Bethany Joy Lenz’s Memoir Dinner for Vampires (with Natalie Katona and Julia Washington)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast Episode: Bethany Joy Lenz’s Memoir Dinner for Vampires (with Natalie Katona and Julia Washington) Release Date: October 22, 2024

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Introduction to the Episode

In this compelling episode of Glamorous Trash, host Chelsea Devantez delves deep into Bethany Joy Lenz’s memoir, Dinner for Vampires. Joined by guests Natalie Katona and Julia Washington, the trio dissects the intricate layers of Bethany’s journey from a beloved actress on One Tree Hill to her harrowing escape from a cult. The conversation intertwines discussions about celebrity memoirs, the toxic dynamics behind popular TV shows, and the pervasive issues of misogyny and abuse within entertainment circles.

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Meeting the Guests and Setting the Stage

Chelsea Devantez begins by introducing her guests, Natalie Katona and Julia Washington, co-hosts of the YouTube series Still Comfy and Jelly Pops Book Club respectively. They share their background in reviewing comfort films and engaging with the millennial movie culture, setting the foundation for their insightful analysis of Bethany Joy Lenz’s memoir.

Natalie Katona reflects on her initial reaction to the book, expressing frustration over Bethany's altercation with co-star Hillary Burton for including One Tree Hill content in her memoir:

“Once I got over the grieving process that she allowed herself into a fight with Hillary for no reason because there was no One Tree Hill in this book.”
(06:21)

Julia Washington shares her emotional response to the prologue, highlighting the vulnerability Bethany displays:

“I was not ready for her to be as forthcoming with her relationship and her marriage.”
(13:03)

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Analyzing the Book Covers and the Underlying Drama

Chelsea discusses the controversy surrounding the similarity between the book covers of Bethany’s Dinner for Vampires and Hillary Burton’s Grimoire Girl. Both covers feature antique circular photos with gold trim, evoking a throwback, witchy aesthetic. This led to public disputes, with Hillary accusing Bethany of copying:

“Copying someone is not the sincerest form of flattery. Get your own ideas.”
(08:28)

Natalie Katona emphasizes the layered conflict, noting the original intention for Bethany, Hillary, and Sophia Bush to collaborate on their memoirs as a unified front against their abusive experiences on One Tree Hill. However, Bethany’s deviation from this plan fueled the rift:

“I firmly stand on Hillary and Sophia's side.”
(08:28)

Julia Washington concurs, pointing out that the absence of One Tree Hill content in Bethany’s memoir undermined their collective narrative, leading to unnecessary conflict.

“No, no. If you're looking for One Tree Hill gossip, this is not it.”
(09:18)

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Bethany's Journey and the Cult Narrative

The discussion shifts to Bethany’s childhood and susceptibility to the cult, highlighting her loneliness and religious upbringing as factors that made her vulnerable.

“She was always lonely and wrote, 'I was relieved Jesus would be my permanent friend,'”
(15:12)

Natalie Katona and Julia Washington explore how Bethany’s early life experiences and search for community led her into a cult-like Bible study group led by manipulative figures, Les and Abe. They dissect key moments from the memoir, such as Bethany’s realization of being trapped and manipulated:

“Because everyone feels that way. You can say that to anyone. And you're like, how do you know my life?”
(26:43)

Julia Washington discusses the nuances of cult indoctrination, emphasizing the lack of accountability in home-based religious groups:

“There's no governing body to say, 'Hey, bro, maybe don't make girls shower in the basement with the creepy guy.'”
(38:35)

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The Breakdown of Friendships and Personal Struggles

Chelsea and her guests delve into the deteriorating friendships between Bethany, Sophia, and Hillary, exacerbated by Leslie’s manipulation and Bethany’s personal struggles with self-worth and impostor syndrome.

“My budding friendship with sweet Sophia became a casualty of this.”
(50:43)

Natalie Katona expresses heartbreak over the fractured relationships, highlighting the lasting impact of the cult experience on Bethany’s ability to maintain healthy friendships:

“I feel like Joy's kind of set up for failure in the friendship department.”
(54:38)

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Manipulation, Financial Control, and Path to Liberation

The episode continues with an in-depth analysis of the cult’s manipulation tactics, including financial control and psychological abuse. Bethany’s gradual financial dependency on the cult is scrutinized:

“She doesn't ask how much, because Les and her husband, Quiet Boy, are like, 'We forgive you, Gretchen.'”
(78:07)

The guests discuss the pivotal moments that lead Bethany to recognize the extent of the cult’s control, culminating in her decision to seek liberation with the help of Danielle from Reddit:

“Danielle, she’s the last one let in. I think that’s also really important to note.”
(77:18)

Julia Washington shares her own experiences with custody battles, drawing parallels to Bethany’s fight to regain control over her life and finances:

“My dad devoted his time to studying cults, learning how they worked.”
(85:36)

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Conclusion and Reflections

As the discussion wraps up, Chelsea, Natalie, and Julia reflect on the resilience required to escape such manipulative environments. They acknowledge the therapeutic impact of reading memoirs like Bethany’s, which shed light on the dark realities of cult involvement and personal abuse.

Natalie Katona introduces the concept of "Millennial Resentment," capturing the generational frustrations stemming from unmet expectations and systemic failures:

“They said, go to college. They said, save money. They set us up for literally nothing.”
(109:28)

Julia Washington emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and the dangers of over-reliance on external validation:

“Always consider the source.”
(111:45)

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Key Takeaways

• Vulnerability in Memoirs: Bethany Joy Lenz’s candid sharing of her experiences provides a raw and honest glimpse into the manipulative dynamics within celebrity circles and cults.

• Impact of Manipulation: The memoir illustrates how loneliness and the search for community can lead individuals into destructive environments, highlighting the importance of healthy boundaries and self-trust.

• Friendship and Betrayal: The fractured relationships between Bethany, Sophia, and Hillary underscore the lasting effects of manipulation and the challenges of rebuilding trust post-abuse.

• Financial and Psychological Control: Bethany’s journey emphasizes the subtle and overt tactics used by cult leaders to maintain control, including financial dependency and psychological manipulation.

• Empowerment and Liberation: The memoir serves as a testament to personal strength and resilience, inspiring readers to recognize and break free from toxic influences in their own lives.

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Notable Quotes

• Chelsea Devantez:

  “You don't have to change who you are. You're just not alone.”
  (01:20:30)

• Natalie Katona:

  “I couldn't believe that even made it past, like, an editor, especially with the word hooker.”
  (59:25)

• Julia Washington:

  “Always consider the source.”
  (111:45)

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of Glamorous Trash offers a deeply engaging and insightful exploration of Bethany Joy Lenz’s memoir, Dinner for Vampires. Through thoughtful discussion and expert analysis, Chelsea Devantez and her guests unpack the complex interplay of personal struggles, manipulative relationships, and the quest for identity and empowerment. Whether you’re a fan of One Tree Hill or intrigued by the dark undercurrents of celebrity life, this episode provides valuable lessons on resilience, self-discovery, and the importance of supportive, genuine connections.

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Follow Your Hosts:

• Chelsea Devantez: TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author. Instagram
• Natalie Katona: Host of To All the Men I've Tolerated Before. Podcast Link
• Julia Washington: Writer, artist, owner of Prose and Glow. Jelly Pops Book Club

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Subscribe on Patreon for bonus content, exclusive discussions, and access to the community chat.

Transcript

[Chelsea Devantez]

This episode is brought to you by Google Gemini. With the Gemini app, you can talk live and have a real time conversation with an AI assistant. It's great for all kinds of things like if you want to practice for an upcoming interview, ask for advice on things to do in a new city, or brainstorm creative ideas. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini. Download the Gemini app for iOS and Android today. Must be 18 to use Gemini Live. This episode is brought to you by.

[Natalie Katona]

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[Chelsea Devantez]

Now for the ultimate family holiday movie experience.

[Natalie Katona]

Reunite with the characters you know and.

[Chelsea Devantez]

The untold story you'd never expect. Witness Mufasa's rise from orphan to king and see how the legendary villain Scar got his name.

[Natalie Katona]

Disney's Mufasa the Lion King in theaters everywhere. Now the kingdom awaits.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a celebrity memoir podcast where we dig into all of the glamour and all of the trash. If you've ever referenced Mariah Carey in therapy, then this might be the podcast for you. I'm your host, Chelsea devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And this week we're book clubbing a memoir titled Dinner for Life on a cult TV show while also in an actual cult. This is the memoir of Bethany Joy Linds. I love, love, love the title for this memoir and as it suggests, it is indeed about her escape from a cult or as you may call it, a high control group. I could not put this book down. I loved it. Now you will know Bethany best from her role on One Tree Hill for nine seasons and we are also going to be talking about the podcast drama Queens, which is her and her two co stars, Sophia Bush and Hillary Burton, discussing and recapping One Tree Hill. You'll also know her from so many Hallmark movies, the movie Bring It On Again, and so, so, so much more. There are so many layers to this story and this is your trigger warning. We are discussing occult and a lot of abusive behavior, so always take care when listening. I hope people know that there's no shame in being abused. That happens. There are really terrible people out there and there are people who do bad things and that doesn't make you a bad person and that doesn't make you at fault. And so I think taking the stigma away from that pain of being someone who sticks around to see the best in someone else, that's a good quality. You don't have to change who you are. You don't have to shut down your heart. You're just. You're not alone. There are boundaries. There are very practical ways to prevent yourself from stepping into those things again. But I just want people to know that they're not alone. My guests today are Natalie Katona and Julia Washington. They co host a livestream YouTube series called Still Comfy, where they review their favorite comfort films, like now and Then, a favorite of mine, School of Rock, and other beloved millennial movies. Natalie is also the host of the weekly podcast to all the Men I've Tolerated Before, A Deep Dive on the Impacts of Everyday Misogyny, which is just every day, y'all. And Julia is a writer and artist and owns Prose and Glow, a pop up gift shop. Julia also hosts the Silent Reading, the Reading Salon, and the podcast Jelly Pops Book Club, where they read book to screen adaptations now. Hi, you both. Thank you so much for being here.

[Julia Washington]

Hi, we're so excited.

[Natalie Katona]

Hi, friend.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Well, as you both know, I introduced my guests with the story of how we first met. And this one, this is a really beautiful one to me. I'm really curious to hear your side of it. But we all met in the Zoom Book Club for this podcast.

[Julia Washington]

I actually joined September 2022 because my son had gone off to college. And I was like, what do I do now? I've never been alone ever in adulthood. And a friend of mine was like, you've been listening to the show since the beginning. You should join. So then I said to Natalie, I was like, I think I'm gonna join. Like, you should. We should join. Right?

[Natalie Katona]

And then she got to go to one meeting without me. And then I was like, never again. And I joined too.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Oh, my gosh. Well, in my heart, you've been there the whole time because you're such core members. And like, I, you know, when we took this podcast to Patreon, it was. It was like this on fire moment where I was like, I'm going to start a Patreon and the podcast is either over or, or if people join, we will continue. And I was like, what can I offer on the Patreon? And I thought a real book club. And it's so beautiful now to, like, all be here together because I know you through that book club and I know you're One Tree Hill fans via literally a year book clubbing.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah, I've been crying about being a cookie for the entire week.

[Julia Washington]

Yes.

[Natalie Katona]

I've just been like, well, it's so.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Funny too, because you know Chris, who's also in the book Club has the podcast Fixing Famous People. You both have podcasts. You've been on his podcast. Now you're on my podcast. Okay. So I learned. I have just this memory of learning that you met once a week to discuss One Tree Hill. So I knew I needed experts, One Tree Hill experts for this podcast because there's not only so much drama in the book, there is drama on the television show, there's drama behind the scenes of the television show, and then there's drama behind the scenes of the recap podcast that they host of their own television show. So the layers are just so intense. I'm so glad you are both here to help weigh in. And I'm gonna be asking, asking for your expert advice as we go through this. But right now, just overall, did you love reading the book?

[Natalie Katona]

You know, the book grew on me once I got over the grieving process that she allowed herself into a fight with Hillary for no reason because there was no One Tree Hill in this book. Like, why did you put it on.

[Chelsea Devantez]

The COVID Okay, wait.

[Natalie Katona]

Why are you lying to me?

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, wait, wait, wait. Let me back up. So you're referencing the actual fight in real life that she is allegedly, but pretty obviously in with her former co star, Hilary Burton, who they kind of gotten in a fight seemingly over the COVID of this book. Is that right?

