Documentary Book Club - Netflix’s Reality Check: America’s Next Top Model

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast

Episode: Documentary Book Club - Netflix’s Reality Check: America’s Next Top Model
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guests: Justine K. & Natasha Scott Reichel (Two Black Girls One Rose)
Release Date: February 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Glamorous Trash serves as a deep-dive documentary book club on Netflix's three-part documentary, Reality Check: Inside America’s Next Top Model. Host Chelsea Devantez and guests Justine K. and Natasha Scott Reichel (from the podcast "Two Black Girls One Rose") critically examine the documentary and the legacy of ANTM, dissecting Tyra Banks’ role, the show’s harmful practices, the lack of industry impact for contestants, and broader issues around representation, exploitation, and the evolution of reality TV.

The discussion is raw, sharply funny, and pulls no punches as it draws connections across race, misogyny, post-2000s reality television, and the lingering aftereffects on those involved.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Kickoff: Love Is Blind’s Parallels with ANTM

(02:53 - 09:40)

• The hosts first discuss "Love is Blind: Ohio" as a modern reflection of reality TV issues, particularly male audacity, looks-based rejection, and toxic masculinity, tying these themes back to America's Next Top Model's legacy.
• Quote (Chelsea, 03:53):
  “This show, the irony of it being called Love is Blind where every season it has become more and more actually about looks, like it's become a looks based show when it was not supposed to...”
• Observation that reality TV increasingly reflects and amplifies real-world insecurities, gender issues, and social dynamics.

2. First Impressions of Netflix's ANTM Documentary

(12:56 - 15:08)

• Discussion begins in earnest about Tyra Banks’ appearance and the documentary's major players, noting contrasts in willingness to discuss the show’s more controversial elements.
• Tyra was notably evasive about the firing of Mr. J, refusing to talk on camera (“It’s been 20 years. The time to call him has passed.” – Chelsea, 14:08).
• The judges, while angry at Tyra, dodge accountability for their own roles in the show’s controversies.
• Insight: The documentary exposes that being on ANTM did not serve as a career pipeline for anyone—not even the judges.

3. Did ANTM Help Anyone? The Myth of Career Pipelines

(15:08 - 18:18)

• The show failed to launch real careers; even supermodel Winnie Harlow credits her own hard work and disavows the idea that ANTM helped her.
• Quote (Justine, 15:58):
  “They’re producing a reality show at the end of the day...from the very beginning you were casting a show all the way through to season 23 when you’re doing your fourth race switching frickin photo shoot. Like you’re creating controversy, you’re creating good television. You’re not really focused at all on the mission...of creating the next top model.”
• Contracts and “prizes” were often fake or unenforceable; the producers cared more for spectacle than talent development.

4. Tyra Banks: Progress or Performance?

(18:18 - 22:54)

• The panel debates whether Tyra’s stated mission—to “showcase different types of beauty and fight for diversity”—was ever sincere.
• Tyra’s behavior in and since the show suggests calculated self-promotion and gatekeeping, not genuine progressivism.
• Quote (Natasha, 21:46):
  “Tyra is the exact opposite [of Issa Rae opening doors]. She doesn’t want nobody coming behind her.”
• Tyra now pivots to branding herself as an ice cream entrepreneur (Smize & Dream/Hot Mama Ice Cream), reinforcing her detachment from modeling’s realities.
• Chelsea: “Tyra created a program where, by the end of it, you get shoved off a cliff and die.” (22:14)

5. The Show’s Harm: Exploitation, Assault & Racial Trauma

(22:26 - 31:40)

• The documentary’s darkest revelations concern the exploitation of contestants. Sexual assault (e.g., Shandy’s storyline) was reframed as cheating; production enabled abuse and humiliation for “good TV”.
• Quote (Chelsea, 24:48):
  “They edited that so well into making it seem like she wanted him so badly… For them to edit it that way and know what they were filming, and there were just so many people involved with that was really, really disturbing.”
• Tyra’s disavowal of production responsibility rings hollow, especially as executive producer and on-screen leader.
• The show’s approach to race: Tyra, as a Black woman, was overtly cruel and often weaponized racial trauma against Black and curvier contestants, even orchestrating blackface/race-switching challenges.
• Insight (Justine, 29:39):
  “She said about Tiffany…‘That’s some deep black girl stuff deep inside of me.’ And I was like, can we go a little bit further with that?…I just want to know a little bit more about her racial salience and why she takes it out so harshly on these Black girls.”

6. Accountability: Or Lack Thereof

(31:40 - 36:54)

• “I was rooting for you!”: The infamous Tyra explosion at Tiffany is deconstructed—the setup, humiliation, and how Tyra manipulates narratives for drama, not empowerment.
• Mr. J and Ms. J remain reluctant to take accountability for their complicity, further muddying the waters of who bears responsibility.
• Quote (Chelsea, 36:27):
  “Almost rather be like, yeah, I did own it. [Ms. J]…We’ll respect you more for it.”

7. Physical Modification & Toxic Competition

(37:45 - 40:14)

• The contestants’ bodies were literally altered for the sake of TV—forced dental work, gap closures, and other invasive procedures, often for nothing.
• Quote (Natasha, 38:38):
  “I thought what they did to Dani closing her gap, I thought that was one of the cruelest things they’ve done on the show…to erase her individuality.”
• Tyra positioned the show as competing with Fear Factor and Survivor, pushing extremes in the name of “entertainment”—blaming fans for the franchise’s increasing cruelty (“We were nine!” – fan response, 40:14).

8. Tyra’s Legacy: Rage, Denial, and the Future

(40:34 - 43:28)

• Tyra’s affect through the documentary is described as “quiet rage with a smile”—defensive, unrepentant, and still self-mythologizing as a changemaker.
• She leaves the door open for ANTM “season 25,” though the guests agree the show’s legacy is “disintegrated.”
• Quote (Chelsea, 40:52):
  “The key emotion I felt the most from her was rage…it was creepy because I do think she is like, ‘I went through hell for y’all. I created a show for y’all. I did create change. How dare you take me to court now.’”
• Broader industry context: Reality TV, modeling, and fame have all moved online—there is no pipeline or market for ANTM’s return.

