America's Next Top Model Cycle 9: Sarah Hartshorne's Memoir

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast Episode Summary: America's Next Top Model Cycle 9: Sarah Hartshorne's Memoir Release Date: July 29, 2025
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: H. Allen Scott

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast, host Chelsea Devantez delves deep into Sarah Hartshorne's memoir, "You Wanna Be on Top: A Memoir of Makeovers, Manipulation, and Not Becoming America's Next Top Model." Released on July 8th, 2025, the book offers an unfiltered, behind-the-scenes look at Hartshorne's tumultuous experience during Cycle 9 of America's Next Top Model (ANTM).

Guest Introduction

Chelsea is joined by H. Allen Scott, a multifaceted comedian, writer, and pop culture aficionado. Scott brings a wealth of experience from hosting Newsweek's Parting Shot podcast and Out on the Lanai, a Golden Girls podcast. Their diverse background, including appearances on shows like Jimmy Kimmel and Ellen, and starring in the documentary Latter Day Jew, provides a unique perspective to the conversation.

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Overview of Sarah Hartshorne's Memoir

Sarah Hartshorne's memoir chronicles her journey on ANTM Cycle 9, highlighting the intense pressures, manipulative production tactics, and the personal struggles she faced. The book is lauded for its raw honesty, offering readers an inside look at the dark side of reality television.

Notable Quote:
"Watching her season, you can see the show desperately trying to get back to the relevance it previously had early on in the early boom."
— H. Allen Scott [05:37]

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America's Next Top Model Cycle 9: An Unfiltered Look

Cycle 9 is depicted as a turning point for ANTM, where the show’s original charm gave way to increasingly sensational and manipulative practices to maintain viewer interest.

Notable Quote:
"My mouth was dry and my mind was spinning as I did my best not to show it. You are like. You are like. Like you have. I was sputtering."
— Sarah Hartshorne (as discussed by Chelsea) [46:13]

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Production Practices and House Rules

The podcast delves into the stringent and often dehumanizing house rules imposed on contestants, such as mandatory being mic'd up at all times, restricted communication, and enforced silence.

Key Points:

• Mic’ing Up: Contestants were required to wear microphones at all times, especially during private moments, fostering an environment of constant surveillance.
  Quote:
  "We were to get miked before coffee, before a shower, and certainly before speaking to anyone."
  — Chelsea Devantez [33:13]

• Limited Communication: Contestants could only speak to each other when cameras were rolling, leading to prolonged periods of isolation and psychological strain.
  Quote:
  "They were not allowed to speak to each other unless the cameras were rolling."
  — Chelsea Devantez [34:07]

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Treatment of Contestants

The memoir exposes the harsh treatment contestants endured, including sleep deprivation, emotional manipulation, and unethical handling of personal crises.

Key Incidents:

• Psych Evaluations: Designed more as tools for producers to assess contestants' compliance rather than genuine psychological support.
  Quote:
  "I wouldn't say it's manipulative because it is a part of the process. But I also fully understand that it is not an actual logistical psychological evaluation."
  — H. Allen Scott [18:58]

• Emotional Manipulation: Contestants like Ebony faced extreme emotional abuse, including being sent home abruptly and threatened with lawsuits to ensure silence.
  Quote:
  "We will sue your entire family. We'll sue your children."
  — Producer (as recounted by Sarah) [21:23]

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Body Image and Disordered Eating

Hartshorne's struggle with body image and the pervasive diet culture on ANTM is a central theme, reflecting broader societal issues.

Discussion Points:

• Fluctuating Weight: Sarah's inconsistent weight allowed producers to manipulate her image, oscillating between vulnerability and empowerment.
  Quote:
  "As someone who didn't know if she wanted to be a model who tipped the scales at 160 pounds, I had no idea what to say."
  — Chelsea Devantez [10:52]

• Diet Culture: Strict dietary restrictions and the introduction of body image experts pushed contestants into unhealthy eating habits, exacerbating disorders.
  Quote:
  "I'm sorry, what they're doing is... They want to see her hungry because everyone loves a fat, hungry person."
  — H. Allen Scott [56:18]

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Tyra Banks and the Judges

The role of Tyra Banks as the head judge and her interactions with contestants are scrutinized, highlighting both her influence and the toxic dynamics on set.

Key Insights:

• Tyra's Dual Role: While Tyra aimed to mentor, her rigid control and scripted behavior often masked the underlying manipulative tactics.
  Quote:
  "Tyra, you're a brand. You're famous."
  — H. Allen Scott [41:39]

• Judges' Harshness: Judges like Twiggy exhibited unprofessional behavior, adding to the pressure and trauma experienced by contestants.
  Quote:
  "She would say things to Sarah's face like, 'You look really beautiful in that photograph,' which is shocking."
  — Chelsea Devantez [50:07]

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Effects of Reality TV on Contestants

The conversation explores the long-term psychological impact on contestants, including loss of self-identity and ongoing trauma.

Personal Reflections:

• Trauma and Recovery: Sarah's journey post-show involved extensive therapy and self-discovery to reclaim her identity and heal from the experiences on ANTM.
  Quote:
  "The biggest thing I had to learn was how to see the world through my own eyes instead of constantly focusing on how the world viewed me."
  — Sarah Hartshorne [78:58]

• Industry Reflections: Both Chelsea and H. Allen discuss the broader entertainment industry's exploitative nature and the necessity for change to protect individuals from similar traumas.
  Quote:
  "There are lots of lanes and you can even make your own lane and figure out your own way."
  — H. Allen Scott [76:03]

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Industry Insights and Personal Anecdotes

The episode touches on the parallels between ANTM and other reality shows, emphasizing systemic issues within the industry.

Stories Shared:

• Comparisons with Other Shows: Discussions include parallels with Survivor and RuPaul's Drag Race, highlighting recurring themes of manipulation and contestant exploitation.
  Quote:
  "It's a very interesting pop culture nugget that I think is valuable and created language and formats for different shows to come."
  — H. Allen Scott [75:14]

• Personal Experiences: Both hosts share their own struggles within the entertainment industry, drawing connections to the systemic pressures faced by reality TV contestants.
  Quote:
  "I do think it holds... that created language and formats for different shows to come."
  — H. Allen Scott [75:14]

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Conclusion and Book Test

Chelsea and H. Allen conclude with a "Book Test," evaluating Hartshorne's memoir on vulnerability, entertainment value, and its ability to elevate their lives.

Book Test Results:

1. Was the author vulnerable in sharing her truth?
   Yes.

2. Was it entertaining to read?
   Yes, very much so.

3. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?
   Yes, it provided valuable insights into the realities of competition-based reality TV and personal trauma.

Final Thoughts:
The episode underscores the importance of understanding the behind-the-scenes realities of reality television and its profound impact on individuals. Sarah Hartshorne's memoir serves as both a cautionary tale and a call for more humane practices within the industry.

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Where to Listen:
For more in-depth conversations and exclusive content, subscribe to Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast on Patreon and Apple Podcasts.

Credits:
Special thanks to senior managing producer Christina Lopez, executive producer Jordan Moncada, sound engineer Marcus Hamm, and associate producer Jaron Padre. Gratitude also extends to partners Thrive Cosmetics and EveryPlate.

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Disclaimer:
This summary is intended for informational purposes and reflects the discussions and insights shared during the podcast episode. For a comprehensive understanding, listening to the full episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Chelsea Devontez]

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[H. Allen Scott]

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[Chelsea Devontez]

Of $45 for a three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com welcome to glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea Devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today we are book clubbing. You Wanna Be on Top A Memoir of Makeovers, Manipulation and Not Becoming America's Next Top Model by Sarah Hartshorn. She was in season nine of America's Top Model. She has now written a tell all play by play of what that season was like. I was riveted. The book was just published on July 8th and we have an entire conversation with Sarah herself about some extra BTs and questions I had for her. It is up right now for subscribers on Patreon and Apple podcast subscriptions. So go check that out after the episode. Now this book. It has Tyra Banks tea, queer coming out stories and reality TV tales that are honestly unbelievable. And please know there is a trigger warning for disordered eating and diet culture discussion. So please take care when listening and let's dive in. My guest today is H. Allen Scott. They are a comedian, writer and pop culture know it all. Who's never been wrong. Don't fact check that. They host Newsweek's Parting Shop podcast and out on the Lanai, a Golden Girls podcast. They've appeared on shows like Jimmy Kimmel, Ellen and starred in the Documentary, Latter Day Jew, which follows their journey from being raised Mormon to converting to Judaism, surviving cancer, and celebrating their bar mitzvah.

[H. Allen Scott]

Sorry.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That is unbelievable. When are you writing a memoir?

[H. Allen Scott]

After I had cancer a while back. I'm fine. I got a lot of offers, but I don't know. I feel like I need to be older.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I wrote one.

[H. Allen Scott]

I know, and yours is amazing. I know I need to do it. Maybe we'll talk book agents after this.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I think we should introduce all my guests who are friends of mine, with the story of how we first met.

[H. Allen Scott]

Can I wait before you even get to that, I'm sorry, I'm taking over your podcast. Can I just say how much I love you and how much I love that you're doing this podcast and you're putting. Because the. From the moment we met, I have always thought this girl needs, like, this personality, needs to be on everything. You are so much fun. So I'm just so glad to be with you today, but also that you're doing this.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Wow. That's how I feel about you. And. Okay, so this is my memory of us meeting. I don't even know if you'll have the other piece of it. I just have an image of being, I think, in the audience at the Virgil, but I'm standing up, and I think we're talking about Golden Girls.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes. Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And that's it. And I'm like, how'd we get there? Let me tell you, Find each other.

[H. Allen Scott]

I don't know how we got there. I don't know how it found each other, but I know why we connected. Because when I'm in a room like the Virgil, often surrounded by heterosexuals, I immediately go to the girl that's gonna understand my Sephora addiction, who's gonna understand my Golden Girl's background, who maybe is gonna take a moment to understand that we need to make fun of the straight men surrounding us. And that is why I immediately went to you, because that's just what I do. That's my safe space. That's my trauma reaction in spaces, is to immediately, not necessarily always go for the girl, but go for the one that I know immediately is gonna be like, we can talk about lip gloss. We can probably talk about politics and probably can talk about someone shitty.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You know what I talk all the time about? How my dearest friends came from sharing a lip gloss in a strange space.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That must have been us, because we were complete strangers. And then we sort of watched you online, become an icon. And so I was just looking for A book so I could drag you on this podcast and reconnect.

