Brandy's Memoir Phases (with Julia Washington)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast

Episode: Brandy Norwood’s Memoir Phases (with Julia Washington)
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Julia Washington
Date: April 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Glamorous Trash" dives deep into Grammy-winning R&B singer, actress, and 90s icon Brandy Norwood’s memoir, Phases. Chelsea Devantez is joined by writer and book club friend Julia Washington. They discuss Brandy’s rise from childhood stardom, her iconic sitcom Moesha, industry challenges, her relationship with Whitney Houston, vulnerable recountings of predatory relationships, motherhood, media scandals, and the pain and nostalgia laced throughout her life’s "phases." The episode examines both the power and restraint of Brandy’s storytelling, her cultural impact, and what’s left unsaid in her memoir.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Expectations and First Impressions

• Both Chelsea and Julia anticipated learning new, untold aspects of Brandy’s life, with Julia driven by “nostalgia that I’ve been missing.” (05:33)
• The memoir was found to be both revealing and reserved. Brandy’s vulnerability is matched with a strong tone of caution or sadness.
• “This book gave a lot. And also, I felt her restraint.” (Chelsea, 06:12)

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2. The Tone–Vulnerability vs. Restraint

• Brandy’s preface sets the emotional context:

  "Still, even now, I’m afraid that I will disappoint people by sharing my story... I thought about just carrying all these stories locked inside..." (Chelsea reading Brandy, 07:10)

• Julia highlights that the memoir feels like Brandy is on the outside of her own life, reporting rather than reliving.

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3. Early Life: Church, Fame, and Bullying

• Brandy’s Mississippi roots, singing in church, and hair braiding’s cultural impact are detailed.
• The violence and bullying in her early years, especially after moving to Carson, California, are stark—Brandy was “viciously bullied,” leading to a memorable story of using a braided extension cord as a whip to defend herself.

  “Extension cords braided together into a heavy, flexible whip...” (Chelsea, 10:44)

• Discussion of disconnect between Brandy’s depiction of her parents as near-perfect and her secrecy during times of hardship.

  “How bad was the bullying?...there’s a piece missing...” (Julia, 18:13)

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4. Fame: Support, Talent Circuits, and Industry Access

• Early on, Brandy is singularly focused on stardom, idolizes Whitney Houston—her “compass.”
• Explores her tenacity getting backstage to see Whitney (to no avail at age 10), and ongoing hustle for opportunities.
• Critical nostalgia for the 90s “talent show circuit” that fostered rising stars like Brandy, Immature, and others.

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5. Industry Dangers & Parental Protection

• Unsafe environments: recounting being sexually harassed by a member of Immature and the implication of problematic management (Chris Stokes, later accused by others).
• Questioning the true presence and role of Brandy’s parents, given these circumstances (Chelsea and Julia, 25:10).

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6. Acting: The Influence of Great Teachers

• Mr. Bialik (Mayim Bialik’s father) is credited as Brandy’s pivotal drama teacher.
• Mayim Bialik’s “Blossom” and Beaches fame is discussed in context, and how exposure to real industry talent shaped Brandy’s journey.

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7. The Launch: TV, Music Deals, and ‘Moesha’

• Brandy’s brief but negative experience on her first sitcom Thea is described ("TV mom, Thea Vidal, hated her"—Chelsea, 29:02)
• At age 14, Brandy lands her first solo record deal with Atlantic. The podcast notes her shocking, fleeting studio experience with a young Robin Thicke.

  “Robin was just 17 then, as green as I was and years away from becoming Robin Thicke.” (31:42)

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8. The Wanya Morris (Boyz II Men) Relationship: Grooming, Power, and Shame

• The memoir’s rawest chapters revolve around Brandy’s relationship with Boyz II Men’s Wanya Morris, a power-imbalanced and secret affair when she was 16 and he was 22.
• Brandy’s reflection on being “groomed,” carrying shame for decades:

  “He weaponized my admiration, shaped my friendship into dependence, my respect into desire.” (Brandy, 35:54) “I was a child, he was an adult, and it’s time the world understood the difference.” (Brandy, 43:52)

• Julia highlights the oversexualization of Black girls and the silent burdens placed on them in society.
• Chelsea praises these chapters for their vulnerability and potential impact on readers.

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9. Moesha: Representation, Sisterhood, and Mixed Feelings

• Moesha’s significance as a Black, female-led sitcom is discussed.
• Brandy is candid about her initial struggles in the role and how actress Kim Fields helped her succeed.
• She’s critical of the show’s body- and slut-shaming but still sees its “true magic” in on-screen sisterhood:

  “The true magic of the series, in my opinion, was the sisterhood between Moesha, Kim and Nisi. And I worried that sometimes we undermine that magic with cheap jokes.” (Chelsea, quoting Brandy, 48:17)

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10. Ray J & Family Dynamics: What’s Unsaid

• Brandy’s brother Ray J is present but his controversial life (including the infamous sex tape with Kim Kardashian) is never addressed directly.
• The hosts debate memoir ethics:

  “She wrote a lot about Rey. And also absolutely nothing.” (Chelsea, 50:05)

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11. Cinderella: Cultural Barriers & Breakthroughs

• Brandy’s casting as the first Black Cinderella opposite her idol Whitney Houston is hailed as revolutionary.
• Resistance from network executives (who wanted a white Cinderella/Black fairy godmother) is documented.
• Julia and Chelsea emphasize the power and rarity of the production’s final casting (55:40).

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12. Feuds, Friendship, and the Monica ‘The Boy Is Mine’ Saga

• A highlight chapter covers Brandy’s real and manufactured “rivalry” with Monica. Media stoked competitive fire, though their only real clash happened years into their friendship.
• "Neither of us truly wielded that much power...we were teenagers in a world where men twice our age made decisions about our careers, our images, our narratives.” (Brandy, 60:30)
• The podcast reflects on their later attempts to reclaim their stories and navigate the industry’s manipulation of young women.

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13. Motherhood, Scandal, and "Good Girl" Image

• Brandy’s secret pregnancy and the decision to fabricate a marriage to preserve her “good girl” image is analyzed.
• Her ex’s betrayal—revealing the truth on Wendy Williams—cost Brandy professionally and personally.
• Julia relates to the shame, secrecy, and public/familial scrutiny of young Black motherhood.

  “I felt like having a child out of wedlock would ruin… everything that I built.” (Brandy, quoted by Chelsea, 79:04)

• Brandy questions if honesty would have healed or simply expedited the backlash.

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14. Tragedy: The 2006 Car Accident

• Brandy addresses the fatal auto accident with deep sorrow; the podcast notes divergence between her account (she joined an ongoing collision) and media reports (claiming she caused it).
• The grief and the impact of brutal media coverage are highlighted.

  “I began to listen to the Internet, and I began to believe I was the awful, reckless monster that the Internet… believed me to be. And she said, the grief has never left me.” (Chelsea, 85:07)

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15. Later Chapters: Protecting Her Daughter and Quiet Epilogue

• Brandy’s deliberate choice to shield her daughter Sarai from her fame for years is seen as protective and caring.
• The memoir closes with Brandy playing Roxie Hart on Broadway, described as a resurgence.

  “Roxy brought me back to life.” (Chelsea, 88:04)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I was a child, he was an adult, and it’s time the world understood the difference.” (Brandy on Wanya, read by Julia, 43:52)
• “Being taken advantage of as an immature teenager and then having it thrown in your face for the next 30 years is a kind of cruelty only reserved for women.” (Brandy, 43:24)
• “Do not memoir unless you will memoir!” (Chelsea, 90:58)
• “There’s a level of, like, she’s removed from the stories about herself that she’s telling.” (Julia, 74:04)
• “She gave a lot. And also, I felt her restraint.” (Chelsea, 06:12)
• Diana Ross’s advice to young Brandy: “No chewing gum while talking. Sit up straight. Keep your knees together, because the cameras are always watching, even when you think they aren’t.” (Chelsea, 63:52)
  Chelsea's response: “Worst advice ever.” (63:52)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Brandy’s Preface / Memoir's Tone: 06:39–08:28
• Bullying & Childhood Violence: 10:44–17:11
• Immature Incident (Sexual Harassment): 24:14–25:10
• Mayim Bialik’s Dad as Drama Teacher: 25:54–27:30
• First Record Deal, Robin Thicke Cameo: 31:42
• The Wanya Morris Relationship & Grooming: 35:25–44:37
• Moesha, Black Teen Representation: 46:35–48:19
• ‘The Boy Is Mine’ Rivalry With Monica: 58:05–62:54
• Motherhood, Good Girl Image & Public Backlash: 74:42–81:48
• The Car Accident & Media Aftermath: 84:42–86:20
• Protecting Her Daughter & Memoir Ending: 88:35–90:19
• Podcast Booktool Test / Overall Reflections: 90:19–92:50

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Structure, Language & Tone

The podcast conversation flows as a candid, book club-style exchange—sometimes playful, always thoughtful, and bracingly honest. Chelsea and Julia ground their critique in lived experience, 90s pop culture nostalgia, and direct engagement with Brandy’s own words—balancing empathy for Brandy’s trauma with pointed observations on what remains unsaid.

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Episode Takeaway

• Phases is a nostalgic, evocative memoir, remarkable for its honest accounts of race, gender, and growing up famous. It’s at its most powerful—and essential—when Brandy faces the dark truths of power abuse and shame, but is notably restrained elsewhere, particularly on family and tabloid scandals.
• The episode stands as both a celebration of Brandy’s achievements and a reflection on the limitations—and costs—of memoiric restraint.

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For Further Engagement

• Phases by Brandy Norwood is available everywhere.
• Glamorous Trash book-themed candles and other merch are available at Julia Washington’s Pros and Glow.
• Find show notes, transcripts, and more on the podcast Patreon and socials.

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Listen for:

• Deep dive into Black girlhood and 90s R&B stardom
• Sobering industry truths and the trauma of being a “good girl” under surveillance
• Honest, cathartic dialogue on power, agency, and the gaps within celebrity memoirs

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For those seeking healing, nostalgia, or the unvarnished complexities of stardom—this episode delivers.

Transcript

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[Chelsea Devontes]

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[Julia Washington]

If you sign up today, you'll get our May candle. And we are doing Margo Got money trouble. Amazing.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I watched the first episode. Loved it.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. I'm so excited. Like, I'm waiting to watch the show, but, I mean, I consume the books before I make the candle. Cause we try to. We. It's just me, Chelsea, Unless you want to count my dog pouting that I'm not sitting on the couch with her, then it is.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Okay.

[Julia Washington]

Okay. But I try to capture the essence of the book through the scent. And so, like, I've got to consume the book before I make the candle.

[Chelsea Devontes]

What scent? Scents are coming up for you. For Margo's got money troubles.

[Julia Washington]

It's actually very fruity.

