Hayden Panettiere's Memoir This Is Me: A Reckoning (with Julia Washington)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast — Episode Summary
Title: Hayden Panettiere This Is Me: A Reckoning (with Julia Washington)
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Julia Washington
Original Release: May 26, 2026

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Overview of the Episode

In this episode, Chelsea Devantez and returning guest Julia Washington tackle Hayden Panettiere’s debut memoir, This is Me: A Reckoning. The discussion explores Hayden’s tumultuous journey through childhood stardom, familial abuse, substance addiction, sexual exploitation rumors, and public scrutiny—all told from the perspective of a deeply affected but remarkably candid survivor. Throughout, the hosts highlight the memoir’s paradoxical tone: emotionally raw, yet haunted by what is left unsaid. The conversation is unflinching about the book’s disturbing content, with both empathy and sharp critique.

Trigger Warning: This episode discusses alcohol and drug abuse, domestic violence, parental abuse, sexual abuse, and sexual exploitation. (02:53)

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Book Club Housekeeping & Book Community (04:43–07:50)

• Chelsea and Julia catch up on their recurring collaborations and invite listeners to join Julia’s book club for “Yesteryear.”
• Discussion about Hollywood’s obsession with intellectual property (IP) and pre-publication book-to-screen deals.

2. First Impressions: Tone & The Missing Half (08:57–11:59)

• This Is Me is described as “haunted” and “cathartic,” evoking simultaneous confusion and empathy.
• Chelsea:

  “I am bamboozled. I’ve been run amok. I’m a wreck… this book bamboozled the fuck out of me.” (02:02)

• Julia:

  “Her story just really was the reminder I needed that grace and empathy can exist with boundaries and it’s okay.” (09:20)

3. Childhood & Family Dynamics (16:44–29:33)

• Hayden’s mother was a classic stage mom, pushing her into acting as an infant.
• Chelsea and Julia both sense an undertone of emotional neglect and manipulation:
  • Hayden identifies as bisexual but never comes out publicly, adding to her sense of shame and repression.
  • Julia:

    “I got the sense too that her mom...as the book goes on, has this very prescriptive idea of what their family's supposed to look like... It's almost like it's ignoring [reality].” (27:56)

• The family’s finances are murky—impressive homes purchased with Hayden’s earnings, parents living off her success, and Hayden ultimately buying them a house.

Notable Moment:
Hayden's mom refusing to let her daughter cut her hair for Panic Room, costing Hayden the role—an example of her mother’s dominance over both Hayden’s career and personal identity. (26:42)

4. Sexuality, Body Image, & Bullying (22:56–43:14)

• Hayden speaks about her tomboyish tendencies and struggles with bi identity.
• She’s bullied at school, feels isolated, and learns the lesson: “Acting = love.”
• Discusses harmful body image issues fueled by tabloids and lack of maternal support:

  “A magazine published [a photo] with a banner over my legs featuring one word: Cellulite...I just feel so much pain for her.” (43:08)

5. Early Fame: The Pressures of Celebrity (40:45–45:43)

• Describes relationships with age-appropriate Stephen Colletti but also the predatory dynamic with much older co-star Milo Ventimiglia (age 30 to her 17/18).
• Julia:

  “Literal child. And, like, she did the thing that they always do, which is say, well, nothing happened before I was 18. And I'm like, I'm so sorry, Hayden. I don't believe you.” (45:32)

6. Dysfunctional Family Dynamics & Abuse (47:31–53:46)

• In a shocking family episode, Hayden’s father is arrested for domestic violence. The memoir presents a muddled, denial-ridden account.
• Discussion on the Italian American stereotype’s misuse as an excuse for violence.
• Julia:

  “It's not her job to manage her parents’ emotions and they don’t understand that.” (36:58)

7. Sexual Exploitation & Room 23 (53:46–66:16)

• Chelsea ties Hayden’s brief friendship with Diana Jenkins (Real Housewives’ cast member and subject of “Room 23”) to allegations of a Hollywood sexual trafficking ring—acknowledging these are online rumors and that all accused have denied wrongdoing.
• Hayden’s narrative is filled with cryptic “Easter eggs”—details and patterns that hint at, but do not explicitly reveal, exploitation.
• Julia:

  “There's something about this situation that you understand and know was not right... but I don't know if we're there yet.” (59:56)

8. Predators in Hollywood (61:22–65:52)

• Hayden, then 20, is brought to a party with older, powerful men—recounting sexual harassment by a “very, very, very famous actor.”
• Discusses being trafficked on a yacht by a “Stella,” with a famous British musician involved (identities concealed).
• Chelsea:

  "I think what's so painful is that Hayden, even now, doesn't feel like she can say who this is. Not just the guy, but also Stella." (66:16)

9. Relationship with Vladimir Klitschko & Motherhood (68:29–85:29)

• The romance with Wladimir Klitschko is described as a physically “cute” meet-cute, but Chelsea and Julia both decry the glaring power imbalance (significant age, cultural, and language gaps).
• Hayden describes her disastrous postpartum depression, addiction struggles, and eventual loss of custody of her daughter, Kaya, to Vlad.
• Chelsea:

  “She knows that this was maybe the better decision. Even though Vladimir dad was a misogynist about the child...they decided that because he was sober, he was a better person for the child.” (84:25)

10. Addiction, Domestic Violence, and Further Decline (85:30–89:43)

• After losing custody, Hayden enters a new, violently abusive relationship with “Brian,” leading to further trauma.
• "Brian" is now publicly supportive of the book, attending AA meetings with Shia LaBeouf as a sponsor.
• Julia:

  “I literally have no idea how to respond to that.” (87:49)

11. The Death of Her Brother & Abrupt Ending (89:43–90:19)

• The memoir closes with the sudden death of Hayden’s brother, Jansen—no resolution, no “this is me now” reflection, no triumphant recovery.

12. Family Fallout & Press Response (90:19–94:01)

• Chelsea reads Hayden’s mother’s response, which comes across as cold and blaming.
• Both hosts reflect on generational trauma, “radical acceptance,” and the difficulty of genuine healing.
• Julia:

  “The woman who demanded perfection from a four year old for acting... Oh, okay, that’s great Hayden.” (92:09)

13. Book Dull Test & Final Thoughts (94:13–end)

• Was Hayden vulnerable? Both agree yes.
• Was the memoir entertaining? Yes, in a rage-read, morbidly fascinating way.
• Did it elevate their lives? Julia reflects on the value of discussing postpartum experiences and how Hayden’s honesty validates other women’s struggles.

Julia:
“I really appreciate that she was so open and honest about [postpartum detachment] and that elevated me to be like, yeah, this is real.” (98:07)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “I am bamboozled. I’ve been run amok. I’m a wreck. I read this book intrigued and deeply confused.” — Chelsea (02:02)
• “There’s something really off…maybe she’s struggling to remember or she’s not ready to share that part.” — Julia (16:56)
• “Her story just really was the reminder I needed that grace and empathy can exist with boundaries.” — Julia (09:20)
• “It’s almost as if writing’s really hard, huh? Especially under weird circumstances…” — Chelsea on Hayden’s harsh criticism of showrunners (62:57)
• “It feels like being punched in the face as a reader because you’re just left hanging off a cliff looking into misery.” — Chelsea (90:09)
• “I just have so much love for Hayden and I’m just so rooting for her and her career from now on.” — Chelsea (98:32)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:39 — Julia joins, opening thoughts on emotional impact
• 08:57 — Haunted tone and “grace with boundaries”
• 16:44 — Early family environment and ghost-writing pitfalls
• 22:56 — Gender, sexuality, and coming of age
• 26:42 — “Panic Room” and her mother’s sabotage
• 35:16 — Ties acting to validation, codependency with mother
• 43:08 — Tabloid body-shaming, impact on self-esteem
• 53:46 — “Room 23” and Hollywood trafficking rumors
• 61:22 — Yacht incident and sexual exploitation hints
• 68:29 — Romance with Vlad, issues of power and communication
• 75:24 — Alcoholism seen as “unwomanly” in Vlad’s culture
• 82:48 — Breakdown of custody loss and aftermath
• 85:30 — Domestic violence with boyfriend Brian and AA ties
• 89:43 — Brother’s death and abrupt close
• 90:19 — Discussion of “radical acceptance” and family response
• 94:13 — Book Dull Test and final reflections

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Tone & Style

The hosts maintain a conversational, often darkly humorous tone throughout, balancing the grotesque realities of Hayden’s story with camaraderie and mutual care. Chelsea’s blend of empathy and incisive media critique, paired with Julia’s grounded insights as a young mother, make for an open, sometimes uncomfortable but always honest, processing of this hard-to-stomach memoir.

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Final Thoughts

This Is Me: A Reckoning is portrayed as both a shocking exposé and a cryptic confession—a book haunted by both what’s told and what cannot (or will not) be said. Chelsea and Julia leave listeners with equal parts heartbreak, rage, and hope that by speaking the messy truth, healing becomes possible—for Hayden, for survivors, and for readers too.

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For further discussion, transcripts, and links to Julia’s book club and merchandise, check the show notes or join the Patreon.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Study and play Come together on a Windows 11 PC and and for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn [e-mail] studentoffer while supplies last ends June 30th terms at aka mscollegepc. Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea Devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today we are book clubbing Hayden Panettiere's memoir titled this is Me a Reckoning, published May 19, 2026. It's brand new, hot off the presses, and you know Hayden from so many things. The little girl with blonde curls and Remember the Titans. Or as Claire Bennett, the cheerleader everyone was trying to save on heroes. Or you might know her as troubled country singer Juliet Barnes on the musical drama Nashville, which ran for six seasons now. Just a little fun fact about me if you're not an OG listener, it's shocking to people. But I'm not celebrity gossip fan, which is shocking because of the podcast I run. But all to say, like, I don't follow, like blind items. I don't love blind items. I think Perez Hilton can rot in all iterations of him. His whale Dumois not a thing for me. However, anytime a woman wants to tell her own story, especially a Woman in this business, because I'm in this business. So I love women's stories. I'm here for it. I always want to hear stories. I love film history. And, yeah, I love gossip, but I love it coming from, like, the source's mouth. Now, I'm only saying this to explain how this book bamboozled the fuck out of me. I am bamboozled. I've been run amok. I'm a wreck. I read this book intrigued and deeply confused. And then when I went to go find the answers to my confusion, I found blind item Nightmares. Nightmares. It was like going on a. You're like, I want to tour this house. And then you get in and you didn't realize you bought a. A ticket to, like, a haunted house adventure. I know my guest also agrees with me from the look on their face. So let's just dive in and get ready for a wild one. I know we're gonna have trigger warnings for alcohol use, drug use, domestic violence, parental abuse, sexual abuse, sexual trafficking. So all those things are coming. Please take care while listening. My guest today is Julia Washington. Julia is a guest. I just keep forcing to come back. I think I've just decided, like, I just want to talk to all my friends about books, and I'm throwing out the old, like, go to new people thing. I'm just like, julia, will you please come back? And Julia's here. Julia was on our Brandy episode last month. You should really check that out. Is a really good episode. And Julia is the owner of Pros and Glow, a literary inspired gift shop. You must sign up. We actually have a candle collab with Julia going on right now, maybe forever. Let's see where Julia actually made all the merch Candles for glamorous trash, where we have fun little phrases about, like, psychic moments. And I think a quote of mine of, like, my religion is finding another woman who is down to fuck some shit up. So buy those. You can also become a member of Julia's book club on Patreon, and she sends you a candle every month. I'm a member of. That is my favorite thing in the world because I love getting a new candle now. Julia, hi, how are you? Hi.

