Documentary Book Club: Martha on Netflix (with Jo Feldman)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Documentary Book Club: Martha on Netflix (with Jo Feldman)
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Jo Feldman
Release Date: December 24, 2024

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Introduction

In this special episode of Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast, host Chelsea Devantez teams up with longtime friend and frequent guest Jo Feldman to delve into the Netflix documentary Martha. Deviating from their usual focus on celebrity memoirs, this episode explores Martha Stewart’s life through a documentary lens, offering a nuanced portrait that captures both her glamour and the underlying complexities of her persona.

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Discussion of Martha Stewart's Personality and Public Perception

Chelsea opens the discussion by highlighting the unique appeal of the Martha documentary, noting that Martha's control over her narrative is somewhat loosened, allowing for a more authentic portrayal.

• Chelsea Devontez [00:57]: “...it feels like her telling her story.”

Jo reflects on her personal takeaways, expressing a love for Martha's ability to build an empire from nothing, despite her unlikable traits.

• Jo Feldman [06:32]: “From just a woman's perspective of watching it, I was like, fuck, yeah. Martha Stewart, she built an empire, and she did it from nothing.”

The conversation underscores Martha's meticulous nature and perceived lack of self-awareness, which contributes to her complex public image.

• Chelsea Devontez [11:01]: “...she really lacks self-awareness and social awareness, but also is extremely astute in her judgments and her precision of process and order.”

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Martha Stewart's Personal Life: Marriage, Divorce, and Relationships

The duo delves into Martha’s tumultuous personal life, particularly her marriage to Andy and subsequent divorce due to his infidelity.

• Jo Feldman [21:57]: “...and then she rewatch it with purpose. Honestly, my takeaway from it was like, I love her, and I would never want to work with or near her.”

They discuss Martha’s early marriage, the impact of Andy’s betrayal with her former assistant, and the emotional fallout from these events.

• Chelsea Devontez [17:09]: “She gets married at 19 to the first man she ever sleeps with. Andy.”

Jo humorously contrasts Martha’s severe reaction to infidelity with her own, highlighting Martha’s aggressive stance.

• Jo Feldman [22:44]: “...when someone has to vehemently say that it's like rare for them to be doing something...”

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Business Acumen: Kmart Collaboration and Being the Original Influencer

Chelsea and Jo explore Martha's pioneering role in influencer marketing, particularly her collaboration with Kmart, which positioned her as the original influencer by bridging high-end aesthetics with mass-market accessibility.

• Chelsea Devontez [16:43]: “...she sees dollar signs, she sees gaps in the market...`

Jo draws parallels between Martha’s strategies and modern social media influencers, emphasizing her foresight and business acumen.

• Jo Feldman [37:07]: “Martha Stewart was the original influencer because she was showing you how she lives, how you should live, and giving you products to live and influencing you how to live.”

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Martha Stewart's Time in Prison and Its Impact

The podcast addresses Martha Stewart’s five-month prison stint for insider trading, discussing how it humanized her and altered public perception.

• Chelsea Devontez [54:08]: “...she was like, this is weird and gross and horrifying...”

Jo reflects on the emotional toll and resilience Martha demonstrated during and after incarceration.

• Jo Feldman [58:09]: “...she is a person. She's crying, she's home.”

They emphasize how Martha's vulnerability during this period contributed to renewed public empathy and admiration.

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Comparisons to Modern Influencers and Trad Wives

A significant portion of the discussion contrasts Martha Stewart with contemporary influencers and the "trad wife" movement, debating similarities and differences in their influence on women’s lifestyles and societal expectations.

• Jo Feldman [38:22]: “...like traditional values, meaning, like, cook everything from scratch...”

Chelsea counters by highlighting Martha’s continued business endeavors and independence, distinguishing her from traditional homemaker stereotypes.

• Chelsea Devontez [43:32]: “...the difference is Martha was doing that. She was selling a lifestyle while not adhering to the traditional trad wife mold.”

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The Documentary's Unique Style and Effectiveness

Chelsea and Jo analyze the documentary’s stylistic choices, particularly the decision to focus solely on Martha’s perspective by using only her on-screen presence and overlaying audio from other interviews.

• Jo Feldman [64:38]: “...for someone like Martha, who is a singular brand whose whole thing is about her...”

They appreciate how this approach maintains focus on Martha, allowing viewers to form opinions based solely on her narrative and actions.

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The Dict/Duckdill Test

Towards the end, Chelsea introduces the "Dictal Test" to evaluate the documentary, posing three questions to Jo:

1. Was the person in the documentary vulnerable in the sharing of their truth?

   • Jo Feldman [68:20]: “Yes, definitely.”

2. Was it entertaining to watch?

   • Jo Feldman [68:50]: “Yeah, definitely.”

3. Did watching this documentary elevate your life in any way?

   • Jo Feldman [69:08]: “It made me want to try my hand at a little more domesticity.”

Chelsea shares her reflections on how Martha's resilience and facing of hardships inspire her own personal and professional endeavors.

• Chelsea Devontez [72:58]: “...facing hardship was like her marriage breaking up... going to prison was the worst thing that could have ever happened for her...”

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Concluding Thoughts

The episode concludes with Chelsea and Jo reiterating their admiration for Martha Stewart’s complex persona and enduring influence. They acknowledge the documentary's role in reshaping their views on resilience, vulnerability, and the construction of personal brands.

• Jo Feldman [73:49]: “Thank you so much...”

They encourage listeners to engage with the content thoughtfully, reflecting on how Martha's journey intersects with broader societal narratives.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jo Feldman [00:48]: “Now the kingdom awaits.”
• Chelsea Devontez [05:27]: “I handed her a lipstick, and apparently that was wrong.”
• Jo Feldman [07:49]: “Very unlikable.”
• Chelsea Devontez [09:22]: “Which is like, you know, a true way to know that Martha would just hate me, even though I'm over here praising her.”
• Jo Feldman [22:44]: “I was like, if you're ever in a marriage with a guy who's cheating on you, fuck that guy.”
• Chelsea Devontez [37:07]: “...she was the original influencer because she was showing you how she lives, how you should live...”
• Jo Feldman [58:28]: “We love a woman failing. And we love resilience.”
• Chelsea Devontez [72:58]: “...facing hardship was like her marriage breaking up while she's putting a weddings book out...”

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Conclusion

This episode of Glamorous Trash offers an in-depth exploration of Martha Stewart’s multifaceted life through the lens of the Netflix documentary. Chelsea and Jo provide a balanced mix of critique, admiration, and personal reflection, making it a compelling listen for both fans and newcomers interested in the intersections of celebrity, personal struggle, and business acumen.

Transcript

[Chelsea Devontez]

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[Jo Feldman]

Now the kingdom awaits.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a celebrity memoir podcast where we dig into all of the glamour and all of the trash. If you have ever referenced Mariah Carey in therapy, then this might be the podcast for you. I'm your host, Chelsea Devontez. I am a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And this week we are book clubbing a documentary. That's right, we're not doing a memoir per se this episode. We're doing a bit of a different episode. We had to move our schedule around. We had a book set for this slot and something came up. So I held a poll asking the cookies what should fill this brand new slot. And the members of this book club overwhelmingly asked for a Martha Stewart documentary to be discussed and listen. It's like a memoir. A good documentary gives you all the things you want from a memoir. And also Martha is in this documentary. She's doing the interviews so it, it feels like her telling her story. And so I'm excited to do something a little different. And much like our memoir in the music episode, if you like it, let us know, we can do more. And if not, you know, we'll stick to the memoirs, which we very much love. His will. Now, if you want to be included on polls and vote and stuff and a part of the community, make sure you join the Patreon. That's where you get ad free listening bonus episodes every month of extra books and a community of, I'm gonna say amazing people. And I just. That's fully unbiased. It's just fact. A community of amazing people who all want to chat and, you know, do stuff together. And Patreon will connect to your Spotify or Apple Feeds. You get all the bonus episodes just like normal ad free listening or just, you know, subscribe on Apple now. This Martha Stewart documentary is titled Martha. It came out on Netflix a month or so ago. It features interviews with Martha herself, like I said, but it was made by RJ Cutler, who is like a celebrity documentarian and something very essential that makes this documentary so good and why I think so many people requested us to discuss it is that RJ had the final say over this documentary and crafting what went into it. He signed off on everything not Martha. And so many documentaries like Taylor Swift's J. Los Ariana's David Foster's, like, those people are the EPs on their own vulnerable documentary. So, you know, it's very contained. They're really choosing the the vulnerability that's being shown or crafting the vulnerability. And I think our discussion on this Martha documentary will prove that her not having the final say is kind of what makes the documentary so good, because it is a very nuanced portraits. So let's dive in to everything we know about the legend Martha Stewart. She was preposterously perfect. Perfect little pattern, perfect, perfect things that look fabulous.

