The Dating Experiment Designed to Change Your Life feat. Amy Chan

Summary

Girls Gotta Eat - "The Dating Experiment Designed to Change Your Life" feat. Amy Chan

Release Date: April 27, 2026
Hosts: Ashley Hesseltine & Raina Greenberg | Guest: Amy Chan

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Episode Overview

This episode features recurring guest Amy Chan—relationship coach, founder of Renew Breakup Bootcamp, and author of the new book Unsingle: How to Date Smarter and Create Love That Lasts—for a transformative discussion on dating. Building on her previous work centered on breakups, Amy now shares science-backed, actionable insights and a step-by-step "dating funnel" developed through her experience coaching singles. The conversation covers shifting unhelpful dating patterns, overcoming dating fatigue and cynicism, and how her unique dating experiment can help listeners change their romantic destinies. The tone is honest, supportive, and sprinkled with the co-hosts’ trademark humor and candid self-reflection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Amy Chan’s Philosophy: You’re Only a Few Shifts Away

• Amy Chan: "Most people are only one to two shifts away from being able to create a healthy relationship. Okay, I know that sounds wild...it's really hopeful." (00:00)
• Amy explains that dating challenges often trace back to a handful of repeating behaviors or mindsets; by identifying and tweaking these, people can dramatically shift their romantic outcomes.

2. The Importance of Self-Work Before Dating

• Amy emphasizes: Don’t leap into maximizing dates before examining your own patterns. She often pauses clients who want tactical dating strategies, guiding them through reflection first.
  • Amy Chan: "Before we do that…I could put the perfect person in front of you…and it’s gonna end up in the same result…which is failure." (30:07)
• Raina shares her personal experience: a coaching session with Amy that led to deep emotional breakthroughs before even thinking about getting out there again. (32:11)

3. The "Dating Funnel": Stages for Smarter Dating

Amy introduces a marketing-inspired framework to optimize the dating process:

• Prospecting/Lead Generation: Have three sources (e.g., apps, hobbies, social groups). Repeated contact (the "mere exposure effect") can build connection in low-pressure settings. (36:14)
• Discovery: First 1–2 dates as a vibe check, not an interview for lifelong compatibility. (38:09)
• Evaluation: Dates 3–20 (or about three months): Observe how people handle real-life situations (conflict, travel, commitment consistency). Beware of charming first impressions—look for relational depth, not just "good at dating." (39:17)
• Commitment: When the "four pillars" are present: chemistry, compatibility (shared values/life vision), timing, and mutuality (equal investment).
• Retention: The advanced stage (a "whole other book and retreat"). (42:11)

4. Breaking Patterned Attraction & The Dating Experiment

Amy’s "dating experiment" requires clients to deliberately date out of their type—without entering into relationships during the experiment. This:

• Challenges ingrained attraction circuits (e.g., always chasing unavailable partners).
• Lowers stakes and presence on dates as there’s no immediate relationship goal.
• Often results in clients finding happiness with unexpected partners.
  • Amy Chan: "[The experiment is] really shifting your chemistry compass…to go from like unavailability and anxiety and chaos to getting familiar with what stable and peaceful feels like." (45:11)
  • Amy Chan: "Eighty percent of the time…they end up getting into a relationship…and they're like 'I'm with someone I would have never [expected]…'" (46:22)

5. Overcoming Modern Dating Challenges

• Inflation of "icks"—the modern hyper-picky approach sometimes eliminates great potential partners for trivial reasons. (33:02)
• Preferences vs. Deal Breakers: Many are conflated; Amy guides clients to focus on "deal breakers" that forecast true happiness (e.g., generosity, alignment on life goals) and not superficial markers (income, height, hobbies).
• Quantity vs. Quality: Aim for nine dates (across 6–12 months, not all at once) with people outside your type. (59:13)
• Essential mindshifts: You’re not "lowering standards"—you’re recalibrating to what leads to lasting fulfillment.

6. Unhealthy Relationship Patterns: The Breadcrumb Diet

• Amy details the “breadcrumb diet”—clinging to partners who give just enough attention to keep you hooked, damaging self-esteem and fostering denial.
  • Amy Chan: "It's just enough to keep your attention and keep that tether but never enough to keep you full." (43:09)
• Only way out: total cut-off, alongside recalibration to stability.

7. Practical Tips for Being More Magnetic

• Green-lighting: Amy prescribes a week-long exercise in genuine eye contact, friendliness, and presence to practice approachability. (61:01)
• Conversation skills: Learn open-ended, engaging questions; don’t overfilter or oversell. Make others feel important—most people remember how they felt with you, not what you said. (63:35)
• Amy Chan: "If you are the type of person who can ask questions and be present…that will make you more magnetic." (63:35)
• Templated conversation guidance in Amy’s book for moving beyond small talk. (69:55)

8. Addressing Negativity & Dating Fatigue

• Amy validates the exhaustion but stresses the need for optimism; cynicism is understandable but destructive.
• Predate rituals: Cue awe and openness before meeting (e.g., watch an inspiring video or listen to uplifting music) to reset mindset. (71:42)
  • Amy Chan: "Before a date…do something that cultivates awe." (71:42)
• The journey > the outcome: Bad dates refine, not define, your progress; let failures guide future adjustments. (70:00)

9. Individualized Coaching Success Stories

• Amy shares detailed examples of clients who break out of restrictive attraction patterns and find happiness with partners they would never have previously chosen—demonstrating the power of her approach. (54:27, 55:52)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On self-work:
  "Before we do that…I could put the perfect person in front of you…and it’s gonna end up in the same result…which is failure."
  — Amy Chan [30:07]

• On dating patterns:
  "Most people are only one to two shifts away from being able to create a healthy relationship."
  — Amy Chan [00:00, 79:10]

• On the 'breadcrumb diet':
  "It's just enough to keep your attention and keep that tether but never enough to keep you full."
  — Amy Chan [43:09]

• On dating out of your type:
  "Eighty percent of the time…they end up getting into a relationship…and they're like 'I'm with someone I would have never [expected]…'"
  — Amy Chan [46:22]

• On recalibrating attraction:
  "You can’t go from unavailable people to the most loving person…you’ll find that loving person boring and you'll reject them."
  — Amy Chan [45:44]

• On being magnetic:
  "If you're the type of person who can ask questions and be present…that will make you more magnetic."
  — Amy Chan [63:35]

• On persevering through bad dates:
  "Every date, every interaction gives you insight into your desires, your priorities, and how to connect with others. Some people enter our lives to show us what we don’t want, which is just as important as discovering what we do."
  — Amy Chan (read by Ashley) [70:00]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [26:00] — Amy Chan introduction, background, and insights from her new book Unsingle.
• [29:59] — Why Amy insists on self-reflection before ramping up dating efforts.
• [35:25] — The five-stage "dating funnel" (prospecting to retention).
• [40:58] — Four pillars for healthy relationships: chemistry, compatibility, timing, mutuality.
• [42:15] — Amy’s "breadcrumb diet" and the cost of settling for intermittent attention.
• [45:11] — Shifting your "chemistry compass" and the structure of Amy’s dating experiment.
• [51:45] — Real-life coaching success stories: breaking restrictive patterns and opening up to new partner types.
• [61:01] — The "green-lighting" approach: eye contact, approachability, low-stakes flirtation.
• [63:35] — Building true magnetism: be present, make others feel important.
• [70:00] — Seeing all dating experiences as valuable steps in the journey.
• [71:42] — Rituals and resetting mindset for optimism before first dates.

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Additional Resources

• Amy Chan’s Book: Unsingle: How to Date Smarter and Create Love That Lasts, available as of April 28, 2026.
• Website: missamychan.com (includes tools like first date assessment and partnership formula).
• Previous GGE episodes with Amy: Highly recommended for those healing from a breakup.

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Final Thoughts

Amy Chan’s dating experiment and philosophy offer listeners hope by proving that transformation is possible with the right mindset and tactical shifts. Through a blend of humor, self-awareness, and targeted behavioral changes, the episode empowers anyone—whether jaded, fatigued, or just ready for a change—to begin building the love life they want, starting with themselves.

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For full show notes, resources, and to connect, visit Girls Gotta Eat.

Transcript

[Amy Chan]

most people are only one to two shifts away from being able to create a healthy relationship okay i know that

[Raina Greenberg]

sounds wild really hopeful

[Ashley Hesseltine]

this podcast is a dear media production hi guys hi

[Raina Greenberg]

guys welcome back to another episode of girls gotta eat welcome back you whipped your head off

[Ashley Hesseltine]

was i looking down

[Raina Greenberg]

like is that what we're doing now recording our episode i was just overdoing

[Ashley Hesseltine]

that i'm getting settled in can't be whipping your head around too much at

[Raina Greenberg]

this age oh yeah this morning i had a cramp in my ankle and i was like i can't it's over i'm gonna go down i'm gonna cancel

[Ashley Hesseltine]

my denver shows literally just sitting the wrong way for five minutes my leg is broken i know i forgot deodorant today you did i just like never do i just feel like musty sometimes

[Raina Greenberg]

i think i'm better than that and then i'm like oh i'm not i

[Ashley Hesseltine]

know i need deodorant and i have a travel deodorant and like a deodorant that i keep in my bathroom so it's like i've never like oh it's in my suitcase and it's always in my face is my point it's always on the counter okay do you have

[Raina Greenberg]

i have two sets of everything i have just like a travel bag of just like toiletries okay i have two

[Ashley Hesseltine]

sets of everything i have two sets of some things but i could there's points where i'm like ashley you can afford it like just buy literally the same thing buy the hair oil buy the face moisturizer what am i doing sometimes but two toothbrushes two toothpaste two flosses two deodorants like there's some stuff that always stays in the travel bag and then other times i'm like why am i moving this back and forth

[Raina Greenberg]

it's just it is the height of luxury for me every time i replace something i replace the big size and the travel size it's like that's how i feel like i know that i've made it like i don't have to steal toilet paper from my parents house anymore and i have two sets of everything you and i just travel too much i can't be like unpacking a toiletry bag every day no it just