[C]

Hi. Thank you for having me back. I'm so happy to be here. I cried a lot.

[B]

Thank you for letting me ask you to read just a book, maybe every month with me. Okay, before we get into Hayden, I want to talk really quickly. So Christina, our book club producer, and I recently had a book club event for the book Ask not the Kennedys and The women they destroyed. It was a cookies only book club event where people got to discuss and share their feelings. And Christina put together this phenomenal slideshow. And then we put that out as awesome audio, actually, for subscribers only. And I gotta tell you, if you think that is not a good episode, the amount of comments I've gotten saying, I had no idea a book club, a group book club, could be a phenomenal episode. Christina edited it, destroyed it. And also the cookies are so thoughtful and smart. And we're already thinking about quarterly what book we're gonna book club next. And on that event, in that episode, people are like, let's book club yesteryear. But we're mostly a nonfiction podcast. Even though yesteryear really is in, it's really in my pocket. And someone said, julia Washington is actually doing a yesteryear book. So if you read yesteryear and want to book club about it, you should go to Julia's book club. So, Julia, tell everyone where to go.

[C]

Yeah, you can find us on Patreon. Patreon.com juliawashington we're going to cover it because in my book club, we mostly read book to screen adaptations. And in our program wing, we always throw like, recently announced adaptations so we can have that speculative conversation of like, I mean, we know who's cast already

[B]

for yesterday and half of it.

[C]

So, like, that's not a huge conversation we'd have. But we like to talk about the book and I'm really excited because it's flying off the shelves at the bookstore where I work. Like, we can't keep this book on our shelves. Everyone has a different opinion. And even within the bookstore staff, we all can't agree, so.

[B]

But that makes a great discussion.

[C]

Exactly. That's why I was like, okay, we've got to throw this in the program. It wasn't originally a part of the scheduling, but when something hits like this, you have to do it.

[B]

You have to. So you're going to do it in July, in dish of July, mid July. And we're going to put the link to that book club in the show notes. And Julia has opened this up to non Patreon members, so you don't even have to sign up. I think you have to click like, I'll be a free member maybe, but basically you don't have to pay to do this book club. Is that correct?

[C]

Correct.

[B]

As I said out loud, I said, damn, Julia. Are you sure? Yeah, it's a good event.

[C]

I mean, I feel like it's such a great topic of conversation. Like, I can't. Anybody who buys the book in the store, we start talking about. It's like a 20 minute conversation. Like, we can't. So I was like, everybody's got to be welcome. We can't just keep it to just our people. We have to include whoever wants to have a conversation.

[B]

Love that. It's also a great way to decide if Patreon book clubs are for you. You could. You can just, like. Also, I see comments being like, I was too shy to join your book club and I just have to say, you don't have to talk. Just get on, keep your camera off, chill, hang. The chat is always so fun. You don't have to speak. We never call on people like class, like people. There are people who want to talk, and those are the people who. Who discuss.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Also, I might. I might try and, like, steal your audio. We might publish it on this podcast. I might show up. I don't know what's going to happen yet, but we might collab a little.

[C]

I love that.

[B]

Okay. I love that you're recovering yester year. Also, I see people talking about this incorrectly, so I guess I'm just going to give what I think is probably the mo the most lukewarm business tea, which is that when a book is initially written and it's going to be published, I will say IP is so intriguing for studios in Hollywood right now that almost every book, but especially, like, we think this is going to be a good book, goes out to get optioned a year before it's published. So a lot of people think like, oh, this book came out, it was so hot. Anne Hathaway bought the rights and is going to make the movie. No, Anne Hathaway bought them rights years ago and knew that this was a hot book to get. In fact, like, anytime I come across a book I love, I already know the rights are taken because you have to get it like, a year before the book has been published. So that's my lukewarm business tea. Oh, Julia, are you ready to transition into Hayden Panettiere's book?

[C]

Yes, I'm emotionally prepared. I've been emotionally preparing all morning. I had tea instead of coffee.

[B]

Oh, wow. And I am the opposite. I had three coffees because I had to do so much processing to figure out why this book is so. So haunted. It's so deeply haunted. That's my overall word for the book. What's your overall word for the book? And then we're just going to dive right into it and talk about our thoughts as we go through the stories cathartic.

[C]

Ooh. I'm a woman who had a child very young. I understand, you know, like, there's a lot of stuff through this that forced me to remember to have empathy and understanding for the people in my life who suffer from addiction, you know, and especially past experiences and like, family court. Yeah, yeah, I see the inside of a family court again. And so, like, her story just really was the reminder I needed that grace and empathy can exist with boundaries and it's okay.

[B]

Oh, I love. That is a great theme to hang on to as we dive into this. Grace and empathy can exist with boundaries. I think that's like a good. That's a good trifecta. That's a good recipe. All right, we're gonna talk about why and how and everything, but the intro to the book does tell you all the big hits, the big life beats. So I'm gonna go through those right now. So the prologue started. The first paragraph ends with, you know, winter is practically over. It's a time to renew, regrow, and start life fresh. And I said, oh, no, boring and serious. Uh, oh, I was, I was very. I was really worried. And we'll talk about tone soon. Then she discusses how she lost her little brother, Jansen. In 2023, he passed away. We found reporting on today.com saying that he died due to an enlarged heart and aortic complications, which. It's a. It's a really complicated matter. She talked about how her mom got her into acting when she was only eight months old. I've seen other interviews, she said, where she was a four month old baby. Her mom was an actress who had some small successes on soap operas and then really became quite the stage mom. And then, you know, page three, she says, my daughter Kaya has lived with her dad, Vladimir Klitschko. My daughter Kaya has lived with her dad, Vladimir since 2018. Not being under the same roof with her every day is most gut wrenching experience of my life. And then on page four, the book really revealed what was coming for us tonally and story wise, she said, I wanna make it clear that I don't blame Vlad for any of my wrongs. I take full responsibility for my part in our relationship and my shortcomings as a mom. Vlad is one of the most courageous people I've ever met and a true hero in so many ways. Time and again, he's built me up when others would have knocked me down. Vlad, you are a wonderful human being, an amazing father to Kaya. And if you read this book, I hope it's with an open heart and that strength and stoicism I've always teased you about. My note there was, oh, no, I'm scared.

[C]

My note was, oh, no, am I going to side with a man? Yeah.

[B]

I think it's really interesting because this is a very, very kind intro to him given what's gonna come.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

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[C]

Your word haunting. I think that's perfect. I think that is a perfect way to put that because she'd tell the, she'd share these deep, very sincere stories. And then you're like, but some, like you said, there's something missing here.

[B]

There's something really off. Yeah.

[C]

And I don't know if that's because maybe she's struggling to remember or she's not ready to share that part, but it definitely was like, I need to give you a hug.

[B]

I definitely, yeah, I've used Some negative words to describe this book, but to describe Hayden, I just want. I just want to, like, root for her. And I. I also am like, I want to hold her. I'm like, she don't know me. But I. Yeah, you just. You. I. You have, like, such deep love and care and hope for her. And, like, all I want is for her success. I'll point out some things in the book. I actually think the book is exceptionally chilling because of the ghostwriter. I don't know who the ghostwriter is. I couldn't find them in the acknowledgments, but I think they finished out sections that Hayden was not present for or didn't provide details for. And so they wrote it in ways where, like, it was, like, pulled from, like, the headlines or something. Like, it's definitely what happened. But the voice of the book is really weird and often doesn't sound like her. In interviews, she sounds much different, much more like herself. She's more descriptive. She's sassier. And then the book sometimes, I think is finishing stories almost in, like. Like, a God voice, like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah happened. But, like, you know, it's not her talking. I don't know. That is my guess. Okay, so our psychic moment comes early. She is a little child. Her mom has already gotten her into acting. And at one point in the kitchen, she turns to her mom and she says, you're pregnant. She's, like, 4 years old. And her mom had no idea. But her mom later finds out she is pregnant with her little brother Jansen. So love and early psychic moment. I really struggled with the first half of this book being mired in that talking about your mom, your grandpa, childhood sort of stuff. What did you think at the beginning?

[C]

I also kind of struggled with it, too, because I was trying to understand what the point was. Like, what is it that you're trying to give to us with giving us this family history? I did think it was interesting that there's generations of family members that went to college, and that wasn't her story. But I don't see the tie in for that. You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, same later, I was like, oh, I can see why she started talking about some stuff, but it was. It was hard to follow an arc with it. Yeah, Howard Stern is just, like, has an entire chapter almost, because her mom's always playing Howard Stern, and she drives Hayden to all these auditions in the city and driving her home. Howard Stern would talk for hours and hours, and her mom would be driving her every day. And that was my big takeaway, which is her mom's frame of reference on culture. And Hayden as well, is all colored through Howard Stern because he's talked about very positively, and most people talk about him very positively and how talented he is. However, everything embedded in him, even when he's, quote, being a nice guy, it's just a extremely misogynistic lens on the world. You know, he would weigh women in studio. The way he would treat women versus men is, like, so distinct. And I think that type of misogyny was really embedded in her mom.

[C]

Yeah, I would agree with that completely. Her mom also kept saying things like, I'm not that kind of stage mom. And you're like, do something. That was exactly that stage mom.

[B]

And you're like, girl, oh, my God. So Hayden's probably biggest break as a child. I mean, she works a ton, but she gets cast on Guiding Light, and then she says, then my parents spent all of their savings, their life savings. Her dad's a firefighter. Her mom is a stage mom who maybe acted a little bit. They spent all of their life savings and built a 4,000 square foot house in a neighborhood where the neighbors are Bill Murray and Bjork. Now, I heard our daughter got cast on Guiding Light and we have built a mansion. She wrote, my parents spent their life savings on this house in a new, fun neighborhood. What do you think it was?

[C]

I agree with you. I was like, what do you mean?

[B]

You live next to Bill Murray and your dad is a firefighter, which should make a ton of money. And they do make good money, but I don't know about 4,000 foot house.