[Jo Feldman]

But are they young women? Listen to my advice. If you're married and your husband starts to cheat on you, he's a piece of shit. Get out of that marriage. Didn't you have an affair early on? Yeah, but I don't think Andy ever knew about that. I'm strict and I'm demanding and I'm all those good things that make a.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Successful person in the business world.

[Jo Feldman]

That's a great trait for a man.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But for a woman, you know, she was a bitch.

[Jo Feldman]

All of that did inspire me tremendously.

[Chelsea Devontez]

My guest today has been my friend since I was 20 years old when we, you know, shared family secrets on a porch. You know her as the guest on the Carnie Wilson episode, which is a great one to listen to this time of year. She was also our guest on the third Gilmore Girl episode and the Scandival episode. Joe, you might be the person who's been on this podcast the most. It's Jo Feldman.

[Jo Feldman]

Hi. Oh, my gosh. Do I get a prize?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, I'll give you a prize. The prize is I will bring you a snack next time I see you all by the Taco Bell.

[Jo Feldman]

Oh, that's good. I'm going to start having a Pavlovian response to you like my child does, which is when she sees Auntie Chelsea, she asks what you brought for her.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, it was tough Because I was definitely plying her with gifts. It was a strategy. But then one time, I showed up without a gift. And so, y'all, I reached into my purse thinking, like, what can I give this child who needs a gift from me in exchange for love? Which I'm absolutely willing to do. And I. I handed her a lipstick, and apparently that was. That was wrong.

[Jo Feldman]

You handed her, like, a bright red lip paint.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's right.

[Jo Feldman]

A lip.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It was like a. Yeah, lip stain.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah. And I. And then I. I said to her, you're not keeping that. And she was like, why? Auntie Chelsea wants me to have it. And I was like, no, she doesn't.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I mean, she does. But I was not really taking into account, you know, that that type of gift should come when she's, like, 10.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah, I should have mailed that back to you. I don't know where that is. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. What's the appropriate age for ruby red lipstick?

[Chelsea Devontez]

I don't know. Maybe five. Man.

[Jo Feldman]

Let's hear from the listeners.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But, like, in a feminist way. Yeah. Listen, y'all want to weigh in on the polls? Leave a comment. So, Jo, I reached out to you to do this episode because I just miss chatting with very, very, very close best, best, best friends sometimes on this podcast.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And I was like, I just want to talk about it with someone I love dearly. And so I was like, hey, have you watched this? And you were like, in all caps. Yes, I have watched this. So, overall thoughts? What did you think about the Martha Stewart documentary? And then I took, like, two pages of notes that I think we should go through.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah, I can't wait to go through your notes, because I watched it not for the podcast, so I watched it in my natural state, which is 2.5 milligrams of THC. Yeah. After bedtime while playing stupid games on my phone. But I. But then I rewatched it with purpose. Honestly, my takeaway from it was like, I love her, and I would never want to work with or near her. But, like, from just a woman's perspective of watching it, I was like, fuck, yeah. Martha Stewart, she built an empire, and she did it from nothing.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. I feel like there was a long time in history where even when she was beloved or popular, there was this ick of like, oh, she's uppity and whatever. Right?

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And yes, there's been, like, the Snoop Dogg era and her talk show era and, like, the post prison era, but it was really this documentary that Showed all these, I'm gonna say unlikable sides to her. That really showed them. That made her so likable. I wrote this is the theme. We love an unlikable woman. Like, screw everyone out there giving notes of, like, well, she won't be likable then, because Martha's very unlikable.

[Jo Feldman]

Very.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And I love it.

[Jo Feldman]

Very unlikable. Well, it's interesting. Cause I watched it the first time alone, and I was, like, emotional and feminist. Woo. And then I watched it with my husband, and he was like, couldn't believe her. He, like, couldn't believe her answers for things. He, like, was so. He was, like, so shocked and scandalized by her in a way that I wasn't.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah.

[Jo Feldman]

Like, not. Not that we need the male gaze, but, like, I was. It was interesting to watch him be like, I can't believe her. And I was like, oh, I believe her. Like, let her go. Let her be a little freak.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, we believe. We know. Deep inside, we know.

[Jo Feldman]

We know what she. She's saying everything on the inside. She's saying what we all want to say.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jo Feldman]

My favorite thing about the whole. Well, I have a few things, but the camera stays on her for so long after she finishes saying what she thinks is a sane thought.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes. It catches her humanness.

[Jo Feldman]

It catches her be like, oh, oh, wait, was that not right?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Move on, move on.

[Jo Feldman]

Next question. Yeah, she's. It was beautifully done.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So just jumping right in. I love how he starts the documentary, which is like, what are some things you dislike? Which, you know, every week on my Instagram, I'm going through someone's 25 things in us Weekly and judging their judgments. Like, I love Just a listicle. A quick synopsis of your personality.

[Jo Feldman]

They had 100 things.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And some of them were like, the color red. I don't put that in my garden.

[Jo Feldman]

The color purple.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, the color purple for a while.

[Jo Feldman]

But when something pops up red in the garden, we get rid of it. Because I don't want. I don't want to see that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Which is like, you know, a true way to know that Martha would just hate me, even though I'm over here praising her. But one thing I found fascinating is that one of the things she says in the beginning of the documentary is that she hates when people are unnecessarily mean. And throughout the documentary, there's going to be multiple accounts of people being like, she is very mean. She's mean.

[Jo Feldman]

They showed her being mean, then they.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Showed her being mean. Yeah. And it. It's Specifically, the word mean is used. And I thought, this is so funny. Either she thinks, yes, but it's necessary. I'm being mean because it's necessary because you're messing up. Or she has one of those weird things in people that I clock every time I see it on this podcast of people who, like, say a thing out loud that they don't like. The number one thing they don't like, and you're like, that's you.

[Jo Feldman]

It's always the thing when someone has to vehemently say that it's, like, rare for them to be doing something or they're not the type of person that normally does the thing they're actively doing. When someone's like, I'm not a big drinker. It's just this weekend it's like, I'm actually not a big drinker. And I don't ever have to say that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, that's right. Yeah, I completely agree. It's like this weird, Like. Yeah. When you're pushing a theme just a little too hard, my friend, the lady.

[Jo Feldman]

Doth protest too much.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's right. That's right. Which is something I would go back in time and say to my stepdad every time he said to us, if anything ever happened to me and your mother, I'd give her the shirt off my back. And then that motherfucker literally took the plastic pens under our plants. So I learned that lesson early, and now every time it pops up, it really makes me laugh.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah, I guess that should have been implied. You don't need to say that. If you treated our mom like a queen.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah, you. I don't. Why did you say that so many times before the ragingly horrific divorce? But yes, on Martha, she doesn't like the color red, and she doesn't like when people are mean. And then 50 people are going to have firsthand accounts of how she was mean. She really lacks self awareness and social awareness, but also is extremely astute in her judgments and her precision of process and order. And I thought that was a really funny personality to see.

[Jo Feldman]

100%. I mean, because it is like, there's a moment where you see her criticizing someone cutting citrus in her kitchen, and she's like, why are you using a small knife?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, she goes, well, isn't that a stupid knife?

[Jo Feldman]

Isn't that. She says stupid, and then she is being so mean to this woman, and then she's showing her how to do it. She goes, see, you just get so. It's just. You have to be efficient.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You need a Big knife for a big orange.

[Jo Feldman]

It's. This is often what we say to our toddler, which is, your message is getting lost in your mess. Like, there's just a nicer way to say that. Now what my takeaway is, you're a bitch. Not like, oh, I should always use a bigger knife when I'm cutting a navel orange.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And she turns to the cameraman, and I actually think this was older footage that she provided, or so it wasn't.

[Jo Feldman]

She gave. She gave them.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, she gave them this footage. And she turns to who? Whoever's filming her at that point. And it's like, you're not gonna get this on camera. Thank you. And then that very skillful cameraman turns and pretends to be getting footage of the pool while writing audio on the whole situation. So I found that to be really interesting. Let's dive into the very beginning of the documentary, which goes through her childhood where she is raised by a very mean father who she adores. And she's like, I was clearly the favorite and I loved that for me.

[Jo Feldman]

She also says that he started every day with a cup of coffee and red wine and then said, I don't know. Do you call that an alcohol alcoholic?

[Chelsea Devontez]

She. She wasn't sure. Genuinely. Yeah.

[Jo Feldman]

She was like, me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

What do we think about a coffee wine combo? Because on its surface, that feels like a potholder. That's like, for me, like, it's like I start my day with espresso and pinot. But it sounds gross.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah, I was gonna say, I. I could see you doing it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, I could see me doing it. Except for when I picture the taste that it does sound gross. Like, I've heard of, like, wine and like a Coke.

[Jo Feldman]

You've heard of it or you drank it when we lived on cruise ships.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, yeah, the second one. But, yeah. And then, you know, it's not bad. It's a pretty good way to cut wine, but I didn't know you could do that with coffee. And then her mom is somewhat of a stay at home mom and an incredible cook. But then also her mom goes to work and she kind of lightly notes that she learned everything she knew about gardening from her father. And while her brothers are scarred from gardens for life because of how mean their dad was to them about precision in the garden, Martha's like, I love it and I love gardens. And her mom, she says she learns how to cook from her. What's funny is that, like, that was kind of the only place where you, like, did she learn all of that shit about how to do stuff from her childhood.