[Natalie Katona]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay. Yes.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And it is. And okay, so I. I ran a poll on my Instagram today for everyone who, you know, listen, it's a visual medium. I'll drop it on the Patreon and the Instagram. But Hillary put out a book cover for the Grimoire Girl, her second book, and she clearly designed a lot of this herself. There was a ton of content. She had a really heavy hand in designing her book cover because when you're famous and you already have a successful book, you get to design your own cover. So she really did have a handle in this. It's very witchy. We love. And then Bethany's book cover came out about a year later. And it's funny because I put up a poll on my Instagram to have people vote on whether they thought were similar. If you work in the book world, these are wildly similar covers. I think they are extremely, extremely similar. If you don't work in the book world, maybe they don't look similar. And people were torn on my poll. So let me just describe them. Both covers. They have a completely different color palettes and different font choices. However, they both have this throwback feel. They both have an antique circular oval photo of each Author. Both of them are adorned with gold antique trim, and both of them are hearkening to a style of book covers that's no longer popular that I think came up in, like, 70s, 80s. And so they both have this, like, old world, a little bit of a witchy feel to it. Now, I have a question for you both, but first, I want to say that we know there's drama around these book covers because on the day that Bethany's came out, Hillary posted a tweet that was something like, copying someone is. Is not the sincerest form of flattery. It's like, get your own ideas. It was obviously much quippier and better than that. So clearly this. This. There were feelings around this. Now, where do you both stand? Whose side are you on in this moment of pettiness?

[Natalie Katona]

There's another layer to the fight, and the other layer is that Hillary, Sophia, and Bethany agreed to write a book about their experiences on the One Tree Hill set because of their abusive boss that they refer to as our boss on the podcast Drama Queens. And so when it came out with life on a cult TV show, I think that added a layer to the fight because they were like, oh, we were supposed to talk about that together. Like, that book was going to be our book in solidarity with one another. I firmly stand on Hillary and Sophia's side. And. And, yeah, so.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Well, yeah, okay, now I understand your first comment, because there's not One Tree Hill in this book almost at all.

[Julia Washington]

No, no. If you're looking for One Tree Hill gossip, this is not it.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Move along, my friends. Yeah, yeah. It has really cool stories and anecdotes and little pieces, but she really does not talk about that TV show. So. So you're saying this fight is over nothing because they could have all done the book together. Yeah, yeah, no, I get it. And it's interesting. Everyone on the polls said they wouldn't be that mad if they were Hillary over this book cover similarity. A majority said that. And I said, oh, I'd be holding a grudge to the end of my days.

[Natalie Katona]

You and me both were queens of judges.

[Julia Washington]

I would be so mad, I would hold it forever.

[Chelsea Devantez]

But also, like, if you work in the arts, it's just gonna hit differently of how difficult it is to get your own shit up and how there is an unwritten rule amongst all of us that you just can't copy someone else's thing. And if someone else gets there first, you have to drop your own thing, which I've had to do so many times in life. And it's so painful. It's literally Bethany's drama with taking the Notebook to Broadway, which we'll get into, where it's like, if someone else does it and then you're done. And so I could see why they would be mad. And the third thing we have to pull in. We haven't even gotten to the book, y'all. This is why we had to have experts. The third thing we have to get into is that there is speculation that it is because of their politics, they unfollowed each other on Instagram. Hillary is no longer doing the Drama Queens podcast. And people are saying it is because of their differing political beliefs. But from what I looked into, I didn't find a lot of proof. But you are the experts, so you tell me.

[Natalie Katona]

So it's hard. I will say that a lot of my sources are the new sources of TikTok and Reddit. And because I live. I don't live in my own comments like Sheena Shay, but I live in everyone else's comments.

[Chelsea Devantez]

A fun place to be.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah. And so I read like, I'm reading all these comments, and what it is, is, and why it's so hard to prove any of this is that Bethany has her own personal fake Instagram account that Hillary and Sophia both used to follow. And that's what got sent to another news source that I found on TikTok du Moy. People had taken screenshots of her basically having some turf, like, you know, messaging posting and like, Sophia going off in the comments, like, in love, being like, I can't believe that you escaped one cult just to be told what to do by another cult.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, so first I'm going to say we're not allowed to call Dumois Dumuy a news site that is. I'm going to say that is the equivalent of the incel movement in pop culture gossip. And people don't realize it, but they're gonna wake up in 10 years and be like, oops, what did we participate in?

[Julia Washington]

But oopsie.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. People do need to place this in their screenshots, and that is hot tea. Okay, so all of that drama is to the side of this book. And basically they all, the three of them have this podcast together. Now, there's been an announcement of One Tree Hill, the. We call it a sequel, a remake, refill. The reboot.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Is now coming back. And Sophia and Hillary are EP's producers. They sold together. No Bethany. No Bethany.

[Natalie Katona]

Right.

[Julia Washington]

And she's claiming it's still too early stages to Even, like, make a claim that they're doing a reboot.

[Chelsea Devantez]

What?

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, that's what she said on the call your daddy podcast today.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Oh.

[Julia Washington]

Oh, it's still too early. It's still too early to make.

[Chelsea Devantez]

That's a PR line. Because I do see her making amends in this book to them.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Did you pick up on that? Okay, let's just get right into the book. So if you are a hardcore, hardcore fan, I can see you would have the reaction that Natalie did. I, however, you know, I'm just floating along on the side. I loved this book. I loved it. Couldn't put it down. Now that I have researched and found all the things that weren't in the book, I. I would be very sad had I. Had I been reading, looking for that stuff. But in the prologue, I was really floored by what a good writer she is. What did you think of the writing style?

[Julia Washington]

Well, I read the prologue, put the book down, texted Natalie, and said, oh, I think I'm gonna cry this whole time. I was not ready. Yes. I was not ready for her to be as forthcoming with her relationship and her marriage. And it just kind of was like, okay, this is the ride we're going on. This is what I mean. You can kind of expect that from the title. Right. But I also kind of expected her to be a good writer because she's been writing music for so long, and I know the two don't always translate. Right. Like, some people are really good songwriters, but please, please don't write a short story. You're not good at that. It's okay.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

So I was a little surprised. But also, she's just so into creativity and into writing in that way, not just music, but I think she even commented in the book that she would write poetry and all.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And she's a big journaler.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, and big journaler. And so it was just like, okay, this is gonna be a good book. And I wasn't prepared for the emotional journey.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. I do think this is one. If you were thinking about, this is one to read, I think. And there's a line in the prologue, he. Her husband, who she's trying to get away from, throws a sweatshirt at her, and it becomes the heaviest thing he's ever thrown. And I was like, oh, shit. Because I've been reading some books without co authors lately, and they're not good. And this one was just so lovely. So let's talk about her childhood, because it really sets her up pretty specifically to become susceptible to a cult. Now I'm not gonna say that's like, I feel like maybe half the population has a shitty childh and could be susceptible to a cult. But the way ways for her is that she was raised religious, so her parents are like teaching her about God and they kind of come from that like 70s hippie area era. And she was lonely as a kid and wrote I was relieved Jesus would be my permanent friend, which I love.

[Natalie Katona]

So on the acknowledgement page, like not the acknowledgement page, on the, where you dedicate the book, the dedication page, it says for you, the reader. And I was like the loneliest line in the book. She doesn't have. She's not dedicating it to her daughter, to Paul Johansson, to it's for me, the lady she's never met. No, she's lonely.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, you're right.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And I, and I think she is always. I barely know her. But even the fact that there's this trio of women on the show and she's on the outskirts now, she was on the outs then. I think she's an outsider, which also, you know, a cult who's like, everybody's allowed in and we want you to stay like that probably feels very nice to someone who's, who's, who's lonely a lot.

[Natalie Katona]

Well, yeah.

[Julia Washington]

And they really opened the door with the whole conversation about like we're a family and you know, doesn't this feel warm and fuzzy and when you know, she talks about moving around a lot and, and it's hard to. And I feel like army brats feel the same way too. Right? Like that restarting over every single time. It's hard to keep, especially in the 80s and 90s, it's to keep long distance friendships going. Cause we don't have texting, we don't have social media to keep those chats regardless of distance and so being. And I could. And I related to her so hard when she said like, it just felt good, like summarizing like how good she felt being in a group of people that were just like welcome. We are this big warm, fuzzy thing that you've never really experienced and doesn't it feel great? And then sinking into that and it just feeling good for so long, I thought that was very relatable. And then I thought, oh, we're in trouble. Like this isn't going to end well.

[Natalie Katona]

Julia and I talk a lot about how lonely it is to be like writers, creators, producers, things like that. And how we've always wanted like a collective of people who understood why creativity is harder some days and not as hard other days. And so, yeah, when your Bible study goes weird, but those Bible study people are your only friends, you kind of just like, start going, okay, well, I guess we're getting weird. But you don't always notice that it's.

[Julia Washington]

Going weird right away because you've been in it for so long. Right. Like, it's that grooming part of it that she talks about, and you're just like, you don't. I don't know. It's just. It felt. It felt like, oh, my God, could I get into cult 2 if this is how it happens? The answer is yes.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Oh, my gosh. I can never stop podcasting because I need eyes and ears on me at all times. I am in Hollywood, where cults thrive. I need people calling me out. Especially the way she describes it, which is that she never had a family, really, in that her parents fought a lot, but pretended things were fine. And when she's 16 years old, they divorce, but not only that, they're both immediately gone. Her dad's like, I met someone else. Bye. And then her mom is physically packing the house to move out the week of her graduation. They've been fighting a lot. Oh, my gosh. Did I, like, relate to this a lot, too, where, like, your mom needs to have her own life, and you're also being a total bitch to her and. But also, like, you really need a mom, and, like, she shouldn't leave and, like, go. Go be with her new partner. And because her mom had already taken her on auditions and she was on a soap opera, her mom was like, you need to be out by next week. That's when the house is up or whatever, leaves. And then she has a week to get herself to New York City. And she's like, well, I guess I'll move closer to set on the soap opera I work on. And then she's just in the city on her own from such a young age, so she's also especially primed to be looking for people who want to stick around. Yeah, okay, we have to talk about this, which is that there is this moment in time across so many memoirs where they all fucking auditioned for Mickey Mouse Mouse Club, and they all made it to the last round, and Bethany is one of them now. I'm like, come on. Like, there's just this group of kids who are almost Mickey Mouse clubbers whose parents all need to be in jail.

[Julia Washington]

Yes, Yes, I agree.

[Natalie Katona]

I never stand by Disney.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I mean, my gosh. And, yeah, so she's just kind of come up with she's like, I've been in audition rooms with Natalie Portman my whole life. Like this is. She's just like in the business from the beginning. And she moves to Los Angeles after her. After her soap opera ends. And this is where she meets Mina, Harker and Abe. And to break some hearts. Allegedly. Allegedly from the research and a source of mine who I had a. I had a research source who fed me a lot of things. I'm gonna call them. What's the opposite of deep throat Sensitive gag reflex. My source sens gag reflex sent me a lot of things that says that Jonathan Jackson is Harker, who you will know as Avery on Nashville. He's like the fuck boy boyfriend. He's been a lot of other things, but yeah, all to say two famous people in a cult of what, 12 people? That's too many. That's. Well, that's a success rate.

[Julia Washington]

It's too many.

[Natalie Katona]

It ends up being like three or four. Because Mina is also a wife who becomes an actress. I saw her IMDb page.

[Chelsea Devantez]

So I feel like this is getting very confusing for everyone. And I should let you know that there's a map in the beginning of the book because it gets very confusing. But Mina, Harker and Abe are fake names for very real people. And Harker and Abe are brothers. And Mina is an actress who marries Harker. So she is in Los Angeles. And Mina is this actress who she looks up to. And she also has a roommate named Camille. And through them she gets brought into this tiny small Bible study group which is led by Harker and Abe.

[Julia Washington]

I do wanna.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Go ahead.

[Julia Washington]

I do think it's important to know it's a home Bible study versus a church based Bible study. Cause that distinction when it comes to like Christianity I think is really important.

[Chelsea Devantez]

That's a really good point. Cause it is just. It's Harker and Abe who. It's their parents house. Yeah. And their parents are Pam and Ed and they have a lot of money and they have a really beautiful. And it's just these like two like hottie actor boys wanting to talk about the Bible and a couple of friends coming by to like have like this emotional creative community like you said, you know. But it's rooted in faith. Would you say that's right?

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then probably to protect themselves from the evils of Hollywood, which.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, a noble cause. Had you not started your own cult. Right. So she's just like going to this house. She's with Mina, she is with Camille. I never found out who Camille is.

[Julia Washington]

I tried so hard, and then I found a. So I. You know, in your efforts of Googling, then I found this, like, Instagram post preview that talks about a Camille in Bethany Joy's Instagram, but when you click on it, it has nothing to do with Camille.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Here's what I will say. She mentions Camille. I really want to track these names for everyone listening. Camille is going to be an important figure in the book. And later, she mentions Camille becoming friends with Katherine McPhee. And. And you're like, well, that's a real famous person. And I found Getty Images of a True Blood season six premiere, and it is Bethany, Katherine McPhee and Kelly Overton. Oh, but I know. I have no idea if that's could be accurate. What do we think?