[Chelsea Devontes]

That feels right because it's sparkly. It's fun. Yeah. Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

I was like, I don't want to do anything that's too inspired by Love Spell because, like, that felt like I would go too far.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

But I needed to, like, capture that, like, vibe of, like. Well, we've just walked into Victoria's Secret. Yes.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yes. Oh, I can't. Oh, God. What Victoria's Secret spray did I just use for years? I could I visually, if I saw It. I'd be like, that's my. I love your scents because they're always strong in the way of, like, I hate where you light a candle and you have no idea. You did. Like, I want a scent to hit the room, but they're also really elevated and chic, and nothing's, like, overpowering or, like, sugary. So I can't wait for this.

[Julia Washington]

Thank you.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Can't wait. Okay. Julia, I reached out to you because something in me said, julia is the Brandy guest. Now, was this correct? What were your overall feelings on the Brandy memoir?

[Julia Washington]

I had very high hopes for the Brandy memoir. I wanted to learn things that I didn't already know, and I was very excited. Thank you for that. Because, like, the book in general just sort of gave me, like, this nostalgia that I've been missing.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

Which is great. Did hit a little bit of a plateau around page 200, where I was like, okay, yeah, I need you to give me more. Yes, yes, I get it. Whitney's fairy godmother. Got it.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

You have lots of relationships that kind of didn't end great. Got it. You're trying to reclaim yourself. Got it. I need more Brandy.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. This book gave a lot. And also, I felt her restraint.

[Julia Washington]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yes. It was either restraint or sadness. I wasn't sure if she, like, didn't want to delve a ton into things because it was pain or if there was, like, protective restraint, which is wild, because you're gonna hear y'. All. She shared a lot. But there was something in the tone that was a little reserved.

[Julia Washington]

Yes. And, like, my most marked up chapters were the chapters where she talked about her relationship and then the chapter where she talked about her pregnancy. Like, those are my most marked up ones. At the same time, there was stuff where it was, like, to your point of, like, Moesha ended on a cliffhanger. What happened?

[Chelsea Devontes]

She doesn't really seem to have been a fan of Moesha. Okay, okay, let's dive. Dive in. I want to read a page from the preface, and this actually, now that I just opened this page because I marked it, given what we just said about tone, I actually think this explains it, and this is the answer. And she told us in the beginning. Still, even now, I'm afraid that I will disappoint people by sharing my story. I'm certain that details here will differ from how others might have told it. Because of that, some names and identifying details have been changed or omitted to respect their privacy. And some scenes and conversations recalled here are done in the spirit in which they were remembered, have been reordered and or combined for narrative purposes. The limits of my memory made me reconsider writing this book. I thought about just carrying all these stories locked inside. I'd gotten used to carrying them around, and they could vanish with my last breath and remain unknown. I'm afraid of what people might think, but my hope is that in surrendering my truth, that young girl who dreamed under the moon can feel understood and finally find release. Yeah. Is that theme of the podcast, which is that carrying this will set me and hopefully others free, but by sharing what she's been carrying. And so she wants to share, but it's very scary for her. And Brandi, I would say, went away for a while, especially compared to how prevalent she was in pop culture for some time. So I think dipping a toe back into the water of people writing headlines and gossiping about you must be pretty scary. Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. It felt very much like she's on the outside of her story, telling her story. To me, she's got these big emotions, and that comes out when she's talking about her relationships and not just specifically the Boyz I Men relationship, but all of them. But then at the same time, there's moments when you're just like, again, again, I get it. Whitney Houston is a fairy godmother. I got it. I need more. Because then when she tells us that Whitney has passed and just how devastating that is for her, if I didn't know Brandi and know their relationship and had seen this Cinderella and just watched, I went back and rewatched the 1997 Grammys just to refresh my memory. If all of that hadn't been in my memory, I think there would have been a disconnect for me between how impassioned she was about Whitney. And she did a lot of work to meet her prior to them connecting for Cinderella.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I have a note that I wrote and I said, not enough Whitney. And worst picture section ever. Worst.

[Julia Washington]

I literally thought of you. I immediately flipped to the picture section. I was like, oh, Chelsea's not gonna like this girl.

[Chelsea Devontes]

The amount of iconic, incredible images in Brandi's life, and, I mean, there's only two a page, barely. There might be like seven images total. And the ones she chose are really surprising to me. I think there's a lot of pain in Brandy's life, and I think, looking back, doesn't always bring pride. Also, with Whitney, I didn't re watch the Grammys, so I was sort of wondering if she was writing around some of Whitney's Drug use and the realities of their friendship. But, okay, so diving in from the beginning at first, Brandy grows up in Mississippi and learns to. To sing in church and loves sort of the tradition of having her hair braided and what that means in black culture and with her family and with women. And it was this sweet moment of, like, I didn't realize how iconic my hair would be for girls in the 90s. Showing her braids and that becoming a signature part of her look. I thought that was so beautiful. And then they move to Carson, California, and the chapter starts, and it says, every kid in Carson hated Brandy, Norwood, and Julia. This is where I thought the book was gonna be.

[Julia Washington]

Perh.

[Chelsea Devontes]

The best memoir I've ever read. She told this story that I was screaming about. So basically, Brandi is viciously bullied. I mean, there's intense violence from when she's 8 years old walking to school, and kids hate her and pick on her. And she goes through a lot. And then finally, in fifth grade, she meets her one true friend but is still getting picked on. And this girl latoya, humiliates her in front of the drill team, where she was, like, a part of that whole squad, and, like, just shoves her and shoves her and belittles her and humiliates her. And then Julia, did you see this coming? I'm gonna read what happens, she said. Most of the kids in my neighborhood had latchkey parents working to keep food on the table and the lights on. I knew latoya would be home alone during a specific window each afternoon. Just like me. Just like most of us. First, I gathered every extension cord I could find around our house from behind the tv. The garage from my parents bedroom hid them under my bed. And then she said, finally, the day came. The block was quiet. Most kids were still at after school programs or at friends houses. From my lookout spot, I saw latoya return home, the front door closing behind her. I retrieved my makeshift weapon. Extension cords braided together into a heavy, flexible whip. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now, and we'll be right back. I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear day to day, picking pieces that last forever so I can be more sustainable and honestly, make getting dressed simpler. And Quince has really done up my wardrobe. We were just rewatching the movie Something's gotta Give, where Diane Keaton is in all these, like, really expensive cashmere sweaters. And I thought to myself, I know where I can get those on a discount Quince baby. Their lightweight Linen pants, dresses and tops start at $30 and they are effortless, breathable and easy to wear on repeat. Everything at quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cutouts, the middlemen. So you're paying for quality and craftsmanship, not brand markup. Recently I went beyond Quint's pants and shirts and dresses and I got myself a pair of shoes. And they're so cute. I never thought I was the type of girl who could pull off like an oxford shoe. And yet I've become so business chic. I love them so much. I love that I can get a great pair of shoes the same place I am getting a great pair of pants. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com glamorous for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com glamorous for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com glamorous so I tried a new mascara. You know, it came in hot. It was like it does this and this and this. And guess what? It absolutely did not come close in any way to the Thrive Cosmetics mascara. It's just the best. It's my favorite mascara, but wow, I was just reminded it's the vegan tubing mascara. It makes your lashes so long and it is smudge free. I pair it together with my brilliant eye brightener, which I now have five of them. They're my favorite little eyeshadow sticks. And so I will use whatever color I'm feeling per mood. And it looks like you have stunning eye makeup on. I love Thrive cosmetics because they support good causes in the world. Hence the name Cosmetics. C A U S E cosmetics. With over 150 million in product and cash donations to 600 plus giving partners, your purchase directly fuels real impact. And so it is beauty with a purpose. Amplify your spring look with Thrive cosmetics. Go to thrivecosmetics.com glamorous for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S E M E t I c s.com glamorous okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. And I marched across the street my heart pounding so hard I could feel it in my fingertips Knock, knock, knock like the fool she was Latoya broke the one cardinal roll Drilled into every latchkey kid she answered the door Our eyes met for a split Second. Hers widened in surprise. Mine narrowed with purpose. Before she could speak, I swung.

[Julia Washington]

My thought was, okay, somebody told you this is a thing, you know, you can, like. You know to do that. How to braid. You don't sit around at, like, what, she's like, 10 at this. She's sitting, like, fifth grade. So, like, 10 or 11. I don't know. I wouldn't have thought, like, you know, what would be an interesting thing to try out? Braiding extension cords and then hurting something

[Chelsea Devontes]

with a flexible whip. I was trying to think, like, what iconic 80s, 90s movie could she have gotten this from? I couldn't think of one. If you know the answer, put it in the Patreon comments. Who did she get this from? Who did she get this from?

[Julia Washington]

And somebody had to have, like. Or overheard, I don't know, something.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Okay? I can hear everyone being, like, horrified at this story, and I just want to validate that she did hit this girl with her whip, and then no one ever bullied her again. From what I know from the story, the girl goes to school, and it's just. Just was like, okay, I'm healed, and I will not pick on Brandi again. The one thing I want to say is that a portion of my life, we moved to this small town, and it was fight culture. And it was the exact same thing she's describing of, like, you are gonna undergo daily violence, and the only way to get out of it will be to participate and show them you're not to be messed with or to move away. And there was a part of me that was like, this is like, the nerdy, sweet, bullied girl who, like, I understand how years of enduring violence could lead a kid to be like, I must tell the school to stop hurting me. And this is the way I do it. Though, obviously, there were a million other solutions, but she clearly didn't feel like those were an option or didn't know about them. And her mom is such a big part of her life. Later in the book, I'm like, where. I know she said she didn't tell her parents, but they seemed like such caring parents in the book.

[Julia Washington]

That was such a disconnect for me because on the. She does talk a lot about, like, you know, especially when her mom becomes her manager, where she's like, we have this line where, my mom is more my manager than my mom. I just want my mom sometimes. But then also, when you're a child, you love your parents so much. She speaks so beautifully about her father and how much he impact her and her music career and what she is capable to do with her instrument. But yet there's something missing. Yeah. About like your comfort level. It's like especially Chelsea, with the ritual of sitting between someone's legs and having them braid your hair for hours. Like the amount of connecting that happens in that process, you know, like I, I'm a 42 year old woman and I'm like, I wish I could go back and sit between my auntie's legs and just have her braid my hair. Like that would heal me today. So. So for me, that was a disconnect of like, I. What. How bad was the bullying? What was going on mentally for you that you couldn't say something to your mom?

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

Like there's a piece missing that just feels like there's things.

[Chelsea Devontes]

There's things missing. I'm so glad you're saying that because. And we'll get to it later in the book, but there's other parts where she talks about her parents. And I kept thinking, given what I know about Ray J and you in other areas of your life and other stories, this either can't be true or you're leaving out a really important fact about your parents. Right. Because parents are fallible and in this book, hers are not. And so, so many crazy things happen with these kids that I, It's. It just feels hard to be like, how were they perfect? And I'm not saying they should have been perfect, but she, she was saying.

[Julia Washington]

Right? Yeah, she was saying they were.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, at 10 years old, she's like, I only had one wish and it was to get a record contract and be a very famous pop star. And she starts to be in the talent circuit and she sings Whitney's the Greatest Love of All. Now, Julia, have you ever done a Whitney song at karaoke? If so, what was it?

[Julia Washington]

No, because I know better. However, with that said, I will. If I need to get my day started and I need to just get myself pumped. I'm turning on I want to dance with somebody.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Oh, yeah.