[C]

Square foot house. And not only that, she commented several times that her dad was a firefighter, specifically in Harlem, and he loved that. I don't know about you, Chelsea, but that kind of shit's a red flag to me. What do you mean a white man wants to work in a black neighborhood? Like, what is that?

[B]

In my head, I was just like, oh, he loves being a firefighter. And he just happened to be in

[C]

that district because prior to that, he was also a cop in that district.

[B]

Wait, how did I skip over that?

[C]

Oh, right.

[B]

Because she was like. She was like, being a cop sucked. Being a firefighter was better because people,

[C]

you know, wave with you at all five fingers. Sure. Okay. Fair. I don't know. I don't know what your family dynamic is, but I'm here.

[B]

Well, she does a lot of protecting of her dad. And then you read in between the lines and you're like, I know you're writing about him as a great guy. But later, let's just. Here's a sneak preview. When she gets really famous, her dad decides to become a golf pro, which is funny because I'm pretty sure you can't be a pro unless you go pro. So I think he was just like a man playing golf, being like, I'd love to go pro.

[C]

Which is.

[B]

It's what a job. Which is not a what pain job. She floated her family a lot in a way that's clear in the book, but also not written down in a sentence. Right.

[C]

Except for the fact of when they moved to la. And she's like, I bought the condo that we all lived in. And I was like, finally you acknowledge that you're paying for something for your family. Okay.

[B]

But also, that was written so weirdly. Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Still, back into the childhood. One of the big things I want to read is that she said, mom laid out my clothes every night, and I dutifully put them on the next morning. I did this until around middle school when I broke down and told mom that while I valued her help, I really, truly could dress myself. That is a very late age to not have any freedom to be who you are and to have your mom there dressing you when you didn't want it. Middle school, that's a long time and

[C]

already a tough time. Like, middle school in itself is just a really difficult period of life. So to not be allowed to discover who you are until that time, that's hard.

[B]

Oh, my God. Or have any agency, and she has to fight for it. And she ties this into saying, my secret was that while I didn't want to act or dress like a girl, I sure as heck wanted to spend a lot of time with them and not just as friends. And so she wanted to dress more tomboyish, she says, than her mom wanted her to be. And then she describes that she's been bisexual her whole life. She's known about it since she was a little kid. She's had experiences with women, and she never, quote, came out in the Hollywood way because she didn't want to be accused of attaching herself into. Into a fad, which is so painful. But also, she obviously felt she had to hide it. And for a good reason, like from culture, from her mom for being, like, a Hollywood star in the 2000s. She didn't feel like she could ever come out as gay in any way.

[C]

That broke my heart. Yeah, that broke my heart. And I was like, this is adding to the path of I Understand why, like, addiction is becoming a problem. Like, Right. Like, the early stuff of all the. Like, just in general, like, the stage momery of it all and the way that her mom coached her in acting was just felt very aggressive to me. But then. So that's like a brick. And then now with, like, this other layer of, like, not being able to express who you are. Another brick.

[B]

Yeah. Inherent shame in who you are. Yeah. The kids bullying her at school because she is an actress and her not have any friends. Yeah. That's a really good way of describing, like, a brick being created into this, like, horrible wall that you grew up with.

[C]

Yeah. Of course you want to numb the pain if this is how you're feeling. Like, of course you're going to seek something to numb the pain if that's how you're feeling. Every.

[B]

Yeah. And even in the book, she has this chapter, but she's had relationships with women because she says so in this chapter, but we're not going to read about any of those, at least not sexually. And so then she books the movie Remember the Titans. And because her mother has made her present and act so feminine, the casting director didn't even want to give her an audition for it. Whereas Hayden says in her true heart, she wants to be that character she was. And Remember the Titans, which was a little girl who loved sports and wore pants and talked tough, which I think is the Hayden we've come to know. And she said filming that movie was one of the best experiences ever, and she wishes she could go back and do it again. And that is so rare for a child actor to say that. I think that movie should get a lot of credit just for that. And Denzel being so kind to her.

[C]

I just. I loved it. I was worried that we were gonna get some horrible story because I do love that movie so much.

[B]

Oh, I was. I was like. And then. But she said. Yeah, no, she said it was. It was, like, one of the best experiences. And then she talks about how she was cast in the movie Panic Room with Nicole Kidman originally, and that when Nicole Kidman is recast with Jodie Foster, her mom comes into the room and says this. Honey, I have something to tell you about the movie. The producers want to move on to someone else. They're just not sure you look enough like Jodie Foster. I was speechless. I did look like Jodie Foster. Not just that, but I'd earned this part. How could anyone take that away from me? They're going with an actor named Kristen Stewart. I'm so Sorry. And then she writes this. Years later, my former manager told me the real reason why I was dropped from the film. The director spoke to my mom about cutting my hair so that I would look more like Jodie Foster, who's always rocked a great bop. Mom said, no, it was a deal breaker. Panic Room went on to gross 197 million worldwide.

[C]

Another layer to why addiction was her best friend.

[B]

I mean, I. I also. What is it? This thing where moms don't let daughters touch their hair?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Only makes you want to cut all your hair off.

[C]

Off more. Yeah. And I wonder, too, because I don't know about you, but I remember being in junior high and hearing things like, boys won't date girls with short hair.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Too masc. And so, like, that conditioning of always having to be prepared, like, presentable for the male gaze.

[B]

Yeah. And I think we grew up in similar years. I feel like Natural Girl Pretty was like, what we came up on before it turns. And now we're back in that fucking hell, and it's like your natural hair color. Like, your son kissed hair. And anyways, I'm tying that back to her mom, who I think really prized her blonde, golden hair that was so curly. And her mom being like, we must have this long hair to the point that I'm gonna turn down this giant movie, which is why I want her to have hair. Cause I want her to get cast in parts. Like, it's a very twisted little knot.

[C]

Yeah. I got the sense, too, that her mom. I mean, obviously her mom's living her acting dreams through Hayden. Right. Like, that's very clear throughout the whole book.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But she also, as the book goes on, has this very prescriptive idea of what their family's supposed to look like, what her role is, what the husband like, all of it. And whenever it starts to not look or present or become anywhere near that, she does this weird. I don't want to say it's like, ignoring, but it's almost like. It almost is like it's ignoring. It's like, that's not real. This is who we are.

[B]

Yes, yes. Denial. Absolutely.

[C]

Denial. That's the word.

[B]

And. And she. Well, I think what's interesting is that she tags this with Panic Room, went on to gross 197 million worldwide, which gives the, like, can you believe my mom fucking did this to me? However, what I wish was in there was something I read in an interview, which is that she then watched Kristen Stewart's life and career in comparison to hers with such Tragedy. So Kristen goes on to get cast in Twilight. Kristen is now a director of films herself. And Kristen is openly out and gay. And Hayden said she was finally able to, like, meet Kristen at a party one day and, like, talk it through. And it was really cathartic of, like, this moment in, like, a sliding doors moment, which, given who Hayden Stanley was like, who knows if this role would have been the sliding doors or not? But I think I have people like that that I look at that I had a sliding doors moment with. And then you watch their careers and their lives forever and wonder if that would have been you, if only. And that, to me, I think, is one. I wish she had written that down. I think she was dealing with that a lot because her career takes a very different turn.

[C]

Yeah. And that's hard. Comparison is hard.

[B]

I mean, especially in. I mean, in the world and especially in this industry because comparison is also rent money. Right.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So then on page 79, she writes this story. She says, I was 12 years old, and while I knew I needed my mom, I wasn't sure I wanted her. I definitely need. I definitely didn't need whatever crazy plan mom had cooked up. She and I spent so much time together, so deeply enmeshed in each other's lives that we'd start grading on each other. I hated when mom whispered about other actors during auditions. Positive they could hear her compare them to me. I hated when mom went to industry parties and got tipsy on the merlot she loved. Recently, mom had made me late for a scene during the filming of Raising Helen because she had to go to the bathroom and it rattled one of my older co stars. And then she goes in for this audition on Malcolm in the Middle. And the episode's director is Bryan Cranston, who obviously has blown up to even greater success. And she says, when you go in the room, tell Brian your mom wants to meet him and she's waiting outside. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now, and we'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home with agents who close twice as many deals. When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get [e-mail], own the dream. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. The four seasons is back for season two. Starring Tina Fey, Will Forte, Colman Domingo, Marco Calvani, Carrie, Kenn Silver and Erika Henningsen. After a difficult year, your favorite group of friends continues their tradition of vacationing together, now with a baby in tow. From the Jersey shore to upstate New York and Italy, their getaways are sure to take unexpected turns where comedy ensues. Watch the four seasons May 28, only on Netflix. Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. So Hayden goes in there and she's like, my mom wants to meet you. And he thinks he has to meet, like, this kid's mom who's gonna yell at him, goes outside and Brian Cranston. She shouted as she ran toward him with her arms out. It's Leslie Vogel, your wife. On Loving, which was a soap that they had shot. Brian backed up for a moment. Then he held his stomach and doubled over in laughter as mom pulled him into a hug. Your daughter scared me to death, he finally said. I thought I was going to be attacked by an out stage mom. Isn't she good? Mom asked, beaming. She is, he answered. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Mom blushed. So what do you think? Did she get the part? Brian paused. You know, Leslie Hayden is so wrong for this role, but we're gonna make it work. We can put a wig and some nerdy glasses on her and we'll have our Jessica. Mom started clapping and I did, too. I had to give it to her. Mom might have been embarrassing and ruthless, but she was a force of nature when it came to me. Well, I thought sometimes doing something crazy really does pay off.

[C]

I was so uncomfortable in the lead up to that story. Chelsea.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, what did you think of the ending? Because she forces Brian to give her the part via. I don't know what is nepotism when it's like, I used to act with you and now you owe me one because of my daughter's in the biz and I'm not. I don't know, whatever that is.

[C]

Yeah, it's just. It just demonstrates her control and not allowing her daughter to, like, be comfortable or herself or the career to happen in the way that it's gonna naturally. I mean, I don't know. Right? Like. Yeah, in terms of, like, how we don't know how Hayden's career would have progressed if it weren't for her mom. At the same time, it's shit like this that you're just like, should. Brian Cranston said she's Bad for the role. You should honor that.

[B]

Well, also, like. Like, it's so embarrassing to be a kid being like, I'm not getting this for my talent.

[C]

Yeah, I just heard it.

[B]

I just heard you all say that. And how much that informs your identity. The idea of, like, that type of scheming, how the business works. And she does give her mom full credit for her career constantly. And how much better would her life be had this career not happened? And at one point, her dad comes to her and he says, babe, let's take a few years off. How about no acting? And you can just be a little kid for a while. Because she's getting bullied at school. She doesn't have. And Hayden says she cries and is like, dad, no, I love what I do. And that she didn't realize this and her dad didn't realize this, but this is where she got all her love and attention from the world, but also from her mom. And this is where her identity had been formed. So as a kid, she fought for it, and her dad listens to her. And then they decide to homeschool her at one point. But it is so sad seeing that moment where her dad knew this was bad for her, but then she fought to keep it. Cause she was a kid and thought it was what she wanted.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Cause at one point, she does say, like, acting and performing equals love, because it gets her the attention that she's looking for. Acting was where I got praise. Acting was where I got love. That's what she says in the book.

