunities for change after the crisis.
• Coping with Societal Overload:
  • Practice kindness, small acts of service, and community engagement to counteract "doom scrolling" and powerlessness.

    "Be of service, be of service... do something nice for your neighbor, it does help." – Liz (54:06) "Power is something you give to people... you really do matter." – Liz (55:44)

4. Dating Men: Professions, Types, and Why We’re Drawn to the Wrong Ones

[59:53–69:49]

• Dating by Profession:
  • Actors/athletes often want "princess treatment" and orbit around themselves, which ultimately isn’t attractive in a partner who’s a peer.

    "Male actors are divas because they get treated like divas... everything's according to their mood, their schedule." – Liz (61:15)

  • Many women (and men) fall for “stars” because of confidence and the thrill of being chosen.
• Choosing the Wrong Type:
  • Liz: "My type is bad. I don't like my type... charming, attention-giving, but ultimately self-obsessed and manipulative." (63:02)
  • Raina/Ashley: The fantasy of the tall, alpha, rich, present, sensitive man isn’t realistic—traits come bundled, and trade-offs are unavoidable.

    "You got to kind of pick and choose because these traits don't actually fit in one human." – Raina (64:27)

• Women Have Higher Standards – And Should:
  • Evolutionarily and practically, women have more to lose.

    "Women are supposed to be choosy... it’s important." – Liz (66:56)

5. Mourning the Life You Thought You’d Have: Singlehood, Kids, Tradwife Myths

[70:57–77:17]

• Liz and the hosts discuss grieving futures—like marriage or children—that didn’t materialize, but being proud of the lives they did create.

  "I think it's important to acknowledge that... there are two choices on the internet: trad wife or child-free—most of us exist in the middle." – Liz (73:47)

• Liz’s solution: Focus on nurturing self-love and making your life as joyful as possible, no matter which path you’re on.

  "I get to sort of give [my inner child] this amazing life and, and reparent her and get so much out of what she also gives me." – Liz (75:32)

6. Boy Problems: Rapid-Fire Dating Dilemmas

[80:13–89:10]

• Elite Oral, Boring Man?
  • Liz: Manifest a boring, loyal, kind man! But everyone needs to decide how much “boring” they can handle.
  • Ashley/Raina: If you need copious alcohol to get through dates, it’s a deal-breaker.
• Needing Alone Time from a WFH Spouse:
  • Solution: Schedule rotations, communicate kindly, and normalize the need for personal space.
• Partner Insecurity—Dating a “Hot” Man:
  • It’s not about their looks, but how they handle attention that matters.
  • "If he's hot, it's fine. If he's hot and charming, we got a problem." – Liz (85:07)
• Changing Your Last Name:
  • Liz: "It's none of his business. It's your name." (86:46)
  • If he’s insistent, he needs therapy, not you. Suggest he change his name for perspective.
• Late Night Visits with No Hookup:
  • 10pm is booty call territory. If he’s not matching energy, ask directly.

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• On Dating Men:

  "The fact that I still willfully go on dates with men—the fact that we date our number-one predator." – Liz & Ashley (00:00–00:12, repeated at 45:10)

• On Women’s Survival Instincts:

  "Women are supposed to pick the best guys and not the violent, aggressive ones. The only reason we've survived as a species is because women were choosy." – Liz (66:56)

• On The Powerlessness of the Moment:

  "They want you to think you don't (have power), and you do. Power is something you give to people. It is not a currency that people have." – Liz (55:44)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Listener Dilemma & Drunk vs. Sober Truths: 07:22–19:10
• Feminism and Masculinity, Liz's Book: 30:39–47:01
• Politics & Relationship Fallout: 47:02–56:53
• Professions & Why We Date "Stars": 59:53–69:49
• Mourning Lives Not Lived & Modern Singleness: 70:57–77:17
• Rapid-Fire “Boy Problems” Dating Advice: 80:13–89:10

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Episode Takeaways

• Modern dating is complicated by clashing personal, cultural, and political expectations.
• Seeking an ideal partner is about managing tradeoffs—no one, regardless of gender, embodies all the "best" traits.
• Patriarchy harms women and men; being choosy, demanding equality, and practicing care for self and others is radical and necessary.
• Mourning expectations is natural, but the best life is built from conscious choices, not pressure to conform.
• Power to change the world—and your own situation—comes from small acts, choices, and standing up for what matters.

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Follow the Speakers:

• Liz Plank: @feministabulous on Instagram, Liz Plank on YouTube/TikTok, Boy Problems Podcast, Substack, and upcoming film Not So Special.
• Girls Gotta Eat: @girlsgottaeatpodcast on Instagram/TikTok/Youtube, website, live show May 7th (Netflix Is A Joke festival, LA).

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This episode is for anyone navigating love, loss, desire, identity, and power—in a world that doesn’t make it easy.

Transcript

[Liz Plank]

That's what's so amazing, right? Because then you get called a man hater, you know, and you're like, the fact that I still willfully go on dates with men, with strangers that we meet on.

[Ashley Hess]

We date our number one predators.

[Liz Plank]

We date our number one predator.

[Raina Greenberg]

This podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Liz Plank]

Hi, guys.

[Raina Greenberg]

Hi, guys.

[Ashley Hess]

Welcome to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

[Raina Greenberg]

Welcome back.

[Ashley Hess]

If you're tuning in, Ashley is on a plane to Singapore.

[Liz Plank]

Oh, my God.

[Ashley Hess]

I am on a plane back home to New York.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, tonight we leave at night at like, 10, and then we get there on Wednesday morning.

[Ashley Hess]

Isn't that so crazy?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, time zone's so crazy. But then the good thing is when. Basically when you leave Singapore and come back to la, you get home at the same time you left. So, like a Sunday evening. You'll get home on a Sunday evening, like, almost to. To the hour.

[Ashley Hess]

Nothing makes me happier than flying back to the west coast. Get all that time back.

[Raina Greenberg]

So anyway, follow along, you guys. Ash Hess on Instagram. Follow along on my honeymoon brand trip.

[Ashley Hess]

Follow along on my trip back to New York, where I always am. Maybe I'll leave the house. Maybe I won't say house.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. So I just came from CBS and I'm pulling this out like it's a fucking magician. Reina, why are they still doing this? Holy. What is CBS doing? Like, I thought that we had dragged them enough, made fun of it, and talked about the environmental impacts of unnecessary paper like this, and they are still out here.

[Ashley Hess]

Will the. Will the coupon people please speak out? I just want to know, like, who is like, thank God for these coupons? We probably couldn't get them in an app or on the Internet, but these are good coupons. What are they? What are they?

[Raina Greenberg]

Also, I say coupons. Rana says coupons.

[Ashley Hess]

Coupon sounds crazy.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, whatever. $4 off your next purch is just.

[Ashley Hess]

Just really attached. Wow.

[Raina Greenberg]

$2 off any makeup or nail product. Any.

[Ashley Hess]

Should I be saying these?

[Raina Greenberg]

$3 off any CVS Health first aid products or treatments. $2 off any cold, cough, flu, or immunity products. They know what's up. It's cold season. $4 off any CVS pain relief products. $3 off any CVS allergy remedies. But the $4 off. I mean, I'm thinking, hold on to

[Ashley Hess]

this, like, for nothing.

[Raina Greenberg]

Does it apply to your prescriptions? Because I just picked up my prescription. It was $5.

[Ashley Hess]

Restrictions might apply.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'll check cvs.comcouponpolicy for more details. But anyway, I just can't believe this.

[Ashley Hess]

I can't. No. There are just some things in the world I thought we had, like, effectively made fun of enough that we've stopped

[Raina Greenberg]

it that they would have stopped.

[Ashley Hess]

I can't believe it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, I was thinking, I used to do this joke. It was about this grower, like, a guy's dick. And I said it went from a fortune cookie fortune to a CVS receipt. And it was one of my favorite metaphors I've ever done. And for days, I couldn't recall fortune cookie fortune. I was like, what was the first part of it? And even just now, we just did Bitch Bible, and I referenced it, and I said, gum wrapper. And I was like, it's not. That's not right.

[Ashley Hess]

You said gum wrapper the other day, too. And I know gum wrapper is actually part of a different bit that you do. And I couldn't figure it out. I was trying to sneeze.

[Raina Greenberg]

It just wasn't right. So forged a cookie. Forged. I'm so glad I remembered it. And I remembered it in line at the cvs, and I was like, if they give me a giant receipt ran. I picked up a $5 prescription, and this is what they gave me. Like, you'd think I would've done a haul for them to give me this. Like, the receipt should match the purchase.

[Ashley Hess]

They're so generous, though. They're like, here's 19 different coupons.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, like, I spent $5. They were like, take 20 in coupons. That's.

[Ashley Hess]

Listen, now I feel like I should start saving those. What if you just open up my center console one day and it's just exploded with CVS coupons.

[Raina Greenberg]

Did you go grocery shop with your mom? Would she, like, use coupons?

[Ashley Hess]

I think so. I do think my mom used coupons.

[Raina Greenberg]

Most moms in our, like, clip them.

[Ashley Hess]

I do the clip them from, like, clips. Yeah, I'm pretty sure my mom did. Now, I mean, is that, like, when you go to the grocery store now and they're like, do you have your Ralph's card? Or whatever, and that runs a search of every single one? Is that what that does?

[Raina Greenberg]

I have no idea how it works these days. I do have a Pavilions app.

[Ashley Hess]

I only shop at Erewhon. And I promise you there is no coupons for error.

[Raina Greenberg]

But you get money back.

[Ashley Hess]

I pay them extra for that. You get money back for that privilege. I give them, like, $150 for a membership, and they give me back $50.

[Raina Greenberg]

Membership is crazy. Okay, well, anyway, let's talk about our partners. That aren't cvs.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. Thanks to the opposite of that. Thanks to Vivrel. Skip the waitlist and get your first month for free at vivrel.com with code GGE AN ARTICLE. Head to article.com for a beautiful new sofa, dining table or bed and thank

[Raina Greenberg]

you to Liquid IV. Get 20% off your first order at Liquid IV.com with code GGE and Revolve. Get 15% off your first order at Revolve.com GGE with code GGE and and hers get the support that actually reflects your needs. Start your free [e-mail] and we mentioned this last week, but just wanted to remind you guys, we are doing one show this year as far as we know. No, we'll talk about the Hollies, but as far as all we have in the schedule, one show that Rayna and I are both doing, Girls Gotta Eat show is going to be May 7th here in LA for the Netflix is a joke festival and we are so excited to be a part of it and we can't wait to see you guys. The Palace Theater. It's gorgeous. The show is going to be so much fun. Special, special guests. Everyone's in town for this festival and so you guys can grab tickets. It's linked on our website. That's probably the easiest way. Girls gotta eat dot com. But if you want to go to netflixisajokefest.com you type in Girls Gotta Eat. It comes right up. Checked it today. So grab those tickets while they're still available and we'll see you there.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, make a trip out of it. It is a really fun time to be in la. May is beautiful in la. There's tons of acts that week as well, so grab tickets to ours and then just book out your whole weekend. It'd be really fun. Yeah, we'll see you guys then. Yeah, so we didn't. We did an episode last week. We were asking people about like friends dilemmas and we got this one that was just sort of outside of the box of anything else and had a few different themes. So yeah, we thought we would like dive into this email and talk about it.

[Raina Greenberg]

You looked at me like you're obviously going to read it.

[Ashley Hess]

I was like actually even started reading it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, guys, let me dive in. Hi, ladies. I'm an avid listener of the pod and have listened every week since 2018. That is just. That's so. It really makes me. Yeah, it's such an honor. A friendship dilemma I'm currently experiencing is one of my friends has been Dating her man for almost three years. After one year of them dating, we got drunk in a hot tub together. Just us two. You got it feels like this is going somewhere different. And she told me that she loved me, though she told me she didn't think he was her person. But when she's sober, she says things like, that's my boo. Love that man. And my soulmate. Fast forward to now. She talks about how she wants to get engaged to him this year, but yet again, a month ago we got drunk and she was telling me that she's jealous that I'm single, she misses her ho phase, she has a crush on her coworker, her boyfriend has never made her come, she thinks her boyfriend isn't attracted to her and she wishes she could experience things with women. But then she's sober at brunch two weeks ago, telling the girls she thinks she'll get engaged in the coming months. I have this moral dilemma in my brain thinking, should I have a sit down with her and be like. You say one thing when you're sober, but when you're drunk you say the opposite? Or should I leave it be because it's not my relationship and I don't know what truly happens behind closed doors. Part of me wonders if she thinks she's in too deep and doesn't want to start over. It's hard knowing she's telling two different stories and I think I'm the only one who knows both sides. I just don't want her to end up in a marriage that isn't fulfilling. Appreciate the advice.