[Julia Washington]

And I'm singing like I have vocals.

[Chelsea Devontes]

That's probably the most cathartic therapy available. 100. I had a like eat edibles phase in my 20s, and each time I would put on Whitney Houston songs with nature backgrounds. And I am devastated to say that your girl has attempted saving all my love upwards of a dozen times at karaoke. And I've got this like, very silly princess soprano voice that's just like, not. Just not. It's just not. It's a no. And Everyone had to hear it. Now Brandi can sing. She is 10 years old singing this absolute Whitney banger. And through the talent show circuit, she meets Whitney's music director, Ricky Minor, who gets them seats to a Whitney concert. And they're in the nosebleeds. And Brandi at 10 or 11 is like, I'm gonna get down there. I'm gonna meet her. If I just make eye contact with Ricky, who sat them in back, and she hustles her way down there with her mom in tow to meet Whitney. And Whitney can't meet her that night. And she's just like, sobbing and crying. There'll be multiple more times in life where she hustles her way to the front of the stage to try and meet Whitney Houston, who is her idol. And her mom kept saying, the cream will rise to the top. You'll meet her when you're ready. Which makes it very beautiful because she's gonna be her fairy godmother in Cinderella. But it was so wild to read these stories of a 10 year old making it through a stadium, convincing security guards to get them to each new level. And then she's like. And then I got Cinderella and Whitney was my godmother. And then there's like, no set stories. Yeah, there's no stories after that.

[Julia Washington]

Nothing. And two, like, I understand that this song that she chooses to sing is her song over and over and over again. And she is emotionally connected to that song. We all have that. We just proved that we all have that.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Saving all my love, you guys, it's my song.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. I just. I just felt like. And maybe you nailed it on the head with the. She's protecting Whitney in some way or their relationship in some way, because again, something's missing.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

I loved the story she told about how she approached and was like, hey, I love Whitney. Can you call her? Like, that is gumption. That is like a brave, bold child. And yet somehow that bravery, that boldness diminishes over time. And it really feels like she doesn't know who she is. It's almost like Whitney's the compass that, you know, she's like, that's what I want. That's what I want to be. And her parents are reminding her, like, be Brandi, be Brandi. But her eye is like, be Whitney, be Whitney.

[Chelsea Devontes]

But the good.

[Julia Washington]

The good version of Whitney.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Right?

[Julia Washington]

Like, because that's another repeated theme where she's like, I'm a good girl. I have this good girl reputation. There are things that I'm not allowed to do. Because I'm a good girl.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, I think I'm projecting this now from what you said. But the idea of like meeting your heroes and realizing the pain they're going through from fame, which is the thing she was pursuing at the time, must have really changed her in a way she didn't write down.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, well, yeah, through the talent show

[Chelsea Devontes]

circuit, which, like, I'm nostalgic for a time I was never a part of. And one of the cookies gave me the word for this and I absolutely forgot it. But I'm as nostalgic for a time I never lived through, which is this 90s kid talent show circuit where kids were just like. It was like these shows, these live shows people would go to and there'd be 10 acts that night and there'd be a winner or a loser, and you'd get to know the industry and people trying to come up. And there she meets the guy who was managing a little group group called Immature. Anybody remember that? Were you an Immature fan?

[Julia Washington]

My sister was, yeah. So I do want to mention Brandi and my sister are like almost the exact same age. A lot of the stuff she was talking about, I was observing through my sister because that was my sister. That's not necessarily like singer girl, but like when she was talking about Immature, when she was talking about like all these different things. Like, I got into Moesha because my sister was watching Moesha.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yes, yes. That makes so much sense. And Immature is on the talent circuit. And this is their intro. And I gotta tell you, if I saw 10 year old boys walk out and do this, I'd be like, they're stars. One would come out and say, my name is Romeo and I'm from the moon. The first boy announced with a sly smile, his voice carrying to the back row without effort. My name is Half Pint and I'm from Pluto. The smallest of the trio followed, bouncing on his toes. I'm Batman and I'm from the stars. The third boy concluded, spreading his arms wide as if embracing the entire audience. And we're Immature,

[Julia Washington]

okay?

[Chelsea Devontes]

And their manager, Chris Stokes, is like, I would like to manage you, Brandi. But he kind of sits on her career for a while and has her be a part of a girl group. And she gets her solo act from performing as a girl group. And the record label guys standing there saying, forget them. You step forward, it's you.

[Julia Washington]

You're only. You're the star.

[Chelsea Devontes]

You're the star. But Chris, this really didn't lead her there. So she ends up leaving him and she gets her solo career. But before that happens, she said Half Pint one night physically assaulted her when she was in the living room, like, put his hand up her shirt and began feeling her up. And she was reading a book, like, they were all just hanging out there, as they did. And she picked up the book and threw it at him, and it went flying across the room, and it hit Jerome's eye, who is Romeo, and it detached his retina, and they, like, rush him to the hospital, and later he wears an eye patch and, like, makes it part of his thing. And that came from Brandi defending herself from this assault. And it should be noted that Chris Stokes also has allegations against him from other groups. So it was just a very unsafe environment, even though she said her dad and her mom were around all the time.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know about you, Chelsea, but I kept thinking, where is your mother? Like, I kept checking myself when I was saying that too, because it's like, where's your mother? At the same time, it's like, I don't know what it's like to manage a child in the industry. Like, what access in the 90s.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And her mom wasn't managing her yet. Her mom, I think, Right. She works at, like, a. As like a tax accountant at HR or something.

[Julia Washington]

But again, back to the brandy of it all being like, her parents are sort of on this pedestal, and they're these really wonderful anchors for her throughout her story, per her version, per her vision. And. And yet she's constantly in these situations where you're just like. But I. I'm not asking this in a judgmental way. Just curious. Where's your mom?

[Chelsea Devontes]

And I, where's your mom? It's a question to ask. Where's your dad? Like, where are they? Okay, so from here, she starts writing about a drama teacher who changed her life, who was the teacher who made her realize maybe she does want to act. And when she said his name in the book, I was like, Mr. Bialik. I was, huh, that's funny. Sounds like Mayim Bialik. And then she's like, you know, mayim B. Alec's dad, my acting teacher in school? I said, what? And Mayim's like, in Blossom, and one day comes to do, like, a Q and A with the class and is like, here's how you, like, become an actor. And I got to tell you, have you ever seen Beaches?

[Julia Washington]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Mayim is the most talented child alive when she is playing a young Bette Midler. So my jaw is still on the floor from that performance, now realizing, like, yeah, she had, like, a theater school dad.

[Julia Washington]

Like, he makes sense.

[Chelsea Devontes]

It makes sense. And he's teaching Brandy how to act, and she realizes, maybe I'll do auditions. Did that part blow your mind?

[Julia Washington]

I'm like.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And I. It's not said in the book, but I'm like, is this man just, like, randomly in Carson? Are we in LA now? Like, where are we?

[Julia Washington]

Okay, So I felt like I was like, oh, I know exactly who she's talking about, even though she hadn't dropped the bomb yet. But I also felt like she did that a lot where she was like, here's the setup of who's I'm talking about or gives you the explanation. And she brings him up again later. He was so impactful to her. Just long term. Yeah. Which is crazy to me, because could you. I know you asked me a different question, but could you imagine sitting in your classroom one day and, like, Blossom walks in and it's just like, hey, guys.

[Chelsea Devontes]

It would have changed my life. It would have changed my entire life. And I think one great teacher who sees who you are and validates it. I think if you're lucky, everyone has that one teacher who just changed your entire world by seeing you. And it feels like he's.

[Julia Washington]

That for her, she does have a lot of access to people who are really close in the industry that I don't think I realized right away. And just her boldness to get through all of that, too, was. Was really interesting to read, but it's always nice to find out that there isn't a garbage man on the planet,

[Chelsea Devontes]

you know, it is nice, but I gotta tell you, one other theme in the book is Randy writing about garbage men and not including their garbage context.

[Julia Washington]

Right. So I really.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Listen, I hope.

[Julia Washington]

I'm sure Mr. Bialik is fine.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Fingers crossed. But, like, I don't trust her to tell me in the book if they're not. Well, at this point, her mom is like, hey, you're really serious about this? I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to manage you and Ray J. And her mom starts studying the same way she studied on how to, you know, learn taxes and all this crazy stuff. She's like, I'm just gonna study being a manager so that I can help my children achieve their dreams. And this leads to her getting her first TV show. It was on for a year, and it was supposed to be the Black RoseAnne. And her TV mom, Thea Vidal, hated her and was like, can't you learn your lines? And it was. It was just like a horrible experience. And when the show ends, she. She's, like, thrilled about it. Did you ever watch that show?

[Julia Washington]

I didn't watch Thea. I actually looked to see if I could find it streaming, and if it is, I didn't find it. But just listening to her talk about how awful Theo was to her was really heartbreaking because she's what, like all of 13, 14 years old?

[Chelsea Devontes]

I think she's 12 or 13 here.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. So this is a literal child and you're just berating them.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She also sounds like such a timid child in many ways. Like, she wants to follow the rules. She wants to do good. She wants do a good job. She wants to work hard. And so it's extra painful because Brandy just wanted to please everyone to do well. Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

And she understood the weight of, like, there's not a lot of people that look like us on TV. This is like 12 years old understanding that, you know, so it's like not having that nurturing, you know, Sheryl Lee Ralph would never actually would never.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Sheryl Lee Ralph coming up. But first, she gets a record deal. Atlantic record at 14 years old. And she did it. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now, and we'll be right back. Focus features in Blumhouse present Obsession. When I have a crush on a guy no one knows. Be careful.

[Julia Washington]

I wish Nikki loved me more than anyone in the entire world.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Who you wish for? Obsession is 96% fresh on rotten tomatoes. I love you so, so, so, so much. It's blood soaked nightmare fuel. Brooks Blood you put on her. You have been warned. Obsession. We did our under 17 nanometer without parent only theaters May 15th with special engagements in Dolby. Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer all day play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull summer all day play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit red bull.com brightsummerahead to learn more. See you this summer. Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. At 10 years old, she said, I want a record deal. At 14, she had a record deal. And the guy who was like, come back when you're 14. She did. And they're like, great, you have a deal now. And she tells a story. Did you know who this was? Because you were talking about how she would int. I didn't know who she was gonna say as she said, we spent hours that time fine tuning Love is on my side. And she said, Robin was just 17 then, as Green as I was and years away from becoming Robin Thicke. And I was like, robin Thicke.

[Julia Washington]

My. My jaw dropped. I was like, no, I don't like it.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I don't like it at all. I don't know why, but my body recoiled. But apparently they just worked on a song for a day, and that was that. And at 17, he went off to live his R and B life. Yeah, I guess.

[Julia Washington]

Ruining black women everywhere.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And that's why I was like, so this is what I mean. Like, I get guarded for the story. And she's like, robyn's great, right? She just moves on.

[Julia Washington]

And you're like, but, Brandi, you wrote this in 2025? Probably. I think maybe not. Come on. Like, we know. Yeah, we know.