[B]

And that's what a lot of child stars say in their books, that they get so much attention and validation and things that you're supposed to get for being a kid in life, they're getting from acting, and you need those things. And so then they just tie their identities to acting.

[C]

And especially when it's like, with the way she describes how her mom coaches her this idea of, like, her mom is so proud that Hayden can, like, internalize the scene at such a young age. Five, six, seven years old. And can riff in that way and, you know, cry on cue. It's almost like she was never gonna have a chance to be a little kid.

[B]

She was never gonna have a chance to be a fully formed human being. Yeah. I kept thinking to myself, she never had a chance. She never had a chance. Everything I read. So then they're down in Florida hanging out with her mom's sister, and her mom comes in. She plopped unsteadily onto a bar stool and closed her eyes. And then Burst into tears. Oh, my God, she cried. It's Skip. This is how I learned her dad's name was Skip. I said, this really colors things. It's Skip. I was just on the phone with him and he told me he's been having an affair. I don't know what to do. An affair. I put down my book, sat back in my chair, and felt my stomach turn. Dad cheated on mom. I thought, how could he do such a thing? And then she's like, oh, Hayden, I didn't realize you were listening. And then tells Hayden every detail. Cries to her, complains to her, is always like, your dad this, your dad this. And then she says, the truth is, if it hadn't been for heroes, my parents probably would have split up for good. Not long after mom and I returned home, I got a call that sent my family off on the road to second chances. So this is how young she is. This is how much is happening. And when she gets heroes, her very toxic parents decide to stay married and the entire family moves to la.

[C]

I just felt so bad for her.

[B]

I feel so bad for her.

[C]

It's not her job to manage her parents emotions and they don't understand that. At least her mother didn't understand that from the perception she's giving us in the book.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, I understand wanting to like, share how you're feeling and like, you know, you're a dad, that's this horrible thing. But there's a way to present it to your child who has a completely different relationship with that parent than you do.

[B]

Yeah. Oh my gosh.

[C]

And also having to have this realization that your dad isn't this perfect person that you had put on a pedestal. So, like navigating that alone. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like that was already gonna be a lot.

[C]

That was already gonna be a lot. And there's no real mention of whether or not she and Jansen talk about it or have any sort of connection about, like, how do you feel about what dad's done? Like any of that. So essentially she's dealing yet again with a huge traumatic event for someone who's 16.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

By herself.

[B]

By herself, yeah. And Jansen doesn't get mentioned in. What am I gonna say in all of the context always. So it's really good to remember there's a little brother here who, reading between the lines, is hugely neglected.

[C]

Five years younger. Like, that's a big age, Matt.

[B]

Always with Hayden, Always flying with Hayden. Like, this little kid isn't getting a lot of parental attention either.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. It just broke my Heart. I hate when kids are put in a position like that at any age. You could be 11, you could be 41. I hate when kids are put in a position in that way where their parents are like, here's the nitty truth and raw everything. And you're like, no, no, no, no. You're still my mom. Oh.

[B]

And they're like, no, I'm not. You be my mom.

[C]

You're like, okay, I don't have the skill set for that, but okay, I'll try.

[B]

Okay. Okay, I'll try and break down later. So this is how the next chapter starts. In 2006, I purchased a condo in West Hollywood with my own money. It had two floors, three bedrooms and two bathrooms, which I figured was just enough room for me, my parents, Jansen, and our two cats and dog. It was not the custom built 4300 square foot house we'd enjoyed in New York, but we could make it work. We had to make it work. My parents got the master bedroom and I took one of the other bedrooms. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I said, what a way to word that. You are now the breadwinner of your family. And they had you buy them a house. House like this. What do you mean? They got the primary bedroom. That's their house. But it's. But it is your house, and it is with your own money.

[C]

Whose name is on the deed? That's what I wrote down. Whose name is on the deed?

[B]

I. I was just like, I'm glad she's telling us this. She wants us to know she's writing it in the way of, like, hey, look at this. But she's not writing the part where she says, isn't that fucked?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so you just feel it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

She says. On September 25, 2006, Heroes premiered and 14.3 million people tuned in to watch. The PIL was a slam dunk for NBC. For comparison, Monday Night Football gets lower ratings most weeks. This took me back to that moment when Heroes exploded onto the scene. And she said, when it became a juggernaut, I was all of 17. From that moment on, there was a target plastered on my thighs, meaning she becomes tabloid fodder at 17 years old with the family you have just heard us describe raising her and being her quote, support system. And this leads to the next paragraph, which is, I started Dave. I started dating Stephen Coletti from Laguna beach, which you think is. I'm like, oh, that's bad. And then she says, I didn't really watch the show, but I'd Seen Stephen in a magazine and asked our publicist to hook us up. I said, oh, you didn't even, like, stumble into this. You procured it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What'd you think of this relationship? And did you have memories of it?

[C]

I said, oh, I forgot she dated an age appropriate person. I'm so happy that that happened at least once in her life. It's so sad that Steven is, like,

[B]

the best relationship in this book. Right.

[C]

And then when she was, like, you know, talking about the relationship and how he was, like, helping her navigate how to deal with tabloids, of course he knew, because I. I don't know about you, but I was sat for Laguna beach, the real OC And I was sat for the Hills, like. Like that. And so when she was mentioning Ledoux, I was like, yes, Ledoux. We were all there at the club. We were all there at the club. Ladue Hayden, we know what you're talking about.

[B]

And no, I was. I was not Laguna Beach. It was not the Hills. And I'm still shook by this decision that a famous actress would be like, I know I should date him. Of all the people. But, you know, she's 17. I mean, my God, the choices I made then. Like, you know, you don't make good choices then.

[C]

And he was a little cutie back then. I'm sure he is now, but he's a grown man now, so.

[B]

Yeah. Well, she said right around this time, a paparazzi photographer once snapped a photo of me in a pair of cutoffs leaning over a counter so that you could see the back of my thighs. A magazine published it with a banner over my legs featuring one word. Cellulite. So again, she's 17. Which culture already teaches young women to hate your bodies, let alone having a picture of you plastered across a magazine that says cellulite? Like, brick. Brick, Brick, Brick, Brick. Another brick. Yeah, I just. Just devastated for her.

[C]

And there's no. I got the sense, too, there was never going to be any reinforcement from her mom about how beautiful she is and how her body is her body and, you know. You know, all the body positivity stuff that kind of course corrected after this era. But it. She's 5:2, right? She mentions frequently that she's tiny. Like, her words, not mine.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so to the point of, like, body dysmorphia of this idea that someone five two should have. I. I don't know. It just really. I'm still dealing with stuff like that. Right? Like, I'm still trying to detangle myself from some of that stuff too. Because it's like, what do you mean someone who's five two isn't allowed to have cellulite? Like, what do you think a 5:2 person's supposed to look like?

[B]

I also think it's like, we were raised of, like, oh, what you really don't want to get is cellulite. And what we should have been raised with is, everyone has cellulite. What do you mean, not get it?

[C]

It's.

[B]

We all have it. It. It exists. Why is there a word for it?

[C]

Shut the up, right?

[B]

What are you talking about, not get it? Hey, we hope you don't have knees one day. Okay. Like, yeah, I just feel. I just feel so much pain for her. And then she goes back a year and says at 16 years old, when she was hitting red carpets, her publicist would give her pills to get her down the red carpet. And she said she had a lot of social anxiety and couldn't really work a room. But when she took these pills, she felt great. And she says, assume there was some type of amphetamine. When she asked where to get them, the PR girl said, Mexico. And she was just handed them. She didn't say, like, I'm nervous. What do I do? The woman said, take this, you'll do better down there. Down there, meaning down the red carpet. And just got her own pills.

[C]

Which, like, that's. I don't. I. That's how I felt the whole time. It was just like, I just, where's your mother? Not like she would have done anything. Yeah.

[B]

And you know what? She might have been right there.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So she's on Heroes, she's clubbing. Stephen just, you know, leaves the picture at some point. And then she's like, Paris Hilton was like a sister to me. I really looked up to Lindsay Lohan, who could, like, work a room. She's like, I had a little crush on Milo, which is Milo Ventimiglia, who was on Heroes, who was what, 30. He was 30. She said, I had a crush on him since the show started, so. Since she was 17. But we were friends and nothing more. Uh huh. Milo was 30. And then I had just turned 18. Something was in the air in Europe. Maybe it was the sights or the food or the fact that everyone fell all over us, but I felt dizzy with joy. And it seemed so did Milo. Over the course of our world tour, our friendship turned to flirtation. And just like that, we became a thing. And Julia, for anyone who didn't watch the show, please tell listeners what role Milo played.

[C]

He Was her uncle.

[B]

Yeah, because he's uncle age.

[C]

Huh?

[B]

He's uncle age. And. And she's high school cheerleader age. Sir to all sirs out there. 30 years old and up. What do you mean you dated an 18 year old? What do you mean you wanted to date a child?

[C]

Yeah, literal. Literal child. And, like, she did the thing that they always do, which is say, well, nothing happened before I was 18. And I'm like, I'm so sorry, Hayden. I don't believe you.

[B]

I don't believe you. I don't believe you at all. Ugh, this is so painful. Okay, so she said at some point after I turned 18, so, you know, they've only been in LA, like a year and a half, two years. She turns 18 and she says, I think it's time I get my own place. Her mom says, where are you gonna go?

[C]

Go?

[B]

I said, I think I'm gonna go buy a house somewhere I can spread out and have friends over. Don't worry, I'll be close. Are you going to sell this place? Mom asked. No, mom, of course not. You guys live here as. It's so weird for the mom to even present it as Hayden's choice, too. I mean, clearly she's bankrolling you. She said Heroes Neutrogena were keeping food on the table and a roof over our heads. This is when her dad had decided to become a golf pro, by the way. So I think she's just paying for everything. And. And she said, you know, everything. I knew everything was going to be fine. We were still going to be a family. And the next paragraph is Milo coming in to tell Hayden that her dad's been arrested and she's going to have to go bail him out of jail. So she takes a big chunk to say, like, domestic violence should always be taken seriously. And there's some stories that are going to come later that really show how seriously it should be taken. And she talks a lot about, like, I. I am not making light of domestic violence. And then she says, however, violence within families and between intimate partners is also a complex and personal issue. Because of this, I refuse to judge or comment on other people's situations or experiences. I respect their privacy and dignity, and I ask that others respect mine. Family dynamics aren't always healthy, and mine were no exception. And then she's like, my. My family's Italian, sometimes means I love you. We love to fight and be loud. I said, oh, don't put that in the same paragraph.