[Ashley Hesseltine]

it saves you time time is money

[Raina Greenberg]

packing is my least for you i have a fucking meltdown every time i

[Ashley Hesseltine]

pack i feel like i'm getting worse

[Raina Greenberg]

packing oh i'm getting better i am

[Ashley Hesseltine]

always on point with what i pack it's taking me longer what do you

[Raina Greenberg]

think attributes to that i don't know

[Ashley Hesseltine]

being more neurotic i am getting more neurotic as i age really don't don't pander you know i'm neurotic no i

[Raina Greenberg]

thought you hit the top and you were just there okay stop i thought we were just at the top i actually think you've become much more chilled out in the last ten years i think that you have just mellowed out

[Ashley Hesseltine]

but i still fixate on stuff oh you hyper fixate yeah hyper fixate and so packing like i don't know i just i used to be a little

[Raina Greenberg]

quicker i will say i genuinely mean this from the bottom of my heart i don't know how people this is such a single person thing to say i don't know how people pack with somebody else in the house you and i and shashank went out to dinner the other night and you were like i haven't packed yet and you guys sent me this photo cause you had to leave in the morning and your bed was covered in stuff and like it sent a chill down my spine i don't know how people pack with a like i when i see somebody in my house i think play time i think drinking time i think let's be silly let's watch tv let's take a nap let's have sex like i don't think let me buckle down and try on fun i don't know how you do it i have to do

[Ashley Hesseltine]

all the unfun stuff with him he's

[Raina Greenberg]

there i don't know i just you are so much stronger than me like brittany wanted it so brittany this will have been a week ago at this point but brittany is coming to denver phoenix with me for my shows and she was like friday morning after phoenix i think i'm gonna fly to la to get some stuff done can i stay at your place and i was like i have to pack on saturday

[Ashley Hesseltine]

you can't stay you can't be around for this

[Raina Greenberg]

i'm not interested in house guests cause i come back for two days and you and i leave for another five days and i come back for a couple days and i leave for like eight days after that oh yeah i'm not open to house guests

[Ashley Hesseltine]

okay a couple things here we will put that pickup on the screen you guys can watch on youtube or spotify it was also a lot of laundry so this is really where i get myself into a pickle is where i'm like have done a bunch of laundry before a trip and then i have to bring all the all of the clean clothes are there and then i'm like do i actually have time to put all this stuff away and pack and it is mayhem yes but i guess i'll give you a little insight in our relationship so shashank i guess

[Raina Greenberg]

you'll tell me something well last year

[Ashley Hesseltine]

i mean shashank moved in and then a few months later i started touring i'm packing all the time and he will usually lay in the bed and he'll be scrolling or on his computer doing stuff while i am packing so we're like spending time together i mean there were times where i was coming home leaving right again so he helps me pick out stuff i really rely on him yes i really rely on him i do value his opinion for sure but also just like just having something to run stuff by like do you like the way this looks like

[Raina Greenberg]

all i have is my instagram audience

[Ashley Hesseltine]

yeah exactly so he is a real value add when i'm packing for stuff and i really do value his opinion it's also just nice to have somebody there to work stuff out to an

[Raina Greenberg]

audience i totally agree i do want somebody to be like this looks good this doesn't one time brittany and her boyfriend were going to stay over overnight that i was down for one day and i was like you can't be here you can't be here while i'm packing it's just when i'm packing for like seven days like so much goes into it i'm having a meltdown i have gotten a lot better i mean i have spent like four hours packing

[Ashley Hesseltine]

it's taking hours like hours to pack i did that eleven day trip in the first weekend i was with my family and then it was new york and i'm just like we're what events do i have what media stuff do i have what stuff can i re wear what stuff am i going to wash in delaware and workouts and shoes and jackets but i brought three jackets like i just and do you ever do this i thought i was going to bring my smaller checked bag not it's not small it's still a big checked bag and then everything's going in there's still so much stuff on the bed you're like i was sorely mistaken and you have to go get the giant suitcase this happens to me every trip i hate bringing that giant suitcase it's it's fifty five pounds and it's really difficult to maneuver yeah sometimes you

[Raina Greenberg]

have a man with you to help you i'm i just well i guess when i'm on the road i have a man with me but i got to do that by myself it's so

[Ashley Hesseltine]

hard i don't know how you do it i'm going to thank our partners

[Raina Greenberg]

actually this comes at a great time i would love to thank revolve because that is the only thing i pack it sometimes when i go to new york i'm like i won't even pack anything i'll just send stuff from revolve one hundred percent so thanks to revolve get fifteen percent off your first order at revolve dot com slash gge with

[Ashley Hesseltine]

code gge and thank you to our frames get twenty five percent off the bestselling carver matte frame at or frames dot com with code gge yes when we talk later about revolve i want to circle back to just their incredible customer service nothing's incredible they are yeah so i'm curious if you guys like to pack alone or if you like to have an audience it's it's hours and i can't i just used to be so much more willy nilly like do you remember traveling in your twenties get home drunk and pack so i

[Raina Greenberg]

use packing cubes which you buy on amazon for like twenty dollars they're all labeled i have like pants shirts like pajamas what ever i didn't i discovered packing cubes a couple years ago and the other day i was going to new york and i was like i don't have time for packing cubes and i just threw everything in the bag how the did i used to do that everything is just in the suitcase okay you pull out one thing everything's

[Ashley Hesseltine]

everywhere so this is a major difference between raina and i you don't use packing cubes i don't use packing cubes but that's not what i'm talking about we i unpack in full when i get to the hotel and we stay at the standard it's a tiny closet i have figured it out like i know where the shoes go where every shelf what hangs there's not that many hangers like the second i get to the hotel my rule is usually more than three nights i'm unpacking in full okay three nights maybe i might live out my suitcase for three nights but four plus nights i fully unpack i

[Raina Greenberg]

move in i okay i have two questions you maureen's friend ashley's friend it's crazy cause i'm so type a in my house it looks like no one lives there i had a realtor come photograph it he's like this house looks staged like no one lives here i was like that's on purpose that's by design the way my hotel room looks if i am there for fifteen minutes i've never unpacked a day in my life you're lucky if i hang a coat up it looks like a fucking

[Ashley Hesseltine]

bomb when i you explode all over

[Raina Greenberg]

and i don't know how i do it but it's like stuff is everywhere it's not dirty there's not like dishes and makeup everywhere but short of that there is stuff wall to wall hanging from the ceilings really stresses me out

[Ashley Hesseltine]

you guys like every time i have to walk in arena's room i have to get myself a pep talk like it's going to be bad in there it's going to be triggering it's going to look like a teenager's bedroom while they're going through a meltdown one time

[Raina Greenberg]

i posted a photo of my like a selfie one of our girlfriends was like whoa your hotel room and i was like that's clean i i think sometimes like if i brought a guy back here like what they would think

[Ashley Hesseltine]

i think a lot of people do this i think a lot of people check into a hotel room and fudgeing explode all over it i can't do it i keep it tight keep i just i unpack i like to keep it tidy because i don't like to think about what it's going to take to gather all that stuff together and put it back in the suitcase but i just like to really weirdly like to live like i live at home in that hotel room and you don't you're really you're treating yourself i fly

[Raina Greenberg]

by the seat of my pants and that it's crazy because it's so unlike me but okay my follow up question when you get back from a trip when do you unpack immediately or three

[Ashley Hesseltine]

weeks later but a lot of the

[Raina Greenberg]

times which one three weeks is an

[Ashley Hesseltine]

exaggeration but it's immediately or could be up to

[Raina Greenberg]

five days okay what's the

[Ashley Hesseltine]

decider i don't know whether i have the strength so my suitcase is sitting there now we got back on sunday it's a tuesday i'll probably do it tomorrow okay probably a two three day is my average toiletries like you take those out the toiletries i take out

[Raina Greenberg]

where do you put the suitcase on the floor upstairs or downstairs it's in

[Ashley Hesseltine]

my bedroom you're pretty big or your

[Raina Greenberg]

second bedroom like in your joint bedroom

[Ashley Hesseltine]

where you guys share in front of the fireplace i have the that's my side of the room no are we the big bedroom yeah when my west hollywood house i could not my bedroom was so tiny the suitcase didn't fit in the room with me i had to pack like in the dining room so i would come home and i would do it immediately but i've always been this like i do it immediately or it doesn't get done and it's gonna get done when it gets done and sometimes the worst is when you have another trip and you haven't unpacked from the trip like and you are like i have a suitcase on the floor and now i got another suitcase

[Raina Greenberg]

on the floor this has never happened to me i okay yeah what do you no matter the time of day it can be eleven o' clock at night maybe after ten pm i don't but i walk in the door and i unpack and i have to really

[Ashley Hesseltine]

usually my suitcase so we do this

[Raina Greenberg]

different with this stuff i don't know we do laundry really differently which we will circle back to but like my suitcase is huge it's fifty five pounds and i have to open it up downstairs take out each packing cube carry them up in shifts right you don't

[Ashley Hesseltine]

carry the suitcase upstairs no but like

[Raina Greenberg]

i carry it up in shifts which is even crazier at like ten pm yes no matter the hour of the day i unpack i put the stuff in the laundry if i don't do it the minute i get home i'm up at like six in the morning the next day and like i like the ritual of it i like that it's early in the morning i put everything away i do the laundry i put everything back where it's supposed to be put the suitcases back like it weighs on me i can feel the suitcase in my house i hate it

[Ashley Hesseltine]

i hate that it's sitting there right now but sometimes it just sits there for a couple days i just don't feel like dealing with it it's not

[Raina Greenberg]

an emergency i don't really need this

[Ashley Hesseltine]

but i'm i trip over it why am i doing this i stubbed my

[Raina Greenberg]

toe before i don't know some our our friend sally she was like i as a rule don't unpack for a week and she's the most type a person that i've ever met i just

[Ashley Hesseltine]

like all these differences like the fact that like i get into a hotel room and immediately unpack and settle in and my suitcase will be in my home for days on the floor i