9. Closing Thoughts & Future Docs

(43:31 - 46:38)

• Excitement for the upcoming E! documentary, featuring other notorious ANTM personalities (Janice Dickinson, possibly Twiggy).
• Curiosity about why Tyra participated in the Netflix doc at all—guests suggest delusion, lack of self-awareness, or perhaps failed attempts at revisionist control.
• Comparison to other documentaries (e.g., LulaRoe), where the subjects unwittingly come off as deeply unselfaware or even narcissistic.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tyra dodges accountability:
  “Do you want to talk about what happened with Mr. J?” — “No, you know, I should call him. That’s really a face to face thing.” (Tyra via Chelsea, 13:57)
• On Tyra’s late-life reinvention:
  “This is my theory of, like, a late-in-life Harvard is just a recipe for psychopaths.” (Chelsea, 20:31)
• On ANTM’s impact:
  “Even Mr. J couldn’t get another job after hosting for years.” (Justine, 15:08)
• The infamous “I was rooting for you!” moment:
  “Tiffany was set up for failure, and she was set up to continuously feel like she was not good enough...blaming everybody else. Besides, it was you, Tyra, who was terrorizing her...” (Natasha, 33:13)
• On forced cosmetic procedures:
  “Medical work for my reality [TV] and erase her individuality.” (Natasha, 39:01)
• The audience’s retort to Tyra’s claim the show’s extremes were audience-demanded:
  “We were nine.” (Fan response quoted, 40:14)

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Segment Timestamps

• 02:53 – Love Is Blind, Masc Dynamics, and Reality TV’s Gender Problems
• 12:56 – Impressions of Netflix’s ANTM Doc; Tyra & Judges’ Perspectives
• 15:08 – Did ANTM Ever Help Anyone? The Broken Career Pipeline
• 18:18 – Tyra: Progress or PR? Analyzing Motives & Modern Brand
• 22:26 – Exploitation and Assault: Revisiting the Show’s Darkest Scenes
• 29:34 – Tyra’s Relationship (or Lack Thereof) with Race & Representation
• 31:40 – Tiffany, “I Was Rooting for You!”, and Manufactured Drama
• 37:45 – Forced Cosmetic Changes & The Reality Competition Arms Race
• 40:34 – Tyra’s Denial, Rage, and the Doomed Prospects of an ANTM Reboot
• 43:31 – Looking Forward: New Docs & The Untouchable ANTM Legacy
• 46:38 – Wrap-Up & Where to Find Two Black Girls One Rose’s Content

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Additional Context

• Companion listen: Listeners are encouraged to check out Chelsea's previous interview with Sarah Hartshorn (ANTM S9), who provides even further insight into the realities backstage.
• Documentary Reference: Documentary covers years and issues that were previously mainstream but are now, in retrospect, horrifying to revisit.
• Upcoming content: E! will release another documentary featuring Janice Dickinson and other models not present in the Netflix doc.
• Related podcasts: Two Black Girls One Rose are recapping Love is Blind and classic episodes of ANTM on their YouTube channel.

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Summary Tone

Candid, funny, fierce, and compassionate—the episode represents both the deep, painful impacts of ANTM and the cathartic, darkly humorous ways in which pop culture commentators now reckon with that history. The hosts and guests balance sharp critique, tools of media literacy, and survivor advocacy to deliver a bracing yet engaging podcast conversation.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Watched

You’ll come away with a thorough understanding of the major revelations from Netflix’s doc, a sense of the cultural stakes, and a wealth of critical, witty commentary from three leading voices in feminist and pop culture conversation. The episode stands alone as a searing pop-culture analysis and an important record of how reality TV shaped—and often harmed—a generation of women.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, this is Hannah Berner, co host of Gigli Squad. Let's be honest, we've all done things in our lives that may have just followed the crowd, like drinking matcha. Even if you think it tastes like grass or pretending skinny jeans were actually comfortable. Have we been doing the same thing with Zero Sugar Cola? Last year, people across America took the Pepsi Challenge. No labels, no bias. Judged on taste alone, 66% of participants agreed. Pepsi Zero sugar tastes better than Coke Zero sugar and Pepsi Zero sugar won in every single market. Go out and try Pepsi Zero Sugar today. You deserve taste. You deserve Pepsi.

[B]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs, and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea Devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in small stuff, too. And today we are doing a documentary book club on Netflix's reality check Inside America's Next Top Model, which just came out on February 16th. It's three episodes. I highly recommend you watch it. But it did feel like watching a horror documentary of a couple of years that we lived through. It's so, so intense. Here is your trigger warning for, I think everything, I think for Ed Assault. A lot of difficult talk, so take care while listening. But we must discuss America's Next Top Model. And this kind of goes along with a previous episode we did with Sarah Hartshorn, who was on season nine and wrote a tell all. And we will link that episode in the notes because they are companion pieces today. Now let's dive in. Want to talk about being slapped across the face? We felt betrayed, then slapped right back. It was very, very intense, but you guys were demanding it and so we kept pushing. My guests today are Justine K. And Natasha Scott Reichel, the brilliant women behind the hit show Two Black Girls One Rose. A podcast discovering what we can learn about modern dating, love and relationships from popular television. This podcast is so good, They've been named one of 50 best podcasts to listen to right now by Time Magazine. They've been featured in Washington Post, the LA Times, New York Magazine. They also recap other shows like Love is Blind and Bridgerton The Ultimatum. We're gonna talk about Love is Blind at the very top of this podcast, because I have to. And there were also guests on a particularly wild episode on this podcast podcast, Confessions of a Video Vixen and the Vixen Diaries. Do you guys remember when we covered Superhead on this podcast?