[C]

I literally was like, I got, I got, I got An Italian side, too, Hayden. And guess what? We don't punch each other. And I think there's a lot of

[B]

Italians out there that would be like, hey, don't follow up domestic violence with, like, but we're Italian. Like, do that.

[C]

Yeah, don't do that.

[B]

She said, the paparazzi lined the streets and flew helicopters over my house and condo and reported that at 4am my mom called 911 from my condo. When the police came, she told them that dad had struck her across the face two or three times. Dad wasn't home, but when he returned, they arrested him on the spot and charged him with felony domestic assault. Okay, I'm gonna read you the whole story. Dad later told me that the trouble started before he and mom had left this gala that she was at, speaking about Saving the whales, which is an organization that she's worked with for a long time and was actually probably the most beautiful part of the book, the Whaleman event. And she said mom recognized a guy in the room and saw he was with a woman who was not his wife. And she was like, you need to say something to that man that he should not be cheating on his wife. Clearly playing out some sort of like, hey, remember, you cheated on me. If you tell that man he shouldn't be cheating, that will appeal the fact that you once cheated on me. Me. I think that's what I was reading into it. And he's like, no, I'm not gonna go talk to him. She's like, then I will. So then she goes over and she's like, sir, you shouldn't be cheating on your wife. Then the guy is like, you, you stupid B word or whatever he said. She comes back over to Skip and is like, that man was so rude to me. You should go fight him. And he's like, I told you not to yell at that man. I mean, this is just so twisted. They are both wasted. They go home. Her mom, according to how Hayden writes it, is like, talk to me. Talk to me. Let's talk about this. He goes to sleep in the other room. She pulls the covers off him, and then she writes, dad stood up. Mom approached. Dad balled up his fist, placed it against Mom's face, and said, get out of my way. If I don't get out of here right now, I'm afraid I might hit you. Mom backed off. Then dad ran out of the condo, got into his car, and drove to my house. When he saw that Milo's car was in the driveway, he returned home just in time for the Police. Police to arrest him. Mom instantly regretted calling the cops. And when dad came home from jail, she begged him for forgiveness. She tried to get the charges dropped. The next things that she writes don't really make a lot of sense to me in how domestic violence cases work. Like why her dad would plead no contest when really he was not guilty and that her mom had completely lied about it. And I, Yeah, it's all just.

[C]

Just.

[B]

I don't even know what to make of it other than I don't think Hayden's willing to see the domestic violence within her own family.

[C]

I, I agree with you on that. I think that she's not aware or wasn't aware. And I think that this was the point in the book when I thought, oh, was mom using Hayden to stay out of the house for a lot of other reasons. Like whatever they are, we don't know what they are. We don't know the relationship. But this is the first time she's giving us any picture of turmoil other than like when the.

[B]

The affair.

[C]

The affair which felt out of the blue through Hayden's eyes. But then you get this story and you're like, okay, so this maybe might have been a fraught relationship the entire time.

[B]

That's what I took from it. I was like, oh, you're away for months at a time shooting remember the Titans. One parent is with you at a time. Maybe she didn't see it because what I read to that is that there's been domestic violence in this house this

[C]

entire time, the whole time.

[B]

That's where you realize like, oh, oh. I don't think Hayden means to be an unreliable narrator. I don't even know if she knows how much of an unreliable narrator she is or I think that composited with not wanting to hurt her parents even more than this book is already gonna hurt them. She hit a lot. I don't know which one it is.

[C]

Yeah, it could be all three.

[B]

And then the next chapter is titled Room 23. So hold on to that for a second. But then she talks about mom managed my earnings up to that point. Yet I never felt we communicated enough about them that made me resent her. Recently, she and I had been pitching movies together and I decided to tell her that the cleavage bearing boho tops she wore to meetings were too risque. No parent wants to be told how to dress by the child, so it made her resent me. She got upset when I didn't invite her to certain industry parties. Grand gross. And I got upset when she wanted to stay too long at those industry parties. And so at one point she brings her into her trailer at Heroes and said, I don't want you to be my manager anymore. I just want you to be my mom. My mom picked up her purse, clenched her jaw and looked straight at me. You owe me, she answered. Then she turned around and walked out of my trailer. When I heard the click of the door, I took a deep breath and then burst into tears. I knew I'd done the right thing, but I sensed something in me had died. And so now, going back to this, the title of the chapter is room 23. This is a 1, 2, 3, 4, 4 and a half page chapter. This is the last paragraph of the chapter. She needed her makeup done for an event, but the makeup artist who usually helped her was at this other photo shoot. And the makeup artist, Annie is like, come over to this photo shoot. I'll do your makeup. But then you can go. And the photo shoot ends up being for some book called Room 23. And when she gets there, they're like, hey, why don't you be in the book? And the person telling her to be in the book is Diana Jenkins. And this is the last paragraph of the chapter. Diana was tall, blond and striking with warm brown eyes and the kind of gravity defying breasts that wealthy women in LA pay good money to get. I'd only just met her, but her charisma in command of the room pulled me right into her orbit. Carpet. Annie had told me about her background. Diana was from Bosnia, but had fled to London during the siege of Sarajevo. There she married a banker and later moved to la. She was now a fixture on the social circuit and had just launched a line of beverages called Nero. That's like, that's the end. And so reading it, I was like, this is the weirdest chapter in the world. What is this chapter? Did you at this point know what was going on? Because it took me a while.

[C]

No.

[B]

Yeah. And this is why half the book, I think, is extremely well written in that someone in here, either the ghost or Hayden, is leaving us a map, messages, Easter eggs and hidden patterns for us to know the truth. And half the book is horrifically written because why is the chapter about her dumping her mom as her manager, her lifelong child manager, called room 23, when room 23 is the book she's in, that is Diana Jenkins book. That's like. Seems to be a random photography story in the book. Just hold on to these details. Let me go into the next chapter. The next chapter is called Penguin Pajamas and Private jets. She starts the chapter being like, I am under Diana Jenkins spell. She's like, your photos were so beautiful. When can we get dinner? She said, I had plenty of friends my own age, a boyfriend, a dream job I loved, and a family I was mending fences with as best I could. But I crave, craved attention and adoration. I was far better known to the public than Diana, but her personality dominated mine. She gave people orders, smiled, and made them feel welcome. She worked her magic, manipulated and generated attention. And I tried to be straightforward and genuine. Our good cop, bad cop routine worked, and I never once felt like Diana undermined me. We complimented each other. Diana was 30 years older than me. And while I've always been mature for my age, a gross sentence that should never be written because it's never true. It's always just like, this child's being manipulated. I'd been mature for my age. It's impossible to overlook it. Okay. She's like, it's a weird friendship, but I really liked her. Next paragraph. My relationship with Milo was heading into its second year. But one day they both go to a party, a hero's party. And an exec at NBC on Heroes pecks her on the lips when he says hello to her, which is egregious and disgusting.

[C]

So inappropriate.

[B]

Why is an executive kissing an actress on the lips? Any actress, let alone the 18 year old one playing a cheerleader on your show.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Then she tells Milo, like, isn't that guy gross? He pecked me on the lips. This story is framed as Milo lost it for no reason. Now, Milo may have been losing it for no reason at other things, but I said, he's correct.

[C]

He's correct.

[B]

I'm really not on your side here.

[C]

Also in that part too, I was like, there is some irony in the man who is, you know, 15 years older than he being mad. Like, but that's, you know, absolutely.

[B]

That's another old man took advantage of you then. And she's kind of framing as that is, like, maybe he's been really domineering and jealous and possessive of her. She just happens to tell a story that does require protection and consequences. Yeah. So then she's in penguin pajamas and he's like, I'd like to break up with you. Penguin pajamas. Like, she had footies on her, like covering her feet. There's a five two woman in penguin pajamas at Milo's house. And he's like, I don't want to date you anymore. And then she says she cries like a teenager. And he's like, I changed my mind. And then a week later is like, no, I do want to break up with you. And then her relationship is over and she's absolutely fucking dusty. Stated. And then the next chapter is titled the Heavyweight Champion of the World and it's gonna go into Vlad. Okay, I actually can't take it anymore. I really wanted to walk people through what this book does to you and do what the book did to me and Julia to the listeners. But I actually can't do it anymore, Julia. And I'm bailing on it. And I. And I just. I just have to start telling everyone what's fucking happening. So clearly when she breaks up with her mom as manager, she's trying to say Diana of came in and took this really vulnerable place in my life as my momager. But she does not say that. She just gives the chapter an incorrect title. Yep, that book that she posed for has a lot of rumors around it. I'm going to read something right now from the Internet, a blind item that I could have used. This is a alleged rumor on the Internet that other people posted that I am just reading. It's from Northeast Housewives and says Diana wrote the book Room 23, which was for her charity, a book of pictures of starlets in lingerie in room 23 of an LA apartment in 2008. It was really a book of her call girls for potential suitors. Very dark stuff. And there's long been these accusations that Diana denies. And Julia, at this point, I still hadn't realized that Diana Jenkins was the same Diana on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.

[C]

Oh, how does that make you feel, Chelsea?

[B]

I am a broken shell of a person connecting these dots. Because what happens in the book is. That's it. Everything that I just told you about Diana is done in the book. We never come back to her. And I was like, in the book I'm writing, why the fuck did she talk about her friendship with Diana? This is so weird. She's like, I became friends with a woman named Diana. People thought it was weird, Moved on, Never, never, ever speaks about her in the book again. And I was like, that was so weird. Why did she tell us that? And Diana, who, if you also watched Housewives of Beverly Hills, she was like, I was a refugee and suddenly got famous. And now she's like, having a child with that guy named Asher who would sing for all the women like this. This was a villainous woman on the season and had this friendship with Hayden. And people have been alleging and accusing Diana and Hayden's mom of trafficking her sexually. Again, these are alleged allegations and rumors that have been denied, but those are the rumors that have been going abound. And then in the middle of these chapters is talking about her relationship with Milo. So it's just really confusing.

[C]

It's very confusing. And then also it's like you made it a point to say this woman is almost 30 years older than you. So to me there was like, there's something about this situation that you understand and know was not right in your life that was happening. But I don't know if we're there yet.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Like I don't know if she's there yet and fully grasp and maybe it's too hard, maybe.

[B]

Or she's leaving hints, trails, Easter eggs and treasures for the readers to put together a truth she does not feel like she can publish.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Actually that's fully what I believe in this book. I believe she has left us a treasure map hidden in a haunted, terrible book. Because later in the book she's like, I made a friend, Stella McInnes, who was a 30 year old model my age and obviously this is a fake name. Tell everyone about this, this friendship with a woman who's not Diana.