[Raina Greenberg]

mean the way you do laundry also so different i mean i just learned about separating whites and colors the way i hang stuff to dry i just throw it over a railing wherever sometimes i hang it on a door i

[Ashley Hesseltine]

long stuff to dry that's an improvement

[Raina Greenberg]

after i shrunk a dollar three hundred pair of jeans twice yes and i had to buy it a third time i mean i'm exaggerating it's dollar two hundred fifty eight i was like never again yeah okay that was the raggedy

[Ashley Hesseltine]

sweatpants the sweatpants jeans yeah they shrink like crazy okay well let us know if you guys i don't even know what this says about us like some stuff is type a some stuff is type b you know what i'm loving is the tiktok trends of like my type b friend doing something so two that i've seen that send a chill down my spine were my type b friend painting her room and it's crazy she hasn't covered anything she's climbing on top of the dresser like painting she's

[Raina Greenberg]

like just pouring everything off that that's

[Ashley Hesseltine]

been me before and then doing her own nails on her wedding day actually

[Raina Greenberg]

i chill down my spine oh my

[Ashley Hesseltine]

god i can't imagine like i felt really rushed and there were certain things i could have gotten ahead of on my wedding day and it was a regret of mine and there was there was some things i was like i just should have thought of that before but the nails to be painting your nails oh my god and then like what if they smudge or they're not fully dry like i haven't painted my nails in so many years i get gel manicures but like wedding day you're painting your nails oh my god i

[Raina Greenberg]

think you did your wedding day right you were like i'm going to enjoy this day i can't i need everything else to be taken care of okay the last thing i will tell you about unpacking in a hotel room is i don't even know if you know this about me i don't have the maid service come in if my room looks like that so i'm not going to set a bunch of obstacles up around the room and make the room gross and be like you cleaned it up like i will keep the do not disturb sign on if you like somebody to come in every single day

[Ashley Hesseltine]

every single day that's why i don't care i don't care it is my best life that i leave the hotel in the morning and i go work and like clockwork the bed is made they don't do a lot like the room's pretty clean they make the bed they might replace some towels and take the trash if there's any trash and like that's it i think i'm a pretty quick turn on the housekeeping but i that is one of the reasons i'm in the hotel is for the

[Raina Greenberg]

housekeeping the first thing i do every morning is make my bed i mean immediately no matter how tired i am instantly make my bed hotel it'll never

[Ashley Hesseltine]

be made i didn't used to care and now i really care and like really nice places that do turn down

[Raina Greenberg]

service i'm like why are you in

[Ashley Hesseltine]

here oh my god you didn't come back after a full day and the bed's been made again

[Raina Greenberg]

i'll go three days without maid service and i know where you're paying day four you got to get that you run out of

[Ashley Hesseltine]

towels well again to your point like it's you're paying a premium to stay anywhere in new york for example okay

[Raina Greenberg]

i'm gonna tell you one final well this isn't like about travel but this was the impetus for me doing this okay i am so excited to announce this i put a privacy screen on my phone and i can't believe i've lived forty years rolling around just letting anybody look at my phone it's crazy it's so crazy and i so this guy that i've been traveling with for my tour he has a privacy screen on his phone and we see each other at the airport a lot i know and i'm like i wanna see what's on that phone i just i love seeing what's on everybody's phone but i've been like maybe i should get one like that is pretty dope i'm sitting next to a person i can't see what's on their phone what a nightmare yeah and then what a nightmare for me but then i was on the plane the other day landing at jfk i was so hungry so i'm like perusing grubhub to see what i should order and i'm looking at the menu for pura vida and i this woman next to me goes are you gonna order some food for when you land and i was like oh my

[Ashley Hesseltine]

god fucking look at this so weird none of your business let you do

[Raina Greenberg]

this and then i was like i i let you do this i let you have access to my phone still out of pocket it was a crazy thing to take a person read my texts over my shoulder in private like a normal person but i would just the run is over yep no one's gonna look at my phone i thought that it would make the screen dark it doesn't but if you turn the phone even at an eighty degree angle you cannot see it and what what are people doing rolling around letting people look at their phones i mean i

[Ashley Hesseltine]

am very mindful like and i will turn the brightness all the way down and i really am not just rolling around like texting all willy nilly looking at my phone like it's on my mind but it doesn't matter like someone can still really see it's crazy when someone's like for an example in the seat in front of you on an airplane and you can just read their

[Raina Greenberg]

texts you and i have people on

[Ashley Hesseltine]

flights yeah if you know the lore this was what two years ago and this guy sat next to me texting with his appeared to be ex head down for two and a half hours

[Raina Greenberg]

and ashley and i were riven and

[Ashley Hesseltine]

i only got like a few pieces and she had she was with somebody else like we we shared this whole story and like as much of it as we could he was so hot it was crazy i went to the

[Raina Greenberg]

bathroom he cried oh yeah went to

[Ashley Hesseltine]

the bathroom he came back all glassy

[Raina Greenberg]

eyed but i can't believe i just rolling around like this i just suggested other people well honestly i suggest no one else do this because i would like to look at your phone exactly

[Ashley Hesseltine]

i know why are you even promoting

[Raina Greenberg]

this it cost me seven dollars and i'm just like i feel like i'm a different version of me i'm just like you can't see this yeah okay

[Ashley Hesseltine]

so we have amy chan today such a wonderful episode for you guys about dating we've done breakup stuff with her before we can't wait to get into it but i do just want to take a moment to share that my special is coming out this week thursday it will premiere on youtube at eight pm eastern and it is going to be an interactive experience so i will be live in the chat as long as you guys are nice to me

[Raina Greenberg]

and i'll be in the chat if you guys aren't nice to her shashank's

[Ashley Hesseltine]

going to be kill you no you guys are the best so i'm just so excited and i've talked about this i don't need to talk about it too too much but i just really am excited for this premiere and to finally put it out into the world and have you guys see it and then it will be on prime video may first if you want to watch it that way in the us only but i really want you guys to watch it when it premieres and it's going to be really fun and really exciting and i have to tell you i got this dm and i'll try to read it without crying but i know you talk about it i'm going to cry and she said hi ashley i live at the delaware beaches shout out to delaware and there's a big group of girls here who would love to organize some sort of event where we could watch your special on the thirtieth and i feel like it obviously needs to be at the starboard i don't know if this is something you could help us organize but i think it would be super fun to promote it there like i just i guess i hadn't really considered that like you mentioned a couple weeks ago in the snack but like i hadn't considered people like making it an event like this and getting together to watch it and it just like brought tears my eyes and i if there was something official that happens at the star but i'll let you guys know or i will have already let you know but i'm going to look into it for them i'm like i want to be there

[Raina Greenberg]

i just i think about all the messages that we get constantly i'm a day one listener i've been listening to since twenty eighteen twenty nineteen and you guys have been together three years now and like i think about all the people that have been on the ride every single week from like the day one of your love story from like meeting him and him coming to your birthday and him becoming your i still remember like the episode you're like i don't know what to call him and i was like that's your boyfriend and then like you getting engaged and you moving in together and like all these special moments that like our audience has been along the ride for and i hope you guys have watched parties i hope you theme it i hope you guys wear your old wedding dresses and your bridesmaid dresses and theme it and make food and just like invite your friends over and have a special night and i think the world just needs like comedy and laughter and excitement and happiness so much and it's so funny it's so personal it's so special the way that you shot it is so beautiful and i'm a part of it there's some special parts and there's some footage in it i'm really excited for people to see and it's just it's really amazing so i hope you guys like make a big deal out of it and i hope you guys like instagram story and tag us and do a whole thing and it's just i remember when you and i during COVID were doing these virtual shows and people would have watch parties and that's where shashank first saw you the first time

[Ashley Hesseltine]

yeah he first saw me at the twenty twenty holiday show thank you i love you thanks for saying that i

[Raina Greenberg]

get really excited about it i didn't

[Ashley Hesseltine]

even say it's called here comes the bride so yes and it is like a wedding theme and you guys will see and like raina said that would be so special if you guys want to do theme parties and watch parties and we are only successful because of you guys we like are very aware like we have the best audience in the world we appreciate your support so much like we only get to do this because of you guys i only get to do the special because of you guys i only got to tour because of you guys rain only gets to tour because of you guys we only get to do the show and have two episodes a week and we're just so lucky and i really appreciate the support and i appreciate in advance and anything you guys want to do i'm so honored and humbled if you want to share it and you want to get getting those comments early and it will be successful because of you guys like it will it will only be successful because of this audience like the way they respond to it early on and whether that it takes off or not in certain types of ways like a lot of this i've done on my own and it has been challenging and i feel really accomplished and i just want to again like i've said get it out to as many people as possible but just our audience is you're the most important and so thank you and i can't wait for you guys to see it and we're just we're so grateful for your support so here comes the bride april thirtieth eight pm on youtube my youtube is youtube dot com ashleyhesseltine i hope you guys have already subscribed and signed up for the countdown and then again you can it will be on prime if you want to watch it that way as well on may first and share it and watch it with friends and you know i posted the trailer at this point and that's on my instagram at ash hess and i just you know i love you guys and thank you thank you guys love you yeah all right okay i guess we have

[Raina Greenberg]

to thank our partners thank our partners

[Ashley Hesseltine]

okay i'm telling you guys about aura frames we have mother's day coming up so this is the way to upgrade from whatever you usually get your mom let's say you get her flowers that's me i'll admit it i'm a flowers person so think differently this year and get mom something she is going to love so we love aura frames these are digital frames they have free unlimited it's storage you can preload photos before you gift them or ship them personalize your gift there's a beautiful gift box included premium packaging no price tag and you are going to set them up in your home and that there's going to be the photos you can add videos to it you can it edits some there's some editing features that just help it look perfect and lighting and cropping and all of that it is the top rated app reach number one in the app store on christmas day in twenty twenty five what a flex so these are incredible we all our families have them i mean my parents my brother and sister in law your families have them i mean my family