[C]

I do. That was fun. Oh, my God.

[B]

That Was we seem to have you on to bring you back to brutal times in history.

[C]

Scandal, controversy only.

[B]

Yes. Okay. Thank you so much for being here. You had a clip from your podcast recently that I laughed myself to sleep to watching. You were discussing this season of Love is Blind Ohio, where devonte is not interested in Britney, though he's not saying it with his words. And Justine, will you please recap what you said about this man?

[D]

So here's the thing about devonte, right? I hate to, like, poke at people's looks and things like that. Like, it just seems like, cheap to me. You're a comedy writer. You know it's a cheap joke, Right? But when you don't like women of color and you have the audacity to be named devonte and you have the audacity not to tell her, and you have the audacity and she's like, gorgeous, I just, I can't not point out the fact that you look like a hair bu sitting in the pool talking about you're not attracted to her. That's crazy.

[B]

This show, the irony of it being called Love is Blind where every season it has become more and more actually about looks, like it's become a looks based show when it was not supposed to be this season the most. And I do think when you are okay articulating so much about someone's looks that is now fair game to be discussing looks. And all the men on this season, they're all talking about how ugly their partners are and how they're not attracted to them. And these are some of the most beautiful women I've ever seen.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What is going on in Ohio? Like, what's your take on this season?

[C]

I don't know. What is in the water? The men this season have so much audacity. Think there's audacity in the water in Ohio. Something's going on where they have so much gall to sit across from even Alex sitting across from Ashley, who was like a very conventionally, like, tall, skinny, blonde girl, kind of, you know, the girl next door, whatever the. And you have the nerve to say that you're trying to match the physical and the emotional. Like, even just that example is just so bizarre to me.

[B]

All of them, I think Alex and Ashley and the Britney triangle is my absolute favorite because Alex is extremely maga and pro Trump and makes it a part of his storyline. Ashley looks like the prototype of that movement. Ashley clearly is like, you are welcome. I am very thin and tall and blonde. Obviously Love is Blind is going to

[C]

go well for me.

[B]

She comes out and he's like, I really want to date the Latina Britney. And hits on her mere feet away from Ashley. I am heartbroken for Ashley, but I'm like, sir, do you realize that you can't date Britney because he's gonna deport.

[C]

Right?

[B]

You can't vote for the man who's gonna take the girl you're trying to away. Like, what are you talking about?

[C]

Thank you. Makes no sense.

[B]

Yeah. And devonte is with the most beautiful woman ever. And God is like, I've never dated a woman of color and clearly has a problem with it. Even though I, I believe he is mixed race. That's been confirmed.

[C]

So I don't know if he knows he's mixed race. That's the thing that's confusing.

[D]

I think he's denying he's in denial of whatever side that he's into. Definitely, like looking to clear the bloodline.

[C]

He definitely wanted them because even watching back the clip of him saying, I don't date women of color, he almost seems so detached from the term of color. And I'm like, yeah. Do you know, has anyone told you, like so confused, like, oh, yeah.

[B]

And then there's Chris, who just broke up with the hottest 5 foot tall brunette doctor. A tiny, tiny, very small woman. Which is important to say because he tells her, I'm not attracted to you because you don't do Pilates every day.

[D]

Also being tiny. Yes, him also make clear he is also a small man.

[B]

He doesn't do Pilates every day. It's very clear.

[C]

He sure don't look like he go to the gym every day, that's for sure.

[B]

And I'm curious, do you think he did that because he, he just, I don't know, just gets boners for women who do CrossFit. Or do you think he was like, oh, she's a doctor, I'm a loser. I should be mean to her. Real quick, what do you think it was?

[D]

Yeah, could be even a combination of both. We had a lot of questions about him and why he would not go with her and what he even thinks he looks like on television. Like, you have cameras on you, you're denying this woman for what she looks like. We are in now the 10th season of this show. You know how that goes. So to, for him to say that also feels like he's really out of touch and like it's, it's just something that like really hit his consciousness, like really, really hard, whatever it is about her. And I think also these men are really reflective of the time. They're like, really reflective of like what's going on in the manosphere right now.

[B]

I think find it so interesting that we talk about a male loneliness epidemic and then you take a sampling of men in Ohio and it's like, y' all deserve to be alone. You don't deserve to have male friends. Like, you guys are so rude and awful and mean and it is really interesting. Is that kind of what you're talking about? Like, oh, male loneliness is at its highest and marriage rates and you have all these men running around being like

[D]

horrible to women, horrible to women, horrible to other men. Chris is even at the mixer was like horrible to Connor about Britney and saying, oh, what is he going to do? Beat me up? Oh, show me a Charlotte swab account. Like just even mean to each other. Which is so bizarre and strange. Especially just as a woman who's built an online community. I'm like, why are you? What is the point of this? Not even just male loneliness, just like how masculinity is looking nowadays and how patriarchy is at like this peak that is clearly on a tightrope. Yeah, like they're walking a tightrope is really, really bad.

[C]

It's like peak insecurity for sure.

[B]

Yeah. It's like masculinity and ideals of it have gotten like stronger and more intense and more aggressive while it's actually the weakest it's ever been.

[D]

It's ever been. Yeah.

[B]

A lot of talking about I'm a trader and they're like, what do you trade? And he's like USD to AUD and it's like, well, that's US dollars to Australian dollars. What? I guess I don't know how trading.

[C]

Clearly I don't either.

[B]

I didn't know just going from Australia to USA was a thing.

[C]

You job. Yeah,

[B]

but I listen, I don't trade stocks. Please weigh in in the comments. But when he was talking about trading, I said, if this is it, maybe I should become a trader. Maybe I can do it.

[C]

Sounds like giving unemployed.

[B]

I also found this season incredibly boring and then suddenly extremely, extremely exciting. But it took a long time.

[C]

It absolutely peaked up for sure.

