The Man Who Made Me Rethink My Marriage with Amber Rae

Summary

Girls Gotta Eat — “The Man Who Made Me Rethink My Marriage” with Amber Rae

Podcast: Girls Gotta Eat
Host: Dear Media
Episode Date: October 20, 2025
Guest: Amber Rae
Theme: Challenging expectations in love, the bravery of self-liberation in relationships, and Amber Rae’s personal journey from a “good on paper” marriage to finding authentic, passionate love.

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Episode Overview

This episode features author and speaker Amber Rae, whose new memoir Loveable: One Woman’s Path from Good to Free chronicles her deeply personal journey out of a safe, stable-but-unfulfilling marriage and into a life—and love—that’s truly her own. Hosts Ashley Hesseltine and Raina Greenberg dig into the nuanced realities of “good enough” relationships, self-abandonment, the courage to choose yourself (even when it means disappointing others), and how Amber’s story is resonating with women everywhere. Throughout, the signature GGE banter blends humor, vulnerability, and honest reflection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Amber’s Marriage and the “Good on Paper” Trap

• Amber’s Backstory:
  • Married for nine years to her “best friend”—a relationship that outwardly seemed positive but lacked sexual and emotional intimacy.
  • “We were best friends. We were never really romantic partners, had a sexless relationship, but we were good friends and we got along and there were things that worked. And I think I was just like, this could be enough.” — Amber Rae [35:14]
• Suppressing Intuition:
  • Ignored the inner voice warning her things weren’t right. Shared about walking down the aisle already doubting the marriage’s longevity.
  • “I walked down the aisle thinking, I’m not sure how long this is gonna last, but maybe we’ll throw a great party.” — Amber Rae [36:43]

2. The Catalyst: Meeting “Her Person”

• Transformational Encounter:
  • Four years ago, while married, Amber met John by chance and immediately sensed an undeniable connection—she describes it as “knowing he’s your person.”
  • Honest with her then-husband about feeling this soul connection.
  • “It was the moment that they walked toward us and I connected eyes with him that I had this kind of feeling of hello again, and felt like I was home.” — Amber Rae [51:47]

3. Self-Abandonment and People Pleasing

• Emotional Patterns from Childhood:
  • Grew up with trauma and learned to avoid her own needs in favor of keeping the peace.
  • “I was constantly hypervigilant around everyone’s okayness. And if I can maintain harmony, then I can maintain okayness ... I didn’t even realize I was self-abandoning, you know, when I was in it.” — Amber Rae [50:00]
• Societal Pressures:
  • Both Amber and the hosts discuss how women often stay in “good enough” relationships out of fear or obligation, feeling that they “should” be grateful for stability even when unfulfilled.
  • “The good on paper guy is almost harder to leave because it’s like, nothing’s wrong.” — Amber Rae [40:17]
  • “Why am I afraid of disappointing others but so willing to disappoint myself?” — Amber Rae [49:26]

4. Honesty, Therapy, and Facing the Truth

• Denial in Couples Therapy:
  • Amber and her ex went to therapy but painted a rosy picture, avoiding discussing their lack of intimacy, essentially using therapy to convince themselves everything was fine.
  • “We were in this deep. We’ve, you know, our communities are now we’re in business together. It was like we were too far. How could we, like, blow it all up now?” — Amber Rae [47:55]

5. Deciding to Leave, Facing Judgment, and Self-Liberation

• The Decision:
  • The realization that staying was harder than leaving; preparing herself to be seen as “selfish.”
  • “I am no longer going to abandon myself. I am no longer going to disappoint myself so that I don’t disappoint others. And I am going to have to tolerate the discomfort of other people being mad at me and of other people not approving of my choices. And, like, that’s okay.” — Amber Rae [72:37]
• Judgment from Others:
  • Some friends supported her; others were highly judgmental or left her life entirely.
  • “I’ve probably lost like a dozen relationships.” — Amber Rae [70:05]
  • Both Amber and the hosts stress that projection and fear drive much of the judgment women face when breaking free from comfortable but stagnant partnerships.

6. Aftermath, Healing, and Building a New Relationship

• Relief Over Grief:
  • Amber grieved her marriage while still in it; the ending brought empowerment, not sadness.
  • “I wasn’t filled with grief. I was filled with relief because I finally honored myself and did the thing that, like, I knew I needed to do.” — Amber Rae [67:45]
• New Relationship (With John):
  • Explored fears around re-learning intimacy and sexuality after a long sexless marriage; humor and vulnerability in discussing rediscovering passion.
  • “I felt like a 16 year old girl and I was like, oh God, if I like can’t measure up or like I felt like we were equals in a lot of areas of our life. But like if I can’t measure up in the bedroom, will he leave me?” — Amber Rae [76:24]
• Transformation:
  • No longer seeking approval or harmony at her own expense. Creative work and personal relationships now come from a place of authenticity and self-knowledge.
  • “My gaze, I feel like is less outward and it’s more inward.” — Amber Rae [75:09]

7. Universal Messages from Amber’s Story

• Not Just a Love Story:
  • The book’s deeper focus is on self-love and personal liberation, not simply romantic fulfillment.
  • “Yes, this is a story of me leaving my marriage, but I think it’s more than that. It’s, you know, more than a love story. It’s a self-love and self-liberation story.” — Amber Rae [78:05]
• Encouragement to Listeners:
  • Emphasizes trusting your own inner knowing, making brave choices even in the face of judgment, and understanding that your life belongs to you.
  • “Maybe in another life. There is no other life. So, like, grab hold of this one and make the brave choice and do the thing that’s right for you.” — Amber Rae [78:38]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Amber on her initial intuition:
  • “So four years ago, while married, I looked into the eyes of a stranger and I had this knowing feeling of he’s your person.” [00:00]
• On leaving “good enough” for what’s true:
  • “Why am I afraid of disappointing others but so willing to disappoint myself?” — Amber Rae [49:26]
• On judgment:
  • “It tells me much more about their pain than it does about my own story. But … I didn’t need anyone to get it, because I thought that mattered. And I Can’t.” — Amber Rae [69:15]
• Hosts’ reflections:
  • “Why would you want to be with someone who isn’t happy with you or doesn’t want to be with you?” — Ashley Hesseltine [71:34]
• On sexual self-discovery:
  • “I was like, what do I do with this penis? And she’s like, you grab it.” — Amber Rae [76:29]
• Amber’s ultimate wish for readers:
  • “I want people to, you know, make the choices that are right and true for them ... grab hold of this one and make the brave choice and do the thing that’s right for you. Even if people are going to have feelings about it. Because at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is how you feel about your life.” — Amber Rae [78:56]

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Essential Timestamps

• Amber’s “knowing” at meeting John: [00:00], [35:14], [51:47]
• Wedding day doubts: [36:43]
• Suppressing self in marriage: [49:26]–[50:00]
• On losing friendships through transition: [70:05]
• Discovering self after divorce: [67:45], [75:09]
• Sexual rediscovery and new relationship: [76:24]–[77:56]
• Universal takeaways: [78:05]–[78:56]

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Tone and Takeaways

The tone is deeply candid and relatable—equal parts humor and raw honesty, with the hosts echoing themes from their own lives and sharing collective wisdom from years of listener correspondence. The atmosphere is supportive, affirming, and empowering, with plenty of laughter and a little irreverence. Amber’s story gives permission, as one host says, “to be a little selfish in the name of self-love,” and reminds listeners that “your happiness belongs to you.”

FINAL MESSAGE:
Amber Rae’s journey challenges long-held beliefs about obligation and fulfillment in relationships. Her story is an invitation to trust your desires, risk disappointment, and create a life that’s not just “good on paper”—but actually good for you.

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Find Amber Rae’s book, Loveable, everywhere books are sold, and connect with her at heyamberrae on Instagram or amberrae.com.

Transcript

[Amber Rae]

So four years ago, while married, I looked into the eyes of a stranger and I had this knowing feeling of he's your person.

[Ashley Hess]

This podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Raina Greenberg]

Hi, guys.

[Ashley Hess]

Hi, guys.

[Raina Greenberg]

Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta eat.

[Ashley Hess]

Welcome back. Hopefully we're coming off an Eagles win.

[Raina Greenberg]

Maybe.

[Ashley Hess]

Maybe. We are playing the Vikings.

[Raina Greenberg]

Steelers beat the Vikings. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Thank you. And while we're here, thank you guys for coming out to my Minneapolis shows. I had a great time, Raina. I just hated being there without you. I love those people so much.

[Raina Greenberg]

I love Minneapolis, Love performing Minneapolis.

[Ashley Hess]

Truly the best.

[Raina Greenberg]

You have been breadcrumbing living in certain places, but Minneapolis, you hard were like, I will live here.

[Ashley Hess]

And I was like, I was so safe there.

[Raina Greenberg]

We will build sets in different cities and you won't know we're in the same cities. You'll be in Minneapolis. I'll be in New York.

[Ashley Hess]

I. I just. I told that when I got on stage, I was like, I feel so safe, you guys. It's giving Canada.

[Raina Greenberg]

We're close. We're close.

[Ashley Hess]

We can get up there if we need to escape. But it just. It's such a great city. It's like a perfect city.

[Raina Greenberg]

Everyone's nice.

[Ashley Hess]

I'll die on this hill.

[Raina Greenberg]

Everyone's nice. Tons of bridges. You love bridges.

[Ashley Hess]

The food is good.

[Raina Greenberg]

Winters are rough.

[Ashley Hess]

It's okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay.

[Ashley Hess]

Just be cuddled up.

[Raina Greenberg]

Now you have your pocket.

[Ashley Hess]

Anyway, I hope we fucking annihilated the Vikings. We'll remove this if we didn't. Our editor loves this. She loves this about me. That Sunday, we might have to do a cut.

[Raina Greenberg]

The Steelers doing great. Our geriatric quarters quarterback that I've made fun of. You doing great. Doing great.

[Ashley Hess]

Anyway, go Birds. Go Steelers, I guess. Yeah. You know, make a Pennsylvania team.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, it'll be a PA super bowl either way.

[Ashley Hess]

It's a PA podcast anyways.

[Raina Greenberg]

All right, let's thank some of our partners and then we'll jump right into it. Thanks to Squarespace. Get a free [e-mail] GGE and use the code GGE for 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. And better help get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com GGE and function. Our first 1000 listeners get a 100 credit towards your membership at function health.com GGE or use code GGE100.

[Ashley Hess]

And thank you to Smart mouth. Get a special discount on your next Smart mouth [e-mail] GGE and thank you to Rocket Money. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions@rocket money.com GGE and you know what it is? Saks Fifth Avenue.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know what to do.

[Ashley Hess]

Head to Saks Fifth Avenue or Saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style. Cheers. We have our matching chef rose mugs. Well, 4pm Latte. We talked about this Thursday. If you guys missed the snack.

[Raina Greenberg]

Ashley bought me a little gift on TikTok.