[Raina Greenberg]

is scattered all over la london pittsburgh and florida and so like i was at my sister in law's parents house the other day and like my brother and sister in law they have a baby and they're able to like upload all these photos of him all the time and i look at the app all the time to like see new photos of him it's just it's easy and quick and we all have a login and we can all send photos to it be careful which photos you guys upload but be careful of that but it just it's really nice to like even log in and see the new photos and it's just it's so nice my sister in law's parents keep in their kitchen it just cycles through

[Ashley Hesseltine]

these photos it's so cute i know

[Raina Greenberg]

and they're beautiful by the way the

[Ashley Hesseltine]

actual frame the actual frames different sizes of course whatever's going to fit best like my brother they have this huge one in their bedroom my parents have like the smaller size on their bookshelf and i'll just sit there watching it just like what's going to come up and which ones have i put in here which ones haven't i seen so again you can make mother's day special with or frames or of course any holiday any gifting occasion named number one by wirecutter you can save on the gifts moms love by visiting or frames dot com for a limited time listeners can get twenty five dollars off their bestselling carver mat frame with code gge that's a u r a frames dot com promo code gge support the show by mentioning us at checkout terms and

[Raina Greenberg]

conditions apply and revolve i mean i am decked out head to toe in revolve pretty much always and you and i have a wedding coming up in mexico and you just go on to revolve and you type in like what are you looking for so if you want like festival or wedding guests if you want like i typed in vacation in mexico and they'll curate sort of a shop for you and they have every brand every price point every accessory and shoes and it's all curated in a way that i really love it so you can see everything styled the way that actually like makes sense and they make recommendations for you like if you like these shorts it goes with these shoes and these accessories in this bag and i i mean it's my go to it's the number one place that i shop they have every brand that i love so my shorts are superdown my sandals are tieks and my watch is sendra people always ask me about this watch and i have it

[Ashley Hesseltine]

in silver too these are lovers and friends pants but i think they're sold out they might have like one size left i've had them for years but i have these in a couple different colors but lovers and friends love the brand and then super down is one of their house brands as well just went to a friend's fortieth birthday cocktail party got this set this like sheer cami and skirt from super down had it sent to the hotel with that free two day shipping and then i had a customer service issue where like this jacket had shipped and i was like oh can i grab them and get it shipped to new york instead of getting shipped to la and it had already shipped so they couldn't do it but they responded so quickly they wanted to try to make it work they just are responsive and quick and the best customer service so if you

[Raina Greenberg]

guys want like activewear if you want cute sets i'm shopping for wedding guest outfits if you wanna look elevated if you want statement pieces sets different textures colors i mean they really have everything the shipping and customer support are second to best so whether it's a big night out a wedding a trip or you just need something last minute that actually works revolve always has it go to revolve dot com gge to shop our faves and use the code gge for fifteen percent off your first order and definitely check out the festival shop while you're there fast shipping easy returns it just makes everything easier that's revolve dot com gge you can shop our faves and get fifteen percent off your first order offer ends may eleventh so

[Ashley Hesseltine]

don't miss out okay let's get into

[Raina Greenberg]

it okay guys we are very excited to welcome back a good friend of ours and a recurring guest she is a relationship coach who uses her science backed insights and expertise on love heartbreak and emotional resilience to encourage people to heal and date smarter she is the founder of renew breakup bootcamp and the author of the bestselling book breakup boot camp she has been featured in the new york times wall street journal good morning america today's show and more her book unsingle how to date smarter and create love that lasts is out tomorrow please welcome back to the show our good friend amy chan hi fourth time

[Ashley Hesseltine]

amy i know i know you are

[Raina Greenberg]

in a group of we think three

[Ashley Hesseltine]

people and we re released an episode

[Amy Chan]

i'm technically winning above all five or

[Ashley Hesseltine]

five episodes in the feed so welcome back and congrats thank you book number two yeah breakup boot camp was came out in twenty twenty twenty okay yeah okay yeah yeah yeah we had you on the first time before COVID yeah and then the book came out and so this is just round two we'd love it so much you really blew

[Raina Greenberg]

people's minds with like how to heal and how to get over breakup and i think just creating community in general with like how painful that experience is and so many people feel like i'm the only person going through this and i think what you did was like create this experience for so many people where you're like no a lot of people go through this and oh people just mentioned this episode to us time

[Ashley Hesseltine]

and time again yeah and so guys go back if you're dealing with any sort of breakup today we're kind of gonna bring you on the pre dating dating early days journey and then as that goes on breakups happen then they can revisit your other yeah exactly can you tell us what inspired this book

[Raina Greenberg]

yeah you were the breakup girly and now you're like no get into a

[Amy Chan]

relationship so i was helping all these people through their breakups and they would come to me like okay amy i'm over my ex like now what how do i date so i started helping people with dating and a lot of them were like i have dating fatigue i hate the apps dating sucks in my city and i started to help them pinpoint exactly what was blocking them from creating connection and it became very apparent there were some very clear patterns happening and instead of throwing out dating completely because it's exhausting it's like no like let's look at where you're not converting in a dating funnel and troubleshoot the right thing and then i had all these clients some who were single for like seven years get into a healthy relationship and i was like okay i've got something here wow yeah and

[Ashley Hesseltine]

you also have had your breakup boot camp retreat and you also personally coach

[Amy Chan]

women yeah women and men now women

[Ashley Hesseltine]

and men okay and is that where you find a lot of the inspiration of like here's what people are going

[Amy Chan]

through yeah so i run dating bootcamps as well now so it's like the same thing dating retreats helping people with like understanding patterns and building relational skills and even just like reading nonverbal body language all these basic things on flirting and connection that were not taught in school and then yeah helping people one on one go for from you know casual dating to committed and you are

[Ashley Hesseltine]

in a great relationship yourself i am

[Amy Chan]

we were just dating when i first went to the podcast at your apartment that was like i was like maybe a few weeks into my relationship with

[Raina Greenberg]

paul yeah yeah yeah just met him

[Ashley Hesseltine]

she was like we should have gone dinner with him in twenty twenty yeah

[Amy Chan]

that was paul that was paul and you guys were asking me i'm like i don't know yeah oh cool because

[Ashley Hesseltine]

then during COVID covid you guys yeah

[Amy Chan]

we were only dating for six months when covid hit okay yeah oh my

[Ashley Hesseltine]

god why am i like that i know this anyway we love paul yes he's wonderful and you guys live in vancouver now yeah yeah yeah okay so

[Raina Greenberg]

like when you're coaching people and they're like okay i feel like i'm healed i'm ready to date more something you bring up in the book is like people like okay how do i find more dates yeah and that you sort of like hit the pause button and you're like let's work on you a little bit first right and something you all say in the book is you could skip to chapter ten about how to attract more people be more magnetic maximize the amount of dates you go on but you really start with like let's work on you first before let's go on a date let's find more people yeah so let's talk about that

[Ashley Hesseltine]

a little bit and do people push back and they're like no i don't want i just want a date and then you're like no okay i want to hear how this goes yeah so

[Amy Chan]

a lot of the times people like match make me and like tell me how to get that date and i'm like before we do that like i could put the perfect person in front of you and there will be maybe you'll go on a few dates but it's gonna end up in the same result which is failure right and what's causing the exhaustion is people are working harder using the same strategy that doesn't work and they don't see that they're just spinning around so most people are only one to two shifts away from being able to create a healthy relationship okay i know that sounds wild it's really hope like that thing that they're doing on repeat that they're typically not aware of so like i'll just give you an example like i have a client turned friend they gave me permission by the way to talk about this a jokester completely like you know he would always be dating it and doing it for the plot and his friends would like expect these stories from him and so after a while he would just be dating and almost like doing things and turning it into a story knowing he would tell it later and he would never let anyone go beyond that surface right like that humor was his almost his crutch the door that attracts someone but he couldn't hold on to a connection and so we worked on like okay stop talking to your friends about it and then how can you actually reveal a little bit more about yourself even though it's so uncomfortable like that guy is living in colorado and he's married today oh okay it

[Raina Greenberg]

is just like seeing something through a different lens like i'm dating just for the plot i'm dating for the stories who cares cause something crazy might just happen and actually not giving somebody a chance and so i did some coaching with you and i did it inspired by another person that you coached who's our friend sally and she works with us on vibes only and she's been on our show and she is so wonderful and in a really healthy amazing partnership with a partner that we love and she told me how great it had been with you and how you'd helped her with this dating funnel which we'll talk about and i was like great i want to work with amy and you and i sat down and i was like great let's talk about how to find more dates and you were like let's pause and talk about like what's been going on with you and i spent ninety minutes crying oh

[Ashley Hesseltine]

my gosh yeah

[Raina Greenberg]

i was really upset about a situation that i was sort of coming out of and somebody who i thought i was really in love with who found somebody else and you were like i think your body feels like it's going through a breakup i think you need to like pause and think about like why are you choosing these people why do you whelm around in these things and i think it was really important to just stop me and say like why are we leaning to these patterns over and over again instead of just like let's maximize the amount of dates we go yeah yeah

[Ashley Hesseltine]

yeah do you see any common themes with women for example of the patterns that they are stuck in i think

[Amy Chan]

it really depends so something i'm seeing a lot with women right now is the over icking i think it's great that we're now like all about raising your standards and empowered women that's amazing but we've kind of almost overcorrected to the point where everything is an ick right like they wore sandals to the date what an ick actually that was

[Raina Greenberg]

me

[Amy Chan]

actually like i'm not proud of like back then i was like oh my gosh i'm so picky but like yeah i icked a guy because he wore sandals on our date and i never saw him again i was like ugh there was nothing wrong with that guy right it was just like a way of thinking of these things that actually don't matter if you were to go on more dates right so like someone wearing sandals on date one that's one hundred percent of your data points on that person if you had one hundred dates that would be one percent of your data points will you care that much if they're kind and loving and funny and caring like you won't