[Chelsea Devontes]

So Brandi, you know, her first album comes out, and she explodes onto the scene and her second album, and at the exact same time, she gets Moesha, which we're gonna talk about in a second. So she's. I mean, just blowing up. And one of the groups her and her brother have looked up to their entire lives and are obsessed with, probably second only to Whitney Houston, is Boyz II Men. So one day when her mom wakes her up and says, wanye Morris is on the phone for you, she's like, oh, my God. My God. This is another one where I'm not faulting her mom, because I think in the context of the time, I believe many mothers and fathers did very similar things, where she's like, hey, this adult man wants to talk to my teenager.

[Julia Washington]

Famous.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Famous.

[Julia Washington]

My daughter wants to be in.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yes. Yeah, of course. Without giving it a second thought. And she had just gone through a heartbreak with her boyfriend. They were going to save each other's virginity for each other. And then he called her up and was like, actually on spring break. I went for it. Like, sorry, babe. So she's hurting. She's newly famous. And one night she walks into a restaurant and she hears a voice announce, tonight is a special evening. It's Brandy's birthday. I turned slowly and found myself standing before Boys to men in the flesh. I hadn't seen Wanye since he dropped over by my friend's house. And I'd never met the rest of the guys. Now here they were, surprising me for my birthday. And then she does another performance at the Tacoma Dome in Washington state. And after the show, Wanye's there with a dozen long stemmed white roses.

[Julia Washington]

That's a red flag. That's a red flag.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And she's there because she's opening for them. She's opening for Boys to Men. And this man is like, I know what'll do it. Surprising her for her teenage birthday and

[Julia Washington]

bringing her white roses, her sweet 16. Because at this point, you know, she was heartbroken. Cause, you know, things didn't work out with whatever his name was before him.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yep.

[Producer Christina]

Hey, everyone. Producer Christina here. Now, at this point in the episode, some of you might be wondering, why aren't they talking about Kobe Bryant? Now, for those who don't know, back in 1996, Kobe Bryant and Brandy Norwood briefly dated and they went to Kobe Bryant's prom together. It was highly publicized. They were pictures. And the reason why we don't talk about Kobe Bryant is because he's not mentioned, at least directly in the book. So Brandi actually talked about this in a recent interview with Parade magazine, and she said, I was hesitant to speak about Kobe because he's passed away. I wasn't sure if that was appropriate or not. You know, Kobe had such a special soul. I had the chance to meet him, go to prom with him, work with him on Moesha, and just admire him from afar. We just had a great time that night just being amongst regular teenagers. And also, Kobe's not the guy that she's referencing when she's talking about coming off of heartbreak and going into dating Wanye Morris, so. So I just wanted to clear that up. And now back into the episode, Wanye

[Julia Washington]

one day is like, you know, we

[Chelsea Devontes]

should do something together. You know that song Brokenhearted upcoming on your album, like, we should do it together, like as a duet. And she's like, oh, my God, like for real. And he's like, yeah, like, let's do it. And she wrote this. It seems to me that he weaponized my admiration, shaped my friendship into dependence, my respect, and to desire. I felt swept up in a current I couldn't control.

[Julia Washington]

Now,

[Chelsea Devontes]

what is a devastating sentence for me to say, Julia, is that this reminded me of an improv teacher or two of mine. And thankfully, I did not date them. But I absolutely remember that first message being like, you are so, so talented. And the desire I had for that to be true and my admiration for their position as the greatest improviser in Chicago. I was so swept into it that I didn't see it coming until it was in front of my face being like, we should have sex though, right? You're like, whoa. I thought, oh my God. And then you're like, I'm so stupid. I really thought, I really thought you thought I was talented. And this is what happens with Brady. So I just was trembling this entire chapter being like, I know this game. Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. I don't have necessarily a similar experience when it comes to like artistic profession, but I definitely have an inappropriate age gap romance in my history. And so a lot of just the ways that he was treating her and just like being so lovey dovey in the beginning. I mean, now we call it love bombing.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Right.

[Julia Washington]

That wasn't really a thing that we talked about in 1997 or whenever she was 16. We have this conversation all the time in my friend group about age gap romances. And like, when is it okay? And like, what's the definition? Because mine was. I was 25 when I met this person and there was a 20 year age gap. And then I have a. Yeah, he was, Listen, he looked good. Like he looked good. And also he helped me get out of a really dangerous situation. So like there's this weird, complicated.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Always goes. And I want to say always, but it's like, like, because they helped you, you overlook certain things. Also, I don't know anything about your relationship. Perhaps that was his in. You never know.

[Julia Washington]

You never know. And so like this conversation we're constantly having in our friend group because it seems to be a common theme with women. I know where we all have some version of an age gap. Whether it's mine is the longest, the biggest. 20 years.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Congratulations.

[Julia Washington]

Thanks. I should get a trophy, actually. And others are like maybe five or seven years or like 10 years. And the consensus that we all have is that, that it doesn't really matter what age we were when that relationship started. It does matter if you're like 15, 16, 21. Sure. But like the point is, is we were all in a very vulnerable state and we're taken advantage of. So like in theory, 25 is an adult. Right.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

It's interesting how that level of vulnerability of whatever age you were. Right. Like I was 25, I was running a program. I was. Was a single parent, I had a child. And yet there is still a lot of. I don't want to call it emotional abuse, but it's probably what it was.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

Happening because the power dynamics were different. And you know, he's been on the planet longer than I have. So there's this like, you know, I

[Chelsea Devontes]

think you nailed something really important because I've talked about age gap relationships in the Past, because they come up a lot in the memoirs, and the one I had was terrible. So that's my view on them. And I have had messages from people being like, I'm in an age gap relationship, and, like, very happy and fulfilled. And. And I think that's absolutely key to the age gap. Was the person in the lower power dynamic, the lower age, in a vulnerable position when you got together. And I think that is what is key to whether these relationships are bad or, you know, age doesn't matter to us, and we are in love.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. And with Wanye, it really does feel predatory. There's a point where, like, some of my notes were like, yeah, say some of them. Nope, this is the nerve. This is not normal. Especially at 16. Literally hate this.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

You know, he's 22, she's 16.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Like, and he would say out loud, my girlfriend is 16. So he knew.

[Julia Washington]

He knew.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And they hid it from her parents, and they hid it from the world. They knew to make a plan, to say, oh, we only started pursuing something when she was 18. So they were hiding for two years. This is the most egregious one. And Brandy knows it. He would make her. Sent him a page before she could call him on the phone. So she could never call him out of the blue if she had to send that page first. Because why? Because why? Because he was busy with other ladies.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. And that's so controlling. That's so manipulative. And she's 16, and she doesn't understand that. I got the sense too, that there was a level of innocence that maybe she wasn't. I mean, she talks a lot about. In the book about, like, I was, you know, my reputation is the good girl. I'm the good girl. I can't do anything wrong. Like, I'm not allowed to show my midriff in photo shoots. And, like, that's a huge part of what she talks about with her reputation. At the same time, it really did feel like, especially during the Wanye years, that she really believed that that's who she is.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

She is a good girl. She doesn't do these bad things. Like, they're not going to. Like, the line of just dating in secret is already bad enough.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. And also she's losing her virginity to him. And she had prized and kept precious and was saving it for this other boyfriend. Here's this man who is taking advantage of her. She wrote some sentences that I thought were stunning. She said, your first real love, your first experience with sex. These are a natural part of youth. Rites of passage that should unfold with tenderness and care. Mine unfolded under the influence of a man who seemed to know exactly how to make me question my own beliefs and boundaries. And I hung in this strange balance. I was navigating that time in full view of the world, every move scrutinized, every choice dissected by people who didn't know my heart. Heart and below. She said I was too naive to realize that deep down inside, he did not see me as special. I think he saw me as conquerable, as someone whose boundaries could be negotiated away.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, that broke my heart.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And it felt so relatable.

[Julia Washington]

So relatable. And then there's another point, too, where she says he and I understood with diamond cut clarity that public knowledge of our relationship would ignite scandal, potentially threatening everything we've both worked for. So it's like, you know what you're doing is wrong.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

And yet there's still this innocence to her when it comes to the relationship of believing. And then a couple pages later, she says, whatever existed between he and I, it felt real. I genuinely believed it was true love. And I was like, feelings of every women everywhere who were groomed, who were groomed 100%.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And she wrote this. She said, the shame I have carried over this relationship ends here, buried in these pages like ashes scattered to the wind. I have grown more resentful at his insistence on reframing that time, his continued attempts to rewrite history with himself as the misunderstood romantic lead rather than the adult man he was. His refusal to acknowledge what I believe he did, to take responsibility for the power I believe he wielded and abused, used, feels like its own form of continued abuse. He was old enough to know better, old enough to understand the power dynamics it plays. And then, God, this line. I would say this chapter makes the entire book feel worth it. Whatever notes we gave it, the fact that this chapter exists, I think, is just so stunning and such a gift. She wrote this. She said, being taken advantage of as an immature teenager and then having it thrown in your face. Face for the next 30 years is a kind of cruelty only reserved for women.

[Julia Washington]

I also underlined that passage as well. And it really does. Like, I don't know if you've heard him talk about it.

[Chelsea Devontes]

No, tell me.

[Julia Washington]

She calls them out in the book. She says, like, he never says the same story twice. Like, there's different details every time.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And he's, like, sharing it to capitalize on it, to capitalize on her fame, to make him look. He's like, oh, I had to let her down easy. I mean, okay, yeah, I'm just.

[Julia Washington]

Come on, dude.

[Chelsea Devontes]

So thrilled she finally spoke out and put this in its place.

[Julia Washington]

The final line of this chapter. I was like, thank you for saying this out loud. She said, I was a child, he was an adult, and it's time the world understood the difference. And I was like, amen. With like, exclamation points and underlines. Because I think especially when it comes to being, you know. And again, the printer ran out of ink with me, so you can't always tell that I'm black. But being like. Like, the over sexualization of black girls in our society is real. And here she is. She's 16. She's innocent. She still has this beautiful idolization of love. Like, she really thinks that this is something that is good and wonderful. And it's clear throughout the book that she is a girl who loves to be partnered.

[Chelsea Devontes]

She loves to be partnered. And also, she was groomed into it. She was groomed into her feelings. The way we were taught and are taught to look at our virginity, but especially in those precious chastity years of the early 2000s of, like, the. The way she must have felt tied to him long after that happened. And the way they end is that she happens to pull up to a stoplight, look to the left, and see him in his car fondling his assistant. And she's like, oh, you've been cheating on me the whole time. And he was like, yes, of course. Well, see you later.

[Julia Washington]

Of course I have. I'm a grown man.

[Chelsea Devontes]

That's why you.