[Jo Feldman]

I was wondering that through the entire movie because I was like, but how does she know how to do, like a turkey that's in a puff pastry? When she was explaining how to cut back all of her plants to her gardeners for the winter? Clearly she learned by doing it. Like, she learned with Turkey Hill with her first house. Like, she learned so much. But I feel like even the way she, she describes herself when she first goes to college as being really chic, the way she dresses, which is like, ha, ha. If you think about you and me in college and like, you and me now, go ahead. Yeah, like, true. Like, just like, you're just like, she has some sort of innate thing that I think drove her to be like, I am the best. I will figure it out.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, yeah, but even that, I'm like, did you, did you not know how and you taught yourself? Because, I mean, YouTube didn't exist and Martha Stewart magazine didn't exist. Like, where would you get the. Like, you are the person who came up with where we get the info.

[Jo Feldman]

I mean, she said the way, she said the way my mother would effortlessly pull out extra settings at the table when there were more guests. I was like, oh, like, these are things, like, I don't even think about.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, and she comes from a really humble working class background, so she has always, like, chic is not a word that, like, goes hand in hand with, like, growing up poor. So, like, this is something of her own making. And she quickly, when her dad is struggling, she gets work as a model. And I thought to myself, like, is there anything, is there anything more powerful than a woman who is modeling for practicality, like a blue collar model? Like, well, seem pretty enough, let's go get a paycheck and bring it home for being the most beautiful woman in the city. I was like, whoa, yeah, that's Martha Stewart. She is a model because it's realistic.

[Jo Feldman]

To send it back home to the younger siblings too. She's not living there anymore. She's supporting her family while she's gone.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And I just thought like, oh, that's incredible. She began as a model, which is the thing. Everyone is like, isn't that so stupid? Or whatever? And like, our first female billionaire, self made. Started as a model. I loved it.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah, it's not relatable.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It's not relatable. You know what's also not relatable? When she pivots from modeling, she becomes a stockbroker.

[Jo Feldman]

Insane.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like working on Wall street when they did not have bathrooms for women on Wall Street. And on top of that, she's a model, so you can only imagine the multitude of ways misogyny came at her. Probably just so confused. Every day, you know, they want to sexually harass her, but also they want to talk down to her. Yeah.

[Jo Feldman]

That had to be so embarrassing for all the men she worked with to.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Know that, like, she saw them.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah. And that she was like, I don't need to be here. I'm actually kind of too hot to be here. But I'll be. Why not?

[Chelsea Devontez]

I'm smarter than you.

[Jo Feldman]

Married with a. Oh. And she was married with a baby at that point, too. I mean, if you want to really. If you really hate parenting and especially young children, you do go get a job that's 80 hours a week because she. She not home for that kid.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's right. So she gets married at 19 to the first man she ever sleeps with. Andy. And what I love about Martha is she is horny. She was horny then. She's horny now. That woman is a horny woman. And it's showing, and I love it. Like, she was just like, oh. She's literally like, he was aggressive in bed. And you get kind of nervous when.

[Jo Feldman]

She said he was aggressive in bed. I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, no.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. You're like, oh, what? And she's like, and I loved it, so I married him. You're like, oh, yeah. Okay.

[Jo Feldman]

So bizarre. And. And that she went home and told her dad, and her dad was like, absolutely not. He's a Jew. And she was like, whatever. I'm still gonna marry him. And you're like, it's painting a clearer picture of the dad.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And she was like, yeah, he was a bigot. So.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So I knew he would say that.

[Jo Feldman]

Incredible. Incredible to describe someone as a bigot with no judgment and incredible to grow.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Up with a bigot and not be one yourself. Like, usually that shit sinks in, you know? Like, I believe what Daddy believes, and she just knew he was wrong.

[Jo Feldman]

Especially for someone who seems to have really valued her dad's judgment.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah.

[Jo Feldman]

Interesting. Very interesting.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Very interesting. And she has a child, one daughter. And very clearly stated in the documentary. They're like, yeah, she didn't like it. Didn't like being a mom, didn't like being a parent. Didn't take to it naturally. Didn't show her a lot of love. So let's talk about the daughter, Alexis, who has given quotes to the press saying, like, we've always Had a very difficult relationship. But also in the documentary, is said to have, like, fainted when her mom goes to prison and be by her side. And so it seems very push and.

[Jo Feldman]

Pull and that she was the one that told her mom go to the Hamptons after the divorce. And she took her mom's side in her parents divorce.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Yeah. So fascinating.

[Jo Feldman]

They must have had a better situation as she got older. But, like, hey, parenting young kids is not for everyone. That's not why you have a kid.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I also really liked showing a woman on screen who was like, yeah, I just assumed, like, being a mother would come naturally to me, and it did not. And it never arrived. And I think the idea that, like, being a mother, being a father, being a parent is gonna come naturally to you. Like, it's not the case for everyone. It was very cool to see. I obviously, like, hope the best for her daughter. You're sad for her daughter, but you're, like, happy for her to be showing this side of, like. Yeah, it was really hard.

[Jo Feldman]

Totally important also to think that she probably had her when she was 20 or 21. Like, that's so. It's so young.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Wait, Very young.

[Jo Feldman]

Also, her honeymoon. Can we talk about her honeymoon?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, please.

[Jo Feldman]

She goes on her honeymoon. Well, there's two things that I think are the great takeaways from the honeymoon. The first thing is she goes on her honeymoon and she writes down every single thing she eats in Europe. They go to Europe. She's writing down every dish, every site. She's, like, so overcome by all the culture. She's like.

[Chelsea Devontez]

She's writing a magazine.

[Jo Feldman]

She's literally like. I was like, she is a nightmare version of girl who studies abroad and comes home.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah. So true.

[Jo Feldman]

And just takes everything she learned and makes a billion dollars by using someone else's culture to whatever. But that's literally what she does. But the thing that's also interesting is she's, you know, on her honeymoon with her Jewish husband and she wants to go see a cathedral. And he's like, I'll hang back at the hotel, obviously. And she goes. And she's overwhelmed by the beauty of it that she kisses a stranger.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And the documentarian is like, so that's like infidelity, though. And she's like, no, no. It was an emotional cathedral kiss with a man. I didn't know. It wasn't cheating on my honeymoon.

[Jo Feldman]

It wasn't cheating. I wish this for every single person in the world to experience now.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You know what's really fascinating is that I was just doing a little extra research for this, and I was looking up her catering partner, which led me to a Daily Mail article. And I want to state on record, the Daily Mail can suck my fucking ass. I. God, they're such pieces of trash.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And they've done articles on women I know and love who are dear friends of mine that were just horrific, and they did one on me. However, I'm sad to say that this is where this information comes from. In that article, there was a story of a man who had written a book on Martha who stated that one of the stories from their honeymoon is that she and her husband went out for drinks and met a very handsome Englishman, and her husband wanted to go to bed, and she was like, well, I'm going out. And they went out together and she doesn't come home till 4 in the morning. And when he asked her where she was, she says, we went to a cathedral.

[Jo Feldman]

Oh, that's very different.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's very different. And now. And what's tough is it's like that doesn't come from a trustworthy source. They were quoting a book within the Daily Mail, and I think they always, like, spin it to be horrible. So it's hard. But I think we're looking at two possibly untrustworthy sources.

[Jo Feldman]

Can we fast forward her marriage a little bit?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, please. Yeah.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah. So her marriage ends because her husband cheats on her continuously as she rises, and then ultimately with her former assistant who is living on her property, her former floral assistant, her floralist. And of all people, if you can imagine a greater betrayal, I'd be shocked. So the florist and her husband run off together, she gets divorced, and she's basically like, fuck this guy. He's so horrible. If you're ever in a marriage with a guy who's cheating on you, fuck that guy. Fuck, fuck, fuck that guy. Horrible man. And then the person interviewing her is like, didn't you have affairs? And she's like, oh, well, he didn't know. And she. And they were like, no, no, he didn't know. He said you had told him and he didn't start cheating on you until he found out about your affair. She's like, oh, he did? He said that?

[Chelsea Devontez]

She's like, I don't think that's right.

[Jo Feldman]

That's not.

[Chelsea Devontez]

No.

[Jo Feldman]

I mean. Oh, there was an Irishman, but it was like the same as the cathedral kiss. It's like, it's not even. It's not worth breaking up a marriage for. And you're just like, which Is. Oh, the window into Martha is like, she definitely lies. Like, she definitely lies.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You could tell she was like, yeah, let's sleep with other people, but stay married.