[Julia Washington]

Oh, okay. But okay.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Because Camille is also a big actress.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. Cause she's. If I remember correctly, because I also googled Bethany Joy Lent's wedding because I thought maybe that would lead me to the path of who Camille was. And I feel like she was in Pictures of Katherine McPhee's wedding. Yeah, like, that. I feel like that tracks with, like, the three of them were at Katherine McPhee's wedding. If I don't.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Well, I'm gonna say Camille might be Kelly Overton, but who knows? Allegedly. Allegedly. This is just. Listen, it's a pot. You know? You know, we're just. We're just talking shit. So they all are in this, like, Bible group, and all of a sudden, one day, this man named Les shows up. Obviously, Les is a fake name. Whatever. Les is there, and he's, like, gross, and he's ugly and he's disgusting, and he's putting all his, like, sweaty hands in the meat. And Bethany's like, this smells disgusting. He has three gross sons. She names them the Barbarians and Quiet Boy. And he has a gross, sad wife named Martinez. And this is such a lesson in trusting your instincts because she goes, this is gross. I don't like these people. And then shames herself via the Bible study lessons of like, how. How dare you judge someone else? Like, let these people in. Where it's like, no. We were built to have fear instincts for a reason.

[Natalie Katona]

Right?

[Chelsea Devantez]

And when you override them, it's not great. And less just kind of takes over the Bible study. He's just hanging out. He's this minister. His last church kicked him out for being too good. And Pam and Ed are like, we love you. Sounds like you were too good. You can live in our house in Idaho, because we're rich and we have money. So just like, take our house, have a good time. And this, like, weird group is forming and Bethany is really looking for a sign. A sign that, like, God is real. A sign that all that she's doing to sacrifice for God is real. And what happens is that Mina, who is 30, is in love with Harker, who is 21 at the time, and she's in love with him, but he has a fiance who we never meet. And then one day he breaks up with the fiance and is like, mina, I love you, and proposes to her. They've never dated. They were not even in a romance. And Bethany is like, God is real. What did we think of that part?

[Natalie Katona]

I'm mostly mad that we never circled back to. Out of nowhere, he proposes. They've never sat in a steak and shake together alone. They've never been in a car together as far as.

[Julia Washington]

No, because they're good Christian people and you would never do that.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah, but that, like, self sabotaging. Like, it's like you have the instinct and you clock your instinct and you're like, oh, no, no. Bad, bad man. And then you watch your friends react to the bad situation and then you go, well, maybe I'm terrible. That's really easy to believe. Why would other people be terrible? Because I know that I'm terrible and full of sin.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yes. And she's being taught that weekly by Les, who is showing up more and more. And we have our. I'm gonna say, as close as we get to a psychic moment is when Les is like, bethany, I want to call you out. Specifically, you keep thinking you're second best and that nothing good is ever gonna happen to you and you're always gonna come in second place. And she starts sobbing and she's feeling like, how does he know this about me? How does he know that my family never got the good things? I never get the role? I'm always second best. I'm always second best. And then I thought to myself, because everyone feels that way. You can say that to anyone. And you'd be like, how do you know my life? But he says it to her and she thinks he's really incredible and caring. Yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

Oh. I also find it interesting that you're not taking the moments where she writes out what God says to her in a confirmation as a psychic moment. Because I was like, ooh, it's filled with psychic moments.

[Julia Washington]

Is God psychic?

[Natalie Katona]

But then also. Cause I think this happens before Les actually starts taking over. There was a 911 to purpose pipeline.

[Julia Washington]

Right.

[Natalie Katona]

You're right. Because Les had lived in New York before, so she was like, oh, a New Yorker too. We're sad.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, yeah. And he said he used to study with a pastor that her parents had introduced her to. So that kind of gave him credibility as like, listen, this is why I love having real cookies. On the podcast you made sure I didn't miss my Dringo moments. So Dringo, everyone. Well, and here's the psychic moment that you were referencing. I wanna read it out loud because it's important and it's gonna come up later. One day she was in New York City and she said the Jesus stuff was working for me. I was content overall. I figured worst case scenario, we all convinced ourselves of different things to make life go by a little easier. So I'd keep on believing. I guess I'll find out when I die. I thought, like, I'll find out if it was all real. And then everything went warm. My heart slowed. My skin suddenly hit a perfect temperature. As though all the cells in my body were moving in tandem with the sun. And my blood was a lazy river. In the empty cafe, in my empty Bo sat beside me. There was no flesh, no body to touch. There was only the deep and familiar presence of someone who leans in and spoke tenderly into my ear. The voice was gentle and masculine, joyful, weighty. And did I feel breath. Never doubt that I am real. I heard, okay, you're right, that's the psychic moment. What was I thinking? Love that she takes a moment to be like, God is a boy, Jesus boy.

[Natalie Katona]

Just so we're all clear.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Just so we're all clear, is a very masculine presence. But yeah, so that happened before any of this. And she sort has in her heart like I know Jesus is real. Okay, so back into the story. So she has already kind of grown apart from her parents, just in her life. But Pam and Les, who I want to remind you are not married, they have different spouses, but constantly on the book I was like, did they get married or something? But for some reason they're like the mom and dad of the cult. And at her own 21st birthday party, Pam is talking to her mom and she walks up to both of them and hears. And sometimes as parents we get so wrapped up in our own problems we just lose the ability to tend to our kids emotional needs. Pam smiled at me and pet my hair. Hi sweetheart. We were just talking about how amazingly resilient you are considering how much your parents struggled.

[Julia Washington]

No, fired by taking my Earrings out. We're going outside, bitch.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Like, no, your head is going into the champagne fountain that Bethany got for her birthday party that no one drank from. Because they were all Christian.

[Julia Washington]

Correct? Yes, that is why it's there.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Exactly. And so. But this is where the cracks are forming, where they are pushing her parents out and destabilizing the relationship in front of her. And the next thing that happens is really interesting, which is that in the book, we've learned that she has a crush on this guy named Blue Eyes. And she's, like, in love with him. She's like, I'm gonna marry him, but it's been eight years of hon and off. And somehow less is like, listen, get rid of Blue Eyes. Make this sacrifice to God, and, like, God will repay you. And I. I don't think he's that direct. She's still, like, in the group and thinking about it. And so she cuts things off with Blue Eyes. And this is going to be the crack that leads her into the cult. And I. I was like, this is so crazy that a crush is going to lead you into a cult. And that's when I realized she's 21. Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

And admittedly, boy crazy. Like, she is very clear about being boy crazy her whole life.

[Natalie Katona]

Also. Back and forth. They've kissed one time.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Oh, yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

They've been best friends for eight years, and they kissed one time. Wait, in front of the family.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I thought it was, like, one kiss and then another, like, dating time.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. Like, in front of the Lincoln center and then one, like, in high school or something.

[Natalie Katona]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

No, but you're right. Back and forth was too much for that. It's basically this guy she loves, and when she tells him, she calls him up and she's like, are you basically. Are you gonna marry me someday? Not now.

[Julia Washington]

In the future.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And he's like, I don't know. And she's like, it is over.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Because she's a child. She's a baby. That is, like, really key to all of this. She's so young.

[Julia Washington]

Yes. And I feel like in that scene, I was like, oh, this is literally every relationship I watched. My siblings are a lot older than I am, so I was watching a lot of, like, getting married at 20, 21 when I was in junior high. And it's so normal, in. At least in the Christianity I grew up in, to be like, starting planning your wedding at 19. Start. You know, you're married by 20, and it. No one bats an eye about. Like, are you sure? Like, do you Know that your brain's not fully developed yet. Like, are you sure this is a good idea? And there is that very much the heavy message of submissive wife is very much there from such an early age. So I thought it was interesting because she's so boy crazy, she's so desper to be in this relationship with blue eyes. And then also the added layer of the, of religion being like, you need to be married, like, this is just what you need to do. That's your only purpose. And then, and then she's like, here's my ultimatum. And I was just like, that's the 90s. That's everything I observed in the 90s.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Wow. Yeah, you are so right. And thank you for putting that into context because I'm like, what a little baby. And in her head I meant like youth wise. Like she's just very young, but in her head she's thinking, I should be married already.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And Mina's getting married and they're getting married and like everyone's falling in love.

[Julia Washington]

Why not me? Which isn't me, which we all feel that as women at some point in our lives. But the pressure, in the pressure cooker that Christianity puts on that is very real and very. I mean, I have a friend who decided not to go to the Olympics and get married instead. Like, that's how ingrained like it is to like get married.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, that, all of that tracks well when she breaks up is the word I'll use with blue eyes. Breaks up with a crush. They're like, hey, you should go visit God spa. And God spa is what they are calling Pam and Ed's house that Les has taken over. And she's like, you're right, let me go on a vacation. She's been acting, getting these little jobs, decides to fly to Idaho. When she gets to Idaho, a girl named Jasmine who's living in the house picks her up and she's like, this is so beautiful, all the trees. And then she gets to the town and it's like gross and hideous and like there's like a tiny strip mall and the house is weird and everything is weird and ugly. And I loved this part of the book where in with hindsight, she's like. And the house was disgusting and he couldn't, he didn't spell right and he put commas everywhere. And they like, they messed up their posters because. Yeah. What did you guys think of Godspot Spa?

[Natalie Katona]

Well, you're at the spa, showering in a weird moldy basement with some weird.

[Julia Washington]

Creepy guy in the Room next door. Like, it was truly.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. Like, I cannot. The moment. She was like, yeah. Unless used to be in the Marines or army or whatever. I was like, every cult leader is a man who is ugly and lame and has faked his military service.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

That is literally Ron Hubbard. That is the Nexium guy. All of them are like, I used to be in the military. Don't mind. Don't mind me. I would like to molest all of you. Like, because I'm very handsome. And there's this guy named Kurt who's at God Spa. And I'm sorry there's so many names, but listen, it's a lot. We're best. There's a new guy named Kurt, and he's Is really creepy, and he lives where the gross basement shower is. And when she comes in, she has a little bit of a cough, and he hands her some cough syrup, and she wakes up two days later. Is this not the most ominous entrance into the cult?

[Julia Washington]

Yes. I was like, oh, this is just gonna be like, all the red flags are there when you're on the outside, obviously. And it just goes to show you how desperate we are to find community. Because she's ignoring them, even though her gut is telling her, like, hey, red flag. But I do love how she handled it when she was like, here's your cough syrup back. And then that kind of caused, like, a moment between Les and Kurt and whatever his wife's name was.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. Because Kurt's wife sees that her husband has. Spoiler alert. Yet again, given a young woman hydrocodine and is like, now, Kurt, we talked about you drugging young women, and they all do nothing. And Kurt is like, oopsies, my bad. And she never realizes that maybe she shouldn't have taken that for her sore throat. Yeah. The.

[Natalie Katona]

The wives situation about, like, all of these. Number one, it happened in Abducted In Plain Sight too, where there's this silent wife who's just standing in the sidelines being like, now remember to be a good guy today. How about you be good in. In God's name I pray, be good. And then just going back into the shadows and.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And enabling it. It's like they are the abused and the abuser. And.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, I was gonna say I think a lot of it. Cause she talks a lot about, like, legal questions and illegal questions. And so that also kind of sent me into this weird. I thought I got rid of all the religious stuff out of my head, but, like, legalism is such a huge thing in. In parts. I don't know. If everyone's Christian experience is this way. But I'll. But legalism is such a huge part of some Christianity beliefs. And so I see a lot of that. Right. Like, they're doing that constantly with like, well, you're gonna live up to God's expectation. You're just gonna succumb yourself to God and he will handle everything. And it completely removes any accountability of like, no, stop drugging women. Like, that's the thing you can actually control.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Wait a minute. Okay, so I, I have to ask you about this because, yeah, I, I had no reference point for this where she is taught by Les. I thought this was his own special thing to hear that it's very popular. So he teaches don't ask illegal questions, which is very much just like, you know, don't question your surroundings and accept everything. What do you mean, legalism? Like, what, where does all that come from?

[Julia Washington]

So it's basically the concept or the idea that you give yourself over to God and live within God's image and you rely on God to give you your decision making power, your choices, all the things. So it removes essentially your autonomy to be able to say, like, does this feel right for me? Like, when she questions like, I don't think I should have married this person. And it's like, that's an illegal question. Because you should.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Because you're not supposed to question.

[Julia Washington]

Because you're not supposed to question what God has in store for you. So you need to completely succumb in that way. And when I was a kid, it didn't make any sense because I'm thinking, I mean, my dad worked in law enforcement, so I'm literally thinking laws and the legal system. And then as I got into high school, it was like, like, oh, you're giving us clear examples now that we're teenaged girls with tits about what we can and cannot do with our bodies and then referring to it as being, you know, the legalistic way of life, which is just another way of being like, give your shit to God and don't even bother.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And when Less is standing in for God, it's give your shit to Less.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

Meanwhile, he's tearing down her mother, her grandmother and aunt about being independent, feminist, boo.