[Ashley Hesseltine]

i was with a friend my friend kelly who's also been on the show a couple times and she does coaching and tarot reading and she's just seen so many women who are really incredible where she's like i i have no notes i just it's tough and i don't have all the answers i'm not a licensed therapist to speak to certain things but her pattern is just like these wonderful women and a disparity in the wonderful men and that could just be a doomsday outlook but we will discuss kind of how to maximize today but are you seeing that too where

[Amy Chan]

you're kind of like ugh i am seeing that and i don't want to be like lower your standards no no no for sure it's just understanding the difference between your preferences and your deal breakers and i do find that some of my female clients they think that there is these deal breakers like the guy has to make this amount of money right like i had one who's like they have to have x million of net worth because i have you know a lot of money i'm like but is that really that or do you need someone who's generous and that you can have you know a good lifestyle together and she's like oh yeah you're right so like it's not really ten million dollars in net worth and so i just like i think that people need to men and women need to evaluate like what actually matters when it comes to a long term relationship and there is research that shows what doesn't which are shiny qualities like heights you know jawline if they like skiing and what actually does help a relationship become happy and stable which is how well do you handle conflict together how committed are they do you feel appreciated by them those are the things that are going to be the glue when that chemistry fades so let's talk about

[Raina Greenberg]

identifying your patterns because i like what you said earlier where you're like some people just like with the same information they just keep reimmersing themselves yeah it's just let's maximize more dates and i do think at some point that can work you can go on twenty five dates as the same person somebody will be happy with your brand of whatever it is and be with you that's you can do that but if people really want to work on themselves like how do we identify the patterns that

[Amy Chan]

exist so in the book i talk about the dating funnel there's five stages and on the very top stage is prospecting and that's lead generation i always say you should have three sources of lead generation so if you're doing online great but i would add something where you are doing something that you're actually interested in whether it's a run club or pottery whatever and you will see the same group of people over a period of time are you saying lead

[Ashley Hesseltine]

generation i am actually no i know

[Raina Greenberg]

i said sales jobs before it took

[Ashley Hesseltine]

me a minute because i was like i heard it but i was like i love that jargon i like how

[Raina Greenberg]

you talk about it as a business and we talked about on the show before like why do we not apply the same strategy to dating that we do to everything else it's so funny because like i feel like it was

[Ashley Hesseltine]

like ashley's going to need clarification lead

[Raina Greenberg]

gen i had lead gen meetings like every other day at amazon and groupon

[Ashley Hesseltine]

okay so i love this i have

[Amy Chan]

a marketing background so that's why i

[Ashley Hesseltine]

love it i love it so you

[Amy Chan]

want to do something where you'll see the same group of people over a period of time because there's something called the mirror exposure effect which explains how the more you see someone the more it will amplify the base feeling so you might meet someone and not feel like oh my gosh this is romantic but you're like oh i really enjoy talking to this person and over time it will amplify that connection which can turn romantic but if it's just one time you never give that a chance to grow also people who could be really great at dating they might not be good at the relationship part and vice versa right like so someone who's more of a wallflower maybe they're not extroverted and charismatic they might not wow you at a bar or on a first date but if you get to know them in a setting where they feel feel more at ease then you get to really get to know their

[Raina Greenberg]

character okay so i want to talk about that a little bit more they're good at dates charming versus like good at being in a relationship with you because i've definitely i mean i'm guilty of it too you go out with somebody and you're like i don't know but on paper they are like a good person you're like didn't show up great on the date but like when you think about people that are tremendously charming on a first date they are tremendously charming on every on everybody they're

[Ashley Hesseltine]

really great on they're great on dates yeah i think it's a red flag

[Amy Chan]

yeah and you think like oh no no it's because it's soulmate connection brought

[Ashley Hesseltine]

it out in him yeah exactly how

[Raina Greenberg]

do you tell people how do you

[Amy Chan]

filter for that here's the thing so okay we'll go into the other stages because this is how you filter so after prospecting is the next stage which is discovery that states one to two that's just a vibe check and i think the main issue people have i think especially women is because like they're like i don't have time to waste and so they're trying to be like are you going to be my future baby daddy and even the questions they ask are leading to either judge them or pedestal them it's too quick for the very first date when you're like there's a connection here and i think like five or above is worthwhile to go again then once you hit two dates we get into the evaluation stage and that states three to twenty or like three months and that's where you figure out how someone is and you can't fast forward that like everyone wants to know right away you can't like you get to know someone through your first fight by going on a weekend trip and the flights don't work like you see how someone has integrity and they follow through on what they say because like the first month it's very easy to hoodwink you mm hoodwink hoodwink

[Ashley Hesseltine]

is so funny ja rule tweeted that out about fyre fest festival he said i too was hoodwinked bamboozled and led astray i haven't heard hoodwinked since that famous tweet i mean some people would say even two months you know you really how it depends on how good you are at it right so here's

[Amy Chan]

also something interesting it's not in the book but it talks like people who have adhd the way that they date is also different so their reward pathways and circuitry is different so when they are excited about someone they almost want to blow their dopamine load all at once so they have the urge to text to see to call they'll do all of it right it's very exciting instead of drawing it out and allowing emotional connection and bonding and the things that create connection to happen then after two months they're like oh i'm like bored and then the other person has no idea like why are they not initiating why are they not trying anymore it's not that they're a bad person person but someone like that what i would coach them to do and like you need to draw it out you can't blow it all up blow your

[Ashley Hesseltine]

load yeah so how would you even advise them on that on drawing it

[Amy Chan]

out so someone like that who has a history of really rushing through romantic connection and getting everything they want really quickly i would be like even though you want to don't follow every urge you want to pace it out don't see them five times a week you know maybe two to three is good but you want to allow like the deeper connection connection to build so that when the you know excitement and the stimulation starts to wear down which it will there's something else there to hold

[Ashley Hesseltine]

that connection together yeah that's interesting that type of personality type i know okay what's that do we get through the

[Amy Chan]

funnel oh no okay so and so yeah you basically after evaluation stage you are trying to see if someone has you know i say four pillars for a healthy relationship that is there's chemistry there's compatibility meaning mutual core values and life vision right like if you want kids and they don't that's not compatible timing the perfect person at the wrong time is the wrong person and then the fourth is mutuality and this is a big one that people tend to miss two people equally invested in building the relationship it can't be you being the glue you over accommodating you can't have that right and so if all four are present and it it's good enough this is where you're like okay i'm gonna jump in to the stage four commitment and this is where a lot of people who have more avoidant tendencies get stuck because they want one hundred percent of the signals that oh my gosh this is the person because like this is gonna be forever like that's not gonna happen there's a point where it's good enough and to turn it great means diving in with two feet and going through conflict together and ups and downs and that's how a relationship becomes great and then the last stage is retention which is like a

[Ashley Hesseltine]

whole other book and retreat okay okay perfect yeah and get the book do the retreats do the things do all

[Raina Greenberg]

of it so you talk about mutuality it's interesting you did an entire chapter about the breadcrumb diet right so why did it feel important to talk about this in a whole chapter in terms of like what people accept and what's normal to them and what should it

[Amy Chan]

feel like yeah i talk in the book about this experience i had with this guy named ben and where basically we had like this one week romance and then afterwards it was like these intermittent rewards i'd see him for a day every couple of months he like send me a text from madagascar and i was like in love with this guy for three years and like all of those little rewards kept me hooked on him and like that's what i call the breadcrumb diet it's just enough to keep your attention and keep that tether but never enough to keep you full and it's it could be really wearing on your self worth and your self esteem and you're basically basically in a relationship with someone who's not in a relationship with you not at all

[Ashley Hesseltine]

and then do you feel like people romanticize that like the just well he called or he did this or i don't know you have like a fake love story in your head that it may work out eventually and then this is just that journey to get there and you almost find romance in something that's not romantic at all yeah and

[Amy Chan]

here's like the terrible thing about our psychology the more obstacles are in your way for the this love the more it makes you want it which sucks

[Ashley Hesseltine]

like why did god create us like

[Raina Greenberg]

that i think it's a pretty common

[Amy Chan]

experience you know like and so like the inconsistency actually makes you feel more hooked and then you start obsessing over them because your mind is trying to figure out this puzzle and get an answer and then when you get that instagram like it gives you some relief so then you start just chasing the relief from the pain versus trying to

[Raina Greenberg]

feel good so this definitely obviously comes from childhood for a lot of people and feeling like love was intermittently given to you and having to chase after love and you know it was earned and things like that and i would love to hear you speak on it but if that's the kind of person that you are if that's a familiar pattern to you how do we stop doing that i understand that it can be intoxicating for people to be like but when he does text me or he shows up it feels so good and if you haven't had a love that's consistent and intentional and that's all you've had i understand that feeling like a familiar pattern that you're like i got this yeah so how do we talk to people like about not being

[Amy Chan]

like that yeah yeah in sex love addicts anonymous they have this term called the qualifier and for me ben was a qualifier he's like that black hole it didn't matter if i was like okay i'm just gonna take five hours to respond to the text or distance myself anytime he was in my orbit digitally or physically i i would be drawn back in and the only way to stop it is to cut it off completely and so i had to do that for like two years and like now we're friends he doesn't know he's in the book but surprise surprise

[Raina Greenberg]

that's okay i had to tell multiple people i read about them in my

[Ashley Hesseltine]

comedy true i was like ah same

[Amy Chan]

thing this is about you but yeah when you're in this hot cold cycle the only way to get out of it is to stop and i think awareness is is the first step and then after okay how do you stop getting yourself in these situations it's why i have people do this dating experiment which is like really shifting your chemistry compass to go from like unavailability and anxiety and chaos to getting familiar with what stable and peaceful feels like when

[Ashley Hesseltine]

you say what stable and peaceful feels like internally or with a partner or

[Amy Chan]

both with a partner so you can't go from zero to one hundred you can't go from going for unavailable people to going to the most loving person because you'll find that loving person boring and you'll reject them right it's just like if you've never had chinese food i'm not gonna start you at duck feet right like i'm gonna start you at fried rice right and then once you like fried rice i'm gonna introduce i don't know green beans with garlic like we kind of like almost exposure therapy you to chinese food until it becomes more familiar same thing with availability and kindness what does it look like