[Jo Feldman]

Stay married. My God, I'm not with my floralist, for Christ's sake.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, and I think the difference is that Andy goes on to marry the flower lady.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So I think for her there was, like, embarrassment and betrayal. Whereas, like, I was just fucking that Irishman. Like, that's different.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah. She was, like, fucking an Irish stockbroker. You don't have to take it so serious. Seriously.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And. And I think the Where. Where that guy asking the questions of, like. Well, no, he did know that you were. He knew that you had cheated first and then he started cheating. Is coming from the same book I'm referencing.

[Jo Feldman]

Ah, okay.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That was being referenced in the Daily Mail where the florist lady went on record saying, Martha would always say, you and Andy would be so cute together. You guys should just get together again. It's like, wait, where's the truth in this?

[Jo Feldman]

It's so interesting.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I feel like Martha would be down to swing.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, I feel like she must have had pass your keys around key parties. Like, I feel like she just didn't like that he divorced her.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah. Yeah. And made a fool of her. And because of the whole brand.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Because of the brand. The brand is perfection.

[Jo Feldman]

Had it lined up with Martha Stewart divorce, then it would have been better. But she was doing Martha Stewart wedding at the time, so she was, like, selling wedding while getting divorced.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Why has she not done Martha Stewart divorce? Would you not buy that in a second?

[Jo Feldman]

Hundred percent Martha Stewart divorce. Why hasn't she done Martha Stewart postpartum? She should be doing.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, my God. Yeah. There's a whole line she has not.

[Jo Feldman]

Cashed in on, which is crazy, because she's published 100 books.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah.

[Jo Feldman]

Literally.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So true.

[Jo Feldman]

She just published her 100th book.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You're so right. Yeah. Well, listen, I bet she could keep going. And I hope she hears this.

[Jo Feldman]

Martha Stewart funerals.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Martha Stewart excommunicated by your children.

[Jo Feldman]

Martha Stewart parental alienation.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Martha Stewart still fucking in the 70s.

[Jo Feldman]

That's so. Yeah. Why hasn't she done one on geriatric sex?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, I. Yeah, Martha Stewart geriatric sex.

[Jo Feldman]

Why doesn't she have, like, a sex toy line?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Ugh. I feel like there's so much ahead of her. Should we apply to work for her?

[Jo Feldman]

The future? No. I'm so scared. I would be so. I'm so scared of her. Watching her talk to people. I'm like, this is terrifying.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I would never survive it. Well, when she talks about her marriage breaking up, it was clearly devastating to her. But she tells the documentarian, she's like, I don't want to talk about it. I'm not going to pity myself. I gave you a bunch of really intimate letters, so go pull from those. She says that? And you're like, that's hilarious. Then they pull lines from these letters, which, by the way, I'm like, how do you have the letters you wrote to Andy? Like, did he send them back to you in a box that he set on fire?

[Jo Feldman]

Like, you know, her ass is so organized that she Xeroxed everybody. She's making copies. Yeah, she Xeroxed. She put it in the file. She put it in the file.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Actually, I like that. Writing a vicious takedown letter, making a copy of it, filing it away in your system, and then mailing it to him with, like, a piece of dog shit.

[Jo Feldman]

Because crazy leaders always have records.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. I mean, cult leaders.

[Jo Feldman]

Especially cult leaders. I mean, is she not a cult leader?

[Chelsea Devontez]

They love a record.

[Jo Feldman]

They love a record.

[Chelsea Devontez]

They love an evidence trailer.

[Jo Feldman]

I mean, and because these letters are bonkers that she.

[Chelsea Devontez]

She bonkers.

[Jo Feldman]

Willingly turned over bonkers letters.

[Chelsea Devontez]

My favorite one is that she's like, I bet you're just going to love taking my money to woo her. And you're going to paint her in the nude. And maybe she is going to paint a nude of you. I would love to see that, Andy. So let's just pause right there, because then there's another line. And the next line is, no one will ever love you like I do. So to go to the first two lines, does she think it's a scathing insult for him to paint a nude of her? Is it an inside joke?

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah. What does it mean?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Why is she saying, I would love to see the nude of you? Is she, like, making fun of him?

[Jo Feldman]

Is she making fun of his penis to see him?

[Chelsea Devontez]

I don't know. Because she loves his penis. She's fully on record about, like, how great he is in bed.

[Jo Feldman]

Oh, yeah. They're like, you're gonna regret this. You're gonna regret this. I'm so in love with you. Please take me back. I will burn your house down.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes. And then the line, no one will ever love you like I do. I was like, oh, she's giving violent male energy here. Like, that is what, like, scorned men try and threaten women with. And. And Martha, which is, like, the thesis.

[Jo Feldman]

Of Martha, which is that she is. The way she conducts herself, the way people didn't like her is because she acted really masculine in business and in her personal life that she was really aggressive and, like, didn't sugarcoat the way that we are taught, like, to email people with, like, hello, sentence with an exclamation point, sentence with a period, sentence with an exclamation point. Then our name, like, that's. She's like, period, period, period, period.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, and I've only put one period in that email because I. I deleted the exclamation point that I had previously put that.

[Jo Feldman]

It's very hard.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It's very hard. You know, so it's so fascinating because, yeah, I think it's like, oh, she's acting like a man, which, of course, like, infuriates men. Or was it that she was successful and then that was attributed to masculine, like, qualities? Or I got a note on my Instagram when I was asking, like, what should I make sure we talk about in this episode? And someone wrote in that neurodiversity is a superpower, especially with successful people. And what's tough about that is that, like, Martha hasn't been diagnosed as that.

[Jo Feldman]

Right.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Or nor has she spoken about it. This is people watching the documentary and saying, so. And listen, who is someone who has no right to speak on anyone's health? A woman with a podcast. Like, I have no. There's nothing I can say here other than to say that, like, lots of people seem to recognize themselves in her, but basically looking at, like, how she's operating and thinking, like, they recognize as, quote, unquote normal and that being key to her success.

[Jo Feldman]

Right. I was thinking about her upbringing and that amount of children and a cold father. And your time with your mother is spent while she is frantically cooking what she said was 16 meals a day for siblings and wondering, like, how she could have possibly felt, loved, nurtured, cared for, and how she pulls herself out of that situation. Puts herself in a marriage, which is also interesting because she didn't put herself in a marriage to have financial security because she secured her finances continuously through her life. But she doesn't seem to, except for Andy in the beginning, she doesn't seem to have, like, a mushy emotional capacity for much. She doesn't. Even when she says, like, she's dating, she's like. And she says, I don't care about how you're feeling. I want to know what you're thinking about.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, yeah, but even worse, she's like, I don't care what he's feeling. Oh, what are you feeling? I don't care. I don't care. I'd like to know what you're thinking about, but, like, ugh, your feelings. And then she goes, maybe that's why I haven't had a lot of relationships. Anyways, next question.

[Jo Feldman]

The camera stays on her, and you just see for like a second, like, the clock ticking in her head. She's like, I can't. I have to tell you, I've been. I've been in a marriage with a man for about a decade, and I don't want to know what he's thinking about ever. The idea of, like, looking over at my husband and being like, tell me what you're thinking about. Like, what's a new interesting idea?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, you have two kids. So if he doesn't answer, like, well, I was thinking of how I would, you know, take care of said kid.

[Jo Feldman]

You'll be like, when you have two. When you have two young kids, if you hear that your husband had brain space to think about something, it just fills you with absolute rage that he wasn't all, like, doing something for the family. You're like, you had time to think about a new idea, a fresh idea today. Fuck.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Fuck.

[Jo Feldman]

I was making doctor's appointments.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, see, so you can actually. You're at one with Martha.

[Jo Feldman]

I want to. I don't want to know what you're feeling or what you're thinking. I want to know what you did for the family today. I guess I'm Martha. Yeah, I guess I run our house. Like Martha Stewart Living.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Martha Stewart survival. Baby, we're out here trying to make our days. Yeah, no, it was. It's. It's interesting because, yeah, she really. She doesn't want the marriage to go away and misses him. But also, like, there were some other accounts that she was like, I don't know if you're yelling at the woman about using a better knife with the orange, just imagine the things that were said to Andy. And I don't know Andy's personality. I don't know what he said back, but it's like, I'm sure she was like, this is wrong. And this is wrong. And this is wrong. And this is wrong because that is footage we have of her doing that to everybody because she does things so.

[Jo Feldman]

Well, you know, like, he put his toothbrush down next to the sink instead of in, like, the little toothbrush holder. And she was like, just tore him a new asshole.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Can you imagine Martha Stewart living with me? Like, do you think she'd be in prison again for murder.

[Jo Feldman]

I was thinking about you and Martha while I was watching for my second time. And I was thinking how you and Martha have, I would say that a similar work ethic, but boy, does it show in different ways.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I recognized an insane work ethic, but I was like. And really, you put it into cooking. Fascinating. It is.

[Jo Feldman]

I mean, it is like, I don't even think about how much Martha Stewart has impacted my life. But I remember being like a young person in my apartment cooking for the first time and having to look up like, how do you chop an onion? And you can go, you can do how to chop onion. Martha Stewart. You can do how to hard. You can type hard boiled egg, Martha Stewart. Martha Stewart's website has a tutorial for anything you ever wanted to know about cooking. And it is very resourceful.