[Julia Washington]

Of course you have. You're a grown. Sir.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Sir. Jail on top of emotionally abusing her and putting her down and making her doubt her talent. And this is right when her fame is peaking. So I think this also explains a lot of how she was birthed into the world of fame and her sense of self and how it was just pulled apart from the very beginning. Because this is right when she gets Moesha and she is recording music as she is in this TV show that is filming year round, like, almost constantly, especially with episode orders back in the day. Yeah. And so let's talk about Moesha. She said Sarah and Vida were rarities. One of the few black female writing teams who had managed to carve out space in writers rooms where they were often the only women of color. And they go and pitch this TV show. Moesha that Cheryl Lee Ralph played d her stepmom. And I love just like, you know, she was leading this sitcom, and now it's just here at Abbott elementary. And just like, like, Cheryl is just, like, such a gift in Hollywood. And also, she said she was so bad at first at the role of Moesha that they called up Kim Fields and is like, can you come help this girl? And she does. And I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Kim Fields is, like, famous and working, and she just took time to just come help this teenage girl be good at the role and, like, learn how to act. And she said Kim Fields is how she survived. Moeshe.

[Julia Washington]

I really love that story because it really felt like, again, the pressure and understanding the importance of, like, hey, this is a role that is going to mean something to so many little girls and teenagers everywhere. I remember when it ended, and then I remember, like, when streaming started, I was just like, why can't I find this show anywhere to stream? I would love to have the comfort of Moesha in my living room. Like, how everybody else has the comfort of, like, I don't know, friends or whatever other CW TV shows existed after the death of upn. And I got in a conversation with somebody on Twitter, RIP about how we couldn't find Moesha anywhere. And then one day it showed up on prime, but she had to pay for it. But I'm happy to report it is now on Tubi. All seasons are on Tubi.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Tubi is genius, y'. All, to be be snatching up the best content, giving it for free with ads, the way television works. And I. I think they're crushing it. Wow. I agree. Well, yeah, I really felt that she understood how important and beautiful and incredible this show was and how much it meant at the time, while holding in the other hand some pain about it. She wrote this. She said there were times when Moesha could be incredibly judgmental, even cruel, especially to those who loved her most. She could be regressive, contradicting her own feminist principles. Nothing graded on me more than how she sometimes treated her best friend. Friends making jokes about their bodies, their socioeconomic status, their intelligence. How could a show meant to empower black girls feature a protagonist who engaged in body shaming or slut shaming? The true magic of the series, in my opinion, was the sisterhood between Moesha, Kim and Nisi. And I worried that sometimes we undermine that magic with cheap jokes.

[Julia Washington]

I feel like that's fair.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

And also, that's also 90s TV.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I know. And I. I think she probably bears this burden of the imperfections of this character even more because she was the only young black girl character in Some ways I know there were other characters. Like, this was like, a huge. You know, she was the lead.

[Julia Washington]

Like, she was the lead.

[Chelsea Devontes]

She's named after her.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, yeah. It's not like Family Matters, where it's like, oh, yeah, Laura Winslow. Like, we all know Laura Winslow. Like, you know, but it's very much

[Chelsea Devontes]

her show through her lens and that, like, you know, you've got. Got so many, like, white male teenage leads on multiple shows that you can compare the differences in their personalities and their humor. And, like, this was, like, just Moesha. So I think she feels and must have heard some extra rebuttals towards how her character was handled. Now we're gonna get to her brother Ray, who she calls Ray in the book.

[Julia Washington]

Chelsea, I am dying. Okay, Continue. Sorry.

[Chelsea Devontes]

You know, I sometimes. Sometimes teach how to write memoir, and there's a lesson I teach that I really had to grapple with in this memoir, which is they say, like, you don't have to tell anyone's story but your own. You don't tell other people's stories if it's not within yours, especially if it'll hurt them, especially if they're alive and you don't want to. But then I read a book like this where his story is entirely missing, and I rethink that lesson because I think the. The asterisk is like. Unless, of course, you are both famous and the public knows both of your stories and your intertwining timelines, in which case you do need to acknowledge it because she wrote a lot about Rey. And also absolutely nothing.

[Julia Washington]

Absolutely nothing at the same time.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, I will read this paragraph, and it's kind of what she says throughout the whole book. She said, what makes me proudest of my brother isn't his accomplishments, though there are many. But his resilience, his ability to reinvent himself, to build his own empire on his own terms terms, to remain fearlessly, unapologetically, Ray J. We are still each other's best friend. We are still each other's biggest fan. We are still Ray J and Brandi R. And B. Finding our way through this complicated world together. And I said, then what did you think when he made a sex tape with Kim Kardashian literally as his best friend? Can you please speak on how he has said Kim and her mom paid him to do this and orchestrate it? Can you speak on those claims?

[Julia Washington]

Speak on that. Especially because your reputation is a good girl. Yes. Like, how is your bro? Like, I'm sorry, your siblings impact how people also view you.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yes. Hugely.

[Julia Washington]

Especially when you are, quote, 25 months apart. Just say two years. And like, you have this huge thing happen to your family that Ray J did, and you have no thoughts.

[Chelsea Devontes]

No thoughts. And also, I think. Think I'm filling in the blanks for Ray J here, but their mom manages both of them. And when your mom is your manager already. Holy shit. But also she's managing your sister who's successful and managing you who are not. I can only imagine the pain, the. The very complicated puzzle of pain that creates for you.

[Julia Washington]

Is this a situation where maybe. Because you know how the husbands are always awful when the wife is, like, more successful, and then we read about it and you cover it and then the memoir coverage, and we're just like, oh, that guy, he is very insecure that his wife is talented. Like, is that also part of it?

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. And, you know, he alleges. And granted, he's not in this book, so I. There's nothing for me to back this up with. But he. He's made some wild youtubes that maybe are true. I have no idea that he's like, Kris Jenner and Kim plans the sex tape. Here's the agreement I made. They were going to release it. They saw how Paris did. I did it on purpose. All stuff. It's like, is that a decision he made? Because Brandy was doing so well, and he was like, let me go this route. It's weird to know what this man's dick looks like.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah,

[Chelsea Devontes]

because I'm sorry the sex tape got leaked. I saw some of it. Like, if you didn't know any of that and you just read this book, you'd be like, what a nice guy who is her best friend and once had an album. The end.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. Especially when she goes hard on how encouraging he is to her with her career and how like. Like, girl, you got. You know, you need to self love. I know you struggle with. She. She talks about struggling with self worth, and he's, like, constantly there being like, you got this. You got this, you got this. And you're just like, but, Brandi, you're a good girl. I need to know what you thought because you kept secrets from people because you're Your good girl reputation, and yet you have no opinion about what your brother did. Like, I would have an opinion if my brother popped up with the sex tape. I would be on Instagram live talking about it.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Okay. I love. I love that for you. I don't know if I'd be living it, but I'd have an opinion. In my memoir, twenty Years later. I mean, I think that what's interesting is I think she's still in a bit of a prison of the 90s and early aughts, which is when the media set her on fire and stole her career from her, is how I look at it. And I think she's still in that prison of sharing will hurt me. And I wish I could be like, memoirs have changed. Like, welcome to 2026. Because she loves him so much, she absolutely could have written through her love for him what happened in a way that is incredible. Unless, of course, there's NDAs and Kris. General sue you possible. But you could still write your opinion and you could still talk about how this impacted you without making it horrible or salacious or bad or. But yeah, I think she clearly feels protective of him and loves him very much and didn't wanna talk about. About it.

[Julia Washington]

Fair. Well. And also. And also. And also. And also you wrote a memoir. I need to know how you felt about this. Sorry. No. What do you mean?

[Chelsea Devontes]

I feel the same way.

[Julia Washington]

I mean, I'm actually not sorry. I really do. I was like, oh, I can't wait for the R B chapter. I bet that's about her and Ray J. And then I was like, okay, cool. Got it. Message received, best friend. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

All right. So then Cinderella happens. I mean, this is. This was revolutionary. Like a black Cinderella at that time, at this time, it'd be a revolutionary tomorrow, which is now. And she wrote this, which I thought was interesting. What none of us fully grasped then, what we couldn't possibly have known, was how profoundly this single casting decision would challenge an industry still clutching tightly to outdated traditions. I said, you didn't know? I mean, I guess that's great for all of you. That seems impossible, but she said. One network executive who enthusiastically supported Whitney as the fairy godmother, expressed reservations about the prospect of two black women in the central roles. Quote, if you're coming up with someone like Brandy as Cinderella, this executive suggested, why can't you go and get Jewel instead and have a white Cinderella and a black fairy godmother? Craig and Neil, bless their conviction, the men behind this movie didn't flinch in the face of this. Absolutely not. They responded firmly. The whole point is that Cinderella is black and so is their fairy godmother. We weren't interested in a white Cinderella when we started working on it, and we still aren't. This is unbelievable how they got this cross. And of course, they could see Whitney as the fairy godmother, as the magical woman who fixes the white girl's life. And so the fact that they held their ground and that we had this movie. What a gift.

[Julia Washington]

I love it. And the whole time, too, when I was reading that paragraph, I was like, oh, I love that. You're like, we're not doing the Magical Negro. Thank you.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Which that exactly Executive clearly thought they were doing. And they said no. They said no. And they listened and Disney did it.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I don't feel like they could do it tomorrow like they did Little Mermaid. And I guess now because we have the Internet, they heard everyone's racism about that. But wow. Okay. I wrote this note on the next page. So now we're about page 200, which is where you said the book plateaus. This is my note at the top of it. That chapter, it Sundays, she's been 18

[Julia Washington]

forever for a long time. I was like, oh, is this only going to be like 14 to 18? Like, if that's the case, cool. I still don't feel like we had enough. No, that's the case.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I was like, whoa, we just turned 18. Then finally she gets to the Boy Is Mine chapter. I mean, this song, the way this song has a chokehold on my entire childhood. Like, just the amount of times I was like, talent show, boys mind. Talent show, boys mind. And then karaoke night. Horrible karaoke nights where you're just wasted with girls being like, let's do it. God, I love this song. So this was another fantastic chapter. She said. So there Monica and I stood, all draped in elegance and glamour, yet barely concealing the ice in our eyes. It was the 1998 MTV Video Music Awards. Oh, I loved this chapter. So she talks about how her, Monica and Aaliyah kind of hit pop culture at the same time. And the way they're treated very similar to Ms. Britney, Jessica, Mandy and Xtina, where they start getting compared and thrashed about against each other. And this idea that three young black women exist is, like, mind blowing. And so everyone is talking about rivalry and cat fights and all the stuff that the media does. And also her and Monica have something in common, which is that they both broke, were obsessed with Whitney as kids growing up trying to make their careers. You have these two Whitney obsessed teenagers who have now made it onto the scene at the same time. And she said they refused to play into, like, a feud, but that radio DJs would create skits where, like, someone played Brandy and someone played Monica. And they were always, like, fighting with each other on the radio, even though they never actually fought in person. And until they did.

[Julia Washington]

Until they did.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Until they did.