[H. Allen Scott]

I will always go anywhere you tell me to. I'm a big champion of yours. And I loved. I have to say, this is. This is the type of person that I am because I. I talked for a living. But, like, yes, we got notes. Things are. Things are documented. There are things. There's. I wrote over this because I did really enjoy this. But what I also enjoyed about this so much is that it wasn't necessarily like a trash book. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't. It was kind of almost like. And this is something that I love about what I do online. What. What you and I bond over is the nostalgia for, like, a different time. You know what I mean? And. And what Sarah does in this book so, so, so well, is that she takes us back to that era of reality television and gives us a glimpse behind the scenes, but also reminds us how fucked up that era was, but how fascinating it was, too.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, I think that is so well said because I. I went back and rewatched her season for this episode, and I. I really don't even have words. I was watching it. I was like, I can't believe this was ever on TV like it is.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

America's Next Top Model is unbelievable. Like, they should have put everyone in jail every single episode.

[H. Allen Scott]

You know what's crazy is I watched America's Next Top Model very casually back in the day, but it was on in an era when I was a young, poor person trying to exist in the world of comedy in a not great way because of all the straight dudes I previously mentioned. And so I didn't have a lot of money to be able to keep watching America's Next Top Model because I didn't have a television in New York for a long time. So it wasn't a part of necessarily my experience. But my boyfriend and one of my best friends, Naomi, they both bond because they grew up. They are of the generation. They're like 10 years younger than me, brag that they grew up on America's Next Top Model, and it is their vocabulary. As soon as I told them I was doing this, they told me every last detail about Sarah, about this season, about literally everything.

[Chelsea Devontez]

They know their take on season nine because, you know, the show's been going for a while at this point, but it has fully peaked and petered out.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes, they were like, it's fucked up. That era is fucked up. But you can also see that because the show isn't where it was when it started, and it became the juggernaut that it was very early on. And I think you see this in watching Sarah's season. You can see the show desperately trying to get back to the relevance that it previously had early on in the early boom, you know.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, absolutely. And they're doing so many stunts. Like, for some reason, they put all the girls on a cruise ship to find the first 10 or whatever. And then they're filming scenes of, like, this can't go in your luggage and get on the cruise ship. And I've worked on a cruise ship. Like, they have.

[H. Allen Scott]

Like, have you?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, it's pretty intense, but it's like, there's a lot of international logistics to that also that they can just, like, have the gimmick of a cruise ship. And then her season is about, like, environmental conservative, like, conservatism pro, you know, try and fight against climate change. But then they're on a cruise ship.

[H. Allen Scott]

On a cruise ship, which one of the worst things.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And so it makes no sense.

[H. Allen Scott]

You can totally take this out if you need to, but have you watched that documentary about the missing Amy on Netflix?

[Chelsea Devontez]

I watched it last night. Chris derosa told me to.

[H. Allen Scott]

Chelsea.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, okay, so listen, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna plug my own shit. I. I shot a pilot, an independent pilot this year about my time working on a cruise ship called Maritime.

[H. Allen Scott]

Can I watch it?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, my God. I will link you. And it's called Maritime because people don't realize that when you're on the waters, it's maritime law.

[H. Allen Scott]

There are everything.

[Chelsea Devontez]

No laws. Maritime law means if someone gets murdered, we investigate it, if we feel like it.

[H. Allen Scott]

It's quite literally the gay bar, like, half an hour before last call. Like, anything goes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Anything goes. And to keep the crew members happy and to stop us from rioting and to kind of quell all the mobs that run. It's like a constant race war. And that's a joke, but also very serious. They would sell us bottles of wine for a dollar and beers for 20 so that, like, everyone working would just kind of drink their lives away.

[H. Allen Scott]

It was like a shooting of the Housewives franchise or something. Like, just get them as drunk as possible and fight, fight, fight.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes. And these top bottles go on the cruise ship when there's a real cruise going on. And the. The thing that made me laugh so much is that cruise ships play 24. Seven.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Mambo number five. And who let the Dogs Out? And they can't get them to turn off the music for filming I mean, just what a nightmare. What an absolute nightmare.

[H. Allen Scott]

When I was reading that part of the book with the cruise, because I. I get offered especially Golden Girl stuff. I get offered cruise stuff a lot. And no, I don't, because it terrifies me. I'm worried about dying, but I'm more so worried because I'm the type of bitch, like, after a show, a meet and greet situation, I won't stick around. Not because I don't like the people who are in the crowd, but because I have intense anxiety. So the idea of being stuck on a cruise with people who just saw me perform, sometimes in drag, sometimes not, that's terrifying. I don't want to be stuck with anyone.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, do. Absolutely do not go on a cruise. And I will say I was on there when I was 24 and unmedicated. And if there's. There are a group of people who witness me in that state who were like, the craziest bitch alive has a job. Like, how did that woman continue her life?

[H. Allen Scott]

Loraza Pan all day.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Okay. So the big thing with Sarah and what I loved reading about, even when it was painful, is that she fluctuates between a size 6 and a size 12, according to the book. And everyone is like, you should be a model. And she kind of doesn't really have a gauge on what that means for her. And also, you should be a model is such a ubiquitous phrase. And we have a Dringo, which is where you drink and take one of our memoir bingos, because of course, we get an exact weight drop on page 17. That is the number one dringo of every book. And she said, as someone who didn't know if she wanted to be a model who tipped the scales at 160 pounds, I had no idea what to say. Luckily, I was given a lot of time to come up with something. I sat there for six hours before she goes into the audition. And Sarah basically is their plus size contestant of this season.

[H. Allen Scott]

They always had one. So, I mean, on one hand, here's the thing. On one hand, I'm disgusted by it as a. As a fat person, but on the other hand, I am also, like, very, very aware of the era and the culture in which we were living in. What year was this?

[Chelsea Devontez]

This was like, this was 2007. So, you know, not that long ago. It's like two decades ago. Ground, ground us in time of where we are.

[H. Allen Scott]

Okay, so Obama had given the speech, but he wasn't quite president yet. Yet still. I remember men who rejected me in 2007. Like that's how fresh it is in my mind.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I could probably recite one of the monologues I used to do auditions with. Like, that's just still.

[H. Allen Scott]

Right?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And so. And yet when you look back, you're like, whoa, this was brutal. And trying to fuck during those times, which I consider coming of age years for us.

[H. Allen Scott]

I mean, it really, it very much was coming up. I think I was doing. I mean, I was definitely doing standup in New York at this time. Desperately trying to, you know, can I be crude here? Can I be crude?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, you can extra be crude.

[H. Allen Scott]

Desperately trying to suck a dick after the show. Like, I was doing everything.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, gosh, no wonder we like each other. I was also desperately trying to suck dick. And people just, people are like, yeah, but of course you could. No, no.

[H. Allen Scott]

I tried for so many days.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That turned me down.

[H. Allen Scott]

Pun intended. But it was hard.

[Chelsea Devontez]

When you're funny, they don't want your funny lips on their dick. They don't like that.

[H. Allen Scott]

I found a niche. It's another episode, but it's desperate straight men. But. But that was my niche.

[Chelsea Devontez]

We'll be back to script that if a producer is listening, we're right here. So yes, she's basically the plus size contestant. And listen, it's so hard to determine like, you know, what's a straight size? What's a plus size? What, what? Where are we at with body image? In a terrible place. And we were even worse back then. And I think watching this footage back, it's so shocking to see that she was their plus size contestant and she was supposed to be pushing body positivity forward because she just looks so similar to all of the other girls. It really made me think about how Jessica Simpson, when she was in those jeans at like a cook off and we all called her fat and we all did. And I mean the magazines did and we just read it and said okay. But reading in her memoir and looking back at those pictures and realizing she was a size 4 at the time. And that's kind of the feeling I had when I was reading about Sarah's season. But then watching it on screen, we.

[H. Allen Scott]

Were so disgusting in this era. I look back at now cause I'm doing a thing on Freakier Friday. And I've been looking back at a lot of the interviews with Lindsay Lohan and stuff. And I just, I'm just appalled at how oftentimes straight older men would talk to some of these women in pop culture and in that era and how disgusting and blatant and how nowadays HR would fire that person if those questions were asked or put on air or done anything with. Like, they would.

[Chelsea Devontez]

They would. They are 25.

[H. Allen Scott]

I mean, 20.

[Chelsea Devontez]

20.

[H. Allen Scott]

Maybe. 20. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. I don't know.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I don't know.

[H. Allen Scott]

I really don't know. I would hope so.

[Chelsea Devontez]

We're lost in the sauce right now. We really are as bad as. And I think that's the other thing that I asked there about in the interview, which is that we hear now that reality TV filming conditions are horrible for the people who go on them. Well, if they've gotten better, where they started is horrific. On season nine, she writes this after a few days after arriving in Puerto Rico, I found myself blindfolded and forbidden to speak on a bus full of other young, sweaty, beautiful girls. There are a lot of moments from my time filming America's Next Top Model that, looking back, didn't age well. But even at the time, this felt deranged. And basically they were not allowed to speak to each other unless the cameras were rolling. So they would sit in rooms with each other in silence for sometimes up to 17 hours a day. Okay, this feels like a good time to take a quick break. After Zoomies at the dog park, it's time for drive up at Target. In goes a big bag of kibble and one squeaky chicken toy for the good boy. Drive up. That's ready when you are. Only in the Target app. Just tap target.

[H. Allen Scott]

The McDonald's Snack Wrap is back. You brought it back. Ranch snack wrap. Spicy snack wrap. You broke the Internet for a snack? Snack wrap is back. Ba da ba ba ba.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Might have been born just playing my trash. Okay, let's dive back into the episode.

[H. Allen Scott]

Chelsea. I watch a lot of documentaries and made for television movies often starring Mira Sorvino about human trafficking. And this is what this sounds like. It sounds like an episode from a Mira Sorvino Lifetime television movie about human trafficking.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, and they keep them awake because you might film. There's multiple accounts where she's like, can I go to the bathroom? And some you feel sad because it's some young PA who's working for the corporation. And they're like, don't let them go pee. And then some young PA is like, I'm sorry, you can't go pee. Yeah, you cannot smell speak. Also, they would sometimes give them their ipods and they had to beg to get their books, like to get a book to read. So they would just be sitting there doing nothing.

[H. Allen Scott]

It sounds like some producer saw George Bush's like torture during the Iraq war stuff, and was like, you know what? Not all bad ideas.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, could be good.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, I have to ask you about this. So they. They take a psych evaluation, which we all know they do for all this.