[Ashley Hess]

So we're going to give advice to the friend who wrote in, the friend with the guy. And the email subject line was, are drunk thoughts sober feelings? So we'll also answer that question. Yeah, I think to the friend who wrote in, I think, of course you care about your friend's happiness. That's where this comes from is you're just like, I know she's going to maybe make a mistake and go down this road and I love her and I don't want to see her in pain. And if I have some advice I can offer, then that's great and I think that you're entitled to have that conversation one time in a non accusatory way. You're not the relationship police, you know, you don't have to keep holding your feet to the fire. I think it's really fair to say kindly like, I love you. You said a couple things. They're concerning. I want you to know you can talk to me about this stuff, if you're having doubts, everybody has doubts, you know, and feel free to talk to me about it. And I would have that conversation once, and I wouldn't. I wouldn't press it again.

[Raina Greenberg]

What do you think? I like this email. It doesn't make me feel bad on the inside because it's not that this man is treating her poorly. Well, she says she doesn't think he's attracted to her. But, you know, a lot of times we have situations where a friend is telling another friend how shitty this guy is, and then you're judging him, and it's really hard because you want to say, like, leave him. He sucks. And then they stay with them, and you feel like it has caused tension or a rift in your friendship. And that's not really what we're doing here. The friend is telling her stuff, how she feels with the exclusion of she thinks her boyfriend isn't attracted to her. But this is so easy to me, to speak to her completely out of love and be like, you know, I support your relationship. I always have. It doesn't sound bad. I don't think there's any really red flags. It doesn't sound like this is some shitty guy. So I think it's so easy. Like, you know, I support your relationship. I want you to get engaged this year. I want whatever you want for you. But you are telling me these things, and I'm so glad that you feel comfortable confiding in me. But I just want you to know that if you are feeling any type of way that he isn't the one, you don't have to marry him. If you think you want to explore with women, you can explore with women. And your partner should make you come. You should want that. And I just want you to know I'm here for you. And sometimes people need that permission and they need someone to say, you don't have to marry this person. You don't have to stay with this person. The things that she said all fall into, like, different buckets for me. Like, being drunk and saying you miss your hoe phase is not that much of a tell for me. Yes. And you're jealous. You're single. Sometimes just you be saying stuff. Sometimes it sounds good in the moment. Oh, my God, I'm so jealous you're single. I miss my hoe phase. Like, I get that. You know, I forget I'm married all the time.

[Ashley Hess]

I think that that exists for everybody, right? Everybody that's thinking I'm gonna end up with somebody for a long time is A little jealous of the silly stories and also happy they don't have to deal with them anymore. You know, both things can exist.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, but crush on the coworker again. You could be a horny drunk. And you could also kind of like women when, when you're drunk. I mean, there are people who are pretty straight and get attracted to women, maybe kiss here and there, do some things when they're drunk. Alcohol really loosens you up. And I just, I don't think that necessarily means that you're bi or you're gay. It definitely could. But the things that are really coming up for me are he's never made her come, and she thinks her boyfriend isn't attracted to her. That's not stuff you say drunk. That's true. Where would it come from otherwise? Like, you're not saying that to be spicy or funny. Like saying you don't think your partner is attracted to you when you're drinking is true, I think. Why else would you say it? There's no other reason. And you wouldn't tell your friend he's never made you come. Like, that's a real confession.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. And I think that an engagement ring is not going to put a band aid over bad sex or feeling undesired. And for me, for most people, I think that engagement ring actually amplifies those feelings of like, is this it? Forever? Am I gonna commit to somebody that I don't feel like desires me? That is not great in bed. I'm finding myself with this wandering eye, looking at other people like. And I think sometimes you do need another person to say to you, like, you don't have to do this. And also to your point earlier, like, I try to say to all my girlfriends when they're venting me about their partners, you know, I love him and you know, you know I'm on your side. And I'm not gonna hate him if you tell me this stuff. Because I feel like our girlfriends share a lot of stuff with us. I don't want my friends to ever feel like I'm gonna judge their partner and they can't talk to me about it. I mean, some, some of my friends, partners, I judge, but for the most part, I'm friends with most of my friends, partners. And I'm. I'm not gonna hate them because they say this stuff to me.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. Again, if it was really bad stuff about this guy, that's one thing. But if the friend that wrote in actually does like him, I assume she knows him. They've been together three years and they're close friends. And you can say, like, you know, I'll stand up there with you at your wedding. I'll support you. He's great, but, you know, keep these things in mind. And I'm like a listening ear. And I don't know how old they are, but you can find someone else that will give you these things. And you can explore the feelings that you're having and say it once, like Raina said. And you don't have to keep pushing her on it. And she could say, like, oh, you know, I just get drunk and say stuff. And she could marry him and she'll have to find out for herself if there was, like, abuse and, you know, manipulation, even gaslighting type of stuff. We're talking about a different story. But if it's just these things, like, she has to make her own mistakes.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. I think she said earlier on that, like, a year in, that girl said, I don't know if that's my person. And I think we all have those thoughts.

[Raina Greenberg]

Maybe not you, but I think that

[Ashley Hess]

the average person is constantly evaluating. Is this my person? Is there more? Is this all there is? This is the best. Like, I think most people ask themselves those questions a year in. If you're engaged and you're asking that, I don't know if that's the same thing, but one year in, lots of people ask.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, we had, we knew friends like that, where one friend had confessed to another friend early on. I don't think this is my guy. And now they are engaged. And I think she feels embarrassed. But you don't have to be embarrassed. Like, we're all human. And I just think the way you approach the conversation with your friend, which we do really think is a conversation you should have, you really have to make sure it does not come across. Blaming, accusatory. The language of. You say one thing when you're sober. When you're drunk, you say the opposite. She said that to us. I don't think that's the language you should use with your friend. That sounds a little accusatory, like, really gentle. Really don't embarrass her. You do want to be her confidant, and she might be embarrassed. I mean, I don't know how much she's drinking. I don't know if these are blackout confessions or it's just she's a little loosey goosey. But I don't even know if you need to bring up the hot tub night. Like, that was years ago. And don't put her on blast. And like you said, this wasn't your person. It's kind of the other stuff of like, I want you to be happy in your relationship. I want you to love your partner. I want you to be coming all the things I want you to be satisfied. We all deserve that. And you do too.

[Ashley Hess]

I agree. And the girl that's getting engaged, I mean, I think it's normal to mourn your singledom a little bit. And there's sacrifices to commitment. Yes, you. I guess depending on the dynamic of your relationship, you can't go be a little slut all the time and be hooking up with coworkers. And you will negotiate what the parameters are with your partner. If you want to explore sexuality outside the relationship, obviously. But yeah, there's, there's trade offs. And so you should feel like, okay, I do have to mourn my single them. But should you have to mourn being with somebody, like, who doesn't desire you, who doesn't make you feel sexually satisfied? Only you can decide if that's enough for you.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. All the things that she's saying when she's drunk, if there is truth to them, do not marry this man. Don't do that to him and don't do that to yourself. The only way I can see is if she's like, I just like want attention when I'm drunk. I'd just be saying stuff. I guess there was a world in which you're like, I don't know, it's just like sounding good in the moment, I guess. I don't really think, I think that all those statements, there's like six separate things that all together are like, that's not your person.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm with you. Okay. And then to answer the question, are drunk thoughts sober feelings? I don't think always. I think alcohol lowers inhibition and amplifies emotion. Emotion. So yeah, like I think of decisions that I thought were like really fun or funny when I was drinking and I wake up in the morning and I'm like, I don't know who was gonna make those decisions. And I'm always proud that I didn't because I need way more attention when I'm drinking than I do as a sober person. I'm overly confident. Well, I'm overly confident always. But I. Things seem silly and I'm not evaluating consequences from like a normal ground level when I'm drinking. So I don't know, they might be some sober ideas that I just would never act on because that's not really who I am at My core, I

[Raina Greenberg]

have never loved this phrase as someone who did stuff she really regretted drinking. Like, think of all the things you've done. I mean, for me, you know, like breaking the law, you know, sleeping with somebody you would never sleep with.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, like waking up in the

[Raina Greenberg]

morning and seeing the fucking ugliest dude you've ever seen. You run out of his house in his Halloween costume. Speaking from experience. So you definitely. Whatever it does. I mean, some people turn to a different person. I mean, people are scared of people when they start drinking who are fine sober. You know, like, it really does change who you are. And a lot of times that means you shouldn't drink. So I don't always think that. And I think that it can. I think that you have something on your mind and alcohol loosens up, like you said, your inhibitions. And you do be saying stuff like 100%. But it really is case by case because I think more often than not we hear of guys drinking and love bombing and saying stuff that just feels good in the moment that they really don't feel. And you were recently with some people at a comedy show, some guys who were saying, I love to love bomb. Like, I get off on it. Like, not all guys, of course, but some dudes get drunk and love bomb for sport. And that is not their feelings.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I mean, even Harry Jowsey, when he was on the show, was talking about that. It just feels nice. Say a bunch of nice things to another person and make them feel really good. And you wake up and you're like, oh, these actions have consequences. I don't want to deal with that.

[Raina Greenberg]

I actually think the phrase in general, drunk thoughts or sober feelings. I think that's bad advice because I think that's what it does is someone confesses their feelings for you when they're drinking and you've been told that bad advice. And you're like, he must love me. And I just don't really subscribe to it. I think there are situations for sure where if we're talking about a wholesome situation, your two friends have a thing for each other, you get drunk and it comes out. It's very cute. And those. That's what I'm talking about. Things that you're holding back on and you start drinking and they come out. But the other stuff is just purely the alcohol talking.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, my drunk thoughts are my sober feelings. I haven't edited from like a clear point of view of consequences and like self respect and different things that I would evaluate and put into a situation. Yeah, Lots of things sound fun. Do you know how many times when I'm drinking, I want to choose violence and fire off something mean or fire off something sexy or be silly or forgive somebody. That's not who I am.

[Raina Greenberg]

But I've been in situations with guys where I was probably the love bomber, where I was hammered and saying stuff in an intimate situation and waking up and be like, I never want to see you again.

[Ashley Hess]

100.

[Raina Greenberg]

So it really is case by case and it just depends on what we're talking about here.

[Ashley Hess]

It's so funny. Like, when you're drunk, you're like, I will go home with this person. And those are not my sober feelings.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, my God.

[Ashley Hess]

My sober feelings are, please don't ever come near me again.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm glad we discussed it. I do think it's like one of those age old sayings that got taken too far.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. Drunk me isn't like fact checking. I'm just saying stuff, you know, I just. Because it feels good or silly in the moment. I do a lot of stuff I have stuck.

[Raina Greenberg]

All right. Just to stop Deadpool. Like, I don't even know. I usually know what you're about to say. I couldn't dare to guess.

[Ashley Hess]

I've done all kinds of things when I was drinking that I do not like when I'm sober.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Like butt plugs.

[Raina Greenberg]

Use butt plugs.

[Ashley Hess]

Use butt plugs. Come see me on tour.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. Well, I hope we have offered some clarity and advice to this woman that wrote in.

[Ashley Hess]

I do want to validate it. It's tough to hear your friend constantly talk about not being sure about their partner. And does she say she's single?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, she's jealous I'm single.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. Yeah, I know that. It's like, hard to be like, I would love to find a partner and you're getting drunk and you're telling me all these things. You won't do anything about it to fix it. And that is hard. Especially when you love somebody, you don't want to see them in pain. And if they're sober and they're like, ha, ha, I'm so great. Everything's great. We're great.

[Raina Greenberg]

There is also a world in which she is gay. And all this points to that. Sure. Because it would make sense.

[Ashley Hess]

Sure.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know, and like, as a co worker, a woman, all these things add up. And at the end, I'm also interested in exploring things with women. Maybe that's why your partner can't make you come. Maybe that's not his issue. That's because you are not attracted to men. Like, I don't know. I mean, I hear these things, and I am just a record. Screech. Get out of this relationship.

[Ashley Hess]

I know. I was trying to see how old they were.

[Raina Greenberg]

I know it didn't say, like, are we in our 20s and you're just feeling like you're supposed to get married? Like, I need to know so much more information about the girl with the boyfriend. Like, her parents, her age, her where she grew up. Is this societal and family pressure?

[Ashley Hess]

I just thought when I was getting engaged, I thought, like, all these feelings of doubt, all these voices in my head will be quieted by the ring, knowing that I have, like, commitment and a future with this person, and this will be the father of my children, and I will have stability, and I will build a life with this person. I just thought, like, these other feelings will go away because I get to have these other things. And every one of those feelings became 100 times louder thinking about being with this person for the rest of my life.

[Raina Greenberg]

But do you see a world in which, when you were with your fiance, which I do believe, even though he ended it, on some level, you knew it wasn't right. Like, could you have been this girl? Like, could you. And you were into some of your friends? Could you picture yourself in the hot tub saying this stuff drunk? I can a little bit.

[Ashley Hess]

I did stuff behind his back. That does not align with a person that is super. Sure.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. Like, I do think, like, I could put you in this situation. I could put you in this. Like, you're drunk, and you're like, I kind of have a crush on so and so from work. And, like, I don't know, I find that girl attractive. Like, I could see this being you. And, like, would you have wanted someone to say these things? Would it have mattered, though?