[Julia Washington]

And like, specifically saying the Jezebel spirit. I wanted to throw the book. I was like, not Jezebel, of course, Jezebel. Sorry, Natalie, go ahead.

[Natalie Katona]

But no, it's that whole thing where it's like. And again, as someone who podcasts about everyday misogyny, if anyone knows anything about being judged For. For being a feminist. I guess it's me and Bethany. But like. Like the whole, like, Jezebel, do you think that you know who was probably the first feminist? Eve, if not Lilith.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. They're like, that bitch is dead.

[Natalie Katona]

And that bitch is why you have pain during childbirth. That's something that we were taught in ccd. I'm a recovering Catholic. We were taught that the reason why we had cramps and the reason why childbirth was so painful was because Eve had a snack.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I'm. I'm vaguely remembering this. I think I blocked a lot out. Yes. I was also taught that. Yes. And. And she's in these, like, living again living room Bible sessions in this Idaho house. And Les is like, oh, here's a book about Jezebel's. Like, don't be. Don't have your own checking account.

[Julia Washington]

Like, yeah, just like, constantly, like, oh, that Jezebel spirit's coming for you. And you're like, because she had an opinion that wasn't yours. Like, come on, dude.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, so she is now going back to la. She's so into God that she decides she is going to leave her apartment doors unlocked at all times in Los Angeles so that anyone who ever needs to come to her living room and study the Bible and have a God moment, they will be welcome and she will be, I don't know, loved in the eyes of God for leaving her apartment unlocked. And she said, I knew because this was for God that God would protect me from robbers. And I said, the robbers, you actually already live with them? Yeah. So. Yeah, so I guess you didn't need to lock them out. You live with them in God's spot.

[Natalie Katona]

Someone comes over at 3am and turns on a record player full of, like, chanting Christian hymns and, like, prayers and meditations. And I'm not a good person at 3am unless I'm on a bender and I've stayed up for 24 hours.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And. And. But she's like, ah, they're here because they needed a moment. I get it.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

My sacrifice.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I. I am like, oh, yeah, if you're gonna leave your apartment unlocked in the name of God there. What else? You know, it's a slippery slope. So, okay, so then she's slowly getting more and more indoctrinated. Camille starts to be cut out because Les realizes that she has a stable relationship with her parents and her parents intervene. And Camille has trust in them because she doesn't have a split relationship. And she says goodbye to the cult early and thank God. Camille gets out, but Bethany starts spending Christmases and holidays there, and everyone who's there is ignoring their biological families as they start calling them. And she wrote this. I thought it was such stunning writing. She's sitting in a beanbag and she said suddenly the super sized beanbag I was sitting in folded in around me and I was lifted off the ground. I could hear Les and Quiet Boy chuckling as I was wrapped tighter and tighter, so tight that I couldn't move. I felt extreme visceral panic. And then I had a rapid succession of flashbacks. Three nurses putting me into a straight jacket so the doctor could stitch up a cut under my elbow from a living room acrobatics incident. The man who played Boo Radley to my scout in that regional production of To Kill a Mockingbird, throwing me up into the air in an outdoor pool in Texas. It was the summer my parents got separated. Was he trying to date my mom? He later gave me a gold ID bracelet with his name on it. A boy in seventh grade shoving me against a chain link fence and holding a metal bat to my throat because he was mad at me for ignoring him. An 11pm meeting with the director James Toback. Full name, yes, we love with the meeting. Meeting director James Toback in his editing bay, naively thinking I was helping him out by meeting him late since he was on a long shoot, only to be paralyzed for an hour listening to him verbally undress me, saying things like, everyone likes to be licked in a different way. A young man in New York who was part of my church violently lifting and holding me against a wall on the street while our friends watched. He pressed his body into mine and said with hot breath, you'd better not talk like that unless you're ready to do something about it. I have no idea what I said, but I remember our whole group of friends doing nothing but waiting for it to be over. Les and Quiet Boy were laughing. Everyone was laughing. One, two, three. Quiet Boy said. And I was in the air, free for a moment.

[Natalie Katona]

And then they convinced her that everything was okay. Like she has this very triggering response where she walks herself through all of the times where it's been horrific to be a woman.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

And it's all happening again in the air. And when she lands, they start like tickling her or something and they're like, hahaha, this is fun. Isn't this fun? It's like on UK Love is Blind where that guy had his fiance in a chokehold whispering, trust me, trust me, everything's fine. Trust me.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yes. Yeah. Yes. And I thought that this was.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I just. The writing swept me away because we hadn't spent that time in her childhood yet. As as I know we all on this zoom know you go like yeah. This is so sad to say, but it's like, yeah, everyone. Every woman has 16 violently horrific moments in her life that then makes you feel like being being choked in a beanbag chair on Christmas by a dad and his son throwing you in the air is just like fun and sweet because at least they're not being as violent as the others.

[Natalie Katona]

Wow.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, so that goes into part two of the book and this is when she's going to get One Tree Hill. Okay, this feels like a good time to take a quick break. Thrive Cosmetics is my favorite makeup. They have thousands of five star reviews, they're cruelty free and they have my brand new favorite product that I have used every single day since I got it. It is their brilliant eye brightener, the shade Stella. I use this in conjunction with their Liquid Lash Extensions Mascara and it is gorgeous. I get so many compliments. It truly highlights your eyes and creates the most beautiful eyeshadow that has depth. Brighten your holiday look with Thrive Cosmetics Luxury beauty that gives back. Right now you can get an exclusive 20% off your first order at thrivecosmetics.com glamorous trash that's Thrive Cosmetics Medics C-A U S E M E T-I C S.com glamorous trash For 20% off your first order, go get that brilliant eye brightener shade Stella. This episode is brought to you by US Cellular. You shouldn't have to sacrifice a great experience to get a great deal. And U.S. cellular Prepaid agrees. Which is why right now you'll get a new Samsung Galaxy A15.5G for free without any hidden features fees like the device activation fees you get with those other prepaid providers. So you can use your free phone with US Cellular's nationwide 5G coverage to stay connected to the ones you love without having to make sacrifices. Terms apply. Visit uscellular.com for details. TIS the season for shopping and with Rakuten, it's also the season for stacking up the savings. Use Rakuten to stack cash back at thousands of stores on top of holiday sales. With Rakuten, you can save money on gifts for everyone on your list, from toys for the little one to kitchen gear for the hostess with the mostess to electronics for yourself. Did I mention that Rakuten is super easy to use? Just start your [e-mail] or in the Rakuten app. Do your shopping like you normally would and you'll get the cash back by PayPal or cheque. It's truly a no brainer. Join for [e-mail] or download the Rakuten app. That's R A K u t e n rakuten.com. okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation now. I thought the audition stories were great. She's meeting Chad Michael Murray. She does such a good audition. He like Chad Michael Murray.

[Julia Washington]

Yes. Yeah. Okay.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah, you got it.

[Julia Washington]

Okay.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Wife. I'm sorry. My friend Chad, my good friend Chad, he runs out to tell her that she got the audition. That's how good she was in the room that, like, the lead goes running out after her. And then before she signs the contract, an executive calls her manager and says verbatim, your actress needs to know this show is about and sucking. And if she's not down to do that, then don't sign the contract.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah, I literally wrote in my book. I was like, hello, Mark Schwann, Nice of you to get here.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay. How did you know this was Mark Schwan? Because that's different than the show creator, right?

[Natalie Katona]

No, well, I just assumed it was Mark Schwan because he's terrible and that's the show creator.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay. Okay.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah, I just assumed it was him. I think, like, I was like, hello, Mark. Thank you for arriving.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, well, okay, so this is what I really have questions about because. Because given that this creator, the show, Mark Schwann, I guess, was so abusive and horrible on that show that everyone on the show came out to write a letter during MeToo about it. I know Hillary they talk about in the podcast. Hillary talks about it. I didn't feel like the abuse was really addressed in Bethany's book.

[Julia Washington]

No.

[Natalie Katona]

So, and I have thought about this because again, they were a trio. And I think in the trio, each one of them played their different roles. Like he gave them a role. And I think Bethany was always the scapegoat. They have this awful story about Hillary, Sophia and Daniel, who played another character on One Tree Hill. Rachel going to Ma to do a Maxim shoot shoot. And Sophia and Hillary are so grossed out by being sexualized, they don't want to do the shoot or whatever. And Mark keeps telling them, well, I let Bethany say no because she said no first and she has all the morals, so she already got to say no. Meanwhile, Bethany doesn't know that they're going. Bethany then hears about it after the fact and they were like, mark wouldn't send you because you're too fat and the other women are hotter. So it was a lot of that.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Wow. Yeah. He really. And I. I now see why. Okay, I have to. Now. Now I have to go read another paragraph then. And then get your expertise. So she wrote this about Sophia. She said, I soon realized I wasn't equipped to get too close to Sophia. As bubbly and compassionate as she was, she was even more intelligent. She had the kind of brain that logged daily activities on a mental spreadsheet or could read Carl Sagan's Cosmos and tell, we make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. Her mind could have been put to good use by NASA. Except, of course, she's so beautiful, the astronauts would never want to leave Earth. She reminded me of the way I felt around Blue Eyes family. And his cheerleader, Sofia was a Nantucket girl, and I was trying so hard not to feel the sting of the comparison again. I failed to notice that she was also trying hard. Frequently favored and constantly underestimated in life because of her beauty, Sophia worked obsessively at proving her value, a character trait that made her perfect to play Brooke Davis, but clashed with my own insecurities and militant beliefs about how one should go about proving their value. I miss the irony that I was doing exactly the same thing, only I was using religion as my benchmark. My budding friendship with sweet Sophia became a casualty of this. And instead of sitting shiva for my ego, I really fucking wish I could turn back time, walk into her trailer, and give her a long, hard hug. I wrote what happened here.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah, number one. Like, I'm almost gonna cry again. Mostly because, like, I respect Sophia Bush so much. Like, I. Legend, beautiful, whatever. So I think the most heartbreaking thing about childhood is when you learn that the things that you loved most as a teen or something that you believe created you as a woman, like I do. The three women of One Tree Hill had some evil man attached to it. Okay, yeah, Drama queens. So drama queens has been really heartbreaking for me because I want so much for those three powerhouse women to root for each other until the end of time. And they couldn't for so many years, and now they're unpacking all of that. And I think what happened with Bethany was Sophia presents as very sure of herself. Meanwhile, it's the first season of One Tree Hill. She's getting naked in guys cars. She's fighting with writers to try to be like teen girls. Don't act like this. Like, no one is waiting naked in their boyfriend's car. She's trying to get Brooke to be a fully fledged character. And if you're Bethany and you're just, like, holding all of this, like, religious shame and secrets and you don't know what's going on with your own family, Sophia Bush is probably the scariest person to be friends with because you know that she's gonna know your.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Ah, yeah. Okay, this makes sense, because obviously, after reading that, I went and looked it up, and it was. They just had such a feud on set that obviously was being orchestrated by the creator. But then other cast members had to choose side between them because she also writes about how she and Hillary were natural friends because they're basically, they're crafty, they're creative, they're. And they love antiquing. It's kind of why their book covers are similar.

[Natalie Katona]

Like, they.

[Chelsea Devantez]

They. They were fast friends in a way that she and Sophia weren't. And so then when they realize they've been played by this creator for so long and then they're able to be friends again and start the podcast again, and now the friendship is unraveling again, I imagine that's really heartbreaking.

[Natalie Katona]

It is. Also, there is. And again, Reddit told me that, you know, I think part of the reason why I side with Hillary so hard is because she's a fellow witch. But also. And I think her and Jeffrey Dean Morgan are really hot, so I love photos of them.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Julia Washington]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

Oh, so hot. But also, I think Hillary at some point, point, was told or got to assume, and now we've assumed it as the fans that Bethany had something to do with Hillary being let go from the show.

[Julia Washington]

Right.

[Natalie Katona]

So to me, it's like, I forgave you for what happened on set, and we're doing this podcast together, and now you're copying my book cover, and now you're bringing in your weird conservative politics. And it's like, how much do we have to forgive and empathize towards Joy when she doesn't have the friendship stamina that Sophia and Hillary have? Because they've been friends continuously.