[H. Allen Scott]

Have you had to do this? I've had to do this.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, so here's. Here's my question for you. She wrote some of the questions down like they were asking her, like, do you think people are trying to get you to change your mind? How many people in the world do you think cheat on their taxes? Things like that. I was asked that exact last question on my application at Target. I am not joking. I had to take a Target.

[H. Allen Scott]

Wow.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So basically, like, when you applied to work at Target and this was what? I don't know, when I was like, 18.

[H. Allen Scott]

God, I wanted to work at Target so badly.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay. They. I didn't get a call back. And you. You. You went to those digital screens, right. And you have to take this, like, 20, 20 question test before Target will like, let you work there.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And I now realize that on questions where it would say, like, how many people cheat on their taxes? When I wrote probably everybody, that was an indicator that I would cheat their rules.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And you had to press the button that says no one cheats or like, only a little bit so that you don't believe in breaking rules.

[H. Allen Scott]

Insane.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Insane. So that's just what I had to do for Target. And a longer version is what she had to do for America's Next Top Model. What was your test like?

[H. Allen Scott]

It was similar. I mean, when I won't say what it was for because Wink.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But desperate straight men.

[H. Allen Scott]

But you can tell because, like, I'm old and I've been around the block and I talk to people for a living. And so when I was in the situation, talking with this psych person, here I am in the back of my head thinking, you're being paid by a production company to ask these. Like, you're. Yeah, you're a part. You're essentially a producer here interviewing me for this. And so these questions and my responses. And so, like, I'm in my head because of that. I'm trying to think of, like, what a. I mean, how old was Sarah when she did this? 20. Something like 20.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. She's like 20 years old.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah, 20 years old. 20 year old's not gonna know that answering these questions. So they're just gonna answer any flipping way that they want. Whereas me, I'm, you know, 23, but yet older. Like, older than Sarah. Answering these questions. I'm smarter. I'm knowing where. Where these things are going. And it's just. I wouldn't say it's manipulative because it is a part of the process. But I also fully understand that it is not an actual logistical psychological evaluation. It is quite literally a producer gauging information to see if you could do xyz. That's what it is.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I would say it is manipulative because the psych eval makes you think. Like, they're making sure I am mentally sane to through this process of sleep deprivation as I try and model for two months. But they're not. They're trying to see how you're going to act on camera. And she had a really funny answer. She wrote that. She answers like, yes, I believe people are trying to control our minds and the way we think all the time.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And they're like, why did you answer that? And she's like, but isn't that what you're trying to do on this show? And they were like, yeah.

[H. Allen Scott]

Well, I mean, she writes later on, this is a quote that, like, really just stuck out to me when I was reading this. And it fits. It fits here. She was like, going on a reality show is like throwing a hot stone into an already boiling cauldron of soup. I was more visible than ever, but I was also losing huge swaths of my personality. Like, it's so wild to think that even through these little questionnaires stuff, you lose your personality and you start getting in your head about, well, what is my personality? Who actually am I?

[Chelsea Devontez]

And when you have producers telling you you're going to be this one, you're going to be this one that you would listen. This actually segues wonderfully into something horrific, which is that they narrow everyone down into, like, the girls who are actually really going to appear in the competition. And the other plus size contestant gets sent home and Sarah stays. And then they bring them into a room where they have a producer for hours at a time saying things like this. America's Next Top Model is sitting inside this room. They said, really think about that. Look around. This is your competition. You are the select few. Does anyone know how many girls tried out for the show? A lot. Thousands and thousands. Ten thousand in Boston alone. And they keep going and they keep going and they keep going. And then they said, this experience can only be what you make of it. Suddenly their tones and demeanor shifted. They had been serious and kind, and now there was something else in the air. One of them stepped out of the line they'd been in, that information is worth more than you know. If you do anything to put that information at risk, we will sue you for $5 million. And then he said, yeah, but if you're thinking, I don't have $5 million, we know you don't. We know about all of your financial information. None of you have $5 million. None of your families have $5 million. What you need to understand is that we won't just sue you. We'll sue your entire family. And I don't just mean your parents. We'll sue your kids. And by that, I mean your future kids. We'll sue your children. We'll sue your children's children. We'll sue your children's children's children. Children's.

[H. Allen Scott]

What is this, North Korea?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, I mean, like. And for hours at a time, they say that to them to get them to listen. So no bathroom, no phones. Do what we say or we'll sue you. Or we'll sue you. Like, don't speak out, don't ask for things.

[H. Allen Scott]

The crazy thing is all of these. I'm gonna call them kids. All of These kids are 18, 19, 20, 21, maybe. Maybe some are in their mid-20s. Maybe.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah.

[H. Allen Scott]

None of them. Now, if you and I, at our age, now, 28, were in that room. Yeah. Like, we would probably be like, go ahead and try. Go ahead and try to sue me for this. Or go ahead and, like, you're not gonna give. You're not gonna sue me for 5 million. No court's gonna even, like, hear that case. That's ridiculous. That's absurd. And yet we know this because of our lived experiences. To think that a literal. I mean, she's an adult, sure, but a kid is listening to this. That would be terrifying.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Terrifying. Also, listen, I won't go into detail another episode, but I did sign a legal document when I was 27 years old. And I was given just a lawyer on the phone, being like, this is probably a good idea. And I was like, well, gotta listen to authority. And they were like, it's for your safety. Sign it. Don't understand it. You can't comprehend it. Like, I was 20 fucking 7, which is crazy cause I'm 23 now. But looking back on that, it is so painful to even see bad decisions I made as a full adult. And she's in college.

[H. Allen Scott]

We're always being taken advantage of. I was just taken advantage of by a health insurance company. So, like, we're all like, at any age, you are suspect to being Taken advantage of. Because these companies and these people know that this is not your world. And it probably causes you a lot of anxiety to do these things or xyz or you probably have ambitions, so you want to do a thing and you think, well, I'll just suffer through it if it's going to get me to this place that I need to be or if I need to do this thing. And they really prey on that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, yeah. Especially it's like, listen, have I saved a meme that's like, know your worth. Sure, yeah. But when you show up for a job and they're like, if you don't sign this, there's 5,000 brunettes behind you.

[H. Allen Scott]

You'Re like, well, I guess I got to.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I guess my worth is $1. And I will be there tomorrow at 6am yes.

[H. Allen Scott]

And now, what's so fascinating about. I kept thinking this while reading, reading Sarah's book is that, you know, when she left the show, social media wasn't really a thing. It wasn't a thing that nowadays, these reality TV stars, I'm friends with many of them. I talk with many of them, from Drag Race to Survivor to My boyfriend was on Project Runway. Like, all these shows. Like, nowadays, these people leave these shows and they try to maintain that celebrity by continuing it on social media in some capacity, try to profit off of it for years. And. And now there are even shows created to profit off of the desperation of old reality stars called Traders, that then.

[Chelsea Devontez]

These people, like, wait, what are you gonna say? These traders?

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah, these people. Everyone on Traders does not need to exist in reality, in our worlds at all. That is all desperate. And I. And I call, I talk to them, and I probably now will never, ever speak with another trader again. But they all are desperate fame whores looking to maintain a relevancy, and that is all fueled by social media.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, and also I would say it's like fame whore in the way of, like, what. What else are. Like when you put your job application down and you're like, my work experience is three reality shows in the mid-2000s. Like, they who. That they didn't get paid for. They were abused for all these things. Yeah. Make your buck on social Love island stars. It's not like they make money on love Islands. They make money getting off Love Islands and selling cheeses if they're lucky.

[H. Allen Scott]

So, all right, it blows the thing. It just blows me away that, like, you know, we're casting regular people on Survivor who, because they have interesting stories or whatever it is. I don't need them to be social media stars after that. I don't need that. Go back and be the mom. Go back and be the executive.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I would say with Survivor. I think that's true. Like, have you seen a Survivor social media star emerge in the past?

[H. Allen Scott]

Unless they're on Traders. Like, no.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You know, like, I would say that's not so much a pipeline the way maybe Love is Blind is.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah. Or even Drag Race or any of those shows where there's an entertaining element to it. You are an entertainer, so of course that makes sense that you would go off and do those things. Right.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Which is why I still love Survivor.

[H. Allen Scott]

I know. Me too. We should talk about that someday. Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, my God. I can't wait for the new seasons. Okay, so Tyra shows up on the cruise ship, Right. So they've been operating. They haven't seen Tyra, but Tyra is an icon to all of them and especially to Sarah. She's like, here we are, ladies. Tyra said the top 20 baddest chicks in the bunch. But of course, there can only be 13. 13 girls who will become Cinderella stories. They'll go from everyday girls in their hometowns to girls that everyone in America will know their names. Okay, so then she starts naming names, and Mila goes first, and she strides forward and she hugs Tyra and she cries and she writes this. Tyra looked at someone off camera and shook her head. No more hugs. They yelled. And then when she called my name, I started like a horse and yelled, nuh. As I carefully walked across the platform toward Tyra, I looked in her eyes and thought, God, I can't wait to go to sleep. And so now we get into the Tyra stuff, which is.

[H. Allen Scott]

What is it about Tyra that makes her the Katy Perry of reality television? Like, she's so unfortunate. She's so. She's massive. She's massively famous, like, internationally known, like, legitimately. And she did some great things. But also, why is she so cringe?

[Chelsea Devontez]

That is such an apt comparison too, because Katie really had a moment where the love was genuine.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You know, the whipped cream titties was.

[H. Allen Scott]

Like, Katie, she was ready to roar.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And like, I kissed a girl. No one really realized that was bad.

[H. Allen Scott]

Or problematic in any capacity. Yeah, exactly.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And but that. That's Tyra. Tyra's out there being like, I am making a difference. And for years, for like a handful of years, people didn't realize. Like, actually, I think you're.

[H. Allen Scott]

You're forcing something really bad. Young white women to wear black Face.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, So I found that out when I was Instagramming this book on the glamorous trash podcast. Instagram. Did you know she forced models to do blackface in two different episodes years apart?

[H. Allen Scott]

Yep. Yep.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay. So this was news to me. And I. So I told. I told my husband this. I was like, did you know she had models doing blackface? And he was like, husband, I love.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, my God, let us. Let's both marry him and also marry your boyfriend. Okay? So I was like, hey, did you know this? And he was like, let me see the photos. Like, there's no way. And I showed him the photos, and he audibly yelped.