[Ashley Hess]

So when we broke up, I remember saying to, like, my mom and my best friends, like, Melanie, like, why didn't anybody ever say to me, you don't have to do this. But first of all, I don't think I really voiced this to anybody because I didn't want to embarrass him, because he was a good person. And everybody in my life was like, well, he wasn't abusing you emotionally or physically. He wasn't cheating on you. He wasn't lying to you. He wasn't a bad partner by most measures of being a bad partner. And so what were people gonna do? I was like, why didn't anybody say this to me? But people are just gonna insult me. You know, so nobody told me. But I was also too scared to vocalize this in a real way that, like, I remember, like, one time we had this, like, horrible fight. I was hysterical on the phone with my mom, and I was like, he's so stupid. And I just. I can't trust him to take care of anything. He forgot shoes. We went on a trip. He forgot shoes. We booked a hotel. I let him book the hotel. He had booked it somewhere really far on the outskirts of where I thought we were going to be at. Just was, like, so upset, and I was just like, is this it? This person who can't do anything or handle anything.

[Raina Greenberg]

Would your mom say to that? Do you remember? Because it seems to me like she would have been like, don't you don't do this. Because your mom always said, you don't need a man.

[Ashley Hess]

We were not engaged yet. It was like, a month before.

[Raina Greenberg]

And maybe she was like, he's in his 20s. What do you expect?

[Ashley Hess]

I think she was just like, honey, I think you're being a little hard on him. I think this is, like, a little unfair. She's never applied that kindness to me. But.

[Raina Greenberg]

All right, well, anyway, we got to get going, so.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Again, thank you guys, as always, for sharing your lives and your stories with us. And we are really excited about our episode today. Liz Plank is someone I've followed. I just really look up to her and think she's incredible. And so we're so excited to get into that with her. But we are just going to talk about our partners, so. This show is sponsored by Liquid iv. I got my new stash last night. We are such fans of Liquid IV and how it hydrates you better than water alone for longer. So you may be dehydrated if you have fatigue, brain fog, nausea, headaches, irritability, yellow pee, of course, and feeling thirsty when I'm dehydrated. I remember one time, the first time I was like. Felt so awful, and it wasn't a hangover in my 20s, and I realized I was dehydrated. And, like, it ruined a weekend for me. Like, I think I went into some girls trip and I just hadn't been drinking enough water. And I remember feeling that, like, headache. So tired. The fatigue you could almost feel just, like, sad. Like you're like, what is wrong with me? Something's really off. And so it can be dehydration. Those are the seven possible signs. So Liquid IV is a great place to turn. It's scientifically formulated to help replenish electrolytes and fluids lost from sweat or exercise. Three times the electrolytes of leading sports drink, eight vitamins and nutrients all in a single stick. And we have always loved it. We've been drinking it for years. We put it in all of our gift bags when we do suffer. Reina's 40th birthday, my wedding, we're always giving out liquid IV. You guys know it was in my wedding gift bags. And my favorite flavors are the lemon, lime, the guava and the grapefruit pina colada. They sent some of that last night. And then there are the sugar free flavors as well. So Liquid IV has led a significant breakthrough in sugar free hydration science. So there's zero sugar, three times electrolytes again and eight essential vitamins for sugar free hydration. We got the sugar free raspberry lemonade that came in our shipment last night and I'm really excited to have that as well. So we just love this. It helps you recharge your social batter if you're out a lot, keeps you hydrated and staying away from those seven signs of dehydration so you can show up start to finish with hydration from Liquid iv. Hydration multiplier. Sugar free, tear poor, live more. Go to liquidiv.com and get 20 off your first order with code GG at checkout. That's 20 off your first order with code [e-mail] okay.

[Ashley Hess]

And you guys know I'm obsessed with home decor, decorating my house, telling other people how to decorate their houses. Article makes it effortless to create a stylish, long lasting home at an unbeatable price. So it's one of the questions I get the most. Where is the stuff in your home from and how did you curate it? I love article. They have a huge range of styles. I really sort of lean more to coastal or sort of like a boho look. But they have mid century modern scandi inspired pieces that look really beautiful together. It helps your space look really cohesive and stylish. And if you're not really sure how to curate a room, whether it's your bedroom, your dining room, your living room, their website is phenomenal. You can can see how other people have put together rooms also their social media is great and the quality is fantastic. They curate these collections focusing on high quality and meaningful pieces. And then when you get it, the packaging is so meticulous. Like the weight and feel of the product is great. It just feels really high quality. And then the shipping and assembly so, so easy every time They've delivered anything to me. The shipping has been like easy to follow along. You pick the dates you want. So I am probably moving and I'm thinking about what I want to do with my new apartment in New York and I am thinking about more colors. So I love the different stuff they have. They have sofas that are linen, they have velvet, they have leather. I love this timber 90 inch leather sofa and they have tons of different colors and you can just trust that the quality is going to be great. Anything you get there, they have great support. The team is available seven days a week and they have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. So you can shop with confidence knowing if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you could easily return it. So if you are in the market for a beautiful new sofa, dining table or bed, head over to article.com okay.

[Liz Plank]

Revolve.

[Raina Greenberg]

My pants are from Revolve.

[Ashley Hess]

My pants are from Revolve.

[Raina Greenberg]

My pants are from Revolve. My these are super down. I met you this morning, you were like, are those super down from Revolve? And that is one of their Haus brands which I love. Really incredible prices and really quality, stylish stuff. So as I go to Singapore, I think every outfit I'm wearing is from Revolve. I've been shopping for months with this in mind because it's so hot. Like next level hot, where it's really vacation type wear.

[Ashley Hess]

That's my favorite thing about the Raw website. Yeah, listen, you can buy clothes lots of places, but on Revolve, not only do they have like every single brand, but they have these different shops. So if you want the vacation shop, you have festival wear shop. They have all of these curated collections and it helps me narrow it down because otherwise I go to these websites sometimes and I'm like, how do I narrow this down? So I love that they do that.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes. So I just got a lot of sets. I mean I want like flowy stuff. I want some strapless tops and dresses. I just want to look very chic but want to stay as cool as I can. I'm really stressed about the heat, but it's fine. We're going to do it. So Revolve is just where we get most of our clothes. 1200 plus brands, 100,000 styles across fashion, beauty and home. So there's everything on there. I mean you can get your shoes and accessories, you can get your bags and again like beauty and stuff for your home too. Everything from high end to emerging exclusive labels. So they have Amanda uprich or Norma Kamali super down these pants More to come Free people, lovers and friends. That's a great brand that I love too and you can just really trust like while it's a ton of stuff I feel like I can trust all of it and that they have curated only great brands great styles.

[Ashley Hess]

My jeans are citizens of humanity. People ask me constantly and this watch is C N D R E. I don't know Sandra but it's this like

[Raina Greenberg]

silver wash. Yeah, it's so cute. And we just love their customer service. Truly second to none. The two day shipping returns are so easy. They really put the customer first which is so important. I've had some nightmare situations with brands like whatever so they're the best inclusive sizing options from extra extra small to 4x personalized product recommendations. Let's you find something in Resolve and it's sold out in your size or whatever. Everything under it is just like it like the product recommendations. That's where I find I'll go find a top or something I bought and then just that I already own hundreds more items. Yes. Like I've been wearing a lot of lace like the red lace shirt I wore to in San Diego when we both have this black lace shirt that we love so much. So we just are obsessed. We can't talk about enough. We really hope you guys want to get on it and they don't do this a lot but they have a code for us and it is short lived. So get on it. Whether it's a weekend away, a big night out or just a much needed wardrobe refresh your dream wardrobe is just one click away. Head to Revolve.com GGE shop our edit and take 15% off your first order with code GGE or fast two day shipping easy returns. It's literally the only place you need to shop from truly. That's Revolve.com GGE to shop our favorites and get 15% off your first order with code GGE. The offer ends April 16th. Hopefully you guys are listening to this before that but just keep the date in mind. So until April 16th, happy shopping. And now we will get into it with our guest.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay guys, we are very excited to welcome our guest today. She is an award winning journalist, a filmmaker and producer of several critically acclaimed digital series at Fox Media and NBC News. She hosts the Boy Problems podcast and is the best selling author of the book for the Love of Men A vision of Mindful Masculinity. She has a Master's in Gender study and a PhD in dating please welcome to the show Dr. Liz. Dr. Liz play. Thank you.

[Liz Plank]

Thank you. That's my preferred title. I'm like so comfortable. I'm like. I'm already like.

[Ashley Hess]

I love your fit. This la cerulean blue.

[Liz Plank]

It's kind of cold today. I'm wearing like a. I feel like I'm East Coasty right now, but I'm toasty.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's like a crisp fall day. We're not equipped for this.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes, I have a fuzzy jacket. I wore a coat to work today.

[Raina Greenberg]

You like Liz or.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, sure.

[Raina Greenberg]

Does anyone call you Elizabeth?

[Liz Plank]

Oh, well, people back home. Because I'm Canadian and actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. It's a good time to. To not. Yeah, to have a backup plan. No, people back home call me because I'm French Canadian. So El was like my name there. And then now when I move to the States, it became Liz.

[Ashley Hess]

That's cute. I like Libby also.

[Liz Plank]

Oh, you should call me Libby.

[Ashley Hess]

Sure.

[Raina Greenberg]

Great. Should we read Libby? Elizabeth is Libby is Elizabeth. Yeah. I had no idea.

[Liz Plank]

I've never heard that, but I love it.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, well, this is based on knowing one girl named Libby and her name was Elizabeth. So I don't know if this is for everybody.

[Liz Plank]

Let's do Libby.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's one of those, like, where did Bob come from? Robert, who decided that there's other weird men Ones from Richard.

[Ashley Hess]

Dick is crazy. But like Rob and Bob, like there's not even the same letters.

[Liz Plank]

Rob and Bob is weird.

[Ashley Hess]

They were like. It rhymes. Just call it that.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, Bob is. Do you know any young guys named.

[Raina Greenberg]

I dated a Bob and he would not let me change his name. First orgasm I ever had and I

[Liz Plank]

was the worst orgasm.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, first.

[Liz Plank]

Oh, I thought the worst orgasm. I'm like, oh my God.

[Raina Greenberg]

I would be like, what about Bobby? I like Bobby.

[Ashley Hess]

No, Bobby's great. And also I dated a couple. I did get him Robert and everybody called him Bob. Just like, just like with him. And he hated it.

[Raina Greenberg]

He would not let me. I was like, anything else, he.

[Liz Plank]

Anything else.

[Raina Greenberg]

There's so many options. Rob, Robert, Bobby. He wanted Bob.

[Ashley Hess]

Rob.

[Raina Greenberg]

We were 19.

[Ashley Hess]

I'll take Robbie over Bob.

[Liz Plank]

Meeting a 19. Or like meeting a 5 year old named Bob.

[Ashley Hess]

Like what? Like. Cheering.

[Liz Plank]

Okay, if you're named Bob, like, we love you, but I just.

[Raina Greenberg]

We don't want to offend the Bob community.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, but maybe it's like. It's like, you know how like all the young people have weird names out?

[Ashley Hess]

Like Bob?

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, like Bob or like Gertrude or

[Raina Greenberg]

like, you know, like old School something.

[Ashley Hess]

Charlotte's the number one name in the country. Is my grandma's name.

[Liz Plank]

Is it?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, it's the number one girl name in the country.

[Liz Plank]

Wow.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, but there was these nature names. Remember we talked about names that were like, wisp, stuff like that.

[Liz Plank]

Arrow. Oatmeal. Like, I feel like there's, like, weird ones.

[Ashley Hess]

Bob is similar to Oatmeal.

[Liz Plank]

Same Bob similar to oatmeal.

[Ashley Hess]

Wait, Liz. Okay, so you have

[Raina Greenberg]

my grandfather's oatmeal.

[Ashley Hess]

Oatmeal.

[Liz Plank]

Okay. If you've ever matched with a guy named Oatmeal, sound off in the.

[Ashley Hess]

I feel like that's. Guys in la, they're all giving that their name is Oatmeal. That's why I can't date here.

[Raina Greenberg]

They're life coaches. They do breath work.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Do what's.

[Liz Plank]

But they don't go to therapy. What's your read on guys in la?

[Ashley Hess]

They are all hyper obsessed with wellness culture, and they are the most toxic men you can meet in this country. Every single one of them is like, I love journaling. I'm a mindfulness coach and I will ruin your life. Oh, also, we are so sorry if you date. And also, we're broke. Like, oh, yeah. At least in New York they are kind of like that. But they do have money.

[Liz Plank]

Money.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. They're just cagey about their jobs. Like, what do you do again? Like, and we were just talking about this, like, it is a little bit of an ick for a guy to want to live here. It's a girl city.

[Ashley Hess]

It's a girl.

[Liz Plank]

It's for the girls.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's for the girls.

[Ashley Hess]

You can live here.

[Liz Plank]

If a girl brought you here.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know, I brought my husband here. You're here.

[Ashley Hess]

That's so true. Like, to independently wake up one day and be like, as a man, I'd like to. Or like, to Los Angeles. If you're not a director.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

If you're my.

[Raina Greenberg]

Because if you're an actor, also. Nick.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

But, you know, agent.

[Ashley Hess]

Sorry, Agent hot. Entertainment lawyer. Hot.