[B]

Yeah, I've been like having these 14 hour work days and I come home and I watch this trash to fall asleep and then I dream nightmares. So I, I thank you for your takes. I would do the whole episode on Love is Blind with you if I could. However, we are here to discuss, dare I say something far worse than the men in Love is Blind Ohio, which is Tyra Banks in the America's Next Top Model documentary. So highly recommend you it you just listen to this episode, then go watch it if you haven't already. But I think we should just talk about some highlights and things that really stood out to us because this is so jam packed. Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. It has been five months with my Quint Ultra Stretch Pont super wide leg pants. Happy anniversary to us, I guess. No, it's been five months with my favorite pants and they haven't pilled or fallen apart. When I wash them, they're still my favorites. They were less than 50 bucks each. I now have three pairs, one in every color. So when my new foster fail dog happened to eat a hole in my bedding comforter, I turned to Quint to replace it. So don't worry, she's getting dog training. And then as for the comforter, I was like, okay, Quince makes good pants. Let's see if they can make a good bedding set. So I ordered their bamboo duvet cover

[D]

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[B]

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[B]

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[E]

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[F]

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[B]

Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. First, just going top level. What did you think about Tyra Banks appearance? While we also had Mr. J, who was interviewed, we had Ms. J who was interviewed and we had Nigel, who were like the three, you know, main judges. Janice Dickinson was not interviewed because there's another Top Model documentary coming out on E. I'm thrilled. Can't wait. I'll be sitting down for that one too. Can't fucking wait. I need. I need more. But the way they had their perspective of the show and Tyra had her perspective of the show, what was your overall take on how all of those people came off and their relationship to each other?

[C]

It was very telling that Tyra, the one topic she refused to talk about on camera in the documentary was Mr. J and like, how he got fired. She was giving her two cents on everything, even the shandy of it all, which I'm sure we'll get to. She had something to say, but specifically on Mr. J and the firing and all of that, she would not touch it on camera.

[B]

They were like, do you want to talk about what happened with Mr. J? And she goes, no, you know, I should call him. That's really a face to face thing. And I said, it's been 20 years.

[C]

What do you mean exactly?

[B]

You're doing the documentary. Look back, you. The time to call him has passed.

[C]

Was before you sat down and got mic'd up, lady.

[B]

Oh my God, it was such a PR answer.

[C]

Truly. Yeah.

[B]

Did you feel like she did him wrong? Because one thing I was struggling with is that Mr. J, Nigel and Ms. J are all clearly so mad at Tyra for fudgeing them over at the end and firing them that I felt like they weren't pressed to take accountability of some of the things that happened on the show because they're now positioned as victims. But for, I don't know, 15 seasons, they were also perpetrators. And I didn't feel like Mr. J took accountability because he was so mad at Tyra and was sort of like, Tyra made me do the race switching episode. Tyra made me do these things. And then he said he wanted to Leave. She wouldn't let him leave. And then he stays. 10 more seasons.

[C]

Yeah, that was wild. Yeah.

[D]

I think it's such a testament to America's Next Top Model not being a pipeline for, for anyone. Because even Mr. J couldn't get another job after hosting for years.

[B]

That is such a good point because. So Sarah Hartshorn who was on season nine, I did an interview with her on this podcast. I want to point something out. In her book she said Mr. J was the worst and the rudest behind the scenes and didn't want to be on the show and was like rude to all the girls. I asked Sarah, I'm curious your take. I was like, why did this show not lead anyone to have a career? And Sarah kind of pushed back. She was like, no, there were girls who went on to work or Winnie Harlow, but it sort of looks like it was despite America's ex top Model, not because of it. So is that your take on it? This show just crushed all of them. Do you think it led to anyone's success? And like why didn't it produce people?

[C]

I mean I was looking up Winnie Harlow and like what she said about the show. She blatantly said on Watch what happens live with Andy Cohen that America's Next Top Model quote, really doesn't do anything for any model's career. Realistically, she does not credit America's Next Top Model for her success. They credit her. They anytime they mention about success. Winnie Harlow, that's one of our alums. The first they put out there.

[B]

Season 21. So you had 21 seasons before you hit the jacket. 14 women's careers, season 21, you finally get winning.

[C]

But yeah, they're producing a reality show at the end of the day. Yeah, Tyra could sit there still in that chair and talk about how she was there to fight for diversity in the modeling industry and to showcase how it really is and blase blah. But I mean it was a show. Even the way they cast the girls, the questions they asked. They showed a scene from, I think from season one casting the girl Shannon where they're asking her questions about her virginity. Is she a virgin? What that got to do with Madeline? You're casting characters. So from the very beginning you were casting a show all the way through to season 23 when you're doing your, your fourth race switching frickin photo shoot. Like you're creating controversy, you're creating good television. You're not really focused at all on the mission, quote unquote on hand of creating the next Top Model.

[D]

So.

[B]

Yeah, I totally agree. I think this is also where the franchise really failed because I mean, Love is Blind is doing a better job at like making true love. The Bachelor, American Idol put time into making sure some portion of the people who went on the show go on to some sort of success because that's what carries the show. You can't. They can't do the Bachelor every year if no one's gotten married. And I feel like America's Next Top Model was like, literally we don't care about modeling. Like, these are fake contracts. These are fake people. We're thinking about, like if you guys should eat live bugs next season in a modeling challenge.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And they didn't care at all if the girls made it in any way

[C]

when they had Whitney. I think she was the first plus size winner, I want to say. And she said whatever agency they signed her with didn't even have a plus size. Division.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Division.

[C]

Come on. Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So Tyra really says this show was her revenge on the industry. This is her doing good work in the world of showing different types of beauty, of fighting for the curvier girls. Da da da da da. And then created so much harm. Is it that she was trying to push for progress in a year that didn't allow any the early aughts, or is this a shield she tries to hold up as she gobbles up fame and success? Because I really went back and forth into the documentary if she ever truly had a good intention or if that was just what sounds good to her now.