[H. Allen Scott]

He was like, wait. There was one season. I forget which one now. The names, all of it. But there was one season where a girl lost a family member or a good friend to a drug addiction. And then the photo shoot that day, she had to pretend that she was dying of a drug overdose. No, that was the. The aesthetic for the photo shoot. And she had just lost her friend to a drug overdose.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I. I mean, it wasn't in the book, but when I'm. Maybe it was. I'm rewatching the episode, and there was a girl who works as a bikini wax artist, and Tyra is interviewing her to be a model. Tyra gets up on all fours on the folding table that the judges sit behind in a dress, and the girl comes and mimes giving Tyra a bikini wax, including the, like, spread your ass cheeks part. And there's something so potent like that. Tyra was like the crazy, kooky girl. But then you're like, wait. And then she's like, oh, she got my vajayjay.

[H. Allen Scott]

Oh, my God.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, this feels like a good time to take a quick break.

[H. Allen Scott]

This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. When you visit the doctor, you probably hand over your insurance, your ID and contact details. It's just one of the many places that has your personal info, and if any of them accidentally expose it, you could be at risk for identity theft. LifeLock monitors millions of data points a second. If you become a victim, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] terms apply. It's the Smuckers Uncrustables podcast with your host, Uncrustables. Okay, today's guest is rough around the edges. Please welcome crust. Thanks for having me. Today's topic. He's round with soft pillowy bread. Hey. Filled with delicious PB and J. Are you Talking about yourself. And you can take him anywhere. Why'd you invite. And we are out of time. Are you really cutting me off? Uncrustables are the best part of the sandwich. Sorry. Crust.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, let's dive back into the episode.

[H. Allen Scott]

Tyra, I'm dying to meet her someday just so that I can experience a little bit of whatever the chaos that you know, even when. Cause she lost one of her homes during the wildfires here in California.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay.

[H. Allen Scott]

But here's the thing. She lives primarily in Australia from what I understand. Like, she's like mainly there, I think maybe because of family or she shoots something there. I don't know what it is. And so when she was on television, it was this weird dance of like, I'm going to talk about how I'm relevant in this situation, but yet experienced very little loss because I don't live there. It was just.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And I have multiple.

[H. Allen Scott]

And I have multiple homes. And it was this weird dance and I was just like, I want to be as, like I listen as a gay homosexual who loves complicated people. I love a delusional middle aged woman. I love them. That said, that said Tyra, she's on another level. She couldn't even be a housewife.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Whoa. Now that you're right, that is a statement and I will co sign it. And we're gonna get into some really nuanced, incredible Tyra thought at the end of this book that Sarah wrote. But I'm gonna cosign that sentiment because do you remember when she was a host of Dancing with the Stars for one season?

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And she could not do it. And it was. It was incredible because she was reading off a teleprompter.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah, but.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But her, her eyes were like bouncing to the moon and back. Like it's like Dancing with the Stars couldn't contain her desires.

[H. Allen Scott]

And what, what that proved, that season of Dancing with the Stars proved is that she is so incredibly scripted that even the kooky things are all workshopped in advance. Everything is so, I mean, down to. I think back to her. If you've ever. If you ever want to see the most uncomfortable interview of your life, Google Tyra Banks and Naomi Campbell on the Tyra Banks show. The talk show. Because Tyra Banks would talk for years about their beef and how she thought Naomi hated her. And Naomi Campbell comes on and it's so. It makes you love Naomi Campbell, but it also makes you be like, oh.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Tyra, what does Naomi say?

[H. Allen Scott]

Naomi. Naomi's just sort of like, I didn't know you Were upset. I don't know why.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I remember this because I was so new and young. You said, I have to ask you something. Do they try to make you look like me? Right. And I said, I don't know about so much now, but in la, yeah, they really did. With the little short black wims. You told me that. Yes. And Naomi, you got up, pushed me away and said, yeah, I thought so. And you turned.

[H. Allen Scott]

I did.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You went from the sweetest woman that was giving me vitamins to someone that terrified me on that trip.

[H. Allen Scott]

Oh, my God.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And understandable. I can understand. I was told on that trip that I was sent home because you don't want me there anymore. So I didn't finish that. No, that's not true. That's what I was told.

[H. Allen Scott]

I don't have the power.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Then a winter.

[H. Allen Scott]

Brutal.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, we're gonna. We're put a pin in it.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

We're gonna come back to it later. First, Sarah gets into the house, and I need to read some of the house, please. Rules, please.

[H. Allen Scott]

I was obsessed with the house rules.

[Chelsea Devontez]

The house rules are incredible. Okay. Every morning, before we did anything else, we were to get miked. It absolutely had to be the first thing we did before coffee, before a shower, and certainly before speaking to anyone. If we woke up in the middle of the night and wanted to walk around, we didn't have to get miked. But if anyone else woke up, we did. And even if we didn't talk to each other, if there were two of us awake, we had to be miked. We were never to look directly into the camera except for the confessional or talk to the camera operators. We shouldn't acknowledge them at all. Even if they came rushing up to us, which they would do a lot. This was my favorite. We had to spend five minutes a day in the confessional. We didn't have to say anything, and we could go in with other people, but we all had to have been in the room for five minutes every day before any of us could go to bed. She would sometimes go into the confessional with a book and just read for five minutes. And then the last rule was, the girls should consider showering together, you know, for the environment, the theme of the season.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And in the shower and in the toilets, they couldn't film, but they could film them anywhere else in the bathroom. If there was one more person in the bathroom. Him.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah. I mean, you know, here's the thing. I. And I don't want to, like, completely rag on the show because reading Sarah's book. One of the things that does stand out to me again, as I said, like, having known all these people on these other franchises, these other reality shows, there are many truths that still happen to this day on shows like Survivor that Sarah writes about. Like this. This is oftentimes things like the bathroom thing, that is sometimes standard practice. There are very detailed rules about how those things are filmed. But, like, it has. And of course, we've become more understanding about the psychological needs of contestants and sort of there is a more of an awareness about that. That there was not when Sarah was on television.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah.

[H. Allen Scott]

But like, a lot of these rules that the house rules and stuff still.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Stand today, which is so. It's like, it's got gotten minuscule better, which is so tough because when you're reading this, Sarah is citing quotes from books like Cultish to explain how cults begin and how they were all conditioned very quickly.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay. Then there was my favorite cameo crossover ever. Raja, the future winner of season three of RuPaul's Drag Race, was the head makeup artist. And they introduced themselves and got to work on my face. Ra' Jah was the most beautiful person I'd ever seen. Tall and lean with gleaming skin and long, dark, shining hair. I asked them about themselves and was so excited to learn they were a drag queen. So Ra' Jah does all the makeup for America's Next Next Top Model for years and years and years and years, then finally gets to go on RuPaul's Drag Race and win.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah. And I will say Raja, while she was on America's Next, Just a little drag history while she was on America's Next Top Model, and years before she was on Drag Race, she had already been a pretty iconic local Los Angeles girl. Like, she. She had been doing drag for a minute, and it wasn't like she just sort of, like, went on to do Drag Race. No. She had been an institution in Los Angeles with Delta work and. And a few other queens in la. So, like, she was well respected both in makeup circles, fashion circles, but drag circles for a long time.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Because I remember that season, they were like, oh, my God, Mother is here. And, like, how can we compete against Raja? But it's also incredible just knowing that that was the America's Next Top Model head of makeup department.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Is, like, unbelievable.

[H. Allen Scott]

It's so. And I love that she spoke kindly of. Of Raja, too, because Raja is just like. Is just. Is great. Is just great.

[Chelsea Devontez]

A sweetheart. Truly.

[H. Allen Scott]

Truly.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I loved that crossover. Well, they get into the house, and Sarah I love Sarah. So production is like, we're gonna give you body issues as a theme. Like, your storyline is like feeling bad about your body. Yeah. Which is. It's so wild because like their whole thing, they were trying to. I think, I think she later figures out they were trying to get her to be a plus size advocate. And I only found this out because I interviewed her. So listen to that. But. But they're trying to get her to give a body positivity speech.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But what she said was like, this is 2007. I didn't know the words they wanted me to say. Like, we hadn't started that movement. I'd only been taught to hate myself.

[H. Allen Scott]

Also, like, I mean, I'm sorry, when I do my stand up or whenever I do drag or my performances or whatever, I'll make jokes about my body a lot of times, you know what I mean? Because I can own my own jokes. And people sometimes will be like, oh, don't you know, they want to put the plus size language on me. And I'm just like, I can call myself fat and make fun of myself and do all the things I want to myself. And you can either accept it or not, but, like, don't put this. I'm not an activist for anybody. I will talk about my fat ass whenever I want, however I want. And I don't need to be the leader of your parade. I'm sorry.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Listen, that's how I feel about the words bitch, slut, whore and cunt.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I'll use them as I please. Yes. And I also think something got twisted in culture in the past last decade where while intending to reshape culture and make it really positive and have positive intentions, which. Absolutely. We sort of put all this meaning onto words that sometimes no longer existed, you know, in the sense of like, we can reclaim the word bitch if you want and if you don't, you should not. Same with what you're saying. With body. Like, what, what empowers you. Well, the really cool thing about Sarah is that she will not give them the storyline they want of empowerment. Because she's like, I don't know how.

[H. Allen Scott]

Made me love her.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Me too. But she also won't give them her inner monologue of how insecure she does feel. Yeah. So almost every time they try and be like, did you feel so much bigger up there? Like, were you insecure? Because like, your body is huge and theirs is not like horrible questions.

[H. Allen Scott]

Like the makeover bit after the makeover, like, what they did to her and her body like, the questions that came over, I forget exactly what it was, but. But they cut her hair short, if I remember correctly. And the producers would always ask her questions, does it make you look more masculine? Do you feel like it'll make. It'll show off your curves more? Does that make you insecure? Whatever the questions were. And it's just sort of. And she's just sort of like, no, I've always wanted short hair. I think I look cute with short. Like, literally, she's just, like, happy about.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Her hair and she's genuinely happy. And they're like, they're upset. You can tell they tried to give her that haircut to, like, ruin her life or something.

[H. Allen Scott]

And then when she's. They bring up the body image thing, she's like, they're like, oh, does it make you feel like you look fat or whatever? And she was like, well, it didn't before, but it does now. Like, they're just, like, getting into her head about it, which is partly their job. At the same time, you don't need to do it like that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

This is America's Next Top Model. She's in her head. Like, everyone's in their head. Like, it's a looks based show. And yet. So she would start. For some reason, she knows a crazy amount of Ocean Marina life facts. And so whenever the questions got too intense, she would start telling them, like, facts about sharks, facts about, like, octopus. And, like, they would be like, what? And she would just keep going, which is genius for 20 years old. Okay, quick little Tyra tangent. Even though we're gonna come to a big thing at the end, you need.