[Liz Plank]

Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

Nice. Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

Director. You can't trust it because every man I go on a date with tells you they're a director. They're not.

[Liz Plank]

They're not.

[Ashley Hess]

What did you direct?

[Liz Plank]

No.

[Ashley Hess]

And what's your IMDb?

[Liz Plank]

And they're like, I'm a creative director. I'm like, baby girl, have you ever.

[Raina Greenberg]

No. So you've dated a ton. Have you ever met a guy in LA that works in any financial industry? There are buildings here that have, like, names of banks. On them. But who works in them?

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, I don't know anyone.

[Raina Greenberg]

There's no LA finance guys, right?

[Liz Plank]

Where are the LA finance guys?

[Ashley Hess]

That doesn't exist here.

[Raina Greenberg]

But that's what we need. But they have like buildings. Like there's work.

[Liz Plank]

They have buildings. But where are the men? Where are the men? We got to fill those buildings. Yeah, it's like Ellie needs like a serious man job. Like, like industry.

[Ashley Hess]

So I had a contractor that like built my house. He was very sexy.

[Raina Greenberg]

Really?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. So there are those here.

[Liz Plank]

Wait, that's cool. What happened? What was the story behind that? Did you guys hook up or.

[Ashley Hess]

No, unfortunately we never hooked up. But I was so sad.

[Raina Greenberg]

You were. Guys were really edging each other.

[Ashley Hess]

It was kind of crazy when you said that.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, it was very yearning.

[Ashley Hess]

It was. Yeah, it was very withering heights. It was crazy.

[Liz Plank]

I love that.

[Ashley Hess]

I know.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, it was so hot.

[Ashley Hess]

Like every week we would be.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'd be like, what's the update on like the contract? He's in your home. What? Like they were like standing close in a doorway once I was like.

[Ashley Hess]

We were. We went to. We went plant shopping one day in the valley, just the two of us. We had like a little golf cart.

[Liz Plank]

We were like your husband and wife.

[Ashley Hess]

And then he was asking me like what my thoughts are about having kids and like, did I want to get

[Raina Greenberg]

married and we're all gonna live.

[Ashley Hess]

And like he had all these questions for me, like clearly asking me to be his wife. And then we went shopping for doors. He took me to a door factory.

[Liz Plank]

Hot.

[Ashley Hess]

I know.

[Liz Plank]

Hot.

[Raina Greenberg]

A man that cares about doors.

[Ashley Hess]

Like around. Did you learn about this in your

[Liz Plank]

gender studies about man and wood? No, I didn't. We didn't talk about men. That was why I wrote the book. So I was like, wait a minute.

[Ashley Hess]

Where did you go to college?

[Liz Plank]

I went to McGill cuz I'm from Montreal.

[Ashley Hess]

I. It was my dream to go to McGill. When I was like seven years old, I went to Montreal with my parents.

[Raina Greenberg]

This is so cute.

[Ashley Hess]

I went.

[Raina Greenberg]

I didn't know this.

[Ashley Hess]

The week after 9, 11. Just so crazy.

[Raina Greenberg]

But that's when you're visiting.

[Ashley Hess]

I was 16.

[Raina Greenberg]

I've been totally. Yeah, it was like my first week of college.

[Ashley Hess]

I went to Montreal. I was like, this is the. You could gamble there. Every other place there was like sex shops or every other place, but it's like a beautiful city and it's clean and it's great food. And I was like, I want to go to school here.

[Liz Plank]

It's the Best big deal was like the best years of my life. Like, I'm not going to lie. It was like. It was like everyone was hot and smart, you know, and. And I was in all the clubs. I was. Synchronized swimming club. I. I was in like four feminist clubs. I was in the men's club for feminists. It was like men. Like the White Ribbon Club. Like, men's. Men against violence against women's club. Like, I was the only girl. Like, I just joined everything and I.

[Ashley Hess]

And they were like, oh, girl.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah. No, they were the best men. I mean, it was like, yeah, I was in. I was in love with.

[Ashley Hess]

So I'm curious about gender studies. And you did not focus on. What did you. What did you focus on?

[Liz Plank]

Well, it's that. My experience of the program and just like, like women's studies and sort of gender studies, which I. I believe, again, I'm not in college right now. Sound off in the comments if you are a gender studies major and like, you are talking about masculinity, but.

[Ashley Hess]

Or if you think Liz is still in college or if what. I think Liz looks like she has.

[Raina Greenberg]

Sound off if you think I'm still in college.

[Ashley Hess]

No.

[Liz Plank]

You guys are. No, I still get carded. You know, it's a problem. Do you guys get carded?

[Ashley Hess]

No, Sometimes. But I think they're just being nice.

[Liz Plank]

They're being nice? Yeah, I'm just like, I'm almost 40. Like, stop. Anyway, sorry, I sign off. Yeah. Because I do think in gender studies now it's more holistic. And I think they do talk about masculinity. They do talk about just queer theory, you know, it's more expansive. But. But in my experience, you know, we, we had whatever, a 14 week, you know, course, and then there'd be like one week where you would be like, masculinity, you know, let's talk about men. And I was just really blown away by how little I had learned about how men benefit from feminism. You know, that we sort of learn that men are bad, you know, the bad things that they do and the ways that they stand in the way of our progress. But when I started researching for the book, I was like, wait a fucking minute, guys. In feminist, like the most feminist countries are the happiest. They are less likely to end up being divorced or die of a violent death. They're more likely to be healthy. They're more likely to have paid leave. Like, it's like healthcare. It's just great. It's great for women, but it's also great for Men.

[Raina Greenberg]

It makes sense.

[Liz Plank]

And I was like, where has been the PR for feminism? Like, around how great it is. It is for men. And then some people were like, why do you have to center men? And, like, why do men have to benefit from it? Okay, okay. But they do. You know, they do. We should definitely. Men should care about women, period. Because you came out of a woman and you're. You know, we live in the same fucking world. But, you know, it's also really good for you, even selfishly, to live in a. In a progressive feminist society.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, so you wrote this book called for the Love of Men, and you. I was. I read the book, but I also was, like, reading the comments about the book and the reviews about the book.

[Liz Plank]

I haven't read any of them. Are they bad?

[Ashley Hess]

They're really positive. And they say that this is really somebody who came at it from, like, not a male apologist point of view, but somebody who has, like, empathy for the male experience. And let's figure out how to fix this. And it wasn't all just like, I hate men. Cause listen, it is fun to say that, and it's fun to make fun of it, but, yeah, I just, I guess want to hear your point of view in writing the book and, like, what you. What you chose to focus on.

[Liz Plank]

I mean, look, I didn't start off being that empathetic, to be. To be honest, right. Because I have studied this, so I think about it all the time. I've.

[Ashley Hess]

I.

[Liz Plank]

And I think once you also sort of put those. Those. Those glasses on, right. It's really hard to sort of take them off. And that's with everything. Once you learn about, I don't know, the environment, right. And the things that we put in our foods, and, you know, people are like, oh, my God, I can't put. I can't even put red dye in my body.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right.

[Liz Plank]

It just sort of changes your perspective. So I definitely had that. But I also was like, why does every room that's trying to solve this issue only have women in them?

[Ashley Hess]

Right?

[Liz Plank]

Like, I was really perplexed by the lack of men who were interested in gender equality. And so I started talking to them about it, and I started realizing, like, I'm the first person to have even brought up gender with them. I'm the first person to ask them about their relationship to their masculinity or what it means to be a man. Like. Like, I would go up to guys like, in Washington Square park or, you know, because I love man on the streets, and I just love Like, I like things in the wild. You know, I love. I love it. So that kind of sort of like field research. It's not real research. It's. It's. You know, it's.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's.

[Liz Plank]

Don't. If there are people with PhDs are gonna be like, that's not it. But.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, I know what you mean.

[Liz Plank]

You know, men would be like, no one has ever asked me that. And I'd be like, wait a minute. Like, women, we just go to the bar and we're in the bathroom, and we're already going deep on what it means to be a girl. Right? And we talk about it all the time. We talk about it with our moms. We think about the difference between my mother's experience of girlhood and womanhood and mine and how different it is and how it's sometimes in conflict. I feel like women have so many sort of opportunities to talk about it. And I realized that men had never really had permission or sort of the curiosity even. Even to do it or the safety.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right.

[Liz Plank]

It was sort of like, not safe to do it if you're men, you know, can't talk about their feelings in the same way. It's. It's with. With other men. So. And. And then once I started talking about it with them, I realized, like, oh, my God, they're hurting us, but, like, they're hurting too. And. And then, you know, you read women like bell hooks and Angela Davis and, you know, feminist scholars have been saying this forever, which is like, men are the first victims of. Of patriarchy. They get. They get victimized, and then they victimize us. Yeah. It really changed my perspective to talk to men about. About masculinity. Yeah. That's how I got there. And then I got nicer because, you know, because you get closer.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know, you get.

[Ashley Hess]

I like this theory that, like, they are the first victims. I'm not a male apologist, but, like, men are the first people that are told, like, being feminine is gay. And it's not something to be in touch with, prioritize. Yes. It's to look down upon, to have feelings and express feelings. And, you know, if you're told from day one that that is bad and that girls do this, then you both. You're mad at yourself. You're mad at women that get to do this stuff. You devalue what women are like. I mean. Yeah, you're right. They're. They have not been raised to value

[Raina Greenberg]

these types of things.

[Liz Plank]

I mean, just think about, like, when someone's rude or when Someone's mean.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right.

[Liz Plank]

Like, or when you're rude and you're. When you're mean, it obviously hurts the person you're mean to or that you're rude to. But if you really think about it, like, you've hurt yourself.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Liz Plank]

Like, like you were, you know, whatever it is. Right. I think about when I'm. When I'm mean is when I'm like, self hating, when I'm mad at myself.

[Raina Greenberg]

When you're out of character, you're like, I'm in a bad. I'm in a bad place myself. Exactly.

[Liz Plank]

And I think that I had believed into the myth that, like, men enjoyed sexism and, like, men enjoyed patriarchy. And I still think that's sort of largely the belief. And I staunchly, like, disagree with that. And I, like some people, yeah, will say I'm too optimistic or I'm, like, naive. But I truly think at its core, patriarchy is really. And I, you know, did some research around men's health and relationships. You know, there's a. Just a direct correlation, you know, between. Yeah. Having a very constrained or patriarchal view of masculinity. So again, in layman terms, it's like, you know, thinking that a man has to win at all costs and that you have to dominate or you have to be aggressive. Like, that has direct links on men's health. And you see it, you know, they're more likely to have heart disease, they're more likely to die. I mean, it's really, it's not just, you know, oh, it's a bad feeling inside. It, like, it makes you live less long. Yeah, yeah, it just, it just blows my mind. I'm like, why don't guys.

[Raina Greenberg]

I know. And I mean, I feel like we're seeing more. I mean, we love what Scott Galloway is doing. And the GQ issue that was in November, I think the whole issue was on, like, modern masculine. They interviewed all these, these guys, like, from so many different areas. Like, Stavros was there, like, all these different types of, like, men and what masculinity was to them. And I really enjoyed it. I'm fascinated by it. And to your point, like, the, the men that really respect women and are in touch with their emotions and are communicative and stable and healthy are the happiest men I know. I mean, they're, they're men that I think of, like our brothers and my husband, like our friends, like the, the good ones that haven't bought into this patriarchy. And they really look up to women in leadership roles. And all the good things are happy. They're not the angry men running around ruining everything.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, totally. I mean, it's. It's just. Yeah. I think there's this belief that patriarchy is natural and that, you know, men just naturally want. I mean, all of the evolutionary theories that even violence against women is a normal, natural impulse that men have. And it's like, yeah, go to a prison and ask them, you know, the men who have committed those crimes, you know, is that natural? Is that. And very often, yeah, they have trauma.

[Ashley Hess]

They have.

[Liz Plank]

They've been raised in, you know, a certain box. And I really fundamentally, yeah. I believe in the. In the good of men. You know, I really think. And it gets me into trouble, for sure. You know, women. It's like, so a woman to be like, I can fix it.

[Raina Greenberg]

You.

[Liz Plank]

You know, I see your potential, but I really do, you know, and. And. And it makes me feel also it makes my life better, you know, to. To. Not because it was.

[Ashley Hess]

It's hard, but I live in both camps.

[Liz Plank]

I can.

[Ashley Hess]

I hate what a lot of men have done. I don't hate all men's point. Both of our brothers, Ashley's husband, with tons of men. Male friends that are wonderful husbands, wonderful partners. I hate what a lot of. A lot of violence is perpetrated by men. Shootings are perpetrated by men. This whole government is run by terrible men and a couple terrible women. But so much of the terribleness in the world is perpetrated by men. I hate those people.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

But I can meet a man and know he's different than. Different than other men. Yeah.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah. And that's what's so amazing. Right. Because then you get called a man hater, you know, and you're like, the fact that I still willfully go on dates with men, with strangers that we meet online.

[Ashley Hess]

We date our number one predator.