[D]

No, I think she knows what sounds good. I think she is really hyper aware of how damaging it is to have blackface photo shoots for multiple people and then send them out into the world. Like now she's hyper aware of like the actual damage that caused and like what woke actually means and like what she was supposed to represent. And when I was watching it, I found her to have so many qualities of a dictator or a cult leader. Like she was the victim and the profit. Right. She was like just so many things all at once and made these really big statements. Like she said in the very first episode, if I didn't have America's Next Top Model, what would I do? Who was I would model.

[B]

Well, here's, here's the thing, Justine. She was 30, so she was adorned. If she did not get this show, she was a 30 year old model. And I think she felt like her time was because I also was like, why do you have to have this show your whole career? But I Think she wanted to remain in the industry and didn't know how because she was about to be 30.

[D]

Okay, okay, we'll go with that.

[B]

No, I don't know, because. But yeah, with you, because she recently gave an interview where she said, you know, America's Next Top Model and modeling is great. It's in a museum. She says, museum. It's in a museum. But my legacy is ice cream. He said, oh, you're. Yeah, yeah.

[D]

Like a dictator.

[B]

Oh, you're crazy. Like, 2 plus 2 equals 75 in this brain. Yeah. And yeah, I went and looked up her ice cream. Okay. It is called Smize and Dream. It's also called Hot Mama ice cream. It's also called ice cream. You can get it hot and you can get it cold, and it is hot ice cream. And then you can join the Smythe Fam. But also, cream is thicker than water. I said, you went to Harvard Business School. Yes. This is my theory of, like, a late in life. Harvard is just a recipe for psychopaths. If you had a whole ass career, and then you're like, I got to go to Harvard. Like, there is a wound deep inside that ain't never gonna be healed. Anyways, to bring this back to your point, Justine, like, she seems to be lost in terms of who she is. She's now an ice cream maker.

[D]

Right, Right. And she's just the type to close the door behind her. Yeah. Like, I'll never forget Issa Ray said, the point of making insecure is to open the doors in front of me. I want everybody to go ahead of me. Everybody go, make, make, make. Great, great. Tyra is the exact opposite. She doesn't want nobody coming behind her.

[B]

It's almost as if. If Tyra didn't want them to be successful because it personally hurt her. And Issa Rae, I want to say, like, beyond what we know in the headlines, like us here in this industry, she literally has created pipeline programs. There's a pipeline program for talent who is underrepresented to get managers, to get work, to get movies. Like, she's gone beyond just saying it and has actually created the program. Tyra created a program where by the end of it, you get shoved off a cliff and die.

[C]

Literally.

[B]

She was like, come to my pipeline

[C]

program and reaping them nothing but misery.

[B]

Yeah. I found the saddest thing at the end of the documentary. All the girls talking about their unfulfilled dreams.

[C]

Yeah. Oh, and that another really devastating moment was with Dani, the one who. She made her close her gap, which Is like a whole other thing. And Danny's talking about how she won. And then she was just sitting in this model apartment doing nothing but watching Chanel Iman's career take off. And then that phone call she had with Tyra, with Tyranny literally admitted, I knew you were struggling and I did nothing.

[B]

Why would she.

[C]

Why would you admit that? What was the point of that conversation? She's sick.

[B]

I mean, listen, before pressing play on the documentary, I was ready to be like, it was a different time.

[D]

She was really trying.

[B]

She got really lost. And she's also a minority in the industry. Like, she had different pressures. Like, I was ready to see the nuanced reasons behind the terror she created. And I left the documentary being like, you're a monster. She came off so bad in this documentary, I'm wondering if she sometimes cosplays as, like, just one of the girls. And she called Danny was like, sorry, girl, I knew you were a struggling girl. Because it seems to be one of her traits that she sits down is like, I remember I was being cheated on. Right, Shandy.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Big sister.

[B]

Yeah. But it's like. It's like an alien stepping into a girl's girl character for a moment. Yeah. Let's talk about Shandy. So had you already processed that in it's season one or season two? Two, where Shandy basically opens up about being estranged from our family, never getting hugged, never having any type of love in her life. And then they invite these men over who were hired to moped them around the city to their go sees, and they have them over. Shandy had two bottles of wine. She is the size of my fingernail. And she's clearly intoxicated and passed out in this hot tub. And she is then sexually assaulted by this guy. She can't consent. She's fully blacked out. They then aired it as her cheating on her boyfriend. Had you already processed that that was an assault we had watched versus, like, the cheating storyline? Like, where were you at with that when you revisited this in the documentary?

[C]

Oh, my God.

[D]

No, no. They edited that so well into making it seem like she wanted him so badly. Like, her boyfriend at home was just this loser who worked at Walgreens, and she was going to be this big model. And then she called him and they had that really emotional phone call and. And they just positioned. Particularly positioned her boyfriend as this, like, stay at home. Like, he's holding her back from her big new career in Milan. And this guy is, like, just a consequence of her moving forward in the modeling industry. So they tried to almost make it like a storyline to, like, move and push her forward. And for them to edit it that way and know what they were filming, and there were just so many people involved with that was really, really disturbing. And then really even more disturbing, I thought, to see the executive producer, Ken Mock, sitting there and saying, well, we filmed this like a documentary. No, you didn't. Because you put those men in their lap. You have them do maxi challenges and mini challenges. This is not a documentary. This is a reality television competition.

[B]

Yeah. Also, all the rules are set up for, like, you'll give a confessional. These girls should identify here. Challenges. Like, it's not. It's not just you living your life.

[C]

Give them bottles of wine, bottle, you know, hot tub set up there. Like, come on.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. So for him to just excuse it, like, oh, we film it like a documentary doesn't track.

[B]

Yeah. I also thought the fact that when they asked Tyra about it, she said, well, that's production. I have nothing to do with production.