[Chelsea Devontez]

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[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. Well, after this divorce, she is 45 years old, and she has to start her life over. Even though she's basically just put out this weddings book, but she's starting her love life over, her home life over, you know, all these other aspects of her life. And I just loved that. I said, oh, my gosh, she hasn't even started what we know is her company yet, right? And she was 45 and in the lowest moment of her life. And after that, she keeps me like I was young and supple and ready to. And Andy just cast me out.

[Jo Feldman]

She does describe herself physically in a way we don't often hear people describe themselves, which I loved. Like, has a hot little. Like a sexy little wave of a thing.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, she was like, I was fucking hot, and I was 45 and I was raring to go, and he just dumped me. Rude. Well, then she starts a Kmart collaboration. They call her the First Influencer. And it is so absolutely true, because she does the product collab. She sees that even though her brand is about kind of like, being fancy and perfect, she sees dollar signs, she sees gaps in the market, she sees that everyone wants this. And she is, quote, unquote, brave enough to partner with Kmart. Because then other these, like, fancy brands that I can't even remember the name of, like, drop her line. She's on this book tour, she's getting divorced, and she has the idea to do her magazine. And she goes to Conde Nast and they don't like the name of it. She goes somewhere else, they say, no. And she goes to Time magazine and she says, because it's called Martha Stewart Living, she said, living is a limitless subject. Living how we live, how we live. And it really. I also watched it twice, but it really hit me that, like, yes, she's the original influencer because she was showing you how she lives, how you should live, and giving you products to live and influencing you how to live. And made a billion dollars. And yet when influencers came around on social media, we still thought of them as stupid idiots and ignored how much money these women were making. And these entrepreneurs in this huge business. I don't know, it's just really throwing me. I'm like, how did we watch Martha do it? And me personally see influencers come about and think that it was stupid, do.

[Jo Feldman]

It all over again. Well. Cause our internalized misogyny is hard to let go of.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I know. I remember in 2012, being like, I would never post on Instagram, look at me now fucking site.

[Jo Feldman]

I will occasionally buy stuff from TikTok shop and be like, I feel so dumb that I, like, got like. And bought this thing that I use every single day.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's exactly what I was gonna say. I have gotten got a few times, but majority of the time, I have found amazing purchases. 100% from influencers.

[Jo Feldman]

From influencers. And Martha, it's when she said, the secret is that I'm the customer. I'm the person I'm doing this for. It's like we're forgetting that while Martha Stewart is a billionaire, Martha Stewart also grew up in a lower class, lower to middle class home in the suburbs in New Jersey. And her parents liked nice things but couldn't afford them and wanted things to look nice. And like, her taking her company to Kmart makes so much sense. Like, she is her customer. She would have been at Kmart. And I remember being at Kmart and seeing her stuff when I was in, like, middle school and being like, this stuff is nice.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Absolutely. I mean, it's. It's so. You're right. The internalized misogyny was very, very strong back then. Is still very strong now. Like, I love. I love getting recommended things from people. I love. I have a newsletter where I recommend products, and I love doing that because they took me so long to, like, find the one. Right. And I want the links, so of course you want the links, I would think. But then I'll still every now and then have this like, oh, my God, is it dumb that I have a newsletter, but I'm also like a writer, you know? And it's like, oh, my God, why, why are we constantly devaluing, I don't know, markets like this, the Martha Stewart of it all. Why are we devaluing this thing that is quantifiably billions of dollars?

[Jo Feldman]

And it's like, no, she's showing us her skill. I do think I mentioned this to you briefly, but, like, while she is the original influencer, I really feel like she's the original trad wife, because I think she's.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Now tell me what you think. Okay. Plead your case. Cause I think I disagree.

[Jo Feldman]

Okay. I think she. Okay. So when I say trad wife, I mean a trad wife influe. So I mean like a Nara Smith or a ballerina farm. I mean someone who is showing traditional values. Meaning, like, cook everything from scratch, grow everything at your house, sew everything that you wear, be a woman, make the house presentable. Your job is the home, but you're selling it to other people, and you're leaving your socioeconomic group more and more every time you sell more and more. The idea of being a homemaker. When you're a homemaker, you don't make money. Your job is unpaid. Your labor is unpaid. When you're home raising your kids, which is arguably the most important job for society, for its civilization to continue, you don't make money, but you spend money. Because you're on your nap break, you're looking at your phone, you're looking at.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Nara, or you're taking care of the.

[Jo Feldman]

Household, you're taking care of the house, and you're listening to Nara or Martha or the ballerina farm lady, Hannah Needleman came back to make. And you're looking at them and you're thinking, like, well, I could make sourdough from scratch. Like, I should make sourdough from scratch. Not even. Like, I could. I should. Like, they have time to do it. They have so many kids. Like, I should do it. Oh, I'm like, I'm never like, look, I don't look nice. They look nice while they're doing it. They have more kids than I do. I should buy this. I should, like, buy the ballerina farm protein powder, because look how skinny she is. And she's had six kids, so I should be able to do that, too. Or like Nara Smith, who's like, my kids have never had Fruit Loops, so I'm making them from scratch out of fruit, like, from the farmer's market.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's real. That's real.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

We should. Okay. She should be in jail for that video alone. Go ahead.

[Jo Feldman]

So you're like, oh, shit, My kids have had processed food. I should be making them food. And so Martha was the original person doing that. She was the original person saying, you have time to do this. And she's saying, but you're a modern woman. So, like, I'm gonna make it easy for you and show you how to do it. I'm gonna put the extra pressure on you to do your work and to also buy all my shit, buy my magazine, buy my stuff at kma. Keep up. You can do it. You can do it. You can do it all. And she's profiting off of women that are doing those things. She was the original person selling the idea of, you can be a woman at home. And also she's getting richer and richer and richer and not being a woman at home. Because when you see those videos, she has a staff cutting up her citrus. She has a staff taking care of her flowers.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I do love that you keep calling oranges citrus. I like this. It's very refined. You keep saying cutting citrus.

[Jo Feldman]

Well, there's so many kinds of citrus.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Sure. Yeah, Yeah.

[Jo Feldman]

I just didn't want to like say that it was an orange if it was a mandarin, you know, I just said.

[Chelsea Devontez]

No, no, I get it, I get it. You're right. No, it was an orange because I just remember her yelling it. Okay. I think you make a really interesting point. I'm weighing it. So I think here's where I would push back in that when Martha really launched her brand, the Kmart collab, the magazine, she's divorced, that's known, she only has one child. And so the, the deferentialness to the man to husband, to having that classic home doesn't exist in her brand. In terms of like a trad wife, like very specific to that is like, you go home, the man will do it. And also we will hide all the people doing our manual labor and pretend it's us who just did it. Where I think what they have in common is like selling you a lifestyle. And I think like the guilt that comes from that when someone is so perfect because Martha's brand isn't, oh, I don't know, glamorous trash where you're a piece of trash. Her brand is perfection. Right. It's like, you can be perfect. You can be perfect. And so I also think with trad wives, like, very specifically, they are trying to have you give up rights, give up economic status, give up your say, especially like where they playing in the political movement. And I think Martha was doing the, you can have more, you can work and do this and host this and do this. And I will say Martha's stuff was like, I want to make it easy for you to host a nine person dinner party with a chicken and a salad or whatever. And tradwise are like, no, you're going to make that motherfucking bread from scratch. Like you are going to knead the dough that creates the Froot Loops, you know. But I do see what you're saying in terms of like the similarities. I think there's an insidiousness to trad wife influencers that, that doesn't exist with Martha.

[Jo Feldman]

Those women are absolutely like Trump supporting Roe, flipping these things. Christian values are very important to them.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, actually both those women, Nara and Ballerina Farm, are Mormon. And they kind of try and pull that out of their brand, which I think is real. They, they really go Blanket Christianity rather than specifying their religion, which is interesting also for anyone who doesn't know Joe and I just have to drop a hot fun fact here which if you follow Ballerina Farm and you don't know that her husband is the son of the man who created JetBlue and they're billionaires and they bought that farm like you know, five years ago.

[Jo Feldman]

Maddening.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And like she has like two nannies. Like it's just stuff you need to know.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah, it's so upsetting. It's so deeply upsetting. Their whole situation is so deeply upsetting.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It really is. Well, on the flip side, Martha, by knowing there is a magazine market here, by knowing that there is a brain tier, by knowing that no one is talking about living, she becomes the first self made billionaire who is a woman. Of course. Is there anything we love more in the world than a very successful woman beloved by all held up on a pedestal? What does society love to do? Oh, kick her in the face. Knock her right off that pedestal.

[Jo Feldman]

Oh yeah, watch her fall.

[Chelsea Devontez]

The higher you can lift her up, the more fun it is to shove her down. And, and what happens, the moments where this can take place is that she is indicted for lying to the FBI because they can't catch her in the actual crime of trading stocks.