[Liz Plank]

Date our number one predator, and we. I don't know what your experience has been, but I'm sure, like, 100 of women have had, you know, some form of bad experience or multiple ones with men. Men are dangerous to us. And we still go. We still, you know, so I. You know, the pro. Yeah. When people are like, you're a man hater. I'm like, no. The problem is that's why I called the book for the Love of Men. You know, I really love men. That's kind of my problem. Like, that's. It would be easier if I didn't love them, actually. So. No, I think. I mean, and that's the part that I think is the patriarchy sort of robs us from just all of the love that we could have for each other. That, you know, if you think about, you know, nurture, nature, obviously, the fact that we're different, it's a million different factors, you know, and trying to nail it down to what percentage is nature, what percentage is nurture, is very difficult. But we are different. And when you think about it, like, we're the best team on earth, like, we have such complementary skills, and the patriarchy sort of robs us from that. Instead of being like, okay, you're good at this, I'm good at that. That makes us even better. Right. And I think that's in the best case. Those are the best marriages. But I think as a whole, you know, and I think about what's going on with the government, like, women were just artificially removed from all positions of power and government, politics, economic. I mean, we're look at any industry, and it's like, that doesn't fare well for women. That's obvious. It also doesn't fare well for men.

[Raina Greenberg]

I know, I know. It's a.

[Liz Plank]

Do you like this, this Epstein shit? Like, do you think guys are glad that that happened and that they participated in it? It's just, you need everybody. And when we remove women, it's just. It's a disservice to everybody.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

I have a question for you. And then we do want to talk about politics, because you two talk about

[Raina Greenberg]

it quite a bit.

[Ashley Hess]

You published this book in 2019. Now it's 2026. Obviously, if you rewrote this book today.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

What type of themes would you maybe change or focus on? Do you think things have gotten better or worse? I know that the administration has had a real effect on masculinity and what we tell young boys to grow up as. But do you have any thoughts about that?

[Liz Plank]

I don't know. You know, some days I really do wake up and I go, this is worse. Like, like, like on every possible sort of way that we can measure this, it's worse. And I even think about people like bell hooks who's a. She's passed, but she's a, you know, sort of the mother for me anyways, of just feminist theory. And I think about so many of the scholars that sort of, like, wrote about feminism in the 80s and 90s, and, you know, they continued to in the 2000s. I'm like, what would they think about what's going on? You know, I really do think we're Sort of. Everything is really heightened. It almost feels like we're in a. You know, people say this all the time. Like, the writers room is like. You know, if someone wrote what happened, you know, today in the White House, it wouldn't even get put in the show. Cause it's too unrealistic. Everything is really heightened right now, and patriarchy is really heightened. And I think that's actually a good thing. My take, again, overly optimistic maybe, but it makes me feel better. And I think I'm right. Is like, this is the last. Like the patriarchy's last tantrum. It is like the last gasp. Right? It's just. It's so over. It's.

[Ashley Hess]

It's.

[Liz Plank]

You know, I think a lot about, you know, addicts and sort of dysfunctional family systems. I mean, we're in a dysfunctional family system. Like, it is really bad, but you kind of need things to get really bad for it to get better.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's my take. I just want to survive it. And, like, I don't know. We're not the worst of it. Like, it's going to get so bad, and then it's gonna burn down and get rebuilt. But I just. I want to survive it, and I want my family and friends to survive it. And, like, I don't. You know, I just think that. I know that's what's happening, but there's so much collateral damage, and that's what's hard to stomach. It is.

[Liz Plank]

It is.

[Raina Greenberg]

But I'm with you.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah. You know, I think we're all. It's our first time doing this. I mean, and I think a lot about. You know, my parents, I guess, were activists in their own right. And so I. Sometimes I will talk. I'll be like, so what did you guys. You know, how did you. And they were like, this is crazy, girl. Like, I really do think we have to be really kind with ourselves. Like, this is not easy shit. And obviously every. You know, people will say, well, people kind of put us down for having feelings about, you know, the apocalypse. Like, living through, like, a real breakdown of just truth and reality and just all the things we thought we could depend on and think were true. I mean, that just puts such a stress on just your nervous system, like, if you think about it. So I did some behavioral science stuff while I was doing my master's. And so I think a lot of things through that prism, like, 97% of our behaviors are automatic. And we don't think that's what's happening. Right. But, like, only 3% are, like, conscious. Right. So most of your days, actually, you're not even. I know when you're driving or walking or even while you're talking, like, you're constantly. I mean, the brain is so evolved that it's. It's predicting what's going to happen all of the time, so that it's not draining to be alive. And if you think about what we're living through right now, everything that we think we can predict, like, you can totally. And it really does something to our nervous system. It does something to us as a collective. And so I'm just proud of everyone who's, like, alive and, like, surviving, getting through the day and loving their neighbor, doing kind things for people that aren't losing their shit. Even though you have every. You know, it's like the crash out is valid. You know, it's scary, but I think we should be really proud of ourselves for going through it and how we're. How we're carrying ourselves through it.

[Ashley Hess]

I think that's comforting. I mean, yeah, I feel like every minute I'm just like, what is the next bad thing that's gonna happen? And I think so many of our listeners wrote. And we'll talk about, like, boy problems too, but so many of our listeners just struggle all the time with, like, figuring out that their partner voted for this, that a parent voted for this, and saying, like, you literally, you're voting against my rights, your own best interest.

[Raina Greenberg]

You're voting against all of our best.

[Ashley Hess]

You voted against somebody who is proven to be a criminal and sexually assaulted people and has said terrible things about every minority, women. And you're like, you've. You voted for this and thought that this was a good idea for the president. The highest, the highest position in the country.

[Liz Plank]

Twice.

[Raina Greenberg]

Three times.

[Liz Plank]

People.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, I, I kind of was surprised by how many people said, I'm still struggling with, like, my partner because I didn't know. We didn't. We didn't break up with people.

[Liz Plank]

But this is an ongoing, pervasive issue still coming up.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, it's getting worse. I think even like a year and a half ago, some people were still able to be like, okay, I can deal with the fact that they voted for this. And I don't. I don't know anybody that can deal with it anymore.

[Liz Plank]

It takes. But again, it takes so much strength. And anyone who's in that situation, you know, I just really, like, I feel for you. And, you know, I think back at. Yeah, I don't know, like, in the 2010s I think about the 2010s a lot, you know, because I feel like

[Raina Greenberg]

nostalgia is a disease.

[Liz Plank]

No, it's. I feel like it's the 1950s. Am I. It's just like, let's go back. I mean, not that the 1950s were perfect at all, but it feels like that, you know, when you look at. You look back and you're like. It feels so different. And it was only 10 years ago, you know, or less in some.

[Raina Greenberg]

I can't really even. Even watching America's Next Top Model. Like, there's this. There's bad stuff happening. We've come so far. The documentary. But I'm like, It brings me back to 03. Like, I'm just like, I yearn for the 90s and the or 2000s.

[Ashley Hess]

I yearn for the last time I thought things were bad. Well, that's the thing, you know, and

[Liz Plank]

even back then, it was like, oh, he voted for Mitt Romney. Or, you know, and it's like, George

[Ashley Hess]

Bush is so bad. I miss those days.

[Liz Plank]

It's so funny. I saw this perfect thread. It was like, stop baby girling George Bush. You know, like, they like, we're so. We're so deprived of. Of any kind of morality and clarity in our government that we're like war criminal.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, I miss. I Ms. Trump 1.0. I Ms. Kellyanne Conway.

[Liz Plank]

Kelly.

[Ashley Hess]

I miss Kellyanne Conway.

[Raina Greenberg]

All the press secretaries. Do you remember that whole run?

[Ashley Hess]

Every single frame.

[Liz Plank]

Scaramucci. I mean, Scaramucci is like a resistance fighter now.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know, Sean Spicer.

[Liz Plank]

Spice.

[Raina Greenberg]

Dancing with the Stars. Like, there was people surrounding we.

[Ashley Hess]

It was so funny back then. We could joke.

[Liz Plank]

We could joke. I mean, it was serious, but it was like, it felt like, whoops.

[Raina Greenberg]

There was a whoop with conscience around.

[Liz Plank]

Like, there were.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes.

[Liz Plank]

There were normal people around him and now there's.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

Wacko.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes. So I just feel like we are fully in the. This could never happen in America part of America. So that's really scary. But people are. There's 80,000 people in, like, warehouses. Like, what are we? What the. That's hard to even comprehend. Don't even start in the episode files. But, I mean, we don't need to go down this road. But, like, you know, I was watching you. I follow you. I think you were like, going to the Grammys and you were like, I'm also crashing out. Like, like, how do you reconcile the two? Because this is my daily struggle. Because I do want to.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

I can't be in a deep, dark hole all day.

[Liz Plank]

You Can't. And also that's like letting them win, you know?

[Raina Greenberg]

Exactly.

[Liz Plank]

It's like. Well, I think about it.

[Raina Greenberg]

You look at it.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah. Oh, totally. And I really try not to be that like annoying white woman liberal. Like that's just like, like you know, just doom scrolling in bed drinking rose, you know, and just being of no help, by the way. Like me being sad and doom scrolling, like it's not helping anybody.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right.

[Liz Plank]

And so, no, I think you. Look, I've been thinking a lot about this. Anytime that I'm like in that doom and gloom, like me and my friends were like, we call it like you have a telenova in your head. You're like, oh my God. And it's true, it's true. They're literally putting people in warehouses. Like, like, we are in the bad place. But anytime that I'm just like, oh my God, I'm like, be of service, be of service. What's something I can do? And there is so much that you can do. And I swear to God, not only does it actually help, it does. There's nothing too big or I think sometimes we feel like, well, I got to do this big. No, literally do something nice for your neighbor. Like, it does help. We can fight this if we're, if we're not fighting each other, you know, do something for someone. And I think because of the phones, because of.

[Ashley Hess]

There's so.

[Liz Plank]

There's such an amalgamation of factors that like brought us to where we are again, that like, again, I'm proud of anybody who gets out of bed and like gets through the day. But I think the phones and being at home alone, like, go out and do something. You know, go volunteer, go bring some. Ask your neighbor if they need help with their groceries. Go find, go to a senior center. I mean, you can pretty much show up anywhere.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, everyone needs help, you know.

[Liz Plank]

And I have to say, like, it really helped me a lot when I started doing that.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like that just that mantra, actually do something. And if that's not it, you know, I posted the other day, if you're like, this isn't normal, I don't know how we're supposed to go through the day. But Scott Galloway is doing this whole like, resist unsubscribe thing. Unsubscribe to a thing?

[Liz Plank]

Yes, unsubscribe to a thing.

[Raina Greenberg]

Take your money out of what? That's not directly tied to the Epstein files, for example, but it's all tied in together. It's all tied together. Just do one thing.

[Liz Plank]

You have so much Power?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Liz Plank]

You have so much power, and they want you to think that you don't, and you do. Power is something you give to people. It is not a currency that people have.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right.

[Liz Plank]

Like. Like, I mean, here. Right. I wrote a book and you're asking me questions and you're like, oh, you have a master's degree in this thing. And, like, you know, I have this authority. If I go to, I don't know, my house where my mom is, like, you're fucking annoying. And like, why don't you know what I mean then? Like, I don't have power, actually, you know, I have. I'm like a daughter. I'm like just a kid to her.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Liz Plank]

So it's like the people who are in power have power because of you.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Liz Plank]

Like, they are. I know the government feels very corrupt and it is. But, like, they have power because you voted them in and people voted them in. They don't just have that. And so the part about joy and the part about going out and doing something is that it reminds you of your power. It reminds you you do have influence on the world. If you do something nice to someone else, they'll do something nice. But you have an effect in the world that you're living in. And I think that sometimes, you know. Yeah. If you're just scrolling or you're just reading the news, you're like, I don't matter at all. You know? And you really do. You really do.

[Raina Greenberg]

You really.