[Julia Washington]

But I also think that Joy's kind of set up for failure in the friendship department of the way that she was raised in the religion that she was raised in, and also in the cult that she got sucked into. So, like, now that once it came out that she was in a cult, it was like, oh, I guess it tracks that her relationship, her female friendships are falling apart. Like, that to me makes sense because of the way that, again, the brand of Christianity I was in as a child and in high school is. Doesn't support you being in a female friendship situation. You are very much at the mercy of your husband and your children. And if you do need support, your church family is here. So. But it's like, it's like the Pam types, right? Like, they come in and fix it for you. You don't rely on like, the Jasmine or like the others.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. Like the younger female friends who you could have connected more with. Or Mina, who she's kind of separated from Mina, who she. Into the group.

[Julia Washington]

Right, right. And even though in the book with Less, it was very clear that he's driving these wedges between the women on purpose, it's not always that clear and intentional within Christianity in general. And so, you know, there's a lot of, like, relationship building that she still needs to learn how to do. I guess I don't want to sound.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Cruel about it, but it's.

[Natalie Katona]

No, absolutely.

[Chelsea Devantez]

She. And she lost relationship building years, her entire twenties to the cult. So. So do you think after this book comes out and what's in it, there is any chance that they could become friends again? Because it felt like she wrote very olive branch type things towards them?

[Julia Washington]

I agree with you, Chelsea, but Natalie's more of an expert on whether or not that's a reality than I am.

[Natalie Katona]

The only thing that keeps me going from, like, yes, bring my trio back together girl power is the rumors about the secret Instagram account that post anti trans propaganda and leans towards anti trans stuff.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Right, right. Allegedly. Because it's. It's Dumois. But yeah, continue.

[Natalie Katona]

Because I think what makes me. Because I was projecting a lot today onto it during my walk and I was like, I think what makes me so mad about Bethany while I was listening to her is that she gets to be mature about this. Like, oh, of course. Hillary and I have had some really huge misunderstandings that I hope one day we walk through with love.

[Julia Washington]

Right.

[Natalie Katona]

And it's like, of course you get to be mat because you're the person that people are just screaming in comments like, can't we all just get along and agree to disagree? And it's like, why do. Like, I, as a feminist and a liberal and somewhere on the queer spectrum, woman, I'm tired of being asked to, like, get along with people who don't believe that people deserve human rights. Like, I'm tired. Like, I can't disagree. Like, I can't agree to disagree when it comes to. To kids receiving healthcare.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, that was really beautifully said, and I did a great job booking guests for this podcast. Okay, so when we go back into the book, she has just gotten One Tree Hill, and that means that she's no longer gonna get to be at this Bible group at Pam and Ed's house and Idaho, where it's called Godspa. She is not gonna spend time there either, because she's gotta go live exactly where they used to film Dawson's Creek in North Carolina and start shooting One Tree Hill. However, Les and Nicole are very happy because it means she's gonna start earning a lot of money. And basically, they say, we wanna fly and have a meeting with you. And when they land, they have these, like, terrible pamphlets that are printed out at Kinko with spelling mistakes and they look terrible. And Kurt, the creepy hydrocoding guy is there, and they tell her they want to buy this disgusting motel in Idaho. I don't know what town they're in. And they want to turn it into a ministry. And that they have a ton of incredible investors. And if she wants in on this, like, ha, opportunity, like, she should apply now. And their investors are other people in the group's moms.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah. And they prey on her insecurities again, because immediately she goes, oh, we can afford it because it's a motel. And they told her it was a hotel. And they're like, well, of course Ms. Snobby Hollywood doesn't think that our building's fancy enough. And then she's like, that's right. I'm evil. I'm prideful. I. Here, take my $10,000.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. Which I was very. Because they say, how much do you make? Tell us right now. And I was. I was thankful it was $10,000 and not her entire paycheck. But I have a question for you both about this. So she said, he was right, that I'd stayed in many nice places, but I knew there was a difference between a hotel and a motel. I wasn't a complete idiot. A hotel is where you stay with your family on vacation, and a motel is where you stay when you pick up a hooker or drive a Mountain Dew truck across the country. Nevertheless, I didn't want to argue. I wrote, yeah, that's supposed to be a. I'm only assuming it's a joke because it's so insane. But it's not written with any joke format in mind.

[Natalie Katona]

I think it's mostly just like, oh, there's Natalie's one piece of evidence that she might be a Classist, conservative.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. That's why I was bringing it up where I was like, I think you're right, and I think there's little tiny things poking through. But I couldn't believe that even made it past, like, an editor, especially with the word hooker.

[Natalie Katona]

We don't use hooker.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And not only that, a motel is also where you stay when your name is Chelsea and you're on a budget trip. Like, I'm like, is she serious? She knows people stay in motels. Right. I was just very confused.

[Julia Washington]

I don't think. And again, again, that's the, like, to Nali's point, the classism of it all. But also, again, like, the really grossness that's rooted in Christianity about how you're supposed to be living.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

They're in a stained house that the barbarians are kicking holes through.

[Julia Washington]

When she said there was a layer of grime, I was like, okay, what is wrong with this picture? We were told that Pam is very pristine. She keeps the apartment in such a great condition. And then you show up to the Idaho big family house, and there's layers of grime. Pam is unwell. Something's wrong. What is happening?

[Chelsea Devantez]

Like, this Pam has been overtaken by Les. And also, more than grime, there's just clumps of cat hats and dog.

[Julia Washington]

Yes. Everywhere. And I was just. The whole time she's describing it, I'm like, I could use less description because this is making me want to clean my house even though I cleaned it yesterday.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Like, yeah, yeah. Okay. I. Okay, well, we will keep clocking those things because there's one more coming, Natalie, that I think is going to go with the theory. The theories that you presented. And Julia, yes. The house. House gets so disgusting. But that is also where you're like, I get that we've been groomed into a cult, but the dog has to alarm.

[Julia Washington]

Well, how is it not alarming? How are you not going like, oh, there's something that smells in here. It's not me.

[Natalie Katona]

What?

[Julia Washington]

You know what I mean. It's like, it's.

[Chelsea Devantez]

It's like it literally happened to this nice house.

[Julia Washington]

It's literally something that when I worked for the government, we would look for doing home visits for the elderly to see if we needed to remove them from the situation.

[Natalie Katona]

Oh. Oh.

[Chelsea Devantez]

It's like a red flag on a spreadsheet.

[Natalie Katona]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devantez]

It's like a checklist.

[Julia Washington]

Yes.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

So, like, the whole time and she keeps going back, and no one's like, hey, maybe the house shouldn't smell like it was just so Alarming to me, because, Pam, you. If you're getting dicked down by less, it better be so good that you can't figure out that your house smells like.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, I guess. But also, there's. So there's so many other names of people in this house we haven't even mentioned because it would be too confusing. But there's a lot of people who could be cleaning this up. Okay. So then she's back on set, and she realizes she's really lonely. She wants to be by the cast members. Like, they told her to isolate herself and not have ungodly thoughts and not ask illegal questions. And yet she's like, I want to be near town. And so she moves into a new apartment. She starts singing, she starts hanging out with people. And Les calls her and is like, did you talk to anyone before you moved? Like, this was really dangerous. Like, why did anyone. You consult me before moving? And she's like, I didn't. What? Like, I didn't think I needed to ask you in Idaho if I could move. And he's like, come home for Christmas. You need to have a meeting for your benefit. And the way he talks her into it is masterful of, like, we just want to help you and love you. And so she goes home for Christmas, gets into this basement, and for, like, three hours, they, like, make her read her journals. And it was really confusing. I truly couldn't understand the point of it. What did you think of the. And the basement meetings, like, keep happening?

[Julia Washington]

Horrifying. Like, first of all, no, you don't get to ask to read my journal.

[Natalie Katona]

That is shit.

[Julia Washington]

That is going to get burned when I'm on my deathbed because it's, like, the deep.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And mine's gonna get published. Go ahead.

[Natalie Katona]

Mine is getting read at my funeral, and then my best friend is going to ask people to leave after their section.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I love it.

[Julia Washington]

I love it.

[Chelsea Devantez]

But, yeah, but, yeah, you don't get to ask for that.

[Julia Washington]

You don't get to ask for that. That's too personal. That's too deep. And she did have hesitation at first, but still to comply with it, I think, shows you just how desperate she is and how eager she is to remain a part of this community.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

I think also it's another example of how shame was used as a tool in this organization. And I was just thinking about, like, how I'm 35 years old and it still feels. Feels really bad to get scolded. Like, it feels bad and, like, to the point where, like, last Monday, I got Scolded. And I laid in bed all day and cried for the rest of the day. I was like, I'm done. I will just cry and scream and all of it. I'm 35. She's a baby, 21.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

Being scolded at for three hours about her own personal thoughts that she wrote down because she felt them in the moment.

[Julia Washington]

Right. And she had already worked through and processed those. So then to have them come up again and be like, what? What do you think that was about? And she's like, oh, I processed it already.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Also, they were like, why are you talking about yourself in your journal? You should be talking about God. And like, you're really selfish. And, like, the main character of your journal should be God.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah, that interesting. I don't know.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I mean, it's so. Yeah. And then. So lots and lots of things are happening. Like, she overhears a conversation where Les says Mina might be bipolar. And the way it's. I think we're around 2000 something here, it's really weaponized as like. Like, oh, that is a dangerous, unhinged, gross woman. By using a mental health diagnosis that is wasn't in happening. And also was like, just his word.

[Julia Washington]

But also she had just had a baby as well, right?

[Chelsea Devantez]

Oh, yeah.

[Julia Washington]

Right.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Meaning they were like the Lord. Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

Her postpartum.

[Chelsea Devantez]

This was the other thing. And I need to ask you about this. Okay. So their other big thing was don't let people tell lies about your identity.

[Julia Washington]

Oh, I hated it.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And so they would be like, it is a lie that Mina has postpartum, and God knows that she doesn't. Is that also something that you are familiar with, Julia, in Christianity? No.

[Julia Washington]

Well, in postpartum, wasn't really talked a lot about. Right. As we know. But I don't ever remember it being a conversation in this way. The way that he brings it up in the book.

[Chelsea Devantez]

What about the lies about your identity?

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, the lies about your identity is real.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. I was like, oh, what a great way to just make shit up. So they'd be like, my brother is being mean. And they'd say, well, in the eyes of God, he's perfect, so tell him he's a good guy.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. And I was like, the line for toxic masculinity, we drew it right there.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

Julia, I now understand why you were so upset while we were reading this. And I could have been a better friend.

[Julia Washington]

Well, I also told you, don't talk to me about it because we're recording. And I can't, like, let my Emotions out beforehand. Because then Chelsea will ask questions, and I'll be like, I don't know. I talked to Natalie already.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Thank you for saving your processing for me. Wait till the podcast to read your journal entries. Thank you. Okay, so a lot of manipulation is going on around this point. Les is like, hey, just so you know, like, your mom emailed me, and, like, she's annoying, right? And so did your dad. And just so you know, if they're ever bothering you, like, give them to me. And she's like, yeah, they are annoying. He's like, I don't mind talking to them, girlfriend. Later, we'll find out that her parents are desperately trying to get her out of this cult, and it is not working. So at the same time, Harker has. He's booking movies, TV shows. He's got a band. And she says when Harker booked a movie, Les would join him on set as a prayer intercessor for spiritual support and even started writing a film script with him. It was about warriors. Of course, now we've all related to the book in various ways, but here's where my psycho dad. Not dad, they just love warriors. They can't get enough that kung fu warriors fighting. Being in the Marines, you lay. And then she said Les would start vision casting, which I guess is the other psychic moment where he would have these visions of, like, you should do this movie, Harker. Or in this next scene, you should hold a sword.

[Julia Washington]

It was so cringe. It's so painful.

[Natalie Katona]

I went to the Science and Industry Museum with my best friend, and we went to the, like, World War II submarine that lives in its space. It. And to, like, watch grown men who have never seen war just, like, caress the submarine and, like, cry softly to themselves as they're watching war videos. I'm like, why do men love war?

[Chelsea Devantez]

I don't know.

[Natalie Katona]

You've never been there.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Listen, we did Band of Brothers. It was great. Stop making these movies over and over and over again and give me a second. Broad City. Yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

I beg of these.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, so wait, can I also add Chelsea, Please?

[Julia Washington]

Les is obsessed with the Soprano. Sopranos.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah, Tony's Soprano.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And he watches it every.

[Julia Washington]

Every night, which I think is a huge part of, like, his behavior as well. He's, like, trying to merge God and Tony Soprano.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I think you're absolutely right. And please don't let me go past the Sopranos portrait when you get to them.

[Natalie Katona]

God is mafia. Daddy.

[Julia Washington]

Yes.

[Natalie Katona]

Put it on a T shirt.

[Chelsea Devantez]

He sees himself as Tony Soprano. Like, the world is out to get me, but I'm the hero who's going to fight them off. And every night he, like, gathers these special. God invitees those who have been good to, like, come to the bedroom and, like, watch Tony.