[H. Allen Scott]

A sound effect for the Tyra tangent.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, my God.

[H. Allen Scott]

Okay.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I know. Producer Christina's on it. I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. Okay. As always, Tyra was perfectly made up and had her on camera, face on, composed, and hiding any inkling of how she was really feeling. I'd known performers who could turn it on like her, but I'd never met someone who. Who never seemed to turn it off. I couldn't see any chinks in her armor, no matter how long I looked.

[H. Allen Scott]

Here's the thing. And I got that. I remember she picked up. But they said similar things about that throughout the book. I actually respect someone who is just on RuPaul's like that. You know, Jeff Probst is kind of like that in a lot of situations that I've experienced, but also from stories I've heard. Like, I kind of respect that from someone who is Getting paid that much to be the face of a show that that is. Is that big. It's sort of like you want to be on all the time because, you know, every moment is a possible moment for the show. You know what I mean?

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's a great point. And those were two not only great examples of what you're saying, but two of our best reality TV show hosts.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yep.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Which is saying something, you know, because something. Not all hosts are good. And so, yeah, it's that hyper performative thing.

[H. Allen Scott]

And.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But I've also heard about Rue that, like, when they're off, they're off like, they'll never see you, because I imagine Rue has to, like, turn so off that, like, no one can come near them.

[H. Allen Scott]

Well, there's the video of, I think, DragCon one year where Ru didn't know Jinx Monsoon's name, and Jinx was standing right next to her. And it's sort of like, this is a person who's won your show twice, who is, like, one of the most famous drag queens that has ever come from RuPaul's Drag Race. And you don't know her name, which.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But I gotta tell you, Ru has probably met 400,000 queens in their life. I can see me doing that with, like, my best friend in the wrong place in town.

[H. Allen Scott]

I was literally just in drag at a show, not wrong. And I saw a good friend of mine. I didn't recognize them at all because they, like, were wearing a hat or something. So maybe I've heard Brad Pitt has face blindness. I think I might have it, too.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Listen, we could all be suffering.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So a couple of stories. I mean, they're throughout the book. The book is great. It really begins with auditioning, and it ends with getting off the show. Like, it is a scene by scene. But overall, Nigel is always brought up to her, is like, oh, he's so hot. Don't you want to fudge Nigel? Like, don't you have a crush on Nigel to the point where she's like, am I supposed to fudge Nigel? She was like. And his family would always be there, and, like, they were just always pushed. Like, everyone's in love with Nigel. And the rumor was that he slept with a model every season. I mean, even though she never saw whatever of it, it.

[H. Allen Scott]

I will say, Nigel could hit it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, so we should have been asking you those questions. Don't you have a crush on Nigel?

[H. Allen Scott]

I mean, Nigel, I'm even. Have you seen some of his recent posts? No. God.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I mean, how's he Doing?

[H. Allen Scott]

He's working out. He's like doing like, yeah, he's like, working out and stuff.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay.

[H. Allen Scott]

Like, I mean, he's hot for a dude. Like, I always wanted him to be gay, but he's not. He's not gay at all. And yet that he does have the sensibility that he'd let you stare in the locker room. You know what I mean? He would like, it's like, that's his community service.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, this is art. My body's art.

[H. Allen Scott]

This is for you. Homosexual.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That is what she said. It was like on America's Next Top Model. But I guess Sarah didn't share your taste. So she was always like, I guess he's fine. And they were like, are you crazy?

[H. Allen Scott]

I want to know Sarah's type.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I know now someone who I. I didn't see this coming. Maybe it's because I'm not plugged in. But Mr. J, which very different from Ms. J. Everyone. Mr. J is like the platinum blonde guy. Fucking hated working there, hated all the models, hated life, and was rude and horrible to everyone. What did you think of the Mr. J parts?

[H. Allen Scott]

Well, because I. I shared the sentiment. I remember seeing Mr. J all over my neighborhood in New York when I was. I was working in Chelsea for years. And I would always see him in. And he was always just such, like a sour. Like he just has that energy of just being a little bitch. And he and Sarah basically confirmed that Mr. J is basically a little bitch.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah. That he was like petty and an asshole and rude and like, didn't want to be filming. And I'm so sorry. But, but Mr. J, like, did you have something else to do in this?

[H. Allen Scott]

What were you doing? You were doing like the third hour of the Today show.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, like, like get it together. So whatever. So I talked to her a little bit about Mr. J. But then this is actually one of the most beautiful parts of the book. Sarah wrote this. So they're all in the house, but they can remember they can only talk if there's a camera there. This is 2007.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

In rare moments of clarity, I found myself wondering if maybe after everything, I was a lesbian. But I had to admit I was also attracted to men. I was still in deep denial about there being a third option. Even when I kissed a waitress outside the diner she worked at. Even when I went home with her and found myself present for the very first time, which meant being open and vulnerable in a way I never had before. Afterward, I snapped shut like a spring loaded clamshell. Hard, angry and cruel. And then she goes into the house and she's sitting in a group. And she said, suddenly, without any warning to her or honestly myself, I found myself saying, did you hear that Lisa is bi? Oh, said Jenna. So am I. My mouth was dry and my mind was spinning as I did my best not to show it. You are like. You are like. Like you have. I was sputtering. Like, I have been with men and I have been with women. Yes, she said, patient but a little confused by my reaction. When you were with women, was it. Was it for real or for sex? She looked at me, unsure how to answer. For real. I mean, we had sex, but also, like, we dated. Huh. I said, I am, too, but I never dated a woman. Just been, you know, with them, like, for sex. I wanted to, though. I felt like a kid who'd just gotten away with something. Suddenly it all seemed so obvious. I was bisexual. I looked nervously at the man holding a camera about 6ft away. Had I just come out of the closet on national fucking television?

[H. Allen Scott]

Wild. Wild.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I mean, wilder is that multiple women on the show were discussing being bi, queer or lesbian, and none of it. It was aired.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, they wanted to hide it. They. Yes, exactly. Of course they did. I mean, I will say, you know, if this came out in 2007, Newsweek had invented bisexuality only in 1995, when that cover came out where they talked about bisexuality. So, like, you know.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Wait, wait, same way. You need to say more on that.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah. There's a NewsWeek cover from 1995 that always. Every single year. It actually just recently had the anniversary every single year on July 17, bisexuals across the world celebrate the invention of bisexuality. Because there was a cover of Newsweek that said, not gay, not straight. It's something in between or whatever it is. And it was like, bisexuality. It was really big on the COVID Google it. But I will say, I do love when people can realize their sexuality. I came out of the vagina with the purse in hand. So, like, I have never.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Purse comes first.

[H. Allen Scott]

Purse comes first. Purse first. Purse first. So I have never had the. Had to have the moment where I was like, am I gay? Because I was always trying to see the dick. So I. Yeah, I don't. I really respect this moment for her.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, and, you know, I think I. This has been edited out of our podcast so many times, but this time we're gonna keep it in Christina, which is that there's a shareable PDF or a shareable word doc. It's locked, but you can share it for women, basically asking the question, were you cultured into heterosexuality?

[H. Allen Scott]

Oh, wow.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And I think obviously with Everyone experiences different things, but specifically with Sarah, in this document, it's about, you know, Disney princess movies to beyond of, like, you were cultured into this.

[H. Allen Scott]

How fascinating.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Right? And, like, could you walk yourself through this to really see if maybe you have a sexuality you haven't explored yet? It's a shareable link. Hit up our producer. She'll send it to you if you need it.

[H. Allen Scott]

You know what's so fascinating about that is. And I've talked about this a lot, but, like, I feel like with a lot of homosexuals like myself who just were so homosexual that, like, I almost had a. An adverse reaction to heterosexual sexuality. And because of the.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I can't believe they're allowed to live.

[H. Allen Scott]

But because of the patriarchy, I had to be the opposite of whatever masculinity was. I had to go in the opposite direction because of my interest in the D. So, like, everything about my personality, from my nails to my, you know, my purse to everything, had to be so drastically opposed to masculinity. And for women, that's fascinating. I never thought about that. That there's such. Because of the patriarchy, there's such a focus on the ideal of what a woman should be, what with the princess and the makeup and everything, that, like, you almost don't think that there's another option then.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And I mean, I. I think of it even recently with our episode, but Sheena Shea dated a woman, and the way she writes about it in her book, it's like, you could tell she, like, doesn't know if sex is an option and if. And what it means. And if they're dating. And before she can find out, she unfortunately meets Brock. And so. But I'm just like, oh, that is someone who needed the document. Right. Because you. Her brain couldn't understand what was happening.

[H. Allen Scott]

Fascinating.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And I think it happens to a lot of people. Yeah.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes, I do. I agree. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, the other person we have to discuss from this book is, honestly, it shocked me, the biggest bitch of them all, the judge who was the worst to her. Twiggy.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Actually, it didn't. Okay. Because someone pointed out to me something very smart, which is that Janice Dickinson gets so much heat for what she was like as a judge.

[H. Allen Scott]

She's cool.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. But Twiggy is never talked about as, like, Remember when she was a raging, mean bitch to all these young women?

[H. Allen Scott]

She probably felt like she was the celebrity on America's Next Top Model of the judges. She probably felt like she was the RuPaul of the panel or whatever it was. You know what I mean? And I. I wasn't surprised then by that, because she seems like she has an inflated head.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, you're right. And I know reality TV is, like, for show, be heinous, blah, blah, blah. But, like, she would say things to Sarah's face of like. Like, you look really beautiful in that photograph, which is shocking. Cause in front of me, you're quite.

[H. Allen Scott]

Plain and yucky, which is just like, girl, I'm here. I'm not. There's no photo shoot. There's no lights around me. I'm not in the outfit. I'm here to be. We're here to talk about this photo, not about what I'm wearing right now.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But also inside thought, why do you got.

[H. Allen Scott]

Why you got a color? Yeah, color.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You're here to judge the modeling. Okay, so then we gotta get into the makeovers, which is gonna bring us to Ebony. If you watch this season, the Ebony stuff in this book. Book is heartbreaking. So Ebony says this quote, I just want them to fix my hair. They've been making fun of this wig since the cruise. Said Ebony. I remember I said, thinking back to when we were roommates on the ship. A million years ago and a miles and worlds ago. What do you even want them to do, Ebony? I don't care, as long as it's free. So imagine production is making fun of your wig on a show run by a black woman. But built into the show is you get a makeover, and she's like, whatever they want to do. Like, because it costs a lot of fucking money.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And they brutalize her hair so badly in whatever they try and do to it that they then decide to shave her head. Call it, like, for modeling. Even though it was them fucking up. And then Ebony was the one person who came on the show just to get her fucking hair done.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And they shave her head. And don't, Don't. Don't do it at all.