[Liz Plank]

That's the only thing that's ever changed anything.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Liz Plank]

Is people realizing that they matter, you know?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. I think that's really important to remember.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, we're take a quick break and get right back into it with Liz. I'm telling you guys about Vivrel. So Ashley, you're gonna go away on this trip and you want stuff that's, like, stylish and, like, stuff that you can wear in, like, hot weather. So Vivrel is actually perfect. It's a members only club where you can borrow designer bags, jewelry, watches, and even diamonds. So it's like rotating your dream closet. This is perfect for vacation to me because, like, we buy stuff and you're like, I might just wear this once. This is perfect for, like, Singapore, but I might not wear it anywhere else. So this is like, a perfect place to do that. And there are no return dates, so you can keep it as long as you want. So if you're gonna go away for like, two weeks and you're like, I will get around to this when I get around. To this, that's great. You can buy it for less than anywhere else. Also, if you are falling in love with your item, so you can just keep it, pay for it. Love that the classic tier is 1 39amonth and it's by far the most popular and makes the most sense. But they're constantly refreshing the inventory. So if you're looking for like, I mean like really high end brands to borrow like Prada, Fendi, Saint Laurent, Dior, they have all these brands you like drool over and maybe you don't wanna keep and shell out for. So they add millions of dollars new pieces every single week. There's always a reason to go back on the site. And they gave us an amazing offer which expires at the end of the month. So if you've been curious waiting for a sign, you can use our referral code GGE to get your first month of membership completely for free. This is the time to join. You guys will really love it. There's so much fun stuff to shop on there. Also, festival season is coming up. Like people are going to start vacationing. Go to vivrel.com and apply for a membership today using the referral code GGE for the first month of membership free. The code will also allow you to skip the Vivarel waitlist. That's V I V-R-E-L-L-E.com. use code GGE for your first month for free.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. And ladies, if you have ever felt like something was off in your body but couldn't quite explain what, I feel like we've all been there. Or maybe you've even gone to the doctor and you couldn't get the answers you needed or you were told everything is fine and you're like, it's not fine. I know it's not fine. I know my body. We as women are so intuitive and I feel like we, we always know when something's wrong. But when you can't seem to figure it out, or the doctors can't seem to figure it out, it can be super frustrating. So whatever your concern is, from changes in your body, unexplained weight gain, to anxiety, to perimenopause or menopause symptoms, this is where hers can help. They are flipping the script and rethinking our outdated healthcare system to finally give women what they deserve. Care that's accessible, convenient, built around our real needs and backed by experts in women's health. And it is really easy to start. You're gonna complete a free online medical intake form that goes beyond the basics so you can explain what you're experiencing and if something feels off but you aren't sure what. HERS also offers access to in depth lab testing to give you real clarity. And then if you're eligible, a licensed medical provider will determine right for you treatment plan options. And HERS offers comprehensive care entirely online for the health concerns women don't want to navigate alone. You can reach out 247 with any questions or help adjusting your plan. It's care that helps you move forward instead of staying stuck so feeling like yourself again doesn't feel so far away. So get the support that actually reflects your needs and start your free [e-mail] that's F O-R H E-R S.com for hers.com. okay, well, let's talk about dating. You've dated all. So we don't name them.

[Ashley Hess]

List them.

[Raina Greenberg]

We? Yeah, names and addresses.

[Ashley Hess]

Start with the most famous.

[Raina Greenberg]

We do a segment called Doxy that's coming up.

[Ashley Hess]

Give us phone numbers. Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

I am obsessed with talking about categories of people you've dated. When it comes to athletes, actors, politicians,

[Ashley Hess]

all, we're gonna rank the worst man. Oh, okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

I love that. We can do a positive spin. Oh, I like that.

[Ashley Hess]

I like best.

[Raina Greenberg]

We'll do best.

[Liz Plank]

Okay, I like best.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Liz Plank]

But go best to worst.

[Ashley Hess]

What am I gonna say?

[Liz Plank]

You're like, which one is. Was good?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Liz Plank]

Who is your favorite profession? You've dated?

[Raina Greenberg]

You have comedians and chefs. I feel like on lockdown.

[Ashley Hess]

I've dated good and bad. I've had good and bad. I dated a lawyer. I dated.

[Liz Plank]

Was I good?

[Ashley Hess]

Neutral, right up the middle.

[Raina Greenberg]

Not bad. Okay, not bad. But when it comes to, like, a little more on the fame side, like, what do you think? I mean, actors.

[Liz Plank]

I mean, I think male actors are

[Ashley Hess]

like, what's the upside?

[Liz Plank]

What's the upside? I mean, look, it's very. If you are dating a male actor, it's so dreamy. I mean, it's sort of dreamy, right, because he's. He's liked by so many people. Right. And coveted. And he chose you. You know, I think that's why I was attracted to that or, you know, and I dated people that I, you know, had nice qualities and things that I liked about them. But I think there's that element of like, I, you know, it's toxic and like, it's a problem of self worth, which I'm, like, working on.

[Ashley Hess]

But I understand what you're saying.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, it feels. You feel special. You're like, oh, my God, he likes me.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know, you said they want princess treatment.

[Liz Plank]

They want princess treatment. They're divas. Yeah, they're divas because. Because they get treated like divas. Yeah, right. Everyone is at their beck and call. You know, I remember once I was dating. Well, he was an athlete, but I was, you know, he. He didn't want princess treatment, but he wanted to be famous. You know, there was that element, which we've talked about, and he wanted to live in la, so it's a double whammy. And so I had reservations, you know, I was like, oh, I don't know if this is good. And then I heard him on a zoom call, and I heard how everyone was talking to him. Hi, how's it go? And I was like, oh, my God. That explains everything.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes.

[Liz Plank]

Because I don't talk to you like that, and you hate it, you know, And. And that's sort of the standard. And so not to, like, you know, but they. It's like everything's according to their mood, their schedule.

[Ashley Hess]

Everything orbits around them.

[Raina Greenberg]

They're the sun. Yeah.

[Liz Plank]

And that's not hot. That's very girly. It's very girly. You know, it's. It's their tummy aches if they heat them. And it's like, all right, I can't. Like, I'm the one.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's like, you can't be the one.

[Liz Plank]

You can't be.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, we can't bother. There are matches for them out there. There are. Exactly. There are women that are like, whatever. That. What you're saying doesn't bother me at all. I want to live that life, and I'll talk to them like that, and I don't care. But it just couldn't be me.

[Liz Plank]

No, I've looked, because sometimes I. I reminisce, you know? Well, we all do. And then I look, go look on their profiles, and I'm like. And I'll see their new girlfriend. And I'm like, that makes sense. Like, she totally. She's like a model that, you know, doesn't have a job. You know, I'm like, that works. Follow him around the world. You know, I can't.

[Raina Greenberg]

And she's living the dream.

[Liz Plank]

She is. Good for her, Good for them. You know, I think that's what I really. I was thinking about that, about it this week, where it's like, my type. What? What is it? It's like, my type is bad. Like, I really. I don't like my type.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, it's.

[Raina Greenberg]

But wait, what do you mean by that?

[Ashley Hess]

People that are successful and that have. Yeah.

[Liz Plank]

Like, who are very charming and give me a lot of attention at first, you know, and. Yeah, very impressive, very smart, very.

[Raina Greenberg]

And.

[Liz Plank]

And then I hate. I hate it because they're obsessed with themselves. They're charming with me, but they're gonna be charming with every other person. Right? They need a lot of attention. And if they don't get it from me, they're gonna go get it from someone else. They're good at manipulating because they manipulate people's perception of them, so they know how to manipulate yours. To me, it's that. It's. It's always. It's like, oh, my God, this person. It's like, oh, my God, this person. You know?

[Raina Greenberg]

That's what I'm saying though, you people

[Ashley Hess]

that are like a star, because that's attractive. Success is attractive. Confidence is attractive. Everybody thinking this person is great and then picking you, the attention from them, it's like, it's.

[Liz Plank]

You're drunk on it, you're drunk.

[Ashley Hess]

But a lot comes with that. Like, if they're the star, you. There's only one star.

[Liz Plank]

There's only one star.

[Raina Greenberg]

You don't get it all. Like, you have to. We always talk about, like, the things that may be attractive could also be what makes someone unattractive. Like, yes, and there's unicorns out there. But a lot of women want this really rich, hot, tall, uber successful guy that, aside from a trust fund, is like someone that's probably worked non stop. You want this CEO, you want this high power CEO vibe, but you also want him to be this present father who's in therapy who dotes on you. They don't go together. I've never seen it. That's true. You got to kind of pick and choose because these traits don't actually fit in one human.

[Liz Plank]

Okay, but here's my take. What you're saying is we love contradictions, right? We love a guy who's an athlete, who's hot, but goes to therapy. We love a guy who's rich but also, like, makes you dinner, right? And I would argue men also like that in women. Men like women who are feminine. Like, I'm a Pilates instructor, but I have my own studio, you know? Like, they want feminine and masculine too, but I think women are better at exuding both because we're allowed, right? Like, we're encouraged even.

[Ashley Hess]

We're encouraged that women are constantly, constantly encouraged. Don't forget that you're a woman. Don't forget you have to make them feel good. I mean, we are constantly coached to don't forget.

[Liz Plank]

Don't forget. And we know exactly. We're always thinking about what they want us to be like. I feel like, as a girl, you just know what they want you to. You know, we're. It's called. What do they call it? I mean, the male gaze. It's. It's internalized.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Liz Plank]

We literally have it. Sometimes you don't even know, do I like this or do I think, do I know the guys like it? And that's why I like it.

[Ashley Hess]

So was it Sarah Silverman? In her recent special, she said, like, women know how to exist in a male world because we have had to exist in it. We've been coached and trained. And men have not had to do that.

[Raina Greenberg]

No.

[Liz Plank]

They have no clue.

[Ashley Hess]

And I don't know that I like the contradiction.

[Liz Plank]

It's just.

[Ashley Hess]

I. I don't know. I've rarely found somebody that can be in both camps. And a friend of mine was talking to me about her husband, and she was like, he's not the most alpha guy, but I trust him. I know he's going to show up for me. I know he's consistent. She's like, sometimes I'm like, do I want a more alpha guy? But I like these things. And I was like, I don't know that you're gonna find. Yeah, you really like.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think it's realistic about what exists in one person, male or female. Like, sometimes the things we see guys want in a woman that doesn't. Doesn't work like that. Even the most dynamic, incredible woman, these things don't coexist. Like, it just. Whatever it may be. Like, I'm just talking about in general, when you really don't kind of understand what can be in one person.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah. I also think women need higher standards than men because we have more. I mean, Scott talks about this a lot, and it's just a fact of nature. Like, there's a lot more cost to us. I mean, talk not just about men as predator. Like, you could get literally kidnapped if you go on a date with the wrong guy. Or. Or again, I mean, you end up in an abusive relationship that's a threat to your safety or emotional safety, but, like, we get pregnant, we get STDs more easily.

[Ashley Hess]

They.

[Liz Plank]

They go inside of us. Like, there's like a. There's just biological differences that mean. And this is throughout the animal kingdom. Right. Like, if there's a really good book. Cat Bohannon called Eve. I'm obsessed with this book, but it has A long subtitle.

[Raina Greenberg]

It says, Eve how the female body drove 200 million years of human Evolution.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, basically, this book changed my life. If you are a woman and you are struggling with your dating life and you're like, oh, my God, are my standards too high? Should I have settled? Should I have dated that male actor who makes no money and is into crypto. Like, you read this book and you go, oh, my God, Women are supposed to be choosy. Women are supposed to pick the best guys and not the violent, aggressive ones. And the only reason we've survived it as a species is because women were like, that guy's helpful. That guy's good for me. Or he's good for my offspring. And so I think it's good to be choosy. Yeah, it's important. It's kind of, again, our natural sort of state as women and. And we have a lot more to

[Raina Greenberg]

lose, you know, I totally. I totally agree. I just think sometimes you might think you want something you don't like you.

[Liz Plank]

Well, that's true.

[Raina Greenberg]

You want all these good qualities and you want them to be a billionaire.

[Ashley Hess]

Like, find me one about women for a long time too, that, like, met and report that I want this person who's like a badass and I go get her and she makes her own money and. But I want her to be soft and I want her to be, you know, nurturing. And I want to be like. It's like to your point that you don't get everything in one person. I mean, I'm not work obsessed, but my job is my life. It's the most important thing. What Ashley and I have built is the most important thing I'll ever do with my life. I'm so proud of it. A partner will come second to that, a close second. And I mean, Ashley's husband is such a part of our business and he's traveled with us, he's at our shows, and he's fans of us. And he just like, loves to watch his wife on stage and be like, look at her go. But if you like all those really alpha characters in a woman, and then

[Raina Greenberg]

you still want her to cook and clean and do all the things.

[Ashley Hess]

Be available seven days a week. I'm not your girl.

[Liz Plank]

What about you? When you're married, like, is your part is. Is what you. Your business more important than your husband? Or is it equal? Or is he supposed to be more important?

[Raina Greenberg]

My relationship with Reyna is the most important. So important that she's like my family, like my sister. But if it was like, pick your husband or the podcast, I wouldn't, I don't. I wouldn't.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, well, you wouldn't pick a partner that would ever point you, right?

[Liz Plank]

Make you have to raise.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't know, it was the apocalypse and it was like. Like, pick your husband or girls gotta eat, get shut down. I would pick my husband. Yeah, I guess so. It's like.

[Ashley Hess]

What I'm saying, though is, like, because

[Raina Greenberg]

human relationships and connections are like.

[Liz Plank]

Are important.

[Ashley Hess]

I don't want somebody that tours a lot for work, and I would be. Well, then I don't think I'm your girl.

[Liz Plank]

No.

[Ashley Hess]

Like, we wouldn't get any worries.

[Raina Greenberg]

But it goes back to your original point of how we balance each other out. And it's really beautiful.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

And whatever, whatever relationship. Heterosexual and not, you know, finding people, people like that work together and can be almost a yin and yang is, like, really special.

[Liz Plank]

It is. And the best relationships I've had were when the, you know, the people I. I was doing and. And the guys were helping my career. Right. And. And not like, doing things for me or whatever, but being, I don't know, just like supporting me so much. And actually I could be my best self in my job because of them, you know, So I think that's what, that's what I'm looking for.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, yes, I really think that book that you mentioned is so important. I just. I really love this, like, counteracting of Am I too Picky? It's like, yes, understand why you should be. You should be, like, having unrealistic standards and Is one thing, but like, you should not settle.