[Ashley Hess]

My first TikTok shop purchase ever. And I. No regrets.

[Raina Greenberg]

You like to buy gifts for people. You do.

[Amber Rae]

You're.

[Raina Greenberg]

You're gifty. I'm not gifty.

[Ashley Hess]

I guess I see things sometimes and I think about people and I'm like, I have to get. Give them that. It'll be so funny, you know? But we have people in our lives that are such that high level of thoughtful gifting. And I'm just like, I could never.

[Raina Greenberg]

A lot of our LA friends, it's a real LA thing. Kate and Chad were on our show and then they immediately sent us flowers to say thank you.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, my gosh.

[Raina Greenberg]

Sally was on our show and sent us flowers. I would never think to do that.

[Ashley Hess]

The flowers I got this week, and I had to, like, leave them in hotel rooms.

[Raina Greenberg]

So I was gonna bring you flowers to your special taping, but I was like, what is she gonna do with these?

[Ashley Hess]

So I was in New York starting Wednesday. I went to Minneapolis Tuesday again. It was incredible. Thank you guys for coming out, like, last two shows. A late show Tuesday. I'm just. I'm humbled beyond belief. And we'll get to more of it. But I got to New York Wednesday. My college girlfriend sent me flowers for the special. Like, Wednesday, Wednesday.

[Raina Greenberg]

They messaged me, asking me, when you get there.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. So I had them to, like, look at and be in the room. But then my fiance brought flowers to the special, and then his sister sent flowers on special day. They were gorgeous. So that was Saturday. We left Sunday morning. We brought them.

[Raina Greenberg]

Put him in the car.

[Ashley Hess]

We took a car up there. Put him in the fucking car. Just to bring him to the hotel room in Boston because, like, you don't want to throw them out.

[Raina Greenberg]

What else am I going to do with him? I bring him in the car. Yeah, yeah. I was going to bring you flowers.

[Ashley Hess]

I was like, no, she didn't do it. No, it's okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. So it's Monday. We're just getting back from your third bachelorette party in Vegas. I mean, it is my favorite way to do Vegas. We're recording this ahead of time, but, like, club, another club. Like, it is just we have like dinner reservations, we have drinks, we have club. We're going to see Chippendales. Like, I am so, so excited. 24 hours in Vegas. I don't even. I don't need more than that. 18 hours in Vegas. I need one night.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm glad we pulled it off, hopefully. Who's to say we are recording ahead of time and we can talk more about it next week. But as of now, the itinerary is to get there Saturday midday. Stay at the Cosmo. We love the Cosmo. That's where we perform. That's where we kicked off our 2024 tour on September 21st. Do you remember the 21st night of September 2024? And just go to the pool a little bit and then do drinks in that gorgeous chandelier bar in the Cosmo. I think. Is it called the chandelier bar?

[Raina Greenberg]

I think it is called Chandelier Bar.

[Ashley Hess]

And then dinner at Katch. We love a Catch.

[Raina Greenberg]

I love Catch.

[Ashley Hess]

My parents, I put my whole family at Catch before the special.

[Raina Greenberg]

I told you something, I like Catch.

[Ashley Hess]

It's always good. We did your birthday catch. We love it.

[Raina Greenberg]

I know it's like a clubstarant, but like, the food's always good, the service is good. Yeah, it's call me bridge and tunnel. I don't care.

[Ashley Hess]

Right?

[Raina Greenberg]

So.

[Ashley Hess]

And then straight to Chippendales, which is an honor. I mean, we had the Chippendales at our Vegas show and when we were there, they were like, can you guys come to the show? And we did not have time. And so I kept this in my back pocket and I was like, buzz, buzz. And so we're doing that and then after, we're going to the chain smokers at Excess and we're going to be on the stage and then people are.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, who are these ladies on?

[Amber Rae]

So good.

[Ashley Hess]

We're doing all sparkly.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, I'm so much hotter than I was in my 20s and my 30s to be.

[Ashley Hess]

Totally. Oh, I saw those old pics we were thrown around this past weekend.

[Raina Greenberg]

Jackie unearthed a photo of me from like 10 years ago and I was showing it to our agent too, and he was like, oh, seriously?

[Ashley Hess]

No, me too. I mean, me too. Oh my God.

[Raina Greenberg]

I look pretty bad today. But normally.

[Ashley Hess]

And then I want to do. Hopefully we can pull this off. We'll see. I mean, we're going to be going to bed at like 4 o' clock in the morning, but I want everyone to come into my sweet Sunday morning and order like a bunch of room service and have Like a pajama party and, like, recap the night, even though the night was few hours before.

[Raina Greenberg]

Can I just tell you the. The funnest recap of a night I've had in so long was the day after your special. I was like, fielding, I. I want to talk about your special. But, like, the morning after, just, like, talking to every single person individually, I was like, well, I haven't not had a recap morning like this in a long time.

[Ashley Hess]

What was there, like, tea? There was some.

[Raina Greenberg]

There was some tea.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, there was tea. Just like, it was all the same. People that are there for you. And I always, like, plus more people, plus your family. And the green room is like 50 people. I was there the whole night. Literally 50 people. It was great.

[Ashley Hess]

We went out and did a photo on stage afterwards, and it was like, people just kept coming. It was like a fucking clown car. I. I mean, yeah, we'll talk about it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Let's talk about it now.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, So I shot my special last weekend now, or, you know, whatever. The 11th in New York. It was so beautiful. I can't. I mean, I haven't. I'm not gonna post any photos. I want you guys to see the special and see the set and see the vision come to life. And I couldn't believe it. I mean, I had a set designer, of course, and the production team I worked with was incredible. I'll do some, like, more thank yous and talk about everybody who did everything when it comes out. But the way we transformed that set. They did. I mean, I. Obviously, I was in on this, and I had a vision that they really brought to life. But then the venue couldn't have been more perfect. It was so stunning. I mean, this was, like, the best night of my life, I think, like, I've never. I feel like it's one of the biggest things I've ever accomplished, and we've accomplished so much. And I've had these moments throughout this career with Girls Gotta Eat and, like, the Chicago theater, being one and, you know, stepping out on that stage. I'll never forget it with you. And we've certainly had those things. And I think there's still more Raina and I want to do, and I can think about those and what they're going to feel like as well. But for me, this was, like, a personal thing I did on my own. And I have not experienced anything like this where there's such a huge crew of people making your dream come true. And afterwards, they also were like, can we grab you for A picture with the crew. And I couldn't believe how many people I didn't know. They were everywhere, all over, you know, like I met as many people as I could, but also I'm the busy, you know, obviously my producer was incredible and the set designer and I met as many people as I could, but I truly didn't understand how many people, like how many much work from so many people went into this. There was like 30 people like all there for me. I felt so, like I'm not worthy. Like I, I've never felt so loved and so supported and so accomplished and like so on a high as I did that day. And I mean there's just so many different components of it. Like for one, all of you, all you there you there, you are part of it. And all my friends and family, like my whole family, like my parents, my brother and my sister in law and Lindsay and Buck and my friends Rob came in for it. People flew in for it. It just meant a lot for them to be there. And the audiences, like, I just like, it just meant so much to do it. In New York, where we started the podcast where I really got into comedy, these audiences could not have been better. Two packed houses and when you do a special, you have to, after it's over at the end, you have to say sit in your seat. We're going to run through some stuff. We're going to. Ashley's going to come out on stage again and you got to do the same, like energy. And people go even harder because they like know that it's for that I felt so loved. I literally had these moments where I'm like, how am I worthy of this? Like, I love you guys so much. I love the community that we built. The messages I got after this were unlike anything I've ever experienced. Girls telling me about stuff that was going down in the bathrooms and like the community that we've built that my material inspired them and empowered them and everybody was laughing and they brought their partners or their girlfriends or their moms and I just, it's overwhelming in the best way. And I had an amazing glam team. Andrew, our agent came and, and the shows were great. Like I really am so proud of them. I don't know which one was better. And they afterwards, after my, the first one, I obviously did two and you know, you kind of should pick the better of the two and you can splice in stuff from the other one. That's typically how it works. I was like, I don't even know which one was better. And after the first one, they were like, we really don't see many first takes that good. Like people kind of come out a little hot. They're, they're nervous and then they settle in. They were like, you came out and just commanded the stage. I'm like, I've done this so many times, which most comedians Indians do. But I felt so relaxed from the start. Obviously I was nervous all day. I was crashing out. Don't get it twisted. But I felt just in the zone from the beginning. You're just nodding. Sorry, I'll be done with my monologue in a minute. I know you want to jump in.

[Raina Greenberg]

But I, I'm have your. Have the floor.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, every. Everything was perfect. I mean, literally by the end of the second one, I was like, I've never felt so exhausted in the best way. I mean, my feet hurt, like, my body hurts. I have probably have not eaten enough because I've been like nervous all day and nothing's ever felt like that. I've never had any experiencing like that. I mean, it feels like when you rap anything, a movie or a show or, you know, we've done so many shows and they always feel like such a high when we're done. But it's years of creating this material, six months of touring it, a crew of dozens of people making your dream come true. And you're surrounded by all of your friends and family and these incredible audiences from this community that we've built. I've never felt that in my life. And it was something I'll never forget.

[Raina Greenberg]

It just, it was sensational. It was unbelievable. And I've said this before, all of our success for so many years has been so tied to each other and we've shared all of our successes together. The growth of this podcast and launching a sexual wellness business and these sold out tours for seven years, and this was all on your own, all by yourselves. That's not to look at it by yourself, but to just do this completely solo and to do all these shows. A sold out tour in a year that no comedians can sell. Like constantly we're being told, like, nobody can sell tickets, nobody can move tickets. To have this sold out tour that culminates in this production, the scale of which I did not even understand was, I mean, there was seven cameras, there was dozens of camera people, there was a huge set backstage, and you looked phenomenal. And so many of our friends flew in for this. And it just was like an unbelievable night. And I spent the whole night with our agent. I watched Your first show from the balcony in the audience with everybody. And I watched the second show with Andrew backstage, and the crew was just doubled over out loud, laughing. And I. You were just. It was flawless. You looked amazing. The set design was gorgeous. Like, I can't wait for people to see this.

[Ashley Hess]

Me too. Me too.

[Raina Greenberg]

The audience could not have been. I couldn't believe, like, just the boom of the audience.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

They were so perfect.

[Ashley Hess]

How do you get two perfect audiences? And I wonder sometimes. I've been to special tapings that feel a little awkward for various reasons all the time. My production company. The lighting was perfect, but you still are like, I don't know. You always wonder if the audience is gonna be able to get in the zone. Cause they know they're there for this taping. And you have to kind of do these pickups and, you know, seven people.

[Raina Greenberg]

On cranes with cameras.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, the cameras are all over the place. But, you know, you're prepped when you walk in, and it just doesn't feel as natural as, like, going to a comedy club. Maybe you're hyper aware. Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So.

[Ashley Hess]

But it didn't matter. They were locked in.