[C]

Her response was so disgusting

[B]

because then they show a scene of her sitting down and guilting Shandy into cheating. And it was like, tyra, again, you know, there's cameras here. Did you think you were to get away with.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Pretending you had nothing to do with.

[C]

And you're one of the producers of the show, so you're not going to gaslight me right now into thinking you had no idea, like, you are the

[B]

producer of the show.

[C]

Yeah, I thought it was disgusting, too. She took, like, pride in the fact that they had way more footage that they didn't show.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, I think Shandy was saying in the documentary of her having to call the guy and asking him if he wore protection, did he have any STIs? Like, they filmed a lot that they didn't show. And Tyra brought that up as, like, a source of pride, of, like, we handled it really well.

[B]

Guys, I do want to go back to. What is it, 2002. It's the early years. And she has other instances in the show, like when the other model is clearly getting sexually harassed during a photo shoot and says. She says to herself, what would Tyra do? Tyra would stop and say something. They bully her into continuing. And then later, Tyra says to her, teaches her, hey, the way to do it is you gotta, like, flirt with him. You gotta say it cute, but have your power. You gotta. You gotta make him think like, you want him while shutting it down. And she thinks she's passing on a Good lesson. So I expected, when we revisited what happened with Shandy, her to be like, I, in my own life believed rape culture was consent. I, in my own life believed that even if you were drunk and had sex with a man, that was your bad choice, because we've always been taught it's on the woman. Right. I handled it wrong. And instead she was like, I edited it out, the sex.

[C]

Give me a trisket, please. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was.

[B]

Let's talk about how Tyra, similar to Chris Harrison, believes we only knew what right and Wrong was in 2020. What is going on? Where. So many times she was like, back then, it was fine, but in 2020, we knew better. And I said, in 2020, you found out blackface was right

[D]

as a black woman.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

The fact that she was the only one sitting there saying that. Ken didn't say that. The head of UPN didn't say that. Nobody said that. But Tyra.

[B]

Tyra's like, I kind of believe. Well, in 2020. I said, no. No. What? But it was very. It was very similar to the Bachelor controversy, where Chris Harrison was like, listen, it's like she dressed up as a racist confederate in 2019. It was okay back then. In 2020, it's now bad. And it' was no. So, okay. So talk to me about your thoughts on. Again, Tyra as a black woman saying really cruel things to other black women. She had Ebony's hair cut by white stylists who made fun of her hair, who butchered her hair. What do you think is going on there? She did the race switching challenge twice. She had no apologies for it in the documentary, other than it wasn't bad back then. What was your take on all this?

[D]

She had a couple quotes, and one of them really stood out to me where she said about, I think, Tiffany.

[B]

Right.

[D]

And lashing out at Tiffany, she said, that's some deep black girl stuff deep inside of me. And I was like, can we go a little bit further with that? We know she has this really infamous beef with Naomi Campbell. Right. Another one shuts the door behind her.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I just want to know a little bit more about her, like, racial salience and racial identity and why she takes it out so harshly on these black girls and then wants to portray that she wanted to make a difference in the industry.

[B]

Yeah. Specifically for black women. And curvy women.

[D]

And curvy women. Right. And she abused them the most on the show.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

In the name of the fashion industry. And then said that some deep black girl Stuff inside of me. And then we just kind of washed over it. I need somebody to ask her a few more questions about that stuff deep inside of her. What exactly she's talking, right?

[B]

Yeah. There is so much there. And I mean, I don't know if this is an apt comparison, but like, I think about whenever I'm at a stand up show and I see a female stand up comedian get on stage, I have the like, please be good, Please be good or you'll ruin it for the rest of us. Whereas, like, every time a dude gets on stage and is like, I smoke weed and jack off all day and bombs, I'm like, well, there goes another male comedian. Right?

[D]

I'm like.

[B]

And I'm like, did she have. Have some sort of like, early industry experience where people were harsh towards her or she felt like she couldn't get in and now she is seeking revenge on the people that remind her of her? Like, I don't know what's happening.

[D]

Yeah, she said she was seeking revenge several times in the documentary. She said it on the industry, but it was clearly on the black and Kirby women on the show.

[C]

That's really true. She's convinced herself that she was like, this is vigilante. Yeah. This Robin Hood of the fashion industry. And really she was just out to like terrorize these young black girls or these girls in bigger bodies and to get back at something deep rooted within her that feels unhealed, resolved or something.

[B]

Yeah, I. I think that's right. Because that is the only way you go to Harvard late in life.

[C]

Right, Right.

[B]

We're just. We're continually trying to patch a woman. Yes. So, yeah, let's talk about Tiffany. Tiffany is the infamous moment. I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. What surprised me the most in this segment is that several people said she said far worse stuff that we edited out.

[C]

Yep. Insane.

[B]

What do you think she said from

[C]

the wild I've already ever seen. So we, Justine and I, we've been rewatching like iconic episodes of America's Next Top model on our YouTube. And we rewatched, obviously this episode. We both looked back at that episode so differently because I remember watching it when I was like 11, I was like, damn, Tiffany, like, I was rooting for you. Why you giving up the context we're missing from that moment. In that episode, prior to that moment and in prior episodes leading up to Tiffany was continuously made to feel like she was a up. And Tyra would always bring up her poor grandma. You got that baby Sleeping on the floor. Your grandma cut off the light so you can get a bathing suit. She brought it up so up several times, and she brought it up again. So Tyra was no savior as she's tried to portray in that moment. I'm trying to save you and teach you a lesson. Tiffany was set up for failure, and she was set up to continuously feel like she was not good enough. And she was also over the humiliation. All the challenges they had to do that were designed to make them look dumb or look stupid. Even that final little mini challenge where they had to, like, read off the teleprompter. Tiffany in her confessionals leading up, she was so over the humiliation. She was so ready to go. And so there's a lot of context missing about why Tiffany was so defeated. And Tyra tries to make it about, you know, you're. You're a black girl giving up on yourself and, like, society and the challenges of being black woman. She even brought it up in the documentary, brought up the society and challenging black woman. And Tiffany was going through so much and again, blaming everybody else. Besides, it was you, Tyra, who was terrorizing her for weeks. Tiffany was defeated and wanted to go. There's so much context missing. And even still sitting in the chair, she's still denying all that context.