[Liz Plank]

Don't settle. It's dangerous. It's dangerous. Literally dangerous to settle.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Liz Plank]

I mean, and we all know stories. We can all, I mean, or in my own past, I mean, I'm like, ooh, thank God I didn't have a

[Ashley Hess]

baby with that guy.

[Liz Plank]

I almost did. And, you know, a lot of people do, and then they, you know, survive and thrive. And it's amazing. Women are amazing. Women are literally resilient. Doesn't even, you know, begin to explain it, but no, that's normal. It's natural. And also, tons of, you know, in that book, again, she talks about, and I don't know if you. How you feel about kids or whatever, but, you know, I think for a lot of women, I think a lot of women right now I'm feeling it where I feel like if I was 10 years younger, not because of my age, but because of the time that I would have been my age 10 years ago. I feel like I would have a family and I would have kids because the world was just very different.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Liz Plank]

And I think that there are a lot of women who are kind of grieving the life that they thought that they would have. And that doesn't mean they want to just find a guy and have kids and just make it work just because they want kids. But they're like, okay, that didn't work out because of a million different reasons. And so what does life look like? And, yeah, like, you know, the tradwife discourse. And again, patriarchy is normal and women are meant to be mothers, and that's your natural. She basically, Cabohanon cites multiple. Multiple species where like 20% of the entire species doesn't have children because they contribute in different ways and make that species survive. So, like everyone, again, it comes back to contributing. Everyone has a role and everyone is important. And no matter how your life turned out, that, that's just the way you know that, that it, it, it's. It's not wrong. And you didn't do anything wrong. I think that's, like, important. That's what I need to hear sometimes.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's so important. I get so mad of this, like, women are just meant to have children discourse. I won't even entertain it. But, like, I'm paying into the system for your kids that I don't. And I don't want kids. And I'm happy to do it. I'm like, playing my part in the village, in the community. And of course, I have nephews too. But I'm like, I am playing my part and I actually want to do more because I've chosen not to have you can kids. And we need people to have kids. Like, we have to procreate. We have, like, the population is shrinking. We need younger people to care for older people. Like, I'm in full support of people. I mean, it's a tough time now, but I've always felt like I'm more than happy to pay taxes and support kids as someone who is never going to have that.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Because that's how the society functions. Totally.

[Liz Plank]

And you're probably working more. You know, all those extra hours you're contributing in taxes and, you know, it's.

[Ashley Hess]

I can travel more so my money goes into the economy.

[Liz Plank]

There we go to people.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. You want kids or have you cheated?

[Liz Plank]

Gosh, guys, I don't know.

[Raina Greenberg]

I used to.

[Liz Plank]

And you're tough. Yeah, it's. My life is different than how I thought it would Be, you know, I, I really think, yeah, I'm not willing to settle and I'm not willing to like date someone. Yeah. Who, who sort of crushes my dreams or who needs princess dream anywhere. Male ACTOR Like I, I, I'm, I'm really proud of all of my choices and I still don't know what. Yeah, the future sort of holds, but I'm open to it.

[Ashley Hess]

I appreciate you vulnerable about that. You said that we're watching so many people like mourn the life that they didn't get to have, won't get to have. And I have several girlfriends that are turning 40 or they're in their early 40s and I think thought they would have kids but they are proud of the decisions that they made, like you said. And you know, living in both camps of like, I'm not going to maybe not get the kids, but like, look at all the great things that I have in my life and I didn't choose a partner that wouldn't have made me happy exactly to have those things. I think all those things can exist in one person. And I, I'm glad you said like mourning the life that you thought you would have.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, I think it's important to acknowledge that because I, yeah, sometimes I feel like on the Internet, you know, there's sort of two choices. You know, you have the trad wife, like being a mom is the best thing ever and you'll never regret it. And, and then there's the, you know, I'm child free and I just had the best vacation of my life and children suck and you're like, well, I'm, I don't really identify with either of those, you know, I, I love children. And also, I mean, I think sometimes it's even weird that again, as a child free person who really thinks that that should be an option that's not, you know, sort of marginalized. I do think that sometimes it can turn into this anti child thing and it's like, no, children are amazing and children like we should love them and but yeah, sometimes I feel like, well, I have all this love to give, you know, and I don't know where to put it, you know, that's kind of what I'm feeling now, you know, and, and, and I get to acknowledge that that's sad, but also, okay, then what can I do with this one precious life, you know, and so now it's like I don't get to be a parent right now and maybe I won't, you know, be a parent. And that's what's meant to happen. But I get to like reparent myself. Like, I get to like, I'm like, okay, if I have now income and disposable income that I'm not. Yeah. Spending on like, you know, tuition or whatever or like diapers. Okay, what would like my, my younger self, like, what can I, what can I give her? Like, so I got, you know, even like I'm sort of. I've had a situation. Hold on, I shouldn't talk about it. Anyway, I've had a change in my living situation and. And so I was like, okay, this is sad. And like I'm mourning. Yeah. A lot. But then I'm like, okay, what would my 8 year old self be like, like what would be her dream home?

[Ashley Hess]

You know?

[Liz Plank]

And so I got, I. I'm getting all these little, you know, this heart shaped little, you know, lamp and I got like, I got a machine that like warms up your towels for my bathroom. I'm like, it's like, I don't need

[Raina Greenberg]

it, I need that.

[Liz Plank]

But I'm gonna spend it because for her, like, she's like, what? Like, you know, so I get to sort of give her this amazing life and, and reparent her and get so much out of what she also gives me. If I can stay connected to her and if that's what I've done with my life, you know, like impacted so many people. Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, I will listen to this today. Like, you will have helped them get through the day. Like, people will message us like, you helped raise me. Like we've, you know, you are doing that for people. You're like this really positive female role model. Like, that's. I hope so. Yeah, you are. Yeah, totally. It's like undoubtedly. So that's like part of it, you know, like you've showed, I hate to be like this person, but you've showed young women what they can be. So I always think of, you know, we're all kind of moms in our own way. We are.

[Liz Plank]

And also happiness is so relative, you know, at the same time as I'm grieving this life that I thought I would have, I don't think I'm less happy.

[Raina Greenberg]

Totally.

[Liz Plank]

I don't think. I mean, it's so hard to quantify. But you know, I know that there are women who are, you know, who are in my life who have kids and who are looking at me and they're like, oh my God, if only I could spend 30 bucks on a towel warmer, you know, like, and they maybe are Grieving that. Something else.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Liz Plank]

So, you know, I think it's also that, you know, we measure ourselves. We think we sort of have this terminal uniqueness. Right. It's like, well, my life is sad, and I didn't achieve this. But they're moms who didn't achieve certain things because they, you know, we're at home with their kids and.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Liz Plank]

And also, you always get to start over. You know, I think as women, you get to reimagine. You get to rebrand yourself at any time.

[Ashley Hess]

And to your point, I think you can be a little more of a digestible role model, because there are these camps of, like, being a mother is the most important job in the whole. And. And you have this other camp of, like, kids. My life is so good, you know, And I think most people exist in

[Liz Plank]

the middle, I think so.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know, it's interesting you brought that up, because as I have never wanted kids my whole life, and really, it's a part of my personality. We've done an episode on it, and I don't resonate with, like, those memes and those things that much. If they feel really aggressive to me, I'll send them to Raina privately. But I don't.

[Liz Plank]

Like, sometimes there are some funny, we'll

[Ashley Hess]

do the whole, like.

[Raina Greenberg]

We'll do the, like, can you imagine? Imagine having kids? Kind of thing. But why would I want moms to feel shamed? Like, I don't.

[Liz Plank]

I don't.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't want them shaming me. Yeah. I don't want you shaming me for my choices, so why would I.

[Ashley Hess]

We love our friends that are moms. Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Thank you for picking up the slack on the mom front.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. Like, sure.

[Liz Plank]

And do you want kids?

[Ashley Hess]

You know, so I. When I was, like, my early 20s, I was like, I will have kids even if I don't have a partner. That's how much I was like. I was like, I. I'll get back pregnant on my own. And the older I've gotten, the more I just. I don't know, the more people around me I've seen have kids, and I didn't. I never realized how much work it was. That sounds naive and silly, but, like, I didn't realize, like, how much sacrifice and how much work and how much time and how hard it is on your relationship. And honestly, all the things that you have to do to be a great parent, I do not want to do those things. And knowing that, I think is good parenting. It is being able to be like, I don't Want to be a parent because all things my parents did to be great parents. I do not want to do those things. And I don't want to bring a child into the world and resent it.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, no, me too. I'd rather regret not doing it than doing it. Oh, my God. You know, and. Yeah, I think that's one. I had the same thing where in my. Yeah. 20 or I guess when I was younger, it was so, oh, that'll happen. And then same where, like my 30s, I was like, I don't really relate, you know, and also back to the 2010s, you know, the. The Sheryl Sandberg, like, you can do it all. You can lean. And I was like, I have hives. Like, I don't. That seems not fun at all. And not only 10 years ago would have been different, but also if we lived in a differently constructed society. I mean, it's not normal to be alone in your house with your country to have a. Yes, no. It's diabolical. It's. Especially in the United States. I mean, at least I'm saying it's ridiculous. It's actually like, again, speaking of, like, when people say it's anti child, you know, people are anti child. I'm like you. The people who have children in this country without paid leave, without any kind of support. Like, they loved kids. That's why they do it. So, no, I think, you know, I think about if we lived in communes, you know, and we all kind of like live together and we share, you know, my friends who have more commune life. Life, they're not communes at all, but they really hang out as group. They have a pod. Right. That seems really more fun to me and doable and actually, actually, like, beautiful.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Liz Plank]

Then I think, yeah, some people that, you know, you're talking about where you're like, oh, that sounds not great.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, that's so nice. I feel like some people in this country, like, don't quite understand what other countries do.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, we are doing it all wrong.

[Liz Plank]

Oh, it's so.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's really sad.

[Liz Plank]

It's really sad.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, well, let's just wrap up with a few boy problems. So you have a podcast called Boy Problem, and we asked our audience some of their boy problems, and we're just going to have you weigh in on those. We mark some of our faves. Okay. The guy I'm hooking up with is elite at eating pussy, but so boring

[Ashley Hess]

is the question.

[Liz Plank]

Tell me more. Wait, we don't get any more details.

[Ashley Hess]

We just did, like, a problem.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think she's asking, like, do I. Oh, my God.

[Liz Plank]

That sounds great.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, I'm ignoring them outside on the other side of the cake.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, my gosh.

[Liz Plank]

It.

[Ashley Hess]

Lately, I've had really good. I've had some really good experiences with it, and that's great. I. Boring guys, a boring guy. I just.

[Raina Greenberg]

I can't.

[Ashley Hess]

You're gonna date a boring.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, no, I'm talking about you don't love oral sex as much. You're speaking from that standpoint.

[Liz Plank]

No, I'm.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm speaking from the standpoint of I just can't date a boring guy.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, boring guy. You are.

[Liz Plank]

Okay, see, I'm trying to manifest a boring guy. I'm trying to manifest, like, a boring, kind, loyal man.

[Ashley Hess]

Boring means something different to different people.

[Liz Plank]

That probably does.

[Raina Greenberg]

It probably does.

[Ashley Hess]

Boring to me is off the table

[Liz Plank]

because I feel like I have sought out exciting men or men who, like, I've confused those things.

[Raina Greenberg]

But do you still want to be intellectually stimulated?

[Liz Plank]

I do. Yeah. Do I. I could do a care. You know, I could do. I read, you know, I got this. I got my girls, like, fair.

[Ashley Hess]

So you got to go home and talk to that person every day.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think so.

[Liz Plank]

Dom is different than Boris.

[Ashley Hess]

And also, you're thinking stable. You're thinking committed. You're thinking predictable. Those are boring, boring stuff for me.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't know how old she is. I don't know what she's looking for. If you're just not trying to find a husband right now and you're on the dating scene, let him keep eating you. Keep eating you out.

[Ashley Hess]

Keep going down on you.

[Liz Plank]

That's what guys do all the time. Women have to let ourselves, like, just get laid, you know, because it makes you more happy. And then you can date more normally because you're not like, oh, we can have. You know, it is good to have a. A great but boring guy eats you out.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, I dated this boring guy. The problem was, like, I just had to get so drunk to hang out with him. Like, it was that bad. And I was like, I actually can't. I, like, lost my house keys. I was like, I actually, like, can't keep getting this drunk. Like, just bad, bad stuff kept happening because I was so drunk.

[Ashley Hess]

You don't want a boring guy.

[Raina Greenberg]

You could.

[Ashley Hess]

You would die.

[Raina Greenberg]

I would never go down this road. I'm just saying, I've tried it. And I was like, I can't two shirt trend, and I too short trend. He lived close. It was so convenient. But I was like, I can't keep getting this drunk to sit through a dinner.