[H. Allen Scott]

So I. I can't. Like, I literally have no words for that, because it just is. So it just feels like that there was no consideration for the people that were getting these things done. Now, I don't think I get that. The makeover thing is a fun thing that everyone looks forward to every season. And, like, yeah, I could go in any direction, and you kind of take it to a fanciful place. But, like, you also need to understand the sensitivities particularly. And I have. I'm not a black woman. I don't understand the black experience in that capacity, because I am who I am. That said, I do know that there is a long history of a complicated relationship that society has with black women and their hair, and thus that has impacted black women probably over the years and how they view their hair. And so maybe be sensitive to that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Maybe just do some good job doing hair like you did for the other 15 women, maybe, I mean, even care what hair you gave her.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So other girls are like, no, don't cut my hair. Don't whatever. Ebony was like, literally anything. I just want a salon professional for free.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And whoever they had hired just, like, burnt all her hair off. And then, oh, my God. Okay, so there's a contestant named Heather who was on the autism spectrum, and that is a huge storyline that she wants to be a model, but she's on the spectrum, which, again, going back to 2007, like. Like, beautiful. Like, bringing this to screen. Like, there's moments where Tyra's, like, really doing it right. But then for makeover day, they're like, we know. Let's get Heather, who is on the spectrum, to melt down by showing her a CGI image of the makeover we're gonna give her where she's wearing a mohawk, and then she'll have a mental breakdown, which we would like to see on screen, and that'll be fun for the show. And they reveal like, you're getting a mohawk. And Heather goes, great, I love it. And then Tyra's like, what? She's like, okay, great. And she's like, what? And then literally, they have to cut all of the footage out, and they're like, no, just kidding. You're keeping your hair.

[H. Allen Scott]

It is. So have you. Did you watch. This is a tangent, but it's important. Did you watch the last season of. Of Survivor?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, yeah.

[H. Allen Scott]

With the girl who was autistic. And that storyline and the way they handled it. That is how you should handle people who are differently abled in different kinds of ways, who have different life experiences that maybe don't align with how other people are abled. And as someone who comes from a family, as someone who I don't have. Well, no, I do have someone in my family who's autistic, but I have a brother with cerebral palsy, so I'm very aware of sort of the handicaps that we exist in the world, and I just love the way they handled that. I loved it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. The last Season of Survivor was incredible for many reasons, but that storyline was so beautiful and it was just so authentic.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah. And the person who had a stutter too, that was also very real.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And so listen, I get that we're talking about seasons that were more recent than 2007, but it does seem pretty egregious to be like, we're gonna try and punk the girl on the spectrum on purpose. They didn't punk anyone else.

[H. Allen Scott]

It's just. Yeah, well, yeah, it's. It's horrible, horrible, horrible.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, so they bring on. Or Tyra brings on a body image expert who's like, why don't you guys love yourselves? Meanwhile, they're getting $37 a day per diem sometimes and they have to buy their own food.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So Sarah ends up in this really tough eating disordered daily routine. Financially, financially, she's like, I can afford some beans and some lettuce or like whatever she's eating. They bring on this body image expert and Sarah's like, what the is going on? She later finds out it was a dermatologist. Just a lady who was a dermatologist who wanted you to love your curves.

[H. Allen Scott]

It is just so almost la. I have a doctor here in LA who is a bit of a wack and I love him because he'll prescribe anything. Said it. But, but like, it is such an LA experience that a show, a production company would hire a doctor to talk with someone about body image. And it's someone who quite literally gives Botox for a living. Like, like, like.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And they're like, you don't need training to love yourself, just do it.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah. It's like there's no skill behind this absurd. It's, you know, whenever Sarah brought up the food things in the book and it happens quite often throughout the book, I kept thinking that sometimes the food was being used as a ways to like get her. They. I want to catch her eating on camera or they want to like, they want to see her hungry because everyone loves a fat, hungry person person. And like I kept thinking that there was things that they were doing in order to get her to be that fat person and she was not fat, but that fat person. You know what I mean?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God.

[H. Allen Scott]

You're absolutely gave me anxiety because I mean I, as a fat person sometimes I'm very embarrassed. I'll never eat and walk half sometimes or I'll never. Like there are things that I won't do because I am self conscious of not so much, much how I view myself eating but how others view me eating. And so, yeah, it's like there's a mind that I have in that experience. My boyfriend and I go to Disneyland a lot, and you would think there, it's just sort of like, let the rolls out, need the churro. But there is this mentality of like, I don't want this straight dad to see me eating a churro and be like, look at that fat. Look at that fat walking around happy as a clam eating that churro. Like, I don't want. I don't. I don't. I don't. I think he's judging me and I just want to see his dick.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And I just snorted. Yes. No, you're so right. And it's. There's so much I will here. I will tell you. So I've talked about disordered eating on this podcast a lot because I live through it. But I've recently, actually, so probably like five distinct times in my life. Like, I can go back to every restaurant I was at that where I was across from someone lovely, someone I love, who I wanted to have dinner with, who said to me, wow, I love you because you're really not afraid to eat.

[H. Allen Scott]

Oh, my God.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And in those. And they mean it as a comp, I think. I don't know. I think they're good hearted about it.

[H. Allen Scott]

They're good hearted about it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But, yeah, I really don't believe it was a jab. I think it was an appreciation of I can't believe you're eating the way maybe I do at home in bed, in the dark or something like, I can't believe you're doing it in public. Or maybe I'm a disgusting eater and this is something for me to face. Not sure. But, like, every time it made me feel so bad, you know, it's like I wasn't feeling bad.

[H. Allen Scott]

You get in your head about it. I can pinpoint my eating shame so sort of to when I remember a very distinct moment when I was a kid and I got a second bowl of cereal and my brother said to me, you sure you need that other bowl of cereal? And from that moment, I was so embarrassed. And that, to me is like the. When. When it started, when the shame started was that moment when I was like, five. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, my God. My. That. My. My dad said that exact sentence to me. But then guess what? He turned out not to be my dad. So we're fine. Okay. So the next thing that happened.

[H. Allen Scott]

You're a little Mariska heart de Gay. Look at you. Okay.

[Chelsea Devontez]

The amount of people who sent me that documentary.

[H. Allen Scott]

She stole your story. Where's your Oscar?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Why don't you go see this and cry? And I did.

[H. Allen Scott]

I love her. She followed me and I DM'd her and. And I was just like, I love you so much.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I love that so much. Yeah, that's a good ass documentary we did. We did a little mini episode on it. Okay, so Ebony then begs to go home. She's like, please send me home. Even though she wasn't the model, they were going to be eliminated. She's like, I just want to see my family. I can't do this. I need to talk to my friends. Maybe you up my hair. She didn't say that. But it's just like, I just want to go home. I don't want to do this anymore. And Tyra is left like you. Like, she's crying. She's like, there's nothing I hate more in this world than a quitter shame. And she's like, ebony, get the hell out of here. And so they send Ebony away and every. And they have this secret signal where that. That means this. And it's like this little hand movement and Ebony leaves and they all do this, but they're like, at least Ebony got free. Yeah, we'll come back to that a little bit later.

[H. Allen Scott]

I kind of like that they had like. It was almost like a Normara, you know, union, but yet it was this hand signal. Like.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, that was a tiny little hand signal that the cameras couldn't catch.

[H. Allen Scott]

They were. They were unionized by hand signals.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Really. And also they were. That's the only way they were allowed to speak to each other. The camera was in the room.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So then they go and do a music video shoot for. Oh, my God. Do you remember the band? Because it's left my brain. It's a band.

[H. Allen Scott]

I don't remember the band. I don't. I'm not. I'm. Every friend makes fun of me because as soon as music enters, I don't know idea what's going on. Same.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I'm always.

[H. Allen Scott]

I'm like, I'm not a music person. You tell me the stand up that. Was there a TV episode that happened? I got you music.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I'm lost my love language. Is someone else sending me a playlist Because I can't make my. I can't build my own salad and I can't make my own playlist.

[H. Allen Scott]

My boyfriend was just like, you need to get into this K pop band. I was like, I'm only getting into it if you play make me a playlist. I'm done. I'm not gonna. I won't. I'm not gonna search for it myself.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, I will. I will do a pickup and come back in and tell you the band. Who is Enrique Iglesias. Yeah. I don't know why I called it a band. Don't know why I blacked it out, but I did, and it was definitely a music video for Enrique Iglesias. Okay. So they do a music video shoot for, like, 24 hours because they're like, we're gonna shoot all these models, you know, for the show. But also, if you guys suck, we have a second set of ladies. And then the productions haven't. They don't have enough costumes. They don't have enough makeup. Like, it's just a nightmare. And one of the models passes out and turns blue and can't breathe.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And Sarah finds her courage because they. You know, they've been put into this cult and goes up to a producer and is like, calling an ambulance. Like, get her to the hospital. Like, her skin is blue.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And the producer is like, listen up, little girl. Like, we are not calling the doctor. Like, put an apple in her mouth. She's gonna be fine. And Sarah's like, she's dying. Like, she could die. And they're like, we don't care. And, no, she won't get over it. And then that is the challenge. Sarah goes home on.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah. No. No surprise. No surprise there.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And she's just like. She's in such a fog and a trance that, like, she'd been telling herself, like, I'm gonna make it to the end, but then also was sort of like, am I?

[H. Allen Scott]

Well, they hype you up to that too. They hype you up to feel like that as well.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And so they're like, okay, bye. And she's like, okay, what now? They take her to her room, and they're like, here's a trash bag.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Put everything in it. Because she had been gathering free shit at their challenges that she wanted to take home.

[H. Allen Scott]

That made me love Sarah so, so much. Because that is so me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That is so me. I once. I once opened up a suitcase to go back to school, and I had seven different things of toothpaste. Some use, some not. I had been kleptoing toothpaste, thinking to myself, just save $2.

[H. Allen Scott]

Can I tell you $2? Can I share a secret? Please share a secret right now. I was at the Freakier Friday junket doing interviews for my podcast, and I Am friendly with Jamie Lee Curtis. And I may have gone into. To the back room and taken multiple versions of these.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, my God. Okay. H. Allen has just held up a Freaky Friday. Very nice Tumblr.