[B]

Yeah, that is so well said. And I didn't. I did not realize all that context because I didn't re. Watch. And I'm. Okay, so I'm curious your take on this, because in the documentary, I had this moment of, oh, it's a reading challenge. And reading out loud is, like, one of the most terrifying challenges for any. I don't want to say child, but, like, I'm thinking back to elementary school when you have to, like, read out loud how terrifying that is. And also that Tiffany was like, I don't want it. Like, if you haven't had tons of practice reading out loud, that is, like, an extra humiliating to your intellectual. Like, the idea of you being a smart and good person, that felt like an extra bite. Like, it wasn't a modeling challenge. It wasn't walking. It wasn't looks. It was like, now prove, like, you're reading comprehension. And all the girls, like, messed up at it. It's really hard to read a teleprompter. But Tiffany was just. It's also interesting too. Tiffany was like, okay, see you later. And Tyra was like, no, come back. I'm gonna yell at you.

[D]

She wanted a moment out of her, so she wanted to squeeze one last moment out of her. And Tyra, too, was a big fan of the angry black hood girl coming into being a princess Cinderella character. Huge fan of that character every season.

[C]

There was at least one angry black girl model in the house every season without fail. Yeah.

[B]

Wow. What? Okay. Why do you think Mr. J? For how much he hates Tyra? Why didn't he out what she said? He was like, I will never speak out loud. The other thing she said to Tiffany, I said, why secret?

[D]

Because he probably got stuff that he. He's been saying too. He's also terrible. They're all y terrible sitting on that judge.

[B]

No, you're right. I found him to take the least accountability, even though I think it was Ms. J who actually took zero accountability.

[C]

That was still just sitting there, fabulous. Like, oh, we love this J.

[D]

Who cares?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But I think what I loved about Ms. J is that he was like a gay black man above 6ft tall, featured on a reality show and beloved in years when we were like, RuPaul's Drag Race hadn't even found its spark in that year. This was incredible representation. And I think what I liked is that Ms. J was like, yep, I did all that. And I think I would rather have that than have Tyra be like, well, production let assault happen. But I personally thought that was bad, but did nothing, like, almost rather be

[C]

like, yeah, I did own it. We'll respect you more for it. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, then let's talk about Nigel, who was hired because, quote, they wanted a straight, white, handsome man. And then in the documentary, they're like, well, he is Sri Lankan white.

[C]

Yeah. I was like, white. Yeah, white, very tan. Got some type of flavor in him. Come on.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

It didn't really make me laugh, though, because that really does hark it back to the era where they're like, that's fine. You're white to us. Yeah. We'll just ignore that you're Sri Lankan. Because we have, like. Like, for some reason think we need a white straight man on the female based America's Next Top Model show.

[C]

Not even the fact that he was a photographer that holds more weight. You know, that's actually why I think he was there. But no, right?

[B]

No, no, apparently not. Yeah, apparently he was. And he seems, of course, to be the only one who went on to have a career. He's still a major photographer, whereas no one else. Tyra's not even hosting Dancing with the Stars. She got one season, and they said goodbye.

[D]

Oh, really? Yeah. She seems like a rough one to work with.

[C]

Seems like a Nightmare.

[D]

Yeah, maybe a little bit.

[B]

Okay. Last thing I want to talk about is the dentistry on the show where they forced Dani to close her gap. In later seasons, she's going to create a gap in a white girl's teeth. And then another girl, they pulled four of her teeth, shaved her teeth down and gave her veneers. And within those four days, she was up and modeling. My husband as an adult had his wisdom teeth removed. That's a brutal. You can't just like stand up the next day and smize. And she was in the dentist's office for 12 hours. And the next day they were like, now eat a dead bug and pose or you'll be sent home. And she. And she was doing it.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Because she didn't pull four of her teeth out for nothing. Yeah.

[C]

I thought what they did to Danny closing her gap, I thought that was one of the cruelest things they've done on the show. Yeah.

[B]

It's like a permanent physical. Like the makeovers. Okay. Hair can grow, can go back, hair dye, blah, blah. But yeah. Truly believe I'm gonna send this child to a back alley dentist to get medical work.

[C]

Medical work for my reality and erase her individuality.

[B]

Yes. And she looks so gorgeous with the gap. I don't know why.

[D]

I love the gap. And when Tyra was talking about even all of the just scandal that she was creating on the show, she was talking about the show in competition with shows like Fear Factor and Survivor. And I was like, tyra, you're not in competition with those shows. Those aren't the same people watching a model show of these girls who are going to get a covergirl contract. Those people don't know.

[C]

Totally different audience.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah, totally different. And she was really claiming that that was the same people and she was in competition with those shows and she had to take it to the extreme with that. And that's why she was ripping people's teeth out. Yeah.

[B]

Such a good point. Because also, yeah, she lost sight of the fact that it was a show about modeling, which again, talent based show. Didn't lose sight of it. But America's next top model did become Fear Factor or Survivor. And this is where she said the quote, but we had to go harder each season because you all wanted blame us. And my favorite thing I saw online was someone replying, we were nine.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

I was a middle schooler. It was my fault.

[B]

And I was like, oh, this is modeling. S. I had no idea. Like, what are you talking about, Tyra? Like, this is.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Okay. So she ends the documentary. She really. To me, the key emotion I felt the most from her was rage. It felt like it was quiet rage with a smile. It was creepy because I do think she is like, like, I went through hell for y'.

[C]

All.

[B]

I created a show for y'. All. I did create change. How dare you take me to court now? That's what I felt from her. And she ends it saying, well, I hope you all will be just as open to change as I have been, because it will come for you too, girl. And that to me felt like a

[C]

now you come from on deck girl.