[Julia Washington]

So somebody needs to write some hated rivalry fanfic about this. Like this is their version of heated rivalry.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Please heed the call. I need the Monica and Brandy Boy Is Mine fanfic. Yes. So she is working on a track on her next album and it's the Boy Is Mine. And she said it was like a stripped down, mournful version. And she was like, wait a minute, I see this as a dual wet. And she's like, can you guys call Monica? Because I think she thinks I hate her and ask her if she'll do it with me. And they come back and they're like, she said to call yourself. And so she calls Monica. Monica's like, just call me yourself. Like, let's go hang. And they go to. Is it Magic Mountain? They go to some roller coaster extravaganza somewhere in Atlanta.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, like a, like a Six Flags.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, she loves Magic Mountain and Six Flags. And so they go hang out all day and like ride roller coasters until they get recognized and people start going crazy and they leave. But it's so cool, these two teenage women in the business at the same time getting to like talk to each other for the first time. That to me is where the fanfic is like that you could be friends through this.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. There's something so beautiful about it being such a teen driven activity. Right. Like a music parts is such a big high school activity. And I don't think Monica had a traditional high school career either. So like they get to have this moment like that's a field trip for high schools. We're going to the park.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And also like, you can't be like complaining about your pop stardom and money to a fellow 17 year old who's like going high school. Like, they, they would resent you. They don't understand this is like one of the few people in the world who could really understand her. Right. They record the Boy's Mind and it's just immediately out of this world. They up the tempo. They're like, holy shit. And then when we returned to la, she wrote. We learned that Monica wanted to recut her vocal with her own producer and that she immediately feels bad of, like, oh, the session she did with me, she doesn't like, like. But then she said her vocals are better with the new producer. And I'm sure our producer was like, you can do better than this. Then she said the song goes up. And without warning, Clive announced he was renaming Monica's album to the Boy Is Mine because It was a track on Brandy's album and it blew up and he wanted equal ownership of the song. And she said she blamed Monica before she ever knew the full story. She said neither of us truly wielded that much power in those days. We were teenagers in a world where men twice our age made decisions and about our careers, our images, our narratives. But instead, she was mad at her.

[Julia Washington]

I do appreciate that she acknowledged that. Like, oh, I was mad at the time, but I also realize now that we were kids.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, absolutely. And she later writes, and then the feud gets worse when she has the opportunity to go on the Tonight show with Jay Leno and promote her album and sing the song. But Monica is unavailable, so she's saying it alone, singing both parts, not someone should have. That doesn't sound like a good performance.

[Julia Washington]

It doesn't sound like a good performance. But she justifies it with like, well, the. We have to promote it.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And I think that, yeah, they were fighting over this song they had created together. And she said they then hate each other for years to come. That takes years to remove. So then she said they were both booked for the VMAs and then the Grammys, and then they were nominated for best R B performance. And then she said they won the Grammy and her and Monica, like, race up and win it. And she said the lesson wasn't lost on either of us. The industry would always try and create narratives that served its purpose, especially for young black women. But we had the power to write our own stories, to define our own relationships, to control our own legacies. So loved that chapter. And it's gonna come back a little bit.

[Julia Washington]

I have a question for you. Because she talks about how the whole point was it supposed was supposed to be subversive. Like us doing this was supposed to be subversive. What did you think about that? Like her saying that and not anticipating that there would become this reality.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, I mean, I think that was. The thing is, it's genius. It's one of the biggest hits of the time. They try and recreate that magic later and don't. The fact that she had the wherewithal to bring her onto a duet and get to work with her on something so they wouldn't be enemies. Even though the song is about feuding over a boy and then it turns into an actual feud. It sounds like 17 year old decision making now. Did you not believe it?

[Julia Washington]

I kind of had a moment where I was like, I'm surprised that you didn't realize it would turn into a real Feud like, that surprised me that she didn't have that foresight. But then again, she is, like, 17, 18 years old.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And they had that great day riding roller coasters before they even decide to do this. I think she thought it was a friend. Also, this splits the money on the song, so there's no way you'd be like, hey, would you like to get a bunch of money with me? And we're gonna perform a lot together, even though I think we're probably gonna feud later. Like, no, she had no idea it was coming.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And they didn't protect them. And I'm sure all the men played into it. All right. She does it. Made for a TV movie with Diana Ross. And I only have one thing from the entire chapter I want to say, which is, at one point, she's struggling. She's overworked. She's had no childhood. She goes to her mom for help. Her mom is like, I can't help you. I'm your manager now. You need to get to work. Work. Said with love, supposedly. And she finally goes to Diana Ross on set, and she's like, how do you do it all? Like, how do you have a life? How do you have boundaries but also do music and also act? And, like, how do you do this? Because I'm. I'm dying. And Diana Ross said, I've got three pieces of advice for you. No chewing gum while talking. It's distracting and unprofessional. She tapped my jaw lightly. Set up straight. Straight. Posture is presence. She placed a finger between my shoulder blades, encouraging me to straighten my spine. And keep your knees together, because the cameras are always watching, even when you think they aren't. I said, worst advice ever.

[Julia Washington]

Sounds like advice from Motown.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I was like, oh, poor Diana Ross.

[Julia Washington]

Poor to.

[Chelsea Devontes]

To grow up in life and a young girl asks you for help, and that's the advice you pass on. Just misery.

[Julia Washington]

Intergenerational misery. Yup. It gave me the whole, like, oh, yeah, you were taught. Like, I don't know if you've ever seen this documentary. This is kind of. I. I promise it's related. Yeah, there's this documentary that went on in the 90s. It was a music documentary, and they did a whole episode dedicated to Motown. And they interviewed the etiquette coach. I don't know what her official name is, that, like, coached, like, the Supremes, all of the girl groups that Motown brought in, and maybe even some of the. Of the guys. But it was very clear she was working with the women. And this. This woman Drip head to toe. She looks fantastic. She's probably in her, like, 80s at this point. However, that advice sounds exactly like her interview from that documentary.

[Chelsea Devontes]

That was your knees. I remember one time, some old man friend of like a stepdad or something of mine, so I don't know how he got in my life, but I. I have this clear memory of him being like, best advice for you, always keep a nickel between your knees. And I didn't understand it for a second until I realized, like, oh, so you can't open your legs.

[Julia Washington]

Thank you, sir.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Keep your knees closed, Brandi. I'm sad for both of them. Not mad at Diana Ross. I'm sad for both of them.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, yeah. Just this I. This idea that again, like the road to femininity, to being respected as a

[Chelsea Devontes]

woman and a black woman. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So now we've got a Dringo. Oh, my least favorite Dringo of all. She lists her exact 1 weight, 24 inches around my waist, size 2 jeans, 115 on the scale. And she talks about the pressure to say extremely thin, especially in those years, which were the heroin chic years. And this. Plus she's been working non stop without a day of rest. Like she can barely get that day to go ride roller coasters for years and years and years. She feels like she's lost her mom. And then she starts dating someone she calls the dreamer. And she says he's a backup dancer. But given that details may have been changed, I'm not sure that's correct. But she says it turns into deep, deep emotional abuse. And one of her memories is that he called her a 13 times in 20 minutes once. And her mom, I gotta tell you, I actually think this is great. As long as your child's a reader. Her mom gives her a book about verbal abuse. And Brandy's like, no, it's fine. But then one day when things get really bad with him, she runs into her bedroom and opens it and realizes that's the relationship she's in. I was given a brutal book that saved my life. It was, I'm gonna say, a little too late. It was after the relationship, but it's called Saving Beauty from the Beast. What a title. It really did change my life, though, because it was this thing where you think you're just like all alone because you're also a teenager. So you think that and then a book basically writes a prescription to everything that just happened to you. But I do think, I don't know how y' all feel out there. I Guess this is a book podcast. But I think it's a really beautiful way to get through to someone who just. Who doesn't want things to get through to them. A book, a podcast, another tool where you can take in content about what's happening to you without having to face someone who loves you, where you are instantly defensive and unwilling to hear it.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. And I think in this case, too, with Brandy, what I'm reading between the lines because of her relationship with Wanye, because of her relationships with other men in the past, maybe her parents didn't feel like this was a situation where they could approach because her mom did confront her politely about Wanye was like, are we sure?

[Chelsea Devontes]

Sure.

[Julia Washington]

This is just friendly. Like, this feels more. And, you know, she was like, it's absolutely. We're just friends. And two, when you're dating in high school or high school age and you're.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And she knew to lie. She knew her parents would shut it down.

[Julia Washington]

Exactly. And so I think, like, her mom sending her this book and then saying, call me when you read it is really powerful because she knew this is the only way my daughter's gonna understand what she's going through. And that's really hard. It was really, really, really hard to read.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Absolutely.

[Julia Washington]

About the dreamer.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Like, and also, I hated the name she gave him because she never really talked about why he was the dreamer. That's a pretty, like, precious name. Like. Like, could have been the demon. Instead, he's the dreamer. I imagine it's some, like, jab at him of, like, I don't know. He was probably always like, I'm gonna start an ice cream company or like, whatever.

[Julia Washington]

That he never did.

[Chelsea Devontes]

But other than that, I'm like, why? Why is he the dreamer?

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Because he was jealous of her success, maybe.

[Julia Washington]

And was very vocal about being jealous of her success.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And it sounded similar to Wanye. Like, it just sounded like, you've been groomed into this relationship. She's probably 20 here. And all of this leads her to have a nervous breakdown, a true nervous breakdown where she has left the dreamer. But one day on set for Moesha, she just walks off set and keeps driving and is just. Just sounds like delusional and hallucinating. And she calls the dreamer who treats her terribly. And her family comes, and she's kind of hallucinating and laughing and being like, I'm fine. And finally her mom makes sure she has a break. And I. Again, she writes wonderfully about her mom. But something I read between the lines is that there were a couple times in this book that she approaches her mom and tells her it's too much and she needs a break. And her mom is like, you wanted to this. No. And I feel like those are moments when like key things were missed and led to this. And then here her mom gives her a break from Moesha and then says, this was beautiful. She said, I'm not gonna be your manager anymore because I need to be your mom. I thought that was stunning.

[Julia Washington]

And that's gotta be so hard because what's the line there? Like, it's motherhood's already super hard and like trying to understand like the balance of I wanna support my kids dreams, especially when it's an unconventional dream, especially when there's no guarantee that they're going to make enough live. It's not like you're like, yeah, babe, be an accountant. You're always going to have a job. It is a very. Like, you're taking a big risk here.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

And. And she in that balance of like caring for your daughter, but then also business, business, business. That's such a hard position to be in.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I have, I have something terrible to say and I know there are, there are reps who listen to this podcast and my manager listens, but I still, I'm sorry, I have to say this manager is motherhood. Oh, it's motherhood via business. But wow, are you mothering someone? It's built into the relationship when you're an artist. And that's crazy to say because a lot of people out there got some bad mommies. But like it is the motherhood of your career when you are also a teenager and you're in all these vicarious positions legally and paperwork with people. Like, I can understand the desire for a mom to be like, I will take that role. Because not taking the role of manager with teenage daughter probably feels like letting someone else parent them. And yet I'd. It can't be the best option given what's happened classically with all the momagers out there.

[Julia Washington]

When the mom did say I'll be your mom, I wrote momager in the margin. I was like, but what you're saying makes perfect sense because like, like that nurturing element is so important just in relationships in general. Whether it's romantic or platonic or business. Like, you don't want to be in relationship with somebody who doesn't care about. Feel like they're care about you. Yes.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Stuff outside of business. Because even when you're managing business, you're managing the person as a whole. Their time, their creativity. Their money. All these things that are just, like, add up to, like, your life. That's why I say it's motherhood, because you're managing a lot of things in this person's life.