[Jo Feldman]

What I thought was really interesting about this was my memory, what year was that that that happened?

[Chelsea Devontez]

So it was 2006 when she was charged with insider trading.

[Jo Feldman]

So we were in college when she goes to prison. And my memory of that was that she went for insider trading. And I felt, yeah, and when I.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Was watching and that she was like a big asshole. A big rich lady asshole. Yes.

[Jo Feldman]

And I'm watching with my husband and he was like I thought she was guilty of insider trading. Like there was a PR spin that the zeit like and the clip they show of them like, like Jay Leno or Letterman making fun of her for like, for insider trading. It was like insider trading and Martha Stewart were synonymous. And she wasn't actually indicted for that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I rem on my first job working with Jon Stewart. One day casually, something had come up and he said something like that was so bullshit what they did to her. And I remember having my mind blown because I had been living with like can you believe she did that? Like the audacity to be so rich. And then blah blah. And I remember him saying that and I was like, wait, what? And it's so thrilling to see it in the documentary laid out for people of just how misogynist it was. And how many people were accused of insider trading on this one stock? But because Martha was a woman and because Martha was famous, the entire case hung on her. And because they couldn't catch her, they brought her in for line. And who. What little turd, diddly fuck pipsqueak comes out to do all this to her, to take her down? James Comey Cray. Crazy now that I had forgotten, knowing that, like, this prick, this. This beast of a prick, he's like 7ft tall, brought down Hillary 10 days before the campaign with bullshit filings and had done the same to Martha.

[Jo Feldman]

What blonde woman hurt you? J. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, let me see photos of your mother.

[Jo Feldman]

Like, let me see photos of your mother.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I gotta see pictures of your mom.

[Jo Feldman]

That was so great. Yes, that was. I was like, wait, this piece of shit. Wait, she didn't. Wait, she did it. And then her. And her. Her friend flipped on her.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, that was now. And that's kind of like when you watch the case. You're like, okay, yeah, she did it, but you guys couldn't catch her.

[Jo Feldman]

She definitely did it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

She definitely did it. It's definitely the type of crime that every single rich person took part in. Takes part in the stock market. I think what is so criminal about the stock market is that this insider trading case and every other insider trading case is probably the least criminal thing in the thousands of criminal things they do every day that they have made legal or have found loopholes for. Like, the stuff they are doing to society as a whole is so fucking fucked. Listen, hot plug for season one of the problem with Jon Stewart, like, it's so messed up. And so to take these tiny little things and hang their hats on them, it's ridiculous. It is still a crime, but it's ridiculous when put into perspective. Okay, why do you think her best friend flipped on her? Now, this is someone. She was the matron of honor in her wedding. She was the godmother to her children.

[Jo Feldman]

I don't know.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And she ratted her up.

[Jo Feldman]

I don't know why she did it. I would like more on their friendship, but I thought what made me sad was. Or the audio they got of the friend. The friend was like, I looked at Martha after I gave that testimony, and I could just tell she was so cold in the eyes that she just never would like me again. And it's like, well, yeah, honey tub, it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You're not. You're not a writer, dad.

[Jo Feldman]

What are you talking about? What are you talking about?

[Chelsea Devontez]

And also, she was like that. That cold, cold Martha. Look it's like, oh, you were looking.

[Jo Feldman]

To flip on her then. Yes. And what did she get for that?

[Chelsea Devontez]

I will say Martha did have a catering partner early on in her catering business, which is kind of what launches is her whole brand. And she did have a partner. Norma has given quotes to the press that when Norma was divorcing her husband, Martha supposedly said, well, you should have sex with Andy. He's great.

[Jo Feldman]

I again need to know more.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I really don't. I really don't know how to fact check this stuff. But Norma was pushed out of the catering business because Martha started booking solo gigs behind her back. So I do get the feeling that Martha, maybe not the best gals gal, maybe she's not the best of friends. That is to people I don't know.

[Jo Feldman]

No, I think you're right. I'm sure she's probably not a great friend. I don't care how you're feeling. I want to know what you're thinking about.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, she probably never once asked Mariana how she was feeling. And she was like, you know what? I'm going to tell everybody you traded stocks. Well, the other amazing part of this piece of the documentary is that she talks about how this journalist from the Post wrote a bunch of crap about her, but luckily she's dead now, so you don't have to read that crap. Okay, so the documentary comes out. That's hilarious. Then Andrea, I forgot her last name, comes out in the Post and is like, I'm alive, bitch. I'm not dead. I'm here. And how dare you? And then she wrote like, it makes me so sad to see, like, how bitter and miserable you were after all these years. So far, that's been the main story I've seen. Jo, can I tell you the third little thing I found that did not get enough play? Yeah, something Martha's like, andrea, I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about Constance Hayes, who died from cancer a year after my trial. God, I hated Constance. Sorry to her family, but I was talking about Constance. I wasn't talking about you. Why do you think I was thinking about you for 15 years?

[Jo Feldman]

I didn't know that. That is so good.

[Chelsea Devontez]

This is where you're at the point where you're like, God, is she just incredible with one upping people, you know what I mean? Like, but also there is a journalist from the Post who wrot a bunch of mean things about her who apparently died. And then Andrea was like, I wrote a bunch of shit about you.

[Jo Feldman]

Poor Andrea.

[Chelsea Devontez]

How dare you say I'm dead.

[Jo Feldman]

And she's like, Andrea real pick me energy for me. I. Yeah. Martha needs to have the high status. She needs to have the upper hand. You're never going to get her. And Martha probably wouldn't have said that about Andrea because she would know. She knows who's dead or alive. She probably keeps the list.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Martha Stewart, living your enemies, dead or alive. Martha Stewart, how to hold a motherfucking grudge. I can tell that she holds one. I'm with revenge. Martha, Steven, Martha Stewart, call everyone you hate dead. I certainly might try doing that. I might try to be like, oh, yeah, but they're dead now.

[Jo Feldman]

I love. I love starting the rumors that people are dead.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, what?

[Jo Feldman]

That's how insignificant you are. Oh, my God. I thought you died.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Wait, you're dead. Oh. Oh, not you. I thought someone else was. I haven't even been thinking of you. Why did you insert yourself? So funny.

[Jo Feldman]

Taking. Stop. Taking this moment. I did think her catering company, we kind of. We kind of skipped over her catering company. But I actually was like, like, very blown away by what she was doing. She was like the first person basically doing, like, charcuterie tables. She was like, the way she. And she described, like, catering as very ephemeral and, like, how that's why she wanted to start writing books, because she wanted, like, to be able to savor the experiences. And, like, she really did. Like, she taught herself how to cook, fix a house, grow a garden, and then then just wanted to teach it to everyone else for the rest of her life.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Meanwhile, in Ina Garden's book, she's writing, like, catering almost ended me, so I had to start a store. But I think for Martha, her, like, precision and leadership and the way she can run a company, like, it really did not weigh on her the way it might have weighed on someone else.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah, I think she's a very effective communicator and manager.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, yeah, effective also, too. Cause she's being like, you're an idiot.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah, she's terrifying. She's getting it done. The best part of the entire documentary is that throughout it, there's footage of her walking her grounds while sending voice notes about what needs to be done to the grounds. And she's doing it all with Siri. So she's, like, walking and she's in leather pants and a puffy vest that are colors. You don't normally see either of those things in, like, autumn. It's bizarre. And she's driving, like, what is a golf cart, but looks like it's probably made by, like, it's like a hammer. It's bizarre. She's walking the beat, holding her phone, going, like, we're gonna have to trim these bushes. Not happy about that. Send. And you just hear the little flink, like, of the iPhone. But my husband said, I would hate to work for her. And I was like, yes, but, like, you'd hate to work for her because you don't like gardening. If you want to learn everything about gardening, you work for Martha Stewart. Like, there's no better person to learn from than her. She is the person you want. You do work hard jobs sometimes, not because you're there to have a good time, but because you want to learn from the best people.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, completely. I think her is a boss. Absolutely. But then there was a quote from the court case where, like, her stockbroker's assistant goes on record, and, like, part of the reason his witness was so compelling is that he talks about her character. And for people in New York, they were like, yeah, that's Martha. But for people in the world, they, like, didn't know this about her. And one of the quotes was her saying, I will take my business elsewhere if you do not change the hold music.

[Jo Feldman]

Such impactful testimony. So good.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So good. Yeah. Okay. So back into the documentary. She goes to prison for five months. And this was, like, back in the time of, like, Paris Hilton in prison. And Martha, where, like, a celebrity woman going to prison, was just, like, the craziest thing you've ever seen.

[Jo Feldman]

Good time for white women in prison.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I found it really touching. I found this part really touching of the way she's like, this is, like, weird and gross and horrifying and, well, I guess I'll learn every day. And, oh, I'll speak at a leadership concert. Oh, you know what? Women want to start businesses. Let me teach them. And then she's like, I found the best craftsman in prison.