[C]

It was just very odd because she does question this person, like, how does this woman have money? Like blah, blah. But she quickly becomes fast friend. Like she is bonded to this Stella person. Trust her whole heart like fully. But every time Stella says to her, trust me, Hayden's got a little flag going. Like I don't like the way that feels. And I'm like, yes, follow that feel feeling, you know, it gets to the point where at some point Stella invites her to her house for a party. So Hayden's like, yeah, I'm going to a party. This would be great. We're like 20, let's go to a party. Walks in. It's not a party, it's more of the size of a meeting. And it's mostly old men.

[B]

Old famous, wealthy, rich, celebrity men and her and Stella and that's it.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Yeah. Yep. And she doesn't say anything happens at the party except when she goes to leave because she has a weird feeling. She said a very, very, very famous actor who is older than her says, be careful over there, I got some gum on my suit. So like watch what you touch. Cause I got gum all over my suit. And she says, what? And he says, look, I got gum on my suit. And she looks down and his testicles are out. And he was like, ho, ho ho, Gotcha. These are My testicles. See you later, Twitter. And who do we think it is? We have no details beyond extremely famous at. When Hayden is 20. This is what, like, 2009? Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. And he's in his 50s. Like, she describes him as somebody in his 50s. So it was like, who in there? I couldn't figure it out. Or did I not? Maybe I didn't want to try and figure it out. I don't know.

[B]

We're gonna take your guesses on the Patreon. And she's like, huh, that was weird with Stella. Anyways. And then she's having a really hard time on Heroes. She's also like, the writing on Heroes sucks.

[C]

Chelsea. The amount of times I was like, writers strike. Like, why are you acknowledging. Okay, go ahead, girl. If she did not acknowledge that there

[B]

was a giant writer strike in 2007,

[C]

didn't it last over a year? Yes, girlfriend. That's a huge. Okay. All right. It's your book.

[B]

And I will say she hates the writers and the writing on Heroes. She hates the writers and the writing on Nashville. I will get to Nashville in a minute. And here's the thing. Say what you need to say about the shows you starred in. However, if you are gonna go that hard at the writing, maybe the book should be written well. It's almost as if writing's really hard, huh? Especially under weird circumstances that everyone was, this is me. I just listen. I'm a writer, and I'm just. I'm feeling a little like, whoa.

[C]

She's really.

[B]

I don't think she realizes how many other forces go into what happens on a TV show. Maybe, like, I don't think she realized. Anyways. Okay, then. And I just want everyone to know this is throughout the book. We are creating a cohesive story and timeline for you that does not exist in the book. Later, at some point, she's really struggling on Heroes. Stella's like, come to my yacht. Let's spend the summer in France. It's going to be great. And Hayden really needs a break. She's estranged from France, her family. Maybe her mom's asking her for money. She's broken up with Milo. She's already met this other guy. We'll get into later. But maybe they're broken or they haven't started dating yet. She goes to France. She gets to the yacht, and she's like, how is this yacht so big? Because Stella doesn't make this kind of money. And the yacht, she said, is like, oligarch yacht. She's like, this isn't adding up. And she says she's having a great time on the yacht until one day, Stella's like, come downstairs. I want you to meet someone. And basically walks her into a room with a very famous again musician who is naked, and she puts her into bed with him. Like, here, you're gonna do some sex work now. See you later. And Hayden says once Stella is gone, she is like, this isn't happening. And flees, and then is stuck on this yacht with people who are again trafficking her people, meaning Stella. She says the musician is 30s and British. I also. That could be real. And she's leading us to the truth. She could also be saying that specifically because he's American and 50s and she doesn't want legal trouble.

[C]

Right.

[B]

What did you think? Who do you think this was?

[C]

I didn't want to think about who it was because reading the story and then also combined with the way that she was treated by the paparazzi was just so much. We have this sort of glamorization that we're doing for the early 2000s, the 2010s of like, oh, wasn't it a simpler time before social media to all that shit? Right. It was the reminder. I feel like I needed to be like, yeah, actually, this shit isn't any better now. Like, we want to feel like it is, but it's not. This wasn't that long ago, and I'm deeply uncomfortable. Like, we have people fighting for all the things to be, whatever the state of our country, it's not great. And all this stuff. And I'm just like, this is the reminder of kind of where we are now, like, why we're here. Because, like, people were doing this stuff to people like Hayden and also unknown.

[B]

It's like, now you can see it. It was happening back then. Now because of social media and books like this, you can. And because they finally unleashed the Epstein vows. You can see it, but it was there in that nostalgic time. Yeah, I think. I think what's so painful is that Hayden even now doesn't feel like she can say who this is. Not just the guy, but also Stella.

[C]

Right, right.

[B]

Who's clearly a pseudonym now. When she finally gets out of the yacht, she's like, I just wanted to get away from Stella. And that's what led me to reconnect with Vlad, who is going to be the father of her child. What we talk about next in this episode, she met Vlad at a packed restaurant in Beverly hills for Room 23's launch party, which is Diana's party now. Many People have speculated online that with Diana's character in the book just going away and this Stella character coming in and all these stories happening with her, there is online speculation that Diana and Stella are actually one person, that all the stories about Stella are actually Diana is something that has been alleged and speculated about online. And Diana has come out with a statement immediately through her lawyer saying unequivocally, I am not Stella. I did not do those things, and anyone who says so will be sued. So I will just be put that out there, the rumors and things that are being alleged and absolutely denied. And we'll see you in the Patreon comments. So then Hayden has met the heavyweight champion of the world, which is Vladimir, at the book 23 party at the. And when she's having problems with Stella, she's like, you know who was really cool to me? Vlad. I should get back in touch with him. Him. And when she met him, the day she met Vlad, 24 hours had passed from Milo breaking up with her. Milo breaks up with her. She flies to New York, goes to this party, and meets Vlad. Now, I want Julia to tell the meet cute of Hayden and Vlad, because I did get a voice note on Instagram from Julia saying, I think it's really cute how they vet. And I said, I'm gonna make you say that story on a podcast then, because you're the romance girly.

[C]

I do want to preface it that I did remove myself out of every other thing about this story to enjoy the meet cute.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Because. Because it does. When you put all the layers back, it is a little cloudy, and I don't like it, but I loved it.

[B]

All right, tell.

[C]

Okay through it. They're at the room 23 party. She's with the friend. They're talking to this guy. She's like, I don't really want to be talking to this guy anymore. Let's go to the bathroom. And the friend's like, sure, let's go. As they're walking to the bathroom, remember she herself says, she's tiny. Right? She's five two. She's so little. They're walking to the bathroom. Somehow she literally walks into the chest of a man. I'm sorry. That is straight from a romance novel. We all know that's true. That has been in many. And I. I love it.

[B]

Walking into the chest of a man because you're so teeny tiny and he is so big.

[C]

I love that romance trope. I'm so sorry. I love it. I love it. But also, you know, if she was 5, 8. They would still make her run into Chest of a Man. Okay. Just putting it out there. So she jumps back and she's like, oh, my. Like, you're huge. And he's like, you're so tiny. Tiny. Yeah.

[B]

Sorry. Had to.

[C]

It's great. I loved it. And so then she's like. Her friend's like, hayden, I still have to go to the bathroom. And she's like, no, I'm good.

[B]

And that's how they met.

[C]

And that's how they met.

[B]

And then he says, if I got on my knees. Knees. You would still be taller than me. Okay, keep going.

[C]

So then he gets on his knees, which every man should get on their knees for a woman if they're hetero.

[B]

Within the first 30 seconds.

[C]

Within the first 30 seconds. It is mandatory. Now gets on his knees and he's still, what, like 4 inches taller than her? Yeah. Or something like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And she's like. And he's like, yeah. I loved it. I loved it. I'm so sorry, everybody.

[B]

I loved it, and I'm so happy for you. And I wanted you to go first because I want people who. Who to have that enjoyment if they want to have it.

[C]

I also. Can I add one more thing? I also loved the way it was written about in the book, because the rest of her daughter's life, she has this beautiful story that she can reflect on about how her parents met.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Because we're gonna say, I think it's fucking disgusting. I think it is so disgusting to be like him. Be like, you teeny, tiny baby, let's date. It's disgusting. He's so much older than her.

[C]

And that's what I'm saying.

[B]

Physically older than her. And, like, everything is wrong. Everything is wrong.

[C]

That's why you have to remove all the layers, Chelsea. Because when you get back into reality, when you remember it's not a romance novel and you are not reading a book, but by some famed romance person, let's just say Ali Hazelwood. It's horrific, because he's horrific. Fifteen years older than her. He's older than Milo. He is older than Milo.

[B]

He's older than Uncle. And this is the other thing. I am a 58 woman. And I am a 58 woman that if you ask anyone who knows me, they're like, how tall do you think Chelsea is? They'll say six. They'll say six feet. Like, I'm a 58 woman who presents as six feet. I guess because of my domineering personality. Yo, go find some five Eight and up. Go. Like, how. What is going on? Go find a woman who. A tall woman for your tall ass self to at least have some sort of physical compatibility. But really loving, tiny, widdle baby is so gross to me for her and him. Okay, so now here's what I want to say. Moments before that, she'd almost hooked up with another older man. Much older man. And she said, we were about to hook up and go at it. And he was so, like, hot and charming that I had to walk away. This is when she runs into Vlad. For a million dollars, listeners. Who was it? Who was it? You're going to scream. You're going to hate it. Think of all the many memoirs we've gone through and a man that we all think think is gross. It was Anthony Kiedis from the Red Hot Chili peppers at room 23's launch party at. I don't know. What is he here? I'm gonna guess 50. I don't care if I'm correct or wrong. He feels like 50 here. And he was trying to fuck Hayden, and Hayden was gonna go for it because Hayden's going through some things. Okay, let's get back on track here. So they exchanged numbers that night, and they just kind of text. Then the yacht thing happens. Then she's like, you know who I need to be back with? I need to be back with Vlad. Because the one time they hung out and went on a date, Hayden had taken him clubbing, and he didn't understand why people were screaming Hayden's name and taking pictures of her. He was like, wait, who are you? And she was like, I told you, I'm an actress. He's like, oh, you're really famous. And here I want a new Dringo, which is lame. Man doesn't know woman is famous. And to famous woman plagued by fame. It's the most romantic thing that's ever happened to her.

[C]

It's a romance trope.

[B]

It's already a romance trope.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I would call it a broken pathology in women leading them into horrible relationships. It's interesting that a romance trope was something I was pulling out as a red flag in multiple memoirs. Like, Rita Moreno is like, this man doesn't know who I am. I'll marry him. And 40 years later, she's like, that's the worst marriage of my life. Okay, so Vlad also has something else happening that I constantly call out as a red flag, which is English. As a second language becomes the barrier. You need to fall in love, because if you could communicate to each other, you would not be together. And this is how many relationships on 90 Day Fiance find themselves at the altar. Not just English as a second language. If you do not speak their language, like, whatever the language barrier is, having it is what allows you to fall in love. Love. Because you will only have, like, 10 words to exchange. Is this also a romance trope?