[Raina Greenberg]

They were so good. And so you asked me to open both of the shows and say that Oscar performed, like, a whole set, but you asked me to introduce.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, Rana's gonna be part of it. Don't worry. Oh, I can't wait for you guys to see it. Oh, my God. We're not like, you just. You're gonna die when you guys see this, when it's all said and done. But, yes, Rana will be a part of it.

[Raina Greenberg]

It was like, I was very emotional, like, the first time I got on stage to introduce you, because it was the day after we met eight years prior. And I'm like, introducing you for your special. And, like, I just was so proud. And I got on stage, I could barely breathe. Like, it was so much emotion. I was crying, and I, like. You wanted me to, like, drop this line that I had to say for the special. I started crying saying it. I was just really overwhelmed. So we get on stage. I watched a little special with Andrew up in the balcony. He's like, she's so good. She doesn't need another take. This is perfect. I wouldn't even have her do a second. Whatever. So we go back downstairs, and we're like, what's your feedback from, like, the first special? He's like, I only have feedback for Raina. And he was like, you really brought the mood down. He was like, please don't cry. The Next time you do this, just, like, just keep it in the box. You really. No crying. Please don't cry. You really brought the vibes.

[Ashley Hess]

When you started choking up, I was like, is this bitch for real right now? Like, you don't think I want to cry? You don't think you're going to trigger me? You think you have to go out there and cry right before I step on. I did that.

[Raina Greenberg]

I was like, I'm going to make her cry. I couldn't stop. So what I did was drink a bottle of wine in between the first and the second one.

[Ashley Hess]

So there's a line that Reina really needed to nail. Really. It really needs to be perfect because it may or may not open the whole fucking thing. And. And I was listening for her to start to be perfect, because you can pick it up and later if you need to. And she did nail it after she stopped crying the first show. She did not nail the second show. It was, like, slurry voice. She added a few little extra words in there, and I was like, fudge it. I think we got it on the first one, and if we have to figure it out, we'll redo it at the wedding, maybe. No, but it was just like, after the second one, you came out. I could hear that whine in your voice. I was like, there's no hope.

[Raina Greenberg]

I got on stage and somebody. People send me videos. I'm just like, I'll be honest. I'm drunk. Oh, my God. That was really fun. And then I was great. The second time, I just. I didn't cry or anything. And I go backstage to watch with Andrew, and we're, like, watching. And I went into the green room for a second. I go back out to the camera, and I see they're freaking out. There's, like, eight people looking at the camera, and they're like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. What are we gonna do? What are we doing?

[Ashley Hess]

Her hair.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I'm looking. I'm like, her hair looks fucking fine. And they're like, no, no. Wait till she turns. And you wouldn't turn. And, like, this went on for, like, a few minutes. And I'm like, guys, leave her alone. She's fine. There's nothing wrong with her hair. And they're like, no, there is. And you turn, and there was just this one that just jetted out really far and, like, looped around and went back into your hair. I mean, it was so. And they're like, who's gonna tell her? They're all scrambling. I'm like, I'll do it. And I was like. So I opened the curtain. You're in the middle of joke.

[Ashley Hess]

Can I tag in from my perspective? I don't want to cut you off, but I do think you need to hear how this felt for me.

[Raina Greenberg]

Raina, I did try to wait.

[Ashley Hess]

She did an okay time. I wasn't mid sentence, but I was mid joke opener.

[Raina Greenberg]

Opener. They were freaking out.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I get it. Because this might be. They might want to use this one. And there's a hair out of place, and so there's a teeny tiny break. I am in the middle of a joke, though, and about to kind of segue into the second part of it. And I hear, Ashley, Ashley, Ashley. And I'm like, this can't. Am I here? That can't be Reyna's voice on the stage with me. Raina's whispering from the side of the stage. Raina's here. She's out here on the stage. I turned to my left. You're there. I was like, what is actually happening? That's never in my life have I experienced something like this. You were like, your hair's messed up. And I was like, this can't be real. Raina comes out, she smooths my hair. And I do have to say I. I actually thought about clipping this, so I'm not going to.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, they were.

[Ashley Hess]

I loved it. I had a great joke. I turned it around and then I got back into it and finished the original joke. But what a thing to happen.

[Raina Greenberg]

The crew was like, that was the best moment. We can't wait to clip this.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, good. That really makes it.

[Raina Greenberg]

The crew that I worked with, like, they were amazing.

[Ashley Hess]

They do so much incredible comedy. And so for that view, you to say that they were, like, enjoying it and laughing and stuff means the world. But this is the thing. I remember going to Nikki's taping when she taped Bangin. She has a special called Bangin. It was in la. I remember the set. It's a Nicki, really big behind it, and I remember her being on stage. And they. There was like a natural break between jokes. And the voice of God came on, like, someone from the mic from Up Top and said, like, nikki, you need to fix your hair. We're going to come out and fix your hair. Powder your nose or whatever. But, like, for your best friend to be on the stage whispering, I was.

[Raina Greenberg]

Waiting for a natural break, but they were, like, freaking out. It was bad. It was like a big loop in the hair.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. So that was such A fun moment. And just again, thank you to everyone that came for all the support, for all the messages. And then the next morning, I woke up, we took a car to Boston with our flowers, and I closed the tour in Boston at the Wilbur. And that's the theater where I met my fiance in 2021. There's a whole long story. Obviously, we didn't start dating until 2023, but all of it's happened in Boston. The show was just absolutely incredible. I couldn't believe I had to do another show. I was like, you know, you should end it on your special. But to end it there meant even more. It was this full circle moment with him, and he came out on stage at the end. And I love our Boston audience so much. I mean, the Wilbur was packed, and we had some of his friends and some people in the green room and stuff. And then afterwards, we walk into the W, and I'm gonna talk about the W in a minute. The W is right across the street. We've never not stayed there. Every single time. It's literally five feet away.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

They have a.

[Ashley Hess]

You deal with the theater. We always, always stay there. When we perform at the Wilbur or we performed at the Box center next door, the Wang and I walk in. Reina. I've never. Everyone from the show was at the bar on a Sunday night at the W, of course, Screaming, screaming, like, everyone was up from there. Ashley.

[Amber Rae]

Ashley.

[Ashley Hess]

I was. I was dying. And then the few people at the bar who weren't at the show were like, who the is that? I did a whole round, took pictures. Everyone ripped a shot. Like, I was like, I love you so. I love you guys so much. I just. I. I love our audience. I love the people that support us so, so much. We have the best audience in the world. We are so lucky. Every time I meet anyone, I'm just like, they're so cool. They're so funny. They're so pretty. It never gets old. And it'll never not feel like an honor, and I'll never not be grateful. But that was, like, such a moment. And, like, my fiance was there with his friends. They went and sat down, and they were like, this is just crazy. But the W. I said this before. The first night he and I ever got together. We stayed the night in the W after the show in 2023 at the Wang, and we stayed in room 1111 12. And we loved that it had an angel number in it. And then we were getting married on 11125. And I knew we were gonna Stay back in the W. And then. So I emailed them, so they booked my room for me. And I was like, I'd love to request this hotel room. And they wrote back and were like, it's been requested already. And I'm like, what? From a fan? Like, is someone trying to have a fan experience?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

So I was like, I. I didn't even know what to say.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's.

[Ashley Hess]

Why is that a thing? It's not part of, like, a wedding block. Like, they were just like, it's. It's kind of been requested.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's lore. It's like Taylor Swift. It's just, you know, it's all these little, Little things.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, let me know if someone stayed in that fucking room. Like, did you not think I would want it Anyway, So then I wrote back and told the marketing director the whole story before I just requested it. I was like, it's important to me. Whatever. Then I was like, I just want to share with you why I requested the room. Told her the whole story, and there's some additional information, whatever. And she was like, oh, my God, that's incredible. We're going to see what we can do. And let us know what time you're arriving and stuff like that. So we check into the hotel. This guy at the front desk, Lloyd Sexy, he checks this in. He hands me a room key, and it says 1102. And I was like, we had requested 1112. I just want. He goes, you'll see. You'll see. And he hands it to us. And in parentheses on the little paper thing where the key comes in, it said 11:12. We go up. We go to the end of the hall. I'm like, we're gonna be in a suite. Obviously, we've stayed in those suites before. We go to the 1102. On the door, they had made this, like, plaque that said 1111 in blue. I was like, this is the cutest thing. We walk in, it's this huge suite. They had done, like, charcuterie and wine. They'd printed a picture out of us and then wrote this sweet car that was, like, so thoughtful. And it said, we made this, the door placard for you. And we painted it blue for Azul, and you can keep it. And it was just the best experience. And so I love the W. Boston, again, that's exclusively where we've stayed. And it just meant a lot. So, anyway, just want to share that and let me know who the fuck stayed in that room.

[Raina Greenberg]

It was a nice end of the weekend. I was like, I Cannot believe she has to go do this. I was in bed till one o' clock that day.

[Ashley Hess]

I was so jealous of you.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, I. This was one of the best nights of my life. I just got to, like, look pretty, get all the. Thank you. And just, like, be with all of our friends and hang out. Like, I had such a nice night with Andrew Bum, just. And also your fiance. We all hung out on.

[Ashley Hess]

And, like, it was just Jacqueline, my wedding planner, came.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, love her so much. It's just. I had the best night, and then I just got to, like, sleep all day the next day and have to pack up. It was the best.

[Ashley Hess]

It was a great weekend. And you planned this really special dinner Friday night before, and 10 of us went, and we just had the best time. I loved it.

[Raina Greenberg]

We went to Quality Meets, which is still. I mean, if you want a steakhouse in New York City, that's the one. And I used to. We may use. Am I gonna say it? Okay, so we're in the group chat.

[Amber Rae]

We're.

[Ashley Hess]

Raina put 10 random people on a group chat, which I love to see it. Lindsay.

[Raina Greenberg]

Most of them know each other, but your cousin Lindsay's on it.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

So. And I text Lindsay and I was like, I think you'll like this. And she's like, I love being a part of this.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. So Raina puts us on the group chat. She's like, we're gonna go to quality meets at 8pm Whatever. And then she's like, and I'll show you guys everywhere around this restaurant. I fucked.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I used to manage at that restaurant.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, well, you've talked a lot about fucking in the restaurant. And I was like, I can't wait for the HR violation tour. And so we're going back and forth, and, I mean, we walk in, and.

[Raina Greenberg]

The person that I used to sleep with there 15 years ago was still working there. I couldn't believe it.

[Ashley Hess]

I couldn't believe it. Just at the bar. Just right there. Yeah. I just watched your, like, face. I was like, you gotta be kidding me.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I didn't know, like, do I go say hello?

[Ashley Hess]

Did you ever, like. Did you lock eyes or anything?