[Liz Plank]

And he would be. He would just have nothing to say. Or he was.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, yeah, really kind of quiet, reserved. Nothing much to say. Like, I would just get drunk and do all the talking. And then the sex was good randomly, but also I was random. But if.

[Ashley Hess]

I will do a lot, if the sex is unbelievable, I can turn a blind eye to a lot.

[Liz Plank]

But, like.

[Ashley Hess]

But boring.

[Liz Plank]

You can't.

[Raina Greenberg]

Boring.

[Ashley Hess]

No, but I feel like insane sex. Like, I love that. That's great. That's important to me. But boring. And it is crazy to have somebody who's great in bed and boring if you don't find it a ton. But it does exist.

[Liz Plank]

How interesting.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, we have another one for you. Let's go through a couple. My husband works from home, and respectfully, on my days off, I want to be home alone. And she says, I'm a registered nurse. So she is on her feet all day. She's working hard. I mean, it's a lot of, like, physical manual labor that goes into her job. And I really feel for her because I love to be alone.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, no, she. You gotta have rotations. You gotta. I mean, I. During the pandemic, I lived with someone. I mean, we.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like a partner.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, a partner. And we would just kind of, like, take turns, you know, a little bit. There was a good rotation. We never had to discuss it, but I think we each, like, I'm gonna go out and do some calls at a coffee shop. You know, I'm gonna. And we. Because if we were both inside for the whole day, morning to night, I mean, that's. No, you can't. So. So I would bring it up. I would be like, hey, there's this cute co.

[Raina Greenberg]

Working space.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, we should get a membership. Or, you know, And. And you can say it in a nice, mean sandwich. Like, I love you so much. I love that you have to work from home. On my days off, you know, I like some time alone. And why don't you go treat yourself to, like, a coffee? Here's five bucks, you know, like. Like, do something alone at the house.

[Ashley Hess]

She does it.

[Liz Plank]

Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's like she's never. You're totally right. That's what it is. He's not always alone at the house, enjoying that time. And she doesn't have it at all.

[Liz Plank]

Right.

[Ashley Hess]

And I do think some people will be a little sensy when they first hear that. But that is a really valid ask of, like, I would like to also Be at the house sometimes with myself. Also. Eat my.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay.

[Liz Plank]

Eat my.

[Raina Greenberg]

He's really hot, and women throw themselves at him, and I feel insecure sometimes, which, I mean, this was. Talking about dating like that.

[Ashley Hess]

So I. I think it depends on the. I think it depends on the man.

[Liz Plank]

Okay.

[Ashley Hess]

No, that's true.

[Liz Plank]

That's true. Yeah. How does he so, like.

[Ashley Hess]

I dated this guy who's so big. I mean, he's like six four, covered in tattoos, beard, everybody. I mean, I. It was uncomfortable for me to, like, go to a bar with him because everybody looked at him and, like, stared at him and he just ignored it. Didn't bother me. But, like, some guys, they acknowledge it. They like the attention. That's. I just. It would have been really tough for me. I didn't even like it when he acted like no one was around.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Still bothered me.

[Liz Plank]

No, if. If he's hot, it's fine. If he's hot and charming, we got a problem.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, yeah, again, this guy wasn't charming.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, no, no. Yeah, exactly.

[Ashley Hess]

My guy wanted nothing to do with anybody else. Yes.

[Liz Plank]

I wanted a date with a hot guy recently. Who was that? Like, he's hot, but he, like, doesn't he need. He doesn't seek out validation.

[Raina Greenberg]

Totally.

[Liz Plank]

And I was like, that's great. I love that.

[Raina Greenberg]

So, yeah, like, he doesn't know he's

[Ashley Hess]

hot or he doesn't care he's hot.

[Liz Plank]

Like, he's not trying to get something out of. He doesn't need. I mean, it's validation. Does he need validation?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Liz Plank]

Because men who need validation are either exhausting or women in your life. I mean. Yeah, women. Yeah, women are allowed.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, women are allowed. My husband is hot, but I feel like he doesn't even know it. He's such a dream.

[Ashley Hess]

He also, like, has no interest in other people besides you.

[Raina Greenberg]

He looks like if someone would have the audacity to flirt with him, he would be, like, mad about it. He'd be like, how dare you speak to me? You know, I'm Ashley's husband.

[Ashley Hess]

Like, I just.

[Raina Greenberg]

He's this perfect guy. That's why I had to get someone that wasn't here and bring him. Bring him here.

[Liz Plank]

How did you meet him? In Boston. You were there.

[Ashley Hess]

It was at a show.

[Liz Plank]

He came to your show?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. He was a fan. It's like a Taylor Swift. Travis Kelsey.

[Ashley Hess]

It is.

[Liz Plank]

It is Fanta lover Pipeline.

[Ashley Hess]

Ashley, Kelsey.

[Raina Greenberg]

Fan to lover.

[Liz Plank]

Find a fan. Find yourself a fan. I can't recommend it enough. Truly.

[Raina Greenberg]

Marry your biggest fan.

[Liz Plank]

Marry your biggest fan. And you don't have to be public.

[Raina Greenberg]

A public person.

[Ashley Hess]

If he's not.

[Raina Greenberg]

He's creepy. No, I think I probably have a bigger fan than Shoshana because that one guy gave me the whole room key and all that.

[Ashley Hess]

But a stalker. It's not a fan.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah. Don't marry your stalker. Don't marry a stalker fan. And stalker is Okay.

[Ashley Hess]

I have a question for you. My fiance is insistent that I change my last name. But I love my name. What. What's the deal?

[Liz Plank]

What's his. It's none of his business. It's your name.

[Raina Greenberg]

I know.

[Liz Plank]

None of his business.

[Raina Greenberg]

If she really wants to stay with this guy, he needs to work this out in therapy. Like, he needs to realize where this is coming from. His parents are probably telling him that's crazy. She won't change her name. Like, he's getting it from all angles. He can't imagine it otherwise. If you're gonna have kids, they're gonna have the same last name. Like, he needs to work through this patriarchal shit on his own.

[Liz Plank]

It's not yours.

[Raina Greenberg]

Because this is, like, the first of other things that will come up 100. So it is a red flag. But he can maybe work through this with the help of. He can own it.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

You should speak to him.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah. He can read the book. I mean.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Or again, I don't DM me.

[Liz Plank]

And you don't even have to, like, say, it's really patriarchal, you're saying. Because then he'll just get in defensive mode.

[Raina Greenberg]

I wasn't too.

[Liz Plank]

You just say, no, no, no.

[Raina Greenberg]

But.

[Liz Plank]

But I. I think just make it about you. Like, oh, I really like my name. And I'll say, you don't have to.

[Raina Greenberg]

Really.

[Ashley Hess]

Why Is what you want. Why does that supersede what I want? Like, why?

[Liz Plank]

It doesn't. But she gets this. But she gets to decide.

[Raina Greenberg]

But I think he's gonna go down the road of, like, but this is what's done. Sure.

[Liz Plank]

But he gets to have those feelings. But she gets. She. But she needs to decide for herself. And it's not a group decision. I mean, it's just not. And. And I think sometimes women, you know, we are only okay with the decision if the guy agrees to it. And it's like, you actually don't get a. It's not a.

[Ashley Hess]

It's.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, it's not a focus group. You know, It's. It's like, I understand that you have different feelings about it, and you would like something different, but, like, it's. It's I'm not gonna do that. And. And if you, you know, have issues around it. Yeah. Like, let's talk through how you're going to deal with it. But like, I. I really think it's like, she needs to.

[Raina Greenberg]

Totally.

[Ashley Hess]

I like that language too. I. I am not going to do this.

[Liz Plank]

That.

[Ashley Hess]

But we can talk about how you are gonna feel.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Here's what I think she should do.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Tell him.

[Ashley Hess]

Tell him to change his name.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. Tell him to change. And then he'll be like, what are you saying? And she could be like, here's all these examples. Case Torino did it. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Here's all these. If he thinks that's crazy, then. Yeah, then I think it's crazy. It's the same thing.

[Raina Greenberg]

But are you guys hearing my strategy? Do that. Be dead ass serious about it. And then he will agree on just keeping the middle.

[Liz Plank]

Yes. You're changing the anchor you're making. You're changing the overtone window.

[Raina Greenberg]

Exactly.

[Liz Plank]

Yes. Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like with your parents, like when you would, like, they think you did the bad thing and you only did the kind of bad thing and then you didn't get in trouble.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Liz Plank]

You're like, I could have been taking ecstasy, but I only used my thought.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, totally.

[Liz Plank]

Okay. Okay.

[Ashley Hess]

He's like, also, he's like, that's crazy. You can be like, imagine how I feel.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah. End of conversation.

[Raina Greenberg]

Our kids can have my last name. This isn't illegal. People do.

[Ashley Hess]

Also, I have to make the kids.

[Liz Plank]

And also there's this new law now where like, you women can't vote anymore. Like, stop it. Stop it. Shut the up. Like. Like a rapist is president.

[Raina Greenberg]

Sorry. Rapist pedo, we like to say a rapist pedo.

[Liz Plank]

Like, are running the world. Like, you're really going to. Sorry. This is where I'm like, love men, but, like, don't.

[Ashley Hess]

Don't some men.

[Liz Plank]

No.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, just don't.

[Liz Plank]

Come on, dude.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, we're being so.

[Ashley Hess]

Like this one. Listen, this is women in men's fields. And I know you're gonna read it.

[Raina Greenberg]

If a man said it, it would be problematic. But whatever. That's not how it works.

[Liz Plank]

It's not.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's in a patriarchy, okay? He comes over after 10pm and doesn't put out. Why are you taking up space?

[Ashley Hess]

He wants to be near you, but

[Liz Plank]

he just comes over at 10 to cuddle.

[Ashley Hess]

Also, why 10pm that's what.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, I think that's her point. I'm saying that's her point. She's like, why are you coming over at 10. Like, 10 is booty call time.

[Ashley Hess]

Like, spend the evening with me. Let's spend some time together. Like, I don't. Well, you know, every time I have sex with somebody at my house, I kick them out. I don't want you to stay here.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't. But it's the time. It's like 10pm like, if you. If you're here, I would like to hook up. If you're not. I want to watch Love is Homeless.

[Liz Plank]

Like, what's going on? Why does he need a bed?

[Ashley Hess]

Like, 10pm why?

[Liz Plank]

Are you crazy?

[Ashley Hess]

No, this is normal for you to be like, 10. Well, us in LA. 7pm is my bedtime.

[Liz Plank]

7pm is your bedtime. 10 is like 2am I think he

[Raina Greenberg]

has a family and he's coming over after his kids go to bed.

[Liz Plank]

No, some things go. I mean, again, just say he's dating me and L. What's. Can we. Why can't we have sex? Just say it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. Oregon, can you come over? Can we go to dinner?

[Liz Plank]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Can you put out a free meal out of this? Why aren't you putting out?

[Liz Plank]

Yeah. Can you.

[Ashley Hess]

Can I just get some finger stuff?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah. Just go eat me out.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Get the same guy. The boring guy.

[Liz Plank]

Right. That's weird.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. We'll get more info.

[Liz Plank]

I get really. And women, we feel rejected when guys don't want to sleep with us. I feel like we, like. Because guys are horn dogs. So you're like, why aren't you being a horn dog?

[Raina Greenberg]

There's nothing worse. Yeah. And I mean, they have their own going on, you know, they're expected always.

[Liz Plank]

But. But at 10:00pm, it's. Those are the rules. That's the law. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm watching my shows. I'm going to sleep.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

All right. Well, Liz, you're amazing. I feel like this was so fun.

[Liz Plank]

You guys are so fun. I love this.

[Ashley Hess]

We. We just know everybody want to, like, find you. So can you drop your Instagram handle anything else?

[Liz Plank]

I.

[Ashley Hess]

My.

[Liz Plank]

My podcast is boy problems. You can watch it anywhere on Spotify, YouTube. My YouTube channel is Liz Plank. I'm trying to grow it, so it really means a lot if you follow me there and then. Feminist Fabulous. On Instagram, I'm Liz plank on TikTok. I'm trying to be a streamer. I'm manifesting because it's like a boy corner. And I'm like. Like, I want women to be owning that space, and so I'm trying to do Twitch, too. So I'm listening on Twitch. What else am I doing? Oh, I have a movie coming out. It's called not so Special. It's about disability rights and I wore the merch. So, yeah, we're premiering at south by Southwest in March. And. Yeah, those are the things. Those are the things.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right?

[Ashley Hess]

Okay.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, that's perfect. Have a substack.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, you guys know where to find us. Girls gotta eat dot com. Get the tickets to our Netflix is a joke festival show.

[Liz Plank]

Yeah, Netflix is a joke.

[Ashley Hess]

That's cool.

[Raina Greenberg]

Congrats in LA. It is it coming up May 7th.

[Liz Plank]

Oh, my God, I want to come.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. Liz will be there. You guys get tickets. Girls got epodcast and Instagram and Tik Tok. I'm Ash Hess. Raina is Raina Greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube, share this episode with a friend and we will see Thursday.

[Ashley Hess]

Have a good week, guys.

[Raina Greenberg]

Sa.