[Natalie Katona]

And they chant the theme song as a prayer. Woke up this morning, yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Oh, oh. Okay. So then she is again, is like, everyone is pairing up. Everyone within the cult is just marrying each other. And she says, I, no joke, met a cute Christian carpenter in North Carolina. And after one month, they are engaged. And she writes in the book, I didn't have anything in common with him.

[Natalie Katona]

There was.

[Chelsea Devantez]

There was no reason for us to be engaged or married. We were not a match. But I really wanted it to work. So she brings him home to the family, and they're like, we don't like him. We don't see it for you. Like, he's not gonna move to Idaho because he has a career in North Carolina. So she comes back, she dumps him, and this is when everyone on realizes, like, she had a fiance, brought him to the cult and no longer has a fiance. Like, we think something's really wrong, and. But she sees it as she's being isolated and whispered about. She doesn't realize, like, people are truly worried about her. And then. I don't know why this made me so. I mean, I know why it made me so sad. But throughout the book, it's really well written because we know that she loves Beauty and the Beast and that her lifelong dream is to play Belle in Beauty and the. The Beast on Broadway. That's the dream. And when she gets the audition and books the role and is going to be Belle on Broadway, her lifelong dream, she says the first person she calls is her mom. The second person she calls is her dad, which was interesting for her because she only spoke to the cult people at that point. And that's because she realized that he was going to tell her not to do. And so she calls Les, and he says, you need to sacrifice this. And I'm gonna paraphrase, but he's like, basically, don't do your lifelong dream on Broadway. And, like, God's probably gonna give you a husband.

[Natalie Katona]

It literally made me ill. Like, I screamed. I think I cried. I.

[Chelsea Devantez]

You're so sad for her.

[Julia Washington]

Yes. It's. Again, it's very much what you do in Christianity. Don't go to the Olympics even though you qualified and are the best, like, the second best in the country. Get married. It's fine.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I mean, Chapel Roan turned down this, like, full art scholarship to a school because she was heavily in Christianity and was going to marry her marine boyfriend. Happens. So she's like, you're right. Everyone around her who knows, it's her dream. This is just a huge turning point and how deep she's in it. And she returns to Idaho and she's like, where the fuck is my sacrifice? I'm not playing Belle and Beauty and the Beast. And she's like, oh, you know what? What? I think I have a crush on Quiet Boy.

[Natalie Katona]

The shock of the book.

[Julia Washington]

Really? Yeah. And again, okay, I don't think so, because she kind of gave us little nuggets throughout. Like the Christmas gift, I'm gonna say.

[Chelsea Devantez]

On page 100, I wrote, oh, no, is she gonna marry Quiet?

[Julia Washington]

That's about where I caught it too.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

There were a hundred pages of you just thinking he was gross. So I thought it was just well written because you're like, no, no, no, not him. No, come on. And basically there's these like 12 people and they have all folded up together. So characters we haven't even mentioned have now started marrying each other. Everyone within this tiny group is falling in love with each other. What do you know? And she goes to Les and she's like, hey, I think I'm just lonely and jealous of literally everyone pairing up inside this cult. And so I've developed this weird crush on your son. And Les is like, I don't think it's weird. It's destiny. You should marry. And like eight weeks later, they. She marries him on her break from One Tree Hill. And he is 21 and she is 24.

[Julia Washington]

And I found the blog post where she announced it on her blog.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And we are linking that in the Patreon.

[Julia Washington]

I will. And I will send it to you.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Weirdly, I will say it is a very happy. Which one of you sent me the wedding photo? Me, Natalie. Okay. It's a very happy wedding photo given what it was describes. Like. And also that 21 year old looks like he is 37. That did not look like a 20 year old, 21 year old.

[Julia Washington]

It's a hard life in Idaho because.

[Natalie Katona]

Now I want a side by side of like her actual wedding to her wedding to Nathan Scott and James Lafferty with the good arms on One Tree Hill because she talks about how, you know, I had already done two weddings with James Lafferty, Nathan Scott, and so I knew how to play this role. So I was happy bride that day. Literally dying on the inside. Like literally being like, this is gross. I hate everyone. I look bad the carpet looks bad. Like our photos look bad.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I know I don't actually like him, but kind of like God has deemed this right. So I'm sure if I go through with it, he will make us perfect for each other. And these are the conversations that she's having. This is what Les is telling her now. Harker, thank God, pulls her aside with Mina and they're both like, don't marry, quiet boy. Like, don't do this. And then of course that upsets in the group of like, how dare you speak on my son and all these things. And as soon as she marries him, she signs him onto all of her bank accounts. This 21 year old boy who is known to hit, to punch holes through doors and who has asked her things like, who is Marilyn Monroe and is Julia Roberts the teeth lady? These are real quotes in the book.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, he's never had a job and.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I mean, so he's the cult leader's son. It is just you. You're screaming at her, you're like, please don't do this. But she believes she has sacrificed Beauty and the Beast. So there's a husband somewhere. Guess it's the last man standing in the house. And he says, I'm gonna surprise you and I'm gonna plan the honeymoon for you. You now with her money, he got signed onto those accounts fast. And he plans the honeymoon for Colorado.

[Julia Washington]

And she wanted Paris, dropping his Paris and other places. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And they are both virgins, which is another big part of this. And they have both been promised this. I like that she wrote about it. She was like, God said, sex is amazing if you Wait. So. So he's thinking like, well, we're not going to leave the room anyway because this is about to be amazing. And she's like, and this is supposed to be some blessing. And then it's terrible sex. And they're just pissed at each other and hate being married. 30 seconds in.

[Natalie Katona]

Oh, she has to be put on a sex schedule with him.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, I didn't need more details on the schedule.

[Natalie Katona]

So, you know, she wasn't doing her wifely duty, so Les was like, I know, write it down on the calendar when you have to do it.

[Chelsea Devantez]

It's so sad. It's so much manipulation. Like your, your heart is broken for her. And then. Okay, two little tangents. We got a Dringo. Prince is here. Prince has come in the book to tell her that she has a nice ass, which she cannot tell less. And her husband, quiet boy, because you know, it'd be jezebel behavior and be so bad.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

So take your drink, go there. And then the other moment is that 8A talk about Reddit. A Reddit fan of One Tree Hill who she has named Danielle has gotten herself into the cult by trying to get closer to Harker and Bethany. And Les is like, come on in. But Danielle, thank God, is going to slowly be the key that breaks this cult down. It's amazing.

[Julia Washington]

This is where like message boards are really like a gem. I know, like everyone, everyone likes, likes to tease and stuff because Reddit is a lot. But sometimes you're like, no, we, we needed that Reddit thread. We need, we needed that truth.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I, yeah, I think like on the right message boards, it's, it's just Jim, it's people who are very thoughtful and want to say some shit to each other. Agreed. On the right. Again, on the right boards. On the wrong boards. You know, it's, it's something else. But she really is like, okay, so it sounds like she's a part of this cult and they're having a conference in this disgusting motel. I'll get a ticket. Les is like, hey, who are you? And she's like, I'll stay here and move here. Now she does fall prey to it for a while, but she's gonna wake up a little bit later.

[Julia Washington]

So we love Danielle and she's the last one let in. I think that's also really important to note.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

And because at this point Les has decided that he can do financial management.

[Natalie Katona]

Oh yeah. And other, it's called triad.

[Julia Washington]

And like other like other things aside from like counseling.

[Chelsea Devantez]

He's a counselor. He's a doctor.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah. He is a marriage counselor.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Bethany transfers. She's had business managers almost her entire life because she's a child actor. Transfers all her accounts to Triad. And the accountant working there is a girl named Gretchen who lives in the house, who never makes her bed and doesn't speak. And they're like, Gretchen is an accountant and isn't.

[Julia Washington]

Doesn't Bethany does or Joy describe her as having Cheeto hands? Or like she's always like got Cheeto bags everywhere around her space.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, uh huh. And she's got Cheeto fingers as she like does the management. And I mean, so now the, now everything is falling around her. She takes this last moment to try and get the rights to the Notebook. And she said, I wasn't Belle in Beauty and the Beast, but I'm going to write a musical for the Notebook for Broadway for me to play Ally in. And I'm gonna put it up with my own money. She has this creative project with this songwriter. They mount a Notebook musical and her husband, Quiet Boy, says she is not allowed to play Ally, the lead, who she's written a whole musical for, because she would have to put her kissy face on someone else's face. And that's Jezebel behavior. And so she's like, well, this is just, you know, the rehearsals, so it'll be okay. Like, I'll play her when she gets to Broadway and she puts it up and the rights get. She doesn't. She eventually doesn't get the actual stage rights, even though like five people bid on the musical. And she said she still grieves it to this day.

[Natalie Katona]

Well, and she also found out through, I don't know, message boards, Hollywood secrecy. I'm barely literate in any of this. But she finds out that someone blocked her from getting the rights and she assumes that it was Les or someone like.

[Julia Washington]

No, I think she assumes somebody from Warner Brothers who then takes it to. To because that person's somehow affiliated with the people who do make the Notebook musical happen.

[Natalie Katona]

Oh, with Ingrid?

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

Wow.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And she talks about how even when she sees posters or things for it, like, she has to like, look away because it's too painful. I really, I really related to that too. Certain projects that go away, it's hard.

[Natalie Katona]

It's also just like every time she mentions giving up a role or a project or something not going her way. And it's because of that idiot husband that didn't even get a real nickname. He got like a letter or two, like qb. Qb. QB for quiet boy. I like, my heart just shattered because I'm like, yeah, what do you guys even talk about? Like, oh.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And I mean, she, they. They hate each other. They. Les has him move away from her so that it'll be easier to stay married if they don't live in the same state. And he's back in Idaho and she's working the show. And then so at this point, the rumors and people realizing that she is in a cult is going around and instead of getting her out of the cult or an intervention, people are dropping her and considering her like, disgusting. And so her, her music management, she was on a label and was making records and they're like, we're gonna drop you because you're making your husband beyond the. Your 21 year old jobless husband is like on the phone calls. And she said, we try and do stuff in unity. And she just enters this zombie, like state. Where three years go by, she's like, and then it was like that for three years. So we skipped three years ahead. Then they have a child. So much is happening, but we're just gonna get through a few things. And then Gretchen is like, hey, I know I've been running the accounting firm, but I need to have a meeting with you. I've stolen all the money and I've gambled.

[Julia Washington]

Gambled it?

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah. Cheeto Fingers took all your money and gambled it on online poker or something.

[Julia Washington]

And never finds out how much. Right?

[Chelsea Devantez]

Like, she doesn't ask how much, because Les and her husband, Quiet Boy, are like, we forgive you, Gretchen, and it is the godly thing to do to forgive you. And, like, should you be mad, Bethany? Like, you're a bad Christian. Even though it's not Quiet Boy's money, it's Bethany. Bethany's money.

[Julia Washington]

The thing, too, about that, when she had the reflection of, like, he was less mad about the embezzlement than he was about anything else I'd ever done, I was like, yeah, girl.

[Chelsea Devantez]

She's like, you get mad at, like, the sweatpants I wear because it'll make men think of being on the couch with me. But you're not mad that she stole all the money?

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. Yeah. Especially because you guys are stealing money from her, too. Like, yeah, that's money that you could have stolen. No, I mean, but it was just.

[Chelsea Devantez]

You could have stolen that money. But then Gretchen did. Aren't you mad? Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

Well, and then.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, so there's. There's other things happening. Like, there's this whole Jasmine and Dante storyline.

[Natalie Katona]

So hard.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And the. The really. It's a long storyline that we like. It's just too much to get into. But the thing I want to call out is that we've come to know Jasmine as this really lost soul who found redemption and a place to be in this house. And when things start cracking, we learn this about Jasmine. Jasmine, she said, they trapped me into this. I was supposed to be here temporarily and then transfer to Stanford, but Les convinced me I needed to stay and learn to be a part of a family first. I was gonna go to Paris, too. I had all these plans, and instead I left them all behind to work at a shithole motel and marry a guy with a porn addiction who cheats on me and lies to me. We've got two kids. I don't know what to do. I was like, they stopped her on her way to college. Cause again, amazing writing. Because the whole book, you're thinking Jasmine was Lost. And, like, her only purpose was this weird house.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. Okay, here's where they're like, whoopsie doopsy. We mismanaged the hotel. We sold it. You all lost money. Bethany, you and QB have now bought us a restaurant, like the Supremacist. And Bethany is, like, as a gift to unite the family, I got portraits taken of us dressed and looking like the Sopranos posters.

[Natalie Katona]

Put it online.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, you bet your ass I found those. Okay, so my inside source, sensitive gag reflex found the posters and pictures of everyone. And I'm gonna put that on the Patreon. And the posters are painful, I bet.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Julia Washington]

Home. And the fact that she thought that this was gonna be the most brilliant gift. You're just like, sweetheart, I need to give you a hug.

[Natalie Katona]

And then she really. Big hug.