[Raina Greenberg]

We looked directly at each other, but I was like, maybe you didn't see me or recognize me, but. So the way that, like, OpenTable or Resi or any of these platforms work is that you have a profile, a customer profile at every restaurant. And it probably says, like, raina Greenberg used to be a manager here, got fired from here 100%. The better the restaurant, the More notes they have about their clients. And restaurants have a pre shift meeting and they talk about like the VIPs and like the special guests that are coming in.

[Ashley Hess]

Right? Yeah, I've watched the bear.

[Raina Greenberg]

They knew that we were coming because they started. They sent a ton of free stuff over the table. They sent tons of appetizers and sides and wine and.

[Ashley Hess]

You're right.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

They knew exactly what.

[Ashley Hess]

I just don't think it was like, right, I got fired from here. I mean, they still treat you really nicely. You still know some people that work there. Yeah, you're like a real celeb.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, I got fired for like having a drink on the job, which was so ridiculous because everybody drank on the job.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You're so.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, you're right. I wasn't thinking that you would come up during the pre shift meeting and that bartender's like, what the fuck?

[Raina Greenberg]

And it said like 8pm Reina Greenbrier. He knew exactly when I made the. And I was just like, I don't know. I'm like frozen. I do not know what to do. It was. I also like, there's no reason to walk over to the bar. It would have been like, hey, yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

We slept together 15 years ago. Totally.

[Raina Greenberg]

He was so hot back then.

[Ashley Hess]

You know what it reminds me of? I have two things in terms of people staying at the same job for so long. When Carrie Bradshaw, you know of Sex and the City, Carrie had said she had an abortion with this server at this restaurant. She went to the restaurant. He still worked there, however, 10 years, 15 years later. And I was telling you that when I. I used to hook up with this guy that worked at a grocery store in Dover, Delaware. And I would hook up with him usually like winter breaks from college. So never after I graduated. But when I would come in from college, I would go out with my friends around Dover and I would hook up with this guy and he was like, like so funny. And I just, I never saw him as a long term partner. And I don't know, he was just a fun hang. We would go out, we would like dance like he had a kid, whatever was fine. But he worked at the grocery store. He worked in produce. And sometimes I would get drunk if he was on the night shift, I'd like go there after the club. It was a mess. So the club, it was called Bubba's. It was in Dover.

[Raina Greenberg]

So anyway, the grocery store after the club.

[Ashley Hess]

No, I did one time. I like found him in the cereal aisle. I was all drunk.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, I go to west side Market all the time when I'm drunk. So I get it.

[Ashley Hess]

So eight to 10 years later, I was with my friend Brooke, who would spend Christmases with us. She was the first Jewish person we took in for Christmas. Then it was Louisa, and then it was you. And my mom sent us to get stuff for Christmas dinner. We go to the grocery store, and I'm telling her, I used to hook up with this guy that worked at. Worked in produce. And she's like, shut up. And I'm telling her all this stuff we're checking out, and she was like, I wonder if he still works here. And we looked up and on the.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Wall, there he is.

[Ashley Hess]

Employee of the month.

[Raina Greenberg]

What are the odds? Listen, that's a New York City steakhouse. You get a job bartending at a New York State steakhouse, you fucking hang on to that job, you make a fortune.

[Amber Rae]

Exactly.

[Raina Greenberg]

But you don't expect it at the grocery store. New York City Steakhouse. If you could get a bartending job, you never leave.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, it's such. So easy money.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, it's just, you print money.

[Ashley Hess]

But like, also employee of the month. That makes me think that he's not even a manager now. Right? Would you have an employee of the month?

[Raina Greenberg]

No.

[Ashley Hess]

The manager's not getting.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's unfair because, I mean, technically the manager's nominated.

[Ashley Hess]

Ten years later, he's just still working produce. He's comfy.

[Raina Greenberg]

Good for him.

[Ashley Hess]

He was comfy. Okay, let's just take a quick break.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. This podcast is sponsored and brought to you by Squarespace. I'm so excited to talk about Squarespace because this is the website platform Ashley and I have used for the Girls gotta eat platform for many years that we bought the domain through there and yours, I used it for one hungry Jew when I was selling merch. And Squarespace is an all in one website platform for entrepreneurship entrepreneurs to stand out and exceed online. So whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, they make it easy to make a beautiful website, engage with your audience, sell anything from products to content to time all in one place. I mean, I've just been using this for so many years and like, our website specifically has so many different pieces of information. It has our entire episode catalog. So it allows me to like easily. We upload that every week. It has our product line, it has our live shows, people can shop tickets. It has, it has so many bells and whistles. Is so easy to use.

[Ashley Hess]

But even if you don't have all those bells and whistles, I mean, you guys can go to mine too. Ashhest.com, i mean, that's way more simple. But I had this vision of like, I do want everything in like one kind of scrollable homepage, but you can still bounce around, see, like tour dates, bio. Like, it's unbelievable. And it's so easy. I mean, clearly, I don't know coding and this and that. And then Anna who works for us, jumped in and she helps me with my website too. And it's just so easy to like pick up. And she's, she's wonderful too, and she's figured out some different hacks and has honestly made anything I've wanted to happen happen because it's just so doable within Squarespace, I can't imagine any other platform.

[Raina Greenberg]

Absolutely. And they, so they have like cutting edge AI technology, but in terms of design, I mean, there's templates. It couldn't look more beautiful and be easier to create a really professional, easy to use website. No matter what type of plugins you want to use, they have Squarespace payments. So it's the easiest way to manage your payments in one place. You can connect all your social accounts. So everything that we do on TikTok or Instagram, any other platform is connected there. It's really easy. You can sell content. There's tons of SEO tools also. So, I mean, SEO is so important if you want to get discovered quickly. It is just the one stop shop. And I think that websites are really intimidating, especially because people are like, how am I going to design this? This is really like complicated. It's not. Squarespace makes it so, so simple, so, so easy. So you guys can check out squarespace.com GGE for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use GGE to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Okay?

[Ashley Hess]

And I am telling you guys about Smart mouth. This is the only mouthwash scientifically proven to give you 24 hours of fresh breath with just two rinses a day. Man, my breath was really on my mind. As you are around 50 people in your face, you're just like, please God, let me not be hot breathing on these people. And literally, I'm a coffee drinker. I'm drinking it right now. Had the most garlicky shrimp scampi last night for dinner.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, dude, you drink coffee before shows.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes, garlic hummus, totally. So it's really important to me. And the secret is their dual solution, Smart zinc technology. As you pour, the two solutions activate billions of zinc ions that instantly eliminate bad Breath and keep it away all day. We love this little fun fact that it was developed by the dentist who literally wrote the encyclopedia section on bad breath. And it's super easy to use. There's a snap top bottle. So effortless convenience with the same 24 hour fresh breath. So I have talked about this, that I wasn't really a mouthwash girly before I discovered smart mouth. And I have been, I really have been lo loving it. And the toothpaste too. I'm really picky about toothpaste. I've used the same brand of toothpaste my entire life because that's a little more under the radar because I just don't like the standard ones you get in the grocery store. I'm not gonna name any names, but they just give me like a weird aftertaste. My mouth doesn't feel that clean. So I was skeptical to try anything new. And I can tell you that smart mouth, I totally switched to it. I'm really, really liking it in terms of the toothpaste and of course the original activated mouthwash, they have so many different products you guys can check out and we really just stand by it. So you can never have bad breath again. Find smart mouth at Walgreens, Walmart and Amazon or visit smartmouth.com GGE to snag a special discount on your next smart mouth purchase. That's www.s m a R-T-M-O-U-T-H.com GGE don't miss out on 24 hour fresh breath. Your mouth will. Thank you.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. And function. I choose function because. Because it's the only health platform that gives me data most people never get and the insights to start doing something about it. So inside function, you get access to test over 100 plus biomarkers. And that's gonna be hormones to toxins to markers of heart health, inflammation, stress. And for an additional fee, you can also access MRI and chest CT scans, all tracked in one secure place over time. And It's a near 360 degree view to better see what's happening in your body. And that's why top health leaders are all behind Function Health. This is really the best way to just source all of these tests in one place. And it's so easy to use. And then the platform gives you so many different recommendations for how to move forward once you have the results and check the results. So specifically, let's talk about autoimmunity. So your immune system is supposed to protect you, but sometimes it does misfire. And with autoimmune disorders, the body starts attacking so tissue and creating inflammation and causing symptoms such as pain and fatigue, often long before a diagnosis is made. And I think all the time like, is there a. Is this a problem or am I, is this just like being alive? And so this can help you look through all these different examples of relevant biomarkers and test and track early indicators of autoimmune disorder and tons of other issues that might be occurring. Routine checkups really include these markers. So autoimmune issues specifically are often missed until symptoms become severe. So for lots of reasons, this is why I use function. And you guys can learn more by using our link. Function is a near 360 degree view to see what's happening in your body. And our first 1000 listeners get a 100 credit towards their membership. Visit functionhealth.com GGE or use gift code GGE100 at sign up to own your health.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, well, let's get into it with our guest.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, guys. We are very excited to welcome our guest today. She is a best selling author and speaker, best known for her books choose wonder over worry and the answers are within you. She's also the creator of the Feelings Journal, a tool that transforms the way you engage with your emotions. Her writing and illustrations reach 9 million people per month and her work has been featured in such publications as the New York Times, New York Magazine, Today, Self, Fortune, Forbes, Entrepreneur. Her new book is out now. Lovable One Woman's Path from Good to Free. Please welcome to the show. Amber Rae.

[Amber Rae]

Hello.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Hi.

[Raina Greenberg]

You've been making the rounds from all of our all of our face. Caitlin Bristowe and almost 30 and Vienna Faran. And now you're here.

[Amber Rae]

I'm here.

[Ashley Hess]

Coming to us from the Hamptons.

[Amber Rae]

Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm so jealous.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. We wish we were with you in the Hamptons.

[Amber Rae]

I know.

[Raina Greenberg]

And as we record with you, you're doing a book launch party tonight. The book comes out as we record.

[Amber Rae]

Came out last week.

[Raina Greenberg]

Last week.

[Amber Rae]

Party starts in 90 minutes.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, my God. Okay. We'll get you out of here.

[Amber Rae]

We're good?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. Okay.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Well, congrats also.

[Amber Rae]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Does it just feel like birthing?

[Ashley Hess]

Like how does it feel? Yeah, it feels cathartic.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

All the things tell us it feels.

[Amber Rae]

To finally have people reading the book and responding to the book and like to hear the resonance and to hear so many women being like, wow, this is my story story too. Or you put to feelings what I've been experiencing but didn't necessarily have the words for that's like, you know, when you particularly memoir. This is my first memoir. But when you write memoir, you're like in a room, bleeding on the page. You know, it's kind of this healing process for you and you hope your story will resonate, but you don't really know. And so to like have it out in the world and to be hearing how people are reading it, that's the best part.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, well, we want to. We're going to probably end with responses to the book and how it's been feeling, but I guess give us the boilerplate. What inspired you to write this book? Your story is really, really fascinating.