[D]

Yeah. That's when she feels like a dictator. It's like, yeah, you know, I have

[B]

been so open to change.

[D]

Ma', am, you have got ice cream in Australia. Like, no, you're not. What are you talking about?

[B]

Yeah, I think she really was like, just wait till the thing you created is taken to woke town or whatever.

[C]

Right?

[B]

And then she ends it saying, we're gonna do season 25.

[C]

Nobody wants it ready. Nobody's asking for it.

[B]

Do you think she has a contract? Was this happening? Is this something? No, because I think this is the entire reason. The only reason why she would sit down, right, and look like for three hours

[C]

is to pitch a show, to try to pitch something. I don't think there's no way she have a contract with somebody maybe with to be or something. Because Tubi or something like that.

[B]

You guys, it would go great on Tubi to be like the number one watch show, Watch show, watch network. Because it's free. It's in all the hotels.

[D]

Don't let her on to be.

[B]

To Be say, no, no.

[C]

Maybe there. But the legacy is so disintegrated by this point. There's nothing. You cannot talk about America's Next Set Model and bring up much positivity, to be quite honest. Who wants to touch that?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And who's competing? Who's auditioning?

[B]

Also, the industry lives online now.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

How are you going to.

[D]

Right at time?

[C]

The same.

[D]

That was another thing that was crazy that she said that they opened the doors for models who were influenced.

[C]

Girl, Instagram did that. We stop those girls did that.

[B]

Talking about, yeah, Adrian Curry from season one gets on reels and is like, fuck Tyra every day. Is that what Tyra. Right. We created Instagram, right? Yeah. I don't think someone else could come along and be like, it's a modeling competition show because of how the industry has changed, let alone Tyra, who should be buying bars. And the third thing is Like, I just don't know how you're gonna get smize ice cream into a 25th season. So I don't think this will go well for you. I don't know how you're gonna collab ice cream. And America's Next Top Model is back.

[C]

Yeah. She's delusional. My lady's crazy.

[B]

Brutal. Brutal. Will you be tuning in for the E. Documentary follow up in March?

[C]

Sure will.

[D]

Sure.

[C]

Because that one. So you said Janice Dickinson will be on it, I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Is Adrian.

[B]

Janice Dickinson was.

[D]

Was brutal.

[B]

No. Adrian Curry has said no to everything.

[C]

But other models I saw was signed.

[B]

Yeah. Who were not in this documentary will be in that one. I wonder if they're going to talk about Twiggy. Who in Sarah Hartshorn's book was.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Judge for her.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[D]

Yeah, okay. Right, right.

[B]

And Janice Dickinson has a quote in the trailer of the upcoming one where she says, like, Tyra destroyed these girls lives just for her ego. But Janice was pretty mean.

[C]

Janice, you were a witch.

[D]

Yeah. You were like, like fat shaming. Any chance you could projecting do like a lot?

[B]

And then she went and created her own modeling competition show. So I'm really curious how that will be handled.

[C]

She did have a show.

[D]

I totally forgot about that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I wish. Yeah.

[D]

This is less. Less salacious.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

It was a little bit deeper.

[B]

I wish they treated it like a real documentary, you might say.

[D]

Yeah, right, right. Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

Do you think, as my final question, do you think Tyra had any creative control in the Netflix documentary? Because why did she do it?

[D]

Yeah, why'd she do it?

[C]

That's the question.

[B]

And there's rumors. There's rumors like Tyra had creative control. So I said no to that one. Or someone said that. But having watched it, I said, impossible. Why would you sign up? But that being said, like, why would you sit down for this if you didn't have some control?

[C]

Control.

[D]

She's delusional enough to think she looks.

[C]

Yeah, I think so. I think if you think back on her answers for like the Shandy situation, she would sit back and say, I think I handled that well.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

It's interesting though, because the way musicians will often. And other people too will put out. Charlie Sheen will put out their own documentary. That's actually just like propaganda for revisionist history. Why didn't she do that? I know this is silly to pitch that to her, but I'm like, why didn't you. You do the documentary and rewrite it and lie. Right. But no, no, no, we got a good one. I'm. I'm just very impressed and curious how it happened.

[D]

And you know what? This happened too, Chelsea, with a documentary I've been pushing Natasha to watch for years. The Lulu, the Lula Row.

[B]

You haven't watched?

[C]

I haven't yet. I know. I'm saving it for my eternity. Leave.

[B]

O. Yeah, that's some good.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, continue.

[D]

Yeah, it was like that, right? Those people sat down for four hours holding hands, thinking that they were doing Lulu. Well, yes, during that documentary. And they clearly were not. But they're so deep in their own, like, ideas and narcissistic ways and delusion that they think that they look good.

[B]

That's such. And that creates the best show of all. Yes, the best. The best. Well, go watch on Netflix and go listen to two black Girls, one Rose, because. Okay, so you're in the middle of Love is Blind. You're re watching America's Next Top Model iconic episodes. Anything else you were discussing that the people should flock to?

[C]

Yeah, we're doing. Yeah, Love is Blind. Bridgerton. We're about to wrap up. We're watching Traitors Season 4, which is on now.

[B]

Any, any headlines? Are you loving it? Hating it?

[C]

This season has been exhausting. It's been a fun watch, but the last two episodes have been like. So that we're currently doing. But we, we have done old episodes of Max X, Top Model K, Catfish. A lot of great. Yeah, like, nostalgia content on our YouTube. So, yeah, check us out.

[B]

So good. So good. Go give them a follow. Go listen to their podcast if you don't already. You two are brilliant and hilarious and thank you so much for coming on to discuss this horror, this horror movie.

[C]

Jesus, anytime.

[B]

A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and every plate. We will link to those brands in the show notes. Go check them out. Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes and if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon sign up. There's a free tier. You can join, Leave a comment, chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the book club continuing over there.