[Jo Feldman]

She.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And I got a shawl.

[Jo Feldman]

She got that poncho. She's. Yeah, she got that poncho. When she describes, like, having to do a strip search and how embarrassing it is and how the coffee is horrible and that prison is not a place for rehabilitation. It's not a place where you learn. It's not a place of care. Like, it's actually very important for a voice like Martha Stewart's to talk about prison reform. I don't think she meant to talk about prison reform, but she is. And coming out of prison wearing a shawl that someone made, and then going later on her talk show, they show her in the shawl. And every single audience member, including her dog, wearing the shawl.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Wearing the shawl. Yeah, I think you're so right of like, I think it is a common move for people who've gone to prison to be like, actually, I'll return on the platform of prison reform. And you know what? The more voices out there, the better. But Martha is an incredible one. This actually made me really emotional. Two things she said, she said, I had to fight every day to keep up my self esteem and the conviction that I'm a good person who deserves to live because. And I really did not get the sense that that was something that Martha Stewart struggled with specifically in prison. I read this book in a couple of studies about how people will do anything to not feel shame. Anything. Because it's the worst feeling. And when it comes to prison and prison reform and rehabilitation, if you are like just made to feel shame all the time, you would rather like pick up a gun and shoot someone or enact violence to gain respect, anything to get out of the feeling of shame and that you shouldn't exist. And like that. That's just one example cited.

[Jo Feldman]

If a minimum security prison where you have a relatively short sentence can take the first female billionaire down to questioning whether or not she worthy of being on the earth, then what is it doing for anyone else?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jo Feldman]

That's so true. And it was the first time I was like, oh, she does, like sit with herself. And I think a lot of what we see of her are insane walls, intense walls.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And I think the other part that got me really emotional both times when I watched the documentary were someone kind of states this clearly. But you're also watching it happen, which is that this woman's entire brand was, you can do anything and you are perfect. She's perfect. She's perfectionism. She's a model. And her entire brand is spent on, like, what would society think of you? Give a good party, be a good host. Like, what do people think of you? And the worst thing that could ever happen to a person like that, going to prison. The opposite of perfectionism in high society happened. And because she survived it, she's even better. It set her free. Like facing your worst fear sets you free. This is some Star wars bullshit. This is walk into the cave and pull out the lightsaber and you see yourself, like, facing your worst fear will set you free. And like, it's just incredible because you never want to face your worst fear. But then when you see someone else do it and she becomes the woman we know Today you're like, holy shit.

[Jo Feldman]

Just.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I think it's my religion.

[Jo Feldman]

Her next chapter after leaving prison, when she's like finding her footing also they. And they show her return from prison crying while she's saying to her staff, like, I'm so, I'm just so happy to be here. And you're like, she is a person. She's crying, she's home. And she becomes what is now a very beloved public figure. Whereas before she was extremely criticized. Something about her going to jail and having to go through every day in prison like every other person that has to go to prison somehow humanizes her, somehow makes her more relatable. And it's worked for her.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And surviving this thing, this humiliation that no one wanted her to survive. And she probably. It was very hard. That then makes you love her. You love seeing someone phoenix their ass out of the ashes.

[Jo Feldman]

We love a woman, a woman failing. And we love resilience.

[Chelsea Devontez]

We love resilience. Yeah, absolutely. And we should note that she comes out from prison on her boyfriend's private plane. He sent to get her, but he didn't come and pick her up. He sent the plane, he did not arrive. And I think something that's not spoken about is how many friends Martha lost, especially like fancy friends, including like her boyfriend of 15 years who was clearly embarrassed. And also the rumors. I'm not even gonna say rumors. The something I would say is extremely true is that like Ina Garden defriended her. And so Martha Stewart's like, I'm not gonna comment on that book. She stopped speaking to me when I went to prison. And Ina's like, what? We just lost touch, you know, Even though like Martha platformed to Ina. So I think she. I think she lost a lot of like high society.

[Jo Feldman]

Every time she's lost high society, it's paid in dividends in other ways. When she loses a lot of like her high end contracts when she does Kmart. Kmart makes her a billionaire. And she can buy back her magazine from Time Warner because Kmart helps her like buy it back because she's making them so much money.

[Chelsea Devontez]

No one will give her the money because she is the brand. And the brand is based on a woman, which is then original influencer. She was making money off of being herself a brand tied to her humanity. Okay, so let's talk about this boyfriend really quick, which is, I mean, he's really rich and he's really smart, which I think for Martha you either have to like be super hot, big dick, really smart and really rich, or like, some combination. Because she says they were in bed. And he turns to her and says, hey, just so you know, I'm getting married and I can't talk to you again. And she says, he's getting married to Lisa. I want to know who Lisa is. And secondly, y'all were in bed. What is the timeline on this? Does Lisa know? She knows.

[Jo Feldman]

You know what? That was some rich people shit. Because I feel like it was like, yeah. Some Gilmore Girls shit. It was some Logan Hunsberger, like, I'm gonna fuck you, Rory.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, Break that down for people. Yeah. Who?

[Jo Feldman]

It's just. Who?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Don't follow the show.

[Jo Feldman]

Some. It's so. It's just like. It's only rich people that are like, by the way, I do have to marry. And you're like, oh, but I thought, no. All right.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, guys, we just had sex and, like, we're in your bedroom.

[Jo Feldman]

The nuptials will be on Tuesday. Like, there. It's just. It's different.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, you're right. It's different. Any said. And Lisa's parents don't want me to speak to you anymore, so.

[Jo Feldman]

Right. Because naturally they are aware of our relationship. I also love that she, like, corresponded with him when she was in jail, and she was like, I am not very happy with the fact that you haven't visited me. I will take the plane, though. Please do send it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And also can't wait to see you. Exo. Martha, she doesn't care how he feels. She's like, you'll be there, though, right? And I think she still remains excessively horny, which I continue to love for her. She was quoted saying she would not go on the Golden Bachelor, which, you know, would absolutely bring that show to, I don't know, Emmy winning heights. But she said she wouldn't do it because, quote, the men aren't hot enough.

[Jo Feldman]

I love her. I need a list of everyone she's had sex with. Can we get that list?

[Chelsea Devontez]

I need a list of everyone she hates, everyone she's pretending is dead, and everyone she's ever had sex with. I need three lists. Martha Stewart Living, Martha Stewart lists. Martha Stewart list. So then the very last part of the documentary is about how she had the show. You know, she gets another show after that, the Friendship With Snoop Dogg, all that stuff. But that, like, the show wasn't her voice and she'd kind of lost power, so she couldn't make it her own. And she kind of like falls out of public consciousness and comes back when Justin Bieber agrees to a comedy Central role. And she is on stage. She's gonna be giving part of the roast. And also other people roast her when you're on stage. And I wrote two notes to this, and it fully brings her back as a brand and an icon. My two notes were, man, a roast can rebirth so many people. That Comedy Central roast has created careers, has made legends, has brought back people who were hating. Like, if you do your roast right, it can remake your life.

[Jo Feldman]

Which is crazy to me because I didn't know people still watched roasts like, I watched them when I was in high school. I was, like, so excited for the roast of whoever, but I didn't. I didn't know they were still in the zeitgeist.

[Chelsea Devontez]

She does a monologue that's exceptionally funny, and she becomes the most popular woman alive. And I said she got good writers, because had she not, that never would have happened.

[Jo Feldman]

No, her.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Right.

[Jo Feldman]

Her jokes were so good, and. And she was great delivering them. I've been in lockup, and you wouldn't last a week, so pay attention. The first thing you'll need is a shank. I made mine out of a pintail comb and a pack of gum. I'll show you how later. It's so simple. I found Bubblicious works best, and it's.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So much fun to say, oh, she delivered them perfectly. And she was willing to go places where I was like, maybe you only agreed to say that because you didn't really know what you were saying, because this is. I can't believe you agreed to this. Or you're a genius. She might just be.

[Jo Feldman]

I think she didn't know what most of the things meant.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And they're basically like, oh, she comes back from then. And then it's like, you've got to follow Martha Stewart on Instagram. I remember that movement where she's just, like, riding lawnmowers and, like, I think getting high.

[Jo Feldman]

But.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But, yeah. And so Martha has come out about the documentary and been like, I thought the first half was good, and the second half sucked, and the music was stupid and the prison stuff was boring, and I can't believe you used those shots and blah, blah, blah. But also was like, but some of it was really good, which, I don't know, might be high praise.

[Jo Feldman]

It sounds pretty successful. What is also interesting, and I wondered if it was an editorial choice or a Martha request, was that everyone they interviewed, they only did audio for. They didn't show anyone else's interview. She's the only person you see the entire time.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But they have, like, audio footage from her daughter who clearly could have come on camera.

[Jo Feldman]

Oh, no, they clearly interviewed people. They interviewed inmates. I mean, they definitely interviewed her brother. Like, they definitely interviewed people for this. They just didn't show anyone but her.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. What do you think that changed?