[Amber Rae]

So four years ago, while married, I looked into the eyes of a stranger and I had this knowing feeling of he's your person. And it was this crazy moment because of course I was married. I was living. I'd left New York in the pandemic and I was in Todos Santos, Mexico, building a land project with my then husband, who is now my business partner. And we were in the throes of that and I was desperately trying to convince myself that the relationship was right. We were nine years in, we were best friends. We were never really romantic partners, had a sexless relationship, but we were good friends and we got along and there were things that worked. And I think I was just like, this could be enough. Maybe we can figure it out. Maybe another workshop. If we do read this book together, then we'll find the intimacy and closeness that I'm desperately craving. And I think unconsciously I was also like, maybe if I make him my business partner because he loves to work, then I'll like get, you know, we'll find that thing. But when I looked into the eyes of this other person, it was this wake up call of a, this is what connection feels like. And B, you've been lying to yourself or trying to convince yourself of something and that's not what this relationship actually is.

[Raina Greenberg]

You open the book with this really powerful story of standing on the altar on your wedding day and everyone's looking at me thinking, they're so happy. And you put, you know, your self talk, which is like, I, I don't think, I don't think this is gonna last.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I walked down the aisle thinking, I'm not sure how long this is gonna last, but maybe we'll throw a great party.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And you knew before that or you.

[Ashley Hess]

Felt that way before that?

[Amber Rae]

Yeah, you know, I. Pretty early on, he was three hours late to our first date. And I remember being, yeah, and his phone died and blah, blah, blah. And like. But I remember being like, I don't know if I can trust this guy, but he said all the right things. And like, I'm so sorry you feel that way. I take full responsibility. Like, he, like, really owned his part in it. So I was like, okay, this guy can, like, own up to things. Like, maybe, maybe it's okay. But, you know, I think I had that inner voice within me saying repeatedly, like, I don't know if this is right. And you know, the, the chemistry, the like sexual chemistry piece there never really felt quite right. But I, like, I thought. And I was 26 years old then I was like, oh, well, like, we'll figure that out. Like, maybe it'll get better in time. Because I like. And he's a good guy and, and like, I like his friends. You know, there were things that I could look to and point to and be like, that's great. But, you know, there was a voice within me that was like, are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure? But I kept pushing it down, pushing it down and pushing it down because, I mean, the truth is I, like, in some ways wanted it to work.

[Raina Greenberg]

Did you have friends in your life that you were able to ask at the time? Like, well, everybody probably feels like this all the time. Well, I, I have doubts, but so does everybody. We don't really have sex, but sex dwindles for people. Did you have community around you that you felt comfortable even saying those thoughts out loud to?

[Amber Rae]

I don't think I was fully honest. And that wasn't because I was being dishonest with my friends. It was because I was scared to be honest with myself.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Amber Rae]

And if I was honest with myself, then I would have to be like, what are you doing? You know. But I like, you know, I definitely had friends that I could be like, you know, we're not really having sex that often. And I think, you know, for a few of my friends, they had been in long term married relationships, had kids, and they're like, we're not really having sex that often either.

[Ashley Hess]

You know? Yeah.

[Amber Rae]

So, like, you know, I don't think not to jump ahead, but like, when I was leaving and going to friends, being like, okay, here's what I've realized. This is not right for me. You know, there were friends who were like, thank God, you know, like, we could sense this and feel this. And now that you're voicing it, it makes so much sense. So, you know, I felt like I had a really good of Support in the leaving. But I think it wasn't until I, like, was super honest with myself that I was able, even able to be really honest with my friends.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's really hard, especially in your 20s, to put words to that, to when you find good on paper guy. And I found that too. I was engaged to him and I found this guy who treated me good enough. We also didn't really have much of a sex life, but, like, we got along. He was a good teammate.

[Ashley Hess]

It was fine.

[Raina Greenberg]

He was a nice person. He didn't hurt me emotionally or physically ever. I mean, it was just a good enough relationship. And I was very afraid to ask myself the question which you say in the book, which is like, how do you phrase it? Like, what's the thing you're like, too afraid to admit to yourself? And that thing for me was like, I'm just not that happy with this with good on paper guy.

[Amber Rae]

I love good on paper guy.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Well, good guys are hard to find. I mean, it's just. And we hear from a lot of our listeners and we even see this with friends that I say the quote, like when you hear a woman say, he makes me happy, and you almost read between the lines of he doesn't make me unhappy. Because there's a lot of women out there that their partner is the thing making them unhappy in life. And you just see so much bad behavior and people being treated poorly that.

[Ashley Hess]

You'Re like, oh, it's rough out there.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Like, this is a good guy. But I have a question for you. Did you feel like you had models of healthy, loving relationships with sex and stability in your.

[Ashley Hess]

Your life? Or did you feel like you didn't.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Really even know what that looked like or would feel like?

[Amber Rae]

Yeah, I just real quick. Cause I love the good on paper guy because I have so many people reaching out to me. Being like the good on paper guy is almost harder to le. Leave because it's like, nothing's wrong and.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It is harder to leave. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

There's not a big thing.

[Amber Rae]

Shouldn't I be more grateful something wrong with me that, like, this isn't enough and like, do I need to fix some part of myself? And that was kind of like where I was at. I was like, do I like women? Is that what, you know? Is that my good on paper guy isn't good enough? You know, I like.

[Ashley Hess]

I like.

[Amber Rae]

It was like, it must be something that's wrong with me. Yeah, it's. It can be harder to leave.

[Raina Greenberg]

I would ask myself that question too. Am I so rotten what's so wrong with me that I can't enjoy this? That I can't be grateful for what I have, which is a man who is kind, doesn't cheat on me, that doesn't diminish me. Why can't I enjoy this more and just be grateful that I have something that other people don't? And it took a long time. I wouldn't have left him. He left me.

[Amber Rae]

Okay. Yeah. Interesting. So he wasn't that good on paper. Yeah. Another story.

[Raina Greenberg]

He was good until he wasn't.

[Amber Rae]

But to answer your question, no, I did not have healthy models of love. You know, I was raised by a single mama. She had me and she was 21. My dad left and had an affair with some mistress. And then he got in a car accident which led him to have a traumatic brain injury. I didn't meet him that I remember, until I was nine. My mom remarried. He was not a healthy influence. That was chaotic and disastrous. And so it's, you know, it was like, not only did I not see healthy, secure, safe love, the love that I longed for with this father who I'm, you know, I met when I was. Or when I was eight years old, I met him and he had this traumatic brain injury. And so I so desperately wanted him to be like, hi, daughter, like I see you. I let you know, to be able to connect with him, which he was just not capable of. And so I believe that, like, this desire that I had felt for this. This person who, you know, my mom told me wonderful things about this desire I felt for so long. Desire is not dangerous because I don't want to feel that longing feeling again. I don't want to of feel like I want someone so intensely and they're not able to meet me. That seemed very scary. So I was like, anytime I feel desire for someone, it's too risky. I. You know, they might leave, they might not be able to meet me. So I'm just gonna make safe choices.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Safe choices in love that makes. I mean, I've actually really heard someone express that in such a way and so that the lack of desire with your first husband was secure and safe. Yeah, for you.

[Amber Rae]

I didn't consciously wasn't aware of that, of course, but it was like, I'm gonna pick this guy who, like, probably won't leave me. Or even if he did leave me, it might. It'll hurt, but maybe not hurt as much as if I, like, was like, you know, so in love with this person.

[Raina Greenberg]

I want to talk a little bit about how Your mom described your dad, though, and the models of love that you had as a kid. Because you opened this chapter. I want to say I think your mom probably did the best she could. All moms are doing the best they could. You open this chapter saying, when my mom was pregnant with me, he fucked one of her best friends.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

And the way that your mom would go on to speak about him wasn't as though he. Like, when you hear that, it makes your whole body seize up. But I want to talk about how your mom spoke about your father as though he was like, the love of her life.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Amber Rae]

Early on, when I was young, in those early years, I think what she wanted me to think of him, he was, like, the smartest person she ever met and so amazing. This musician. He played seven instruments, and he had the most beautiful voice. And like, oh, my gosh, I'm smart. Like, you know, it was all positive, which for little me only created more longing because I was like, who's this amazing person that doesn't want me? Or that left us? Like, why did he leave us? And so, you know, I think that's where some of that, like, early abandonment anxiety started. But then later in life, as I got older, you know, and I started to hear more about the truth, and I started to ask more questions. You know, I learned that he liked, like, your best friend. And I learned that, like, oh, he was also an addict. And I learned that he got behind the wheel under the influence, and his best friend, who was getting married the next day, died in the car crash. You know, I, like, learned more details, and I was like, okay, this is actually, like. I think it was actually helpful to understand that he wasn't this, like, perfect man who just, you know, decided we weren't good enough for him.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, I'm sure it really formed the way you looked at romantic attachment and attachment in general to a parent this. This amazing person didn't want to.

[Ashley Hess]

Of.

[Raina Greenberg]

Didn't want to raise me.

[Ashley Hess]

And that's a whole different discussion.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

But I'm also very fascinated by it, in the way that a parent might talk about the absent parent. Because you want. Why would you not want your little girl to think her dad is a superhero and he's the, you know, the white knight? And then it's like. Or do you go the complete opposite and just like, this man's terrible. You trust me, you're better off. And I guess, obviously the truth can fall somewhere in the middle. But it's interesting that that's the story you were told.

[Amber Rae]

Totally And I'm grateful she wasn't like, dad bashing.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. You almost overcorrect.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's the over correction of like the.

[Ashley Hess]

Bashing is the, like, he's perfect. Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Amber Rae]

And I think it was also painful for her to look at, which is what she said later, like when I, you know, as I've started telling my story and putting it out there, it's uncomfortable for her because she's like, oh, I didn't want to look at this. I didn't want to look at like, you know, what comes up for me around. Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I. There is no right answer. Thinking about, you know, do you tell your kid the truth, which is really painful, or do you build this person up that left. I mean, there's just no right answer.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And we all romanticized too, in general, whoever it is, past partners, family members, like, I think we have a tendency.

[Ashley Hess]

To, to do that so totally.

[Amber Rae]

I though I do think, like little me could have handled. Listen, he was extraordinary in these ways and I really loved this about him. And also I. There were some aspects of him, like where he needed to grow up and like he was a kid. Like, I feel like she could have given me like both and I may, you know, I don't know what age I would have been in, but I think I would have been able to handle and hold that and would it. I wouldn't have then romanticized him so much and longed for him so much and also like personalized his leaving.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. Well, I'm sorry. And it sounds like she, you know, she did her best. And yeah, fast forward. You're with good on paper guy and. And you're like, I don't know, is this like how everybody feels? And you talk about going to therapy and lying to the therapist. So let's talk about knowing that you wanted to be in therapy and then not as many people not being honest in therapy.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah. You know, it was just like we were in this like denial. Denial and denial and avoidance was kind of our whole thing. Like we never fought and I thought that was a good thing. But it was actually, I think an issue because we were never bringing up up the things that mattered to us. We were never confronting the issues that were alive in the relationship. And yeah, we like went to this therapist and as it. As if we were trying to convince the therapist so that we could convince ourselves the relationship was right and so we would go there. I'm like, these amazing things are happening and this is happening with this Business, and I'm getting another book deal. And she was just like.