[C]

If it is, I'm not aware. And someone can tell us. I did think she was kind of unnecessarily harsh about their language barrier. I don't know.

[B]

Really? I was sort of like, I'm so glad you're letting us know that you have no idea who he is and he don't know who you are. He literally doesn't know who you are. And you guys cannot communicate. Yeah, you're not. You're not even having full sentences. But she said they would leave Skype on at every. Every hour of the day.

[C]

No, I don't like it. I don't like it.

[B]

Also saying what? Saying what, you guys.

[C]

Yeah, but she would say things like, you know, oh, we'd be with those friends, and no one would, like, clue me in.

[B]

And she would go and visit him, and he'd have full dinners and then just speaking to his friends, and no one would tell her what was happening. And this is when she said, she starts to drink more and more and more just to get through these nights. He's also never coming to visit her. She's almost always going over to Ukraine or Germany, and he is the heavyweight champion of the world. She's fallen into all these fights, and it's just all built on long distance and longing and also an age gap and also a language gap.

[C]

Cultural gap, too. Yes.

[B]

So much is happening. At one point, one thing happens to her where a wife who speaks English turns to her and says in a loving way. Like, in that she wasn't trying to be mean, but she was trying to help her when she said, there's nothing a Ukrainian man hates more than a drunk woman. As the Ukrainian men around them are getting drunk. So that's up. And I think this is Hayden's way of saying not only did her alcohol use become a problem for her, but probably a problem for him in a weird, patriarchal way on top of everything else.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So they break up and get back together all the time. She then dates Scotty McKnight. And that's just like a paragraph.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

She's just like, I. And then she's like, and I love. And I said, what? You loved a whole man and broke up with him in one paragraph. Okay, whatever. So then she's like, now I'm on the show Nashville. And I thought the way she wrote about this was really odd because I think she was already just in a really. Everything we've described has already happened pre Nashville. Take that in. And also, she's 20.

[C]

Yeah, she's 20.

[B]

At this point in the story, she's 20 years old. She talks about how maybe she was pitted against Connie Britton in the show Nashville as like, Reyna was supposed to be the only lead and maybe Juliet was a surprise as a second lead, which is interesting. And then she talks about that relationship, as in, like, hoping that Connie knows how much she loved and respected her. To which I say, this is so odd because you worked together for years and you surely could have told her yourself, but something very weird has happened. She has her assistant here who is her best friend.

[C]

You can't be friends with people. You pay.

[B]

Her best friend. Also her assistant, Ally, who you realize later when she talks about Ally's wedding and she talks about the bridesmaids and she's not one of them. You've realized they've had a falling out. And then also here, her only friend in the cast, Jonathan Jackson. And do you remember Jonathan Jackson from the other episode you were a guest on? Will you tell the people who Jonathan Jackson is, Julia?

[C]

I mean, he's lucky from General Hospital, but besides that.

[B]

And he's Avery in Nashville.

[C]

And he's Avery in Nashville, but he is who the Internet thinks is a character in Bethany Joy Lenz's book on when she wrote about being in that high controlled religious environment. He was hurt. He was kind of of the supposedly allegedly the gateway into that cult.

[B]

And when Bethany talked about the high ranking members of this cult and there were like 10 of them and they were characters in the book. She also described a photo they were all in once, and Jonathan Jackson was in that photo. So that's the speculation. So her friend, her only friend on Nashville is also struggling in a cult of his own. Alleged. Possibly not.

[C]

Great.

[B]

Okay. There's so much. I can't believe how much more has to happen.

[C]

This poor girl.

[B]

So at one point, she's vacationing with Vlad and he's like, look, I booked us a pirate ship. I would die an actual pirate ship. She's like, I really wish you wouldn't have done that. And then they're on the pirate ship instead of, I guess like a yacht or a boat. And he's always on his phone. That's A lot in this book. And she says, why am I choosing you over a career and work when you are still continuing to work when I'm coming to see you and be on vacation with you? And that was really the moment where she said, like, I could have had a career. And instead I kept going to visit Vlad during my breaks from the show. Now at some point, they decide to get married. She is on the COVID of a bridal magazine before the wedding happened. Then he calls the wedding off. Then they're back and forth, and then she gets pregnant. Then an entire chapter is written about this bird nest by her pool. And I gotta tell you, I hated this so much. I hated this more than anything. I don't know why it's in the goddamn book.

[C]

It's supposed to be her metaphor, Chelsea.

[B]

Fuck this metaphor. Listen, humans make me sad. Animals make me sad like I'm a baby. But it's just this devastating story about this mama bird with her eggs that she's protecting. And all the eggs fall in the pool and break, and Hayden doesn't know why, and she just. And the bird is like, devastated and flying in circles. And she keeps thinking, mama bird, it's not your fault. It's not your fault, mama bird. This is the. This is really written out to be her metaphor. And then later, when she's pregnant with Kya and they think her bones might not be growing, she said she thinks of that mama bird, but then her bones are growing and it's fine. So what. What is. What's the metaphor?

[C]

I. I think it's for later.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I think it's. I truly do. I really think it's for later when it starts to get all messy with Vlad.

[B]

And I'm really looking at you, editor and ghostwriter, like we've really put the metaphor in the wrong place. Also in the metaphor, the eggs are destroyed. And in the chapter she's telling us Kaya is great, fine and good. So anyways, she goes through debit. First off, she's pregnant alone. She's raising the child alone. She's like, vlad is there every now and then. She's really alone. She goes to Hawaii to give birth. Just with Allie. I mean, it's all so sad. And then she has Kya and she has severe postpartum depression. And Vlad tells her happiness is a choice. And she starts drinking and using, using drugs to try and get through this intense depression to the point where one day at six in the morning and she's trying to get drunk before she has to go to work at Nashville and realizes, oh, my gosh, I need to take myself to rehab. And I think one of the reasons she wanted to write this book was to change narratives that, like, other people brought her into rehab. Other people had to have an intervention where she said, no, I knew I needed this and sought help. She also hates the Nashville writers because she said my life was a mess, or as the writers in Nashville would call it, award winning drama, and that they began to model the show off of the things happening in her life, which she then has to act out and play out in the show, and that it's very devastating and traumatizing. And also she nods to stories like falling asleep, because once she gets out of rehab, they put her on Klonopin, which is what happened to Stevie Nicks. And she said she went in addicted to one substance and came out addicted to another. And then she, like falls asleep on set and misses set days. And everyone starts getting mad at her as she has her child, Kaya, and her relationship starts falling apart with Vlad because Vlad will not come to the United States. Kaya goes back and forth between them every three months. And then they meet up together and she says the relationship is falling apart, but they're not broken up. And when she goes to Ukraine to get Kaya and take her back for her three month stint with their child and they're still together, he meets her at a coffee shop and hands her papers to sue for custody and basically says, I don't trust you with our child and your friends have been calling me and they don't trust you with the child because of your alcohol and drug use. She says, what friends? She never writes the answer in the book. And then she says she signs the papers because they were in Ukraine and she has no other options. I don't know enough about international child law to know what to say here, but I do know enough to know that you didn't have to sign.

[C]

Right, Right.

[B]

And I think maybe she thought it would be better for Kyan and doesn't know how to write that.

[C]

Yeah, I got the sense when she was writing about the custody stuff too, because I only have experience with custody stuff in the state of California. I don't know how it looks internationally either. But I got the sense that she understood even though she hated the decision to sort of relinquish some, like, physical and legal custody, it was the right decision because she was battling her addiction and under. And plus, coupled with postpartum depression, like, that's hard. And like, even though she's alone.

[B]

And the only people around her are old, creepy freaks who prey on her, including her mom.

[C]

Exactly. And so she's like, having this, like. I understand her reaction of, like, what are you talking about? I'm fine. I have nannies, There can be this help, blah, blah, blah. But part of me feels like she had a realization of, like, maybe thinking back to the well when I wanted to drink at 6am versus checking on my baby.

[B]

Right, Right. And also, I. I am sure going through the court system in Ukraine, I'm sure he chose to specifically do that, specifically to sue her for custody. I think I. Taking a child to another continent when you're being sued, I think is she would not be able to, like, leave the country. She would have had to have stayed and fought that out. She. I. She notes that she could have fought back, but that it would have been horrible. But I just. Yeah, I think what you said is correct. I think she also knew that this was maybe the better decision. Even though Vladimir dad was a misogynist about the child. He'd be like, a baby needs her mom. I don't want to clean up the baby. I don't want to. Whatever. But they decided like that because he was sober, he was a better person for the child to be raised with.

[C]

Because it is hard. It's hard.

[B]

And he sued her. Asshole.

[C]

Yeah. Well, that's how it's done. Like, you sue for custody, and this is the part where it's like, there's boundaries, empathy, and grace that made me remind me of this book. Because, like, I'm not Vlad, but I am the Vlad in the situation.

[B]

Yeah, right. Where you had to be like, I'm taking custody.

[C]

And, like, it was very much like, okay, I know that you're not a bad person. I understand that. But. And again, the difference too, right? Like, I wasn't gonna be like, if whatever. The point is, is it is.

[B]

You know what it's like to be in that position.

[C]

Yes. Because it's really scary to think like, well, where are you taking my child? Who's driving? Why are you. You know, like, there's alcohol and drugs involved. Like, there's a part of your brain that kind of becomes this way of like, I know how to logically think about this, but I also have any logic. It's all emotion. Because.

[B]

Yeah. Because you care. Is for a safe child. And it's like, yes. And I. I think that decision of, like, keep the child safe is absolutely the correct one. I think all of the decisions leading up to it. He was Just ruining her life.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

Hayden's life.

[C]

Absolutely. Because she very clearly is struggling. And again, he just doesn't care. I fully wrote in the book, I was like, you don't want to be married, Vlad. You don't want to be with her. Stop this. This.

[B]

It's so painful. And so from there, you're like, okay, we've been through a lot. And then she's like, okay, after this, she gets back into alcohol use and drug use, loses her sobriety. And she said, I'm only going to spend three pages on the worst chapter of my life because that's all I can give you. But she gets into a relationship with a man named Brian. This is his real name. And it is a domestically violent relationship every step of the way for years and years and years. It is really intense violence that I'm not going to go into because I don't want to. But it. Yeah, it's physically extremely violent. She fights back a couple of times. He goes to jail for it. He. There's felony charges, charges against him. Finally, it happens, sadly, the way many domestic violence charges sometimes happen, which is that cops and other people take notes, notice. So, like, Hayden wasn't going to turn him in or call the cops or press charges. It happened almost against her will. But it's like, after all this, this woman walked into the Abbey. By the way, how do you walk into the Abbey and leave with the worst straight man in the world? The Abbey is like, this is supposed to be a gay haven in West Hollywood. It's a place I've spent lots of time at. She walked into the abbey, found a straight man, a tough one. Like, when you look at him, you're like, how did this happen? And then for years, doesn't act and is just stuck in this horrific relationship where she is being physically abused and never wants to tell Vlad. He uses Vlad against her. She's not with her daughter. And at the end of the chapter, she said, I did for Brian what I wish people would do for me. I forgave him. And she and Brian are still friends, and he is on TMZ giving interviews about this book. And I'm really conflicted about it. But I will say he said, everyone needs to read the book. Everyone needs to read my chapter actor. I didn't even know what domestic violence was, and maybe if I had been raised with knowledge of it, I wouldn't have ended up doing it. And everyone should, like, know this story.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

But then he says things like, I hope she marries me one day, and you're like, I.