[Ashley Hesseltine]

seeking them out for dates like how does it play out ideally walking away

[Raina Greenberg]

from people quicker when you sense it

[Amy Chan]

yeah so it's a combination of two so in the book you conduct your own dating experiment yeah the way you do it if you have to date nine people and you can't get into a relationship with any of them okay so without when i'm working with someone one on one i will make them date people totally outside their type so if they have a height requirement i'll make them date someone shorter than them if a lot of the guys who have an age requirement i'll make them date someone ten years older and what happens is when their homework is they can't get in a relationship with them they're like okay like i'll do it and the stakes are low stakes are low they're more present like i'm just gonna get to know this person love this what happens eighty percent of the time with my my one on one clients they end up getting into a relationship and they're like i'm with someone i would have never oh yeah shocker that was the goal yeah sally did that like sally met josh off on date number two i was like you can't get a relationship with him i'm like you can't because you jump in way too quickly so you have to keep going before you're like this is the one and then i act all like obsessive and committed before there's even a commitment and i made her continue doing the dating experiment we know we

[Ashley Hesseltine]

were with her we went to drinks with her when she first kind of met him and she was like i'm not allowed to move this forward and she she shared her whole journey but it's very funny also student no she's the best also shorter and she talks about she may not have picked him and she never went for super tall

[Raina Greenberg]

guys she went for ugly guys oh yeah so you made her date an attractive person she's like this is not

[Ashley Hesseltine]

my type great call like her i would say her ex was objectively unattractive but very tall and i'm saying he's

[Raina Greenberg]

also a bad person on the inside

[Ashley Hesseltine]

but but tall tall tall and ugly so she tall ugly bad person she

[Raina Greenberg]

went she young young old short hot he rich kid like just break it

[Amy Chan]

up he's a cheap rich kid which

[Ashley Hesseltine]

is the worst going back to you saying someone wants a rich person like we know someone who was really always choosing guys that had a bunch of money had a hamptons house this and that and were cheap like there's nothing worse yeah you want when someone broke especially at a certain age but but generous is where it's at yes for

[Raina Greenberg]

sure you said something in the book that really resonated with me about talking about people that are emotionally unavailable my mom said this to me a long time ago she said it doesn't matter why people do what they do understand why you're attracted to it but you framed it as like stop analyzing people's behavior and spending hours trying to figure out like why they did what they did because it tethers you to them

[Ashley Hesseltine]

even more oh interesting can you talk

[Raina Greenberg]

about that a little bit because i thought that was a really interesting way to frame that yeah so the more

[Amy Chan]

you obsess over someone and think about them which is why when they're hot and cold there's uncertainty which makes you do it more because the brain doesn't like open loops it's going to try to close it you will then be like well i'm thinking about this person so much it must be because i love them it must be because our connection is so strong so like that's how we rationalize the behavior of thinking

[Ashley Hesseltine]

about them all the time okay got

[Raina Greenberg]

it it's like spending time with them almost yeah like think about them and talk to your friends about them and break down the text messages and the interactions it does it allows you to like and masturbate about them by the way like it allows you to spend

[Ashley Hesseltine]

time with them yeah exactly okay so speaking of closing the loop i really just want to go back to the experiment and i just i love this so so much so i just want to continue to talk about a little more and the way that you have strategized this so people take the pressure off they're like i can date this short person older person whatever it is because i'm not allowed to get in a relationship with them anyway i mean i'm just kind of repeating what you said but it's so brilliant because otherwise we do this thing where we're like no but i can't be with that

[Raina Greenberg]

short guy or i can't be with

[Ashley Hesseltine]

that whatever it is that person with that job or that person of that i don't know if that culture when you go into every date thinking that could be my person that sets you up for failure so but dating a bunch of people casually that are so wildly different than what you've gone for before really i feel like obviously is what does the trick and it's just really brilliant so i just want to commend you on thank you what you've developed thank you the program you've developed the rehab program you developed okay so

[Raina Greenberg]

you tell people to cast a wide net have a bunch of different sources of lead gen and then do you have people they keep a spreadsheet i mean some people sally sally sally sally

[Ashley Hesseltine]

sally of course but just keep notes basically do you like post date is there part of like yeah you liked what you didn't like yeah so what

[Amy Chan]

we do is like i will give my client homework so they can't have another session with me until they do their homework which is usually like at least two more people and then we come back and we dissect like what went well what didn't what came up for you so that they're learning along the way and i had one client she's in the book she was an entrepreneur and she's like i can only date people who are entrepreneurs and she had a seven year relationship that she had a breakup with i helped her with that and then started helping her date she did the experiment and then i think like guy five was this guy who had a nine to five job he worked at the same company his entire life and she was like oh it was fun so i'd like keep going keep going and then after like eight dates she's like i don't know like he's not gonna get my schedule i'm like i'm so different and she wanted to end it with him i'm like stop it i'm like keep going keep going and like they've been together for five and a half years now and like he's such a he's complimentary to her chaos yes she was

[Ashley Hesseltine]

no offense to her she was so wrong she had the complete opposite outlook of what you should have where you want someone that's the balance not living the same type of crazy as you i think that's where people go so wrong that'd be like us being like i really need this like comedic podcast or entertainer who tours because they're the only they're the only one that's gonna get it that's what's the nightmare nightmare i want it i chose a staple person who like can kind of be along on the crazy life that we

[Raina Greenberg]

live i continue to choose comedians and that is why i'm single i continue to sleep with comedians who are just

[Ashley Hesseltine]

as fucked up you know when i tread lightly this is a client i'm sure she's a wonderful person but it's interesting that her mind was like that's the only person that'll get me i that's not true like other people will

[Raina Greenberg]

get you like how complex are you no i'm an entrepreneur you won't understand

[Ashley Hesseltine]

it's like i want someone that gets my sense of humor he has my same values and things like those are the non negotiables but a smart dude can understand my life after a few months of dating he gets it shashank picked up on it pretty quick so it's just but that's people get stuck in that i need someone that does the same thing so we work together and it's actually the complete opposite right

[Amy Chan]

they have their ideas of what they absolutely need right and like another one like she was saying as well like well he has a certain amount of vacation days how am i going to live a life like that right like he has a boss and like it's fine like it actually worked out okay and like if i just told her that on a logical level she could get it but she would never really get it which is why she had to do the experiment to be like oh actually this isn't so bad one

[Ashley Hesseltine]

hundred percent yeah i don't love that shashank has limited pto i mean we could be jet setting all the time but all right he's a normal thing it could be worse he could be

[Raina Greenberg]

a male comedian it could be so

[Ashley Hesseltine]

much worse stability's hot reina doesn't get it but one day she will i

[Raina Greenberg]

think i finally got the shit kicked out of me enough times this year famous last comedian i did send her one yesterday you thought then i was like oh no short so god damn

[Ashley Hesseltine]

it i would be like you can't

[Amy Chan]

date anyone funny he has to be like no jokes jokes no can't date

[Raina Greenberg]

him that's so funny what i really think about is somebody who needs to be professionally funny i don't need that i'll handle the jokes that's fine i

[Ashley Hesseltine]

got the jokes i got the money i got the jokes do you have another like a success story you love because these are just fascinating to me in terms of someone that ended up with someone they never would have picked

[Amy Chan]

i do i have one client and again they all agreed to allow me to talk about it but one she's like yeah like i always date these guys he's like they're so unavailable and then like the ones who like me i don't like them that's a common problem i was like okay like let's look at who your history and she was dating guys who were like ten out of ten of the attraction scale super successful tall and i'm like yeah like these guys are fun and they'll have sex with you but like there are troves of women who are gunning after this guy right so you can keep like competing with all of them and they don't have the attention span for you or you can just stop that and so like i had her do the dating experiment and one of the guys she had known this guy through like parties and stuff like that and one day she's like okay like went on a date with this guy and she's like you know it was like okay but like i really loved how he was like so open about his divorce and he just kept being such an open book that allowed me like to talk a lot about my stuff and like they keep going she's like a businesswoman so she's also very like doesn't let people in easily and so i think the fact that he was so open allowed her to be herself and like they're in a relationship today and like look he's like a teacher he's totally not like this jet setting guy from miami that she's used to and like but she's the star of the show and it's great it

[Raina Greenberg]

is true i mean you make like that list of like i want him to be a sir i want the height i want the money i want the income level i want a certain career i want a certain type of education everybody is going for that person

[Ashley Hesseltine]

you're like on the bachelor yeah like literally you're competing yeah so going back to this you're turned off by people who want you that's tough and i think we've all felt that and i think have overcome it too and that there's certainly like a neediness desperate that's just going to be an ick but how do you combat that truly you only want people who don't want you

[Amy Chan]

i mean that's a lot of therapy of like really understanding why an activated nervous system is what gives you thrills right like so some of my guy clients they date broken birds or people who come with a lot of chaos or drama and when i'm working with them i'm not like okay let's get you dating like another girl who's very like peaceful i'm like where in your life are you not living a full life because you're outsourcing your excitement to someone else so their chaos actually makes you feel alive that's the problem so that's like that foundational work before i even get them into dating it's like

[Raina Greenberg]

a savior complex yeah i think we assign that to women a lot but men really have this i know we

[Ashley Hesseltine]

never do we never talk about this as much because we also want to think like just women are wonderful and they don't need saved and all this stuff like but i've i see this with guy friends that like they always go for a like broken insecure woman they want to fix yeah yeah so

[Amy Chan]

like with some of those clients i'm working with them on like you got to go get guy friends like just because your college buddies who are not married like you can't just accept that's your friendship destiny go get some hobbies like i'll even make them go and do like flow state dancing and stuff and get into their body things that aren't achievement oriented like get them back into play like when they're so serious and analytical with work just get tap back into their human sides so that they are cultivating their aliveness and vitality from within versus like finding a girl and being like let me suck your vitality and like you know feel good