[Julia Washington]

Life.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And so, yeah, I love that she took a step back. But then later in the book, she's going to be like, I needed my mom back as my manager. It's the only time I felt good. So she clearly has a tricky relationship.

[Julia Washington]

And that was a flip for me where I was like, again, I wish you would be comfortable sharing more about how this relationship might have been volatile or not, because it felt very much like you just spent 200 pages telling us how much you hated having your mom as a manager, and now you want her back. I need to understand. And. Well, it's.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Whatever. It's not. When she said that, I was like, wait, what? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, everyone, you just heard a whole lot of what happened. Guess what happens next. Guess. Everyone, think in your head. What comes next? Someone out there got it. I know it. She's like, I'm really into the Torah now. I'm into Scientology, and I'm learning from Deepak Chopra. I said, oh, no, we've really hit rock bottom. Why is Hollywood. I mean, oh, Scientology, baby girl. Who got to Brandy?

[Julia Washington]

I panicked. I was like, please. Is she. Please don't.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Please don't. She. She does. It sounds like. She was like, okay, I'm not going to become Jewish, but I'll read the Torah and the Quran. I'm not. But I'm not gonna become Muslim. Love and Scientology. Then she backs away from that. I'm worried Deepak Chopra stayed. Stayed in her life. And at this point, this is why I'd like to. This is where I'd like to tell everyone that Deepak Chopra, Oprah is in the Epstein files, emailing Epstein to bring his harem of girls to his spiritual talks. Oh, I just love that. I've always hated him. It makes me feel so good. But she's casually mentioning these men who you're like, wait, that's a questionable man. What are you gonna say about him? And then she's like, loved meeting Michael Jackson. Fell back in my chair. And I get it for that moment, that time. But again, you're writing this in 2025.

[Julia Washington]

In 2025. Like, we have so many documentaries that at this point, it's not as quiet, secret people. We know. It's in pop culture.

[Chelsea Devontes]

We know. Do you know?

[Julia Washington]

Do you know? Because again, it's like one of those things where it's like in our black household, this conversation comes up all the time. Like, how much of Michael Jackson are we still allowed to listen to? Like, this is a regular conversation. So I'm just like, Brandi, it's 2025 when you're probably writing this book. Read the room.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Read the room.

[Julia Washington]

We can have an appreciation for the music and the things that he did. And. And also both things can be true.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Both things can be true. I don't think she has that with people in her life. I don't feel like she can include the bad about them.

[Julia Washington]

I agree, I agree. That's why I feel like there's a level of like, she's removed from the stories about herself that she's telling.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yes, I agree. All right. There's two giant stories we have to get to, and then the book is over. Because the entire book is probably up until 18. And then like 40 pages are on the rest of her life. So the next huge thing that happened happens is that she gets pregnant with a guy named Robert, and she writes more about these horrible relationships than she wrote about Robert, which is like, he's a friend. And I got pregnant. It happened so fast. And she's like, I'm thrilled. And in 2002, Brandy announces she's gonna have a child. How old Was she here?

[Julia Washington]

22, 22, probably.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

And 22, 23.

[Chelsea Devontes]

As you said, she had the relationship of, I'm not even going to show my midriff. So to be unmarried and to be so young, having a child, which is also something else we talk about in memoirs of women in the spotlight, having a child or marrying someone as a way to take control back of their life. I don't know if that plays into this because she didn't write too much about it, but then she's like. And then there was no spark with Robert. And so we separated. And then she said, this is what I want to read about it. Now, when she wrote this out, I said, so much is missing here. But she wrote this. She's like, you know, we became friends and we were co parenting and everything was lovely. And then she said, I heard Wendy Williams announce with barely contained glee that she had scored an exclusive interview with Brandy's ex. The word sliced through my exhaustion like a cold blade. My brain pinballed between panic and disbelief. He wouldn't. Why would he speak to anyone, let alone the self proclaimed queen of gossip, about us, about me, about the. The mother of his child. And basically because she knew she was going to get heat for being unmarried, but also was not ready to marry him. They agreed they would just lie. And people would say, why aren't you married? They would say, we are, and that this would help her save face. And then he goes on Wendy Williams after they've broken up, and he says, quote, there was never a marriage. He proceeded to tell Wendy, and by extension, the entire world, that we had fabricated our marriage to protect my pristine image. Image that I had been, quote, the other woman that he had reconnected with. His girlfriend, who was now carrying his child. And most devastating of all, that the entire charade had been orchestrated by my mother. Now, what killed me about this book is that she never was like, no, it wasn't. Or, I can't believe he cheated on me with another woman who's having his child, just as I've just had his child cheating. She doesn't address it in a way that made me go, is some of it true? I don't understand what's happening.

[Julia Washington]

She was so calm in writing about the absolute betrayal.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

Of him saying this on national television. I was like, I am a woman who has a baby daddy. We are finally peaceful because that child turned 18 and became peaceful. I no longer have to orchestrate shit. But it's like, I was shocked at how she was so. Just, like, restrained.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I don't know. Yeah.

[Julia Washington]

Restrained about it. And, like, the idea of, like, why she's the other woman. I have somebody else. This was no big deal. But then also in the three paragraphs, she wrote about him prior to talking about how important he was and how good he made her feel and how cared for she was. And I was just like, like, what happened?

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, I, I.

[Julia Washington]

Where is what happened?

[Chelsea Devontes]

What.

[Julia Washington]

How do you get from. This man made me feel very secure in my pregnancy. Great love that. To he is going on television. Like, I felt like that happened a lot in the book Chelsea, where she was like, this guy is great. This guy is great. And then, oh, my God, he betrayed me. And you're just like, at some point, brandy, I need you to go to therapy. Which I'm pretty sure she acknowledges later that she did. But there's something about this whole. What's the right. Like, what is this cycle that we're in that we're constantly getting betrayed? I'm not blaming her. That is not what I'm doing. But I'm very confused about how I'm constantly in this story with her where she's like, and then I was betrayed. And you're just like, what?

[Chelsea Devontes]

I know. I know and also, like, I get being betrayed over and over again. It happens. It's weird that she just doesn't write about it. She's like, he said these things anyways. It's like, wait, what do you think about that? Why did he say that? Why did he say, your mom orchestrated it? She. Then she basically loses everything. She loses her covergirl deal. She loses. I mean, her entire career goes down. She has to go on Oprah. Well, she doesn't have to, but she goes on Oprah.

[Julia Washington]

We recently learned that she got married and is. She's married now?

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yes, in a. Where are they now? At the admits. She lied about it because she felt the pressure of having to be perfect and apologized to Oprah for lying to her. I felt like having a child out

[Julia Washington]

of wedlock would ruin that.

[Chelsea Devontes]

My wife would ruin my career, everything that I built. And I'm really sorry for that because,

[Julia Washington]

I mean, you just don't lie to Oprah. Okay?

[Chelsea Devontes]

I mean, this is brutal. And she loses everything from this. And she said, I have paid incalculable costs for that single decision. The judge is judgment. I fled from found me anyway, raising questions that haunt me still. What if I had embraced honesty from the beginning? How much of the backlash stemmed from my pregnancy outside marriage and how much from the deception itself? After years of crafting an immaculate image, I'm certain the reaction would have been severe had I told the truth initially, and my child would have suffered. Yet ultimately, I met the same fate anyway.

[Julia Washington]

I was not a good girl, but I also wasn't a bad girl. But I didn't have a good girl reputation to protect. But also child out of wedlock also very, very young. Yeah, like, I was a teenager when I got pregnant, but I was in my 20. Like, I was 20 by the time that kid came around. And so I understand this secrecy around it. Like, I understand this fear, especially when you come from. I mean, her dad is the music director at their church. Right. There's this level to it where it's like, we can't acknowledge that this great sin has happened because it is such a sin. And we are. We have failed. Like, it's not a personal failure, it's a familial failure. And especially at that time, because I think I was. I think it was like a couple years later that I had my child. So when she's talking about, like, the secrecy of it all, I felt that very deeply because, like, there's this element to it where you're just like, we don't want anybody to Know, but also we love the baby. And you're just like, but not.

[Chelsea Devontes]

But not you.

[Julia Washington]

But not you. But not you. And I do think. And this is where I am judging. I'm so sorry. But also not really sorry. I do think hitting it head on and just being like, yeah, this shit happened. Sorry. Like, I was pressured to marry that man. I said no. Well, you can't have a baby out of wedlock. Watch me. I don't want to be legally tied to that person. Like, respect that decision. And so, like, it hurt in the beginning, but by the time the first birthday came around, nobody gave a fuck, really.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Ah.

[Julia Washington]

It was over. Like, it was a non issue. Like, oh, whoops, you know, let's see, we had a little mistake. But then there's this human that is innocent and beautiful and represents this, like, great, I don't know, ball of just, like, anything is possible and everyone just. Just, like, falls in love. Because I've heard a rumor that being a grandparent is better than being a parent. And, like, it just sort of happens. Would that have happened for Brandi? I'm making an assumption. Her career, whatever. I can't speak to that. I do believe that her family would have been okay.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Well, definitely. It sounds like her parents, at least the way she wrote the book, is that they were always happy and fine about it and that it was for the public. Julia, thank you for sharing that story. I feel like that she is, like, so inspiring and beautiful. And also the way you talk about, like, all of a sudden there's this gift and this child that wipes everything away. That's kind of what happens to Brandy in the book when she has Serah. She's just sort of like, all of it was worth it. And I'm just here to protect her. And I don't care that Robert. That's me moving on. I'm protecting my child. But I mean, this is really going to be sort of the moment when Brandy starts to leave pop culture in the way we knew her in it. And who do you think manages her? Guess in your head. Guess in your head. It's Benny Medina. Benny Medina, J. Lo's infamous manager. I said, well, no wonder you miss your mom. I can't imagine. Benny Medina did a great job. I don't think he did. And then we get to the other huge part of the book, which, when this book was coming out, I said, is she gonna write about the car accident? And I don't know what happened to my brain, but this car accident was in my head almost like, you hear it from so many other people and so many other people that you, like, don't even know the story. I had. I remember this and had no details of the story correct in my memory. I'm curious how you think she wrote about it basically, in 2006. This is from a report on TMZ, so not her book. Brandi was driving her land Rover at 65 mph and did not notice that the cars in front of her had slowed considerably, miserably, we're told. Brandi's vehicle struck a Toyota in front of her. That Toyota then hit another Toyota, and then the car in the middle slid sideways and hit the center divider, and then it was struck by another car, and the woman driving that car died. And in Brandy's book, you know, I think what I really appreciated, that she just really centers the woman whose life was lost. And the thing she writes that's different from the reporting is that she said it was an accident, a tragic convergence of circumstance and human error. But a woman lost her life, and I had lived. And then later her mom is like, why don't you speak out right now? Like, why don't you speak out? And then Courtney, who I think is their publicist, said, why don't you speak out? People haven't fully heard from you, Courtney said, his voice gentle but insistent. What is the purpose in doing that? I asked. To clear the air, he said. Why? Because I want a career again. My voice cracked around the edges. This shouldn't be about me, he said. If you fully share your story, you can move on. And one of the things you should address is how you were treated by the media during this time, he suggested, his tone careful, measured each word. Like, it might break me. Like a murderer, I whispered, finally meeting his gaze. Quote, people are going to want to know exactly what happened, my mother interjected, her eyes holding mine. Brandy being the fourth or fifth car in the collision Collision herself, doesn't really know what happened. And she writes that the collision had already happened, and then her car became a part of it. All of the press reports are like, Brandy started it. And she navigates that as much as she can while saying it didn't really matter because this woman died. And I never knew what to do with myself after that. And she said, I began to listen to the Internet, and I began to believe I was the awful, reckless monster that the Internet and thus the world believed me to be. And she said, the grief has never left me.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, and it made me wonder, too. Like, does she even Remember what was going through her mind at the time of the accident. Because she does talk about how it's in fragments. You know, it's so easy to zone out when you're driving and not necessarily realize, like, oh, traffic has slowed down because it's so easy to just be in your head. And so it made me kind of wonder, like, was she maybe, I don't know, thought distracted because baby daddy's doing something weird? I don't know.