[Jo Feldman]

Well, first I thought, like, maybe that was her being controlling and being like, it'll only be me. But then I was like, there was an embarrassment of riches in terms of, like, archival footage and pictures that maybe they just was. It was more interesting to show what we were. Were talking about than the people telling the stories. But I actually, like, I really loved it for. Specifically for someone like Martha, who is a singular brand whose whole thing is about her. Like, I don't really need to see what any of these people look like.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, I. I also really loved it. I was wondering. Well, I couldn't figure out what was behind it. Like, if it was like, oh, well, half of them couldn't be there, therefore we're making this decision. Or was it just a great artistic choice? Because also, I was. Will throw some shots at some other docs right now. Specifically, did you watch Anatomy of Lies? Yeah. Okay, so do you remember the, like, guy with, like, bleach. Bleach. Blonde hair? Was he British? Yeah, maybe. And he's like, in a white suit. And they use his talking moments where he's explaining, like, see, in television, what you need is this and this and this. And, like, because we're television writers, I.

[Jo Feldman]

Was like, it wasn't true. The thing is, in film, to get ahead, you need a really good story.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You really gotta be crazy. She knew she had to. And you're like, that's not what he was.

[Jo Feldman]

Like, a random guy she went to film school with. And I looked him up and I was like, he has no credence.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, you and I are. This is why we're best friends. So this man has never worked in the business. He has zero credits. He doesn't even have, like, I don't know. Now he writes essays on a personal blog. Like, nothing. Not even, like, a well written photo caption on his Instagram. Like, I looked and so they. They went and found someone who was in a class with her once. And now that is one of the main talking heads that would be a good thing. That otherwise is very good.

[Jo Feldman]

That would piss me off so much if it's just some random person from some random class. And I kept every time having to be like, wait, who's this guy? Oh, right, they were in school together.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And also, like, why why is he.

[Jo Feldman]

The guy they're talking to?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Because everyone else you could tell was like a very.

[Jo Feldman]

Everyone else was personally victimized by her. It was like people she worked with in a writer's room day in, day out for decades, and then, like, her ex wife and her ex wife's children.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, but then this happened with, like, the Lisa Frank documentary, too, where they're like, here's. Here's a podcaster who did an episode which, like, listen, full offense to me, but, like, I should not be on a documentary weighing in on Martha Stewart because I've done this episode now. Like, like, well, how's that your main source? And so. So specifically to the Martha Stewart documentary one, I love that they cited where this source was coming from, like, who they wrote for, where they came from in her life. And also in case there was one wonky source, I don't know, because they just played audio over other footage, which really backs it up. Whereas these other documentaries are like, I don't know, this lady's name is Jenny, and she would love to talk about how this person was a bitch 10 years ago.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah, maybe there was a good. I mean, the fact that they have inmates, like, former inmates talking while they show. Show what seem to be courtroom illustrations of what it would look like if Martha hugged you in jail. Like, there was just, like, the most bizarre.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So true. Okay, it's time to do. Okay, well, it's the book Dill Test, but for documentaries. So it's the dict.

[Jo Feldman]

It's the duckdill test.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I wanted to say dictal, but, yeah, it's the dictal test. Okay, first question. Was the person in the documentary vulnerable in the sharing of their truth?

[Jo Feldman]

Honestly, I say yes, I know.

[Chelsea Devontez]

She says out loud, I don't want to talk about my feelings. And it makes me uncomfortable, which I'm like, that's the vulnerability. And then she handed you letters that should have never seen the light of.

[Jo Feldman]

Day, letters that if I were mine, they would have been incinerated.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah, she. I absolutely think she was vulnerable. I think she's a bit of a liar, but I think she was very vulnerable in her time.

[Jo Feldman]

Yes, definitely.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, second question. Was it entertaining to watch?

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. This is one of my favorite celebrity documentaries, like, definitively of the year.

[Jo Feldman]

It was a pleasure to watch.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Last question. Did watching this documentary elevate your life in any way?

[Jo Feldman]

You know what? It actually made me want to try my hand at a little more domesticity.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh. I mean, you're pretty. You're Like a. You're not Martha Stewart domestic, but you are, like, no, honey, you, like, make things nice. You have little parties.

[Jo Feldman]

No, it's just your bar is so low that you think I'm Martha Stewart, and if she saw the way I go about my life, she would be so sad.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, so are you gonna try, like, a. I don't know, are you gonna, like, freeze a vodka bottle in, like, a bay of strawberries or, like, what are you gonna do?

[Jo Feldman]

Well, I'm not a big drinker. I'm just drinking right now. It did make me want to try cooking more. Since I had kids, I really have not been cooking a lot. And my husband, my Andy, my Jewish Andy does most of the cooking. And it did make me want to be like, all right, get in there, Joe. Come on, let's chop an onion.

[Chelsea Devontez]

My God, why did it take me this whole time to realize that you're married to a Jewish Andy?

[Jo Feldman]

And while I was sitting next to my Jewish Andy, when Andy cheated on Martha, he was like, oh, I really didn't think he was gonna do that. I think it felt personal for him. He was, like, so bummed.

[Chelsea Devontez]

He was like, ah, you were representing all of us. No.

[Jo Feldman]

Oh, come on.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, so it elevated your life in that it made you want to cook. Okay, I like that.

[Jo Feldman]

Yeah. And it made me. It did give me a lot of appreciation for her and also for my job. For a lot of times, my job. Sometimes I feel resentful, you know, about responsibilities I have. And I have to think, like, if I want to be better, if I want to learn more, if I want to be. I don't actually ever have, you know, long to be the best. But if I want to be better and I want to keep learning, then I have to learn from people who maybe operate differently than me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's really beautiful. Yeah. Reading Ina Garden's book made me want to cook a little more, so that maybe took up all my space for that. This documentary elevated my life in so many ways. Like, I've been thinking about it so much. One of the ways that elevated my life is in that thing I said, which is, like, facing hardship was like, her marriage breaking up while she's putting a weddings book out. That was really hard. But going to prison was, like, the worst thing that could have ever happened for her specifically. And facing that fear and, like, becoming better is like, I don't know. I just really love it. And also, it makes me think of myself writing the memoir and, like, how it feels like the worst thing to ever happen to you is. Is sharing for me specifically, like, the worst thing I could ever do was, like, share and just like, I don't know, just surviving the thing that you're scared of the most. Most. And I think I feel like I'm still in process with all of that. Like, the, you know, it was still. It's not even been a full year since that thing came out. And so I still go through process of, like, what it meant to just fully open my entire life up and. And what that meant and, like, how incredible it is to see someone, like, survive the thing. And I also felt like this is so stupid, but seeing her little face as, like, like I am the product I'm selling, that is accidentally what I did when I made this podcast where, like, well, it is me, right? And if I want to take it further, it's built on me and, like, how, like, scary and, like, horrifying that is. But then looking at it from the documentary perspective, you're like, no, it's like, it's. I don't know. I don't even know what I'm saying. So it clearly hasn't elevated me, but it inspired my. My thought processes of, like, what it means to start a business that is so wholly connected.

[Jo Feldman]

100%. Martha made it okay.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And the. And the horrors that could come from it. I really found her unlikableness.

[Jo Feldman]

So, like, I found it very endearing. I could watch footage of her being a psycho for hours, forever.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I. It makes me want to keep trying to delete some of those exclamation points.

[Jo Feldman]

Yes, 100%, I do.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I'm going to keep attempting. Could I ever send one email without it? I don't know, but maybe I'll get there.

[Jo Feldman]

Oh, I couldn't dare. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I couldn't.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You know what I've been doing? I. I don't put exclamations, but then I fill it with emotions.

[Jo Feldman]

Oh, Chelsea, that's much worse.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Which as a grown woman, worse. I know.

[Jo Feldman]

Don't do that. Filled. Filled to the brim on me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I've got to express myself with a little dancing crab.

[Jo Feldman]

It's hard. Listen, and I think, you know, I think if an exclamation point is your truth, then you should do it. It's not Martha's. Yeah, I do wonder. It's not Martha's. Can someone tell me if her daughter's okay?

[Chelsea Devontez]

We'd like to hear back from that. So leave a comment on the Patreon. Let's talk about her daughter. That's where we're gonna leave this year, Jo. I know. Listen, you don't want to put out the magazine about your life, but what would you like people to pay attention to and think about as you leave us today?

[Jo Feldman]

Thank you so much. I would like people to go to heartwaredesigns.com that's my mom's website. She makes beautiful jewelry and if you follow her on Facebook, she goes live every Sunday at 1pm she's really funny. She teaches people about jewelry.

[Chelsea Devontez]

She tells a lot of jokes.

[Jo Feldman]

A lot of jokes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I love this. I love you so much and I can't wait for you to come back and I'll bring you more Taco Bell.

[Jo Feldman]

Thank you.

[Chelsea Devontez]

A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christine Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hom, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code TRASH. That's right, TRASH. T R E A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of 1 at Libro FM. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.