[Ashley Hesseltine]

about myself yeah my gosh i never thought about that just like a vampire people that like truly are just that's where they're getting their thrills yeah they're

[Amy Chan]

dating and they don't think that they think they're just being so nice right

[Ashley Hesseltine]

yeah get a hobby i love that i mean you probably see that with women too without anybody where their one priority in life is to find a partner and that is not what the right people are looking for people who are like healthy and stable want someone with a life and interests and hobbies and passions yeah and i think a

[Amy Chan]

lot of it's also when you don't have that if you don't have a full life your energy just is different right like the stakes are so high like you better like me because you like there's so much on you and people can feel that it just feels off i mean that's how i used to date like i was so good at getting the first date or the second date you know i knew all the tricks i was that person who's great at dating i couldn't hold a relationship i was way too needy i was like i just want to be your plus one and they could feel

[Ashley Hesseltine]

that energy yeah the desperation yeah so

[Raina Greenberg]

you tell people to have nine people in the funnel not at all times no no so like let's talk like how many people should we be dating like at once i like the idea that like you're not putting all of your eggs in this one basket but like you can't have nine baskets this

[Amy Chan]

process takes usually six months suitable guys six months to a year yeah in

[Ashley Hesseltine]

the country that there's that many in any city no no it's not possible

[Raina Greenberg]

maybe she's like date women also

[Ashley Hesseltine]

okay sorry no so how does this usually play out because nine feels i know people are listening like there's no way

[Amy Chan]

tell us how this i mean so if it's over a course of six months okay to a year i mean like you can do that that's the work of your time like you're doom scrolling for longer than that yeah and like that's the thing right like i i say in my book and in life like if there's anything meaningful you want to create whether it's a standup comedy career or a relationship you need to do one hundred percent of your fifty percent the other fifty percent is out of your control luck timing whatever but your one hundred percent of your fifty is like are you putting yourself out there if you are super busy and you have a startup and you don't have the time or the capacity for a relationship you probably shouldn't be dating that's okay right but just be realistic if you want a relationship then yes you're going to have to carve out time to do so and you might have to have your routine and your full life but you might have to be like nope like i'm going to spend five hours a week and that is going to be dedicated to

[Ashley Hesseltine]

dating okay and then when you are working with clients and they're doing it and they're going on the dates what would you say how they're finding these people like is it is it just such a mix of app versus whatever club they might be in versus versus being set up i mean are you just like i don't care do like

[Amy Chan]

i don't care just have three sources of lead generation and i'll give them ideas on that but i will also help them with what i call green lighting okay so green lighting is like a state of being in the world where your signals is like i'm friendly and approachable versus like if you come up to me i'm gonna fuck you up okay right like and and like being aware of what is the energy that you're emitting and the first thing i'll have people do is i'll have them do experiment for seven days they have to make eye contact with everyone they come across with on the street and they have to hold gaze and even when they're getting their coffee they have to make eye contact and like make that person feel like the most important person in the room and what will happen is people who are typically used to not being seen they'll start responding to you in a positive way and you're basically learning the art of eye contact which is the beginning of flirtation in a low stakes environment so that when you are at the party or the event you're just kind of naturally doing it okay yeah so when

[Raina Greenberg]

you talk about the psychology of being magnetic and that's like halfway through the book like is this where you kind of start like i was thinking about the person you said hadn't been in a relationship in seven years which is probably pretty rare but not completely uncommon and if somebody's like i don't even know what to do is that like an exercise you yeah i would work

[Amy Chan]

on the basics of like sometimes like i can't make eye contact like it it scares the out of me then i'm like okay we have to work on these things how do you actually have a conversation that is engaging so it's like a back and forth versus your tennis ball machine and you're shooting tennis balls at someone who hasn't picked

[Ashley Hesseltine]

up a racket are you sometimes talking to people and you're like oh i i get like do you have to tell people gently like you interrupt a lot or you dominate like you sometimes meet with clients and you're like oh if you're doing this on a date you're it's off putting yeah there's that

[Amy Chan]

there is this all like all the time i'll look at their dating pro i'm like this doesn't look like you right like you should actually look better in person than in your photo because the worst thing is it's disappointment and like the shock of disappointment is what someone doesn't bounce back from so like if you're bald you're bald but don't pretend that you're not and then you show up and you're bald like that gap where they're like ugh you're not

[Ashley Hesseltine]

gonna recover from that disappointment and also depending on how big the discrepancy is dishonesty right i feel like that's the number one way to make sure that you have a disappointing date and you never see that person again totally right

[Amy Chan]

but the over filtering of the face

[Ashley Hesseltine]

is dishonest yeah it is are there other ways to be magnetic we're so

[Amy Chan]

often concerned about what we're doing to be magnetic and to be likable but really it's about how you lead people feeling okay it's like people are really just in their own world so if you are the type of person who can ask questions and be present and again make that person feel like they're the most important person in the room and this goes across not even just in relationships this is a life skill of being actually curious about the person having them self disclose because that gives them dopamine that will make you more

[Ashley Hesseltine]

magnetic asking questions well i know reina because it's interesting because i feel like reina is so good at that with anybody like friends date partners you know but then what you fall for is when people like ask you questions because

[Raina Greenberg]

right it's my love language when somebody allows me to de escalate and they're asking you me all the questions i'm like how quickly can i get my

[Ashley Hesseltine]

clothes right the way you are and you are really curious and you really like to get to know people but like do you really enjoy it or do you actually just want to talk

[Raina Greenberg]

about yourself i really just want to talk about myself i mean i think strangers would say raina asks a lot of questions she's very curious and i think my closest friends would say raina will find any way to make this

[Ashley Hesseltine]

a balance it's not no you really are like the best best listener the best friend you know but then i think sometimes it makes people feel close to you too soon even women you know like random this one night this girl's night we met all these girls raining this one were like locked in i was like oh my gosh never gonna leave you alone she thinks you're her best friend now but it's better

[Amy Chan]

to have that skill and then know how to turn it off and have the boundary than not have it right like my party trick when i'm like at a at a party i'm like oh like i can't i'll just like talk to people and i'll just like tell me more and then like they love me i'm like it like it's an hour i gotta go now i

[Raina Greenberg]

actually hate you yeah any other tips for i do have another question but any other tips for being more magnetic i think this is great asking questions make good eye contact there's this really

[Amy Chan]

interesting study that they did in the uk where they had all these cameras at a bar and they wanted to see like who makes the first move and what they found was it was actually the woman that made the first move so before a guy would approach her she would make an average of i believe it was thirteen direct and indirect glances at the guy that guy would make an average of seven space maximization movements while checking to see if she was looking and so this is like stretching your arms patting your buddy's back to show where you are in the social hierarchy and if she noticed and there was enough eye plate then he would physically approach her and they've done this study in different bar settings and what they found it's not the most beautiful physically attractive woman that gets approached the most it's the one who seems the most approachable okay so human beings very quickly in a millisecond when they're meeting a stranger they are seeing is this person safe meaning are they going to reject me or are they dangerous and is this person a winner or a loser those are the two things that are subconsciously they are picking up so if you are giving out signals of like why am i here like oh my god yeah no one will come up to you and if

[Ashley Hesseltine]

they do it's the wrong type of person yeah you know like no one's like man that girl looks like a i'm gonna want to talk to her that's like a guy with like a shame kink right like who wants to be rejected okay so but what are we talking body language like at the

[Amy Chan]

bar open body language being able to make eye contact yeah so there's like three different types of gazes so basically when you walk into say like a bar or a party there's like the room encompassing glance where you kind of like serving the land be like is there anyone and then then if you see someone you basically you kind of look like these kind of direct and indirect glances it's pretty short and you're just trying to see if they'll catch your attention once you notice like oh they're kind of looking at me back then you want to do the longer glance so you kind of hold eye contact and like bonus points if you can hold eye contact and then have a slow earned smile okay and it activates something in the other person subconsciously of like oh my gosh like i'm special this gaze is for me and the smile is for me and that will start creating the interest for someone to want to talk to you okay

[Ashley Hesseltine]

i i was interested in the stuff you said guys are doing like they're just what just kind of you see

[Amy Chan]

it all when you go out you'll start seeing that yeah they will put their hands here okay as well they'll make themselves look bigger yeah i've gone into like business meetings with a guy and like he's just trying to do i'm like like dude i know body language i know what you're trying to do you're power moving me i'm like

[Raina Greenberg]

please putting their arms behind their head

[Ashley Hesseltine]

yeah like real peacocking but you're saying in the bar it might mean they're interested if they're looking back and forth

[Amy Chan]

there's a reason why they're trying to do it right like that is interest of like like see me like i'm

[Ashley Hesseltine]

mad yeah yeah okay i mean i

[Raina Greenberg]

wish you could like be on these dates and like watch because i think some people think they're flirting but they're really nagging and i a lot of people revert like men say does all the time the number one thing i hate is when someone just kind of like pokes at me and negs me and i think people think they're being funny and playful or hard to get and the advice is men like bitches and so i think that like it's bad toxic advice but people kind of lean into it do people tell you like i don't know what to talk about when somebody comes over to me or are you like i can't do

[Amy Chan]

everything for you i mean i like look i have like some questions that allow people to have in their back pocket to get a conversation from like how's the weather to something a bit deeper and again like you don't want to go from zero to one hundred there's a reason why there's small talk like oh like have you been to this bar before what's your favorite drink to something a little bit deeper than that right you don't want to like divulge your trauma like on dates one when you've met someone for thirty minutes

[Ashley Hesseltine]

yeah i mean i love to comment on what's happening in the room i mean if you're at the bar i mean if there's a long line like something you can be funny about without sounding like negative and complaining but like like just observational and then at a party i think how do you know the host things like that when you answer give something they can latch on to we went to college together no too vague what college where like anything i always think like think of the way you respond is there any follow up question they could ask i don't know i just think that's like the details you can pepper in that someone can grab onto yeah and in the

[Amy Chan]

book i give a template for open door closed door questions it's like how do you actually do that so okay