[C]

Okay. I. I literally have no idea how to respond to that.

[B]

Yeah, that's a. That's a fair response. Yeah, it's a really. And, like, yeah, they're friends, and. And I. And I think it is really good information for a man to be out there saying, like, know this about me. Know this story. And also, like, with my upbringing and education, I wish. I wish men would be educated about it. Maybe I could have made different choices. Let me give you something else that's gonna be harder to comprehend. He's currently an AA and he has a group that he attends for men, and Shia LaBeouf leads it.

[C]

Oh, God.

[B]

And Shia LaBeouf is his, like, sponsor and man he looks up to. So then, okay, now we're at the end of the book, but it's gonna get worse. Jansen, her little brother, has been struggling this whole time. He tried to be an actor for a while. He got really mad at Hayden, was like, why aren't you making me famous? Other siblings make them famous. She then realizes he just wants fame because he wants to have love and attention the way she has. But maybe he doesn't really want to be an actor. He hangs out with her and Brian when she's in this very violent relationship. He really likes Brian. At one point, she tries to reunite with her family, and she can't go visit them because she's newly sober and finds out that Jansen just physically hit her mom, or, in his words, did a Krav maga move. And she is like, I'm newly sober. I can't do this. And her mom says, I support you, which is a nice sentence in the book. And then Jansen dies, and Janssen dies seated in a chair in his house. And again, she never says what the cause of it is. And again, it's been reported that he died due to an enlarged heart and aortic complications. And that's the end of the book.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

There is no this is me now. There's no Onward. There's no. And every day, I'm trying to put my life together. What I think is the truth is that I am in the middle of trying to stay sober, and everything is day by day, and I probably just finished the 12 steps program. That's how this book reads me. That's not what's said, though. It's literally like, my brother is dead. The end. And a part of me is, like, very happy. She's not gonna do what often comes across as very fake, which is, like.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And everything's great guys. Shiny bow. There's my celebrity memoir. And the other half of me is like, why the hell is this top titled this is me? Yeah, why is this titled this is me?

[C]

I'm wondering if too if she, if she's thinking like, I don't know, this is me back then this is who you thought I was, but this is actually who I am.

[B]

Which again I we're kind of listening titles of JLO series now. But I do think that would be a better title. When the book ended, I said, this cannot be how it ends. Like, you cannot also like, it felt like a. It felt like being punched in the face as a reader because you're just left hanging off a cliff looking into misery. And we're going to wrap up the podcast but I just want to read a couple things because I had to go find answers for myself online. At the end of the book, she talks about how radical acceptance has changed her life, which to me reads very AA 12 steps. Her mother went to page 6 after this book came out out. And she's very kind to her mom in this book. One of my notes was, you are too kind to your mom in this book. Yeah, her mom's quote about Hayden in page 6 as of last week is quote, this personality style does not accept responsibility for life choices and therefore feels they have no need to alter their behavior. This personality style is what she's using instead of my daughter Hayden. After 20 years of trauma, I took the advice of professionals and chose the no contact with route. As many parents of entertainment children know, we are all too familiar with the painful observation of watching the self destructive paths they sometimes choose. No parent hopes for this scenario. We want our children to be the best of themselves and live a peaceful, joyful life. Exclamation point. Sadly, this is out of our control. You cannot save someone who does not want to be saved. Radical acceptance is the most difficult challenge any parent must embrace. Unfortunately, I've seen a lot in my life life experience and she's basically like, I don't talk to my daughter and she's a selfish. I choose radical acceptance. This book is trash.

[C]

The woman who demanded perfection from a four year old for acting. The woman who was like that wasn't good enough. Do it again. You need to learn how to cry on cue. You have to absorb everyone else's emotions so you can be better in this scene said, oh, okay, that's great Hayden. To me it feels like Hayden is taking a little bit of responsibility of what is happening.

[B]

Like yeah, and her mom takes none.

[C]

Takes none.

[B]

I think it's also interesting how they both referenced radical acceptance in. I think I just, I keep thinking about that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because that should be a beautiful concept. And it might really be helping Hayden right now. But then her mom is referencing it and using it almost as a weapon.

[C]

Have you heard of the phrase love the sinner, not the sin? That's giving that to me. Yeah, in a way, in the sense of, like, I'm going to accept. Right. Like, but it's like, you're still not actually giving.

[B]

Let them by Mel Robbins.

[C]

Yes. That's a better.

[B]

That's better. Like, it's not giving. True. What radical acceptance was.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

When people talk about how this was be helpful in life, it's. That's not what it feels like.

[C]

Right.

[B]

It's. It feels like that happened anyways.

[C]

Because there's a point where you have to accept, like when you're. It's like, oh, I'm up. And a lot of it I can absolutely blame my parents for. Yeah, we'll go to therapy. But at that point, it is now your responsibility. Like, the planning of the parents ends at your realization that your parents. You up and then you move on to, to heal.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, she.

[B]

And she's so kind to both her parents in this where I don't have any kindness for her mom. Her mom was nothing but cruel. In the press, Hayden has said she's left the door open to her mom and her mom says she doesn't want to talk to her and then think of her mom. You raised this and you saw what happened to Hayden and you lost your son, and this is how you're speaking about your child.

[C]

I.

[B]

It's pretty devastating, I think. Let's do the book Dull Test. First question. We're laughing because we're in pain.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

First question. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?

[C]

I think she was. She shared stuff that I was like, girl, you could still end up up in custody court. Like, why are you putting this in paper? Yeah. Use that against you in a court of law. But. But I do think that that was what she needed to do.

[B]

And I, I completely agree. And she said it in the press and it is the tagline of the book, a Reckoning. And I do think she needed to own this part of her life to begin to move on.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think. And I think that's what we're watching now with her. She's going to begin to try and live life now that she's been able to advance, admit, not admit, like you did it. But like, when you go through childhood trauma, saying it out loud is hard is one of the hardest parts. Yeah. Okay, second question. Was it entertaining to read?

[C]

I mean, yes, I like rage read it and then I cried in some chapters.

[B]

Like, yeah, like entertaining feels like a gross word to use. But I also, I found the beginning very boring and I found the second half extremely. I couldn't put it down.

[C]

Yes, same. Exactly the same same. And like I said at the top too, reminded me that empathy and grace when it comes to addiction is. And boundaries, because that's the huge part of it is boundaries. But like, understand. Like, there's a lot of things that I saw with the way that people were treating her that I was like, I just feel like you're contributing to this getting worse. Not that I'm saying it's other people's responsibility. Addiction is a beast. Right? It's not an easy thing to live with. It's not an easy thing to be on the, the, you know, the receiving side of if you're the person living with someone with addiction. Like, it is not a simple packaged thing that is easy to deal with. And then coupled with anything else. Like with, for her it was postpartum depression. It just reminded me that like, we don't do a good job in our society and culture with knowing and understanding how to deal with one, mental health, specifically with women, and then two, just addiction and what that looks like and how we can provide support that is going to be long lasting. So you know that everyone can get through, through every single day, like day by day.

[B]

Such a good point. And I'm just underlining what you said by adding postpartum and new mothers. We really do not know how to deal with a young mom's or a new mom's mental health in a way that there should be so much more information and awareness out there. Did this book elevate your life in any way?

[C]

Yes, because she comments in the book about her emotional connection with Kya in the beginning and how she, she didn't feel connected to the baby. And just like, you know this idea that you're supposed to be instantly connected like that they pulled a human out of your body and now you're bonded. Isn't it beautiful? And she really struggled with that. She didn't feel that connection. And there's a lot of shame that we put on women for feeling that way because it is represented in pop culture in a lot of ways of like you that that's it. I Knew it. My bonded, my heart, blah, blah. We don't. Again, back to the grace. We don't have the grace for women who struggle with that connection immediately. And maybe it is postpartum that gets in the way and. But maybe it's just, you know, whatever it is.

[B]

She'd also just had a traumatic. Traumatic experience where she almost died.

[C]

Yes. Which is not uncommon. Unfortunately. When I was reading that story, it's like, yeah, I know five women who have that exact. A similar story. So reading that just was really valid for me because I also had a similar experience of like, I didn't. I was like, that baby is cute. Let me hold him. Yes, I love him. And also.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it wasn't until I was. I had a job with the department head woman of two boys. We were having a conversation and I felt comfortable enough to open up to her. We were talking about motherhood journey, and I said, you know, I didn't really bond with my kid right away. And she's like, neither did I. And I was like, oh, my God, now you and I are bonded forever because we shared this. But it was a scary thing.

[B]

Something that you should be able to talk about exactly. Constantly and have tons of references for and instead put into a shameful corner, which only makes the feeling worse.

[C]

So I really appreciate that she was so open and honest about that and that elevated me to be like, yeah, this is real.

[B]

Also, I really appreciate you sharing it here for anyone who I know there's someone listening who needed to hear that. So, like, to you and Hayden, like, like, thank you to any woman who speaks about this because it's so odd to have shame put on an experience as if there's only one way to be a mom.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And a correct way. Correct way. What a beautiful answer. Julia, thank you so much for sharing. I think I'm a no on this book, but I am so, so moved by what you shared and I just have so much love for Hayden and I'm just so rooting for her and her career from now on on. And I hope we will see everyone in the Patreon comments. There's a lot to discuss. Julia, you're such a fabulous discussion partner. And also you can get Julia's candles by signing up on her Patreon. You get a candle every month or you can just buy the candles one off, but they are fabulous. Julia, anything you want to say as we leave this saga?

[C]

Oh, gosh, no. Thank you for having me back. I felt like reading her book. I was like, minus the entertainment okay. Because that is not my life, obviously, but young mom court stat. I was like, we need to have more conversations around that. So I really appreciate that this, even though this was a journey, I'm so

[B]

glad you were the guest and can speak to that. And Julia, please come back every month and we'll see you in the comments. A big thank you to our senior, your managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Dominique Banas. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and Quince. We will link those incredible brands in the show notes, so go check them out. Everything is always linked in the show notes on Apple. There's also transcripts. And if you ever have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.

[C]

SA.