[Chelsea Devontes]

We think that. But she wrote like, I was clear headed. I was not foggy, I was not tired. Like, that's what she wrote in the book.

[Julia Washington]

I trust that she knows her own mind. I also know that when you're behind the wheel and you're. I guess it's me wanting to believe that. How do you miss brake lights when you're going 65 miles? And so I'm giving her, like, I

[Chelsea Devontes]

think that's also the difference. Difference. What's reported is that she missed brake lights and at 65 miles per hour slammed into the car in front of her. What's written in the book is that those cars had already been in a collision and she's the fourth or fifth car to join. It's very different. And I don't know what to say to that. Two versions are written down.

[Julia Washington]

Exactly.

[Chelsea Devontes]

They look into it. They're like, it's fully accidental. I don't know. But also.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

When a life is lost, like, you really feel her grief because they then book over, book over. Oh, I kept saying, there's only two more things. There's two more things.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. Okay.

[Chelsea Devontes]

She and Monica try and do another duet, which obviously did not hit the way the boy's mind did. And the night when they are performing at the Beverly Hilton, that's the night that Whitney dies.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And Brandy had been talking to her for three hours on the phone the day before. Three hours. And none of that relationship is in the book. And then when Whitney passes, she's just utterly devastated. And we don't get more than that. And her and Monica are devastated. They loved her so much. And like three days after Whitney's funeral, they're like, you have to do the music video. And they did it. And I'm like, we have not learned to say no. Right. And like, I should talk, but, like, say no.

[Julia Washington]

No. It's hard.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. And this is devastating. This is the final thing that happens in the book. I mean, this is page 345. And the book ends at 3:58. She plays Roxie Hart on Broadway Chelsea,

[Julia Washington]

when I read that, I was like, oh, my God, how lucky am I to read a memoir for glamorous trash where the writer gets to play Roxy Hart? I am God's favorite in this moment.

[Chelsea Devontes]

What do you think we're at in terms of memoirs that end with them playing Roxie Hart? I feel like we're at 13 that feels. I bet I could list 13 women who have played Roxie Hart and written about it as the resurgence of their life inside their memoir. And when they weren't doing that, they were on Dancing with the Stars or both.

[Julia Washington]

And that's the picture. That's the final picture. In the picture is her as Roxie

[Chelsea Devontes]

Hart, her as Roxy. She's like, roxy brought me back to life. And you know, Brandi is so fucking talented. So we've got a real talented Roxy on our hands. I love that we've got a non white Roxy, you know, leading the show. I hate this. I hate this. I said no. And you know what?

[Julia Washington]

I.

[Chelsea Devontes]

You know, my note is you're writing about Roxie Hart, but you're not going to write about Queens, right? The TV show about a girl group starring you and Eve that clearly ended with so much drama that you didn't even mention it.

[Julia Washington]

It.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, but you're on Broadway as Roxy Hart, but no Queens.

[Julia Washington]

But no Queens. She's like, we're not doing that. My goal in life was to be Roxy Hart, and I didn't know that until they offered me Roxy Hart.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And now I am happy. And then I wrote a memoir and I asked my daughter Sarah if. If people wanted to hear from me or if I was irrelevant. And she said people wanted to hear. And she was right. Brandi, we want to hear from you. We want to hear from you.

[Julia Washington]

Okay, can I just say, I actually really did love how she protected her daughter from the fact that she was Brandy for the first couple of years. Because I was thinking about it in contrast to the Beckhams, who. It's like their kids were berated by media from. They were in utero and they had no. You know, it's like. It's from the jump. But here's Brandi. Granted, not great how she had to like, sort of recluse in that way, but I did really love it felt to me like she was like, I'm prioritizing this child's development with my. In a relationship with me as her mother. And so then when they. Whatever holiday it was when they're all together and they pop in the tapes and she's just like, running to the room. It's like, that's my mom.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And she's crying. She's like, you're famous. And you sang these songs and you didn't tell me?

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, I felt like it allowed her to actually develop an authentic relationship with her daughter and not be like, well, I'm Brandi's daughter.

[Chelsea Devontes]

That's so beautiful. And also, Brandi probably didn't get to have many authentic relationships with people. So the fact that she got one with her daughter and her daughter gets one with her before all this stuff entered. Entered the chat.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. That is really beautiful. I think. I. Yeah, I'm really glad you said that. I read it a different way, where I'm like, you just went away, and nothing in your life in the past 15 years was worth writing about besides Roxy. This can't be true. All right, let's do the booktool test. First question. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?

[Julia Washington]

I think the author thinks she's vulnerable in sharing her truth, because. How disappointed were you that the acknowledgment for, like, half a page?

[Chelsea Devontes]

I'm so disappointed. I said, at least there'll be secrets here. No. No secrets.

[Julia Washington]

No. Because she does talk about in the acknowledgments about how much she gave of herself to write this book. And I was like, I feel like you are not the friend to sit in a car after an event when I'm dropping you off and we're having the deepest heart to heart. Like, I don't think that exists for her. Maybe she.

[Chelsea Devontes]

She didn't grow up with girlfriends like that. Maybe she.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah, and that's. Yeah, and that's. You know, But I feel like she felt like she was being vulnerable. And. And that's. I have to accept that she felt like she was being vulnerable, and I

[Chelsea Devontes]

have to accept that she felt like she was being vulnerable, and I have to accept that. Great. And I'm gonna say she felt like she was being vulnerable, and I do not accept. Do not memoir unless you want a memoir, baby. Do not memoir unless you will memoir. I gotta tell you, for two of those chapters, the Boy is Mine chapter and the Boys II Men chapter, I think it was absolutely worth it, and I give her it all for those two chapters. So I'm so glad the book came out. But, yes, I think she held a lot back. Okay, second question. Was it entertaining to read?

[Julia Washington]

I think the chapters that we really honed in on were, like, the Boy to Men chapter, the verses chapter. There's a Third one. It obviously made a great impact because I can't remember the title of it. Those chapters, I was riveted, right? Like, oh my gosh, like, this is insane. But I think, you know, I'm gonna stand by my. It plateaued for me. And then it got to the point where it's like, I gotta finish this book.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. I gotta tell you, I had a great time. I had a great time. But I did come off Eliza Minnelli's memoir, which was just like no structure for 400 pages. And so just having a well structured. Each chapter ends with. You won't believe what happened next. I was. I was having a great time. Okay, final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

[Julia Washington]

I think that for me, I appreciate the nostalgia she gave me to live in, because I am having experiences in life from like, man, I would love to be able to go back to like 1996 and just be sitting in my aunt's house and we're all just doing our hair. That would heal me. So I appreciate having that unique experience of being a 90s kid and like an older millennial 90s kid sort of captured in that way. Cause it's like we didn't really experience the 90s as teenager, but I lived it through my teenager siblings. So there was something very like full circle about it and comforting. But I didn't learn anything new about myself. And that's something that I want when I read.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Absolutely, yes, listen. Absolutely, absolutely. I am going to say I was almost a no. But then there was one piece of this that I'm gonna read that elevated my life because it helped me understand some other people in my life who infuriated me. And reading this is felt like reading inside their mind. And she said I had been so afraid of failure that I would have done anything to keep going forward. I stopped trusting my instincts and second guessed myself because I wanted to please whatever label was giving me the opportunity to do music. In therapy. I later learned that I had been moving through life in a state called learned helplessness, which happens after a person is repeatedly be exposed to negative or stressful situations. My therapist explained it like this. This is a tough metaphor. Imagine a dog repeatedly getting shocked in a cage and not being able to escape after over and over, they might stop trying to find a way out, even if the cage door suddenly opened. And I think viewing learned helplessness in someone else can be excruciating. But hearing it from inside her mind, I think explains a Lot of her decisions and a lot of because she seems so powerful and so successful and I think it explains a lot of the book as well. Like this fear to tell the story.

[Julia Washington]

Yeah. I'd be curious what she would be vulnerable and open and willing to say in another 20 years.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I totally agree. I think we could get another memoir in 20 years. Julia, this was so divine. Now that we finished the episode, I say yes, it was a psychic moment that you were the guest. I knew it. And before you go, we got to tell the cookies that our, our limited edition glamorous trash merch candles are coming back. Julia hand pours them and makes them our psychic moment candle. And our my higher power is finding a woman who's down to fuck some shit up. Candles are going to be available for sale again on April 28th. You can find them in Julia's shop link. We will also be linking them on the socials and on the Patreon and in upcoming episodes. But on April 28th you can buy glamorous trash candles again just in time to get one for Mother's Day for your mother or for yourself or for a mother, you know, or just, you know, for a random man to let him know to have a nice psychic moment day or to let him know that your higher power is finding another woman who is down to some up, maybe with a little note that says found one. So watch out. I don't know, I don't know what's going on in your lives, but those are going to be available April 28th on Julia's shop. And Julia, please tell, tell everyone where they can find you.

[Julia Washington]

You can find me on Instagram as the Julia Washington. There are hyperlinks in my profile there that will take you to everything, to take you to pros and glow, take you to the book club, all the things. And then on patreon, it's just patreon.com Julia Washington. And yeah, like Chelsea plugged at the top. You can subscribe to the book club candle. You get the candle every month straight to your door. It comes with a brief description of the book to encourage you to read because we love reading here. And yeah, sometimes I throw in extra goodies if I've got extra goodies. And I just, it's my favorite thing in the entire world to make, so please let me share it with you.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And every candle is hand poured by Julia herself. It's all like organic and good stuff and curated and support small, powerful lady businesses.

[Julia Washington]

Yes, everything is hand poured. Everything is in small batches and I do that on purpose to make sure that the quality is there.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Thank you so much for doing this podcast with me and we will see you all again soon. A big thank you to our senior Managing producer, Christina Lopez, our Executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing Associate producer, Dominique Banas. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and Quints. We will link those incredible brands in the show notes, so go check them out. Everything is always linked in the show notes on Apple. There's also transcripts and if you ever have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.