[Ashley Hess]

She'd be like, why are you here?

[Amber Rae]

You're my favorite couple.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You know, but if anything, like, you.

[Amber Rae]

Know, I feel like also the right therapist might be like, why are you really here? Like, yeah, you know, and so, like. But we never, like, we never told her we weren't having sex. We, you know, there were. I remember there were a few, like, okay, we're getting into some things, but I mean, it was just, I think, another part of, you know, the story we tell ourselves because we'll always find the evidence for what we choose to believe. And so we were choosing to believe that this was right. And so we're going to go to therapy, and maybe this therapist will convince us that we should stay.

[Raina Greenberg]

Can I ask you, you know, you're in therapy. This is a safe space to admit some deficits in the relationship. Why did it feel so frightening to say we're not sleeping with each other?

[Amber Rae]

I think if we admitted we were not sleeping with each other, it would mean the relationship was over and we needed to separate. And I don't think we were ready for that. Or just the idea of that felt too scary or too uncomfortable or like, we're in this deep. We've, you know, our communities are now we're in business together. It was like we were too far. How could we, like, blow it all up now?

[Ashley Hess]

Did you feel unhappy day to day.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Or was it just like you said, you have a friendship, you still have a friendship. So was it just coexisting and kind of this unsettling feeling that something better is out there?

[Amber Rae]

I think part of my. How I responded to childhood trauma was, I'm fine, I'm good, I'm happy, I can keep going. I'm not, you're crazy behavior. The emotional immaturity, the violence balance, the chaos, like, the things that I witnessed. It was kind of like, I'm good and I'm gonna keep going. And so I think my. It was like, was I happy in the relationship? It was like, I'm happy because I make myself happy. You know, it's kind of my, like, I'm in charge of that. And so I was more focused on, like, I can be good. I can be good wherever. I'm easy breezy, I'm gonna go with the flow. I can, like, make this work. But, like, if I, like, got really quiet and listened and was like, am I I happy in what we have? Would have been a fuck. No. Okay.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Amber Rae]

But I, like, wasn't there because I was like so focused on my own self and how I can show up that I, like, was ignoring the relationship and how that felt.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

You write this quote in the book, how I found myself in a sexless relationship where my needs for closeness and emotional depth are not met. Why have I let this be okay? Why do I keep holding on to hope that something will change? Why, when something feels off or missing, do I not listen? And why am I afraid of disappointing others but so willing to disappoint myself? And it's like a. It's really a powerful statement. And I mean, it's like, it's a lot to unpack. But why do you think you were so afraid of disappointing others at your own detriment?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah. That was the most terrifying thing to me. I think my, like, in terms of like the good girl, the I thought I needed to harmonize and keep the peace. And that was the way that like, okay, if I can make sure my mom's okay and my stepdad's not freaking out, and if I can maintain harmony and this family unit, then I'll be safe, then I'll be taken care of, then my needs as a child will be met. And so fast forward to adulthood and I'm like, I gotta amaze everyone. Okay. Ooh, their mood is shifting. Oh, why is everyone shifting? Did they have too many drinks? Like, you know, it's like I was like constantly hypervigilant around everyone's okayness. And if I can maintain harmony, then I can maintain okayness. And so I think that just like fully transferred into my love and romantic life where, yeah, it was just. I didn't even realize I was self abandoning, you know, when I was in it, I didn't even realize I was ignoring my needs. I didn't even think I was in touch with my needs. Like, and that was what was crazy is that on the other side of the nine year relationship, it was like I woke up from this spell and I was like, what the hell? How did I let that be okay? How did I even get here? Because my work was to help people live their most authentic and true lives. So how am I this person who's doing this work in the world who creatively felt like, creatively I feel like I can say these are my needs and here's what matters and here's what I want. Like, that was easy for me. My mom was a badass entrepreneur. Of course she modeled like, business powerhouse. But love, like, ooh, what are. What should you need in love? I didn't even know where to begin.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think people pleasers are very used to setting themselves on fire to keep someone else warm. And as long as everyone around you feels good and comfy, it's sort of okay if you don't.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah, exactly. You have these great metaphors. Good on. Good on paper guy.

[Raina Greenberg]

We've been doing this a long time.

[Ashley Hess]

So can we just talk about where.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It all changed and when you met this person?

[Amber Rae]

Yeah. So I. You know, here we were in the middle of raising money for this land project, and two potential investors came over. They had a friend tag along, and it was the moment that they walked toward us and I connected eyes with him that I had this kind of feeling of hello again, and felt like I was home. And just, you know, he said, hello, I'm John. And I tilted my head, and he tilted his head, and I was like, hello, John. And I, like, led him in, and we did the whole pitch of the land and the house and everything we were doing, but the entire time, I just was, like, could not understand what was pulsing through me. And my ex went and talked to the two people about business, this. And John and I were kind of, like, in this bubble for hours. They were supposed to be there for an hour and five hours later. I was just like, wow, okay, this feels like my person. But in the moment, I was like, that's crazy. Maybe in another life. And I even said to him, like, I'm gonna match you with your person. Because I was thinking, like, okay, I can't have him in this lifetime, so, like, I'm gonna find the woman because he's so great. I'm gonna find his person. And then they left, and I turned to my husband and I said, I just met a soulmate.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, you said that to your husband?

[Amber Rae]

I said that to my husband.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, I thought he said that to you.

[Amber Rae]

No, no, no, no. I said, I just met a soulmate. And he said, I know. That was beautiful.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Like, in. In terms of a romantic context.

[Amber Rae]

I wasn't, you know, soulmate. Like, I don't necessarily believe we have one person who's our.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, no, I get it.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I just didn't.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Did you.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Did you feel like there? Because you just said you were going to set him up with someone else because you didn't see a future.

[Amber Rae]

I mean, I imagined, like, oh, that would be nice if I was single and not in this whole thing. Like, yes, I would totally run off of this guy. He's my person. But I was like, not in this lifetime. So When I told him I just met a soulmate, I wasn't thinking. And now I'm gonna blow up my mouth.

[Ashley Hess]

Got it. Okay. Right.

[Raina Greenberg]

And you were in your house with your husband when you met him. I mean, and so when you said that, you meant, like, a soul connection.

[Amber Rae]

I felt like, this incredible. Like, this was the most extraordinary connection I've ever felt in my life. I was like that. I just said. I was like, I just wanted a soulmate. And he saw it. You know, it wasn't like I was trying to hide. And, like, it was very clear that that connection that we had, which didn't feel like, oh, this, like, romantic heat thing. It just felt like, wow, these two people really light up with each other. Like, wow, there's something special here.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, we're just gonna take a quick break. I'm gonna tell you about Saks. This episode is brought to you by Saks Fifth Avenue. So we love Saks so much. And fall is here. Fall fashion gotta be. I mean, fall and summer.

[Raina Greenberg]

Melanie was making fun of me. Cause I was like, my favorite fashion is women's fashion in the fall. And she's like, yeah, it's everybody's favorite type.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Perfection.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I guess that's true. I just. The colors, like, browns and Burgundies and. But I just love dressing for summer. So easy. Slutty tank top.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, but it's like. It's no. It's no thought, you know, Like, Saks is really, like, the opportunity to, like, elevate your wardrobe. And like, even, like, athleisure with them is great. Gifting from them is great. Like, it's just. It's holiday season. You can gift stuff from them. There's just so much to choose from.

[Ashley Hess]

And just every brand. I mean, I'm looking like. We love alc. Those pants that people used to DM me about, they were like, tell Rand I like our pants. They were alc. Alexis Batar. That jewelry. You got me those earrings. I'm looking at some Alexis Batar earrings for my wedding, actually, like, the. My ceremony and reception. Just all saints to Alexander Wang, to Alice and Olivia, which I'm just obsessed with. And to your Gucci and your Prada. Everything you could ever imagine. So I'm on their site now, and I'm looking at their holiday party collection. Oh, my gosh. I mean, this is the stuff that just. I die over. I mean, you just see stuff I've seen, stuff I've never seen before.

[Raina Greenberg]

That maroon suit. Look at this.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, look at that green dress. Could you die? We'll put the green dress up on the screen. I mean, I, I love that you can sort by category. Like, what are you looking for? I just find stuff I've never seen before.

[Amber Rae]

I know.

[Raina Greenberg]

And there's some websites everybody shops on. Everybody shows up on the same stack.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. So really, you guys should check out Saks. We are such fans of everything you could ever need. I mean, stuff for kids, stuff for all ages, all occasions, accessories, jewelry, shoes, everything you could ever want. Because shopping should be fun and easy. You guys can head to Saks Fifth Avenue or Saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style every day.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. And this show is sponsored by better help. So October 10th was World Mental Health Day. And this year we just wanna say thank you To Therapists and BetterHelp Therapists have helped over 5 million people worldwide on their mental health journeys. Millions of stories, millions of journeys, and behind every one of those is a therapist who showed up and helped somebody. And I mean, I think where I would be, honestly, without the therapists that have come on the show and the work that they've done and the books I've read. And even lately I've just been like dabbling with so much therapy to deal with the situation that I'm dealing with. And it just, it helps to reframe things in your mind and the stories that you're telling yourself. And these people have really dedicated their lives to making people's lives better. So we just want to spotlight them and all the therapists who work for BetterHelp. They have quality therapists who work according to a strict code of conduct. They're fully licensed in the US and they have a therapist match commitment. So they do an initial matching work for you so you can focus on the type of therapy that you need, the goals that you have, and you can switch at any time if you need to. They have tons of client reviews. With over 30,000 therapists, it is the world's largest online therapy platform serving over 5 million people globally. So if you're a therapist who listens to the show, whether or not you are on betterhelp or not, just thank you for what you've done for everybody. And this World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating therapists. We've helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com GGE that's BetterHelp H-E-L-P.com.

[Ashley Hess]

GGE okay, and Rocket Money, you know what really can add up and some people forget that they sign up for is like fall sports subscriptions, stuff like that. Like football. Like, you might be like, I want to watch this one football game. So you sign up for something, you.

[Raina Greenberg]

Just forget, I have so much stuff I've signed up for.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Ashley Hess]

And then they're charging you in the summer. You're like, I haven't watched a football game in months. So you know, streaming subscriptions, fantasy football league, buy INS team gear, all this stuff really. Rocket Money can help you find the subscriptions you're no longer using, but also budget for all these expenses and cancer. Cancel those seasonal streaming subscriptions before you forget, because it really can add up. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. We really love this. They show all your expenses in one place, including those subscriptions you forgot about, and they'll help you cancel it. Their dashboard is going to lay out your total financial picture. So again, it's more than just the subscriptions. It's going to have your bill due dates and your paydays in a way that's super easy to digest. Best. I mean, the thing I love about Rocket Money, I think that companies like this have gotten so good at making it easy for us. I mean, there's like some dashboards. I'm not going to name any names that just like, they break my brain.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

Like, what am I even looking at?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

How dare you?