[H. Allen Scott]

Stanley Cup. Yeah, Stanley Cup. And I. I took many.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So Sarah is just, like, in a trance, and with a pa they're like, put all this stuff in a trash bag. She's like, I got some free makeup. I'm putting it in the trash bag. And they take her to a hotel. Well, go ahead, please.

[H. Allen Scott]

I don't know if this happens before or after the hotel, but there is a moment where they take her to the grocery store.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's right.

[H. Allen Scott]

You remember this?

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's right.

[H. Allen Scott]

And I. I've never. I've never felt this so hard. She gets to the grocery store. The. The handler gives her a grocery cart and told me to get some food. And she asks how much? And the guy goes. Or the person goes, enough for a week, let's say. And she's like. Let's say. As if. Like, she doesn't know what's gonna happen a week from now. Like, it's sort of like, I have enough trouble at Costco figuring out. Out navigating my way through that rotisserie chicken line. Like, I don't know what I would do if someone just said, yeah, get a little something. I don't know what I would do.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Also, you don't have a kitchen.

[H. Allen Scott]

No, you.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, also, she doesn't even know she doesn't have a kitchen. She doesn't know where she's being taken. Yeah. And they take care. To the grocery store, and they're like, we don't know how. Where you're going or how long it'll be or what you'll have. And they take her to Panda Express, and she's like, thank you, God.

[H. Allen Scott]

And Crab Rangoon.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Crab Rangoon. And then. Oh, yeah. They said, we'll get you whatever you want to eat. And she said, I couldn't think of any restaurants. McDonald's. I asked, and they were like, how about Panda Express? And so she asked, is there a microwave where I'm going? I asked the handler. Yes. The handler said, I got microwave popcorn and nacho ingredients. And, you know, listen, she's 20, and.

[H. Allen Scott]

So I would never. I just kept thinking, heartburn.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, that's tough. So she's eliminated, and she has a breakdown. And she's like, I don't even know know why I was having a breakdown. Like, I think it's because I didn't sleep. But it looks like I'm, like, devastated to leave the show. So much so that they call her a hotel room when she gets in the hotel, and they're like, hey, we have Frank for you. And she's like, who the fuck is Frank? And they're like, the sound guy we thought you had a crush on. And she was like, oh. And Frank's like, hey, Sarah, it'll be all right. You're just gonna live in a hotel for a while. And she's like, okay.

[H. Allen Scott]

Frank fucking sent her a cameo. Literally. That's what they did for her. They got her a production cameo.

[Chelsea Devontez]

As if she cared. She goes into this hotel room, and she wrote, I collapsed on the bed and slept for 16 hours.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

When I woke up the first morning, I realized that the handler had taken the room key.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I was a very bougie prisoner, and frankly, I didn't care. I would happily stay in there. And one day the handler says, you might have to get a roommate. And she wrote. I choked back the primal scream in my chest and said, I cannot have a roommate. I can't. I can't. I can't.

[H. Allen Scott]

That's my girl. Girl. Literally. Sarah, in this moment is everything I would be. I am the friend in the friend group that when I'm done with something, when. When I won't do something, you know I'm done, I will walk away. I will say no to things.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Good for you. You're the boundaries for me.

[H. Allen Scott]

I am a very much a boundaries person. I. When I am done or don't want something, I just say, nope, not for me, and walk away.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, so Sarah, unfortunately, is not getting any food.

[H. Allen Scott]

No.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And she doesn't have the key to her own hotel room. She can't. She can't leave. She can't use the phone. But she's just so exhausted and happy to be off the show that she's just living it up for weeks. And then she wrote this. I'm not the only one who ran out of food. When Lisa d' Amato was kept in a hotel after her elimination on Cycle five, her handler quote was sneaking food for me, like, granola bars. Which is the reason why in the next episode after I got eliminated, where Bri thought someone stole her granola bars, it was because a PA went in and stole her granola bars, thinking it was productions, but it was hers and brought it to my hotel.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So Sarah then learns that other contestants who've been voted off are also at the hotel. But, like, after weeks, like, she sees someone across A balcony.

[H. Allen Scott]

How Twilight Zone is that?

[Chelsea Devontez]

How fucked up. They're still not letting them talk to anyone.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And then she said, because I guess the paparazzi was like, who's won America's Next Top Model? They would bring decoys to every single event and bring girls who'd been already cast off the show. They would bring them to set of, like, final challenges so that the press wouldn't find out, and they got to choose who went to China in this round.

[H. Allen Scott]

I have a question. How much do you think that note that they had producers had is all just from Tyra's delusional brain? I don't believe that there are actually paparazzi hunting down, finding out who the next top model is going to be. I don't think there was ever one. There maybe was one photo, and Tyra freaked out, and that's why that rule became a thing.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. I mean, it's hard for me to go back to 2007 because, again, I was just trying to suck dicks that didn't want me to. And that took a lot of time and energy. But, I mean, I remember, wasn't it like, Nick Viall on the plane home from the Bachelor, was talking to someone, and then someone spoiled the season, and it was huge news. And I mean, that was like. Like seven years ago. So maybe.

[H. Allen Scott]

I mean, same thing happened with Drag Race when Raja was crowned, like, it had gotten leaked or whatever because they shot it there. So, yeah, people definitely. There definitely was that culture. I get that. But to go to this length and to inflate the value of that photo of this random girl that no one knows about.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, no. And I don't think the paparazzi on season nine of America's Next Top Model.

[H. Allen Scott]

Were flying season nine to see who was.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Who was getting out of the production van.

[H. Allen Scott]

No.

[Chelsea Devontez]

For the final challenge, however, they would drag contestants around. And this. I mean, I absolutely screamed when I got to this part. I'm going to read it out loud. They were literally locked out of their hotel room with a production assistant staff member, what have you, looking after them. But they weren't even allowed to have the key to their room. They had to stay in their room. It's almost like they were prisoners, listeners. One of the decoys was Ebony. After she asked to leave the show because she missed her family, they kept her locked in hotel rooms for almost two months. We brought Ebony. She wanted to leave the competition. And then we were like, sorry, no, you can't go home. Which was torture for her because they brought her to China.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah. I mean, and you. And you. Likely they brought her to China because someone was mad of what she did. Did, like, I guarantee you.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I think they were like, make her pay. Like, show her what happens when you're a quitter, which is psychological torture.

[H. Allen Scott]

Insane. I wonder, from your question with. With this, does Sarah worry about getting a lawsuit?

[Chelsea Devontez]

That is the first question I asked her.

[H. Allen Scott]

Oh, yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

On our bonus excluse. So tune in if you want to hear it, but I'm going to tell you.

[H. Allen Scott]

Tell me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay. So she gets off the show. She brings her trash bag of free makeup swag to all her friends back home. She has no money. She has to go work on the blueberry farm. She doesn't even have gas money. She's living off of, like, change from her couch. She's so poor, she slowly realizes that Celicia has won the season. And then she tries to become a model herself. And she goes to get an agent. And the agent is like, okay, first things first. You need to lose about 30 pounds. He told me. I stared at his round frame. Oh, no, sorry. I know. I want to be a plus size model. I. Oh, he said, confused. I mean, have you thought about just losing £30?

[H. Allen Scott]

Oh, my God.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And then she said, I met with agent after agent, and they all said the sum version of the same thing. Come back when your hair is longer. Including Wilhelmina. None of them said I was too thin. None of them seemed to care about Top Model either, except as an explanation for why my hair was too short. One agent put it this way, quote, we want fat, happy girls with fat, happy teeth and hair. I thought back to all of the women in my mom's Newport News catalogs. And this is what kills me, because Tyra would do, like, models have to, blah, blah, blah. You need the short hair to be a real model. And. And we were all watching being like, this is what models do.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

She goes to try and be a real model, and they're like, absolutely not. Grow your hair out. She has to have a friend buy her hair extensions.

[H. Allen Scott]

Wow.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And that's when she starts modeling and getting a lot of work in New.

[H. Allen Scott]

York because she has long hair, but.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It'S like, like, so they didn't know Tyra fall of. I mean, in.

[H. Allen Scott]

Did you ever go to her ice cream thing on the west side?

[Chelsea Devontez]

God, I'm sorry. No, please remind me. And this is going to be a perfect segue into what she wrote about Tyra. What is the ice cream thing?

[H. Allen Scott]

She had some. I might Still, I don't know. It's some ice cream shop on the west side. I went once. It wasn't that special.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Ice cream shop.

[H. Allen Scott]

I know. And now Tyra's all like, I've gained weight. Look at me, I'm modeling. I. I'm plus size. I'm this. And it's all just like, no, girl, you're Tyra, and everyone wants to see you be a hot mess. And that's why people have the camera out.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Tyra, you're a brand. You're famous.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes, you're famous.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, so Sarah writes this. At the very end, she's talking to Jenna, who was on the show with her. They'd kept in sporadic touch over the year, and one day, Sarah says, I'm thinking of writing a book about Top Model. After some back and forth, eventually she let me know that this was a bittersweet conversation for her because, frankly, she was still traumatized by her time on the show. Show quote, I think the whole industry needs to be taken down, she said. I told her I'd think about what she said, and we talk more later. I hung up, taken aback. Had we been on the same show? Did things get worse after I was eliminated? Or had I just gotten lucky and somehow snuck through the reality television gauntlet unscathed? Then I started writing. I read my own words and was shocked. For years, I'd been glossing over the details of my own memories. Even in conversations with my cousin, closest friends, stories poured out of me onto the page, stories I'd never said out loud because some part of me knew that if I did, they would become real. To do so would force me to see them for what they were. Deeply impactful. And yes, even traumatic trauma in the NDA kept everything buried deep down. Although after all these years, I've had a hard time being afraid of the men in suits on that cruise ship. And basically, she would pass on to people the phrases they had told her about her experience because she just learned to say it. And I. I just think that's so impactful. It explains the experience of trauma so well, where you're like, I'm fine. And then through some moment, you look at things you've known your entire life, and all of a sudden you realize everything is not okay.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah. I do love, though, as a writer who I can't even stand reading my own stuff. I've never read. I've never read anything I wrote and was like, that's good. That's. That's good.

[Chelsea Devontez]

To be fair, I think she was like, wait, someone almost died?