[Chelsea Devantez]

A big hug. And less. Can you imagine how much he got off on it that night?

[Julia Washington]

Oh, my God. Yes. I hate.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Posed as Tony Soprano in posters. I will be showing you all. And he's, like, leaned forward, looking all gross, posing like, he's the dude. All right, so go ahead now.

[Natalie Katona]

Well, and then she's also like, the hotel was gross because I had nothing to do with it. The restaurant. Nice. It'll be nice.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Because, yeah, she's like, I'm gonna weigh in this time and be like, get nice. Napkins, Cloth napkins, please. But they take all of her money to remake the one restaurant in town that they used to eat at. And things are falling apart now. Thank God. So another hero storyline, I think. Unclear. I'm gonna ask you, Julia, specifically, Harker sends out an email where he's like, me and Mina are leaving because I really needed to study religion. And now that I've studied religion, we're going to go to a different religion. Here's my question. Did he leave for a different cult?

[Julia Washington]

No, I think he. Listen, I don't. Once I. Okay, Chelsea, I appreciate you asking me this question. When I was, I don't know, 19 and found out he left General Hospital because of religious reasons, I was like. And I'm done with Jonathan Jackson because that breaks my heart. Like. Because, like, why I loved you as Lucky you betrayed me. Anyway, so I. But I do know that his family's still religious. They're still, like, connected to that.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Oh, yeah. Oh, and he's still religious. It's just a different. He's just leaving the family. He's leaving the place and the pieces.

[Julia Washington]

And the sense that I got from how she described it in the book is, you know, that Exposure to understanding theology in an academic way does sort of lead you to a different path of religion. And I don't want to, like, it's not. I don't want to say it like, it prevents you from getting into another cult. It doesn't. But it does make you a little bit more aware and discerned. And the reason why I wanted to point out about the home church versus being affiliated with the church is because there is no accountability with Les and his group. So there is no, you know, board of deacons, no head pastor. Like, there's nobody saying, like, hey, this is the direction that is part of our, like, doctrine. And how we need to, like, function and guide these sheep, our little lambs, is so, you know, he's able to be in complete control in that way, because there isn't any governing body, if you will, to be like, hey, bro, maybe don't make girls shower in the bathroom downstairs with the creepy.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I love the distinction you're making, because it's often what I talk about with New Age scams, where I'm like, new Age scammers are more than religious scammers, because religious scammers need an official building called a church. And a New Ager can scam from their living room, they can scam from the park. You know, I mean, they can show up at a yoga studio and be like, scams on. Now, the one thing I'll say, though, is that even with, like, I. I think of Hillsong, like, all that shit was allowed to happen, and they had a deacon and authorities and all that stuff. So it's not like that would have stopped it either.

[Julia Washington]

No, absolutely. I'm not saying that it would have, but it definitely, to me, changes things, because that was part of Joy's dad's issue, was like, who is he responsible to? And then that question, that illegal question in Joy comes up a couple of times, and I think Harker even challenges it as well. Like, who are you? Or maybe it's Abe after Harker and Mina. But anyway, yeah, because, well, who are you responsible to then, Les? Like, who. Who is keeping you accountable? And, you know, that whole idea of, like, there needs to be checks and balances for a reason, because, yeah, I mean, we see it. The absolute power completely destroyed all these lives. And that's just Les's vibe.

[Chelsea Devantez]

That's just his vibe. Well, you're right. And. But them leaving, like, opens the door for people to start walking out. A lot of stuff happens. Like, poor Miguel and Juana, these characters we have gotten into. They got roped into this whole thing. Then, like, the people they've been serving turns around, calls him a slur. There's this, like, really violent episode at a park. Another Abe's wife is like, punching Kurt. And you're like, hell, yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

But also, like, Abe almost goes flying between.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's a lot. And then I wrote, I can't believe this is the most shocking part of the book. But on page 264, she said Danielle, like, gave her some compliments, and she said, no one ever told me what a good job I'd done, acting a scene or performing a song. Like, no one in this cult had ever said good job. And they had never even watched One Tree Hill. They only watch the Sopranos. And so I was like, I can't believe that this is one of the most shocking details in the book. But it is.

[Julia Washington]

Which tracks, because he fully tells her back in la, in the apartment, like, hey, Joy, maybe don't sing so loud. Like, other people are singing too. And you're like, what? I'm like, she's good.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And she's like, oh, sorry. I'm terrible. I'm terrible. I know this is why I would end up in a cult, because I love to feel powerful. And if someone was like, but no, I mean, I mean, I listen, I think I'm speaking for a lot of people here, but, you know, someone's like, you're a piece of shit. And you're like, I knew it. Knew it.

[Natalie Katona]

You and me are on the same page. Someone's like, natalie, stop saying it's bad. And I'm like, you're right. Why would I question that?

[Chelsea Devantez]

And you know what? Let me. Let me amend that. Okay. Maybe past me. Me today. Very strong.

[Julia Washington]

I was gonna say. I feel like you were very strong and cool, Chelsea.

[Chelsea Devantez]

No, I am. I am. I'm mostly joking, but I can just see. I don't know. I, I, I. I can listen. I was in improv for a long time. That's a different type of cult. Like, I. When people are like, oh, I'm stronger than this. I'm like, oh, absolutely not me. The right circumstances. Like, I'm in. So she eventually, we come back to the beginning of the book when she realizes she's in an abusive marriage and it's time to go. Because of this, she realizes, like, her, the light in her daughter's eyes is going out. And she goes to the bank where Juano works.

[Julia Washington]

Works.

[Chelsea Devantez]

That's been her job the whole time. And she Sits down. She's like, oh, that's right. You work at a bank. You work at the bank in Idaho. And she's like, how much money is in my account? And she shows her, and she's like, $200,000. And she's like, okay, it's missing $2 million. And Juana, who's not supposed to do this because her husband's name is on the accounts, signs the $200,000 back to Bethany and she begins her divorce. Go ahead.

[Natalie Katona]

She gets gives QB 30 grand to live off of for a year. Like, which I could never be me. Could never be me.

[Chelsea Devantez]

No, no.

[Natalie Katona]

The amount of times I've told women, like, let's get an account in your name and take everything. It'll be fun for five minutes. Like, come on.

[Julia Washington]

I literally had a relative who went through a divorce during 2020, hid every single dime she could with another family member. So that way, her now ex husband could not get access to any of that money, and she successfully kept all of it.

[Chelsea Devantez]

We love a hero. On. On such a sad episode where Bethany is like, yeah, leave him $30,000. And then later in court, they're going to be like, by the way, you stole your husband's joint account money and you owe him that money back simply because he had been added to her accounts. Let this be a legal lesson for everyone listening. Well, I'm really, really, really sad to say. On page 270, you must Dringo. She does list her exactly weight, but it is while she's trying to shove out quiet boy's mom who's trying to get into the house, and she's like, all 115 pounds of me were shoved up against her. 115 pounds. And things are just falling apart. And then I'm curious what you will think she said, I thought the photo I'd commissioned that hung in the restaurant. I thought of that photo I'd commissioned that hung the restaurant in my mind. The image morphed, and fangs began to sprout from everyone's smile. I'd been dining with vampires. No. I realized I am the dinner. This is the title of the book, which I love. Yeah, this fell very flat for me. How did it hit for you both?

[Natalie Katona]

Well, I think I made it hit profound for me because you loved the title of the book and put that in your story. So I was like, yeah, here we go. Say the name of the book.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I just. I just didn't understand. Like, you can't give me the title. Out of nowhere, in two sentences about realizing they are vampires and you're the dinner. Like, this needs to be threaded throughout the whole. There's a world where this was the most impactful sentence ever. You were introducing vampires on page 272 and never coming back to them. And, like, it is a. It is the metaphor. She's been dining with vampires who are bleeding her dry. I just. For as well written as the book is, I was really surprised. I was just really surprised at this. I was like, oh, no, oh, no.

[Natalie Katona]

Oh, no, oh, no.

[Chelsea Devantez]

All right, so she's starting to get out of the cult. Who comes through motherfucking clutch at the last second? Danielle. She's like, we're packing your boxes. We're moving you out of here. Here's when you arrive. Here's where your bitch ass husband will be. By the way, Les is selling me the restaurant. No, Les is selling me the house. I'm gonna renovate it and flip it. I'm out of the cult too. Like, go. Be free. I'm like, damn, Danielle from Reddit. Really?

[Julia Washington]

She really did.

[Chelsea Devantez]

She really did. And it's, you know, it's all happening a lot slower than how we are recapping it, but she reunites with her dad, who she's been estranged from, and he walks in, and she says, before she can say anything, he sets down this giant folder. And she said, watch this. The last six years of my life, my dad said. After I cut him out, I thought he'd simply tried to forget about me and moved on with his life. Instead, he devoted his time to studying cults, learning how they worked, and chasing down any information he could about Les. I was so moved, I burst out crying. Then as I flipped through the folder's contents, I felt like crying for a different reason, realizing how little I knew about Les and how gullible and naive I'd been. It was page after page of emails, letters, and newspaper clippings, and basically there was no way she could have ever gotten him in court, except her dad had already done six years of research so that she could get custody of her daughter. In the margins, I wrote, I want his dad.

[Natalie Katona]

No, Chelsea, no. They're not all like that.

[Julia Washington]

Okay? But I. I will say mine is like that. Mine. Mine is absolutely like that.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Because fucking rule, man.

[Julia Washington]

Because I went through a similar situation of having to fight for custody and child support. And it was Ed who taught me, taught all of us, because he used to be a bailiff before moving into, like, a traditional law enforcement role and being black in a ag county, he was like, okay, so all the black and brown people get fucked over. So here's what we're not gonna do. Get fucked over. And so, like, he fully was like, here's how you protect yourself. Here's what you need to do. And this is like, before I even had to get into court, like, child just came out of my body. And he's like, so you need to probably start protecting yourself.

[Chelsea Devantez]

W. First off, can you put together a little PDF and, like, drop it in the Patreon or something? I just feel like whatever he told you needs to be circulated.

[Julia Washington]

And I just feel like, because he knew he was like, that guy's garbage. You need to make sure you win in court. Because the court system really. If she hadn't had any of that documentation, because that was my fear. I was like, oh, my God, this little girl is gonna be stuck with this. Like, I hate that she's stuck to this gross, man. It's a grandparent in California, grandparents have rights. So I don't know about in Idaho, but it was just this moment of like, you have to save this baby.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. And if she hadn't been able to prove how dangerous he was, she wouldn't have been able to, like, retain custody and leave the state of Idaho and go back to California, which is the only place she can get a job in this ordeal. We find out that Kurt is. Kurt, the creepy guy, hydro coding guy, is a rapist to his own foster child daughter. And that Less has started many cults and ruined so many lives.

[Julia Washington]

So many women.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Just his latest. So many women's lives. And this is. We're now at the end of the book, and she is in Los Angeles and she's lost $340,000 to getting custody of her child. She's lost $2 million and more. More to just them. She thought she would just immediately go back to work. But this reputation as being in a cult, and now she's, you know, past 30, everyone's like, ew, no, we don't like. We don't like actresses who are not 21. And she's crying and screaming at God. And then she says, Then I thought about that moment in New York. The never doubt that I am real. Never doubt that I am real. Never doubt that I am real. Real. And she said, all of a sudden, it came through again. It flooded in. Did I make that up? Just another manufactured manifestation of the Holy Spirit in a moment of need. I seem to be capable of convincing myself of so many things. And then she goes through and says. Then the voice Came again. Not that it was audible or inside me or even coming from me, but rather like I was inside the voice and it was that same warm, loving presence it had been all those years. It go. I'd know it anywhere. I'd been chasing it for 10 years in all the wrong places then in italics. That's why I said it then. So you'd know I was real now when you needed me most.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah, here's the thing.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I said, actually, she needed you in the fucking cult, right? So if you are real, you have terrible fucking time.

[Natalie Katona]

Thank you.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Because I'm like, I cannot believe she is putting this in the book is right.

[Natalie Katona]

That's supposed to be comforting. Because could never be me. Could never be me.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I'm sorry you're here saying, like, by the way, I was questioning God because I followed God into a cult. Like, God was real. He just, like, wasn't there, like, during that, the. When my life was destroyed.

[Natalie Katona]

Because.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Because God is here now, though.

[Julia Washington]

And I'm like, because God needs to put you through a series of very intense challenges, like Job. So that way, you know and love and appreciate the glory of God and all of his gifts.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I. But you know, Julia, I'd be more down for that. God put me in a cult to test me, like Job, as the Bible said, God makes cults as test cults to really love God. Now we all love God. I'm like, you want to make me love God? Make it make sense. This is ridiculous. You're God wasn't there when you needed.