[Raina Greenberg]

No one thought maybe this is hard to use?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. So yes, it is. Really? Okay. So they really are going to help you reach your goals. If you have something you'd like to save for, they can help analyze your accounts to find the best time each month to put that extra money aside. They'll even try to negotiate lower bills for you. The app is great. It automatically scans your bills to find opportunities to save and then goes to work to get you better deals. They have saved users over two and a half billion dollars, including over $880 million in canceled subscriptions alone. Their 10 million members save up to $740 a year when they use all the apps premium features. So just think about that. That 7, 800 bucks. What would you do with it if it was just in your pocket, thanks to Rocket Money. So cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com GGE today, that's RocketMoney.com GGE RocketMoney.com GGE okay, we'll get back into with Amber.

[Raina Greenberg]

So let's talk a little bit more about the story and how this builds. Because your husband was along for the ride, essentially, this guy becomes your business partner.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah. So I'm thinking, I can't have him as my life partner. I'll make him my creative partner. So he comes in and he. He's going to build a project with us. He's an artist, and he was going to help me think through, like, the design, the architecture, and how to visually bring the experience to life, which is how him. And I quickly realized, okay, maybe there are feelings here. And, you know, very early on, I was like, can I just name the fact that, like, I'm sensing the connection here? And, like, is it just me? Because I didn't know if I was alone feeling this, like, you know, I don't know if this guy is, of course, feeling what I'm feeling. And he was like, I'm so glad you brought this up, because, yes, I did feel this kind of like, a recognition at first sight with you. And I was kind of like, why am I meeting my person who's clearly not available to me? But his whole thing was like. I just felt like you were showing me that, like, what unconditional love could be. Like. Like, I can love this person without possessing her. And it doesn't have to be romantic. It could just show me, like, what's possible for me in love. So that's how he was interpreting it at first. And then, like, once that was named, it was kind of. I'm like, okay, that's interesting. And then, you know, I think my ex's participation in it of, like, wow, now that John's hanging out with you and kind of meeting your emotional needs, and I get to work more. Like, this is really working for me. And I was like, that's interesting information. So it was just like this. I mean, it was. It was nuts. And also, like, every time I was with John, I was like, shooting star. And I mean, it was. It like, I couldn't put all the synchronicities and things that were happening and inside the book, because it would sound way too cheesy. But I feel like, you know, the universe was like, hello. I'm gonna, like, be really, like, obnoxious in showing you all of these things to be like, hello. Pay attention. I feel like there's something here.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, Like. Like, everything was conspiring, like, seeing the world in color for the first time. Like, life starts now.

[Amber Rae]

Everything is black and white now. It is good.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

So in the beginning, your husband was just like, look at her go. She found a new buddy that lights her up. I mean, he was around a lot of this, right?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, he was.

[Amber Rae]

I mean, he even like, left us on the beach sometimes. Like, your connection is undeniable. Why would I get in the way of it? I was like, what is happening?

[Raina Greenberg]

But, you know, is he saying sorry?

[Ashley Hess]

Is he.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Is this like in a romantic?

[Ashley Hess]

Like, I guess I just.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Was your husband picking up on this, like the writings on the wall?

[Amber Rae]

Okay.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think, like, I. I truly believe.

[Amber Rae]

That, like a part of him, the way that he loved me, was that he wanted me to experience the best love that I could experience. And I think he knew on some level, of course, that like, like that was not what we had. And so he was watching me, like, almost like fall in love, real love for the first time. And he even said, like, I'm happy for you. Although this, like, you know, if the roles were reversed, like, this wouldn't feel good for you. But then at one moment, like in the midst of this, he like, meets a woman and has a connection with her and then comes to me, he's like, I feel like I met my John. I, like, had my hand on her thigh and I was worried you were going to like, walk up. And I was like, actually, that makes.

[Ashley Hess]

Me happy for you.

[Amber Rae]

Bizarre. I mean, that's why it was just like this bizarre. Like, okay, now that we're like, open and seeing what our relationship is more clearly, like, at one point he's like, what if John became your boyfriend and we opened our marriage? And I was like, okay, if we opened our marriage, you would be my best friend. You would not be romantic at all. I'm not like, gonna go be with John and bring that into our marriage. I was like, John would be my, like, partner, my friend. And actually you like, proposing. That is very clarifying. It was just a very illuminating, like, roller coaster.

[Raina Greenberg]

So I'm curious, like, where your husband was in all, even the 10 years prior? Like, did he feel that his needs were being met? Were you the only person that was out here being like, sure about this? Or was he like, maybe there's more for me too? Like, what does he feel all these years?

[Amber Rae]

I feel like if one person is self abandoning in the relationship, like my friend said, like, liberation is a two way street. Like, when you liberate yourself, you liberate the other. I also think if one person is self abandoning, then that can also be a pattern. And so I imagine that he, you know, if you're only having sex twice a year, I, you know, I'd hope he would want sex more than that. Unless he's just an asexual person. I don't know. But, like, I can't imagine his needs were fully being met either.

[Raina Greenberg]

But you guys haven't really discussed that.

[Amber Rae]

We never, like, went into that, you know, and he met, he's now remarried and, like, has moved on in his life. We more like acknowledge, like, how much we were in the story of our relationship rather than the reality of it. And, like, you know, that, like, meeting John was a wake up call because he realized how asleep he was in our marriage. And like, so we had more of the, like, honest, like, what it was. But I wasn't like, why didn't we have sex?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You know, or just like, why did.

[Ashley Hess]

You let this happen?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You know, like, you were asking yourself is like, how did I let this happen for nine years? Like, I'd be curious if you know the answer. I'm curious what his answer is.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah, I'm curious too, but, like, and I don't want to speak for him, but totally.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

We understand.

[Raina Greenberg]

All right? We'll have him on you, and then we'll get John on, and then we'll get through it with everybody.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

So you're like, I realize I'm in love with John, or I want to be with John.

[Ashley Hess]

I love John.

[Raina Greenberg]

Do you start negotiating with yourself? Like, like, do I leave? Do I say, what does it mean? How's it going to feel? Like, what is the self talk?

[Amber Rae]

Massively negotiated myself. Like, this is insane. He's a stranger. You've known him for three weeks. What are you going to, like, leave something you've been in for nine years for this, like, sexy guy that you feel connected with? Like, you know, there was. And what the hell are people are going to think? And, you know, I think there was a lot of shame or, like, leaving someone for someone else. Like, how awful and how terrible of a person and how selfish I must be to just be like, sorry, bye. You know, granted, like, it's so much more nuanced than that because, like, you know, some could argue that, like, we've left the relationship far before the marriage ended.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Amber Rae]

But, like, those are the voices, the critical voices in my head. What are people gonna think? Like, this is crazy. And I called a girlfriend of mine and, like, kind of told her, here's everything that I think and I'm falling in love with this person and oh my God, what do I do? And people are gonna judge me. And she was like, yeah, people are gonna have feelings about it, but like, like, that's not yours. And she ultimately was like, liberation is a two way street. No one benefits from you being half in on the relationship. So you making the courageous choice will align each person to the right thing. And, like, don't delay the inevitable. Like, you got well and I'm over here.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Like, your husband sees it like, that's.

[Ashley Hess]

The whole thing that.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's just like when he. To me, if I were. If I'm putting myself in your shoes, like the second he's like, well, maybe.

[Ashley Hess]

You should date John and we should.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Be open, I'd be like, okay, now I have my permission.

[Ashley Hess]

Let's call it like, I don't. I don't know. I'm just like, like, this is a very different situation.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Like you said, there's so much nuance. This is not you in a marriage where your husband was in the dark and you're sneaking around. It's very different.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah, it was very out in the open. I was not hiding.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I've never heard of anything like this. It's just like, I know.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, he was. You agree?

[Ashley Hess]

John and I are meant to be together.

[Raina Greenberg]

I actually thought, I mean, I knew where your book was going, but had I not watched clips and read other interviews, I would have been like, do they become a throuple? I. I mean, your husband was just around for a lot of this.

[Amber Rae]

I know, I know. My agent, I was like texting my agent as it was happening. She's like, has there been an orgy?

[Ashley Hess]

Put that in the book. That's.

[Amber Rae]

I was like, unfortunately, that is not the dynamic here. But yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So you separated with your husband and like, the short story is you're now obviously married with John and your husband is remarried. And how long has have you guys been married?

[Amber Rae]

Almost three in November.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

I want to go back to something you said which is like the relationship had been over for a long time. And I think that a lot of people are very judgmental of others when they move on super quickly. And to me, it is a really one size fits one type of thing. And for many, many people, they've been in loveless relationships, sexless relationships, then it's been over for a long time. There's no specific prescribed amount of time. I need to heal before moving on to somebody.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah, I agree. I couldn't agree more. And like, I Think women in particular, we grieve while we're in things. Because when we finally had. The conversation ended, I wasn't filled with grief. I was filled with relief because I finally honored myself and did the thing that, like, I knew I needed to do. And I realized, like, all those years of me, like, asking for something and not being met, like, all of those, and like, the frustration and the loneliness and, like, the sadness and that all of those periods, it's like, oh, I grieve this one. I. I was in it. And so, yeah, that's why it feels easy, so easy to leave. And that's why I feel ready to move on. I've, like. I've, like, healed what I needed to heal and process what I needed to process while I was in the relationship.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And all of those judgments are such projections. And we'll talk about this, too, with responses. And the reason why people say those things. How could you move on so quickly? Is because they're fearing that it would happen to them and that their partner or their future partner would blindside them and leave them and move on so quickly, not taking into account that this is not what happened here. And even if it was, it's really not your business. And everybody has a different story. And there's, like, you know, you don't always know all the details. And so I always think that. And I'm sure you've dealt with that a lot with things that people have said, and it's. You can feel where it comes from. Like, I can feel it. Like, I see people commenting or judging on whatever story it is, and you're like, that is so about you and your fears and insecurities that we all have that you're projecting onto to someone else without taking into account all of.

[Ashley Hess]

The details of their story.

[Amber Rae]

Absolutely. It tells me much more about their pain than it does about my own story. But that doesn't make it. At first, when I was leaving, it was this circle of friends in our community, and some people really got it, were like, go, Amber. Yes, I'm so happy for you. And other people were like, you're the most selfish person ever. I mean, said crazy things. And, you know, I, like, got defensive, and I tried to explain myself, and if they understood the story and if they knew that he was, like, involved in the ending, and I was like, if I can just help them understand, maybe then they'll get it. And, you know, I think what I realized is that I didn't need anyone to get it, because I thought that mattered. And I Can't. And no amount of explaining actually helped them get it because it was about their own pain.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yep. Absolutely. Did you have people in your life that are no longer in your life? Cause they just couldn't understand it at the time.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah, I've probably lost like a dozen relationships.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Really?