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah, yeah. She probably had an awakening, which is very valid and fair. I'm just saying from a comedic, funny perspective. I literally, every time I send anything to an editor, I'm like, I don't give a fudge. Tear it up. Do what you got to do with it. Rewrite it if you want. I don't give a fudge. I'm done.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, so here's what she wrote about Tyra. Tyra Banks set out to change the fashion industry, and she did it. It is more inclusive and diverse because of her and her show. Maybe it's naive of me, but I don't think she set out to do harm. I think she set out to create a show that opened a window into the fashion world to audiences at home, where she could mentor models into successful careers. But the show quickly outgrew these noble intentions set aflame by toxic fuel. The very first winner, Adrienne Curry, never received her contract with Revlon. And the winners of fashion and modeling world, they didn't translate to television. And so they had to create higher and higher stakes. And in my case, those stakes did not reflect of the reality of what it was like to be a plus size model. And then she talks about how it's a deeply toxic industry and a lot of harm happened. And someone says, what would you say to Tyra now? She writes, it's a complicated question. On the one hand, she provided me with one of the biggest opportunities of my life. I owe her a lot. I know that. On the other hand, I lost myself on the show. They broke me down and took advantage of my trauma. It took years of hard work and therapy to find myself again. The biggest thing I had to learn was how to see the world through my own eyes instead of constantly focusing on how the world viewed me, to climb down from my dissociated tower. And so I love how complicated she writes about it. And I have a question for you because, you know, we both came up in entertainment. We are in entertainment. And especially, especially in our years when we were in our 23 years old.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You enter the industry and they tell you, this is gonna brutalize you and fuck you up. And especially in my years, like when I was, like, doing comedy in comedy theaters, it was like, there's a thousand people to replace you.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You know what I mean? Like, if you want this, you will go through hell. And I was like, great, no problem. And I will. And, like, there's like five years of my life where I didn't go home for Christmas or Thanksgiving because I was making $68 doing comedy on Social. Some terrible stage.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yep.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Now, in retrospect, it's like, it shouldn't be like that. Or we look at reality shows like Love is Blind. And it's like, you know, they should change how these shows are thought. Thought of. And then there's people like Nick Vile being like, that's the show.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's what you sign up for. So you're.

[H. Allen Scott]

You're.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You're saying it's okay to go through this brutal thing. I'm really curious your opinion on the industry and going in knowing it's horrible and that being okay versus. Yeah, you know, it's like, did America's Next Top Model offer up enough that the Toxicity was worth it, or was it horrific and never should have happened?

[H. Allen Scott]

I mean, two perspectives. I do. I don't think it's horrific and never should have happened, because I do think it holds. It's an. It's a very interesting pop culture nugget that I think is valuable and created language and formats for different shows to come. And so it was. Was definitely a stumbling block onto other things that. That other shows sort of perfected in a maybe more professional way. That said, it's so interesting what you say about, like, the entertainment industry because, like, when I started, I was just doing standup and I. I had this mindset, especially around all these straight comics, this mindset of I will do standup and I'll either get in a writer's room or I'll get my own show and be an actor. And, like, that was the lane that was the two lanes that I could do, and there was nothing else I could do. Do. There was no other lane. And I was. And I. And I got it. I got to be in writers rooms and I got. I got to do those things. And I. And while I was in those writers rooms, exhausted, I wasn't performing, which is something that I loved. And I also didn't feel like I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. And so I was devastated because it felt like something was wrong with me. It felt like something like I got the thing I wanted, and now, oh, it's not enough. What's wrong with me? And then I got cancer. And after cancer, I was like, not that cancer. Everyone go out and get cancer, but, like, I got cancer. And after that I was just like, fuck all of this. I don't wanna. I don't want to work in these rooms with straight dudes who smell like Old Spice and I don't want to be around all these people doing these things when I can maybe figure out a lane for myself that I'm happy about. That gives me that scratches the itch that I like, which is making money off of me, being me and figuring out ways to do that. And I took a very. Of course it wasn't monetarily necessarily always successful, but I took a lane that focused more on podcasting or journalism or putting my personality out there or going into drag and doing stand up through drag or like doing it in different ways that isn't as I'm not getting the Netflix special that Maybe I envisioned 10 years ago, before Netflix, if Netflix was a thing, I guess. But like I. I'm not getting that. But I'm also very happy with what I am doing and the respect that I do have within the industry and my little part of it. And so yeah, it's so complicated because the society tells you one thing, that there's one lane, and you focus on that one lane or you're going to be a fuck up and you're going to fail and everyone's going to laugh at you. And I don't think that's true anymore. And I hope people are recognizing that younger people, I hope people are recognizing that there are lots of lanes. There are so many goddamn lanes and you can even make your own goddamn lane and figure out your own way. And Sarah really proved it throughout the book that through her own sort of unique perspective on even competing in this, she was creating her own kind of lane of thinking in a way. You know what I mean?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Oh, I think that was so beautifully said. And even it bringing her to this book and she's a writer and she's funny and all these things that would come together. I think I want to read the last three sentences because I think it goes pret perfectly with what you just said. All of that is to say I was one of many who were traumatized by the actions of Tyra and the producers, but still I am grateful. So here's what I would say. Thank you. Pay me.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah. Yes, yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And I think that's it. Yeah, listen, you want them, you want them to be awake for 17 hours and not speaking to each other. Okay. Pay a minimum wage.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah, yeah, just pay. I'll do that. Just pay. Just pay for that. But also too like, I have that same sentiment. Not so much the pay part, because I do always want to get paid more, but the idea of like those years of me trying to get to that goal that unattainable and not desirable goal that I had of, you know, working in a writer's room or doing those things, it gave me. It's partly why you and I know each other. It's because it gave me the circle and the respect in the comedy world amongst my peers in that era of people who did go on and get great success and that I can walk into a room and people know, comedians and writers know who I am, and. And I value that respect. And those years of doing the thing that didn't necessarily pan out the way I thought it was gonna pan out have given me that respect and given me those. That access to that stuff. And I'm grateful for that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, it's. It's so fascinating because, yeah, she says, I was traumatized and I'm grateful. It's really horrible because ideally you'd want the whole system to not uphold all this trauma and pain.

[H. Allen Scott]

It'll never be the. Right now some intimacy coordinator out there is doing something that is someone up because everything needs progress. Everything. So the. It's good that the intimacy quarters there. Coordinator's there. But, like, there's more that could be done. There's better that could come from that. Like, and that's how it's never gonna be perfect. And I kind of value that in everything, you know, that like, nothing is ever a hundred percent. And you learn from the bits that aren't perfect because then it makes you that more perfect. But I think what keeps us. Us creative people at least keeps us hungry, is that we never quite reach perfection. And we're always looking for perfection. We're always trying to get there. And that keeps us being creative. That keeps us going.

[Chelsea Devontez]

In Tyra's moments, she was doing things that for those years were woke. Were progressive, that she was hosting a show. And we look back on, it's like you're actually a terrorist. But she pushed forward. She fucked up a lot, but she pushed forward. And I think we could say that about a lot, really any topic we would go to cover.

[H. Allen Scott]

And it's so interesting I'm doing this now because I'm actually listening to Barack Obama's audiobook, like, of his. Cause I was like, I've never listened to it. I've never read it. I want to read it. And so I'm listening to that. Him talk about this era at the same time. And it's fascinating because it's just like we were going towards a direction of change, but, like, there are stumbling blocks. There always will be. And it's Kind of interesting to look back on it and see how it made. Made us kind of who we are now.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, I love that. Okay, we're doing the book test. Three questions. We both answer all three questions. First question, was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes. Oh, yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, absolutely. Second question, was it entertaining to read?

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes, very much so. Surprisingly, I have to say, I was expecting one thing and it went in a different direction.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, I loved it. I thought it was just a great bts.

[H. Allen Scott]

Well, can I add to that? Actually, it was a great BTS that that from a cultural perspective, a pop culture cultural perspective, it actually is a valuable resource for understanding how reality television production was happening at that time. So if you're a reality TV nerd or TV nerd in general, TV history nerd, it's actually a really good read to understand what was going on then.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, totally agree. Okay, final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

[H. Allen Scott]

Yes, it did, because, you know, it gave me a perspective on something that I don't think there's a lot out there of. And I'm someone who talks about TV a lot and TV history a lot. And there aren't that many books on reality T. Competition, reality TV in this way.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, I love that. Yeah. I don't even think I. I realize that, but you're so right.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah. I've read housewives books. I've read other books like that, but there's not many on competition reality tv, which is a very different lane than the Bravos or the event. You know what I mean? Like, even the dating shows, like, it's a. When you have a competition element to it, it. A real competition, not a love competition. It definitely. It adds a different lane. You know what I mean? It's like different. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, I totally agree. And yeah, this definitely elevated my life. I. I did struggle with disordered eating for so many years of my life. And to go back to 2007, when I was very much in that time, and read the mind frame of someone else, like, really being put through that. And as like the quote plus size contestant on reality tv, it just. I had so much love for her.

[H. Allen Scott]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That it kind of becomes love for yourself of, like, all these harmful things you were, you know, that she does to herself in this book and on the show. But also she's protecting herself. But also she's trying. But also she feels so free. She's the first one to, like, get naked and jump in the pool. And that was something in 2007. Like, I would have. I would have gotten to the pool with a full comforter rep drop.

[H. Allen Scott]

Same. Oh, my God. Same.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And so it's a kind of of like, hear about her life and the choices she made. I just felt so much love for her. And then I felt so much love for like 2007 me.

[H. Allen Scott]

Same. Same. Yeah, I like that. Oh, I like.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I adore you. You are such a dream. I know everyone already listens to your podcast, but please tell everyone where to listen, where to follow. There's several places.

[H. Allen Scott]

So, yeah, no, I made Challenge Scott on everything. You can listen to my celebrity interviews and pop culture stuff on the parting shot and to have you on by Friday episodes where we talk about pop culture and have you on and I have the Golden Girls podcast and then you can see me performing as Sadie Pines wherever you want in drag.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, I love that. Also, have you ever read Rue McClanahan's memoir?

[H. Allen Scott]

Have I read it, girl? I went to Barracuda in New York to get her to sign it. Thank you. I. I trust me, if yes, I went to the. I love that she went. She had her book signing when she was live, God rest her soul. Her memory is a blessing. When she had her book signing at. At a gay bar called Barracuda in Chelsea in New York. There's just no other human that did it like Rue McClanahan.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I agree. And I gotta tell you, I'm having, like, a psychic moment with her. I swear to God. We'll end the podcast after this. Every day when something happens, her voice pops in my head and it's this, oh, Ru, don't you know that every kick's a boost?

[H. Allen Scott]

That's so perfect. I love you.

[Chelsea Devontez]

A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and everyplate. We will link to those brands in the show notes. Go check them out. Everything else we discuss discussed is also linked in the show notes. And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon sign up. There's a free tier you can join. Leave a comment, chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the book club continuing over there.