[Natalie Katona]

God for way weaker reasons. I, like, I walked away from Catholicism not because they did me dirty, but because they went. Wouldn't give an annulment to a woman who I knew who was in an abusive marriage. And I was like, well, then, fuck this. And I walked away.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, and that wasn't even your personal marriage.

[Natalie Katona]

Also, that woman wants a Catholic funeral. How am I supposed to feel about that?

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. Yeah, but that's kind of.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I mean, I. I was gonna say.

[Julia Washington]

That'S kind of like. Again, anybody who's listening, who is a Christian believer, I apologize in advance for the way I'm gonna say this. I'm coming from my own personal experience. That's kind of the delusion of Christianity, because it's very much like, well, I had to. The logic isn't there. The justification isn't truly there. So when you do that forensic analysis of what happened to you, you're like, okay, well, that's a lesson I learned. I'm as strong as Job. And then like anyone else who's not in it is like. Like you, Chelsea. Like you, Natalie. You're like, no, I need more.

[Natalie Katona]

Like, what?

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And listen, like. And, yeah, it's. I have friends who are Christian, and I really respect and love their faith, but you have to make it sense. You can't be like, by the way, God was there for me. It's like, I just read a book about it. So, like, you. You just need to write it in a way that makes more sense if you want me to go on this journey with you. And she does write in the acknowledgments that, like, thanks to the cult, she learned how to be vulnerable. She learned how to put others before herself. A big deal for an only child. Child. I learned how to serve. I learned how to have deep friendships. I'm like, no, you didn't. We do not have to be thankful run by a man who jacks off to Tony Soprano. We don't have to have gratitude for that.

[Natalie Katona]

No, we don't.

[Julia Washington]

No.

[Natalie Katona]

I'm against gratitude journal. What you say against gratitude journals. I turned against them.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I actually love that take.

[Natalie Katona]

Thank you.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Well, Natalie, that was the moment where I thought, oh, maybe this is her conservative values. And then this is the other moment. She ends the book saying, I thought of one of the last lines I delivered as Haley on One Tree Hill. It's a magical place. I've seen that magic in your eyes. There's only One Tree Hill, and it's your home. I wanted Rosie, her daughter, to be able to feel that kind of magic and peace. I had her. I had her. Nothing else mattered. I called my attorney back, and she basically tells them to drop the case. And. And I said, you're ending the book on a magical place. One Tree Hill, which is widely known as a really abusive, horrible show for you and your castmates. I'm just very confused.

[Natalie Katona]

And I think that's, like, it's what's fucked up about. Because Chelsea One Tree Hill lives in us all still today. If you're a Raven.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

Like, you can go to North Carolina every year and watch. Watch Nathan Scott play basketball in North Carolina. I send Julia clips all the time. And I'm like, I can't wait.

[Julia Washington]

We're planning a trip. Yeah, we're planning a trip.

[Natalie Katona]

Basketball game. I hate sports. Like, oh, wow.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Wait, is this for charity?

[Natalie Katona]

What is this? And they all come and, like, they do fan conventions. Like, they're very involved with the fan community, which is lovely. And, like, please call me fan community. My DM's wildly open, but I. So. And I think Sophia said it best on another podcast where she was like, the creator wasn't there enough for us to be so bogged down in how bad it was when he was there. Horrendous, abusive. Everything they've written in the tweets. But when he wasn't there, they were like, we were making great TV and people love it, and we changed lives, and I can't argue with that.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Listen, Natalie got me to watch the pilot for the first time.

[Julia Washington]

Oh, I love it.

[Natalie Katona]

You like it?

[Chelsea Devantez]

I get it. Yeah, I get it. Two half brothers is strange, but play basketball.

[Julia Washington]

Yes, Yes, I love it. Well, I loved seasons one through four. Five was a labor. Six. I did. I told Natalie. It's like, I can't. They are so awful to the women on the show that, like, if I hadn't watched this in 2003 and carried it with me, I probably would be okay with it. But now, as a grown woman watching it, I'm like, I'm an apologist for.

[Natalie Katona]

The growing grown up seasons, for the five till the end. I'm a huge apologist.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay. Well, she. I mean, and she very much thinks the fans she gets out of the cult, she goes to court. She never recoups the money. She does get her daughter. I think it's incredibly, the plane has landed.

[Natalie Katona]

So.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Well, she talks about cults. She talks about how people are going to say, like, well, which one? And if it doesn't have, like, a fancy name, like, you know, Nexium or all these things, people get, like, disappointed or they don't think that, like, a small group could be at a cult. And she says one thing that every cult has in common is that they deem outsiders unsafe. And so I wanted to say that on the podcast as, like, sounds like that is, like, a big takeaway of, like, if you were ever in any type of group, and they're like, well, outsiders are unsafe. It's a form of isolation. And the other thing I'll say is that I had no idea that she got out of this cult 12 years ago.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Because the book really does end after that. We have no idea what she's been up to since then. And in a way where I thought she got out of the cult a few years ago. Okay.

[Natalie Katona]

Right.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Because there's 12 years of her life that we didn't really.

[Julia Washington]

Right. I guess I just knew she was like, a Hallmark darling. So.

[Natalie Katona]

That's a lot of Hallmark.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, she does a lot. She does a lot of Hallmark okay.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, but I'm just saying it's like, oh, you've had 12 years of love life. I. But anyways, she landed the plane. I got to give a shout out to her editor who is profusely thanked in the book, making me realize that this is also the editor for Anna Marie Tendler's book and also the editor for Janette Principal. Oh, this man has a hair.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, he really does. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Right. And also all three books structured very well.

[Julia Washington]

Agreed.

[Chelsea Devantez]

So it's time for the booktool test. Are you ready? Yes. First question. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?

[Julia Washington]

I think she was. I think there's still a lot she's holding back, especially in watching the press tour for this book. There's been a lot of interviews that I've watched with her where she still sort of is struggling to talk about the things when she's presented with questions. And I don't know if that's because she's trying to like navigate people to read the book because she does share so much about it. But at the same time I feel like she's as vulnerable as she can be because she still is in relationship with God and, and faith that she. There's like that detangling is still happening and probably will because that's what I learned reading this book was that I'm still entangled with some religious shit that I thought I had done a lot of therapy for.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah, I think for, you know, you have to juggle changing everyone's names. You have to do the who. Like, well, this is what I experienced in the cult, but I don't get to tell other people's experiences in the cult or truly other people's experiences on the One Tree Hill set. I mean, I feel like I got to know her and inside of her head and she was really honest about the imposter syndrome and the self sabotage and the self hating thoughts that would run through her head. And yeah, it's a, it's a book that you're like, yes, this is what gaslighting looks like and this is what grooming Looks like.

[Julia Washington]

100%. 100%.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. And I'm new to this, so I didn't know what I was missing until I started researching and I give her a full yes. Okay. Second question was entertaining to read.

[Julia Washington]

100%. There were moments I can't. First of all, I can't tell you how many times I wrote down less gross. Ew, Barf hate this man. Barf, qb barf, hate, hate. But it Kept me going because I'm like, this bitch is going to win. I know she's going to win. Like, we're going to win.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Natalie.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah, it was entertaining because I think Bethany, even though after One Tree Hill ended, I, like, kept up with her musically because I love the sound of her voice. I really didn't know as much about her as I do Hillary and Sophia. So it was just really great to get her side of things and bring that context into why she was left out of the Tree Hill trio.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, yeah, I see that. Okay. And I loved it. Couldn't put it down. I love a dark memoir. I love. I love. I love just like. Oh, God, I love that. Okay, last question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

[Julia Washington]

So I feel like I kind of already answered that because I realized that I still have. I was telling my friend on the drive back, Drive on a drive the other day, I said, I. I thought I had chopped down the tree, and I thought I had done the stump remover. I didn't realize there were still some lingering roots until reading this book. And now that actually makes the entirety of 2024 make way more sense now. Because there have been a lot of things personally that have been happening where I'm just like, what the fuck is happening? And so to have that piece kind of all come together and reading this book is like, oh, thank God. Now I have bullet points. I can call my therapist and restart.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay. This is huge. That's really huge, Julia. And I'm thankful that happened. Okay, now, Natalie, there were two things.

[Natalie Katona]

The first thing was the financial literacy thing. I am famous for saying money you not real numbers don't want to look at them. But then you realize, like, Natalie, if you get an occult. That's not cute. Like, it's not cute to not know what's in your bank account. So, like, when she was like, I never looked at any of my money because statements confused me, I was like, yes, queen. It's all made up numbers in your phone. Like, capitalism kills and it's not cute.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. And it's like, if Gretchen can look at numbers.

[Natalie Katona]

Yeah, right, exactly. So everyone check your bank accounts tonight. Or if it's gonna bum you out, don't. I'm okay with that, too. And the second thing is that list that she lists right before she screams a big fuck you to the big guy in the sky.

[Julia Washington]

Yes.

[Natalie Katona]

I'm gonna use that when I define the millennial resentment. Because her God resentment is my millennial resentment. Where it's like, I went to school. I'm a sm, I'm talented. I recently yelled at my father. Sometimes you work really hard and you look around and your life is still a disaster. So what then?

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. Yes. Okay. And you were talking about this. We are coining it. You're hearing it on this podcast, but it is Natalie's. It is called Millennial Resentment. Tm, cp Whatever.

[Natalie Katona]

It's going to be on my Tik Tok soon.

[Julia Washington]

Yes.

[Natalie Katona]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, good. Which is that, like, yeah, they said, go to college. They said, you know, don't have lattes, save money. They said all these things that set us up for literally nothing, for garbage. That's really well said. Okay. And I'm. I'm also a yes in that I know I was joking about, like, me falling into a cult, this whole podcast, but I recognized a lot of situations in her life as ones that I could have been in. And I think those moments when I felt weakest are when I was valuing someone else's opinion over my own. And like. Like, even with this show, you know, I feel like feedback is really important, and I feel like criticism, even the worst of it. There's usually a good note in there somewhere if you can get to it. However, also, sometimes you don't always need feedback. Sometimes you can trust yourself. And I'm like, you know what? I don't want to accidentally definitely let some weird less in with their opinions and, like, just, you know, trust myself. Like, maybe take in less feedback and you don't end up in a cult with less. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Natalie Katona]

My life has been one big journey of. You can't always take everyone at their word. Sometimes their words are bad and are meant to hurt you.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's consider the source, right? Always consider the source. Source.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Always consider the source. And I'll just throw this one in. This is. This is mine. Tm. Cp. Never take life advice from someone's life you don't want. Oh, amen. Now, before I let you both go, I just want to say there is a bonus episode, dropping of a bunch of details that we cut from this episode. A little conversation, a bunch of other research we found. If you are hardcore into this story, if you want to know more about the book, more about Bethany, more about the this cult. Subscribe on Apple. It's $5 a month. You get tons of bonus content. Or go to Patreon subscribe. Do it on your desktop, because Apple takes a big cut. So go to Patreon subscribe, you will not only get the episode, but you'll get our entire back catalog of episodes when you become a subscriber. Also on Patreon, I send out the photos, I send out a bunch of like newsletter stuff. You get a bunch of extra content and you get access to the chat where you get to talk to the other cookies about all this. All this like glamorous trash shit that we're talking about all the time. Okay. Tell everyone where they can find you, follow you and support your work. You have podcasts, Julia has the best smelling candle of my life. Like, when can you collab and like send out candles with me? Let me know. Please plug all your stuff.

[Natalie Katona]

You have to go first now because you have the best smelling candle.

[Julia Washington]

Okay. You can find me on Instagram, the Julia Washington. And that is where I live a lot of my life. My book club is Jelly Pops Book Club. Like Chelsea said in the top, we read book to screen adaptations and we also make a candle for each book that we read. The candle that she referenced is called Beale Street. So I also own a pop up shop and everything in that shop is literary themed. The cards, the candles, whatever else my tired hands can make. And so you can like follow pros and glow on Instagram to see all the that I make and support my future carpal tunnel because I'm not married and I have to take care of myself.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I'm putting you in my Christmas.

[Julia Washington]

Oh, I love it.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Like if you are a book lover, like you need to be buying these candles and I need you to make me some Christmas themed candles. Okay, Natalie.

[Natalie Katona]

Hi, I'm Natalie Katona. I'm the host of the show. To all the men I've tolerated before your weekly look at everyday misogyny. It's fun, I promise. Sometimes we talk about Taylor Swift in the Barbie movie. You can find me at men I've tolerated pod on Instagram. You can find me at Natalie K124 on Tik Tok and Instagram. My DMS are currently open to all things one, Trip Hill and Love is Blind. Because those men are going to send me to the grave.

[Julia Washington]

Amen. Amen.

[Chelsea Devantez]

So well said. And you can find all three of us on our monthly Patreon Zoom Book club. A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code TRASH. That's right, trash T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of 1 at Libro FM. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.