[Amber Rae]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think there's a lot of judgment that comes with it. I mean, there's a clip that Vienna Faran posted with you, and it's a lot of the comments on the post, and it's people saying stuff like, well, marriage is hard and this is selfish. And to Ashley's point and your point, that's everyone else's shit. And no one else will live your life besides you. Do and. And quantify selfish. To me, wanting to be happy. I was unhappy for 10 years. I haven't. I hit my quota of unhappy.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

The thing that bothers me the most in life is you didn't hear the story, you didn't read the story. You didn't. Like, like, if someone's listening to this now and they are having judgments, I.

[Ashley Hess]

Would be like, what would you do? You would've stayed in it.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Cause here we are, you're in this happy marriage.

[Ashley Hess]

Your husband is too. We have a happy ending here.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Two people that were in a relationship.

[Ashley Hess]

Where they weren't being fulfilled are now in relationships where they're being fulfilled. It's just like, what else do you. Yeah. What would you have wanted the outcome to be? I get so fired up about this.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah. So anyway, most of the judgments come from people not knowing the actual story, being like, oh, she just left a good man and, like, went for another man.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Like, of course they just have this.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. The.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

The headline, I guess the clickbait as all of the information.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think life is really long. And what a depressing thing to think that just because someone might think gets quote, unquote selfish, we're just going to stay with one person that doesn't make us happy forever. People live longer than they ever have. I'm going to be stuck with somebody for 70 years.

[Ashley Hess]

And why would you want to be.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

With someone who isn't happy with you or doesn't want to be with you? You know, like, reserve your judgments for people who just. Donald Trump, abandon their kids or their.

[Ashley Hess]

Pets if you want. You know, so it's just like. But another grown person who let them go off and find their person. I don't know.

[Raina Greenberg]

So I'm curious what the shift was, because it sounds all very, like, easy cut and dry. Like my husband said, I was so happy. And then he was like, be free, little bird.

[Amber Rae]

But I mean, and it wasn't, it was a roller coaster and like he swung back and forth and then like him and John confronted each other. Like it was, oh, yeah, it's in the book. But there, you know, there was some part of him was like, I'm happy for you. But it was also like, like there were a lot of feelings. It wasn't, it was messy.

[Raina Greenberg]

I want to talk about your feelings though, because it sounds like as a lifelong person that says, like, push the feelings down. I'm fine. How did, how did you change? I think there's people that are like, okay, well, like, was John the change? Were you the change? Like, how did you decide to get out of there?

[Amber Rae]

Yeah, no. You know, and I didn't know if John was the love of my life. You know, I had this feeling of like, he's my person, but, like, was he just the catalyst for me to leave this unhappy marriage or is he really the person that I'm to like, build a life with? And I didn't know. And, but what I did know is that I no longer wanted to be in that marriage. And that was a choice I was making for me. And that was the self honoring thing. And so I think it really paved the way for I am no longer going to abandon myself. I am no longer going to disappoint myself so that I don't disappoint others. And I am going to have to tolerate the discomfort of other people being mad at me and of other people not approving of my choices. And like, that's okay. And like, for me as this harmonizer and pleaser because that's how I stayed safe in my early environments, it was like the scariest thing because, ooh, I might, you know, we're. We're wired to belong. And so belonging for me was in everybody being okay. And so the big lesson was like, am I okay? What do I want? What do I need? Is this serving me? Is this true to me? Which was so easy for my, me and my career, but is what I had to learn to do in love? And I think, you know, the, the title of the book is Loveable Love Able. Because me learning, that's how I learned to love myself. And I feel like, can we really love another when we haven't yet learned to like, love ourselves in that way? Like, I have and I, this is speaking to younger me, but like, you know, friends who are in that, like, pleaser don't want to disappoint me. They're like, not direct. They don't say what they need, need. Like I'm like unclear where they stand and it's very hard. Like it's uncomfortable. I'm like, just tell me, you know, and that's like earlier me. Whereas, like, just tell me what you want, Tell me what you need. Tell me if something's a yes or no. Like, disappoint me.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Like, help me help you.

[Ashley Hess]

Help me help me.

[Amber Rae]

Like I want you to do you. Even if you think like I might have feelings about it, like, I can handle those feelings. You don't need to have those feelings. And so I think it's like I've. That has really like become my like, way of being in the world, which I think serves everyone around me.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I'm curious how you have changed in this relationship and how you've found yourself. You haven't abandoned yourself. It sounded like you felt fulfilled in your career and you were happy with your career before in your previous marriage. But I'm just curious of how it's changed. You feel like a different person in your personality, how you interact with others in your career. Like, it feels like you've really found yourself. And I always like to see how that manifests in other ways.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah, you know, I think I'm not like trying to prove I'm not. I don't have that. Like, I need to achieve this to be worthy or if I accomplish this next big thing, I'm not looking for that sense of okayness outside of myself. I feel like I've found that within. And so the things that I create come from a place of like, this is meaningful to me and is an expression of what's, what's important versus like, like, will this resonate? Will others like this? I'm not, you know, my gaze, I feel like is less outward and it's more inward. And then, you know, here I was on the other side of a nine year sexist marriage and now I'm getting into a relationship with a sexy man.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And yeah, that'll, that'll do it. That will light you up.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm sure people notice.

[Amber Rae]

But wait, but wait. But we commit our lives to each other and we have not yet kids kissed and I decided to move down LA and to move in with him. And so he picks me up at LA with all of my things and like we have our first kiss. But I am terrified that, yeah, I'm terrified that like if I can't, like I'm so out of touch with that part of myself because I haven't been in touch with that part of myself that I was like, oh my God, what am I gonna, I don't even know how to, how do I do bedroom? I don't like, what do I do with this penis?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, like what's a penis? At one point you're like a born again physician.

[Amber Rae]

I was like, what do I do with this penis? And she's like, you grab it, my friends.

[Ashley Hess]

But it was like I was like.

[Amber Rae]

I felt like a 16 year old girl and I was like, oh God, if I like can't measure up or like I felt like we were equals in a lot of areas of our life. But like if I can't measure up in the bedroom, will he leave me? And so all of these abandonment anxieties from my childhood that I never felt because I chose relationships where I wouldn't have to feel that them came to the surface. And so what I, I thought I was like easy breezy, met my person, woo, yay, now finally left that marriage. Like, you know, leaving was as much the hard part as like learning how to stay when it felt scary.

[Ashley Hess]

Wow.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean we're laughing, but I do imagine that's a real fear of like relearning the skill. And is it really like riding a bike? Like am I still a sexual person? Can I be a different person in this relationship? Will it go back to the way it was with my ex husband?

[Ashley Hess]

All of that.

[Amber Rae]

That totally all of that. And like, yeah, I don't know, what do I do with my body in this bed? And you going to think I'm.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm sure you figured it out, right?

[Raina Greenberg]

Tell us about the sex.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It is like riding a bike.

[Ashley Hess]

You figure that out?

[Amber Rae]

Yeah, I just needed to get out of my head. I was like so in my head of like, oh God, am I doing okay? Is he liking this? Like, do I look okay? Does he like, yeah, Am I like, am I, do I need a movie? Like practice in front of a mirror one time. So embarrassing. And then he saw me and I was like, you're.

[Ashley Hess]

You'Re like, oh, it's just warming up for sex.

[Raina Greenberg]

I would practice other stuff. I mean, it's a skill you have to flex.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Amber Rae]

So we figured it out Great.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, yeah. We have a kid, so I would assume.

[Ashley Hess]

Right, it worked out.

[Raina Greenberg]

What do you want people to take from this book?

[Amber Rae]

Yeah, I want people. You know, I think, yes, this is a story of me leaving my marriage, but I think it's more than that. It's you know, more than a love story. It's a self love and self liberation story. And I think we sometimes find ourselves trapped. Trapped in the lives that we've created. Whether that's like, could be a job, a relationship, it could be a friendship, it can be an aspect of ourselves, an identity that we've outgrown. And we kind of get to a moment where, like, wait, and we feel disconnected from ourselves or we feel afraid to choose ourselves because of what other people might think. And I want people to, you know, make the choices that are right and true for them. I want them to, you know, maybe in another life. There is no other life. So, like, grab hold of this one and make the brave choice and do the thing that's right for you. Even if people are going to have feelings about it. Because at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is how you feel about your life.

[Ashley Hess]

I think that's so beautiful. It's really beautiful.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Like, I think we're all. I don't know, most of us, you know, don't want to run around hurting people or causing harm. But you do have to put yourself first. You have to put on your oxygen.

[Ashley Hess]

Mask before you help others.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Like, you do have to prioritize your own happiness. And. And unfortunately, there can be some collateral damage. And I think we all move through life hoping that it's minimal.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah. Yeah, we don't. Yeah, we can, like, allow people's pain and hurt to touch us, but that doesn't mean that we need to do things at the expense of ourselves.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. And I think it's important to acknowledge, you know, yes, you met this man, and it feels like to other people, maybe optically a rash decision, but it wasn't. I think you asked yourself every day for a decade, am I happy? Do I want to be here? It wasn't just about meeting John. Eventually this would have blown up some way. Yeah, he just helped kind of speed it along.

[Amber Rae]

Totally.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. We know you have a book launch party tonight.

[Amber Rae]

I wish you guys were here.

[Raina Greenberg]

I know we would be there too.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

But tell everybody where they can find the book. Follow you all the things you want to plug, any events, whatever you got going on.

[Amber Rae]

Lovable is available everywhere. Books are sold. Amber. A.com has all my offerings and I'm. Hey, Amber. Ray on Instagram.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, perfect.

[Raina Greenberg]

Thank you for everything. This is really special.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

This really was.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. So you guys get the book.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You're gonna love it. And, you know, thank you for your.

[Raina Greenberg]

Time and have fun tonight.

[Amber Rae]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Raina Greenberg]

Bye.

[Amber Rae]

Bye.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, well, we hope you guys enjoyed that interview. You can find [e-mail] you can get tickets to our holiday shows. We are so excited. We're doing one in New York and one in la. That's it. So grab those. They are going to be such a blast. They're going to be so iconic, so legendary. You guys are going to be sad if you missed it. Girls got eat.com also on Squarespace.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's where built iconic and legendary sound like what Nick Cannon name is, kids.

[Ashley Hess]

One of them is named legendary Legendary love.

[Raina Greenberg]

One of them is probably named iconic Iconic princess. What does he say? Princess Muffin or Queen Princess Rihanna.

[Ashley Hess]

Keep this in girls Gotty podcast on Instagram and tick tock. I'm Ash Hess. Raina is Raina Greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend and we will see you Thursday.

[Raina Greenberg]

Have a great week, guys.

[Ashley Hess]

Sam.