[Ashley Hesseltine]

yeah i wrote this quote down from you about a paradigm shift you said you invite the reader to consider what if instead of viewing each dating experience as a means to an end you saw it as part of the grander journey and essentially just bad dates even failed connections as stepping stones every date every interaction gives you insight into your desires your priorities and how to connect with others some people enter our lives to show us what we don't want which is just as important as discovering what we do and i think that's really important because it's so easy to go on a handful of bad days a ten a dozen nine and just be like this is miserable but it's like but that's you're on the journey yeah what was the goal here to meet your husband in high school yeah you know like if not you have to do the thing yeah so i think that's like a great shift that you discuss and yeah and i know

[Amy Chan]

it's hard but like getting jaded and then grouchy and then being like oh my god dating just sucks like it's impossible possible the story will not serve you for the goal that you want and you can believe it and that's fine but if you actually want a relationship you need to do all the work for like mental workout to keep yourself in a positive frame of mind

[Ashley Hesseltine]

well how do you balance that i'm jaded and cynical and i've been on ten terrible dates and you almost feel silly to get excited you know not like oh my god tonight i'm going to meet my husband i think we're all like most of us especially a certain age or not you know we're a little more realistic than that but i do think about a woman for example that is before you even get to the date or meeting the person you're in a really negative mindset but you don't want to do this like tonight could be the night you know and how do you find that happy

[Amy Chan]

medium so there's some science behind this in the book it's like a predate priming ritual okay this is really important so right now what's happening is like our dopamine reward circuits are like almost getting exhausted right like so before a date if we're like scrolling or watching porn we're doing all these things like almost like blowing our dopamine low and then we go on the day and we're like i feel nothing okay so what you want to do before the date you want to set aside some time like thirty minutes to an hour and if you actually do something that cultivates awe you can do this by even watching a video of the northern lights or listening to a song that really moves you and just getting the presence of like oh my gosh i'm in the presence of something bigger than myself it actually will make you more open more connected to others and so you want to get yourself in that state so you're actually setting yourself up for success it's like an athlete before they are about to go and do a race you don't just like you know watch tv like smoke weed and then you go on your ski race like you do the thing to prep you for the best chances of success the same thing goes for dating i

[Ashley Hesseltine]

love that and even if you go straight from a stressful day at work straight to the date that's not that great i mean there just needs to be a transitional period or you're just bringing it into the date but this is just not this is all of us yeah being in a bad mood and taking it on someone else yeah

[Amy Chan]

i remember on the on the way to my first date with paul i was in the uber and i'm like i'm just gonna do it really differently because i used to be that person who asked questions like oh like what area do you live in like tribeca lean in right gowanus lean out

[Ashley Hesseltine]

that's

[Amy Chan]

so funny and i'm like i'm just gonna have fun tonight like i'm just gonna have fun and have a good time and this date's gonna go well i'm just gonna have a good time and i really just set that intention and i do think that it primed me and it helped me have a fun time and when i first met paul our first hour we had a drink and i wasn't like oh my god what a hot guy i wanna be with him i was like oh this is fun yeah this is cool it's a cool conversation he's like hey do you wanna grab a bite i'm like oh okay let's go and then after a bite like oh do you wanna grab dessert oh okay let's go and then we just kind of throughout the night the connection started to grow

[Raina Greenberg]

i like not going into it with that attitude i think that it is really hard to not go into it especially when you're dating so much because so much online is about how bad dating is i mean there couldn't be more articles about how terrible men are and how women are single and the dating pool is awful and especially when you go on three or four bad dates you're just like i i guess i'll fucking do this but it's not gonna be fun i like the idea of like like disconnecting just saying to yourself i'm just gonna have fun i'm not gonna like bring all this baggage into it it's hard it's easier said

[Amy Chan]

than done yeah for sure well i

[Ashley Hesseltine]

think that's how the experiment plays into it too because you are supposed to go into it that's not my purse i'm not even allowed to date them right now you know this is just casual low stakes so that helps too and if you're going on a date every night of the week three nights i can't imagine but i guess some people are doing that i mean maybe you're doing too much right you know like if you're genuinely fatigued not even because of the people you're dating just because of the time commitment and your schedule you can change that right i you don't want to go into that either who was it a friend recently went out with a guy and like he just kept talking about how tired he was like leaning up to it and she was like do you not

[Raina Greenberg]

want to go like yeah this a friend of ours he he like moved the date which she was like that's fine we can do it another night it's a second date it's not that big of a deal but then all day was like i'm so tired then he told her he was hungover and she was like i don't really she says anything that like made me last she said i don't really want to give the impression that i'm so chill because i'm not and so i don't really want to like keep hearing this stuff from him i don't know what to say to him and i say to him if you don't feel good let's reschedule i don't stop waterboarding me with how you don't feel how you feel bad i don't i'm not trying to hear this and again we talked

[Ashley Hesseltine]

about like maybe he was just like well she's a of part and i'm relating on being hungover but like at

[Raina Greenberg]

a certain age showing interest in what

[Ashley Hesseltine]

she cares about she does yeah like but i i joked about this because my first date which i was unclear if it was even a date i didn't know what it was with my ex like ten years ago now at this point we were meeting for lunch such a weird story again i was like is this is are we networking or what is what he told me he was hungover and i remember being on the way to meet him and being like do you want to reschedule like what are you i don't okay why are you sharing this like it's different if you get there and you're upbeat and you're like i gotta be honest last night was was a late night or something like that but to preface it no it's crazy you know

[Raina Greenberg]

what it kind of reminds me of is people that put on their dating app profile that like they think it's stupid to have a dating app profile they're like i can't believe i'm gonna find somebody on here i'm just like people have you never seen this before i feel like i've seen this from people that are just like if you have a question just ask me i can't believe i'm on a dating app you're just like

[Amy Chan]

yeah like you're not supposed to on dating apps lead with what you don't want right like yeah yeah you can just use ai reframe what you don't want into a positive

[Ashley Hesseltine]

statement that's so true is that something you need to you work with clients like or do you pick up on like an overall cynicism negativity that needs

[Raina Greenberg]

to be shifted yeah so like i'll

[Amy Chan]

pick out the pattern like it's human beings are pretty predictable so i can tell what people's thinking things are yeah right like i have one client i'm like oh like you keep shooting way too low and that's why you date these people that treat you like crap because internally you don't actually see how you are on the outside like you you're operating from like a low self esteem world and like her experiment was i'm like you need to go and approach a guy that you think is outside of your league oh right and then i'll have another client i'm like you are not interested in people like you're the type of person who's like looking over the shoulder like this was a friend turned client i'm like you don't ask questions you don't care and so we worked on that first and it actually changed her relationship even with her employees and like she's a likable person now i'm like before i'm like

[Ashley Hesseltine]

you weren't that likable yeah i think

[Raina Greenberg]

that's somebody needs to tell you well

[Amy Chan]

i'm direct like i'm not gonna sugarcoat be like oh my god you're amazing i'm like there's a thing that you're doing and it's not working it's not because you're flawed as a human being it's a behavior or a habit that you've picked up and you reinforced over

[Ashley Hesseltine]

and over again so men not asking questions on dates this is a epidemic

[Amy Chan]

it's men and women of course no

[Ashley Hesseltine]

of course yeah yeah i agree but we hear from women so with those guys and women too i guess is is there hope or is this a person who genuinely has no curiosity or interest in other people so you have

[Amy Chan]

to be able to to discern if someone's just being arrogant and like you know having their own podcast episode like while they're going on a date with you or are they nervous because what happens is sometimes guys who are not good at dating they're like trying to impress you so they're like oh like here are my successes like my trophies and they think that they're doing that to make you like them so you just you have to be able to you use your intuition to discern what type of person it is okay got

[Ashley Hesseltine]

it and you said when we first started this conversation that there's like most people are one to two shifts away from just being in a better place overall could those be a multitude of things a multitude depending on what i

[Amy Chan]

would say a big common one though it is who they're choosing okay so there's a reason why they're choosing a certain emotional experience wrapped up in different

[Ashley Hesseltine]

packages okay yeah great this flew by

[Raina Greenberg]

i know yeah we could talk to you forever but i really really encourage people to buy this book and i was saying to you before we started recording ashley and i read so many books about dating and relationships and sometimes i see the same advice recycled over and over again and this is a really great actionable book about how to first start with yourself and then start dating and just challenge yourself to like break these patterns and find better people and you've just done such a great

[Ashley Hesseltine]

job i know i mean you really you started this this breakup boot camp and now this is this i like the term boot camp it doesn't have to be intimidating or scary but you're like you gotta do the work and if you're not willing to this isn't for you take it or don't you know so i just love your outlook and these programs strategies everything you've developed on your own thank you so yeah you're just wonderful and we of course encourage everyone to get the book tomorrow

[Raina Greenberg]

yes the book's out tomorrow and tell everybody where they can find you everywhere

[Amy Chan]

yeah i'm at missamychan and i actually have like a first date assessment and partnership formula on my website so missamychen dot com unsingle amazing okay and you

[Ashley Hesseltine]

guys know where to find us girls gotta eat dot com girls gotta podcast on instagram and tiktok i am ash hess on instagram and tiktok raina is raina dot greenberg raina greenberg dot com for tour tickets my special will debut this thursday i already mentioned this of course a million times but just to leave you guys with that so you can watch it live interactive thursday eight pm eastern time on youtube link is in my bio link's been everywhere at this point you've seen it and then if you want to watch it on may first it will be on prime video so yay yeah and of course you can watch full video of our episodes on spotify and youtube and we'll see you thursday have a good week

[Raina Greenberg]

guys bye ryan reynolds here from mint

[Amy Chan]

mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much please for the love of everything good in this world stop with mint you can get premium wireless for just fifteen a month of course if you enjoy overpaying no judgments but that's weird okay one judgment anyway give it a try at mintmobile

[Ashley Hesseltine]

dot com switch upfront payment of forty five for three month plan equivalent to fifteen per month required intro rate first three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra see full terms at mintmobile dot com